Re: [Flightgear-devel] Depth percepted cockpit
In agreement with that here. I was impressed by the video and I think it would definitely be very effective to implement this depth perception, but it would not magically give you side windows. The monitor is a fixed viewport (window) into the virtual world, and moving your head around only lets you see into that viewport from different angles. Judging by his demo, the effect would be dramatic and very useful, but it wouldn't do away with needing to rotate or translate the virtual head (aka viewport). If, however, one had say 3 screens you could get a first approximation at a cockpit with side windows. Rather large blind spots, but it could work. Goggles with full head tracking would be even cooler, but it seems like this definitely has the potential to be cheaper. Wiis aren't overly cheap, but something could be constructed for quite cheap by a DIY enthusiast with too much time and some electronics knowledge. Hook it up with a serial port, write a simple driver, et voila you have all the data you need to do it in flightgear probably even today, like someone said. If anyone comes up with cheap plans to that effect I'd love to try it out. I don't have the electronics knowledge to come up with it, but I could help code the driver (linux). On Feb 1, 2008 12:59 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think I have to emphasize this: There are two heads: Your real one in front of the monitor and the virtual one inside the planes cockpit (aka camera position). The idea is, to translate the virtual head according to the translations of your real head in front of your monitor, thus leading to the shown depth perception. Of course the virtual head can't follow every translation the real head can do, because usually a office is bigger than a cockpit. But its not to discover your cockpit from new exciting perspectives, it's to provide you a depth perception. So the virtual camera has strong constraints in the extend of its translation. Consider it as a maximum of 25 cm in each direction around the default position. So you won't be able to discover your leg room, to lean out of the window or to examine your flightsticks back! It should just use your head shaking to provide you a depth perception. Not more, not less. Regards, Joe -- Pt! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Hans Fugal - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Depth percepted cockpit
On Sat, 2008-02-02 at 22:11 -0700, Hans Fugal wrote: Goggles with full head tracking would be even cooler, but it seems like this definitely has the potential to be cheaper. Wiis aren't overly cheap, but something could be constructed for quite cheap by a DIY enthusiast with too much time and some electronics knowledge. I belive all you would need is a usb cam that is supported by the v4l drivers and an infared pass filter (all ccd cams are ir sensitive) to replace the wii controller. the rest is software Jason - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Depth percepted cockpit
Quoting Heiko Schulz : I have to disagree. Look at Detelef's Albatross - you can walk inside the aircraft- it is very easy to do, so this depth perception would be a very cool feature against X-Plane and MSFS! Do you mean you are going to build a replica of the Albatross cabin, and put a LCD monitor where the windows should be ? If I understand this film correctly, the technique use the screen as a window to a wider ( open ) space ( the stadium in that case ). You have to actually *move* to have the perception of the parallax around a fixed frame. Look at the video : the guy doesn't stay seated in front of his TV set. For a static perception of 3D, use stereo images and dedicated goggles. -Fred -- Frédéric Bouvier http://my.fotolia.com/frfoto/ Photo gallery - album photo http://fgsd.sourceforge.net/ FlightGear Scenery Designer - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Depth percepted cockpit
--- Frederic Bouvier [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Selon joe: Hi! Again me with a proposal! ;) Some time ago this video was quite popular: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw It shows a simple headtracking system which creates an impressive depth perception with a common flat screen. Since most cockpits of FGFS are real 3D, I am quite excited about if I think about being able to experience the cockpit in a perfect 3D depth perception by moving my head around. Don't miss the sequence at 3:35, showing a huge stadium (aka scenery ;)). I know it's a long way to this, but I just felt the urge to point you to it. Maybe in a couple of years the time has come to include something like this in fgfs. Regards, Joe This video is impressive. Thank for sharing. Head tracking has already been discussed on this list, though. The device in question was trackIR instead of the wiimote. Looking this video, the solution proposed doesn't seem to apply to a flight simulator. In a cockpit, you are seated in front of your yoke and you are not moving around. You look *from* a fixed position, you are not looking *at* a fixed position. So you need a device that can detect head rotations, and not head translations. Except if you want to provide user the experience of a passenger moving in the plane and looking at a single window ;-) -Fred -- Hi, I have to disagree. Look at Detelef's Albatross - you can walk inside the aircraft- it is very easy to do, so this depth perception would be a very cool feature against X-Plane and MSFS! Regards HHS still in work: http://www.hoerbird.net/galerie.html But already done: http://www.hoerbird.net/reisen.html Heute schon einen Blick in die Zukunft von E-Mails wagen? Versuchen Sie´s mit dem neuen Yahoo! Mail. www.yahoo.de/mail - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Depth percepted cockpit
--- Frederic Bouvier [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Quoting Heiko Schulz : I have to disagree. Look at Detelef's Albatross - you can walk inside the aircraft- it is very easy to do, so this depth perception would be a very cool feature against X-Plane and MSFS! Do you mean you are going to build a replica of the Albatross cabin, and put a LCD monitor where the windows should be ? If I understand this film correctly, the technique use the screen as a window to a wider ( open ) space ( the stadium in that case ). You have to actually *move* to have the perception of the parallax around a fixed frame. Look at the video : the guy doesn't stay seated in front of his TV set. For a static perception of 3D, use stereo images and dedicated goggles. -Fred -- The albatross is bad example for that, but it is the first aircraft with this feature. But for John's 747-Cockpit-project it would be fit. Regards still in work: http://www.hoerbird.net/galerie.html But already done: http://www.hoerbird.net/reisen.html Heute schon einen Blick in die Zukunft von E-Mails wagen? www.yahoo.de/mail - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Depth percepted cockpit
I think I have to emphasize this: There are two heads: Your real one in front of the monitor and the virtual one inside the planes cockpit (aka camera position). The idea is, to translate the virtual head according to the translations of your real head in front of your monitor, thus leading to the shown depth perception. Of course the virtual head can't follow every translation the real head can do, because usually a office is bigger than a cockpit. But its not to discover your cockpit from new exciting perspectives, it's to provide you a depth perception. So the virtual camera has strong constraints in the extend of its translation. Consider it as a maximum of 25 cm in each direction around the default position. So you won't be able to discover your leg room, to lean out of the window or to examine your flightsticks back! It should just use your head shaking to provide you a depth perception. Not more, not less. Regards, Joe -- Pt! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Depth percepted cockpit
Hi Joacher, a very interesting and promising idea. Is the needed hardware available separately? If yes: how much does it cost? Maik [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb am 01.02.2008 20:59: I think I have to emphasize this: There are two heads: Your real one in front of the monitor and the virtual one inside the planes cockpit (aka camera position). The idea is, to translate the virtual head according to the translations of your real head in front of your monitor, thus leading to the shown depth perception. Of course the virtual head can't follow every translation the real head can do, because usually a office is bigger than a cockpit. But its not to discover your cockpit from new exciting perspectives, it's to provide you a depth perception. So the virtual camera has strong constraints in the extend of its translation. Consider it as a maximum of 25 cm in each direction around the default position. So you won't be able to discover your leg room, to lean out of the window or to examine your flightsticks back! It should just use your head shaking to provide you a depth perception. Not more, not less. Regards, Joe - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Depth percepted cockpit
Hi! Again me with a proposal! ;) Some time ago this video was quite popular: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw It shows a simple headtracking system which creates an impressive depth perception with a common flat screen. Since most cockpits of FGFS are real 3D, I am quite excited about if I think about being able to experience the cockpit in a perfect 3D depth perception by moving my head around. Don't miss the sequence at 3:35, showing a huge stadium (aka scenery ;)). I know it's a long way to this, but I just felt the urge to point you to it. Maybe in a couple of years the time has come to include something like this in fgfs. Regards, Joe PS.: If this is well known to you yet - I am sorry. -- Der GMX SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen! Ideal für Modem und ISDN: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Depth percepted cockpit
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw It shows a simple headtracking system which creates an impressive depth perception with a common flat screen. Wow, I'd never thought you'd get that much depth perception just from a flat screen without doing any per-eye rendering. :) I know it's a long way to this, but I just felt the urge to point you to it. Maybe in a couple of years the time has come to include something like this in fgfs. Actually, unless his software is doing some extra tricky projection calculations or something I think FlightGear have everything needed to do this. With the generic IO and some Nasal one can easily move the view center and direction in response to external data. I have some very primitive experiments in that direction here: http://www.gidenstam.org/FlightGear/HeadTracking/ My main problem is that I don't have any good tracking hardware (and that I have forgot anything I might have known about 3d transformations..). Cheers, Anders -- --- Anders Gidenstam mail: anders(at)gidenstam.org WWW: http://www.gidenstam.org/FlightGear/JSBSim-LTA/ - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Depth percepted cockpit
Selon joe: Hi! Again me with a proposal! ;) Some time ago this video was quite popular: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw It shows a simple headtracking system which creates an impressive depth perception with a common flat screen. Since most cockpits of FGFS are real 3D, I am quite excited about if I think about being able to experience the cockpit in a perfect 3D depth perception by moving my head around. Don't miss the sequence at 3:35, showing a huge stadium (aka scenery ;)). I know it's a long way to this, but I just felt the urge to point you to it. Maybe in a couple of years the time has come to include something like this in fgfs. Regards, Joe This video is impressive. Thank for sharing. Head tracking has already been discussed on this list, though. The device in question was trackIR instead of the wiimote. Looking this video, the solution proposed doesn't seem to apply to a flight simulator. In a cockpit, you are seated in front of your yoke and you are not moving around. You look *from* a fixed position, you are not looking *at* a fixed position. So you need a device that can detect head rotations, and not head translations. Except if you want to provide user the experience of a passenger moving in the plane and looking at a single window ;-) -Fred -- Frédéric Bouvier http://my.fotolia.com/frfoto/ Photo gallery - album photo http://fgsd.sourceforge.net/ FlightGear Scenery Designer - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Depth percepted cockpit
Frederic Bouvier wrote: Selon joe: Hi! Again me with a proposal! ;) Some time ago this video was quite popular: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw It shows a simple headtracking system which creates an impressive depth perception with a common flat screen. Since most cockpits of FGFS are real 3D, I am quite excited about if I think about being able to experience the cockpit in a perfect 3D depth perception by moving my head around. Don't miss the sequence at 3:35, showing a huge stadium (aka scenery ;)). I know it's a long way to this, but I just felt the urge to point you to it. Maybe in a couple of years the time has come to include something like this in fgfs. Regards, Joe This video is impressive. Thank for sharing. Head tracking has already been discussed on this list, though. The device in question was trackIR instead of the wiimote. Looking this video, the solution proposed doesn't seem to apply to a flight simulator. In a cockpit, you are seated in front of your yoke and you are not moving around. You look *from* a fixed position, you are not looking *at* a fixed position. So you need a device that can detect head rotations, and not head translations. Except if you want to provide user the experience of a passenger moving in the plane and looking at a single window ;-) -Fred Sorry Fred, I disagree, In a cockpit you move your head as in the reality, some time just small moves from your shoulders, depending on your emotions, your gesture (like tunning the radio), or with more ample moves of you neck when you try to see if a traffic isn't hidden behind the cockpit frame or before engaging a step turn in a thermal. You are *not* looking from a fixed position. Even with tightened harness. What should be unrealistic is panning down the view when you lower the head down to the keyboard or mouse. What is really needed is looking down on the side as when you try to catch a mark or look under to see the ground trafic when you are vertical of an airfield (ok, airliner pilots don't do that). I know that head tracking wont improve the perception of the outside scenery as would do a 'per eye' system and in that matter you are right Fred. Then Joe is perfectly right with 3D cockpit experience, they would be really impressive with such a 3D effect. But again, the move tracking should be limited to translations. Let me explain my (translating) point of view : For a single screen display, with option for secondary displays not showing the FG world : Rotations should be done only with a manual input so the focus stay on your flight track even when you are looking for a pencil on your desk or when you turn the head to your secondary screen displaying Atlas. Then the move to show what is behind the cockpit frame or to improve your view on the lower sides could be done with a combination of rotation manual input and translation tracked input. In our case, (flight simulator) head rotation tracking isn't a good thing as when you turn your head you don't look any more at your screen. And pan the focus with small head rotation moves (to show the sides of the cockpit or scan the sky) will transform the experience in a nightmare. The ideal behaviour of such a system will certainly not follow exactly the real movement of our head and should be designed to improve our capacity to scan the sky as would do a glider pilot or take marks as an acrobatics pilot, but *only* on demand. By the way, improving the immersion feeling in the cockpit with 3D view is just a 'plus' for now, it will certainly be a 'must' in the next years. Greetings, Alexis - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
