[Flightgear-devel] VOR shack : scenery model upgrade opportunity
Hi Folks FG puts a model of a VOR shack into the scenery in places where there is supposed to be a VOR shack. So far so good. The problem is, the model seems awfully small. It looks like it is about 5 meters in diameter. I've never seen one in RL that is that small. I've seen them sometimes with twice that diameter and more often with three times that diameter. If you want more data on this, measure some of them using Google maps / satellite view. These things are rather important if you want realism. In the vicinity of a VOR shack, in VFR conditions, pilots really should not be looking at the CDI needle; they should be looking out the window so they don't run into the idiot who *is* only looking at the CDI needle. Having an easily-visible VOR shack model helps with this. There are other useful uses for VOR shacks. Would somebody be kind enough to make a bigger model, or at least in the interim triple the diameter of the existing model? Thanks! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] VOR shack : scenery model upgrade opportunity
John Denker wrote: Hi Folks FG puts a model of a VOR shack into the scenery in places where there is supposed to be a VOR shack. So far so good. The problem is, the model seems awfully small. It looks like it is about 5 meters in diameter. I've never seen one in RL that is that small. I've seen them sometimes with twice that diameter and more often with three times that diameter. If you want more data on this, measure some of them using Google maps / satellite view. These things are rather important if you want realism. In the vicinity of a VOR shack, in VFR conditions, pilots really should not be looking at the CDI needle; they should be looking out the window so they don't run into the idiot who *is* only looking at the CDI needle. Having an easily-visible VOR shack model helps with this. There are other useful uses for VOR shacks. Would somebody be kind enough to make a bigger model, or at least in the interim triple the diameter of the existing model? Send me a model, I'll update the database. AFAIK though ther eare currently 2 models in the db, and one at least was modeled on a real VOR. Jon -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] VOR shack : scenery model upgrade opportunity
John Denker wrote: Hi Folks FG puts a model of a VOR shack into the scenery in places where there is supposed to be a VOR shack. So far so good. The problem is, the model seems awfully small. It looks like it is about 5 meters in diameter. I've never seen one in RL that is that small. I've seen them sometimes with twice that diameter and more often with three times that diameter. If you want more data on this, measure some of them using Google maps / satellite view. I've modeled them after these images in the past: http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s63/tundratantrum/kotzebuevortac1.jpg http://www.dot.state.mn.us/aero/avoffice/navaids/images/vor3.jpg http://members.chello.nl/vdleije/pics/ssj_vor.jpg It might have been a bad choice though.. Erik -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] VOR shack : scenery model upgrade opportunity
On 01/02/2009 01:01 PM, Erik Hofman wrote: I've modeled them after these images in the past: http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s63/tundratantrum/kotzebuevortac1.jpg http://www.dot.state.mn.us/aero/avoffice/navaids/images/vor3.jpg http://members.chello.nl/vdleije/pics/ssj_vor.jpg Wow, those are small. It might have been a bad choice though.. Obviously there's considerable variability. I have no idea how to determine what style is used in any given location. Here's a picture of a rather bigger one. I've seen plenty of them that look roughly like this. I reckon the door is 2 m tall and the disk is 12 m in diameter. http://www.thtech.net/images/databanks/towerhunt/46-1-big.jpg == What form are the original models in? Are they available? -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] VOR shack : scenery model upgrade opportunity
On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 2:32 PM, John Denker wrote: On 01/02/2009 01:01 PM, Erik Hofman wrote: I've modeled them after these images in the past: http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s63/tundratantrum/kotzebuevortac1.jpg http://www.dot.state.mn.us/aero/avoffice/navaids/images/vor3.jpg http://members.chello.nl/vdleije/pics/ssj_vor.jpg Wow, those are small. I can say from personal experience that Gopher (GEP, 117.30) is really tough to spot from the air. Of course you are talking to a guy who gets lost after about the first 30 seconds after take off (assuming I don't look out the window sooner than that, in which case I'd be lost sooner.) :-) Curt. -- Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] VOR shack : scenery model upgrade opportunity
Putting on my aluminium foil hat, I'll point out that there are five combinations of VOR/DME/TACAN even before you decide whether it is going to be monitored locally and whether the earth has repeatable conductivity to act as a ground plane. These decisions change what gets physically installed ... it may be worth us having multiple models available. On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Jon Stockill li...@stockill.net wrote: John Denker wrote: Hi Folks FG puts a model of a VOR shack into the scenery in places where there is supposed to be a VOR shack. So far so good. The problem is, the model seems awfully small. It looks like it is about 5 meters in diameter. I've never seen one in RL that is that small. I've seen them sometimes with twice that diameter and more often with three times that diameter. If you want more data on this, measure some of them using Google maps / satellite view. These things are rather important if you want realism. In the vicinity of a VOR shack, in VFR conditions, pilots really should not be looking at the CDI needle; they should be looking out the window so they don't run into the idiot who *is* only looking at the CDI needle. Having an easily-visible VOR shack model helps with this. There are other useful uses for VOR shacks. Would somebody be kind enough to make a bigger model, or at least in the interim triple the diameter of the existing model? Send me a model, I'll update the database. AFAIK though ther eare currently 2 models in the db, and one at least was modeled on a real VOR. Jon -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] VOR shack : scenery model upgrade opportunity
On 01/02/2009 01:37 PM, Curtis Olson wrote: I can say from personal experience that Gopher (GEP, 117.30) is really tough to spot from the air. Here's the picture: http://www.google.com/maps?ll=45.145694,-93.373194spn=0.012077,0.018539t=hz=16 If I'm measuring it properly, it's even bigger than the previous one I mentioned. The disk appears to be 17 m in diameter. This supports the notion that we need some much larger VOR shack models. Here's one that's *not* hard to spot. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=qhl=enie=UTF8ll=42.221311,-87.951474spn=0.001232,0.002843t=hz=19 The groundplane disk is 150 feet in diameter. On 01/02/2009 01:04 PM, Alex Perry wrote: ... it may be worth us having multiple models available. That sure would be nice ... But then we need decide what goes where. I don't know where to get that kind of data. Here's a proposal: 0) If somebody has actual data, use that; otherwise: 1) Put 17m diameter shacks in enroute locations. 2) Put 12m diamater shacks in on airport locations. Anybody got a better idea? -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] VOR shack : scenery model upgrade opportunity
On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 1:10 PM, John Denker j...@av8n.com wrote: Here's a proposal: 0) If somebody has actual data, use that; otherwise: 1) Put 17m diameter shacks in enroute locations. 2) Put 12m diamater shacks in on airport locations. Anybody got a better idea? Here is a derivative idea. There are several classes of VOR (irrespective of the other radio services that might be colocated) which determine what the receivable range is ... and whether they're usable for jet routes. That change in transmitter power may be a defining factor for how big the shack is. -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] VOR shack : scenery model upgrade opportunity
Alex Perry wrote: Here is a derivative idea. There are several classes of VOR (irrespective of the other radio services that might be colocated) which determine what the receivable range is ... and whether they're usable for jet routes. That change in transmitter power may be a defining factor for how big the shack is. If we have range data available then we can use that to select an appropriate model too. Jon -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] VOR shack : scenery model upgrade opportunity
John Denker wrote: Obviously there's considerable variability. I have no idea how to determine what style is used in any given location. Pass by and take pictures of each individual station. The size/type of the respective housing is usually not recorded anywhere. http://www.thtech.net/images/databanks/towerhunt/46-1-big.jpg This shape is quite uncommon on the continent where I live, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] VOR shack : scenery model upgrade opportunity
--- On Fri, 1/2/09, Erik Hofman e...@ehofman.com wrote: From: Erik Hofman e...@ehofman.com Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] VOR shack : scenery model upgrade opportunity To: FlightGear developers discussions flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 2:01 PM John Denker wrote: Hi Folks FG puts a model of a VOR shack into the scenery in places where there is supposed to be a VOR shack. So far so good. The problem is, the model seems awfully small. It looks like it is about 5 meters in diameter. I've never seen one in RL that is that small. I've seen them sometimes with twice that diameter and more often with three times that diameter. If you want more data on this, measure some of them using Google maps / satellite view. I've modeled them after these images in the past: http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s63/tundratantrum/kotzebuevortac1.jpg http://www.dot.state.mn.us/aero/avoffice/navaids/images/vor3.jpg http://members.chello.nl/vdleije/pics/ssj_vor.jpg It might have been a bad choice though.. Erik -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel http://scenemodels.flightgear.org/modeledit.php?id=39 vordme_1 http://scenemodels.flightgear.org/modeledit.php?id=615 vordme_2 vordme_1 is the default VOR/DME model for FlightGear. I don't know it's history. I modeled vordme_2. It is modeled after VOR/DME OSH. Located at KOSH airport. I used photographs to estimate it's dimensions. vordme_2 is positioned at VOR/DME OSH and VOR/DME SFO. SFO is the one at KSFO airport. It is not the correct model for SFO. If someone can provide pictures and dimensions for SFO I will model it for FlightGear. Best Regards, Paul B coulee...@yahoo.com -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] VOR shack : scenery model upgrade opportunity
On 01/02/2009 05:33 PM, Bohnert Paul wrote: http://scenemodels.flightgear.org/modeledit.php?id=39 vordme_1 http://scenemodels.flightgear.org/modeledit.php?id=615 vordme_2 1) Thanks for the points. 2) For folks without edit passwords, the following is more useful: http://scenemodels.flightgear.org/modelbrowser.php?shared=12 vordme_1 is the default VOR/DME model for FlightGear. I don't know it's history. That can serve as a model for tiny VOR shacks, but those seem to be rare in the US, although FHU VOR is tiny; see below I modeled vordme_2. It is modeled after VOR/DME OSH. Located at KOSH airport. Very nice. I used photographs to estimate it's dimensions. These days you can google the critical dimension i.e. diameter. Tiny: FHU http://www.google.com/maps?f=qie=UTF8ll=31.589978,-110.345204spn=0.003646,0.004635t=hz=18 Medium: SFO http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=37.61953,-122.374024spn=0.000848,0.001159t=hz=20 Large: GEP http://www.google.com/maps?ll=45.145694,-93.373194spn=0.012077,0.018539t=hz=16 COL http://www.google.com/maps?q=+39.8156++-74.4316 Huge: JFK http://www.google.com/maps?ll=40.632867,-73.771576spn=0.001624,0.002317t=hz=17 Monstrous OKB http://maps.google.com/maps?f=qhl=enie=UTF8ll=42.221311,-87.951474spn=0.001232,0.002843t=hz=19 My conclusions bases on what I see are: FHU Tiny -1 model OK SFO Medium -2 model OK GEP Large should switch to larger version of -2 model COL Large ditto JFK Huge could switch to much larger version of -2 model although for now I'd be happy to lump it in with the merely large VORs OKB Monstrous maybe a project for another day vordme_2 is positioned at VOR/DME OSH and VOR/DME SFO. SFO is the one at KSFO airport. It is not the correct model for SFO. It looks OK to me. It looks nice, and it's pretty much the right size. What's not to like? If someone can provide pictures and dimensions for SFO I will model it for FlightGear. IMHO the most reward per unit effort would be a) start by making a scaled-up version of the -2 model, scaled up to about 17 meter diameter b) in parallel with that, somebody could add the code to choose the VOR model based on range as tabulated in nav.dat As before, for the US at least the proposal is: if actual size data, .. use actual data else if range = 100 .. 17 m shack large (scaled up -2) else if range = 35 .. 12 m shack medium (-2) else .. 5 m shack tiny (-1) -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
