Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Alan Litchfield]

I don't think the issue in this conversation is about Adobe abandoning 
FM, but that the corporate model Adobe chooses to use has effectively 
driven a lot of us old timers out the door, into the arms of its 
competitors. Yes, there have been a bunch of new features and added 
support for functions that required external plug-in support previously, 
but the interface is actually quite hard for me to navigate now, 
especially now that so many keyboard commands have disappeared or changed.


For me, my last favourite version was 7.2 on the Mac (which I still have 
running by the way, on a G5 tower). Sure it lacked all the fancy 
mod-cons of later versions but I could run that application for months 
at a time (without shutting down the computer or program) without issue. 
Can't say the same for the current version, I'm afraid. And as I said 
earlier, part of the reason was being locked out of the application due 
to licensing problems.


Version 5.5.2 on Linux was fun while it lasted. Of course, one does miss 
the hominess of Frame Corp, but that was a long time ago now.


Alan

--
Dr Alan Litchfield
AlphaByte
PO Box 1941
Auckland, New Zealand 1140

On 27/06/18 13:42, ideasli...@ideastraining.com wrote:

I've been hearing rumors of Adobe's abandonment of Frame for years, if not
decades. The timing of these rumors is almost as regular as an atomic
clock...

Abandonment hasn't happened yet. Oddly, I find the rumors tend to peak
before Adobe announces a new version. This list, or any public list, is not
a good way to make a decision about FrameMaker. Those that know can't say;
those that say usually don't know.

David Creamer
IDEAS Training
__
All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are one
of the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and migrate
away from FM.  All of the technical publications staff (including me) are
now using Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 2 year migration of all
FM documents into Flare.   It was a bit sad to say goodbye to FM, but the
handwriting was on the wall.

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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[ideaslists]

I've been hearing rumors of Adobe's abandonment of Frame for years, if not
decades. The timing of these rumors is almost as regular as an atomic
clock... 

Abandonment hasn't happened yet. Oddly, I find the rumors tend to peak
before Adobe announces a new version. This list, or any public list, is not
a good way to make a decision about FrameMaker. Those that know can't say;
those that say usually don't know. 

David Creamer
IDEAS Training
__
All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are one
of the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and migrate
away from FM.  All of the technical publications staff (including me) are
now using Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 2 year migration of all
FM documents into Flare.   It was a bit sad to say goodbye to FM, but the
handwriting was on the wall.  

___

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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Robert Lauriston]

Jeremy Griffith agreed with me on that. FM8 was the main version he
used to test MIF2Go.

All versions from FM9 on have the buggy UI layer that required me to
constantly take my hands off the keyboard.

Maxwell Hoffman followed up in 2012 and promised to get them fixed,
but they didn't make much progress, and then he moved to MadCap. To my
knowledge, it's still impossible to drive from the keyboard.

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 11:09 AM, Craig Ede  wrote:
> Forced to use FM8 for a year and a half for a recent job, I'd have to 
> disagree that it was "the last solid version". More recent versions of FM are 
> at least as equally solid and have a lot of nice features lacking in FM8.
>
> Craig
> 
> From: Framers  on 
> behalf of Robert Lauriston 
> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:45 PM
> To: Ken Poshedly; An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
>
> The last solid version was FrameMaker 8. It had Unicode support but
> not the bizarre and buggy UI layer Adobe added in FM9.
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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Syed Zaeem Hosain]

Same here.

Z

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 8:34 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Jack,
I just have not gotten around to unsubscribing to this list.  I probably will 
one day, but I have not yet decided to cut the cord completely.
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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Craig Ede]

Forced to use FM8 for a year and a half for a recent job, I'd have to disagree 
that it was "the last solid version". More recent versions of FM are at least 
as equally solid and have a lot of nice features lacking in FM8.

Craig

From: Framers  on 
behalf of Robert Lauriston 
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:45 PM
To: Ken Poshedly; An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

The last solid version was FrameMaker 8. It had Unicode support but
not the bizarre and buggy UI layer Adobe added in FM9.


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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Peter Gold]

In reading some recent additions to this thread, I'm reminded that InDesign
is probably unsuited for creating help systems.

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 12:34 PM, Ken Poshedly 
wrote:

> Hey Pete,
>
> I can only wish that my company was open-minded enough to allow us to
> upgrade what we have and even use different tools if so required.
>
> Great explanation from you.
>
> -- Ken in Atlanta
>
>
> --
> *From:* Peter Gold 
> *To:* Ken Poshedly ; An email list for people
> using Adobe FrameMaker software. 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:34 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
>
> Hi, Ken:
>
> Thanks for the brief trip through memory lane.
>
> As to InDesign as a replacement for FrameMaker for technical publications,
> IMO one major obstacle to this is that designers, who are its target
> audience, are predominantly *not* technical-content authors. The
> FrameMaker community of users over the years are mostly technical writers
> who create original content; they also apply these skills to shape the
> content originated by subject-matter experts across the spectrum of
> technical and scientific professions, and submitted to them, into usable
> technical information. In other words, they're language experts, teachers,
> trainers, instructors, testers, information organizers, fact-checkers,
> editors and clarifiers, of information, and also technical-document
> publishers. FM has been the right tool to enable individuals to do both of
> these complex sets of tasks simultaneously.
>
> It's not that InDesign isn't a good replacement. Since version CS 4, its
> book and related text-control tools compared well to FM's. But, it's just
> as difficult to get InDesign users to learn, create, and consistently use
> paragraph and character text styles (AKA FM "formats",) as it has been
> historically with Word, WordPerfect, FM, and others. In fact, InDesign has
> named styles for tables, objects, frames (containers), variables, page
> layouts, and so on.
>
> But the foundational difference in the user base is that FrameMaker users
> have been primarily content developers and InDesign users have been
> primarily content presenters. Different skill sets, different intents. The
> foundational difference in the use of the tools, I believe, is that
> FrameMaker document sets are often created with the expectation that there
> will be future revisions, which informs their design, structure, methods,
> and organization. InDesign document sets are more often seen as one-time
> productions. So, there's a cultural difference about ongoing maintenance
> and revision, more due to the mindsets of the users, than to requirements
> of the tools. It is possible to progress from FrameMaker to InDesign as a
> corporate technical-documentation publishing system, but it shouldn't
> become mandatory because FrameMaker was intentionally killed off.
>
> Progress is always slow and fast, depending on the pain and cost
> associated with it. Years ago, in the InDesign community users complained
> that their print provider demanded they submit material in specific
> non-InDesign formats, such as a certain level of PostScript, QuarkXpress,
> PDF or NOT PDF, etc. "It's too expensive to update our time-honored
> workflows and equipment. List members said, "Tell your providers that there
> are other providers who welcome your preferred output and they are hungry
> for business." One year, my wife and I each received our laminated and
> perforated new annual wallet health-plan ID cards on letter-size pages. The
> lamination covered the full page - card and huge blank area - front and
> back. I suggested to the membership director that I received other cards
> whose laminations only covered the card area, not the full page, and, with
> rising health-care costs, asking the vendor to change could save more than
> a few bucks. "They say their equipment can't do that." "Say other vendors
> would love your business." The next renewals came laminated only over the
> card areas. He said they saved bunches of money. Of course, my rates stayed
> the same.
>
> As has been noted more than a few times, even the cost of simply upgrading
> FM to the next release isn't trivial. Changing from one major tool to
> another, converting legacy content, retraining, etc., are beyond trivial.
> Staying with a proven workflow has lots of value. Nothing wrong with this
> model…EXCEPT WHEN THE VENDOR INVALIDATES PREVIOUSLY PURCHASED LICENSES!
> That's bad faith on a corporate level. Unacceptable.
>
> My 2 cents.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 7:36 AM, Ken Poshedly 
> wrote:
>
> I may be a little off-topic, but here goes anyway . . . I've been using
> FrameMaker since 1998 when my company got version 5.5.6 and, as the saying
> goes, "I never looked back". We had been using WordPerfect for Windows
> (version 7?) and I personally found it "clunky" to work with, especially in
> doing two-column layouts (text on left with 

Re: [Framers] Flare

[Robert Lauriston]

By some definitions, XHTML is structured, but as a practical matter,
from a tech docs viewpoint, compared with DITA or DocBook, it's very
free-form. You're formatting text much as in unstructured FrameMaker.
You don't get nearly as many validation errors about "this tag can't
be used here."

MadCap marketing people work overtime to blur the distinction between
XHTML and DITA. And in fact Flare gives you many of the benefits of
DITA or DocBook with less overhead.

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
 wrote:
> I guess it depends on what you describe as structured authoring.   Based on 
> my understanding of structured authoring per the DITA style guide, structured 
> authoring is "a standardized, methodological approach to content creation 
> incorporating systematic labelling, modular, topic-based architecture, 
> constrained writing environments, and the separation of content and form".   
> I do not consider myself an expert in this area, but based on that 
> description, I believe Flare falls into that category.
>
> Mark
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Framers 
>  On Behalf 
> Of Robert Lauriston
> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 1:02 PM
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 
> 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Flare
>
> Flare isn't structured. The topic source is XHTML.
>
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 9:58 AM, Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia) 
>  wrote:
>> As others have mentioned, it depends on your experience.  We were using 
>> unstructured Frame, so going from that to structured, topic-based authoring 
>> was a bit of a jump, let alone learning a new application too.  I am sure if 
>> you were already working with structured authoring, CSS, etc., you could 
>> adapt to Flare quickly.
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Re: [Framers] Flare

[Rick Quatro]

Flare is definitely a structured authoring tool. It's underlying enforced
structure is XHTML.

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On
Behalf Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 1:40 PM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.

Subject: Re: [Framers] Flare

I guess it depends on what you describe as structured authoring.   Based on
my understanding of structured authoring per the DITA style guide,
structured authoring is "a standardized, methodological approach to content
creation incorporating systematic labelling, modular, topic-based
architecture, constrained writing environments, and the separation of
content and form".   I do not consider myself an expert in this area, but
based on that description, I believe Flare falls into that category.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Framers
 On
Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 1:02 PM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.

Subject: Re: [Framers] Flare

Flare isn't structured. The topic source is XHTML.

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 9:58 AM, Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
 wrote:
> As others have mentioned, it depends on your experience.  We were using
unstructured Frame, so going from that to structured, topic-based authoring
was a bit of a jump, let alone learning a new application too.  I am sure if
you were already working with structured authoring, CSS, etc., you could
adapt to Flare quickly.
>
> Mark
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Shmuel Wolfson 
> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:19 PM
> To: Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia) 
> ; Framers - frameusers.com 
> 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Flare
>
> Does it have a steeper learning curve than Frame?
>
>
> On 26-Jun-18 6:51 PM, Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia) wrote:
>> Rick,
>> I still consider myself a bit of a novice in Flare since, in my opinion,
it has a steep learning curve.  But Madcap offers plenty of videos and free
webinars on the basics of the software and my associates have shared many
helpful tips and suggestions, so we all have gotten through the migration
relatively painless.  We have had some issues with Madcap support,
specifically when we ran into connectivity issues using its source control
option to integrate with Microsoft Team Foundation Server.  They seemed to
be very hesitant to get involved thinking it was an MS issue and not a Flare
issue.  We were left to handle most of these source control issues with our
companies' TFS administrators and developers.   But that has been the only
blip in what has otherwise been very good support.  Their reps gets back to
us with reported issues within a few  hours (our support plan provides 24
hour email support as opposed to phone support)  and they are usually very
responsive and helpf
 ul in is
 sue resolution.  Overall, I am very pleased with the application.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Framers
>> 
>> On Behalf Of Rick Quatro
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:25 AM
>> To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
>>
>> Mark,
>>
>> Now that you are a couple of years into it, it would be good to hear what
your satisfaction is with Flare versus FrameMaker. Thanks.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>> Rick Quatro
>> Carmen Publishing Inc.
>> r...@frameexpert.com
>> 585-729-6746 NEW!
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Framers
>>  On Behalf 
>> Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 10:55 AM
>> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
>>
>> All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are
one of the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and
migrate away from FM.  All of the technical publications staff (including
me) are now using Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 2 year migration
of all FM documents into Flare.   It was a bit sad to say goodbye to FM, but
the handwriting was on the wall.
___

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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Robert Lauriston]

The last solid version was FrameMaker 8. It had Unicode support but
not the bizarre and buggy UI layer Adobe added in FM9.

It still seems strange to me that Adobe used a sui generis UI layer
for a Windows-only application. Maybe it was cheaper to do that than
to map the core code that started in Unix to the Windows UI. If you
drill down in the UI, are there still some of those tiny, fixed-size
dialogs from the old days?

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 5:36 AM, Ken Poshedly  wrote:
> ...  many still say the last good, solid version was FM 7.0 ...
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Re: [Framers] Flare

[Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)]

I guess it depends on what you describe as structured authoring.   Based on my 
understanding of structured authoring per the DITA style guide, structured 
authoring is "a standardized, methodological approach to content creation 
incorporating systematic labelling, modular, topic-based architecture, 
constrained writing environments, and the separation of content and form".   I 
do not consider myself an expert in this area, but based on that description, I 
believe Flare falls into that category.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On Behalf 
Of Robert Lauriston
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 1:02 PM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Flare

Flare isn't structured. The topic source is XHTML.

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 9:58 AM, Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia) 
 wrote:
> As others have mentioned, it depends on your experience.  We were using 
> unstructured Frame, so going from that to structured, topic-based authoring 
> was a bit of a jump, let alone learning a new application too.  I am sure if 
> you were already working with structured authoring, CSS, etc., you could 
> adapt to Flare quickly.
>
> Mark
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Shmuel Wolfson 
> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:19 PM
> To: Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia) 
> ; Framers - frameusers.com 
> 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Flare
>
> Does it have a steeper learning curve than Frame?
>
>
> On 26-Jun-18 6:51 PM, Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia) wrote:
>> Rick,
>> I still consider myself a bit of a novice in Flare since, in my opinion, it 
>> has a steep learning curve.  But Madcap offers plenty of videos and free 
>> webinars on the basics of the software and my associates have shared many 
>> helpful tips and suggestions, so we all have gotten through the migration 
>> relatively painless.  We have had some issues with Madcap support, 
>> specifically when we ran into connectivity issues using its source control 
>> option to integrate with Microsoft Team Foundation Server.  They seemed to 
>> be very hesitant to get involved thinking it was an MS issue and not a Flare 
>> issue.  We were left to handle most of these source control issues with our 
>> companies' TFS administrators and developers.   But that has been the only 
>> blip in what has otherwise been very good support.  Their reps gets back to 
>> us with reported issues within a few  hours (our support plan provides 24 
>> hour email support as opposed to phone support)  and they are usually very 
>> responsive and helpf
 ul in is
 sue resolution.  Overall, I am very pleased with the application.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Framers
>>  
>> On Behalf Of Rick Quatro
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:25 AM
>> To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
>>
>> Mark,
>>
>> Now that you are a couple of years into it, it would be good to hear what 
>> your satisfaction is with Flare versus FrameMaker. Thanks.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>> Rick Quatro
>> Carmen Publishing Inc.
>> r...@frameexpert.com
>> 585-729-6746 NEW!
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Framers
>>  On Behalf 
>> Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 10:55 AM
>> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
>>
>> All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are one 
>> of the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and migrate 
>> away from FM.  All of the technical publications staff (including me) are 
>> now using Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 2 year migration of all 
>> FM documents into Flare.   It was a bit sad to say goodbye to FM, but the 
>> handwriting was on the wall.
___

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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Ken Poshedly]

Hey Pete,
I can only wish that my company was open-minded enough to allow us to upgrade 
what we have and even use different tools if so required.
Great explanation from you.
-- Ken in Atlanta

  From: Peter Gold 
 To: Ken Poshedly ; An email list for people using 
Adobe FrameMaker software.  
 Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:34 PM
 Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
   
Hi, Ken:
Thanks for the brief trip through memory lane.
As to InDesign as a replacement for FrameMaker for technical publications, IMO 
one major obstacle to this is that designers, who are its target audience, are 
predominantly not technical-content authors. The FrameMaker community of users 
over the years are mostly technical writers who create original content; they 
also apply these skills to shape the content originated by subject-matter 
experts across the spectrum of technical and scientific professions, and 
submitted to them, into usable technical information. In other words, they're 
language experts, teachers, trainers, instructors, testers, information 
organizers, fact-checkers, editors and clarifiers, of information, and also 
technical-document publishers. FM has been the right tool to enable individuals 
to do both of these complex sets of tasks simultaneously.
It's not that InDesign isn't a good replacement. Since version CS 4, its book 
and related text-control tools compared well to FM's. But, it's just as 
difficult to get InDesign users to learn, create, and consistently use 
paragraph and character text styles (AKA FM "formats",) as it has been 
historically with Word, WordPerfect, FM, and others. In fact, InDesign has 
named styles for tables, objects, frames (containers), variables, page layouts, 
and so on.
But the foundational difference in the user base is that FrameMaker users have 
been primarily content developers and InDesign users have been primarily 
content presenters. Different skill sets, different intents. The foundational 
difference in the use of the tools, I believe, is that FrameMaker document sets 
are often created with the expectation that there will be future revisions, 
which informs their design, structure, methods, and organization. InDesign 
document sets are more often seen as one-time productions. So, there's a 
cultural difference about ongoing maintenance and revision, more due to the 
mindsets of the users, than to requirements of the tools. It is possible to 
progress from FrameMaker to InDesign as a corporate technical-documentation 
publishing system, but it shouldn't become mandatory because FrameMaker was 
intentionally killed off.
Progress is always slow and fast, depending on the pain and cost associated 
with it. Years ago, in the InDesign community users complained that their print 
provider demanded they submit material in specific non-InDesign formats, such 
as a certain level of PostScript, QuarkXpress, PDF or NOT PDF, etc. "It's too 
expensive to update our time-honored workflows and equipment. List members 
said, "Tell your providers that there are other providers who welcome your 
preferred output and they are hungry for business." One year, my wife and I 
each received our laminated and perforated new annual wallet health-plan ID 
cards on letter-size pages. The lamination covered the full page - card and 
huge blank area - front and back. I suggested to the membership director that I 
received other cards whose laminations only covered the card area, not the full 
page, and, with rising health-care costs, asking the vendor to change could 
save more than a few bucks. "They say their equipment can't do that." "Say 
other vendors would love your business." The next renewals came laminated only 
over the card areas. He said they saved bunches of money. Of course, my rates 
stayed the same.
As has been noted more than a few times, even the cost of simply upgrading FM 
to the next release isn't trivial. Changing from one major tool to another, 
converting legacy content, retraining, etc., are beyond trivial. Staying with a 
proven workflow has lots of value. Nothing wrong with this model…EXCEPT WHEN 
THE VENDOR INVALIDATES PREVIOUSLY PURCHASED LICENSES! That's bad faith on a 
corporate level. Unacceptable.
My 2 cents.


On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 7:36 AM, Ken Poshedly  wrote:

I may be a little off-topic, but here goes anyway . . . I've been using 
FrameMaker since 1998 when my company got version 5.5.6 and, as the saying 
goes, "I never looked back". We had been using WordPerfect for Windows (version 
7?) and I personally found it "clunky" to work with, especially in doing 
two-column layouts (text on left with one-column graphics on the right; yes, it 
can be done, but it was never as easy as with FM). While the rest of the tech 
pubs world is now up to FM2017, my current employer won't upgrade past FM 11.0 
(due to the "I-know-it-all" attitude of the guy who makes decisions about my 
group; another story for another day). 

Anyway . . . I recall 

Re: [Framers] Flare

[Robert Lauriston]

Flare isn't structured. The topic source is XHTML.

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 9:58 AM, Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
 wrote:
> As others have mentioned, it depends on your experience.  We were using 
> unstructured Frame, so going from that to structured, topic-based authoring 
> was a bit of a jump, let alone learning a new application too.  I am sure if 
> you were already working with structured authoring, CSS, etc., you could 
> adapt to Flare quickly.
>
> Mark
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Shmuel Wolfson 
> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:19 PM
> To: Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia) ; 
> Framers - frameusers.com 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Flare
>
> Does it have a steeper learning curve than Frame?
>
>
> On 26-Jun-18 6:51 PM, Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia) wrote:
>> Rick,
>> I still consider myself a bit of a novice in Flare since, in my opinion, it 
>> has a steep learning curve.  But Madcap offers plenty of videos and free 
>> webinars on the basics of the software and my associates have shared many 
>> helpful tips and suggestions, so we all have gotten through the migration 
>> relatively painless.  We have had some issues with Madcap support, 
>> specifically when we ran into connectivity issues using its source control 
>> option to integrate with Microsoft Team Foundation Server.  They seemed to 
>> be very hesitant to get involved thinking it was an MS issue and not a Flare 
>> issue.  We were left to handle most of these source control issues with our 
>> companies' TFS administrators and developers.   But that has been the only 
>> blip in what has otherwise been very good support.  Their reps gets back to 
>> us with reported issues within a few  hours (our support plan provides 24 
>> hour email support as opposed to phone support)  and they are usually very 
>> responsive and helpful in is
 sue resolution.  Overall, I am very pleased with the application.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Framers
>>  On
>> Behalf Of Rick Quatro
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:25 AM
>> To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
>>
>> Mark,
>>
>> Now that you are a couple of years into it, it would be good to hear what 
>> your satisfaction is with Flare versus FrameMaker. Thanks.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>> Rick Quatro
>> Carmen Publishing Inc.
>> r...@frameexpert.com
>> 585-729-6746 NEW!
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Framers
>>  On Behalf
>> Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 10:55 AM
>> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
>>
>> All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are one 
>> of the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and migrate 
>> away from FM.  All of the technical publications staff (including me) are 
>> now using Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 2 year migration of all 
>> FM documents into Flare.   It was a bit sad to say goodbye to FM, but the 
>> handwriting was on the wall.
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Re: [Framers] list members not using FrameMaker now

[Etzel, Gary]

I can't speak to FrameMaker/Robohelp today, as we made this decision a few 
years ago. But I can say that Flare provides numerous templates that are easy 
to modify for your corporate look and feel. So you can get up and running very 
quickly with a great selection of different pre-made output styles. Another key 
factor in our decision to use Flare was the support, training, and webinars 
that MadCap provides. There has been a lot of valid complaints here in the 
forum, that Adobe does not support the technical writing community or its 
technical writing products. It doesn't make Adobe a bad company, it's just the 
way it is. But MadCap does support us, and that has made them a much better 
company to work with in my opinion.

Another point I'd make is that if Online Help is your primary output, rather 
than print or PDF, then working in a topic-based authoring environment like 
Flare or RoboHelp is critical. Think of it this way, in FrameMaker you are 
essentially writing a print-based document that you later convert to Online 
Help. In Flare, you are writing the Online Help directly. It seems like a 
subtle difference at first but once you realize it and embrace it, it 
completely changes the way you write topics and organize your documentation.


-Original Message-
From: Shmuel Wolfson [mailto:shmue...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:35 PM
To: Etzel, Gary ; Framers - frameusers.com 

Subject: Re: [Framers] list members not using FrameMaker now

But Frame supports HTML5, so where is the advantage in Flare as far as that?


On 26-Jun-18 7:20 PM, Etzel, Gary wrote:
> I'll come out of lurking for a minute to add my name to the list of 
> recovering Frame addicts. And we were serious FrameMaker junkies, too. We're 
> the people who wrote the Sourcerer plugin, if that name rings a bell. 
> Sourcerer evolved directly into all of Russ Ward's great structured 
> FrameMaker plugins at West Street Consulting, all of which we used for many 
> years to develop and extremely intricate workflow. But times change. For us, 
> we saw that HTML5 output was the future of our Online Help needs. When we 
> compared Frame/RoboHelp to Flare, and Adobe to MadCap, it wasn't even close. 
> That was several years ago. We're Flare junkies now and couldn't be happier.
>
> I lurk here to keep tabs on what's going on in the FrameMaker world, but I've 
> never seen anything that will make me second guess our decision to switch to 
> Flare. FrameMaker is a great tool and still has a role in the TechComm world. 
> But I will say again, very respectfully, that times change and we need to 
> change with them or risk becoming as obsolete as the software products we 
> love.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Gary Etzel
>
>
>
> **
>  This e-mail and any attachments thereto may contain
> confidential information and/or information protected by intellectual 
> property rights for the exclusive attention of the intended addressees named 
> above. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately 
> notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this message and its 
> attachments. Unauthorized use, copying or further full or partial 
> distribution of this e-mail or its contents is prohibited.
> **
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Re: [Framers] Flare

[Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)]

As others have mentioned, it depends on your experience.  We were using 
unstructured Frame, so going from that to structured, topic-based authoring was 
a bit of a jump, let alone learning a new application too.  I am sure if you 
were already working with structured authoring, CSS, etc., you could adapt to 
Flare quickly.  

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Shmuel Wolfson  
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:19 PM
To: Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia) ; 
Framers - frameusers.com 
Subject: Re: [Framers] Flare

Does it have a steeper learning curve than Frame?


On 26-Jun-18 6:51 PM, Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia) wrote:
> Rick,
> I still consider myself a bit of a novice in Flare since, in my opinion, it 
> has a steep learning curve.  But Madcap offers plenty of videos and free 
> webinars on the basics of the software and my associates have shared many 
> helpful tips and suggestions, so we all have gotten through the migration 
> relatively painless.  We have had some issues with Madcap support, 
> specifically when we ran into connectivity issues using its source control 
> option to integrate with Microsoft Team Foundation Server.  They seemed to be 
> very hesitant to get involved thinking it was an MS issue and not a Flare 
> issue.  We were left to handle most of these source control issues with our 
> companies' TFS administrators and developers.   But that has been the only 
> blip in what has otherwise been very good support.  Their reps gets back to 
> us with reported issues within a few  hours (our support plan provides 24 
> hour email support as opposed to phone support)  and they are usually very 
> responsive and helpful in issue resolution.  Overall, I am very pleased with 
> the application.
>
> Mark
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Framers 
>  On 
> Behalf Of Rick Quatro
> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:25 AM
> To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 
> 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
>
> Mark,
>
> Now that you are a couple of years into it, it would be good to hear what 
> your satisfaction is with Flare versus FrameMaker. Thanks.
>
> Rick
>
> Rick Quatro
> Carmen Publishing Inc.
> r...@frameexpert.com
> 585-729-6746 NEW!
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Framers 
>  On Behalf 
> Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 10:55 AM
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 
> 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
>
> All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are one 
> of the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and migrate 
> away from FM.  All of the technical publications staff (including me) are now 
> using Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 2 year migration of all FM 
> documents into Flare.   It was a bit sad to say goodbye to FM, but the 
> handwriting was on the wall.
>
>
> Mark Eichelberger
> Senior Technical Writer
> Credit Union Solutions
> Fiserv
> Office: 1-610-233-4534
> www.fiserv.com
> FORTUNE World's Most Admired Companies® 2014 | 2015 | 2016
> Facebook: Like Fiserv  •  Twitter: Follow @Fiserv  •  LinkedIn: 
> Connect Fiserv  •  Careers: Join Fiserv
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's 
> homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
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>
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Re: [Framers] list members not using FrameMaker now

[Jack DeLand]

And Ferraris and Jeeps both run on petrol.  It's what you do with it and how
that makes the difference. Once you adapt to the Flare UI, you'll appreciate
how carefully thought out the tool is. The designers are always just over
the horizon, thinking up cool stuff.  Try the download. ...

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
On Behalf Of Shmuel Wolfson
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:35 PM
To: Etzel, Gary ; Framers - frameusers.com

Subject: Re: [Framers] list members not using FrameMaker now

But Frame supports HTML5, so where is the advantage in Flare as far as that?


On 26-Jun-18 7:20 PM, Etzel, Gary wrote:
> I'll come out of lurking for a minute to add my name to the list of
recovering Frame addicts. And we were serious FrameMaker junkies, too. We're
the people who wrote the Sourcerer plugin, if that name rings a bell.
Sourcerer evolved directly into all of Russ Ward's great structured
FrameMaker plugins at West Street Consulting, all of which we used for many
years to develop and extremely intricate workflow. But times change. For us,
we saw that HTML5 output was the future of our Online Help needs. When we
compared Frame/RoboHelp to Flare, and Adobe to MadCap, it wasn't even close.
That was several years ago. We're Flare junkies now and couldn't be happier.
>
> I lurk here to keep tabs on what's going on in the FrameMaker world, but
I've never seen anything that will make me second guess our decision to
switch to Flare. FrameMaker is a great tool and still has a role in the
TechComm world. But I will say again, very respectfully, that times change
and we need to change with them or risk becoming as obsolete as the software
products we love.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Gary Etzel
>
>
>
> **
>  This e-mail and any attachments thereto may contain 
> confidential information and/or information protected by intellectual
property rights for the exclusive attention of the intended addressees named
above. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately
notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this message and its
attachments. Unauthorized use, copying or further full or partial
distribution of this e-mail or its contents is prohibited.
> **
>  ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's 
> homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at 
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Re: [Framers] Flare

[Robert Lauriston]

I'd had to learn CSS for lots of other reasons before I used it in Flare.

The first time you define print layouts with CSS there are a lot of
things to learn.

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 9:36 AM, Jack DeLand  wrote:
> FWIW, I had taught RoboHelp for several years and wrote a chapter of one
> RoboHelp user guide. The big transition for me in moving to Flare was
> thinking up how to do page layouts using CSS and HTML as opposed to the more
> traditional DTP mindset.
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Re: [Framers] Flare

[Jack DeLand]

FWIW, I had taught RoboHelp for several years and wrote a chapter of one
RoboHelp user guide. The big transition for me in moving to Flare was
thinking up how to do page layouts using CSS and HTML as opposed to the more
traditional DTP mindset.

I don't think anything would be gained by expanding this list to include
Flare topics (no pun).


Jack DeLand . Principal
Adam Charles Consulting, LLC

734 972 3026

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackdeland/
http://www.adamcharlesconsulting.com/ 

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:32 PM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.

Subject: Re: [Framers] Flare

Depends on your experience. I had used RoboHelp before I used Flare and
they're generally very similar.

Most of my problems with Flare were due to bad UI design or incomplete or
confusing documentation. Often I couldn't find features that I knew were in
there someplace. I got answers to most of my questions quickly on
forums.madcapsoftware.com, and when I didn't that was usually because Flare
couldn't do that particular thing.

If you've never used any topic-oriented authoring tool (Oxygen, XMetal,
RoboHelp, Paligo, really any single-source authoring tool except
FrameMaker), there's probably more of a learning curve.

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 9:19 AM, Shmuel Wolfson  wrote:
> Does it have a steeper learning curve than Frame?
>
>
> On 26-Jun-18 6:51 PM, Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia) wrote:
>>
>> Rick,
>> I still consider myself a bit of a novice in Flare since, in my 
>> opinion, it has a steep learning curve.  But Madcap offers plenty of 
>> videos and free webinars on the basics of the software and my 
>> associates have shared many helpful tips and suggestions, so we all 
>> have gotten through the migration relatively painless.  We have had 
>> some issues with Madcap support, specifically when we ran into 
>> connectivity issues using its source control option to integrate with 
>> Microsoft Team Foundation Server.  They seemed to be very hesitant to 
>> get involved thinking it was an MS issue and not a Flare issue.  We were
left to handle most of these source control issues with our
>> companies' TFS administrators and developers.   But that has been the
only
>> blip in what has otherwise been very good support.  Their reps gets 
>> back to us with reported issues within a few  hours (our support plan 
>> provides 24 hour email support as opposed to phone support)  and they 
>> are usually very responsive and helpful in issue resolution.  
>> Overall, I am very pleased with the application.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Framers
>>  
>> On Behalf Of Rick Quatro
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:25 AM
>> To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
>>
>> Mark,
>>
>> Now that you are a couple of years into it, it would be good to hear 
>> what your satisfaction is with Flare versus FrameMaker. Thanks.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>> Rick Quatro
>> Carmen Publishing Inc.
>> r...@frameexpert.com
>> 585-729-6746 NEW!
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Framers 
>> 
>> On Behalf Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 10:55 AM
>> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
>>
>> All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM 
>> are one of the reasons why my company decided to focus on another 
>> tool and migrate away from FM.  All of the technical publications 
>> staff (including
>> me) are now using Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 2 year
migration
>> of all FM documents into Flare.   It was a bit sad to say goodbye to FM,
but
>> the handwriting was on the wall.
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Re: [Framers] list members not using FrameMaker now

[Shmuel Wolfson]

But Frame supports HTML5, so where is the advantage in Flare as far as that?


On 26-Jun-18 7:20 PM, Etzel, Gary wrote:

I'll come out of lurking for a minute to add my name to the list of recovering 
Frame addicts. And we were serious FrameMaker junkies, too. We're the people 
who wrote the Sourcerer plugin, if that name rings a bell. Sourcerer evolved 
directly into all of Russ Ward's great structured FrameMaker plugins at West 
Street Consulting, all of which we used for many years to develop and extremely 
intricate workflow. But times change. For us, we saw that HTML5 output was the 
future of our Online Help needs. When we compared Frame/RoboHelp to Flare, and 
Adobe to MadCap, it wasn't even close. That was several years ago. We're Flare 
junkies now and couldn't be happier.

I lurk here to keep tabs on what's going on in the FrameMaker world, but I've 
never seen anything that will make me second guess our decision to switch to 
Flare. FrameMaker is a great tool and still has a role in the TechComm world. 
But I will say again, very respectfully, that times change and we need to 
change with them or risk becoming as obsolete as the software products we love.

Best regards,

Gary Etzel



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transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender by return e-mail 
and delete this message and its attachments. Unauthorized use, copying or 
further full or partial distribution of this e-mail or its contents is 
prohibited.
**
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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Peter Gold]

Hi, Ken:

Thanks for the brief trip through memory lane.

As to InDesign as a replacement for FrameMaker for technical publications,
IMO one major obstacle to this is that designers, who are its target
audience, are predominantly *not* technical-content authors. The FrameMaker
community of users over the years are mostly technical writers who create
original content; they also apply these skills to shape the content
originated by subject-matter experts across the spectrum of technical and
scientific professions, and submitted to them, into usable technical
information. In other words, they're language experts, teachers, trainers,
instructors, testers, information organizers, fact-checkers, editors and
clarifiers, of information, and also technical-document publishers. FM has
been the right tool to enable individuals to do both of these complex sets
of tasks simultaneously.

It's not that InDesign isn't a good replacement. Since version CS 4, its
book and related text-control tools compared well to FM's. But, it's just
as difficult to get InDesign users to learn, create, and consistently use
paragraph and character text styles (AKA FM "formats",) as it has been
historically with Word, WordPerfect, FM, and others. In fact, InDesign has
named styles for tables, objects, frames (containers), variables, page
layouts, and so on.

But the foundational difference in the user base is that FrameMaker users
have been primarily content developers and InDesign users have been
primarily content presenters. Different skill sets, different intents. The
foundational difference in the use of the tools, I believe, is that
FrameMaker document sets are often created with the expectation that there
will be future revisions, which informs their design, structure, methods,
and organization. InDesign document sets are more often seen as one-time
productions. So, there's a cultural difference about ongoing maintenance
and revision, more due to the mindsets of the users, than to requirements
of the tools. It is possible to progress from FrameMaker to InDesign as a
corporate technical-documentation publishing system, but it shouldn't
become mandatory because FrameMaker was intentionally killed off.

Progress is always slow and fast, depending on the pain and cost associated
with it. Years ago, in the InDesign community users complained that their
print provider demanded they submit material in specific non-InDesign
formats, such as a certain level of PostScript, QuarkXpress, PDF or NOT
PDF, etc. "It's too expensive to update our time-honored workflows and
equipment. List members said, "Tell your providers that there are other
providers who welcome your preferred output and they are hungry for
business." One year, my wife and I each received our laminated and
perforated new annual wallet health-plan ID cards on letter-size pages. The
lamination covered the full page - card and huge blank area - front and
back. I suggested to the membership director that I received other cards
whose laminations only covered the card area, not the full page, and, with
rising health-care costs, asking the vendor to change could save more than
a few bucks. "They say their equipment can't do that." "Say other vendors
would love your business." The next renewals came laminated only over the
card areas. He said they saved bunches of money. Of course, my rates stayed
the same.

As has been noted more than a few times, even the cost of simply upgrading
FM to the next release isn't trivial. Changing from one major tool to
another, converting legacy content, retraining, etc., are beyond trivial.
Staying with a proven workflow has lots of value. Nothing wrong with this
model…EXCEPT WHEN THE VENDOR INVALIDATES PREVIOUSLY PURCHASED LICENSES!
That's bad faith on a corporate level. Unacceptable.

My 2 cents.



On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 7:36 AM, Ken Poshedly 
wrote:

> I may be a little off-topic, but here goes anyway . . . I've been using
> FrameMaker since 1998 when my company got version 5.5.6 and, as the saying
> goes, "I never looked back". We had been using WordPerfect for Windows
> (version 7?) and I personally found it "clunky" to work with, especially in
> doing two-column layouts (text on left with one-column graphics on the
> right; yes, it can be done, but it was never as easy as with FM). While the
> rest of the tech pubs world is now up to FM2017, my current employer won't
> upgrade past FM 11.0 (due to the "I-know-it-all" attitude of the guy who
> makes decisions about my group; another story for another day).
>
> Anyway . . . I recall in the early 2000's the fairly numerous posts that
> Adobe (which had purchased Frame Technology Corp.), was not really
> interested in upgrading it, but had gotten what it wanted (money from new
> sales and a huge fan-base) and was really trying to slowly let it "die on
> the vine" because Adobe really wanted to sell that fan-base on Adobe's own
> homegrown product, InDesign. There was always a periodic hue-and-cry about

Re: [Framers] Flare

[Robert Lauriston]

Depends on your experience. I had used RoboHelp before I used Flare
and they're generally very similar.

Most of my problems with Flare were due to bad UI design or incomplete
or confusing documentation. Often I couldn't find features that I knew
were in there someplace. I got answers to most of my questions quickly
on forums.madcapsoftware.com, and when I didn't that was usually
because Flare couldn't do that particular thing.

If you've never used any topic-oriented authoring tool (Oxygen,
XMetal, RoboHelp, Paligo, really any single-source authoring tool
except FrameMaker), there's probably more of a learning curve.

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 9:19 AM, Shmuel Wolfson  wrote:
> Does it have a steeper learning curve than Frame?
>
>
> On 26-Jun-18 6:51 PM, Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia) wrote:
>>
>> Rick,
>> I still consider myself a bit of a novice in Flare since, in my opinion,
>> it has a steep learning curve.  But Madcap offers plenty of videos and free
>> webinars on the basics of the software and my associates have shared many
>> helpful tips and suggestions, so we all have gotten through the migration
>> relatively painless.  We have had some issues with Madcap support,
>> specifically when we ran into connectivity issues using its source control
>> option to integrate with Microsoft Team Foundation Server.  They seemed to
>> be very hesitant to get involved thinking it was an MS issue and not a Flare
>> issue.  We were left to handle most of these source control issues with our
>> companies' TFS administrators and developers.   But that has been the only
>> blip in what has otherwise been very good support.  Their reps gets back to
>> us with reported issues within a few  hours (our support plan provides 24
>> hour email support as opposed to phone support)  and they are usually very
>> responsive and helpful in issue resolution.  Overall, I am very pleased with
>> the application.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Framers
>>  On
>> Behalf Of Rick Quatro
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:25 AM
>> To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
>>
>> Mark,
>>
>> Now that you are a couple of years into it, it would be good to hear what
>> your satisfaction is with Flare versus FrameMaker. Thanks.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>> Rick Quatro
>> Carmen Publishing Inc.
>> r...@frameexpert.com
>> 585-729-6746 NEW!
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Framers 
>> On Behalf Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 10:55 AM
>> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
>>
>> All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are
>> one of the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and
>> migrate away from FM.  All of the technical publications staff (including
>> me) are now using Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 2 year migration
>> of all FM documents into Flare.   It was a bit sad to say goodbye to FM, but
>> the handwriting was on the wall.
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Re: [Framers] Problem while converting Ditamap to Book

[Scott Prentice]

Hi Vinay...

The screenshots you provide don't really help in the understanding of 
how you've set up those files and what the differences may be. If the 
elements and attributes are the same as other "container nodes," it 
should convert in the same way, but if the properties differ, that may 
be the reason for the different conversion. Since I use DITA-FMx, I'm by 
no means an expert on the default FM DITA publishing options, so may not 
be much help. If you don't get useful answers here, you might consider 
asking on the FrameMaker-DITA list (Yahoo group .. 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/framemaker-dita).


Cheers,
...scott



On 6/26/18 12:31 AM, Vinaya Krishna wrote:

Hello,


I had posted this query even in FrameMaker Community too but didn't get any
reply. So posting it here hoping I will get some sort of insight on my
problem here.



I am facing a strange issue while converting Ditamap file to Book file.



I have created a Ditamap file as shown in the following screen:



[image: 1.png]


One particular XML file (highlighted XML file in the screenshot) which is
used as chapter's main page, when converted to Book, is not getting
converted to a folder. Except for this file, all other XML files are fine
as shown in the following screen.

[image: 2.png]


All the other XML files which are used as main chapter pages are getting
converted to folders. Because of this group formation (Group 1 in the above
screenshot), the whole hierarchy and the chapter and topic numberings are
getting affected. I am using the option Save Ditamap as Book 2017 with
components while converting Ditamap to book.



Right now, I am using a workaround where I am deleting this group,
inserting a new folder, linking the appropriate FM file to the folder to
get the hierarchy right. Yes, this is a cumbersome and annoying process as
I have to follow this cycle in each product release.


I want to know the logic behind on what basis FM considers some of the XML
files as folder conversion file and some of the XML files as group
conversion file?



I don't know whether I am missing something here or this is a bug. Please
shed light on the FM conversion mechanism of Ditamap to book.



Thanks in advance.

Vinay




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Re: [Framers] list members not using FrameMaker now

[Etzel, Gary]

I'll come out of lurking for a minute to add my name to the list of recovering 
Frame addicts. And we were serious FrameMaker junkies, too. We're the people 
who wrote the Sourcerer plugin, if that name rings a bell. Sourcerer evolved 
directly into all of Russ Ward's great structured FrameMaker plugins at West 
Street Consulting, all of which we used for many years to develop and extremely 
intricate workflow. But times change. For us, we saw that HTML5 output was the 
future of our Online Help needs. When we compared Frame/RoboHelp to Flare, and 
Adobe to MadCap, it wasn't even close. That was several years ago. We're Flare 
junkies now and couldn't be happier.

I lurk here to keep tabs on what's going on in the FrameMaker world, but I've 
never seen anything that will make me second guess our decision to switch to 
Flare. FrameMaker is a great tool and still has a role in the TechComm world. 
But I will say again, very respectfully, that times change and we need to 
change with them or risk becoming as obsolete as the software products we love.

Best regards,

Gary Etzel



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Re: [Framers] Flare

[Shmuel Wolfson]

Does it have a steeper learning curve than Frame?


On 26-Jun-18 6:51 PM, Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia) wrote:

Rick,
I still consider myself a bit of a novice in Flare since, in my opinion, it has 
a steep learning curve.  But Madcap offers plenty of videos and free webinars 
on the basics of the software and my associates have shared many helpful tips 
and suggestions, so we all have gotten through the migration relatively 
painless.  We have had some issues with Madcap support, specifically when we 
ran into connectivity issues using its source control option to integrate with 
Microsoft Team Foundation Server.  They seemed to be very hesitant to get 
involved thinking it was an MS issue and not a Flare issue.  We were left to 
handle most of these source control issues with our companies' TFS 
administrators and developers.   But that has been the only blip in what has 
otherwise been very good support.  Their reps gets back to us with reported 
issues within a few  hours (our support plan provides 24 hour email support as 
opposed to phone support)  and they are usually very responsive and helpful in 
issue resolution.  Overall, I am very pleased with the application.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On Behalf 
Of Rick Quatro
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:25 AM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Mark,

Now that you are a couple of years into it, it would be good to hear what your 
satisfaction is with Flare versus FrameMaker. Thanks.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
r...@frameexpert.com
585-729-6746 NEW!



-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 10:55 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are one of 
the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and migrate away 
from FM.  All of the technical publications staff (including me) are now using 
Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 2 year migration of all FM documents 
into Flare.   It was a bit sad to say goodbye to FM, but the handwriting was on 
the wall.


Mark Eichelberger
Senior Technical Writer
Credit Union Solutions
Fiserv
Office: 1-610-233-4534
www.fiserv.com
FORTUNE World's Most Admired Companies® 2014 | 2015 | 2016
Facebook: Like Fiserv  •  Twitter: Follow @Fiserv  •  LinkedIn: Connect Fiserv  
•  Careers: Join Fiserv





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Re: [Framers] list members not using FrameMaker now

[Rick Quatro]

I wouldn't want to "officially" expand the list beyond FrameMaker, but the
nice thing about this list is that you are not going to get your hand
slapped for mentioning or asking questions about other products.

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On
Behalf Of john.x.pos...@us.hsbc.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:46 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
; Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)

Subject: Re: [Framers] list members not using FrameMaker now

I still use FM, but recently have transitioned some deliverables off FM
because I've restructured the documents to be much more streamlined (600
page docs down to 25 pages)

Might it be considered, to retain readership, that we evolve this group from
"just" FM, to include Flare? 

-Original Message-
From: Framers
[mailto:framers-bounces+john.x.posada=us.hsbc@lists.frameusers.com] On
Behalf Of Monique Semp
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:41 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
; Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)

Subject: [Framers] list members not using FrameMaker now

   Yep, me too. I'm not using FrameMaker at the moment (and haven't for
   some time), but not only might I need to use Frame again in the future
   (and so want to have had an ear out for issues), I learn many things
   other than specific FrameMaker items from this list's membership! And
   so I've deliberately kept my subscription. I figure it hurts nobody,
   and is useful to me.
   -Monique

   On 6/26/18 8:33 AM, Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia) wrote:

Jack,
I just have not gotten around to unsubscribing to this list.  I probably
will on e day, but I have not yet decided to cut the cord completely.

-Original Message-
From: Framers
[1] On Behalf Of Jack DeLand
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:26 AM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'
[2]
Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

And now I wonder how many closet Flare users are on this list. 

Jack DeLand  o  Principal
Adam Charles Consulting, LLC

734 972 3026

[3]https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackdeland/
[4]http://www.adamcharlesconsulting.com/

References

   1.
mailto:framers-bounces+mark.eichelberger=fiserv@lists.frameusers.com
   2. mailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com
   3. https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackdeland/
   4. http://www.adamcharlesconsulting.com/
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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)]

Rick,
I still consider myself a bit of a novice in Flare since, in my opinion, it has 
a steep learning curve.  But Madcap offers plenty of videos and free webinars 
on the basics of the software and my associates have shared many helpful tips 
and suggestions, so we all have gotten through the migration relatively 
painless.  We have had some issues with Madcap support, specifically when we 
ran into connectivity issues using its source control option to integrate with 
Microsoft Team Foundation Server.  They seemed to be very hesitant to get 
involved thinking it was an MS issue and not a Flare issue.  We were left to 
handle most of these source control issues with our companies' TFS 
administrators and developers.   But that has been the only blip in what has 
otherwise been very good support.  Their reps gets back to us with reported 
issues within a few  hours (our support plan provides 24 hour email support as 
opposed to phone support)  and they are usually very responsive and helpful in 
issue resolution.  Overall, I am very pleased with the application.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On Behalf 
Of Rick Quatro
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:25 AM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Mark,

Now that you are a couple of years into it, it would be good to hear what your 
satisfaction is with Flare versus FrameMaker. Thanks.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
r...@frameexpert.com
585-729-6746 NEW!



-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 10:55 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are one of 
the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and migrate away 
from FM.  All of the technical publications staff (including me) are now using 
Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 2 year migration of all FM documents 
into Flare.   It was a bit sad to say goodbye to FM, but the handwriting was on 
the wall.  


Mark Eichelberger
Senior Technical Writer
Credit Union Solutions
Fiserv
Office: 1-610-233-4534
www.fiserv.com 
FORTUNE World's Most Admired Companies® 2014 | 2015 | 2016
Facebook: Like Fiserv  •  Twitter: Follow @Fiserv  •  LinkedIn: Connect Fiserv  
•  Careers: Join Fiserv





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Re: [Framers] list members not using FrameMaker now

[john . x . posada]

I still use FM, but recently have transitioned some deliverables off FM because 
I've restructured the documents to be much more streamlined (600 page docs down 
to 25 pages)

Might it be considered, to retain readership, that we evolve this group from 
"just" FM, to include Flare? 

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
[mailto:framers-bounces+john.x.posada=us.hsbc@lists.frameusers.com] On 
Behalf Of Monique Semp
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:41 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 
; Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia) 

Subject: [Framers] list members not using FrameMaker now

   Yep, me too. I'm not using FrameMaker at the moment (and haven't for
   some time), but not only might I need to use Frame again in the future
   (and so want to have had an ear out for issues), I learn many things
   other than specific FrameMaker items from this list's membership! And
   so I've deliberately kept my subscription. I figure it hurts nobody,
   and is useful to me.
   -Monique

   On 6/26/18 8:33 AM, Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia) wrote:

Jack,
I just have not gotten around to unsubscribing to this list.  I probably will 
on e day, but I have not yet decided to cut the cord completely.

-Original Message-
From: Framers [1] On Behalf Of Jack DeLand
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:26 AM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 
[2]
Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

And now I wonder how many closet Flare users are on this list. 

Jack DeLand  o  Principal
Adam Charles Consulting, LLC

734 972 3026

[3]https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackdeland/
[4]http://www.adamcharlesconsulting.com/

References

   1. mailto:framers-bounces+mark.eichelberger=fiserv@lists.frameusers.com
   2. mailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com
   3. https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackdeland/
   4. http://www.adamcharlesconsulting.com/
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It may also be legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you may not 
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error,
please delete it and all copies from your system and notify the sender 
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return E-mail.

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The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions.
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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Grant Hogarth]

Some of us use both; different clients have different requirements.
Grant

-- Original Message --
From: "Jack DeLand" 
To: "'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'" 


Sent: 6/26/2018 9:39:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Few people are more Flare-dedicated than me, but I don't think I'll 
leave this list, either. Too much good info & good people, plus I still 
use FM for my book.



Jack DeLand • Principal
Adam Charles Consulting, LLC

734 972 3026

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackdeland/
http://www.adamcharlesconsulting.com/

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On Behalf 
Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)

Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:34 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 


Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Jack,
I just have not gotten around to unsubscribing to this list.  I 
probably will one day, but I have not yet decided to cut the cord 
completely.


-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On 
Behalf Of Jack DeLand

Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:26 AM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 


Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

And now I wonder how many closet Flare users are on this list. 

Jack DeLand • Principal
Adam Charles Consulting, LLC

734 972 3026

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackdeland/
http://www.adamcharlesconsulting.com/

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On Behalf 
Of Rick Quatro

Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:25 AM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 


Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Mark,

Now that you are a couple of years into it, it would be good to hear 
what your satisfaction is with Flare versus FrameMaker. Thanks.


Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
r...@frameexpert.com
585-729-6746 NEW!



-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On Behalf Of 
Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)

Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 10:55 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 


Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are 
one of the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and 
migrate away from FM.  All of the technical publications staff 
(including me) are now using Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 
2 year migration of all FM documents into Flare.   It was a bit sad to 
say goodbye to FM, but the handwriting was on the wall.



Mark Eichelberger
Senior Technical Writer
Credit Union Solutions
Fiserv
Office: 1-610-233-4534
www.fiserv.com
FORTUNE World's Most Admired Companies® 2014 | 2015 | 2016
Facebook: Like Fiserv  •  Twitter: Follow @Fiserv  •  LinkedIn: Connect 
Fiserv  •  Careers: Join Fiserv






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Send administrative questions to 

Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Jack DeLand]

Few people are more Flare-dedicated than me, but I don't think I'll leave this 
list, either. Too much good info & good people, plus I still use FM for my book.


Jack DeLand • Principal
Adam Charles Consulting, LLC

734 972 3026

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackdeland/
http://www.adamcharlesconsulting.com/ 

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:34 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Jack,
I just have not gotten around to unsubscribing to this list.  I probably will 
one day, but I have not yet decided to cut the cord completely.

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On Behalf 
Of Jack DeLand
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:26 AM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

And now I wonder how many closet Flare users are on this list. 

Jack DeLand • Principal
Adam Charles Consulting, LLC

734 972 3026

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackdeland/
http://www.adamcharlesconsulting.com/ 

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Rick Quatro
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:25 AM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Mark,

Now that you are a couple of years into it, it would be good to hear what your 
satisfaction is with Flare versus FrameMaker. Thanks.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
r...@frameexpert.com
585-729-6746 NEW!



-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 10:55 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are one of 
the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and migrate away 
from FM.  All of the technical publications staff (including me) are now using 
Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 2 year migration of all FM documents 
into Flare.   It was a bit sad to say goodbye to FM, but the handwriting was on 
the wall.  


Mark Eichelberger
Senior Technical Writer
Credit Union Solutions
Fiserv
Office: 1-610-233-4534
www.fiserv.com 
FORTUNE World's Most Admired Companies® 2014 | 2015 | 2016
Facebook: Like Fiserv  •  Twitter: Follow @Fiserv  •  LinkedIn: Connect Fiserv  
•  Careers: Join Fiserv





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[Framers] list members not using FrameMaker now

[Monique Semp]

   Yep, me too. I'm not using FrameMaker at the moment (and haven't for
   some time), but not only might I need to use Frame again in the future
   (and so want to have had an ear out for issues), I learn many things
   other than specific FrameMaker items from this list's membership! And
   so I've deliberately kept my subscription. I figure it hurts nobody,
   and is useful to me.
   -Monique

   On 6/26/18 8:33 AM, Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia) wrote:

Jack,
I just have not gotten around to unsubscribing to this list.  I probably will on
e day, but I have not yet decided to cut the cord completely.

-Original Message-
From: Framers [1] On Behalf Of Jack DeLand
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:26 AM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' [2]
Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

And now I wonder how many closet Flare users are on this list. 

Jack DeLand  o  Principal
Adam Charles Consulting, LLC

734 972 3026

[3]https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackdeland/
[4]http://www.adamcharlesconsulting.com/

References

   1. mailto:framers-bounces+mark.eichelberger=fiserv@lists.frameusers.com
   2. mailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com
   3. https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackdeland/
   4. http://www.adamcharlesconsulting.com/
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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)]

Jack,
I just have not gotten around to unsubscribing to this list.  I probably will 
one day, but I have not yet decided to cut the cord completely.

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On Behalf 
Of Jack DeLand
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:26 AM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

And now I wonder how many closet Flare users are on this list. 

Jack DeLand • Principal
Adam Charles Consulting, LLC

734 972 3026

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackdeland/
http://www.adamcharlesconsulting.com/ 

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Rick Quatro
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:25 AM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Mark,

Now that you are a couple of years into it, it would be good to hear what your 
satisfaction is with Flare versus FrameMaker. Thanks.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
r...@frameexpert.com
585-729-6746 NEW!



-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 10:55 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are one of 
the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and migrate away 
from FM.  All of the technical publications staff (including me) are now using 
Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 2 year migration of all FM documents 
into Flare.   It was a bit sad to say goodbye to FM, but the handwriting was on 
the wall.  


Mark Eichelberger
Senior Technical Writer
Credit Union Solutions
Fiserv
Office: 1-610-233-4534
www.fiserv.com 
FORTUNE World's Most Admired Companies® 2014 | 2015 | 2016
Facebook: Like Fiserv  •  Twitter: Follow @Fiserv  •  LinkedIn: Connect Fiserv  
•  Careers: Join Fiserv





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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Jack DeLand]

And now I wonder how many closet Flare users are on this list. 

Jack DeLand • Principal
Adam Charles Consulting, LLC

734 972 3026

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackdeland/
http://www.adamcharlesconsulting.com/ 

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Rick Quatro
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:25 AM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Mark,

Now that you are a couple of years into it, it would be good to hear what your 
satisfaction is with Flare versus FrameMaker. Thanks.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
r...@frameexpert.com
585-729-6746 NEW!



-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 10:55 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are one of 
the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and migrate away 
from FM.  All of the technical publications staff (including me) are now using 
Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 2 year migration of all FM documents 
into Flare.   It was a bit sad to say goodbye to FM, but the handwriting was on 
the wall.  


Mark Eichelberger
Senior Technical Writer
Credit Union Solutions
Fiserv
Office: 1-610-233-4534
www.fiserv.com 
FORTUNE World's Most Admired Companies® 2014 | 2015 | 2016
Facebook: Like Fiserv  •  Twitter: Follow @Fiserv  •  LinkedIn: Connect Fiserv  
•  Careers: Join Fiserv





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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Rick Quatro]

Mark,

Now that you are a couple of years into it, it would be good to hear what your 
satisfaction is with Flare versus FrameMaker. Thanks.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
r...@frameexpert.com
585-729-6746 NEW!



-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 10:55 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are one of 
the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and migrate away 
from FM.  All of the technical publications staff (including me) are now using 
Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 2 year migration of all FM documents 
into Flare.   It was a bit sad to say goodbye to FM, but the handwriting was on 
the wall.  


Mark Eichelberger
Senior Technical Writer
Credit Union Solutions
Fiserv
Office: 1-610-233-4534
www.fiserv.com 
FORTUNE World's Most Admired Companies® 2014 | 2015 | 2016
Facebook: Like Fiserv  •  Twitter: Follow @Fiserv  •  LinkedIn: Connect Fiserv  
•  Careers: Join Fiserv





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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)]

All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are one of 
the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and migrate away 
from FM.  All of the technical publications staff (including me) are now using 
Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 2 year migration of all FM documents 
into Flare.   It was a bit sad to say goodbye to FM, but the handwriting was on 
the wall.  


Mark Eichelberger
Senior Technical Writer
Credit Union Solutions
Fiserv
Office: 1-610-233-4534
www.fiserv.com 
FORTUNE World's Most Admired Companies® 2014 | 2015 | 2016
Facebook: Like Fiserv  •  Twitter: Follow @Fiserv  •  LinkedIn: Connect Fiserv  
•  Careers: Join Fiserv





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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Ken Poshedly]

I may be a little off-topic, but here goes anyway . . . I've been using 
FrameMaker since 1998 when my company got version 5.5.6 and, as the saying 
goes, "I never looked back". We had been using WordPerfect for Windows (version 
7?) and I personally found it "clunky" to work with, especially in doing 
two-column layouts (text on left with one-column graphics on the right; yes, it 
can be done, but it was never as easy as with FM). While the rest of the tech 
pubs world is now up to FM2017, my current employer won't upgrade past FM 11.0 
(due to the "I-know-it-all" attitude of the guy who makes decisions about my 
group; another story for another day). 

Anyway . . . I recall in the early 2000's the fairly numerous posts that Adobe 
(which had purchased Frame Technology Corp.), was not really interested in 
upgrading it, but had gotten what it wanted (money from new sales and a huge 
fan-base) and was really trying to slowly let it "die on the vine" because 
Adobe really wanted to sell that fan-base on Adobe's own homegrown product, 
InDesign. There was always a periodic hue-and-cry about this and Adobe did wind 
up issuing updates over the years (although many still say the last good, solid 
version was FM 7.0). Adobe did actually drop the Macintoch version of FM.
Some folks compare Adobe tech support with "customer service" by Comcast (the 
cable TV company). Solely based in India and sort of nonexistant and 
super-deficient even if/when can get someone on the phone line.

So, nothing is forever and Adobe will someday probably deep-six FM for no good 
reason (just like NBC just cancelled the great TV show "Timeless", resulting in 
a HUGE online backlash about that. Lower-than-desired ratings don't seem to 
matter for other shows that still remain, however.).

I'm old enough to remember when competitors compared their "word processing 
software" to WordStar by MicroPro. I loved that program and all its keyboard 
shortcuts (oh, wait a minute, that's all we had because mouse-pointers hadn't 
yet made the scene). Though it has a rockier history than FM, it is still used, 
but just barely. There's a great write-up about it on Wikipedia. (The FM 
Wikipedia write-up is not nearly as extensive.) And let's not forget the late, 
great Ventura Publisher which was distributed by Xerox but is owned by Corel 
since 1993 and is a mere shadow of its once glorious self before the Corel 
purchase.

I wonder how Corel supports Corel Ventura (still available but supposedly last 
updated in 2002).



  From: "Harding, Dan" 
 To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 
 
 Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 7:20 AM
 Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
   
Program software, yes. Customer support and licensing, no.

At times it feels like FrameMaker is "abandonware", at least with respect to 
the attitudes coming from within Adobe... a begrudged necessary evil that no 
one there really wants the hassles of dealing with, hoping that it will just 
die and go away.

-Dan

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Shmuel Wolfson
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 3:55 AM
To: Peter Gold ; Framers - frameusers.com 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Why does everyone feel that Adobe is abandoning FrameMaker? In the latest 
version they redid the menus and added a shortcut to finding menu items. They 
also claim to have fixed some long-standing bugs.

My only gripe is the high price for upgrades. But they do seem to be working on 
the program.

--
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
058-763-7133


On 26-Jun-18 3:25 AM, Peter Gold wrote:
> These recent threads about licensing and related Adobe corporate-level 
> failings, and the associated sense of abandonment that's been voiced 
> by long-long-long-time FrameMaker users who represent a community of 
> talented technical authors and publishers prompt me to think "Is there 
> any next step that Adobe might take?" Well, if anyone at Adobe with 
> any power to communicate with the higher Adobe Powers That Be reads 
> this list (or if any members have contacts with folks who have the 
> ability to communicate with those APTBs,) how about floating the idea 
> that if Adobe's no longer interested in supporting FM and its 
> community of users, perhaps it's time to think about finding a company 
> that would like to buy it. FM might be only a mere fragment of a niche 
> in Adobe's spectrum of products and services and income streams, but 
> to a smaller enterprise, it could be a substantial business.
>
> Just another wild idea. Anyone out there? Bueller?
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's 
> homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
> 

Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Harding, Dan]

Program software, yes. Customer support and licensing, no.

At times it feels like FrameMaker is "abandonware", at least with respect to 
the attitudes coming from within Adobe... a begrudged necessary evil that no 
one there really wants the hassles of dealing with, hoping that it will just 
die and go away.

-Dan

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Shmuel Wolfson
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 3:55 AM
To: Peter Gold ; Framers - frameusers.com 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Why does everyone feel that Adobe is abandoning FrameMaker? In the latest 
version they redid the menus and added a shortcut to finding menu items. They 
also claim to have fixed some long-standing bugs.

My only gripe is the high price for upgrades. But they do seem to be working on 
the program.

--
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
058-763-7133


On 26-Jun-18 3:25 AM, Peter Gold wrote:
> These recent threads about licensing and related Adobe corporate-level 
> failings, and the associated sense of abandonment that's been voiced 
> by long-long-long-time FrameMaker users who represent a community of 
> talented technical authors and publishers prompt me to think "Is there 
> any next step that Adobe might take?" Well, if anyone at Adobe with 
> any power to communicate with the higher Adobe Powers That Be reads 
> this list (or if any members have contacts with folks who have the 
> ability to communicate with those APTBs,) how about floating the idea 
> that if Adobe's no longer interested in supporting FM and its 
> community of users, perhaps it's time to think about finding a company 
> that would like to buy it. FM might be only a mere fragment of a niche 
> in Adobe's spectrum of products and services and income streams, but 
> to a smaller enterprise, it could be a substantial business.
>
> Just another wild idea. Anyone out there? Bueller?
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's 
> homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
> http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
>

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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Shmuel Wolfson]

Why does everyone feel that Adobe is abandoning FrameMaker? In the 
latest version they redid the menus and added a shortcut to finding menu 
items. They also claim to have fixed some long-standing bugs.


My only gripe is the high price for upgrades. But they do seem to be 
working on the program.


--
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
058-763-7133


On 26-Jun-18 3:25 AM, Peter Gold wrote:

These recent threads about licensing and related Adobe corporate-level
failings, and the associated sense of abandonment that's been voiced by
long-long-long-time FrameMaker users who represent a community of talented
technical authors and publishers prompt me to think "Is there any next step
that Adobe might take?" Well, if anyone at Adobe with any power to
communicate with the higher Adobe Powers That Be reads this list (or if any
members have contacts with folks who have the ability to communicate with
those APTBs,) how about floating the idea that if Adobe's no longer
interested in supporting FM and its community of users, perhaps it's time
to think about finding a company that would like to buy it. FM might be
only a mere fragment of a niche in Adobe's spectrum of products and
services and income streams, but to a smaller enterprise, it could be a
substantial business.

Just another wild idea. Anyone out there? Bueller?
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[Framers] Problem while converting Ditamap to Book

[Vinaya Krishna]

Hello,


I had posted this query even in FrameMaker Community too but didn't get any
reply. So posting it here hoping I will get some sort of insight on my
problem here.



I am facing a strange issue while converting Ditamap file to Book file.



I have created a Ditamap file as shown in the following screen:



[image: 1.png]


One particular XML file (highlighted XML file in the screenshot) which is
used as chapter's main page, when converted to Book, is not getting
converted to a folder. Except for this file, all other XML files are fine
as shown in the following screen.

[image: 2.png]


All the other XML files which are used as main chapter pages are getting
converted to folders. Because of this group formation (Group 1 in the above
screenshot), the whole hierarchy and the chapter and topic numberings are
getting affected. I am using the option Save Ditamap as Book 2017 with
components while converting Ditamap to book.



Right now, I am using a workaround where I am deleting this group,
inserting a new folder, linking the appropriate FM file to the folder to
get the hierarchy right. Yes, this is a cumbersome and annoying process as
I have to follow this cycle in each product release.


I want to know the logic behind on what basis FM considers some of the XML
files as folder conversion file and some of the XML files as group
conversion file?



I don't know whether I am missing something here or this is a bug. Please
shed light on the FM conversion mechanism of Ditamap to book.



Thanks in advance.

Vinay


-- 
VINAYAKRISHNA
8951651841
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