Re: [Finale] Spacing issue for dotted rest

[Jan Angermüller]

There are other known spacing issues with the Jazz font as well. For 
example the symbols 67 and 99 ("common/cut time with bracket") have the 
same advance width as the symbols without brackets (68/100) although 
they are twice as wide. So when using the 67/99 symbols you might run 
into note collisions that don't show up when using 68/100.

If you're looking for the JazzText Extended font with a working è, you 
could also try the free installation of OnlineSheetMusic viewer ( 
http://www.onlinesheetmusic.com/download.aspx ). When I downloaded it a 
few months ago, all jazz fonts were installed- and the è was available. 
But be careful: it might overwrite the existing jazz font installations.

Jan


Am 28.07.2016 um 15:07 schrieb Christopher Smith:
> In old versions of Finale, the rests show dots correctly. This broke 
> approximately at the same time that linked parts were introduced. I 
> complained immediately, and was told to move them all with the Special Tool.
>
> They are blowing smoke if they claim that this is working as designed. It was 
> acknowledged when I first reported it, then complained a couple years later 
> that it still wasn’t fixed. They broke it, either inside Finale or with 
> changes they made to the JazzFont (they removed è, that’s an e with an accent 
> grave, at the same time.)
>
> Christopher
>
>
>> On Jul 27, 2016, at 4:49 PM, Girard Bowe  wrote:
>>
>>
>> Here is the latest response from MakeMusic regarding my complaint about the 
>> eighth rest dot spacing in JazzFont:
>>
>> "At the risk of going into semantics, bug fixes are defined as the software 
>> not operating as designed. The augmentation dots appear next to notes and 
>> rests at a distance that is defined in the settings - this works exactly as 
>> designed. Your request is to add functionality that allows this distance to 
>> be set differently for rests than it is for notes."
>>
>> JW Change has the ability to do this, but it is cumbersome, and I have 
>> forgotten how to use it. I'm hoping someone else will request this "feature" 
>> and that someone will remember the JW Change workaround so that I won't have 
>> to change each instance individually.
>>
>> After making this complaint for several years to MakeMusic, this is the 
>> first cogent response I've received from them. Now I know the spacing issue 
>> is not a bug!
>>
>> Thanks for sharing my misery!
>>
>> GizB
>> Richmond VA
>>
>> PS - maybe we can get them to provide a JazzFont "Z" that doesn't look like 
>> a 2.
>>
>>
>> > 1.jpg>___
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>>
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Re: [Finale] Spacing issue for dotted rest

[Christopher Smith]

In old versions of Finale, the rests show dots correctly. This broke 
approximately at the same time that linked parts were introduced. I complained 
immediately, and was told to move them all with the Special Tool.

They are blowing smoke if they claim that this is working as designed. It was 
acknowledged when I first reported it, then complained a couple years later 
that it still wasn’t fixed. They broke it, either inside Finale or with changes 
they made to the JazzFont (they removed è, that’s an e with an accent grave, at 
the same time.)

Christopher


> On Jul 27, 2016, at 4:49 PM, Girard Bowe  wrote:
> 
> 
> Here is the latest response from MakeMusic regarding my complaint about the 
> eighth rest dot spacing in JazzFont:
> 
> "At the risk of going into semantics, bug fixes are defined as the software 
> not operating as designed. The augmentation dots appear next to notes and 
> rests at a distance that is defined in the settings - this works exactly as 
> designed. Your request is to add functionality that allows this distance to 
> be set differently for rests than it is for notes."
> 
> JW Change has the ability to do this, but it is cumbersome, and I have 
> forgotten how to use it. I'm hoping someone else will request this "feature" 
> and that someone will remember the JW Change workaround so that I won't have 
> to change each instance individually.
> 
> After making this complaint for several years to MakeMusic, this is the first 
> cogent response I've received from them. Now I know the spacing issue is not 
> a bug!
> 
> Thanks for sharing my misery!
> 
> GizB
> Richmond VA
> 
> PS - maybe we can get them to provide a JazzFont "Z" that doesn't look like a 
> 2.
> 
> 
>  1.jpg>___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> 
> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu


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[Finale] Spacing issue for dotted rest

[Girard Bowe]

Here is the latest response from MakeMusic regarding my complaint about the 
eighth rest dot spacing in JazzFont:

"At the risk of going into semantics, bug fixes are defined as the software not 
operating as designed. The augmentation dots appear next to notes and rests at 
a distance that is defined in the settings - this works exactly as designed. 
Your request is to add functionality that allows this distance to be set 
differently for rests than it is for notes."

JW Change has the ability to do this, but it is cumbersome, and I have 
forgotten how to use it. I'm hoping someone else will request this "feature" 
and that someone will remember the JW Change workaround so that I won't have to 
change each instance individually.

After making this complaint for several years to MakeMusic, this is the first 
cogent response I've received from them. Now I know the spacing issue is not a 
bug!

Thanks for sharing my misery!

GizB
Richmond VA

PS - maybe we can get them to provide a JazzFont "Z" that doesn't look like a 2.


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Re: [Finale] Spacing option for leger lines?

[Darcy James Argue]

Hi Robert,

In case you're taking requests — is there any way the plugin could 
automatically tighten the space between ledger lines on reduced-note size 
passages, like cues? Currently, Finale spaces cues as if they have full-sized 
ledger lines, which is obviously extremely tedious to correct manually.

Cheers,

- DJA
-
WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org

On Aug 1, 2015, at 3:35 PM, Robert Patterson rob...@robertgpatterson.com 
wrote:

 Update: I've prototyped the leger line solution and it works perfectly in a
 plugin. No muss no fuss.
 
 On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 1:19 PM, Fiskum, Steve fisk...@jspaluch.com wrote:
 
 Let me see if I can figure something out.
 
 Thanks,
 Steve
 
 
 
 On Aug 1, 2015, at 1:17 PM, Robert Patterson 
 rob...@robertgpatterson.com wrote:
 
 Steve: If you can figure out how to get Finale to do it, I may be able to
 automated it. What will happen with the leger lines (if it works) is that
 it will alter the leger line lengths under the covers run Finale's note
 spacing option, then revert the leger line lengths. My plugin uses Finale
 to do the note spacing: I could never reinvent that wheel.
 
 On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 1:12 PM, Fiskum, Steve fisk...@jspaluch.com
 wrote:
 
 Sounds like a great solution. Any possibility of adding flagged notes,
 whether up stem or down stem to this plugin? I want to control the
 distance
 between notes either + or - if the note has a flag. It would be the
 distance following the flagged note. This would mean not only distance
 between notes but also flag and barline. This would be a huge leap for
 music spacing along with ledger lines. My two most biggest issues with
 music spacing in its current form.
 
 Thanks,
 Steve
 
 
 
 On Aug 1, 2015, at 1:04 PM, Robert Patterson 
 rob...@robertgpatterson.com wrote:
 
 jef's solution is perfect. (i tried it.) now if i can just bake it into
 my
 Note Spacing plugin it will be brainless and automatic.
 
 On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Fiskum, Steve fisk...@jspaluch.com
 wrote:
 
 Mark said, Of course, this alters the distance between other items
 too.
 
 This is THE problem Mark.
 
 Thanks,
 Steve
 
 
 
 On Aug 1, 2015, at 12:58 PM, Mark Adler mad...@makemusic.com
 wrote:
 
 You can change this is by altering Minimum Distance Between Objects
 in
 Doc. Opts. Of course, this alters the distance between other items
 too,
 so
 may not really be the best solution. Here are a couple of screen
 shots,
 one
 with the minimum distance set to 24 evpus and one set to 0 evpus.
 [image: Inline image 2][image: Inline image 1]
 
 
 -- Forwarded message --
 From: Robert Patterson rob...@robertgpatterson.com
 To: finale finale@shsu.edu
 Cc:
 Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 11:37:53 -0500
 Subject: [Finale] Spacing option for leger lines?
 Is there any way to control how much space Finale allots between
 leger
 lines? The gap that it is currently leaving is too wide, and no
 setting
 seems to change it. Obviously I could turn off leger lines in the
 avoid
 collisions option, but then they...well…collide.
 0 EVPU.png
 24 EVPU.png
 ___
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 https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
 
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Cheers,

- DJA
-
WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org


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Re: [Finale] Spacing option for leger lines?

[Darcy James Argue]

Hi Robert,

In case you're taking requests — is there any way the plugin could 
automatically tighten the space between ledger lines on reduced-note size 
passages, like cues? Currently, Finale spaces cues as if they have full-sized 
ledger lines, which is obviously extremely tedious to correct manually.

Cheers,

- DJA
-
WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org

On Aug 1, 2015, at 3:35 PM, Robert Patterson rob...@robertgpatterson.com 
wrote:

 Update: I've prototyped the leger line solution and it works perfectly in a
 plugin. No muss no fuss.
 
 On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 1:19 PM, Fiskum, Steve fisk...@jspaluch.com wrote:
 
 Let me see if I can figure something out.
 
 Thanks,
 Steve
 
 
 
 On Aug 1, 2015, at 1:17 PM, Robert Patterson 
 rob...@robertgpatterson.com wrote:
 
 Steve: If you can figure out how to get Finale to do it, I may be able to
 automated it. What will happen with the leger lines (if it works) is that
 it will alter the leger line lengths under the covers run Finale's note
 spacing option, then revert the leger line lengths. My plugin uses Finale
 to do the note spacing: I could never reinvent that wheel.
 
 On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 1:12 PM, Fiskum, Steve fisk...@jspaluch.com
 wrote:
 
 Sounds like a great solution. Any possibility of adding flagged notes,
 whether up stem or down stem to this plugin? I want to control the
 distance
 between notes either + or - if the note has a flag. It would be the
 distance following the flagged note. This would mean not only distance
 between notes but also flag and barline. This would be a huge leap for
 music spacing along with ledger lines. My two most biggest issues with
 music spacing in its current form.
 
 Thanks,
 Steve
 
 
 
 On Aug 1, 2015, at 1:04 PM, Robert Patterson 
 rob...@robertgpatterson.com wrote:
 
 jef's solution is perfect. (i tried it.) now if i can just bake it into
 my
 Note Spacing plugin it will be brainless and automatic.
 
 On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Fiskum, Steve fisk...@jspaluch.com
 wrote:
 
 Mark said, Of course, this alters the distance between other items
 too.
 
 This is THE problem Mark.
 
 Thanks,
 Steve
 
 
 
 On Aug 1, 2015, at 12:58 PM, Mark Adler mad...@makemusic.com
 wrote:
 
 You can change this is by altering Minimum Distance Between Objects
 in
 Doc. Opts. Of course, this alters the distance between other items
 too,
 so
 may not really be the best solution. Here are a couple of screen
 shots,
 one
 with the minimum distance set to 24 evpus and one set to 0 evpus.
 [image: Inline image 2][image: Inline image 1]
 
 
 -- Forwarded message --
 From: Robert Patterson rob...@robertgpatterson.com
 To: finale finale@shsu.edu
 Cc:
 Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 11:37:53 -0500
 Subject: [Finale] Spacing option for leger lines?
 Is there any way to control how much space Finale allots between
 leger
 lines? The gap that it is currently leaving is too wide, and no
 setting
 seems to change it. Obviously I could turn off leger lines in the
 avoid
 collisions option, but then they...well…collide.
 0 EVPU.png
 24 EVPU.png
 ___
 Finale mailing list
 Finale@shsu.edu
 https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
 
 To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
 finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
 
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Re: [Finale] Spacing option for leger lines?

[Fiskum, Steve]

Sounds like a great solution. Any possibility of adding flagged notes, whether 
up stem or down stem to this plugin? I want to control the distance between 
notes either + or - if the note has a flag. It would be the distance following 
the flagged note. This would mean not only distance between notes but also flag 
and barline. This would be a huge leap for music spacing along with ledger 
lines. My two most biggest issues with music spacing in its current form. 

Thanks,
Steve



 On Aug 1, 2015, at 1:04 PM, Robert Patterson rob...@robertgpatterson.com 
 wrote:
 
 jef's solution is perfect. (i tried it.) now if i can just bake it into my
 Note Spacing plugin it will be brainless and automatic.
 
 On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Fiskum, Steve fisk...@jspaluch.com wrote:
 
 Mark said, Of course, this alters the distance between other items too.
 
 This is THE problem Mark.
 
 Thanks,
 Steve
 
 
 
 On Aug 1, 2015, at 12:58 PM, Mark Adler mad...@makemusic.com wrote:
 
 You can change this is by altering Minimum Distance Between Objects in
 Doc. Opts. Of course, this alters the distance between other items too,
 so
 may not really be the best solution. Here are a couple of screen shots,
 one
 with the minimum distance set to 24 evpus and one set to 0 evpus.
 [image: Inline image 2][image: Inline image 1]
 
 
 -- Forwarded message --
 From: Robert Patterson rob...@robertgpatterson.com
 To: finale finale@shsu.edu
 Cc:
 Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 11:37:53 -0500
 Subject: [Finale] Spacing option for leger lines?
 Is there any way to control how much space Finale allots between leger
 lines? The gap that it is currently leaving is too wide, and no setting
 seems to change it. Obviously I could turn off leger lines in the avoid
 collisions option, but then they...well…collide.
 0 EVPU.png
 24 EVPU.png
 ___
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 https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
 
 To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
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Re: [Finale] Spacing option for leger lines?

[Fiskum, Steve]

Unfortunately, no. I've asked for this option for years. Chime in if you want 
to see the addition. 

Steve



 On Aug 1, 2015, at 11:37 AM, Robert Patterson rob...@robertgpatterson.com 
 wrote:
 
 Is there any way to control how much space Finale allots between leger
 lines? The gap that it is currently leaving is too wide, and no setting
 seems to change it. Obviously I could turn off leger lines in the avoid
 collisions option, but then they...well...collide.
 ___
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 https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
 
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Re: [Finale] Spacing option for leger lines?

[shirl...@newmusicnotation.com]

 
you could try setting the line width shorter by 2 EVPU until the final spacing
and layout has been done, then set it back and adjust the (hopefully very) few
beat charts that didn't quite work as you wanted.
 
 
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Re: [Finale] Spacing option for leger lines?

[Robert Patterson]

jef's solution is perfect. (i tried it.) now if i can just bake it into my
Note Spacing plugin it will be brainless and automatic.

On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Fiskum, Steve fisk...@jspaluch.com wrote:

 Mark said, Of course, this alters the distance between other items too.

 This is THE problem Mark.

 Thanks,
 Steve



  On Aug 1, 2015, at 12:58 PM, Mark Adler mad...@makemusic.com wrote:
 
  You can change this is by altering Minimum Distance Between Objects in
  Doc. Opts. Of course, this alters the distance between other items too,
 so
  may not really be the best solution. Here are a couple of screen shots,
 one
  with the minimum distance set to 24 evpus and one set to 0 evpus.
  [image: Inline image 2][image: Inline image 1]
 
 
  -- Forwarded message --
  From: Robert Patterson rob...@robertgpatterson.com
  To: finale finale@shsu.edu
  Cc:
  Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 11:37:53 -0500
  Subject: [Finale] Spacing option for leger lines?
  Is there any way to control how much space Finale allots between leger
  lines? The gap that it is currently leaving is too wide, and no setting
  seems to change it. Obviously I could turn off leger lines in the avoid
  collisions option, but then they...well…collide.
  0 EVPU.png
  24 EVPU.png
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  https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
 
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Re: [Finale] Spacing option for leger lines?

[Fiskum, Steve]

Let me see if I can figure something out. 

Thanks,
Steve



 On Aug 1, 2015, at 1:17 PM, Robert Patterson rob...@robertgpatterson.com 
 wrote:
 
 Steve: If you can figure out how to get Finale to do it, I may be able to
 automated it. What will happen with the leger lines (if it works) is that
 it will alter the leger line lengths under the covers run Finale's note
 spacing option, then revert the leger line lengths. My plugin uses Finale
 to do the note spacing: I could never reinvent that wheel.
 
 On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 1:12 PM, Fiskum, Steve fisk...@jspaluch.com wrote:
 
 Sounds like a great solution. Any possibility of adding flagged notes,
 whether up stem or down stem to this plugin? I want to control the distance
 between notes either + or - if the note has a flag. It would be the
 distance following the flagged note. This would mean not only distance
 between notes but also flag and barline. This would be a huge leap for
 music spacing along with ledger lines. My two most biggest issues with
 music spacing in its current form.
 
 Thanks,
 Steve
 
 
 
 On Aug 1, 2015, at 1:04 PM, Robert Patterson 
 rob...@robertgpatterson.com wrote:
 
 jef's solution is perfect. (i tried it.) now if i can just bake it into
 my
 Note Spacing plugin it will be brainless and automatic.
 
 On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Fiskum, Steve fisk...@jspaluch.com
 wrote:
 
 Mark said, Of course, this alters the distance between other items
 too.
 
 This is THE problem Mark.
 
 Thanks,
 Steve
 
 
 
 On Aug 1, 2015, at 12:58 PM, Mark Adler mad...@makemusic.com wrote:
 
 You can change this is by altering Minimum Distance Between Objects
 in
 Doc. Opts. Of course, this alters the distance between other items too,
 so
 may not really be the best solution. Here are a couple of screen shots,
 one
 with the minimum distance set to 24 evpus and one set to 0 evpus.
 [image: Inline image 2][image: Inline image 1]
 
 
 -- Forwarded message --
 From: Robert Patterson rob...@robertgpatterson.com
 To: finale finale@shsu.edu
 Cc:
 Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 11:37:53 -0500
 Subject: [Finale] Spacing option for leger lines?
 Is there any way to control how much space Finale allots between leger
 lines? The gap that it is currently leaving is too wide, and no setting
 seems to change it. Obviously I could turn off leger lines in the avoid
 collisions option, but then they...well…collide.
 0 EVPU.png
 24 EVPU.png
 ___
 Finale mailing list
 Finale@shsu.edu
 https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
 
 To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
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[Finale] Spacing option for leger lines?

[Robert Patterson]

Is there any way to control how much space Finale allots between leger
lines? The gap that it is currently leaving is too wide, and no setting
seems to change it. Obviously I could turn off leger lines in the avoid
collisions option, but then they...well...collide.
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Re: [Finale] Spacing option for leger lines?

[Robert Patterson]

p.s. if plugins have access to leger line length. i'll have to research
that.

On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 12:13 PM, Robert Patterson 
rob...@robertgpatterson.com wrote:

 jef you're a genius. that's a feature i'm adding to my note spacing plugin!

 On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 12:05 PM, shirl...@newmusicnotation.com 
 shirl...@newmusicnotation.com wrote:


 you could try setting the line width shorter by 2 EVPU until the final
 spacing
 and layout has been done, then set it back and adjust the (hopefully
 very) few
 beat charts that didn't quite work as you wanted.


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Re: [Finale] Spacing option for leger lines?

[Fiskum, Steve]

Mark said, Of course, this alters the distance between other items too.

This is THE problem Mark. 

Thanks,
Steve



 On Aug 1, 2015, at 12:58 PM, Mark Adler mad...@makemusic.com wrote:
 
 You can change this is by altering Minimum Distance Between Objects in
 Doc. Opts. Of course, this alters the distance between other items too, so
 may not really be the best solution. Here are a couple of screen shots, one
 with the minimum distance set to 24 evpus and one set to 0 evpus.
 [image: Inline image 2][image: Inline image 1]
 
 
 -- Forwarded message --
 From: Robert Patterson rob...@robertgpatterson.com
 To: finale finale@shsu.edu
 Cc:
 Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 11:37:53 -0500
 Subject: [Finale] Spacing option for leger lines?
 Is there any way to control how much space Finale allots between leger
 lines? The gap that it is currently leaving is too wide, and no setting
 seems to change it. Obviously I could turn off leger lines in the avoid
 collisions option, but then they...well…collide.
 0 EVPU.png
 24 EVPU.png
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Re: [Finale] Spacing option for leger lines?

[Robert Patterson]

Steve: If you can figure out how to get Finale to do it, I may be able to
automated it. What will happen with the leger lines (if it works) is that
it will alter the leger line lengths under the covers run Finale's note
spacing option, then revert the leger line lengths. My plugin uses Finale
to do the note spacing: I could never reinvent that wheel.

On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 1:12 PM, Fiskum, Steve fisk...@jspaluch.com wrote:

 Sounds like a great solution. Any possibility of adding flagged notes,
 whether up stem or down stem to this plugin? I want to control the distance
 between notes either + or - if the note has a flag. It would be the
 distance following the flagged note. This would mean not only distance
 between notes but also flag and barline. This would be a huge leap for
 music spacing along with ledger lines. My two most biggest issues with
 music spacing in its current form.

 Thanks,
 Steve



  On Aug 1, 2015, at 1:04 PM, Robert Patterson 
 rob...@robertgpatterson.com wrote:
 
  jef's solution is perfect. (i tried it.) now if i can just bake it into
 my
  Note Spacing plugin it will be brainless and automatic.
 
  On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Fiskum, Steve fisk...@jspaluch.com
 wrote:
 
  Mark said, Of course, this alters the distance between other items
 too.
 
  This is THE problem Mark.
 
  Thanks,
  Steve
 
 
 
  On Aug 1, 2015, at 12:58 PM, Mark Adler mad...@makemusic.com wrote:
 
  You can change this is by altering Minimum Distance Between Objects
 in
  Doc. Opts. Of course, this alters the distance between other items too,
  so
  may not really be the best solution. Here are a couple of screen shots,
  one
  with the minimum distance set to 24 evpus and one set to 0 evpus.
  [image: Inline image 2][image: Inline image 1]
 
 
  -- Forwarded message --
  From: Robert Patterson rob...@robertgpatterson.com
  To: finale finale@shsu.edu
  Cc:
  Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 11:37:53 -0500
  Subject: [Finale] Spacing option for leger lines?
  Is there any way to control how much space Finale allots between leger
  lines? The gap that it is currently leaving is too wide, and no setting
  seems to change it. Obviously I could turn off leger lines in the avoid
  collisions option, but then they...well…collide.
  0 EVPU.png
  24 EVPU.png
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Re: [Finale] Spacing option for leger lines?

[Robert Patterson]

Update: I've prototyped the leger line solution and it works perfectly in a
plugin. No muss no fuss.

On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 1:19 PM, Fiskum, Steve fisk...@jspaluch.com wrote:

 Let me see if I can figure something out.

 Thanks,
 Steve



  On Aug 1, 2015, at 1:17 PM, Robert Patterson 
 rob...@robertgpatterson.com wrote:
 
  Steve: If you can figure out how to get Finale to do it, I may be able to
  automated it. What will happen with the leger lines (if it works) is that
  it will alter the leger line lengths under the covers run Finale's note
  spacing option, then revert the leger line lengths. My plugin uses Finale
  to do the note spacing: I could never reinvent that wheel.
 
  On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 1:12 PM, Fiskum, Steve fisk...@jspaluch.com
 wrote:
 
  Sounds like a great solution. Any possibility of adding flagged notes,
  whether up stem or down stem to this plugin? I want to control the
 distance
  between notes either + or - if the note has a flag. It would be the
  distance following the flagged note. This would mean not only distance
  between notes but also flag and barline. This would be a huge leap for
  music spacing along with ledger lines. My two most biggest issues with
  music spacing in its current form.
 
  Thanks,
  Steve
 
 
 
  On Aug 1, 2015, at 1:04 PM, Robert Patterson 
  rob...@robertgpatterson.com wrote:
 
  jef's solution is perfect. (i tried it.) now if i can just bake it into
  my
  Note Spacing plugin it will be brainless and automatic.
 
  On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Fiskum, Steve fisk...@jspaluch.com
  wrote:
 
  Mark said, Of course, this alters the distance between other items
  too.
 
  This is THE problem Mark.
 
  Thanks,
  Steve
 
 
 
  On Aug 1, 2015, at 12:58 PM, Mark Adler mad...@makemusic.com
 wrote:
 
  You can change this is by altering Minimum Distance Between Objects
  in
  Doc. Opts. Of course, this alters the distance between other items
 too,
  so
  may not really be the best solution. Here are a couple of screen
 shots,
  one
  with the minimum distance set to 24 evpus and one set to 0 evpus.
  [image: Inline image 2][image: Inline image 1]
 
 
  -- Forwarded message --
  From: Robert Patterson rob...@robertgpatterson.com
  To: finale finale@shsu.edu
  Cc:
  Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 11:37:53 -0500
  Subject: [Finale] Spacing option for leger lines?
  Is there any way to control how much space Finale allots between
 leger
  lines? The gap that it is currently leaving is too wide, and no
 setting
  seems to change it. Obviously I could turn off leger lines in the
 avoid
  collisions option, but then they...well…collide.
  0 EVPU.png
  24 EVPU.png
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  To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
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[Finale] spacing in linked parts

[Ryan]

Fin 2012c, Mac Mavericks

The spacing is wonky in linked parts with specified voicing defined to
display layer 2 when more than one layer is present. Does anyone else have
this same problem? Any solution?

The note spacing is fine when notes from Layer 1 are displaying.

Ryan
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[Finale] spacing bug?

[Ryan]

Finale 2012a
MacOS 10.5.8

Can anyone else recreate this?

In 3/2, 6/4, or 12/8 time, put in a dotted whole note. In another layer,
force a whole rest (speedy entry 7).
Space the measure.
I get extra space added to the front of the measure. If I remove the forced
whole rest, it is spaced normally. If I change the dotted whole note to any
other note value and/or rhythmic combination, it is spaced normally. If I
change the forced whole rest to other rest values, it is spaced normally.
I get this bad spacing no matter which layer the notes are entered in.
This seems to only happen when there's a dotted whole note on the first
beat in conjunction with a forced whole rest. If you use a whole rest and
fill the rest of the measure with rests, it doesn't happen. But, filling
the other voice with more than a whole rest isn't standard, so I'd like to
avoid it.

(I get this in larger time signatures like 9/4, 12/4, etc.)

Finale Tech support claims not to get this bug. They recommended I trash
preferences and restart. The same behavior still happens.

This also happens in my version of 2010 and 2008.
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Re: [Finale] spacing bug?

[Raymond Horton]

WinFin 2011.r2

It behaves exactly as you describe.

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com



On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 2:21 PM, Ryan ry.squa...@gmail.com wrote:
 Finale 2012a
 MacOS 10.5.8

 Can anyone else recreate this?

 In 3/2, 6/4, or 12/8 time, put in a dotted whole note. In another layer,
 force a whole rest (speedy entry 7).
 Space the measure.
 I get extra space added to the front of the measure. If I remove the forced
 whole rest, it is spaced normally. If I change the dotted whole note to any
 other note value and/or rhythmic combination, it is spaced normally. If I
 change the forced whole rest to other rest values, it is spaced normally.
 I get this bad spacing no matter which layer the notes are entered in.
 This seems to only happen when there's a dotted whole note on the first
 beat in conjunction with a forced whole rest. If you use a whole rest and
 fill the rest of the measure with rests, it doesn't happen. But, filling
 the other voice with more than a whole rest isn't standard, so I'd like to
 avoid it.

 (I get this in larger time signatures like 9/4, 12/4, etc.)

 Finale Tech support claims not to get this bug. They recommended I trash
 preferences and restart. The same behavior still happens.

 This also happens in my version of 2010 and 2008.
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Re: [Finale] Spacing Problem in Linked Parts

[SN jef chippewa]

i find it best to set them perfectly in the parts and accept how they 
look in the score.  since the grace notes are fixed (not 
proportional) distance from the note they belong to, in general they 
spacing in relation to the main note should be acceptably close in 
MOST cases.

you can also slightly adjust manual positioning to accommodate any 
collisions caused by pitch changes in transposing instruments.

in speedy opt-click (mac) on the measure in question and you can set 
the individual grace notes to NOT be affected by music spacing.  then 
run music spacing and adjust manual positioning and then beat charts 
(measure tool) as needed in SC/PT to give space for the grace notes.

--

another possibility if the score is for a solo instrument, if you 
really want to get geeky, is to make the grace notes as hidden 
tuplets (real notes), reduced to same percentage as the grace notes. 
this requires then changing time sigs (more choices: use different 
time sig).  it is a little time-consuming but gives you massive 
control over positioning and music spacing.

stupid kludge but it works.

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Re: [Finale] Spacing Problem in Linked Parts

[Darcy James Argue]

Hi Jef,

If you are using *voiced* linked parts (multiple parts/staff), grace note 
spacing cannot be adjusted in the parts. That is the longstanding bug we are 
complaining about. 

Cheers,

- DJA
-
WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org



On 28 Jul 2011, at 5:16 AM, SN jef chippewa wrote:

 i find it best to set them perfectly in the parts and accept how they 
 look in the score.


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Re: [Finale] Spacing Problem in Linked Parts

[SN jef chippewa]

yep, we're talking about the same thing: you can in fact adjust it in 
the PT, but the grace notes remain linked (i.e. will also move in the 
SC), i'm just saying sometimes the positioning discrepancy is not so 
critical.  using the opt-click on the measure trick i mentioned will 
avoid having the grace notes respeced by music spacing once set as 
you want them.

If you are using *voiced* linked parts (multiple parts/staff), grace 
note spacing cannot be adjusted in the parts. That is the 
longstanding bug we are complaining about.

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Re: [Finale] Spacing Problem in Linked Parts

[Darcy James Argue]

Hi Jef,

Adjust it how? Special tools and Speedy are disabled in *voiced* linked parts. 
Try it and see.

Cheers,

- DJA
-
WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org



On 28 Jul 2011, at 9:46 AM, SN jef chippewa wrote:

 you can in fact adjust it in 
 the PT


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Re: [Finale] Spacing Problem in Linked Parts

[SN jef chippewa]

just tried voices (which i almost never use) and it works.  i 
adjusted the grace notes (special tools) in two separate voices (not 
layers) independently from within the PT (F2010)
http://newmusicnotation.com/TEMPFILES/grace_voices.pdf

Adjust it how? Special tools and Speedy are disabled in *voiced* 
linked parts. Try it and see.

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Re: [Finale] Spacing Problem in Linked Parts

[Darcy James Argue]

Jef,

You are still not understanding. I think it's likely that you've never tried 
the specific thing we are talking about. I'm assuming it must not come up in 
your work.

We aren't talking about voices. Or layers.

We are talking about *voiced* linked parts -- i.e., 1 staff, two parts. For 
example, you might have Fl. 1 + Fl. 2 on the same staff in the score, but 
separate Fl. 1 and Fl. 2 parts (one for each player).

Since the advent of linked parts, this can be done *without exploding* onto 
separate staves.

Voiced linked parts are set up via the Specify Voicing checkbox in the Manage 
Parts dialog. There's more info on this in documentation under the heading 
Part Voicing.

For the most part, voiced linked parts work reasonably well if you choose your 
Edit Voicing settings carefully. But one specific situation where they DO NOT 
work is in parts that contain grace notes, because the grace notes can't be 
spaced in the part using any method. 

When viewing/editing a *voiced* linked part:

- Speedy Entry is disabled
- Simple Entry is disabled
- Special Tools are disabled

And, of course, the beat chart does not allow you to position grace notes.

Therefore, there is NO WAY to adjust the spacing for grace notes on voiced 
linked parts. This is a known bug, dating back to the introduction of linked 
parts. 

The ONLY workarounds are (A) extract the parts, or (B) explode them onto 
non-printing staves in your score.

Cheers,

- DJA
-
WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org



On 28 Jul 2011, at 12:21 PM, SN jef chippewa wrote:

 
 just tried voices (which i almost never use) and it works.  i 
 adjusted the grace notes (special tools) in two separate voices (not 
 layers) independently from within the PT (F2010)
 http://newmusicnotation.com/TEMPFILES/grace_voices.pdf
 
 Adjust it how? Special tools and Speedy are disabled in *voiced* 
 linked parts. Try it and see.
 
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Re: [Finale] Spacing Problem in Linked Parts

[SN jef chippewa]

ah! yes, totally right, have never tried it because i would never use 
this in the stuff i score.

You are still not understanding. I think it's likely that you've 
never tried the specific thing we are talking about. I'm assuming it 
must not come up in your work.

but here i must correct you, just for the sake of completeness :-)

Therefore, there is NO WAY to adjust the spacing for grace notes on 
voiced linked parts. This is [YET ANOTHER] known bug, dating back to 
the introduction of linked parts.

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Re: [Finale] Spacing Problem in Linked Parts

[Neal Gittleman]

Many thanks to those who helped with my grace note spacing problem.  It feels 
like the old days, extracting parts then massaging them!  Reminds me how much 
(this feature excepted) linked parts have made my Finale life easier.

FWIW I did submit a case.  And in doing so I saw the page where they say this 
is a known bug going back to 2007 and their team is working on it...  [Insert 
your own editorial comment here!]

Cheers...

Neal 
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Re: [Finale] Spacing Problem in Linked Parts

[Darcy James Argue]

Hi Neal,

Grace notes do not space correctly with linked voiced parts (i.e. multiple 
parts per staff). This is a problem going back to the very beginning of linked 
parts.

Please file a bug report with Finale.

Meanwhile, you will need to either (A) extract out the staff into individual 
parts, or (B) add non-printing individual staves (1 part per staff) to the 
bottom of your score, explode the part to those staves, and use those as the 
source for your parts (instead of the staff that appears in the score).

(A) is easier, (B) keeps everything in one file.

Cheers,

- DJA
-
WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org



On 27 Jul 2011, at 8:41 PM, Neal Gittleman wrote:

 Greetings...
 
 FinMac 2k11 still w/Snow Leopard.
 
 I'm having a spacing issue that I've never come across before.  Here's the 
 measure in question...
 Demo.jpg
 The spacing is fine in the score, but in the linked parts the grace notes are 
 jammed up against the A-flat and unreadable.  I can't adjust the spacing when 
 editing the parts.
 
 Any suggestions how I can fix the parts?
 
 Thanks...
 
 Neal Gittleman
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Re: [Finale] Spacing Problem in Linked Parts

[christopher.smith]

Hi Neal,

Unfortunately, this is a well-documented bug dating from the FIRST linked parts 
version, and never corrected or even addressed. It occurs when you have linked, 
voiced parts (not all linked parts, just those where you split into different 
parts from the same staff) that use grace notes. Grace notes are okay on linked 
parts that have only one part per staff.

The way around it is to extract the part(s). This is not as big a pain as it 
sounds, as you can do all your formatting as a linked part, then once 
everything is done, extract the part and ALL the formatting is preserved 
(unlike the pre-2007 part extraction.)

Please open a tech support case outlining this problem and your complaint. This 
will force them to make note of the complaint, and move it up the to-do list. 
This bug makes linked parts useless if you ever use grace notes, and they 
really should address it.

Christopher


- Original Message -
From: Neal Gittleman nealg...@mac.com
Date: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 10:30 pm
Subject: [Finale] Spacing Problem in Linked Parts
To: finale@shsu.edu

 Greetings...
 
 FinMac 2k11 still w/Snow Leopard.
 
 I'm having a spacing issue that I've never come across 
 before.  Here's the measure in question... 
 The spacing is fine in the score, but in the linked parts the 
 grace notes are jammed up against the A-flat and 
 unreadable.  I can't adjust the spacing when editing the parts.
 
 Any suggestions how I can fix the parts?
 
 Thanks...
 
 Neal Gittleman ___
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Re: [Finale] spacing lost in SC when doing PTs

[SN jef chippewa]

i've been trying to reproduce the behaviour with a new window placed 
on a second monitor so i can see it when it happens.  thought maybe 
it had to do with updating the layout and checking all parts or 
selecting all and applying music spacing and then switching to 
another part and doing the same, but so far can't reproduce it.  of 
course i have noticed various weirdness when using a new window, 
maybe this prevents it.  or not.



Yeah, I never know what is going on there. Often my parts need to be 
respaced individually (I haven't noticed it with the score, though) 
and I can't figure out why. I just do it now, and don't ask why. 
Probably something about the program I don't know.


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Re: [Finale] spacing lost in SC when doing PTs

[Williams, Jim]

Just a hypothesis: could this be related to that multi-measure rest thing in 
document options?
That seems to cause unwanted respacing in other circumstances and might 
possibly be in play here.
Jef, care to test the hypothesis by unchecking that box and going about your 
work on your parts? 

Sent from my iPhone, so please pardon all the typos.

On Jan 16, 2011, at 11:26 AM, SN jef chippewa shirl...@newmusicnotation.com 
wrote:

 
 i've been trying to reproduce the behaviour with a new window placed 
 on a second monitor so i can see it when it happens.  thought maybe 
 it had to do with updating the layout and checking all parts or 
 selecting all and applying music spacing and then switching to 
 another part and doing the same, but so far can't reproduce it.  of 
 course i have noticed various weirdness when using a new window, 
 maybe this prevents it.  or not.
 
 
 Yeah, I never know what is going on there. Often my parts need to be 
 respaced individually (I haven't noticed it with the score, though) 
 and I can't figure out why. I just do it now, and don't ask why. 
 Probably something about the program I don't know.
 
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Re: [Finale] spacing lost in SC when doing PTs

[SN jef chippewa]

the weird thing is that this doesn't affect all measures and i'm not 
sure it is related to music spacing, because the music spacing is in 
fact removed in the problematic SC measures; also their measure 
widths exactly match the widths of the same measure in one of the PTs 
that has no music in that measure (is default whole rest).


this suggests to me that it happens when i select a range of measures 
in the PT and change their widths (for a series of empty measures 
with time sig changes, or a range of tied half/whole notes, for 
example).


i'm usually pretty careful of this, but i wonder if it is just 
carelessness when flipping back and forth between SC and PT, since 
after selecting a region in the PT and then going to the SC, the same 
region is selected in the SC; maybe the 4gets pressed again...


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Re: [Finale] spacing lost in SC when doing PTs

[SN jef chippewa]

jari, you mean update automatically?  i have that unchecked by default.

Just a hypothesis: could this be related to that multi-measure rest 
thing in document options? That seems to cause unwanted respacing in 
other circumstances and might possibly be in play here. Jef, care to 
test the hypothesis by unchecking that box and going about your work 
on your parts?


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[Finale] spacing lost in SC when doing PTs

[SN jef chippewa]

ok this is really starting to be a pisser.  has anyone else come 
across this?  i do all the layout, make everything all pretty in the 
SC, and then generate the PTs and at some point, presumably while 
applying music spacing to one of them, the spacing in the SC goes 
wacko.  once the PTs are in place and i go back to correct the SC, 
the PTs never seem to move, but man, what a bleep this is.


i have even tried clicking outside the staves before switching to 
another PT to space (so that the same passage is not selected in the 
next PT i go to) and selecting all before applying music spacing.


g.

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Re: [Finale] spacing lost in SC when doing PTs

[Christopher Smith]

Yeah, I never know what is going on there. Often my parts need to be respaced 
individually (I haven't noticed it with the score, though) and I can't figure 
out why. I just do it now, and don't ask why. Probably something about the 
program I don't know.

Christopher


On Sat Jan 15, at SaturdayJan 15 11:44 AM, SN jef chippewa wrote:

 
 ok this is really starting to be a pisser.  has anyone else come across this? 
  i do all the layout, make everything all pretty in the SC, and then generate 
 the PTs and at some point, presumably while applying music spacing to one of 
 them, the spacing in the SC goes wacko.  once the PTs are in place and i go 
 back to correct the SC, the PTs never seem to move, but man, what a bleep 
 this is.
 
 i have even tried clicking outside the staves before switching to another PT 
 to space (so that the same passage is not selected in the next PT i go to) 
 and selecting all before applying music spacing.
 
 g.
 
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Re: [Finale] spacing lost in SC when doing PTs

[Chuck Israels]

On Jan 15, 2011, at 10:16 AM, Christopher Smith wrote:

  Probably something about the program I don't know.

Not much of that, in my experience :)

Chuck



Chuck Israels
1310 NW Naito Parkway #807
Portland, OR 97209-3162
phone: (503) 926-7952
cell phone: (360) 201-3434
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Re: [Finale] Spacing with dotted notes

[David W. Fenton]

On 11 Dec 2010 at 20:32, dc wrote:

 This is Finale's default spacing, which doesn't look good, because the
 3 notes in the right hand are all on the first beat:
 
 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15830163/default.jpg
 
 How could it be improved? What about placing the C and E before the
 dotted note?
 
 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15830163/dot.jpg
 
 Another possibility would be to put them on the lower staff.

I'd likely move the half-note third closer to the beat, then adjust 
the positioning of the dot on the half note to be somewhere non-
standard. I gave some thought to renotating the value of the dotted 
half note to eliminate the dot (e.g., replacing it with a half tied 
to a quarter), but think that causes more problems than it solves.

I'd see if I could find some Breitkopft  Härtel models from the late 
19th century (e.g., any of the Gesamtausgabend, such as Mozart, etc.) 
and see how they did it.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/


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[Finale] spacing tip

[dershem]

Someone posted a tip here recently about keeping spacing from updating 
when you print, and messing up your manual spacing.  I meant to print it 
but apparently spaced out.

COuld someone re-post, or give me a pointer to it?

Thanks!

cd
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Re: [Finale] spacing tip

[Ryan]

Doc Options. Multi measure rest. Uncheck box that says update automatically
or some such.
Is that the one you're looking for?

On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 8:10 PM, dershem ders...@cox.net wrote:

 Someone posted a tip here recently about keeping spacing from updating when
 you print, and messing up your manual spacing.  I meant to print it but
 apparently spaced out.
 COuld someone re-post, or give me a pointer to it?

 Thanks!

 cd
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Re: [Finale] spacing tip

[dershem]

On 7/8/2010 8:24 PM, Ryan wrote:

Doc Options. Multi measure rest. Uncheck box that says update automatically
or some such.
Is that the one you're looking for?


Yes!  Thanks.

cd

PS - don't get old, or to busy!
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Re: [Finale] spacing with layers again

[Mark D Lew]

That looks like standard Finale behavior to me.  I would expect to  
have to add space in a situation like that.


Finale's awareness of collisions between layers is incomplete.

mdl
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Re: [Finale] spacing with layers again

[dhbailey]

Mark D Lew wrote:
That looks like standard Finale behavior to me.  I would expect to have 
to add space in a situation like that.


Finale's awareness of collisions between layers is incomplete.



And inexplicable after all these years, all these versions 
and all these development dollars.



--
David H. Bailey
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] spacing with layers again

[Christopher Smith]

Normally I agree with Mark D. Lew out of the box on all things  
relating to spacing (his posts a couple of years back on lyric  
spacing were a Master's seminar), but in this case I would just shift  
that left hand first beat (both notes) a little to the left so that  
the stem UP note aligns with the right hand instead of the stem down  
note. You have the extra space at the start of the measure already  
because of the grace note in the right hand, so that saves you some  
awkward manual spacing. It should be enough.


Unfortunately, there is no default setting I know of that keeps you  
from having to do this by hand. I don't know why Finale can't avoid  
collisions between augmentation dots and accidentals.


Christopher


On Wed May 19, at WednesdayMay 19 3:50 AM, dc wrote:

This is the default Finale spacing with two layers (note that the  
left hand e in the second measure is dotted under the natural, or  
should be!). Both layers have the affects music spacing box  
ticked? Is there any way to get Finale to do any better than this?  
Are there any settings I need to change? Using 2 voices instead of  
2 layers gives the same result, by the way.


www.collins.lautre.net/files/spacing.jpg

Thanks,

Dennis



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Re: [Finale] spacing with layers again

[Rich Caldwell]

 dhbailey écrit:
 And inexplicable after all these years, all these versions and all these 
 development dollars.
 
 Quite amazing, actually, that this has never been taken care of. How does 
 Sibelius behave?

I entered the same snippet into Sibelius (I've been learning Sibelius so am 
very curious about the differences). I put those two bars on one system and 
dragged the system width inward. As I do that, the beats move closer together 
evenly until that 2nd quarter gets close to the dot of the half note, then it 
stops and only the 2nd two beats crunch together. Eventually, duress sets in 
and it moves over the dot. The point at which it stops might be a tad closer 
than some people's tastes, but it is taking it into account clearly.

This would be a bigger victory for Sibelius if it automatically moved rests out 
of the way in multiple voices better. In this example the quarter rest over the 
half note D ends up colliding badly. It's easy to fix this though: just select 
the rest and click the up arrow two times.

By the way, at the risk of derailing this thread, I'm keeping a big list of 
pros and cons of Sibelius vs. Finale. At first the pros were attractive, but as 
I've used the program and entered real music, the cons list has grown to over 
twice the length of the pros. I think overall though — despite some clunky 
methods of entering basic elements, lack of any typographic control, and no EPS 
graphic import (big one!!!) — the pros are actually a tad weightier. Maybe the 
fun of novelty is influencing my opinion.

I dare not compile a list of cons with Finale.

Rich
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Re: [Finale] spacing with layers again

[Mark D Lew]

Christopher Smith wrote:

Normally I agree with Mark D. Lew out of the box on all things  
relating to spacing (his posts a couple of years back on lyric  
spacing were a Master's seminar), but in this case I would just shift  
that left hand first beat (both notes) a little to the left so that  
the stem UP note aligns with the right hand instead of the stem down  
note. You have the extra space at the start of the measure already  
because of the grace note in the right hand, so that saves you some  
awkward manual spacing. It should be enough.

Thanks for the kind words. I think I'm more at peace with Finale's spacing 
errors than most users since I tweak spacing so often anyway. There's a LOT of 
situations where Finale's spacing is acceptable but not optimal. Due to my 
natural inclination and the type of work I usually do, I'm frequently editing 
bars like that anyway. I know I'm not a typical user, though.

Having recently upgraded from v04, I've noticed several improvements where what 
was formerly unacceptable is now acceptable but still not what I really want. 
So while I appreciate that it's an improvement, for me personally it doesn't 
really reduce my work since I'm still going to edit the measure.  If this layer 
problem were fixed, I imagine it would be a similar story.

In the current example, I see your point, but I think I still want the downstem 
notes to be the ones that align with the RH. I don't have a hard-and-fast rule 
for these things, but that's what feels right to me. It's possible I'd change 
my mind after seeing how it looks each way, or if something in the the larger 
context of the music makes a difference.

mdl
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RE: [Finale] spacing with layers again

[Phillips, Justin]

Hi Dennis,

I can confirm that this is incorrect behavior from your example, and is 
something that has been happening for a while.  We're aware of this, and I have 
added this again to the list for our development team to address.

Thanks,

Justin Phillips
Notation Product Specialist
MakeMusic, Inc.
7615 Golden Triangle Drive, Suite M
Eden Prairie, MN 55344-3848 
Direct: (952) 818-3819
Sales: (800) 843-2066 
Technical Support: (952) 937-9703
Fax: (952) 937-9760


-Original Message-
From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of dc
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 2:51 AM
To: finale-shsu.edu
Subject: [Finale] spacing with layers again

This is the default Finale spacing with two layers (note that the left hand 
e in the second measure is dotted under the natural, or should be!). Both 
layers have the affects music spacing box ticked? Is there any way to get 
Finale to do any better than this? Are there any settings I need to change? 
Using 2 voices instead of 2 layers gives the same result, by the way.

www.collins.lautre.net/files/spacing.jpg

Thanks,

Dennis



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Re: [Finale] spacing with dotted notes

[Christopher Smith]

That would be The Art of Music Engraving  Processing or I think  
the complete title might be Teach Yourself the Art of Music  
Engraving  Processing by Ted Ross, the 3rd edition I have is  
copyright 1987. It is widely considered to be one of the leading  
references for points of standard notation.


I think I got my copy from NCP Imaging

http://www.npcimaging.com/books/TedRoss.htm

but I notice the book version is out of print right now. The CD ROM  
version is still available, though. Nick Carter, who runs this  
company, is a member of this list and a good guy. I have dealt with  
him a few times over the last five years or so, and have never been  
disappointed.


Christopher




On Sun May 9, at SundayMay 9 11:29 PM, James Cooper wrote:


Christopher,

You have me curious -- what is the Ted Ross you refer to?

 --- James


James Cooper
Composer, classical guitarist, songwriter
www.ModeZ.com



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Re: [Finale] spacing with dotted notes

[dhbailey]

Christopher Smith wrote:
That would be The Art of Music Engraving  Processing or I think the 
complete title might be Teach Yourself the Art of Music Engraving  
Processing by Ted Ross, the 3rd edition I have is copyright 1987. It is 
widely considered to be one of the leading references for points of 
standard notation.


I think I got my copy from NCP Imaging

http://www.npcimaging.com/books/TedRoss.htm



That's NPC Imaging:  http://www.npcimaging.com -- click on 
the Bookstore link in the upper left, but be sure to look 
around at all the fantastic stuff he has available in a 
single web-site.  He's done a terrific job compiling tools 
for music notation (software, hardware, reference books, 
scores).


He's got other books related to music notation as well. 
It's funny that everybody puts so much faith in what Ted 
Ross says, yet he was an engraver for Hansen House, and 
their publications (I don't even know if they're still in 
existence) were never among the highest quality of printed 
music.  However, he is the only person in recent memory who 
actually wrote a book about engraving music, so he has 
become a de facto standard-bearer.


I find that he also doesn't cover a lot of what's needed for 
clear engraving so I often refer to Gardner Read's book 
Music Notation and to Kurt Stone's book Music Notation in 
the 20th Century.  Nick Carter has those available as well. 
 And for composers/arrangers/editors, Andrew Stiller's 
Handbook of Instrumentation remains an excellent reference work.


--
David H. Bailey
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] spacing with dotted notes

[James Cooper]

Christopher,

You have me curious -- what is the Ted Ross you refer to?

 --- James


James Cooper
Composer, classical guitarist, songwriter
www.ModeZ.com



 Ted Ross (p 170 in the 3rd edition) suggests exactly what you ask. I'm not
 sure what this does to the vertical alignment in a piano part, though.

 Aligning the stems (which you would do if there was no dot) and shifting
 the dot to the right he specifically says is not correct.

 Christopher




 On Sat May 8, at SaturdayMay 8 10:59 AM, dc wrote:

  This is Finale's default note spacing:

 www.collins.lautre.net/files/default.jpg

 How could I improve the placement of the g-b third? Would it be acceptable
 to put it before the c, as here?

 Thanks,

 Dennis

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Re: [Finale] spacing with dotted notes

[Barbara Touburg]

dc wrote:

This is Finale's default note spacing:

www.collins.lautre.net/files/default.jpg

How could I improve the placement of the g-b third? Would it be 
acceptable to put it before the c, as here?


Thanks,

Dennis



Select it (mass mover tool or whatever it is called now) and use shift-num-plus to give it more 
space - that is, if you have the full version of TGTools. I do it all the time.

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Re: [Finale] spacing with dotted notes

[Christopher Smith]

Yeah, that's pretty bad!

Ted Ross (p 170 in the 3rd edition) suggests exactly what you ask.  
I'm not sure what this does to the vertical alignment in a piano  
part, though.


Aligning the stems (which you would do if there was no dot) and  
shifting the dot to the right he specifically says is not correct.


Christopher



On Sat May 8, at SaturdayMay 8 10:59 AM, dc wrote:


This is Finale's default note spacing:

www.collins.lautre.net/files/default.jpg

How could I improve the placement of the g-b third? Would it be  
acceptable to put it before the c, as here?


Thanks,

Dennis


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Re: [Finale] spacing with dotted notes

[Mark D Lew]

On May 8, 2010, at 7:59 AM, dc wrote:


This is Finale's default note spacing:

www.collins.lautre.net/files/default.jpg

How could I improve the placement of the g-b third? Would it be  
acceptable to put it before the c, as here?


I would put the GB to the left of the C, definitely.  I'd make the C  
align with the bass part, since that voice has parallel rhythm, so  
the GB would be offset leftward.


Since that will put it too close to the previous note, you'll need to  
create space there. You could do that by stretching the measure and  
then tweaking the beat chart, but my approach would be to add an  
accidental or two to the chord and respace the music so that Finale  
makes room for those accidentals, then delete the accidentals and  
don't respace, using the extra space for the displaced GB instead.


I often do pieces with a lot of layers in the piano part, and I've  
found Finale frequently makes non-optimal choices when dealing with  
displaced noteheads.  I think of fixing them as fairly routine.


mdl
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[Finale] spacing of staves

[Christer Wallstrom]

What about space systems evenly (pagelayout)
 Works fine for me. Easy to use

Christer W
Minister of Music
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Re: [Finale] spacing of staves

[Christopher Smith]

With nothing quoted, I take it you are responding to the question  
about how to get the staves in a system more closely spaces for only  
one system. Unfortunately, the Space Systems Evenly command does not  
change positioning of the staves inside the system, only the systems  
themselves.


Christopher


On Wed Apr 14, at WednesdayApr 14 7:11 AM, Christer Wallstrom wrote:


What about space systems evenly (pagelayout)
 Works fine for me. Easy to use

Christer W
Minister of Music
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Re: [Finale] Spacing of staves

[Rich Caldwell]

On Apr 12, 2010, at 1:09 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
 Respace Staves goes back at least to v3.0 (early 90s).
 
 It was in the first version of Finale I ever used, 2.01, back in 
 1991. My guess is that it's a near-original feature, and I'm glad to 
 hear it's been enhanced.
 
 What I'd like, though, is the ability to set the top and bottom staff 
 and then have the ones in between spaced evenly automatically. Is 
 that available in current versions of Finale?

Yes, that's what I meant to ask; when the ability to respace staves on a 
system-by-system basis was introduced. It appears that hasn't been around 
forever.

The feature isn't obvious though. You must optimize the systems (not letting it 
remove staves), then when you're in the staff tool, drag enclose the bottom 
handle on the staves and do the Respace Staves function. Unfortunately, Finale 
won't do exactly what you want. You have to fiddle with the numbers in the 
dialog until you get the resulting system height you want. It would be nice if 
there were a simple distribute staves evenly command that would keep the top 
and bottom staves where you put them, but the only option available right now 
is to keep the top staff position where it is.

Sounds like a plugin could accomplish this task very easily…

Rich
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Re: [Finale] Spacing of staves

[John Howell]

At 11:13 AM -0400 4/14/10, Rich Caldwell wrote:


The feature isn't obvious though. You must optimize the systems (not 
letting it remove staves), then when you're in the staff tool, drag 
enclose the bottom handle on the staves and do the Respace Staves 
function. Unfortunately, Finale won't do exactly what you want. You 
have to fiddle with the numbers in the dialog until you get the 
resulting system height you want. It would be nice if there were a 
simple distribute staves evenly command that would keep the top 
and bottom staves where you put them, but the only option available 
right now is to keep the top staff position where it is.


Good Lord, Composer's Mosaic could do this 'way back in about '92!!! 
And it even kept related staves grouped closer together.  Made page 
layout easy and instantaneous, even as unsophisticated as the program 
was at that point.  I miss it.  (But I don't miss some of the 
limitations!)


John


--
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts  Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

We never play anything the same way once.  Shelly Manne's definition
of jazz musicians.
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Re: [Finale] Spacing of staves

[Robert Patterson]

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Rich Caldwell caldw...@shypuppy.net wrote:

 Sounds like a plugin could accomplish this task very easily…


The task is complicated (for a plugin) by staff and system scaling
options. However, there is a plugin that gets close in TGTools. It
allows you to contract or expand the existing spacing by a fixed
percent. Not what you want, but you can get the result fairly
efficiently.

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RE: [Finale] Spacing of staves

[Lee Actor]

 Alternatively, you can select Staff Usage from the menu and enter
 the vertical positions directly.  If you select the top handle, the
 dialog box will say global; if you select the bottom it will name
 which system you're adjusting.

 mdl

I've been using Finale for more than a decade, and have always thought it
odd that adjusting staff position seemed to be the only item I had to adjust
by eye and not by numerical position.  Thanks for pointing this out!
(Adjusting by eye does work pretty well, though.)

Lee Actor
Composer-in-Residence and Assistant Conductor, Palo Alto Philharmonic
Assistant Conductor, Nova Vista Symphony
http://www.leeactor.com

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Re: [Finale] Spacing of staves

[Rich Caldwell]

When was the Respace Staves option introduced? I seem to recall having to 
enter the staff positions in Staff Usage a while ago, or dragging every staff 
individually, but it's tedious just thinking about that now.
 
Rich

On Apr 12, 2010, at 3:25 AM, Lee Actor wrote:
 Alternatively, you can select Staff Usage from the menu and enter
 the vertical positions directly.  If you select the top handle, the
 dialog box will say global; if you select the bottom it will name
 which system you're adjusting.
 
 mdl
 
 I've been using Finale for more than a decade, and have always thought it
 odd that adjusting staff position seemed to be the only item I had to adjust
 by eye and not by numerical position.  Thanks for pointing this out!
 (Adjusting by eye does work pretty well, though.)
 
 Lee Actor
 Composer-in-Residence and Assistant Conductor, Palo Alto Philharmonic
 Assistant Conductor, Nova Vista Symphony
 http://www.leeactor.com
 
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Re: [Finale] Spacing of staves

[Noel Stoutenburg]

Respace staves was introduced at least by Finale 2k.

ns


Rich Caldwell wrote:

When was the Respace Staves option introduced? I seem to recall having to enter the 
staff positions in Staff Usage a while ago, or dragging every staff individually, but 
it's tedious just thinking about that now.

Rich

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Re: [Finale] Spacing of staves

[Robert Patterson]

Respace Staves goes back at least to v3.0 (early 90s). What I don't
remember is when it became possible to use it with optimized systems.
This is a feature I discovered much more recently.

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 8:41 AM, Noel Stoutenburg mjol...@ticnet.com wrote:
 Respace staves was introduced at least by Finale 2k.

 ns


 Rich Caldwell wrote:

 When was the Respace Staves option introduced? I seem to recall having
 to enter the staff positions in Staff Usage a while ago, or dragging every
 staff individually, but it's tedious just thinking about that now.

 Rich

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Re: [Finale] Spacing of staves

[Mark D Lew]

On Apr 12, 2010, at 12:25 AM, Lee Actor wrote:

I've been using Finale for more than a decade, and have always  
thought it
odd that adjusting staff position seemed to be the only item I had  
to adjust

by eye and not by numerical position.  Thanks for pointing this out!
(Adjusting by eye does work pretty well, though.)


I prefer entering numbers to dragging for just about anything,  
because that's just my personality.  But it's especially important  
for this because I'll sometimes kludge something so that it's  
technically connected to one staff but is intended to appear on the  
next, so I need the space between to be an exact multiple of my staff  
space width.


mdl
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Re: [Finale] Spacing of staves

[David W. Fenton]

On 12 Apr 2010 at 7:55, Rich Caldwell asked:

 When was the Respace Staves option introduced

On 12 Apr 2010 at 8:41, Noel Stoutenburg replied:

 Respace staves was introduced at least by Finale 2k.

On 12 Apr 2010 at 9:16, Robert Patterson wrote:

 Respace Staves goes back at least to v3.0 (early 90s).

It was in the first version of Finale I ever used, 2.01, back in 
1991. My guess is that it's a near-original feature, and I'm glad to 
hear it's been enhanced.

What I'd like, though, is the ability to set the top and bottom staff 
and then have the ones in between spaced evenly automatically. Is 
that available in current versions of Finale?

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: [Finale] Spacing of staves

[Darcy James Argue]

On 12 Apr 2010, at 1:09 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:

 What I'd like, though, is the ability to set the top and bottom staff 
 and then have the ones in between spaced evenly automatically. Is 
 that available in current versions of Finale?

No -- that's one area where Sibelius has a significant advantage.

Cheers,

- DJA
-
WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org


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Re: [Finale] Spacing of staves

[David W. Fenton]

On 12 Apr 2010 at 14:18, Darcy James Argue wrote:

 On 12 Apr 2010, at 1:09 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
 
  What I'd like, though, is the ability to set the top and bottom
  staff and then have the ones in between spaced evenly automatically.
  Is that available in current versions of Finale?
 
 No -- that's one area where Sibelius has a significant advantage.

Well, I haven't played with the Sibelius demo for a while, but last 
time I did, I found it's options for sizing of systems and layout to 
be really restricted. To change one factor in the layout involved 
changing the whole style (or however they worded it). It seemed tied 
to terminology that was really old-fashioned, i.e., rastrals and such 
(tied to hand copying/engraving, instead of being computer-oriented) 
and not helpful.

After posting I also thought of one of my annoyances with Finale, one 
that we are all probably so accustomed to that we don't even notice 
it any more, and that's the insistence on using negative numbers for 
distances from the top of a page. This is, if I'm remembering 
correctly, because PostScript calculates distances from the bottom of 
the page, so moving something down from the top is going in the 
opposite direction.

This is one of those cases of what Joel Spolsky calls the law of 
leaky abstractions (Google it -- it's a great read), and I just 
don't see any excuse for letting negative numbers leak through to the 
user interface. It's just confusing and doesn't make the program 
itself any easier to maintain (the amount of code it would take to 
convert positive values back and forth to/from a dialog box is so 
trivial as to be insignificant).

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: [Finale] Spacing of staves

[Noel Stoutenburg]

David W. Fenton wrote:



After posting I also thought of one of my annoyances with Finale, one
that we are all probably so accustomed to that we don't even notice
it any more, and that's the insistence on using negative numbers for
distances from the top of a page. This is, if I'm remembering
correctly, because PostScript calculates distances from the bottom of
the page,


I don't know enough about Postscript internals to offer an opinion as to 
whether this is why Finale uses negative numbers in some values. I would 
note, though, that all settings which indicate displacement distance, 
not only page and system margins, but also displacements of notational 
elements like group brackets, articulations, and expressions, all use 
the same convention: the distance an item is moved to the right of, or 
up from a reference point or line is a positive number, the distance 
that same item is moved down from, or the the left of a reference point 
or line is indicated by a negative value.


On the whole, this seems to me to be a fairly intuitive convention for 
someone who has been involved with mathematics, physics, or computer 
science and I suspect makes for a cleaner user interface, than the 
alternative, which seems to me would be about like the shift lyrics 
dialog, in that one would set a distance, and then would have to specify 
up or right, and down or left, whereas by using positive and negative 
numbers to specify direction, one needs to specify the direction only in 
half of the cases, since the default (positive numbers, in this case) is 
adequate for the balance.


ns
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[Finale] Spacing of staves

[Dan Tillberg]

Thought I knew this but now I can't remember or is this not possible?

 

How can I make a score so that the distance between the staves are slightly
less on the first page (to give room for the title etc) and fill normally
on subsequent pages?

 

Thanks

/D

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Re: [Finale] Spacing of staves

[Chuck Israels]

Page Layout/Allow Individual spacing


On Apr 11, 2010, at 1:16 PM, Dan Tillberg wrote:

 Thought I knew this but now I can't remember or is this not possible?
 
 
 
 How can I make a score so that the distance between the staves are slightly
 less on the first page (to give room for the title etc) and fill normally
 on subsequent pages?
 
 
 
 Thanks
 
 /D
 
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phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
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Re: [Finale] Spacing of staves

[Christopher Smith]

You have to Optimise, without removing any staves. This gives you a  
lower handle in the Staff Tool on each staff that adjusts the staff  
FOR THAT SYSTEM ONLY. You can still adjust global staff distances  
with the upper handle.


Christopher


On Sun Apr 11, at SundayApr 11 4:16 PM, Dan Tillberg wrote:


Thought I knew this but now I can't remember or is this not possible?



How can I make a score so that the distance between the staves are  
slightly
less on the first page (to give room for the title etc) and fill  
normally

on subsequent pages?



Thanks

/D

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Re: [Finale] Spacing of staves

[Chuck Israels]

Yes, Christopher, that works too, but there is a menu choice - Allow Individual 
Staff Spacing  that accomplishes the same thing without the need to optimise 
the system.

Chuck


On Apr 11, 2010, at 2:06 PM, Christopher Smith wrote:

 You have to Optimise, without removing any staves. This gives you a lower 
 handle in the Staff Tool on each staff that adjusts the staff FOR THAT SYSTEM 
 ONLY. You can still adjust global staff distances with the upper handle.
 
 Christopher
 
 
 On Sun Apr 11, at SundayApr 11 4:16 PM, Dan Tillberg wrote:
 
 Thought I knew this but now I can't remember or is this not possible?
 
 
 
 How can I make a score so that the distance between the staves are slightly
 less on the first page (to give room for the title etc) and fill normally
 on subsequent pages?
 
 
 
 Thanks
 
 /D
 
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Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
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fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com


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Re: [Finale] Spacing of staves

[Noel Stoutenburg]

I'll elaborate just a bit on what Christopher Smith wrote:


You have to Optimise, without removing any staves. This gives you a
lower handle in the Staff Tool on each staff that adjusts the staff FOR
THAT SYSTEM ONLY. You can still adjust global staff distances with the
upper handle.


When I make the adjustment to the first system by dragging the handle, I 
start from the bottom up; I calculate how much space I'll need (measured 
in music staff spaces), divide by one fewer than the total number of 
staves, and move the bottommost staff up by that quantity. Then clicking 
on lower handle of the next staff from the bottom, while holding down 
the shift key, (which selects both of the bottom two staves), I'll move 
both staves up by that same quantity, and then repeat as neaded for 
subsequent staves in the first sytem.


I don't see where you mention the version of Finale that you're using; 
but both versions (select a handle and drag, and by means of the menu 
options) work at least as far back as Finale 2k, though they may be in a 
different space in earlier versions.


ns
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Re: [Finale] Spacing of staves

[Mark D Lew]

On Apr 11, 2010, at 5:07 PM, Noel Stoutenburg wrote:


I'll elaborate just a bit on what Christopher Smith wrote:


You have to Optimise, without removing any staves. This gives you a
lower handle in the Staff Tool on each staff that adjusts the  
staff FOR
THAT SYSTEM ONLY. You can still adjust global staff distances with  
the

upper handle.


When I make the adjustment to the first system by dragging the  
handle [...]


Alternatively, you can select Staff Usage from the menu and enter  
the vertical positions directly.  If you select the top handle, the  
dialog box will say global; if you select the bottom it will name  
which system you're adjusting.


mdl
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Re: [Finale] Finale spacing issue: F2009, OS X

[Eric Fiedler]

I hear what you're saying...and sometimes a local solution is the  
best and only way to go in a pinch. But on the other hand, there's  
something about a score with a number of different spacing algorithms  
that doesn't look quite right to me. As I understand it, the old  
engravers of yesteryear used one set of spacings for a whole piece or  
movement, which _did_ require a lot of calculations before hammering  
in the first note punch, but which produced results which are easy to  
read and in addition exude a wonderful kind of harmonious rightness  
that has a lot to do with the overall graphical balance between black  
and white on the page. Or am I being too fussy here? I'd be  
interested in your take on the subject — or anybody's take, for that  
matter.

Eric

Habsburger Verlag Frankfurt (Dr. Fiedler)
www.habsburgerverlag.de
eric.f.fied...@t-online.de
e.fied...@em.uni-frankfurt.de



On 24.01.2010, at 14:55, Jari Williamsson wrote:


Eric Fiedler wrote:


(c) changing the Note Spacing values globally


Why not locally?



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Re: [Finale] Finale spacing issue: F2009, OS X

[Mark D Lew]

On Jan 25, 2010, at 2:44 AM, Eric Fiedler wrote:

I hear what you're saying...and sometimes a local solution is the  
best and only way to go in a pinch. But on the other hand, there's  
something about a score with a number of different spacing  
algorithms that doesn't look quite right to me. As I understand it,  
the old engravers of yesteryear used one set of spacings for a  
whole piece or movement, which _did_ require a lot of calculations  
before hammering in the first note punch, but which produced  
results which are easy to read and in addition exude a wonderful  
kind of harmonious rightness that has a lot to do with the  
overall graphical balance between black and white on the page. Or  
am I being too fussy here? I'd be interested in your take on the  
subject — or anybody's take, for that matter.


My theory is that a consistent spacing look across the entire piece  
is always the goal, but a uniform set of Finale note spacing values  
is not the best way to achieve that goal.


I guess that means I'm assuming the engraver knows better than the  
program what looks good, and he will use the program as a tool to  
achieve it.  A constant note-spacing variable is extremely useful to  
that and will be used most of the time, but there will be times when  
it's better to depart from that, and I'm trusting the engraver to  
know when it's appropriate.


If the argument against a feature is that some users will use it to  
produce uglier work, there are plenty more things you'd have to  
oppose.  (For one thing, 75% of desktop publishers shouldn't be  
allowed to have more than eight typefaces)


mdl
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Re: [Finale] Finale spacing issue: F2009, OS X

[Christopher Smith]

On Mon Jan 25, at MondayJan 25 1:16 PM, Mark D Lew wrote:

(For one thing, 75% of desktop publishers shouldn't be allowed to  
have more than eight typefaces)



Eight? What are the other seven?

8-)

Christopher
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Re: [Finale] Finale spacing issue: F2009, OS X

[David W. Fenton]

On 25 Jan 2010 at 11:44, Eric Fiedler wrote:

 I hear what you're saying...and sometimes a local solution is the  
 best and only way to go in a pinch. But on the other hand, there's  
 something about a score with a number of different spacing algorithms  
 that doesn't look quite right to me. As I understand it, the old  
 engravers of yesteryear used one set of spacings for a whole piece or  
 movement, which _did_ require a lot of calculations before hammering  
 in the first note punch, but which produced results which are easy to  
 read and in addition exude a wonderful kind of harmonious rightness  
 that has a lot to do with the overall graphical balance between black  
 and white on the page. Or am I being too fussy here? I'd be  
 interested in your take on the subject - or anybody's take, for that  
 matter.

My guess is that however strict any house style that's implemented by 
human engravers might be, there's going to be a ton of minor ad hoc 
adjustments that are either not specifically delineated by the house 
style's spacing rules, or that violate them in any particular case.

Computers are not smart enough to do anything but follow the rules 
slavishly. If you want them to break the rules, you have to define a 
rule! That is, the computer can never do anything other than exactly 
what it's told (though introducing a randomness factor, as with Human 
Playback, might potentially improve results for certain kinds of 
operations without needing to define rules that override other 
rules).

To really implement what a human being does, you'd probably need to 
write a computer program that would take too long to calculate the 
layout.

One computer approach might be to use a multi-pass approach, i.e., do 
a default spacing, then look at it a second time to see if there are 
any suspicious things that need to be fixed. I'm not sure how easy it 
is to examine the Finale data for that, but it might be possible to 
fix certain kinds of errors in a second pass (or flag them and ask 
the user what you want to do about them).

Yet another approach could be to train the spacing mechanism to fix 
certain things (similar to the way you train an OCR or voice 
recognition program). However, there can always be unexpected results 
from that, so whether you wanted the spacing definition to learn 
something like that permanently, or learn it only for the present 
file would be a difficult question.

Another thing to consider is having your music spacing settings to 
always incorporate manual changes, but that can lead to other 
problems (you'd have to turn it off if you wanted to re-run the 
spacing to get rid of mistaken manual spacing).

But I think a human being will *always* do better than a computer. 

However, the issue is how much time it takes the human being, and if 
the computer can get 99.8% of it right and the human can fix the 
remaining .2% in a short period of time (especially when determining 
how to fix that .2% is not susceptible to algorithmic description, or 
has no solution that experienced engravers can all agree on), there's 
little reason to overcomplicate the computer algorithm.

There are a few things that Finale always gets wrong and those are 
fixable in the algorithm, but the things that go wrong only in 
relatively exotic circumstances are probably never going to be fixed.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/


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Re: [Finale] Finale spacing issue: F2009, OS X

[Christopher Smith]

On Mon Jan 25, at MondayJan 25 2:25 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:


One computer approach might be to use a multi-pass approach, i.e., do
a default spacing, then look at it a second time to see if there are
any suspicious things that need to be fixed. I'm not sure how easy it
is to examine the Finale data for that, but it might be possible to
fix certain kinds of errors in a second pass (or flag them and ask
the user what you want to do about them).



Actually, we kind of already do that. I use the default Finale  
spacing that gets things apart from things that shouldn't be  
touching, then apply TG Tools or Patterson plugins to any area that I  
think needs touchup, finishing up with some manual spacing (ugh!) But  
are you referring to PROGRAMMING a multi-pass spacing algorithm?


I know guys like Johannes and the two Dennises do this kind of thing  
constantly and probably have it streamlined, but I would LOVE to have  
some of my manual spacing tasks taken over by a plugin. Some of them  
are pretty simple and could easily be programmed. I wrote in about a  
week ago asking a very specific question about spacing of seconds  
(and other intervals, for that matter!) in different layers when the  
downstem layer is higher than the upstem layer, but got no response,  
so I imagine that particular problem is not automatically addressable.


Christopher


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Re: [Finale] Finale spacing issue: F2009, OS X

[David W. Fenton]

On 25 Jan 2010 at 14:36, Christopher Smith wrote:

 On Mon Jan 25, at MondayJan 25 2:25 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
 
  One computer approach might be to use a multi-pass approach, i.e., do
  a default spacing, then look at it a second time to see if there are
  any suspicious things that need to be fixed. I'm not sure how easy it
  is to examine the Finale data for that, but it might be possible to
  fix certain kinds of errors in a second pass (or flag them and ask
  the user what you want to do about them).
 
 Actually, we kind of already do that. I use the default Finale  
 spacing that gets things apart from things that shouldn't be  
 touching, then apply TG Tools or Patterson plugins to any area that I  
 think needs touchup, finishing up with some manual spacing (ugh!) But  
 are you referring to PROGRAMMING a multi-pass spacing algorithm?

Yep. Programming-wise, sometimes it's easier to start from one state, 
calculate a new state, and then start over from that state with a new 
calculation than it is to try to get there in one pass. It also eases 
the resource requirements in terms of CPU and memory (though these 
days with quad-core CPUs and 8GBs of RAM and more, that's hardly an 
issue).

 I know guys like Johannes and the two Dennises do this kind of thing  
 constantly and probably have it streamlined, but I would LOVE to have  
 some of my manual spacing tasks taken over by a plugin. Some of them  
 are pretty simple and could easily be programmed. I wrote in about a  
 week ago asking a very specific question about spacing of seconds  
 (and other intervals, for that matter!) in different layers when the  
 downstem layer is higher than the upstem layer, but got no response,  
 so I imagine that particular problem is not automatically addressable.

This raises the old plugin argument, i.e., whether MM gets away with 
not improving Finale's internals because someone steps up and 
ameliorates the problems with a plugin (Patterson Beams, anyone?).

Since I use a really old version of Finale (2003), I still have to 
deal with old spacing problems like the colliding 2nds in layers and 
terrible grace-not spacing. I believe both of these have been fixed 
in later versions (the colliding 2nds long ago, the grace notes much 
later, and if I recall correctly, not 100% fixed). Those kinds of 
things ought to be fixed in the basic spacing algorithms within 
Finale (and my melisma problem should be, too), not addressed with a 
plugin.

On the other hand, there are some things that I think a plugin should 
do. For instance, I wish there were some way to use the beat charts 
that would not require moving all the handles. That is, if you could, 
say, widen a measure, allocate more space for the first beat (by 
shift-draggin the 2nd-beat handle) and then tell your plugin to space 
the 2nd beat on to use the available space (as opposed to the music 
bumping up against the bar line). 

Probably a bad example, but it's something I have to do regularly 
frequently, i.e., use beat charts to fix an internal spacing problem, 
but then have to respace the rest of the measure manually. Much of 
that is caused by the fact that I have to get a lot of music into a 
very small space (because of the limits of 2 pages per piece/movement 
for my viol consort), so one of the reasons I run into the issue is 
because I'm forcing the music into less space than is ideal. But 
nonetheless, I see that kind of thing as very much appropriate to 
implementation as a plugin type.

General spacing defects should be fixed within Finale, though.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: [Finale] Finale spacing issue: F2009, OS X

[Jari Williamsson]

Eric Fiedler wrote:
As I understand it, the old engravers of 
yesteryear used one set of spacings for a whole piece or movement, which 
_did_ require a lot of calculations before hammering in the first note 
punch, but which produced results which are easy to read and in addition 
exude a wonderful kind of harmonious rightness that has a lot to do 
with the overall graphical balance between black and white on the page. 
Or am I being too fussy here? I'd be interested in your take on the 
subject — or anybody's take, for that matter.


If you look at the spacing examples at page 37 of Herbert Chlapik's Die 
Praxis des Notengraphikers and try to achieve those examples in Finale, 
you'll see that to translate the rules he uses for old-fashion plate 
engraving/spacing, you'd need to apply many different kinds of Finale 
spacing in different measures, mainly because the spacing languages 
are different between Finale and hand engraving.
I agree with you that different spacing within a Finale document can 
sometimes look odd, but it mostly appears when similar kind of measures 
have been treated differently.


Apart from the basic algorithms, another big difference is that Finale 
currently can not judge what true collision is, while an eye has no 
problem judging that. An when speaking of finetuning  (Der optische 
Ausgleich, page 63-64 in that same truly excellent book) Finale has no 
support at all, although it's quite easy to train the eye in spotting 
those instances to fix the spacing (with beat chart editing and a little 
automation by TGTools).



Best regards,

Jari Williamsson
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Re: [Finale] Finale spacing issue: F2009, OS X

[Mark D Lew]

David W. Fenton wrote:

 On the other hand, there are some things that I think a plugin should 
do. For instance, I wish there were some way to use the beat charts 
that would not require moving all the handles. ... 

The UI on beat chart editing is just awful. I don't mind moving the beat 
spacing around, and I accept that it's something I take upon myself as a fussy 
engraver -- but the crappy way that the handles are moved one at a time and you 
can't really see what you're doing is so unnecessary. If they would just clean 
up the UI for this editing task without actually changing anything internal, 
that would be much appreciated.

My version of Finale isn't quite as ancient as David's, but I'm still many 
years behind.  I don't suppose there's been anything for beat chart editing 
lately, has there?

mdl
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Re: [Finale] Finale spacing issue: F2009, OS X

[Jari Williamsson]

Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote:

In the linked image:

http://imgur.com/Aux4V.png

you will notice the bad spacing between notes 2 and 3.  Apart from 
manually adjusting the third or second notes using the appropriate 
Special Tool, the normal Music Spacing options have no effect.


Has anyone else run into this?

Avoid collision of notes and accidentals is checked in the Music 
Spacing options.


The spacing is being applied to this particular part only, i.e. there 
are no other staves affecting the spacing.  The other bars in the part 
have no problems with spacing, even the same figure in later bars have 
no clashes, so it's not that the spacing is generally squishy.


The behavior is perfectly logical for a number of different reasons.

Most importantly, these kind of rhythms don't (IMO) look good with the 
default fibonacci spacing value of 1.62. Lower the Scaling Factor of the 
spacing (you can try as low as 1.40) and respace the music and the 
problem should go away.



Best regards,

Jari Williamsson
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Re: [Finale] Finale spacing issue: F2009, OS X

[Eric Fiedler]

Happens all the time with us (FinMac 2010).
We generally solve the problem either by
(a) using the Special tools note mover (a royal PITA), or
(b) making the measure (or _all_ measures) a little wider using the  
Measure Tool or Spacing Tool, or

(c) changing the Note Spacing values globally
It appears to be an issue with the spacing algorithms where there  
are accidentals before notes.

If you want to start a petition to MM, you've got my signature!
Eric

Habsburger Verlag Frankfurt (Dr. Fiedler)
www.habsburgerverlag.de
eric.f.fied...@t-online.de
e.fied...@em.uni-frankfurt.de



On 24.01.2010, at 03:51, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote:


In the linked image:

http://imgur.com/Aux4V.png

you will notice the bad spacing between notes 2 and 3.  Apart from  
manually adjusting the third or second notes using the appropriate  
Special Tool, the normal Music Spacing options have no effect.


Has anyone else run into this?

Avoid collision of notes and accidentals is checked in the Music  
Spacing options.


The spacing is being applied to this particular part only, i.e.  
there are no other staves affecting the spacing.  The other bars in  
the part have no problems with spacing, even the same figure in  
later bars have no clashes, so it's not that the spacing is  
generally squishy.


Matthew
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Re: [Finale] Finale spacing issue: F2009, OS X

[Jari Williamsson]

Eric Fiedler wrote:


(c) changing the Note Spacing values globally


Why not locally? Note spacing settings are only applied when respacing 
is done and if you turn off AMS you'll have full control over the 
spacing of the document.


It's easy to build a few FinaleScripts to provide spacing for the 
different spacing situations you'll encounter. For example, if you 
normally use Fibonacci spacing and would like a tighter (such as 1.4) 
for just a selected region, this script would respace and then go back 
to the Fibonacci value.

---
menu item document options
list Music Spacing
press spacing widths...
type 1.4 near Scaling Factor
press ok
press ok
respace
menu item document options
list Music Spacing
press spacing widths...
type 1.62 near Scaling Factor
press ok
press ok
---
Of course, spacing styles as Aaron Sherber suggested earlier in this 
forum would also be a nice feature addition.


It appears to be an issue with the spacing algorithms where there are 
accidentals before notes.


The issue is that there's too much spacing requirements in too little 
horizontal space and the error must appear somewhere. Either the spacing 
ratio will be wrong or there will be collisions. Although collisions 
would look worse in print, incorrect spacing ratio would also be an error.
And the issue that Finale doesn't support optical music kerning to 
provide intelligent space crunching.



If you want to start a petition to MM, you've got my signature!


If you want something to work differently, just contact MM directly 
through Tech Support.



Best regards,

Jari Williamsson
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RE: [Finale] Finale spacing issue: F2009, OS X

[Lee Actor]

 Matthew Hindson (gmail) écrit:
 Has anyone else run into this?
 
 Avoid collision of notes and accidentals is checked in the
 Music Spacing
 options.
 
 The spacing is being applied to this particular part only, i.e.
 there are
 no other staves affecting the spacing.  The other bars in the
 part have no
 problems with spacing, even the same figure in later bars have
 no clashes,
 so it's not that the spacing is generally squishy.

 I've seen this problem several times: a bar where Finale doesn't seem to
 notice the presence of an accidental. I think it's Johannes
 (correct me if
 I'm wrong) who pointed out a fairly easy way to correct this: use
 TGTools,
 and add 0 extra space to the bar in question.

 Dennis


Brilliant!  Any idea why this works?

-Lee

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[Finale] Finale spacing issue: F2009, OS X

[Matthew Hindson (gmail)]

In the linked image:

http://imgur.com/Aux4V.png

you will notice the bad spacing between notes 2 and 3.  Apart from 
manually adjusting the third or second notes using the appropriate 
Special Tool, the normal Music Spacing options have no effect.


Has anyone else run into this?

Avoid collision of notes and accidentals is checked in the Music 
Spacing options.


The spacing is being applied to this particular part only, i.e. there 
are no other staves affecting the spacing.  The other bars in the part 
have no problems with spacing, even the same figure in later bars have 
no clashes, so it's not that the spacing is generally squishy.


Matthew
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[Finale] Spacing of seconds in different layers, incorporate manual adjustments

[Christopher Smith]

FinMac 2010b

This doesn't seem to be working any more. I remember it working  
differently when I last had to use this.


I have avoid collisions of seconds checked in the music spacing  
options, but I find that the notes are a little too close together,  
particularly if the stems-down note is the upper of the two. I can't  
find an option to change the distance between seconds, so I try to  
drag the layer 2 note a little to the right in Speedy, but it snaps  
back as soon as I exit the frame. I have tried all three options in  
Music Spacing, clear, ignore and incorporate (the last one is what I  
actually want) but none of them works. The manual positioning is  
cleared immediately.


I can turn off automatic music spacing, but I WANT it on for most of  
the piece. Am I going to have to do everything, turn it off, come  
back to these bars and THEN position as I want?


Thanks in advance, especially if I am overlooking something obvious.

Christopher


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[Finale] Spacing of over/under symbols

[Richard Huggins]

I'm using over/under chord symbols and want to move them farther away  
from the line in the middle. I haven't yet found how to do this.


Richard
FINMAC 09

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Re: [Finale] spacing woes

[Jari Williamsson]

dc wrote:

Almost two weeks after sending my file to tech support, I am told that 
they haven't found the solution, but that they've finally noticed the 
problem!


Catching up with the old posts here... Did you send my fix to the 
problem to them? I think this should be fairly easy to fix, once it gets 
to the attention of a developer.


Also, regarding the multiple measure number regions and the display 
numbers bug: Has anyone sent in a reproducible-steps procedure of this 
to tech support? If not, I'll do that.



Best regards,

Jari Williamsson
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Re: [Finale] spacing woes

[Chuck Israels]

And beat/note handles often fail to appear when using the measure  
tool.  I don't know if this has to do with showing defined measure  
numbers or not.  I haven't checked it out.  Is there another  
explanation for this?


I have also been bitten by the explode music bug - when exploding  
music that has been enharmonically changed in the original staff, the  
explosion is not only unreliable enharmonically, but it also loses  
notes!  Vigilance is required.


Chuck




On Nov 15, 2007, at 5:13 AM, Christopher Smith wrote:



On Nov 15, 2007, at 2:45 AM, dc wrote:



So there is obviously some dreadful bug induced by the display  
defined measure numbers option! (Which caused the time signature  
to change at the real measure number, and not the displayed  
measure number, though this measure was the only one selected.)


Oh yes! I have certainly seen this one many times!

In 2007 and 2008, checking display defined measure numbers causes  
all kinds of problems, especially when you have more than one  
measure number region, and when you try to go through double- 
clicking a measure in the Time Sig or Key Sig tools. Strangely,  
right-clicking in these tools is no problem, but then you can't  
select a region. Also the Measure tool gives inconsistent results  
if you try to add double bars when DDMN is checked.


Christopher


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Chuck Israels
230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com

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Re: [Finale] spacing woes

[Christopher Smith]

On Nov 15, 2007, at 2:45 AM, dc wrote:



So there is obviously some dreadful bug induced by the display  
defined measure numbers option! (Which caused the time signature  
to change at the real measure number, and not the displayed measure  
number, though this measure was the only one selected.)


Oh yes! I have certainly seen this one many times!

In 2007 and 2008, checking display defined measure numbers causes  
all kinds of problems, especially when you have more than one measure  
number region, and when you try to go through double-clicking a  
measure in the Time Sig or Key Sig tools. Strangely, right-clicking  
in these tools is no problem, but then you can't select a region.  
Also the Measure tool gives inconsistent results if you try to add  
double bars when DDMN is checked.


Christopher


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Re: [Finale] spacing woes

[dhbailey]

dc wrote:

Johannes Gebauer écrit:
There is definitely something wrong in recent versions, and I am 
almost certain it is related to linked parts.


Something wrong also with the display defined measure numbers option. 
I seem to recall others had problems with this, but don't remember the 
details.




The big problem that I have run into is that you can't enter them into 
the playback controls.  Ever since they added the ability to score to 
film and added the measure:beat:frame ability for initiating playback, 
we can't enter defined measure numbers such as 3:25 (3rd region, measure 
25) and have to use the actual measure numbers.


I don't know if there are any other problems.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] spacing woes

[ThomaStudios]

FWIW, sometimes when working in FinMac2K7, I can't access beat  
handles.  I've noticed this has something to do with a plugin window  
being open on my 2nd monitor.  Usually TGT or Patterson.  Closing  
that window solves the problem in that case.


J D  Thomas
ThomaStudios

On Nov 15, 2007, at 8:01 AM, Christopher Smith wrote:

And beat/note handles often fail to appear when using the measure  
tool.  I don't know if this has to do with showing defined measure  
numbers or not.  I haven't checked it out.  Is there another  
explanation for this?




I have noticed inconsistencies with the beat handles, but I haven't  
been able to track down what it is related to. I will keep an eye  
out for this when using show defined measure numbers, and will  
report back if I notice anything.


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Re: [Finale] spacing woes

[Christopher Smith]

On 15-Nov-07, at 9:31 AM, Chuck Israels wrote:

And beat/note handles often fail to appear when using the measure  
tool.  I don't know if this has to do with showing defined measure  
numbers or not.  I haven't checked it out.  Is there another  
explanation for this?




I have noticed inconsistencies with the beat handles, but I haven't  
been able to track down what it is related to. I will keep an eye out  
for this when using show defined measure numbers, and will report  
back if I notice anything.



I have also been bitten by the explode music bug - when exploding  
music that has been enharmonically changed in the original staff,  
the explosion is not only unreliable enharmonically, but it also  
loses notes!  Vigilance is required.



Apparently this is related to using the 9 key in Speedy. If you use  
any other method, like setting the enharmonic spelling defaults  
differently, or using Simple Entry, or what I do, entering the note  
WITHOUT the alteration and then adding it with the + or - key, then  
the problem is avoided completely.


I hope they fix this one real soon!

Christopher


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Re: [Finale] spacing woes

[Jari Williamsson]

dc wrote:

I have not had the same problems with spacing as your images had 
shown, so I am trying to narrow down the possible problems. It seems 
that something in your preferences may be affecting the Music Spacing 
results. Let us try clearing your Finale preferences: [suggestions 
follow to delete finale.ini and finalmid.ini]


The problem is only in ONE file, which they have received 11 days ago, 
along with a screen shot. So how can anyone possibly think that this has 
to do with my preferences?


No, this is nonsense. AFAIK, the INI files contains nothing that would 
affect the rendering of your docs appart from the path to the Font 
Annotation folder. Also, the tech support should know that the file for 
MIDI setup is called FINMIDI.INI.


I've been using Finale for some 15 years now, and I find that tech 
support hasn't really improved...


Very few tech supports have improved during the last 15 years. Virtually 
all commercial software today rely on user-to-user communities (forums, 
lists, wikis, etc) for things that was support issues back then.


Feel free to send the file my way, and I'll try to take a look.


Best regards,

Jari Williamsson
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Re: [Finale] spacing woes

[Jari Williamsson]

dc wrote:

When I 
complained recently about missing hyphens, they actually suggested I add 
them as expressions.


I believe that's their way of saying that they know about the bug and 
that you have to use a workaround until they eventually fix it.



OK, I'll send it.


I took a look at your file and the frames are indeed corrupted. (I'm a 
bit curious if you entered the piece all by hand using Simple/Speedy or 
if you used some import function such as MusicXML import for the data.)


Anyway, this should solve your issue:
1. Copy the whole last piece of your file (begiining of page 6 including 
the upbeat) to a fresh 2-stave file
2. Delete all the measures starting with that upbeat until the end of 
the document (so the piece now ends at page 5)
3. Go to Document/Data Check/File Maintenance... and do a full scan (the 
unused frames and entries should now remove according to the statistics)
4. Add a new measure to the end, select it and reinsert your music from 
the other document

5. Go to the Layout Tool and the adjust system margins


Best regards,

Jari Williamsson
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Re: [Finale] spacing woes

[Noel Stoutenburg]

Dennis wrote:
I've been using Finale for some 15 years now, and I find that tech 
support hasn't really improved...


to which Jari responded,

Very few tech supports have improved during the last 15 years. 
Virtually all commercial software today rely on user-to-user 
communities (forums, lists, wikis, etc) for things that was support 
issues back then.


and my own take on this is that this is in part because many users know 
more about the software than many of the tech support people, though 
this is not (at least in my mind) anything negative about the tech 
support people. I suspect that few of the tech support positions with 
most commercial software are filled by people with large amounts of 
experience, with tech support being, perhaps not an entry level 
position, but still a position where the persons doing that work know 
less than the power users who have used it for years. This may be one of 
the strengths of open source software, in which model some power users 
are more likely to know the source code better, and perhaps even 
contribute to it, than would be the case with most commercial software.


ns

ns

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Re: [Finale] spacing woes

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 14.11.2007 Jari Williamsson wrote:

I took a look at your file and the frames are indeed corrupted. (I'm a bit 
curious if you entered the piece all by hand using Simple/Speedy or if you used 
some import function such as MusicXML import for the data.)


I have a file where one single measure got corrupted and wouldn't space 
correctly. I never used anything else but speedy to enter the piece.


There is definitely something wrong in recent versions, and I am almost 
certain it is related to linked parts.


Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

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Re: [Finale] spacing woes

[Lawrence David Eden]

I noticed that you did not mention testing the file's integrity,  
removing deleted items.

I would certainly give these routines a try...maybe you'll get lucky.







If anyone has any other suggestions, please jump in.


Waiting for you guys to answer (for which many thanks), I tried 
several things, with no luck:

- I imported the music spacing options from another document; no change
- I tried to respace preceding movements, and they get messed up also
- I tried adding measures at the end; no luck
- I cleared all the entries from the document and copied the 5th 
movement as the first; no luck either
- I pasted this movement in another document with the same options, 
and the spacing is correct
- I tried a much larger reference width (going from 84 to 300); the 
spacing is wider, but sill completely crazy, with unexpected 
collisions.


So, I'm afraid you're right, the file is corrupted. I send it to 
technical support, and I'll let you know what they have to say...


I also noticed a few other strange things (before this problem even came up).
- in a couple of places, I had two grace notes at the end of a 
couple of bars; at some time, against my will, these grace notes all 
jumped after the barline to the beginning of the next bar. So I 
deleted them and rentered them. But I couldn't respace the music 
correctly after that.


Thanks again for the suggestions.

Dennis





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Re: [Finale] spacing woes

[Dennis Bathory-Kitsz]

On Sun, November 4, 2007 8:05 am, dc wrote:
 The only way to get rid of the problem is to copy the contents of the file
 in a new one... and lose all the layout and ajusting work already done.

One more thought, and I don't have the thread in front of me to check
this. I have found that these sorts of problems can be cured by deleting
the first offending measure, doing a file data check, and then inserting a
new mesure and entering the information again.

Deleting the first instance of an offending item seems to cure stuff in
Finale. By deleting and creating a fresh measure or item, I've fixed the
runaway measure contents corruption and the dotted-line bug in PDF
creation.

Dennis






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Re: [Finale] spacing woes

[Christopher Smith]

On Nov 4, 2007, at 7:25 AM, Lawrence David Eden wrote:

I noticed that you did not mention testing the file's integrity,   
removing deleted items.

I would certainly give these routines a try...maybe you'll get lucky.



A nice idea, but these have never helped me out, and I have gotten  
plenty of file corruption in my time...


I doubt Dennis would be helped either. Maybe in a future version...

Christopher



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Re: [Finale] spacing woes

[Christopher Smith]

On Nov 4, 2007, at 8:21 AM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:


On Sun, November 4, 2007 8:05 am, dc wrote:
The only way to get rid of the problem is to copy the contents of  
the file
in a new one... and lose all the layout and ajusting work already  
done.


One more thought, and I don't have the thread in front of me to check
this. I have found that these sorts of problems can be cured by  
deleting
the first offending measure, doing a file data check, and then  
inserting a

new mesure and entering the information again.

Deleting the first instance of an offending item seems to cure  
stuff in
Finale. By deleting and creating a fresh measure or item, I've  
fixed the

runaway measure contents corruption and the dotted-line bug in PDF
creation.



Hmm, that would mean that you (the original Dennis) would have to  
delete the measure that messed up the grace notes that you mentioned  
before.


Only having to delete one measure certainly beats my solution of  
copying ALL the music to a new document!


Christopher



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