Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: bo104 - patch
On Monday 09 August 2004 17:13, Melchior FRANZ wrote: * Gunnstein Lye -- Monday 09 August 2004 16:35: Seriously though, it seems the problem here is that most, but not all, find it logical to map the up/down behaviour of a collective to the backward/forward motion of a joystick (or joystick throttle). There is no right or wrong here, as there is no logical way to translate Y-axis movement to the Z-axis. Yes, there is: pull - raise, push - sink. It doesn't matter how the joystick is mounted. This is the right and realistic way. The other may be consistent with fixed wing and newbie friendly, but fgfs' goal is realism. It's not a game, but a simulator after all. I'm tending more and more to revert today's patch. Okay, for joystick throttles I agree with you. (Although personally I would go for the second joystick option.) For buttons, on the other hand, I think up should mean up. Solution: make the default whatever most people agree on, but make it easy to invert, as in X-Plane where you have an invert button next to each joystick axis. That was my first solution, but the patch was rejected (please not yet another property). I inverted the collective axis in the YASim config then. Too bad. -- best regards, Gunnstein Lye Systems engineer [EMAIL PROTECTED] | eZ systems | ez.no ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Re: bo104 - patch
* Gunnstein Lye -- Tuesday 10 August 2004 10:18: On Monday 09 August 2004 17:13, Melchior FRANZ wrote: pull - raise, push - sink. It doesn't matter how the joystick is mounted. This is the right and realistic way. The other may be consistent with fixed wing and newbie friendly, but fgfs' goal is realism. It's not a game, but a simulator after all. Okay, for joystick throttles I agree with you. (Although personally I would go for the second joystick option.) A second joystick would be nice, or even one that looks and feels like a real helicopter collective, with throttle twist grip etc. But the lever on my Saitek Cyborg 3D Gold is quite OK. I'm glad I don't have to use a Micros~1 joystick with horizontally mounted throttle wheel. I'm not sure if a reversed throttle collective is intuitive there. For buttons, on the other hand, I think up should mean up. Too late. I asked Erik already to revert that part of the last patch. The rest will remain, especially the initialization to least pitch angle for keyboard pilots. The next time the collective discussion breaks loose, it should be about a property ... That was my first solution, but the patch was rejected (please not yet another property). I inverted the collective axis in the YASim config then. Too bad. Maybe we'll get some more user feedback. The release of the ec130 may motivate more people to fly helicopters. In the end a property might be necessary. Now, if only we had someone to finish YASim's missing helicopter FDM parts, and fix the bugs. Hey, or what about a JSBSim helicopter? :-) m. PS: there never was a bo104, btw ( AFAIK). But it's worth to mention the other Boelkow helictopters: http://www.helis.com/50s/h_bo1023.php, http://www.hubschraubermuseum.de/Hubschraubermuseum_Buckeburg/Archiv/Bolkow_Entwicklungen_KG/Bolkow_BO_46/bo-46_01.JPG, http://www.246.ne.jp/~heli-ss/Bo108.jpg ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: bo104 - patch
Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 16:57:24 +0200, Melchior wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Yes, that's widely known. But nobody would seriously assume that anywhere the collective lever is pushed down to raise, and pulled up to sink. ..heh, precicely this is done by many R/C heli pilots. ;-) R/C pilots use to have a long standing culture discussing how to to do it 'right' :-) To my knowledge there are mostly two parties: Those who know at least a little bit how things work on a real helicopter and thos who don't. You even can convince some of the second group to try a change by letting them sit im a real heli Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: bo104 - patch
Martin Spott said: Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 16:57:24 +0200, Melchior wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Yes, that's widely known. But nobody would seriously assume that anywhere the collective lever is pushed down to raise, and pulled up to sink. ..heh, precicely this is done by many R/C heli pilots. ;-) R/C pilots use to have a long standing culture discussing how to to do it 'right' :-) To my knowledge there are mostly two parties: Those who know at least a little bit how things work on a real helicopter and thos who don't. You even can convince some of the second group to try a change by letting them sit im a real heli Mostly, but how about a third party that knows what a collective lever looks like, realizes that the joystick looks nothing remotely like one and thinks that binding the keyboard one way and the joystick the other way is not a good idea. My preference would probably be Alex's original patch. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: bo104 - patch
On Monday 09 August 2004 15:22, Jim Wilson wrote: Martin Spott said: Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 16:57:24 +0200, Melchior wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Yes, that's widely known. But nobody would seriously assume that anywhere the collective lever is pushed down to raise, and pulled up to sink. ..heh, precicely this is done by many R/C heli pilots. ;-) R/C pilots use to have a long standing culture discussing how to to do it 'right' :-) To my knowledge there are mostly two parties: Those who know at least a little bit how things work on a real helicopter and thos who don't. You even can convince some of the second group to try a change by letting them sit im a real heli Mostly, but how about a third party that knows what a collective lever looks like, realizes that the joystick looks nothing remotely like one and thinks that binding the keyboard one way and the joystick the other way is not a good idea. My preference would probably be Alex's original patch. Buy a second joystick, and mount it horizontally next to your chair. It should make a decent collective, and would double as a hand brake for rally sims =) Seriously though, it seems the problem here is that most, but not all, find it logical to map the up/down behaviour of a collective to the backward/forward motion of a joystick (or joystick throttle). There is no right or wrong here, as there is no logical way to translate Y-axis movement to the Z-axis. Solution: make the default whatever most people agree on, but make it easy to invert, as in X-Plane where you have an invert button next to each joystick axis. -- best regards, Gunnstein Lye Systems engineer [EMAIL PROTECTED] | eZ systems | ez.no ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: bo104 - patch
On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 12:49:37 + (UTC), Martin wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 16:57:24 +0200, Melchior wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Yes, that's widely known. But nobody would seriously assume that anywhere the collective lever is pushed down to raise, and pulled up to sink. ..heh, precicely this is done by many R/C heli pilots. ;-) R/C pilots use to have a long standing culture discussing how to to do it 'right' :-) To my knowledge there are mostly two parties: Those who know at least a little bit how things work on a real helicopter and thos who don't. You even can convince some of the second group to try a change by letting them sit im a real heli ...like we didn't have enough wars already. ;-) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: bo104 - patch
Jim Wilson wrote: My preference would probably be Alex's original patch. _My_ preference would be to put as default what the BO-maintainer prefers as his _personal_ choice and add an optional property, reverting the default behaviour, that every user can put into his ~/.fgfsrc When we've got this done we can start a second discussion on how the hud should behave like :-) Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Re: bo104 - patch
* Gunnstein Lye -- Monday 09 August 2004 16:35: Seriously though, it seems the problem here is that most, but not all, find it logical to map the up/down behaviour of a collective to the backward/forward motion of a joystick (or joystick throttle). There is no right or wrong here, as there is no logical way to translate Y-axis movement to the Z-axis. Yes, there is: pull - raise, push - sink. It doesn't matter how the joystick is mounted. This is the right and realistic way. The other may be consistent with fixed wing and newbie friendly, but fgfs' goal is realism. It's not a game, but a simulator after all. I'm tending more and more to revert today's patch. Solution: make the default whatever most people agree on, but make it easy to invert, as in X-Plane where you have an invert button next to each joystick axis. That was my first solution, but the patch was rejected (please not yet another property). I inverted the collective axis in the YASim config then. m. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Re: bo104 - patch
* Martin Spott -- Monday 09 August 2004 17:07: _My_ preference would be to put as default what the BO-maintainer prefers as his _personal_ My preference would be that this is consistent with all future helicopters, so it wouldn't really my choice alone. But our main goal is and should be realism (i.e. inverted throttle for the collective). auto-coordination is also more user friendly than a separate rudder, but nobody would argue that auto-coordination should be the default. So far we have only one user who disagrees with realistic collective, so we might not even need a property. Just revert part of today's patch. :-) m. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Re: bo104 - patch
Melchior FRANZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So far we have only one user who disagrees with realistic collective, so we might not even need a property. Just revert part of today's patch. :-) i am not the only one who disagrees with the realistic collective (but you can choose to ignore any messages you don't agree with). but to tell you the truth, i don't really care. i know enough to configure fgfs to do what _i_ want. one could argue that flying a helicopter using the keyboard is not realistic. nevertheless, i find it very confusing pressing PageUp to go down, and vice versa. also, i always use the HUD and to see the throttle indicator go down when i want to go up is one more source of confusion. sorry to have brought this up. --alex-- -- | I believe the moment is at hand when, by a paranoiac and active | | advance of the mind, it will be possible (simultaneously with | | automatism and other passive states) to systematize confusion | | and thus to help to discredit completely the world of reality. | ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Re: bo104 - patch
* Jeff Sinsay -- Saturday 07 August 2004 16:28: Yes indeed, when looking from the top down American Helicopters rotate-counter clockwise, while European/Russian Helis rotate clockwise. Yes, that's widely known. But nobody would seriously assume that anywhere the collective lever is pushed down to raise, and pulled up to sink. And that's what we were talking about. And implying that Austria would do it that braindead way isn't exactly friendly. (And that's even ignoring the fact that the bo was mostly built in Germany.) But anyway. ;-) m. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: bo104 - patch
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 16:57:24 +0200, Melchior wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: * Jeff Sinsay -- Saturday 07 August 2004 16:28: Yes indeed, when looking from the top down American Helicopters rotate-counter clockwise, while European/Russian Helis rotate clockwise. Yes, that's widely known. But nobody would seriously assume that anywhere the collective lever is pushed down to raise, and pulled up to sink. ..heh, precicely this is done by many R/C heli pilots. ;-) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
