Re: [Flightgear-devel] Local Weather menu structure
Am 22.01.2012 21:27, schrieb Stuart Buchanan: On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 5:34 PM, Torsten Dreyer wrote: And I just pushed that to FGDATA. Global Weather and Local Weather is dead. Long live Basic Weather and Advanced Weather :-) Thanks Torsten. That looks great. BTW, if this change is merged into the 2.6.0 branch, we should also include commit a38820828c5343dbcb77d97a65597d736c845ff4, which removes a now-redundant reference to the local_weather_tiles menu item. I've also made the co-requisite change to The Manual (773db8825336521c42fd4d0edb22ca2d1bcc06ea) that should also be merged. I have just cherry-picked the Basic/Advanced Weather patches into release/2.6.0 - including Stuarts change to local_weather.nas. We don't have release branches for the getstart repository (The Manual), so there is nothing to merge/pick there. Torsten -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Local Weather menu structure: Wind settings
Hello, I just faild to set the wind speed and direction in the new weather menue structure (up to date next-branch). My intention was to set the wind profile from ground up to 3000ft. Hence I used the Basic Weather menue and set the desired values in the table. But I found that I got the wind speed and direction from the Advanced Weather Menue instead. Is this a bug/feature or am I simply to stupid to set the values correctly? BTW: I'm totally impressed by the capabilities of the weather system, especially for glider pilots. I must admit that the weather system is a big motivation for me to keep up the development of a hangglider for FlightGear. Up to now the results are very promising. Soaring feels very realistic! Best regards D-NXKT -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Local Weather menu structure: Wind settings
I just faild to set the wind speed and direction in the new weather menue structure (up to date next-branch). My intention was to set the wind profile from ground up to 3000ft. Hence I used the Basic Weather menue and set the desired values in the table. But I found that I got the wind speed and direction from the Advanced Weather Menue instead. Is this a bug/feature or am I simply to stupid to set the values correctly? Not sure what exactly you were trying to do. When you run Advanced Weather, it always uses its own wind model - it can't know what you entered in the Basic Weather config dialog and it doesn't care - we're not so far along the road to a merged weather system (if you were running Basic weather and it was ignoring its own config, that'd be a bug though). Advanced Weather has a few wind modes - constant (wind is the same everywhere), constant in tile (wind is the same in each chunk of 40x40 km, but may change between tiles), aloft interpolated (wind is interpolated based on the values entered in the wind dialog which is visible when you press 'show winds' and aloft waypoints (wind is interpolated based on a set of vectors both in altitude and in position - this is *very* cumbersome to enter manually and intended to run with online weather). Even the aloft interpolated modes don't allow you to select an arbitrary wind profile though, the low altitude interpolation altitude values are always 0, 5000 ft and 1 ft (this choice made following advice from TorstenD who had plans to get online aloft winds automatically in this format, something which isn't implemented yet), so you can only have a linear profile between these altitudes. The system doesn't allow you to specify wind conditions in the boundary layer, because it wants to compute them itself. You get a boundary layer which adapts to terrain roughness and local elevation, for instance there is no boundary layer slowdown of winds at mountaintops, and significantly less on upper mountain slopes than on the ground (which is somewhat important for ridge lift to work properly), boundary layer slowdown is far less pronounced over open water than in mountain terrain,... I suspect you were interested in specifying especially this region? In case you want to do something to the boundary layer computation, you'd have to dig into the code, this can't be done from config. Hope that helps. BTW: I'm totally impressed by the capabilities of the weather system, especially for glider pilots. I must admit that the weather system is a big motivation for me to keep up the development of a hangglider for FlightGear. Up to now the results are very promising. Soaring feels very realistic! Thanks. There's a lot of real life glider flying experience behind the convective cloud system and the thermals :-) If I find the time (which doesn't happen too often) I enjoy going cross-country with the ASK-13 very much. Like in real life, there are all sorts of surprises which can happen, and I always find mountain-soaring very exciting. Still need to implement that wave lift model at some point... Cheers, * Thorsten -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Local Weather menu structure
The change is releatively small but I'd feel better if ThorstenR tested it before it gets picked. The menu structure works like a charm - I think the switching button is a very elegant solution. I did a couple of tests yesterday, and I didn't run into any problems here. I've also had a look at the impostor code. I tried a benchmark situation with some thin, detailed (= many cloudlets) and hence framerate-expensive layers to gauge the effect. It didn't really even work to set up the benchmark properly. * in sunrise/sunset conditions, I could see the impostors. They don't inherit the lighting from the shader, so they were showing up with the wrong colors which didn't look very natural, but at least there was something visible * in noon conditions, I couldn't even really see the impostors, as they were so faint and the sudden change in layer properties from visible to faint clouds was rather drastic * using the basic weather clouds, the differences where not quite as drastic and I could see the impostors, but I could still see quite well where the impostors started * under no conditions was I able to detect any significant framerate gain - just maybe something like 32 fps vs 30 fps, but that may have been driven by other factors - I think that agrees pretty well with Stuart's findings. So, I think that's functionality which is better left optional - it doesn't seem to do an equally good job for all cloud types, and the framerate gain doesn't seem to be there for everyone. Cheers, * Thorsten -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Local Weather menu structure
I am hesitating from picking this into the release branch as one could argue if that was a bug fix. But if it's general consensus that this a an improvement that should make it into the release, we should do it. The change is releatively small but I'd feel better if ThorstenR tested it before it gets picked. Since the sunrise work is finished, I will catch up with master today and test a few things (I rather suspect that the water shader/environment interface may be rendered non-functional by some recent developments...). I'll also give the impostors a good try. BTW, if this change is merged into the 2.6.0 branch, we should also include commit a38820828c5343dbcb77d97a65597d736c845ff4, which removes a now-redundant reference to the local_weather_tiles menu item. I'm hoping this is local_weather_config.xml... local_weather_tiles.xml is actually the relevant menu :-) If nobody sees any issues, I would argue for deleting the menu itm also in the release branch, because a non-functioning menu can be considered a bug in my book. I also plan to make a list of by now obsolete files and textures. I'm too late for the release (I had this in mind a while ago, but the 6 weeks without computer really threw my schedule off the track), but I think it's useful to do some housekeeping. * Thorsten -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Local Weather menu structure
On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Thorsten Renk wrote: Stuart Buchanan wrote: BTW, if this change is merged into the 2.6.0 branch, we should also include commit a38820828c5343dbcb77d97a65597d736c845ff4, which removes a now-redundant reference to the local_weather_tiles menu item. I'm hoping this is local_weather_config.xml... local_weather_tiles.xml is actually the relevant menu :-) local_weather_tiles.xml is the dialog, which remains, and is referenced from the new Weather menu item. There used to be a menu item called local_weather_tiles (which also referred to the local_weather_tiles.xml dialog), which is no-longer used and was being enabled/disabled. The menu item local_weather_config has also been removed. -Stuart -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Local Weather menu structure
So, let's add a Advanced-- button to the global weather dialog which closes the global-weather dialog, enabled local weather and opens the local weather dialog. In return, the local-weather dialog gets a Basic-- button which disables local weather, closes the local-weather-dialog and opens the global-weather-dialog. This sounds very convincing to me - I'm in favour of this solution. And we'd like to go that road further anyway :-) And I just pushed that to FGDATA. Global Weather and Local Weather is dead. Long live Basic Weather and Advanced Weather :-) Torsten -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Local Weather menu structure
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 5:34 PM, Torsten Dreyer wrote: And I just pushed that to FGDATA. Global Weather and Local Weather is dead. Long live Basic Weather and Advanced Weather :-) Thanks Torsten. That looks great. BTW, if this change is merged into the 2.6.0 branch, we should also include commit a38820828c5343dbcb77d97a65597d736c845ff4, which removes a now-redundant reference to the local_weather_tiles menu item. I've also made the co-requisite change to The Manual (773db8825336521c42fd4d0edb22ca2d1bcc06ea) that should also be merged. -Stuart -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Local Weather menu structure
Am 22.01.2012 21:27, schrieb Stuart Buchanan: On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 5:34 PM, Torsten Dreyer wrote: And I just pushed that to FGDATA. Global Weather and Local Weather is dead. Long live Basic Weather and Advanced Weather :-) Thanks Torsten. That looks great. BTW, if this change is merged into the 2.6.0 branch, we should also include commit a38820828c5343dbcb77d97a65597d736c845ff4, which removes a now-redundant reference to the local_weather_tiles menu item. I've also made the co-requisite change to The Manual (773db8825336521c42fd4d0edb22ca2d1bcc06ea) that should also be merged. Ah - thanks. I wasn't aware of that line of code. We should make sure, ThorstenR has backported that into his codebase when commiting a new version from him. I am hesitating from picking this into the release branch as one could argue if that was a bug fix. But if it's general consensus that this a an improvement that should make it into the release, we should do it. The change is releatively small but I'd feel better if ThorstenR tested it before it gets picked. Torsten -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Local Weather menu structure
Just an idea: as global and local weather are mutually exclusive, what about having just one single weather menu item and add button in each, global and local weather dialog causing the current dialog disappear and open the other dialog. While we are at it, I'd like to rename global and local weather to basic and advanced weather. So, let's add a Advanced-- button to the global weather dialog which closes the global-weather dialog, enabled local weather and opens the local weather dialog. In return, the local-weather dialog gets a Basic-- button which disables local weather, closes the local-weather-dialog and opens the global-weather-dialog. This sounds very convincing to me - I'm in favour of this solution. And we'd like to go that road further anyway :-) * Thorsten -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Local Weather menu structure
My GIT is now a week old, but in all likelihood this hasn't changed and is in the release branch: In reaction to concerns about a confusing menu structure, I moved all relevant configurations to /gui/dialogs/local_weather_tiles.xml (insofar as they are not controlled by the rendering dialog, which now affects e.g. cloud visibility range). This means that the second dialog /gui/dialogs/local_weather_config.xml contains only obsolete options - with one important exception, which is the checkbox determining if the Local Weather Nasal module is loaded. This cannot simply be moved to the other menu, because it also de-activates the 'Local Weather' menu item, so if it is deactivated, the only option (short of the property browser) to activate the menu would be on the deactivated dialog. I don't know what the solution should be, but I don't think the current state of offering a configuration dialog which doesn't affect anything is very good for a release. On the other hand, it should be clearly recognizable that the Nasal module has to be loaded before the system becomes functional. If anyone of those who originally suggested that the config menu is removed could please take care of this? * Thorsten -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Local Weather menu structure
On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Thorsten Renk wrote: My GIT is now a week old, but in all likelihood this hasn't changed and is in the release branch: In reaction to concerns about a confusing menu structure, I moved all relevant configurations to /gui/dialogs/local_weather_tiles.xml (insofar as they are not controlled by the rendering dialog, which now affects e.g. cloud visibility range). This means that the second dialog /gui/dialogs/local_weather_config.xml contains only obsolete options - with one important exception, which is the checkbox determining if the Local Weather Nasal module is loaded. This cannot simply be moved to the other menu, because it also de-activates the 'Local Weather' menu item, so if it is deactivated, the only option (short of the property browser) to activate the menu would be on the deactivated dialog. I don't know what the solution should be, but I don't think the current state of offering a configuration dialog which doesn't affect anything is very good for a release. On the other hand, it should be clearly recognizable that the Nasal module has to be loaded before the system becomes functional. If anyone of those who originally suggested that the config menu is removed could please take care of this? It's not clear from your mail whether the local_weather_config dialog in the release branch can be removed once this checkbox issues is resolved. Can you confirm? Also, I noticed that there's another local_weather.xml dialog under gui/dialogs that appears to be obsolete. Can you confirm that it can be deleted? I'd suggest moving the /nasal/local_weather/enabled checkbox to the top of the tiles dialog, and disabling the rest of the dialog when this is not set. That way the dialog can be available at all times, while users will not be able to set any local weather config without enabling it. Does that sound like a good solution to you? I'm happy to take a look at making this change later today. It should be very straightforward. I don't know whether this change should be in the release or not. It's pretty late in the day. -Stuart -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Local Weather menu structure
On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Stuart Buchanan wrote: Also, I noticed that there's another local_weather.xml dialog under gui/dialogs that appears to be obsolete. Can you confirm that it can be deleted? Scratch that - I've just noticed this is used in the Debug menu. -Stuart -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Local Weather menu structure
It's not clear from your mail whether the local_weather_config dialog in the release branch can be removed once this checkbox issues is resolved. Can you confirm? I haven't actually tried if removing it causes an error somewhere, but it's not needed any more - all functions are either shifted to the other menu or don't affect anything any more. So my recommendation is indeed to remove it. I'd suggest moving the /nasal/local_weather/enabled checkbox to the top of the tiles dialog, and disabling the rest of the dialog when this is not set. That way the dialog can be available at all times, while users will not be able to set any local weather config without enabling it. Does that sound like a good solution to you? Would work fine, except that for me a checkbox to (de-)activate a dialog that way always caused errors (I tried at some point it to block inconsistent options on the GUI level, and I always ended up with garbage) - maybe I did it wrongly though. Cheers, * Thorsten -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Local Weather menu structure
I don't know what the solution should be, but I don't think the current state of offering a configuration dialog which doesn't affect anything is very good for a release. On the other hand, it should be clearly recognizable that the Nasal module has to be loaded before the system becomes functional. If anyone of those who originally suggested that the config menu is removed could please take care of this? Just an idea: as global and local weather are mutually exclusive, what about having just one single weather menu item and add button in each, global and local weather dialog causing the current dialog disappear and open the other dialog. While we are at it, I'd like to rename global and local weather to basic and advanced weather. So, let's add a Advanced-- button to the global weather dialog which closes the global-weather dialog, enabled local weather and opens the local weather dialog. In return, the local-weather dialog gets a Basic-- button which disables local weather, closes the local-weather-dialog and opens the global-weather-dialog. Our first simple step into a unified weather ;-) Torsten -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Local weather: menu structure
The local weather menu option is first before the other local weather options. This does open up a dialog box where you do have to create clouds 1-by-1. Looking at this, it appears that the intent of this is more for debugging. Maybe it would make sense to move this option over to the debugging menu if that is the case? That's actually a good point and I was about to ask a similar thing for the release version. The main use of the 'Local Weather' menu item is development. I use it when I introduce a new texture to test which cloud spacing, which degree of randomness and such things a layer composed of these clouds needs to look natural - once I have the parameters, I code a Nasal call to the same effect. It's also useful for benchmark tests because it allows to create a well-defined configuration of clouds. Finally, at some point Patrice Poly used it when he did some experiments with hires textures as an easy way to test how the extracted textures look in the scenery. It doesn't really have user applications or debug value. So my original suggestion would have been to rename 'Local Weather Tiles' to 'Local Weather' and to comment out the current 'Local Weather' in the menubar.xml. The small number of people who may actually need it for development can then simply edit menubar.xml and have it again, the rest doesn't need to see it, because it is confusing. However, if someone sees value in having it in the debug section or somewhere else, then I suggest to move it. In addition, I have the strong feeling a good and intuitive gui cannot be designed by the developer of the underlying code. I've realized a few times already that I know far too much about the inner workings of the code to even think of trying some things, which others simply do. So if anyone has too much time and wants to work on a better gui, please let me know! Cheers, * Thorsten -- Enable your software for Intel(R) Active Management Technology to meet the growing manageability and security demands of your customers. Businesses are taking advantage of Intel(R) vPro (TM) technology - will your software be a part of the solution? Download the Intel(R) Manageability Checker today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devmar ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Local weather: menu structure
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 7:44 AM, Thorsten Renk wrote: The local weather menu option is first before the other local weather options. This does open up a dialog box where you do have to create clouds 1-by-1. Looking at this, it appears that the intent of this is more for debugging. Maybe it would make sense to move this option over to the debugging menu if that is the case? That's actually a good point and I was about to ask a similar thing for the release version. The main use of the 'Local Weather' menu item is development. I use it when I introduce a new texture to test which cloud spacing, which degree of randomness and such things a layer composed of these clouds needs to look natural - once I have the parameters, I code a Nasal call to the same effect. It's also useful for benchmark tests because it allows to create a well-defined configuration of clouds. Finally, at some point Patrice Poly used it when he did some experiments with hires textures as an easy way to test how the extracted textures look in the scenery. It doesn't really have user applications or debug value. So my original suggestion would have been to rename 'Local Weather Tiles' to 'Local Weather' and to comment out the current 'Local Weather' in the menubar.xml. The small number of people who may actually need it for development can then simply edit menubar.xml and have it again, the rest doesn't need to see it, because it is confusing. However, if someone sees value in having it in the debug section or somewhere else, then I suggest to move it. I prefer the idea of renaming and moving, rather than commenting out in the menubar.xml file. I think there is value in retaining the dialog for those interested in creating new cloud layers in the future, so having it in the Debug menu makes sense (though perhaps Debug should be renamed Development). The Debug menu is not used by most users, and is not documented in the manual, so I don't see any problem in adding it there, even if it won't be used regularly. -Stuart -- Enable your software for Intel(R) Active Management Technology to meet the growing manageability and security demands of your customers. Businesses are taking advantage of Intel(R) vPro (TM) technology - will your software be a part of the solution? Download the Intel(R) Manageability Checker today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devmar ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
