Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
it may be self promotion but he only has one page in the book. i'm just trying to be fair and am not sure that i'm succeeding. i think the question was, 'had he ever written a positive post?' and that was the one i remembered. i just hate all this adversity about stuff; the energy could be so much better put to the fluxbox #2. i am sorry if i offended maddawg but there are many subscribers getting fluxlist in digest or are on limited time on their internet service so for them to have to delete 55 one line posts is a real problem. for myself it was just irritating and the holidays don't help that. so just saying 'use the delete' is rather cavalier. when i work with the high school computer group here in taos i post a page callled netiquette but i have been under the impression that even if someone was still in high school their being interested in this list would indicate a certain amount of sophistication. and also i'm not the one who is the administrator, who by the way has my full supposrt in all he has done with this sorry mess. enough already, carol on to the box! Ann Klefstad wrote: On 1/3/03 10:32 AM, "Carol Starr" [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > hi ann, > > the following post resulted in my buying said book in which tamas was > included. Smells like self-promotion to me. I have yet to remember or see anything that is positive that he sent to the list that is not in some way self-promotion, self-obsession. He called you boring. You are not boring. He is bored. There is a difference. He has so very little grace in his writings, so little generosity, so little curiosity about anyone different from him, at least as evidenced in his contributions to this list. AK > > excellent book btw. i have had doubts about taking him off the list though not > about the others. > he said i am boring and i thought about it and he is probably right from his > point of view. after all i live in a little place far removed from the crush > of > civilization and i am primarily a painter. so it gave me some interesting > thoughts. just wanted to let you know he has contributed at least this one > positive post and probably more. > > bests, carol > > > "St.Auby Tamas" wrote: > >> H, >> >> the STRIKE book is a catalog of >> the STRIKE-exposition in Wolverhampton Art Gallery, England, >> 14 September - 9 November 2002. >> It contains texts by more than 100 >> artists related to the subject. >> --- >> The 'STRIKE book' (2002, Alberta Press London) >> ISBN 3-88375-637-7 >> can be ordered from >> Cornerhouse >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> Distribution Germany: >> Buchhandlung Walter Konig >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> --- >> You can also buy copies at cost price direct from >> GAVIN WADE >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> 42 Rolt Street, Deptford >> London, SE8 5NL >> 0208-691-0786 ph/fax >> 07976-403696 >> --- >> Probably best off buying the book from Franz Koenig at >> The Serpentine Gallery Bookshop. >> You can contact him by email: >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> and he can sort out the payment, posting etc. >> >> 7.50 each. >> >> H, >> a > > > > Ann Klefstad wrote: > >> Ok, Bertrand, after years of reading insults on this list, I wanted to at >> least model some insults that could be amusing, in at least some way. Eric's >> utterly-in-earnest character assassination of Ken was horrible to read, day >> after day; it was also horrible to see Ken attempt to engage with it when it >> so patently could not be engaged; it has been awful to see the repressed mr >> tamas mistake bile for freedom (it must be that repressive school system--); >> it has been awful to have mr death spewing away and awful to see the >> resemblance his automatic negativity had to other nastiness in the past on >> the list. So truly, perhaps allen acted peremptorily and perhaps the list >> should now reconsider, but I would say that such reconsideration should be >> based on what the individuals in qustion have contributed (or not): Could we >> do a search of the archives and post on a site the "collected works" of >> each, and, reading them through in their totality, determine whether either >> has ever said anything on the list that was not self-interested to the point >> of obsession, thoughtless, or vengeful? I am ever so willing to be proven >> wrong. Could we do this, and then vote on the question? >> >> I think, myself, that both of these characters should be, and perhaps will >> be, ashamed to read the sum total of their posts to this list. If I had >> written what they did, I certainly would be. It's not a question of >> "sounding different." It's a question of taking away others' powers of >> expression through slander, insult, innuendo, and other verbal nastiness. >> >> And by the way, "curdled" usually refers to milk--when it curdles it goes >> off, it spoils. Metaphorically in context it means when something good is >> transformed into something
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
and i just broke the rules by sending a post with the past three exchanges on it. noticed it after i read it on fluxlist. sorry. Carol Starr wrote: when i work with the high school computer group here in taos i post a page callled netiquette
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
Ok, Bertrand, after years of reading insults on this list, I wanted to at least model some insults that could be amusing, in at least some way. Eric's utterly-in-earnest character assassination of Ken was horrible to read, day after day; it was also horrible to see Ken attempt to engage with it when it so patently could not be engaged; it has been awful to see the repressed mr tamas mistake bile for freedom (it must be that repressive school system--); it has been awful to have mr death spewing away and awful to see the resemblance his automatic negativity had to other nastiness in the past on the list. So truly, perhaps allen acted peremptorily and perhaps the list should now reconsider, but I would say that such reconsideration should be based on what the individuals in qustion have contributed (or not): Could we do a search of the archives and post on a site the collected works of each, and, reading them through in their totality, determine whether either has ever said anything on the list that was not self-interested to the point of obsession, thoughtless, or vengeful? I am ever so willing to be proven wrong. Could we do this, and then vote on the question? I think, myself, that both of these characters should be, and perhaps will be, ashamed to read the sum total of their posts to this list. If I had written what they did, I certainly would be. It's not a question of sounding different. It's a question of taking away others' powers of expression through slander, insult, innuendo, and other verbal nastiness. And by the way, curdled usually refers to milk--when it curdles it goes off, it spoils. Metaphorically in context it means when something good is transformed into something bad--also, incidentally, goes from liquid to solid. Turns lumpish. AK
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
hi ann, the following post resulted in my buying said book in which tamas was included. excellent book btw. i have had doubts about taking him off the list though not about the others. he said i am boring and i thought about it and he is probably right from his point of view. after all i live in a little place far removed from the crush of civilization and i am primarily a painter. so it gave me some interesting thoughts. just wanted to let you know he has contributed at least this one positive post and probably more. bests, carol St.Auby Tamas wrote: H, the STRIKE book is a catalog of the STRIKE-exposition in Wolverhampton Art Gallery, England, 14 September - 9 November 2002. It contains texts by more than 100 artists related to the subject. --- The 'STRIKE book' (2002, Alberta Press London) ISBN 3-88375-637-7 can be ordered from Cornerhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] Distribution Germany: Buchhandlung Walter Konig [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You can also buy copies at cost price direct from GAVIN WADE [EMAIL PROTECTED] 42 Rolt Street, Deptford London, SE8 5NL 0208-691-0786 ph/fax 07976-403696 --- Probably best off buying the book from Franz Koenig at The Serpentine Gallery Bookshop. You can contact him by email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he can sort out the payment, posting etc. £7.50 each. H, a Ann Klefstad wrote: Ok, Bertrand, after years of reading insults on this list, I wanted to at least model some insults that could be amusing, in at least some way. Eric's utterly-in-earnest character assassination of Ken was horrible to read, day after day; it was also horrible to see Ken attempt to engage with it when it so patently could not be engaged; it has been awful to see the repressed mr tamas mistake bile for freedom (it must be that repressive school system--); it has been awful to have mr death spewing away and awful to see the resemblance his automatic negativity had to other nastiness in the past on the list. So truly, perhaps allen acted peremptorily and perhaps the list should now reconsider, but I would say that such reconsideration should be based on what the individuals in qustion have contributed (or not): Could we do a search of the archives and post on a site the collected works of each, and, reading them through in their totality, determine whether either has ever said anything on the list that was not self-interested to the point of obsession, thoughtless, or vengeful? I am ever so willing to be proven wrong. Could we do this, and then vote on the question? I think, myself, that both of these characters should be, and perhaps will be, ashamed to read the sum total of their posts to this list. If I had written what they did, I certainly would be. It's not a question of sounding different. It's a question of taking away others' powers of expression through slander, insult, innuendo, and other verbal nastiness. And by the way, curdled usually refers to milk--when it curdles it goes off, it spoils. Metaphorically in context it means when something good is transformed into something bad--also, incidentally, goes from liquid to solid. Turns lumpish. AK
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
Allen, I agree. I couldn't think of one nice thing Eric has done. -Don _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
Bertrand, curdled means when you put something sour in fresh, good milk, it turns it clabbered or chunky and not fresh. For example, I put vinegar in fresh milk when I'm using a recipe that calls for buttermilk. -Don _ The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
Owen, Do you know any of the history of Fluxus as to how much editing George did? Was Eric ever kicked out by George? Any others? I know George and Dick Higgins had several disagreements but when I asked Dick about this he would not talk about it. Ken said that George's Fluxus list got down to one or two people at one time. It was at 88 or so when he died but I do not have a record of who was on that list. Ken told me that I was included. -Don _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Owen, Do you know any of the history of Fluxus as to how much editing George did? At various times quite a bit - although he often said that he only did this because the artists themselves asked for it. Many people came and went so there were never any that were out permanently - Dick was a case in point - for most of the mid 60s George maintained that the only 100% fluxman (as he called it) was Ben. Was Eric ever kicked out by George? Any others? Eric was never specifically excluded, but after he was involved in playing a trick on George (saying that they took a trip to the Soviet Union to do Fluxus Performances) George got quite mad at him, and threatened to throw him and others who he thought were involved out of Fluxus for undermining the possibility of Fluxus finding its home in the SU (this was George's idea in the early 1960s). The main person that George consistently seemed to direct his anger at was Charollote Moorman, not because she was Fluxus but because she was an organizer for the New York festival of the Avant Garde which he thought was a rival organization to Fluxus I know George and Dick Higgins had several disagreements but when I asked Dick about this he would not talk about it. Yes for a time they were not talking at all in the mid 1960s but by the end of the 60s they patched things up some what and Dick began to participate under the name Moma Glue and then but the middle 7os they had mostly made up and so Dick Fully participated in many of the performances in the late 70s. But in the Mid 60s George was often very angry at Dick for what he felt was abandoning Fluxus to start a rival organization meaning SEP. Ken said that George's Fluxus list got down to one or two people at one time. It was at 88 or so when he died but I do not have a record of who was on that list. Ken told me that I was included. -Don The two was after the blowup in after the Stockhausen Originale performance and the protest about it - where George says that everyone quit I have some interesting letters that George sent out later about this time. The lists were more something that he started doing in the late 1960s and early 1970s and he included them in his annual mailings that are reproduced in the Silverman addendum catalogs (and yes you are on them). Owen
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
On 1/3/03 10:32 AM, Carol Starr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi ann, the following post resulted in my buying said book in which tamas was included. Smells like self-promotion to me. I have yet to remember or see anything that is positive that he sent to the list that is not in some way self-promotion, self-obsession. He called you boring. You are not boring. He is bored. There is a difference. He has so very little grace in his writings, so little generosity, so little curiosity about anyone different from him, at least as evidenced in his contributions to this list. AK excellent book btw. i have had doubts about taking him off the list though not about the others. he said i am boring and i thought about it and he is probably right from his point of view. after all i live in a little place far removed from the crush of civilization and i am primarily a painter. so it gave me some interesting thoughts. just wanted to let you know he has contributed at least this one positive post and probably more. bests, carol St.Auby Tamas wrote: H, the STRIKE book is a catalog of the STRIKE-exposition in Wolverhampton Art Gallery, England, 14 September - 9 November 2002. It contains texts by more than 100 artists related to the subject. --- The 'STRIKE book' (2002, Alberta Press London) ISBN 3-88375-637-7 can be ordered from Cornerhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] Distribution Germany: Buchhandlung Walter Konig [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You can also buy copies at cost price direct from GAVIN WADE [EMAIL PROTECTED] 42 Rolt Street, Deptford London, SE8 5NL 0208-691-0786 ph/fax 07976-403696 --- Probably best off buying the book from Franz Koenig at The Serpentine Gallery Bookshop. You can contact him by email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he can sort out the payment, posting etc. £7.50 each. H, a Ann Klefstad wrote: Ok, Bertrand, after years of reading insults on this list, I wanted to at least model some insults that could be amusing, in at least some way. Eric's utterly-in-earnest character assassination of Ken was horrible to read, day after day; it was also horrible to see Ken attempt to engage with it when it so patently could not be engaged; it has been awful to see the repressed mr tamas mistake bile for freedom (it must be that repressive school system--); it has been awful to have mr death spewing away and awful to see the resemblance his automatic negativity had to other nastiness in the past on the list. So truly, perhaps allen acted peremptorily and perhaps the list should now reconsider, but I would say that such reconsideration should be based on what the individuals in qustion have contributed (or not): Could we do a search of the archives and post on a site the collected works of each, and, reading them through in their totality, determine whether either has ever said anything on the list that was not self-interested to the point of obsession, thoughtless, or vengeful? I am ever so willing to be proven wrong. Could we do this, and then vote on the question? I think, myself, that both of these characters should be, and perhaps will be, ashamed to read the sum total of their posts to this list. If I had written what they did, I certainly would be. It's not a question of sounding different. It's a question of taking away others' powers of expression through slander, insult, innuendo, and other verbal nastiness. And by the way, curdled usually refers to milk--when it curdles it goes off, it spoils. Metaphorically in context it means when something good is transformed into something bad--also, incidentally, goes from liquid to solid. Turns lumpish. AK
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
Brad, 1. I am not sure that this list is going to continue as an OPEN list (I am going to temporarily close it to new subscriptions--to prevent people like Eric Anderson from re-joining), and 2. if it continues as an OPEN list it is going to be under more active management and intervention (i.e., we're going to kick off people who are only here to put us down, people who are ONLY here to promote themselves, and anyone who is overly contentious). All tough judgment calls, but I am prepared to take the responsibility for making them. We're going to be strongly wrong rather than weakly right about this stuff. I'm acting as if we/Fluxlist has six months to live and six months to do some things...to go somewhere...that we don't have time to be patient with negative energy and grinding axes. Roger Stevens nailed it, I think, in his recent post, Fluxus Party. I hope people who do not agree with these changes will simply leave the list. Go find or start another one. Email discussion groups are not a limited resource. Allen Yes. As I have also stated backchannel: it is wrong to exclude people from an open list. /:b On Thu, 2 Jan 2003, Bertrand Clavez wrote: Dear Allen, I can't believe you've thrown away these fluxlisters! and if this is the case, I can't agree with such a choice. Tell me that I'm wrong in my inderstanding of this post. Best Bertrand
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
On 1/2/03 8:30 AM, Bertrand Clavez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bertrand and all-- Allen had always resisted moderating the list, even when the nastiness of these particular people threw away some of the most interestng and productive people on the list. Now, perhaps your notion of fluxus is double-dosed with negative capability, particularly corrosive, cruel, and self-obsessed. If so, I would encourage a new fluxlist to form, this one inviting mutual insult. However, it seems to be the rough consensus on this particular fluxlist that self-obsessed insulting posts that mechanistically respond to any utterance with a curdled version of same are not desirable on a daily basis. So Allen is hailed for his chucking of these types. Repetitive insult is a form of throwing away of the person so insulted, and deserves similar treatment. AK Dear Allen, I can't believe you've thrown away these fluxlisters! and if this is the case, I can't agree with such a choice. Tell me that I'm wrong in my inderstanding of this post. Best Bertrand - Original Message - From: allen bukoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 1:15 AM Subject: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR Open the windows, let some stale air out, let some fresh air in. I swear I don't know what has gotten into me...abusing power like this. Maybe 2003 is a time to renew Fluxlist. Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 16:04:12 -0800 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Majordomo results: remove eric anderson st auby tamas xx remove FLUXLIST [EMAIL PROTECTED] Succeeded. xx remove FLUXLIST [EMAIL PROTECTED] Succeeded.
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
On 1/2/03 10:08 AM, { brad brace } [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Brad, it's bad to habitually insult people on an open list. Speech is a type
of behavior; it should be taken seriously. If it is not--it it is pure
selfindulgence-- then one should not be forced to listen to it.
AK
Yes. As I have also stated backchannel: it is wrong to
exclude people from an open list.
/:b
On Thu, 2 Jan 2003, Bertrand Clavez wrote:
Dear Allen,
I can't believe you've thrown away these fluxlisters!
and if this is the case, I can't agree with such a choice.
Tell me that I'm wrong in my inderstanding of this post.
Best
Bertrand
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes. As I have also stated backchannel: it is wrong to exclude people from an open list. /:b On Thu, 2 Jan 2003, Bertrand Clavez wrote: Dear Allen, I can't believe you've thrown away these fluxlisters! and if this is the case, I can't agree with such a choice. Tell me that I'm wrong in my inderstanding of this post. Best Bertrand Allen and others on the list - I must add my voice to these as well (to Bertrand and Brad)- I am concerned about some of these actions Allen and although I feel it is OK to remove someone who is a problem for/to the health of the list, I think we have to be cautious not to remove some one just because we do not like them or that they do not share our views. As some one else mentioned healthy disagreement is in fact quite good, we just have to be careful how we make this determination as to what is and is not healthy. Although I think that your first removal was justified, I don't agree with the others . . . in fact I find it quite odd that the one (?) remaining original participant in Fluxus on the fluxlist, Eric Andersen, has been removed. . . I know that Eric can seem confrontive at times, but I have to say so what? He is truly committed to what he believes (that is a good thing), you always know where he stands, does interesting work as an artist, is really a nice guy and has lived and worked Fluxus for forty years - all of which I know I can learn from and I am sure others as well. Just a few thoughts. . . . Owen
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Owen, these are excuses. Can you name one worthwhile thing you have learned from Eric Anderson's posts to FLUXLIST? Can you produce one even minimally constructive post? His entire output on this list has been to 1. maintain his assertion that no one in real Fluxus considers Ken Friedman to be legitimate, and 2. that Fluxlist is a foolish enterprise, has nothing to do with Fluxus, and that those of us who participate are fools. Why would anyone even want to maintain membership on an email discussion list when this is their sole agenda? Eric Anderson is not a really nice guy, not on Fluxlist. Show me one nice guy post. Show me one post where he has ever contributed anything interesting or useful or beyond himself to this list, and I will stand corrected. I don't care if Eric was at Weisbaden in 1962 or if he has been involved in his own strain of Fluxus for 40 years. That does not excuse his behavior on this list and how he has treated others. He should be ashamed of himself. Sincerely, Allen Allen - I understand your point of view fully and I can't say that I disagree with you -I know that Eric has been hard on a number of people - yourself being one and Ken certainly being the other. So I do understand, but I just look at it another way. BUT the real point I wanted to make is not just about Eric, but about caution as we start to move from an open list to a more controlled one. . . . Owen
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
Speech is a type of behavior; it should be taken seriously. If it is not--it it is pure selfindulgence-- then one should not be forced to listen to it. Thanks Ann. Very very true. And overly repetitive insulting behavior recently became unbearable and distracting. Also feel I'll get more out of a mildly censored list than an abusive free-for-all. Though I feel a tinge of guilt in the sudden exclusivity of this list. (Closed to new members)
RE: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
Eric IPUT also? i don't think that this is good 2003 AD On Wed, 01 Jan 2003 19:15:13 -0500, allen bukoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe 2003 is a time to renew Fluxlist. Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 16:04:12 -0800 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Majordomo results: remove eric anderson st auby tamas
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
On 1/2/03 12:42 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Eric IPUT also? i don't think that this is good 2003 AD If Eric and IPUT had ever contributed anything that wasn't a snotty putdown, colored by arch pissy self-interest and self-promotion, I would say you were right. But if you search the archives, you will find nothing from them other than the above. They have each had a million chances to contribute, and all they've done is shit on the rug. Please tell me one thing that either entity you mention has posted to this list that was worth reading. AK On Wed, 01 Jan 2003 19:15:13 -0500, allen bukoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe 2003 is a time to renew Fluxlist. Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 16:04:12 -0800 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Majordomo results: remove eric anderson st auby tamas
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
thank you thank you air is airyfreshing Vireo il mio cervello e' nella salsiera (my brain is in a gravy boat)email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM: VireoIbis FAX: 703 935-7439Cup of Wonder and Nude Tent Torso journals-- http://www.vireopub.org [EMAIL PROTECTED]International Network of Kemetics-- http://www.inkemetic.orgClearingHouse of the Gods-- http://www.chotg.org - Original Message - From: allen bukoff To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 7:15 PM Subject: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR Open the windows, let some stale air out, let some fresh air in.I swear I don't know what has gotten into me...abusing power like this.Maybe 2003 is a time to renew Fluxlist. Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 16:04:12 -0800 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Majordomo results: remove eric anderson st auby tamas xx remove FLUXLIST [EMAIL PROTECTED]Succeeded. xx remove FLUXLIST [EMAIL PROTECTED]Succeeded.
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
Dear Allen, maintain his assertion that no one in real Fluxus considers Ken Friedman to be legitimate, Well, if I remember rightly, Ken accused him to be a compulsive liar (not exactly in these terms, of course, but that's what it meant) reminding the joke Erik did to Maciunas in the sixities...However, the point I want to make is not that Eric or Ken said that or that and showing who's the worst between the twos, what I'd like to say in fact, is that this is an opinion, no a unalterable truth, and that lots of others were having a different one from Ken (including myself, as Eric knows). BTW, it is today impossible to work with Ken and any other historicFLuxus on a concert or anything, one part or the other resign instantaneously, which, of course is a stupid and sad thing, but a reality too. and 2. that Fluxlist is a foolish enterprise, has nothing to do with Fluxus, and that those of us who participate are fools. Why would anyone even want to maintain membership on an email discussion list when this is their sole agenda? But if it was really the case, can you tell me why, since all this years, and with the amount of work that Eric has, why is he still on the list? this list, and I will stand corrected. I don't care if Eric was at Weisbaden in 1962 Actually, he was not, and you know that very well, don't you Allen? Anyway, I find it sad, that a stupid logomaniac as Mr. Death led us to such extremities. Bertrand
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
Dear Ann, Bertrand and all-- Allen had always resisted moderating the list, And I admired him for that, specially when he resisted doing that during Ken/Eric flame, because at that time, if I had been at his place, I would have moderate it. even when the nastiness of these particular people threw away some of the most interestng and productive people on the list. Now, perhaps your notion of fluxus is double-dosed with negative capability, particularly corrosive, cruel, and self-obsessed. Come on, Ann!! Don't get on that, it's OK now, Mr. Death is off, we don't need to infer and project such low and mean intentions to each other! I can't accept this from anyone, so please, if you intend to act in the defense of the respect, begin with you. If so, I would encourage a new fluxlist to form, this one inviting mutual insult. However, it seems to be the rough consensus on this particular fluxlist that self-obsessed insulting posts that mechanistically respond to any utterance with a curdled version of same are not desirable on a daily basis. So Allen is hailed for his chucking of these types. Repetitive insult is a form of throwing away of the person so insulted, and deserves similar treatment. Er... I'm sorry, but I don't have my dictionnary with me now, so I'm not sure I fully understood what you meant there, so I'm not sure about who you're pointing at (for example what means curdled?) Bertrand AK Dear Allen, I can't believe you've thrown away these fluxlisters! and if this is the case, I can't agree with such a choice. Tell me that I'm wrong in my inderstanding of this post. Best Bertrand - Original Message - From: allen bukoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 1:15 AM Subject: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR Open the windows, let some stale air out, let some fresh air in. I swear I don't know what has gotten into me...abusing power like this. Maybe 2003 is a time to renew Fluxlist. Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 16:04:12 -0800 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Majordomo results: remove eric anderson st auby tamas xx remove FLUXLIST [EMAIL PROTECTED] Succeeded. xx remove FLUXLIST [EMAIL PROTECTED] Succeeded.
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
I hope people who do not agree with these changes will simply leave the list. Go find or start another one. Email discussion groups are not a limited resource. Allen, What happen if they don't? will you invite them to leave, as you've just done with Eric and Tamas? What I mean is that I'm not willing to leave this list, nor am I to agree with your decision. What surprises me is how much the logorrheic delirium of Mr. Death have brought us so close to what he was denouncing: dictatorial behavior and censorship. I don't say you've been dictatorial in doing what you did, and you may have done it for good reasons, that you explained very precisely in some following posts, I just want to point out that having get us rid of Mr. Death, seems to have suddenly freed everyone so much that we're all ready to expell anyone that sounds different. I agree with Owen, that we should (or at least you should, as I'm not amongst the owners, so, in fact, I can't do anything about that) be more carefull with resigning people. The fact that Eric and Tamas can be rough or aggressive or cynical on the list, the fact that Ken chose to leave the list after his long flame with Eric, has nothing to do with what happened during Mr. Death sabotage attempt: Mr.Death had nothing to say apart of the little rhetoric tricks he repeated ad libitum, which have never been the case of Eric and Tamas. We may all feel better, in this purificated air -which is much different than pure air-but I'm sure we all know that purification, has nothing to do with freedom, democracy and creativity, and much to do with totalitarism, ploutocracy and academism. We should all step back a bit, instead of congratulating each other with the wonderful weather we have now on this list while beating our breasts to afraid the potential enemys. First firing Mr. Death Then Eric and Tamas Then preventing any new subscriber to come what will be the next step? Best, Bertrand
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
Fluxlist is a foolish enterprise, has nothing to do with Fluxus, and that those of us who participate are fools. That's right this is not fluxus - it is fluxnexus. Fluxus is a dead thing that ran its course. We are all fluxnexus artists.(when we want to be.) some are dadafluxnexusists, some are practfluxnexusists and some proctofluxnexusists, full-o-flux-nexusists, some prepostfluxnexusists, antistructurofluxnexusists etc, and so on. Birds of all sorts are gathered in these branching moments. but I really don't know why Eric is on this list - just to give everyone some lip I guess - has anyone asked him? cecil Freshdot.com Web Hosting Service Host 10 domains on one account for 12.95mo (USD) Freshdot Domain Name Registrations transfers $7.75 for .com, .net and .org - 8.75 for new .biz and .info http://web-hosting.freshdot.com/ Cecil Touchon: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Bertrand Clavez [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 4:35 PM Subject: Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR Dear Allen, maintain his assertion that no one in real Fluxus considers Ken Friedman to be legitimate, Well, if I remember rightly, Ken accused him to be a compulsive liar (not exactly in these terms, of course, but that's what it meant) reminding the joke Erik did to Maciunas in the sixities...However, the point I want to make is not that Eric or Ken said that or that and showing who's the worst between the twos, what I'd like to say in fact, is that this is an opinion, no a unalterable truth, and that lots of others were having a different one from Ken (including myself, as Eric knows). BTW, it is today impossible to work with Ken and any other historicFLuxus on a concert or anything, one part or the other resign instantaneously, which, of course is a stupid and sad thing, but a reality too. and 2. that Fluxlist is a foolish enterprise, has nothing to do with Fluxus, and that those of us who participate are fools. Why would anyone even want to maintain membership on an email discussion list when this is their sole agenda? But if it was really the case, can you tell me why, since all this years, and with the amount of work that Eric has, why is he still on the list? this list, and I will stand corrected. I don't care if Eric was at Weisbaden in 1962 Actually, he was not, and you know that very well, don't you Allen? Anyway, I find it sad, that a stupid logomaniac as Mr. Death led us to such extremities. Bertrand
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
On Thu, 2 Jan 2003, allen bukoff wrote: I hope people who do not agree with these changes will simply leave the list. Go find or start another one. Is this what democracy looks like? Unfortunate. Especially for an arts list; and perhaps especially for a fluxist list... The inspiring thing about lists (and most are truly open), is that they are visibly self-governing. /:b
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
haven't the barrage of comments from everyone in support of throwing various
individuals out been self-governing and democratic enough for you?
cheers.
---
From: { brad brace } [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:47:21 -0800 (PST)
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
On Thu, 2 Jan 2003, allen bukoff wrote:
I hope people who do not agree with these changes will simply leave the
list. Go find or start another one.
Is this what democracy looks like?
Unfortunate. Especially for an arts list; and perhaps
especially for a fluxist list... The inspiring thing about
lists (and most are truly open), is that they are visibly
self-governing.
/:b
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 13:43:56 -0600, Ann Klefstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please tell me one thing that either entity you mention has posted to this list that was worth reading. this isn't the point at all! i prefer to do my own quality control... to humor you though: IPUT have forwarded several interesting links to the list Eric has offered his versions of various Flux incidents care, anne
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
On Friday, January 3, 2003, at 12:39 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IPUT have forwarded several interesting links to the list Did you not notice an offensive and slanderous ad hominen attack? Suspension is another technique used by moderated and semi-moderated lists. It's quite effective. The people get to say their bits and then are forced to 'lay low', generally because they didn't care enough to be thoughtful to begin with, (or were just too self-enamored to think about anyone else). Then they come back. Sometimes it takes a while but it's freedom vs. privacy vs. license (rights of the individual/group) and eventually there's a list equilibrium. Poison has its places, but requires patience and good judgment to shepherd, not just explosive bile. It takes a lot to be suspended. And those who provoke it aren't concerned about it enough to curtail their normal behavior. After a while can coerce more thoughtful behavior instead, not necessarily limited, it doesn't really restrict or dull. Envelope-pushers and rebels can have free reign. And not be restricted within a defined dialogue. What structured standard there is, should be open. Suspensions are often in episodes, like drinking wine in the bathroom, smoking cigarettes at the reservoir, cheating, lying about a friend, drugs or other, etc. Less often it's centered around a particular lunatic. Cruelty and extreme stupidity provoke suspension and censure; it's also abused by authority which doesn't have anything better to do. But that's unlikely to be the situation here. The present authority, loose as it is, is more negligent and benign than dictatorial, though any action taken under the rubric of authority will offend someone. Prohibition, execution and expulsion or would you prefer to be swallowed alive by sewerage and junk mail? See the Finnish model of criminal enforcement http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/02/international/europe/02FINL.html, it's not exactly tyranny. The democracy/vote model is probably a good one. Expulsion is a valuable tool, not just a manipulative lack of utter relativity disguised as a unilateral value judgment. Like the people at one of the jobs I work at say: Get those fucking idiots off the phone! They're full of shit. cheese
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
Suspensions are often in episodes, like drinking wine in the bathroom, smoking cigarettes at the reservoir, cheating, lying about a friend, drugs or other, etc. Less often it's centered around a particular lunatic. should be: Group incidents are often centered around a particular lunatic acting out. A lot like performance art. But shouldn't someone do or say something when the lunatic starts inciting fire and driving people over the cliff. There may have been a frisson of galvanizing conflict, but it was usurped by a cold, damp, relentless undertow. Is it really kill or be killed? There's no resolution available when one ranting party is not available to shared dialogue. But an attempt needs to be made, for common decency.
FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
Open the windows, let some stale air out, let some fresh air in. I swear I don't know what has gotten into me...abusing power like this. Maybe 2003 is a time to renew Fluxlist. Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 16:04:12 -0800 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Majordomo results: remove eric anderson st auby tamas xx remove FLUXLIST [EMAIL PROTECTED] Succeeded. xx remove FLUXLIST [EMAIL PROTECTED] Succeeded.
Re: FLUXLIST: make that THREE and FOUR
thank you allen for having the courage to through the bull out of the barn. now lets all have a very creative and happy 2003. cheers, carol :) xxx allen bukoff wrote: Open the windows, let some stale air out, let some fresh air in. I swear I don't know what has gotten into me...abusing power like this. Maybe 2003 is a time to renew Fluxlist. Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 16:04:12 -0800 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Majordomo results: remove eric anderson st auby tamas xx remove FLUXLIST [EMAIL PROTECTED] Succeeded. xx remove FLUXLIST [EMAIL PROTECTED] Succeeded.
