[Flightgear-devel] multitex investigation

2002-11-05 Thread Roman Grigoriev
Guys Have some troubles with multitex
maybe you gime me how-tos
Ok I can use second texture and second texture coordinates
but we load tiles using genleaf function in obj.cxx
ok it's done at startup but if we want to have landing lights moves we have
generate second texture coordinates in realtime
please give me hint where in flightgear it can be done? in tileentry?
but we have to regenerate our tiles (second texture coordinates in realtime
and genleaf function don't work at all)
Thanx in advance
Roman



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] 747-yasim Questions

2002-11-05 Thread David Megginson
Jim Wilson writes:

  Ok, yes as long as the origin is in sync, and the fdm rotates
  correctly.  Just the same if the FDM origin was at the
  c.g. (geometry or gravity?) instead of the cockpit there would be a
  better chance of actually having the thing on the runway.

The CG moves around quite a bit -- that's why aircraft have a fixed
reference point for calculating weight and balance.  Use the reference
point, Luke.


All the best,


David

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re: [Flightgear-devel] model.h usable for multiplayer

2002-11-05 Thread David Megginson
ace project writes:

  Is the class FGModelPlacement a good class to inherit
  to be used for drawing other multiplyer planes ?

You probably don't need all of that -- just place it like any other 3D
model using FGModelMgr.


All the best,


David

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] multitex investigation

2002-11-05 Thread Andy Ross
Roman Grigoriev wrote:
 ok it's done at startup but if we want to have landing lights moves
 we have generate second texture coordinates in realtime please give
 me hint where in flightgear it can be done? in tileentry?

I'm not the right person to answer questions about the scenery tile
subsystem, but you are aware of OpenGL's texgen features for doing
realtime texture coordinates, right?  If you set things up right,
texgen will generate the texture coordinates for you dynamically from
the vertex coordinates on the GPU, with no significant loss of
performance.

Andy

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] 747-yasim Questions

2002-11-05 Thread Andy Ross
Tony Peden wrote:
 BTW, you will rarely see the c.g. used as a reference point for
 dimensions on aircraft.  First of all, it moves in flight.  Second of
 all, it's very difficult to actually point to its location.

That's my intuition too.  David is correct, though, that most
lightplane POH's use a nominal center of gravity as the origin for
their weight  balance tables.  The front seat is N meters in front,
the fuel tank is M meters behind, etc...

But still, the goal here is to make communication between 3D artists
and aero modellers easy, not necessarily to adhere to pre-existing
conventions.  An artist using Blender is much more likely to be
working from a 3-view or a photograph; the c.g. isn't marked on these.

Picking an easily recognized spot on the airframe seems like the best
convention.  Whether that be the nose or not, I don't much care.
Other good choices would be the nose gear base, wing root, tail, top
of the vertical stabilizer, etc...  The nose seemed straightforward to
me.

In this case, the simplest solution is to bring up the 747 model in a
(registered) copy of AC3D, drag it around so the nose tip lies exactly
on the origin, and save it.  I can do all but the last step. :)

Andy

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] 747-yasim Questions

2002-11-05 Thread Tony Peden

--- Andy Ross [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Tony Peden wrote:
  BTW, you will rarely see the c.g. used as a reference point for
  dimensions on aircraft.  First of all, it moves in flight.  Second
 of
  all, it's very difficult to actually point to its location.
 
 That's my intuition too.  David is correct, though, that most
 lightplane POH's use a nominal center of gravity as the origin for
 their weight  balance tables.  The front seat is N meters in front,
 the fuel tank is M meters behind, etc...

Hmm, I thought he said just the opposite.

At any rate, Cessna does not use a nominal CG for weight and balance in
the POH.  They use the lower forward face of the firewall.

 
 But still, the goal here is to make communication between 3D artists
 and aero modellers easy, not necessarily to adhere to pre-existing
 conventions.  An artist using Blender is much more likely to be
 working from a 3-view or a photograph; the c.g. isn't marked on
 these.
 
 Picking an easily recognized spot on the airframe seems like the best
 convention.  Whether that be the nose or not, I don't much care.
 Other good choices would be the nose gear base, wing root, tail, top
 of the vertical stabilizer, etc...  The nose seemed straightforward
 to
 me.
 
 In this case, the simplest solution is to bring up the 747 model in a
 (registered) copy of AC3D, drag it around so the nose tip lies
 exactly
 on the origin, and save it.  I can do all but the last step. :)

But all the FDM's (AFAIK) are still pumping out position info for the
CG, so if the model uses this point to rotate about, then the model
won't look right (without doing some additional math).


 
 Andy
 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] 747-yasim Questions

2002-11-05 Thread Martin Spott
 In this case, the simplest solution is to bring up the 747 model in a
 (registered) copy of AC3D, drag it around so the nose tip lies exactly
 on the origin, and save it.  I can do all but the last step. :)

I could do nthing - but the last step. AC3D on SGI IRIX is free and
unsupported - it has the necessary 'save' option in the 'file' menu and it
appears to work.
Unfortunately I never had the time to get to know AC3D 

Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] 747-yasim Questions

2002-11-05 Thread John Check
On Tuesday 05 November 2002 3:14 pm, Jim Wilson wrote:

 When the 3D model origin is set at the nose or cockpit, the aircraft is too
 far back on the runway at startup.  So far back that the main gear is not
 on the pavement.  It looks stupid.  Even as it is currently, it sits too
 far back.  If we can agree how to fix that problem,  then I can make the
 adjustments to the 3D model.


That's really because the startup position is based on a smaller aircraft 
though, isn't it? Is the code taking into consideration the size of the 
plane? Is that even reported in a consistent manner?



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] 747-yasim Questions

2002-11-05 Thread Andy Ross
Jim Wilson wrote:
 When the 3D model origin is set at the nose or cockpit, the aircraft
 is too far back on the runway at startup.  So far back that the main
 gear is not on the pavement.  It looks stupid.

Ah, now I think I understand what you mean.  I agree, the model
placement looks dumb.  But it's correctly dumb.  If we were modeling
off-runway ground handling, the aircraft would be bouncing (or
sinking!) because YASim really *does* think the aircraft is off the
runway.  Moving the model origin only fixes the problem on the screen.

The bug you are trying to fix is in the runway placement
initialization code, not the model geometry.  Right now it puts the
origin just barely past the threshold, which is fine for light planes
but not for jumbo jets.

Even if you were going to try to do the Right Thing, you would have to
deal with aircraft geometry.  Real aircraft pull onto the runway with
their nosegear on the taxi lines, and have to pull forward by
different amounts depending on their gear geometry.  Just moving the
aircraft origin will never be sufficient.

I agree, we need a per-aircraft runway startup offset (which would
basically be the length of the fuselage).  Alternatively, we could
pick the *tail* of the aircraft as the coordinate origin.  That would
behave correctly under these conditions.

Andy

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] 747-yasim Questions

2002-11-05 Thread burrito

I have been flying with the 747-yasim for short while now, and I also have a
few questions.

Is fuel consumption modeled in yasim, or will it ever be? Lots of fuel in
the tanks could also
cause problems with landing right? I have tried landing several times but
always bounce off
the runway.

Also, sometimes setting the flaps around 20-30 degs can cause the plane to
shoot thousands
of feet into the air. Has anyone else noticed this?

Is there any documentation on the 3d cockpits, or any information I can have
about them?
I was originally interested in creating a 2d panel but of course a 3d
cockpit would work
a lot better for the 747 cockpit.

Thanks alot!
Jack


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] 747-yasim Questions

2002-11-05 Thread Andy Ross
Burrito Jack wrote:
 Is fuel consumption modeled in yasim, or will it ever be?

Someday. :) Right now, you can use --prop:/sim/fuel-fraction=0.2 to
get an appropriate landing weight.  Really, this would be very simple.
Like I've said, I'm lazy.

To be honest, I don't usually fly cross country in FlightGear.  I'll
set up the aircraft for whatever I want to practice (vertical landings
in the Harrier are my most recent addiction) and just do the
interesting parts.  Fuel consumption ends up being superfluous under
those circumstances.

 Lots of fuel in the tanks could also cause problems with landing
 right? I have tried landing several times but always bounce off the
 runway.

Lots of fuel will cause fast approach speeds, which are more difficult
and could result in bounced landings.  But there's an honest bug with
ground effect that is probably causing your real problem.  I
(literally) just checked a fix for this into CVS.  Can you try that
and see if it fixes things for you?

 Also, sometimes setting the flaps around 20-30 degs can cause the
 plane to shoot thousands of feet into the air. Has anyone else noticed
 this?

Which version are you using?  There were sporadic reports of this sort
of behavior about six months ago, and I thought it was due to a flap
drag bug that has since been fixed (maybe in 0.7.8 or 0.7.9).  The way
to exercise it was to (1) be going very fast (300+ kts); (2) be at a
significant negative AoA; and (3) pop the flaps.  The flap drag could
end up pointing in the wrong direction and producing thrust
proportional to speed; the aircraft would then speed up and produce
more thrust, and the airspeed would diverge.  Like I said, I think
this has been fixed.

Andy

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Clickable 3D panel

2002-11-05 Thread Andy Ross
I wrote:
 Jim Wilson wrote:
  How hard would it be to have a property that toggles hotspot
  visibility?  It'd be nice to be able to turn it on and have yellow
  rectangles show up on the hotspots...

 That's not a bad idea.

It's actually an astoundingly good idea, and implementable over lunch
to boot. :)

Try the attached patch, which predicates the boxes on the
/sim/panel-hotspots property.  I mapped a toggle event on this to a
spare joystick button, and had fun. :)

Andy

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 - Sting (misquoted)

Index: panel.hxx
===
RCS file: /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/FlightGear/src/Cockpit/panel.hxx,v
retrieving revision 1.2
diff -u -r1.2 panel.hxx
--- panel.hxx   29 Oct 2002 19:44:03 -  1.2
+++ panel.hxx   5 Nov 2002 21:38:59 -
@@ -370,6 +370,7 @@
   virtual ~FGPanelInstrument ();
 
   virtual void draw () = 0;
+  virtual void drawHotspots();
 
   virtual void setPosition(int x, int y);
   virtual void setSize(int w, int h);
Index: panel.cxx
===
RCS file: /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/FlightGear/src/Cockpit/panel.cxx,v
retrieving revision 1.3
diff -u -r1.3 panel.cxx
--- panel.cxx   29 Oct 2002 19:44:03 -  1.3
+++ panel.cxx   5 Nov 2002 21:38:59 -
@@ -436,6 +436,21 @@
 glPopMatrix();
   }
 
+  // Draw yellow hotspots if directed to.  This is a panel authoring
+  // feature; not intended to be high performance or to look good.
+  if(fgGetBool(/sim/panel-hotspots)) {
+glPushAttrib(GL_ALL_ATTRIB_BITS);
+glDisable(GL_DEPTH_TEST);
+glDisable(GL_TEXTURE_2D);
+glColor3f(1, 1, 0);
+
+for(int i=0; i_instruments.size(); i++)
+  _instruments[i]-drawHotspots();
+
+glPopAttrib();
+  }
+
+
   // restore some original state
   glPopAttrib();
   glPolygonOffset(0, 0);
@@ -647,6 +662,25 @@
it++) {
 delete *it;
 *it = 0;
+  }
+}
+
+void
+FGPanelInstrument::drawHotspots()
+{
+  for(int i=0; i_actions.size(); i++) {
+FGPanelAction* a = _actions[i];
+float x1 = getXPos() + a-getX();
+float x2 = x1 + a-getWidth();
+float y1 = getYPos() + a-getY();
+float y2 = y1 + a-getHeight();
+
+glBegin(GL_LINE_LOOP);
+glVertex2f(x1, y1);
+glVertex2f(x1, y2);
+glVertex2f(x2, y2);
+glVertex2f(x2, y1);
+glEnd();
   }
 }
 



RE: [Flightgear-devel] Clickable 3D panel

2002-11-05 Thread Michael Basler
Andy,

 Try the attached patch, which predicates the boxes on the
 /sim/panel-hotspots property.  I mapped a toggle event on this to a
 spare joystick button, and had fun. :)

Up until we'll have that pretty menu system soon ;-) would it be hard to
bind a spare key to this by default?

Sincerely, Michael

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Clickable 3D panel

2002-11-05 Thread Andy Ross
Michael Basler wrote:
 Andy Ross wrote:
  Try the attached patch, which predicates the boxes on the
  /sim/panel-hotspots property.  I mapped a toggle event on this to a
  spare joystick button, and had fun. :)

 Up until we'll have that pretty menu system soon ;-) would it be hard to
 bind a spare key to this by default?

The toggling bit was mostly a joke. :)

This is really only useful to people designing and debugging panels,
and they're not likely to decide to do that in the middle of a long
flight.  They'll start up fgfs with a --prop:/sim/panel-hotspots=1 on
the command line, edit their panels, and do a reset to see their
changes.  Unless there are applications for this feature that I don't
see, they'll never want to turn the feature on and off interactively.

There are a limited number of keys available.  IMHO, panel hotspots
aren't important enough to a general user to justify getting a key
assigned to them by default.  As you said, a menu option would make a
lot more sense.

Andy

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] 747-yasim Questions

2002-11-05 Thread Jim Wilson
burrito [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

 Is fuel consumption modeled in yasim, or will it ever be? Lots of fuel in
 the tanks could also
 cause problems with landing right? I have tried landing several times but
 always bounce off
 the runway.

It should be possible to land even with ack! full tanks.  I've done it
several times.  It seems that it isn't possible to dump fuel.  You can bring
up the property browser on the menu and look at the fuel/ path.

 Also, sometimes setting the flaps around 20-30 degs can cause the plane to
 shoot thousands of feet into the air. Has anyone else noticed this?

What version are you running (the proper flap modeling has been completed for
several months now)?  Keep in mind you have to be flying reasonably slow and
adjust your nose down when deploying flaps.

 Is there any documentation on the 3d cockpits, or any information I can 
 have about them?

So far they've all been done in ac3d or blender and converted to ac3d as part
of the external model.  If you are talking about the instrument panels, those
are 2D panels, with the exception of the j3cub instruments which were all done
in ac3d file format.  Take a look at README.xmlpanel in docs-mini directory of
the distribution for info on the 2D panel.  Take a look at 
http://www.flightgear.org/Docs/fgfs-model-howto.html for information on 
animating 3D instruments.

 I was originally interested in creating a 2d panel but of course a 3d
 cockpit would work a lot better for the 747 cockpit.
 
I started one last summer and have quite a bit of info.  Basically I put it
aside until this winter because it became apparent that I need to get better
at modeling and it is going to take a lot of time.

Best,

Jim


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] 747-yasim Questions

2002-11-05 Thread Jim Wilson
Andy Ross [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

 I agree, we need a per-aircraft runway startup offset (which would
 basically be the length of the fuselage).  Alternatively, we could
 pick the *tail* of the aircraft as the coordinate origin.  That would
 behave correctly under these conditions.
 

One advantage of switching to the tail would be that just about any aircraft
would position reasonably on the runway without special configuration.   Don't
know if there are any disadvantages.

I do have a licensed AC3D here, so once a decision is made the 747 and A-4
models will be fixed.

Best,

Jim

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] 747-yasim Questions

2002-11-05 Thread David Megginson
Jim Wilson writes:

  One advantage of switching to the tail would be that just about any
  aircraft would position reasonably on the runway without special
  configuration.  Don't know if there are any disadvantages.

I think that's the wrong reason to make the choice -- it's a permanent
kludge to solve a temporary problem.  We need to configure
per-aircraft anyway, so that the 747 doesn't start on the 1500ft
grass runway instead of the 12000ft concrete one.

  I do have a licensed AC3D here, so once a decision is made the 747
  and A-4 models will be fixed.

For these two, it's easy -- use the same origin that Andy used.  For
models used by both JSBSim and YASim, we'll have to coordinate.


All the best,


David

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[Flightgear-devel] screen-shot

2002-11-05 Thread paul mccann
Hi all:

I have been working (a little) on trying to make the hsi look like a 
real one, here is a link to a screen shot of it.  I still need to add 
the index marks on the bezel. 
http://members.verizon.net/~vze3b42n/fgfs-screen-001.jpeg

Paul


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] 747-yasim Questions

2002-11-05 Thread Manuel Bessler
On Mon, Nov 04, 2002 at 09:24:43AM -0800, Andy Ross wrote:
 Cool, someone's playing with the 747.  This model hasn't had a lot of
 tweaking yet beyond the engine thrust bugs that Jim Wilson dealt with
 a few months back.

Hey, the 747 is the queen of the sky :-)

   Does it model the thrust reversers ?
   What about Speedbrakes/Spoilers ?
 
 No, no, yes.  The spoilers control is mapped to the /controls/spoilers
 property, which doesn't have a default input binding.  I have it wired
 to one of the thumbwheels on my Saitek throttle.

ok, thats cool. I'll just add a key mapping for the spoilers.
I didn't even think of snooping around to see wether there is
any 'functionality' that I could use and map it to a key.


 Thrust reversers and speedbrakes wouldn't be hard to support, I've
 just been lazy.  The Boeing obviously doesn't have a speedbrake, but
 the A-4 and Harrier should.  There are still some (much harder) issues
 with drag scaling that I'd like to get fixed first.  None of the
 planes need a brake right now, since they all sit way behind the power
 curve during approach and dump speed really fast.

BTW: What is the difference between Speedbrakes and Spoilers?
Some stuff i was reading about the 747 made it seem to me that
the speedbrake lever in the cockpit controls the spoiler surfaces.
... Actually  on the cockpit photos I found on the web (eg
www.airliners.net) there is a lever that is labeled 'speed brake'.
Its the one right next to the #1 Throttle, on the pilots side.


   Bouncing:
 Part of this is due to a blindingly stupid bug with ground effect that
 I discovered this weekend.  It should interpolate the effect from zero

Is there a way I could apply this to 0.8.0 which I currently have?


 Another factor is the lack of automatic wing spoiler deployment, which
 helps a lot to keep the airplane from getting airborne again after a
 hard landing.  This would require just a tiny amount of C++ code right
 now: watch the /gear[n]/wow properties and set the /controls/spoilers
 to 1.0 when they transition from false to true.  This would be a great
 application for interactive scripting from the aircraft definition; a
 feature that has been long talked about but not yet moved on.

I played around with the telnet interface and also with fgfsscript.pl
I tried to use fgfsscript.pl to get the radio altimeter announcements
during approach... but its hard to make this work right, since the
polling nature of fgfsscript.pl and since the feet values change rather
quickly. So I must allow for a certain 'window' of feet values around
those I want announced. Tuning this just right is a lot of work.

 And finally, I agree.  The default gear damping is a little too light.
 YASim computes a default damping coefficient automatically, based on
 the weight of the plane and the placement of the gear.  But it's not
 going to work perfectly for all aircraft.  There needs to be a
 per-gear tunable for spring and damping coefficients, but there isn't
 yet.  This is like the reversers/speedbrakes issue -- something
 unimplemented only due to my laziness.

Well, laziness is actually a good character 'flaw' for programmers. :-)
Thats the same with me ;-)

... But, back on the topic... so ... when are you gonna implement these 
'due to laziness' features Grin ;-) 

 Well, pumping the brakes during the takeoff is hardly standard
 procedure; I'm not sure what the real aircraft would do. :) The

Well, I was trying to 'emulate' the parking brakes by keeping 'b'
pressed, advancing the throttle and wait a little for the thrust to
develop. 

 joystick trigger is mapped to the wheel brakes, by the way.  You can

Yeah, I know, but I don't use a joystick to fly. Mouse and keyboard work 
well (actually: better) for me. I like the mouse yoke. And esp. the
mapping of the elev. trim to the mousewheel :-)


 The wheel bounce issue is real, though.  In my copy, I got better
 results by changing the compression distance of the nose wheel strut
 from 2m to 1m in the Aircraft-yasim/747.xml file.  This has the effect

I'm gonna try this. thanks.

  (BTW: the parking brake doesn't seem to work w/ the 747)
 Uh, true.  This is trivial to fix, just add a mapping from the parking
 brake property in the 747.xml file.  Everywhere you see:

I should have thought about this ... that was an easy one :-)

 I suppose I could wire up an eye candy starter, which spooled the
 engine up and down from zero while diddling the temperature and fuel
 flow variables in a vaguely plausible way.  But features like
 realistic engine start aren't possible for this code; they'll need to
 wait for someone with the patience and dedication to model one
 specific engine (and electrical system, and APU, and...). :)

From what I read on the list, Curt started adding support for electrical
systems, and people talked also about pneumatic and hydraulic systems...
This will hopefully provide a more 'realistic' way of starting
procedures in the future.

But a fake eye candy 

Re: [Flightgear-devel] 747-yasim Questions

2002-11-05 Thread Andy Ross
Manuel Bessler wrote:
 BTW: What is the difference between Speedbrakes and Spoilers?

Typically spoilers refer only to flaps on the top of a wing.  They
spoil the lift generated and allow the plane to fly at a higher angle
of attack for the same lift, and thus descend more steeply (or remain
on the ground after landing).  They also create a little drag of their
own, but that is not their primary purpose.

A speedbrake, on the other hand, is a pure drag device.  Most of them
are just flat plates that pop up when deployed.  The A-4 has one on
either side of the tail, and the Harrier has one on its underbelly.
These things don't do anything but create drag.

In the context of jetliners, I've seen the terms used interchangably
to mean what I'm calling spoilers.

  Part of this is due to a blindingly stupid bug with ground effect that
  I discovered this weekend.

 Is there a way I could apply this to 0.8.0 which I currently have?

Only by bugging Curt to make a new release. :)

To be fair, building FlightGear from CVS really is no harder than
building the source tarballs.

Andy

--
Andrew J. RossNextBus Information Systems
Senior Software Engineer  Emeryville, CA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.nextbus.com
Men go crazy in conflagrations.  They only get better one by one.
 - Sting (misquoted)


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] multitex investigation

2002-11-05 Thread Roman Grigoriev

- Original Message -
From: Andy Ross [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 9:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] multitex investigation


 Roman Grigoriev wrote:
  ok it's done at startup but if we want to have landing lights moves
  we have generate second texture coordinates in realtime please give
  me hint where in flightgear it can be done? in tileentry?

 I'm not the right person to answer questions about the scenery tile
 subsystem, but you are aware of OpenGL's texgen features for doing
 realtime texture coordinates, right?  If you set things up right,
 texgen will generate the texture coordinates for you dynamically from
 the vertex coordinates on the GPU, with no significant loss of
 performance.

Andy texgen don't work here because we need dinamically calculate lightmap
texture coordinates using some formulas
I'm working now on light lobes of aircraft.
Think that it will be really nice
But I can't understand why Steve refuse add multitex support code from
Marten Stromberg to PLIB
It took us ages to wait OpenGL2.0 and shaders. PSL is not suitable for that.
Roman


 Andy

 --
 Andrew J. RossNextBus Information Systems
 Senior Software Engineer  Emeryville, CA
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.nextbus.com
 Men go crazy in conflagrations.  They only get better one by one.
  - Sting (misquoted)


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[Flightgear-devel] Re : Opengl

2002-11-05 Thread Danie Heath
Title: Message



Hey 
guys,

I so desperately 
want to help you guys, but it's one of those time issues.

One of the projects 
I help with, is a site full of Opengl tutorials. Go to www.sulaco.co.za . If you guys 
ever need any help with any Opengl issues, feel free to contact me directly 


Regards

Danie Heath
Software 
Integrator
RisC Com cc
+27 12 654 5100
083 412 6904
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.risccom.co.za



[Flightgear-devel] rmi

2002-11-05 Thread paul mccann
Hi

Pretty much done messing with the hsi, but also moved the rmi to the adf 
position on the c310 2d panel.  Makes the adf approaches much easier and 
is what the original hsi designer probably had in mind.  The c172 
instrument panel is perfect the way it is for ifr work, but for ifr in 
the c310 I think this set-up will work better than the previous panel if 
any one interested.

Screenshot is on approach into anchorage, and if you look at adf/rmi you 
see the heading matches up with the hsi heading , and the adf needle is 
pointing back at the outer marker.  

http://members.verizon.net/~vze3b42n/fgfs-screen-002.jpeg

Paul


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