Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[chris . samoranski]

I used Broadvision Quicksilver for quite a while until 2015’ish.  Basically a 
Windows-based version of Interleaf.  It was very useful, and working with their 
tech team was terrific.  What changes they’ve made these past six years or so 
should be significant.  Interleaf was definitely the Gold Standard and I 
suspect early FrameMaker was developed using many of it’s features.

Chris Samoranski
On Oct 14, 2021, 13:03 -0700, Steve Rickaby , wrote:
> At 13:24 -0400 14/10/21, Lin Sims wrote:
>
> > Interleaf still exists, but it's called Quicksilver these days.
>
> So I've heard - but does anyone use it?
>
> --
> Steve
> ___
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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[tammyvb]

I will say among the many things that annoy about Adobe, the one that really, 
really annoys me is that it purports itself to be a technical communication 
company, yet after around FM 6.0, the absolutely FANTASTIC User guides that 
they produced to support the use of their products just when down the tubes . . 
.zip, zilch, nada for how many years now? I still have my very dog-eared, 
tattered Frame bibles that were sent w/ FM 5.5.6, 6.0 and 7.0 and they are my 
life-savers to this day when I need to remember how to do something that I 
haven't done in a long time. Nowadays, you're left to hunting and pecking out 
on the web, hoping like H*LL that someone in a forum has had the same problem 
asked and answered, or that in Adobe's lame excuse for Online documentation for 
any product, that you find a hint of what you need.

I was stuck using RH2019 WAY before it was ready for prime time a few years ago 
and if it weren't for Matt Sullivan's class, and the support of Peter Grainger, 
and Surbhi Maheshwari directly from Adobe, I would have just slit my wrists and 
it shouldn't have had to be like that at all. Adobe's online "documentation" 
was so lame - grossly incomplete, flat out wrong in places, missing critical 
information. How on earth did they expect anyone to be able to use a brand new 
product w/out any decent user documentation - by osmosis or serendipitously? 

And yes, I agree - Adobe has D*MNED good products that meet the needs of 
projects unlike any other product, but w/out competent and timely support - 
either the human kind or the user guide kind - it doesn't matter. If you can't 
use the product the correct way and to its fullest extent, what's the point?

Tammy Van Boening
Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
www.spectrumwritingllc.com

> -Original Message-
> From: Framers  bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> Behalf Of tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 4:19 PM
> To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'
> 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> 
> Amen!!!
> 
> TVB
> 
> Tammy Van Boening
> Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> www.spectrumwritingllc.com
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Framers  > bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> > Behalf Of Craig, Alison GLI/CA
> > Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 11:15 AM
> > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> > 
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> >
> > IMO, Adobe treats us as open wallets from which to extract more and
> > more money - but they deal only reluctantly with our support issues
> > (you have to be *very* persistent) and (almost) never fix the actual
> > problem. (How many of you have searched the web for an "Adobe
> > solution" and come across a bunch of forums with reams of the same
> > complaint as yours, and the complaints date back 5, 7, 12 or more
> > years?)
> >
> > I've also had the "unhelpful and/or hours-on-hold support" issue with
> > other products (Creative Suite, anyone?) and don't get me started on
> > the dog poo they call "Adobe Digital Editions", which they refuse to
> > fix and also refuse to support. Yes, I know ADE is free, but do it right or
> don't do it at all.
> >
> > Alison
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Framers  > bounces+acraig=greenlightinnovation@lists.frameusers.com> On
> > Behalf Of Caroline Tabach
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 11:47 PM
> > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> > 
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> >
> > Well, I had Frame 7 for ages and ages, and used to see all the stories
> > on forums, so never moved till we got Windows 10 and then went
> > straight to frame 2015, so did not encounter these issues.
> >
> > Now I am in a place which is not using Frame
> >
> > Caroline Tabach
> >
> > On Wed, 13 Oct 2021, 23:17 ,  wrote:
> >
> > > Yea, pretty much. . . I figured after the installation fiascos that
> > > started with the first attempt at the Technical Communication Suite
> > > (TCS,
> > > 2009 - remember that!), Adobe had to catch on fast about this issue,
> > > but apparently that has not been the case. . . it was horrible then
> > > and has stayed just as horrible now. . . at the time, I remember
> > > that I referred to TCS as "Totally Cr*ppy Software.)
> > >
> > > I was an early adopter, and learned fast NOT to be in the case of Adobe. .
> > > . that hosed my system so badly that I had to basically take it down
> > > to bare metal and set everything up from scratch again and I was not
> > > the only one who suffered such a fate. . .
> > >
> > > Tammy Van Boening
> > > Tammy dot vanboening at 

Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[tammyvb]

Amen!!!

TVB

Tammy Van Boening
Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
www.spectrumwritingllc.com

> -Original Message-
> From: Framers  bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> Behalf Of Craig, Alison GLI/CA
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 11:15 AM
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> 
> IMO, Adobe treats us as open wallets from which to extract more and more
> money - but they deal only reluctantly with our support issues (you have to
> be *very* persistent) and (almost) never fix the actual problem. (How many
> of you have searched the web for an "Adobe solution" and come across a
> bunch of forums with reams of the same complaint as yours, and the
> complaints date back 5, 7, 12 or more years?)
> 
> I've also had the "unhelpful and/or hours-on-hold support" issue with other
> products (Creative Suite, anyone?) and don't get me started on the dog poo
> they call "Adobe Digital Editions", which they refuse to fix and also refuse 
> to
> support. Yes, I know ADE is free, but do it right or don't do it at all.
> 
> Alison
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Framers  bounces+acraig=greenlightinnovation@lists.frameusers.com> On
> Behalf Of Caroline Tabach
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 11:47 PM
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> 
> Well, I had Frame 7 for ages and ages, and used to see all the stories on
> forums, so never moved till we got Windows 10 and then went straight to
> frame 2015, so did not encounter these issues.
> 
> Now I am in a place which is not using Frame
> 
> Caroline Tabach
> 
> On Wed, 13 Oct 2021, 23:17 ,  wrote:
> 
> > Yea, pretty much. . . I figured after the installation fiascos that
> > started with the first attempt at the Technical Communication Suite
> > (TCS,
> > 2009 - remember that!), Adobe had to catch on fast about this issue,
> > but apparently that has not been the case. . . it was horrible then
> > and has stayed just as horrible now. . . at the time, I remember that
> > I referred to TCS as "Totally Cr*ppy Software.)
> >
> > I was an early adopter, and learned fast NOT to be in the case of Adobe. .
> > . that hosed my system so badly that I had to basically take it down
> > to bare metal and set everything up from scratch again and I was not
> > the only one who suffered such a fate. . .
> >
> > Tammy Van Boening
> > Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.spectrumwritingllc.com__;!!Oq50
> > -tQ!4YeNP0FWmIjoppPuC6df0zc9rQPfVoaiTMJ-jXcUS-
> UBlYEMRSBcfhP1w2ORHqEap0
> > GTOUFa$
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Framers  > > bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> > > Behalf Of Peter Gold
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 1:34 PM
> > > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> > > 
> > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> > >
> > > Egad, Tammy! Are you saying, "At least it hasn't gotten worse?" :)
> > >
> > > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 2:23 PM 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I just remember a conversation that I had with Dov many years ago
> > > > when I was still attending conferences and even back then, I was
> > > > lamenting about all that Adobe could do so wrong when it came to
> > > > installing/reinstalling/uninstalling and Dov's comment to me was
> > > > that a gentleman at the sister conference had commented to Dov
> > > > "When in the H*LL is Adobe going to stop screwing up my systems!!!"
> > > >
> > > > Even after 20+ years of this, nothing has apparently changed and
> > > > that is sad.
> > > >
> > > > TVB
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Tammy Van Boening
> > > > Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> > > >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.spectrumwritingllc.com__;!!
> > > > Oq50-tQ!4YeNP0FWmIjoppPuC6df0zc9rQPfVoaiTMJ-jXcUS-
> UBlYEMRSBcfhP1w2
> > > > ORHqEap0GTOUFa$
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -Original Message-
> > > > > From: Framers  > > > > bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com>
> On
> > > > > Behalf Of A Craig
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 12:06 PM
> > > > > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us
> > > > > Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I wholeheartedly agree — except, sadly, I'm not semi-retired.
> > > > >
> > > > > Alison
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com
> > > > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software."
> > > > > 
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, 

Re: [Framers] FrameMaker 2020 vs 2019

[Craig, Alison GLI/CA]

Absolutely the LSP should return the finished product using the same software 
version.

I would make a (nice) complaint so that this doesn't happen again - or to other 
clients.

Alison 


-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On 
Behalf Of Peter Gold
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 10:51 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] FrameMaker 2020 vs 2019

Are you saying that the translator used an as-yet unreleased version?
Possibly an NDA violation?

Is the secret download location a pre-release repository?

Shouldn't the translator return a client's project in the same release it
was submitted, or in MIF, to maintain compatibility?

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 12:28 PM  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I was using FM 2019 sporadically. I received files back from a translator
> in
> a version of FM I could not open. Notpad showed it was FM 16, which I found
> was 2020.
>
>
>
> I was never notified by Adobe about the new version, any upgrade, etc.,
> despite being subscribed. That was a bit annoying.
>
>
>
> Anyway, after a lengthy but successful support call, I was shown a secret
> URL where I could get this new version of FrameMaker, downloaded it, and
> installed it.
>
>
>
> The icon looks the same as FM 2019. The new version self-identifies as
> version 16, not 2020. I don't see any obvious changes off the bat. Anyone
> have any idea what the new changes to FM 2020 are, other than 2019 cannot
> open 2020 files?
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Sean
>
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
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> Archives located at
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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[Craig, Alison GLI/CA]

IMO, Adobe treats us as open wallets from which to extract more and more money 
- but they deal only reluctantly with our support issues (you have to be *very* 
persistent) and (almost) never fix the actual problem. (How many of you have 
searched the web for an "Adobe solution" and come across a bunch of forums with 
reams of the same complaint as yours, and the complaints date back 5, 7, 12 or 
more years?)

I've also had the "unhelpful and/or hours-on-hold support" issue with other 
products (Creative Suite, anyone?) and don't get me started on the dog poo they 
call "Adobe Digital Editions", which they refuse to fix and also refuse to 
support. Yes, I know ADE is free, but do it right or don't do it at all. 

Alison


-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On 
Behalf Of Caroline Tabach
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 11:47 PM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users 
"feel" the way we do about Adobe

Well, I had Frame 7 for ages and ages, and used to see all the stories on
forums, so never moved till we got Windows 10 and then went straight to
frame 2015, so did not encounter these issues.

Now I am in a place which is not using Frame

Caroline Tabach

On Wed, 13 Oct 2021, 23:17 ,  wrote:

> Yea, pretty much. . . I figured after the installation fiascos that
> started with the first attempt at the Technical Communication Suite (TCS,
> 2009 - remember that!), Adobe had to catch on fast about this issue, but
> apparently that has not been the case. . . it was horrible then and has
> stayed just as horrible now. . . at the time, I remember that I referred to
> TCS as "Totally Cr*ppy Software.)
>
> I was an early adopter, and learned fast NOT to be in the case of Adobe. .
> . that hosed my system so badly that I had to basically take it down to
> bare metal and set everything up from scratch again and I was not the only
> one who suffered such a fate. . .
>
> Tammy Van Boening
> Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.spectrumwritingllc.com__;!!Oq50-tQ!4YeNP0FWmIjoppPuC6df0zc9rQPfVoaiTMJ-jXcUS-UBlYEMRSBcfhP1w2ORHqEap0GTOUFa$
>  
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Framers  > bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> > Behalf Of Peter Gold
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 1:34 PM
> > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> > 
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> >
> > Egad, Tammy! Are you saying, "At least it hasn't gotten worse?" :)
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 2:23 PM 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I just remember a conversation that I had with Dov many years ago when
> > > I was still attending conferences and even back then, I was lamenting
> > > about all that Adobe could do so wrong when it came to
> > > installing/reinstalling/uninstalling and Dov's comment to me was that
> > > a gentleman at the sister conference had commented to Dov "When in the
> > > H*LL is Adobe going to stop screwing up my systems!!!"
> > >
> > > Even after 20+ years of this, nothing has apparently changed and that
> > > is sad.
> > >
> > > TVB
> > >
> > >
> > > Tammy Van Boening
> > > Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.spectrumwritingllc.com__;!!Oq50-tQ!4YeNP0FWmIjoppPuC6df0zc9rQPfVoaiTMJ-jXcUS-UBlYEMRSBcfhP1w2ORHqEap0GTOUFa$
> > >  
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Framers  > > > bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> > > > Behalf Of A Craig
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 12:06 PM
> > > > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software.
> > > > 
> > > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > > > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I wholeheartedly agree — except, sadly, I'm not semi-retired.
> > > >
> > > > Alison
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com
> > > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software."
> > > > 
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, 12 October, 2021 15:55:26
> > > > Subject: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > > > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> > > >
> > > > Because every single solitary time that I have to
> > > > uninstall/reinstall an
> > > Adobe
> > > > app., I hold my breath to see what kind of friggin' rabbit hole
> > > > Adobe
> > > takes me
> > > > down and yep, it pulled a doozy on me this week, and thanks to
> > > > Adobe, I
> > > lost
> > > > a good 2 hours' worth of work to get my system back up to 'snuff.
> > > >
> > > > I can give details if interested, but I just wanted to chime in to
> > > > the
> > > thread
> > > > from a few weeks ago, where someone stated that they feel that Adobe
> > > > hates their customers. . . well, yea, I understand 

Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[Lin Sims]

They must, or it wouldn't still be being updated and sold.

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 4:03 PM Steve Rickaby 
wrote:

> At 13:24 -0400 14/10/21, Lin Sims wrote:
>
> >Interleaf still exists, but it's called Quicksilver these days.
>
> So I've heard - but does anyone use it?
>
> --
> Steve
> ___
>
-- 
Lin Sims
___

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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker 2020 vs 2019

[techwordsmith]

Well, you are right. I now have FrameMaker 16 (2020), Adobe tech support
gave me the link, but I have no idea if it is actually released or if I have
a beta. Nobody said anything.

The vendor was told to use FrameMaker 2019 and made a mistake and sent 2020
files. I don't know if they are part of a beta or not. I was expecting 2019
files, which I can open, so didn't ask for MIF.

This opens more questions than those I originally asked  Anyone in the
know, feel free to chime in.

Cheers,

Sean



-Original Message-
From: Framers 
On Behalf Of Peter Gold
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 1:51 PM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.

Subject: Re: [Framers] FrameMaker 2020 vs 2019

Are you saying that the translator used an as-yet unreleased version?
Possibly an NDA violation?

Is the secret download location a pre-release repository?

Shouldn't the translator return a client's project in the same release it
was submitted, or in MIF, to maintain compatibility?

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 12:28 PM  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I was using FM 2019 sporadically. I received files back from a 
> translator in a version of FM I could not open. Notpad showed it was 
> FM 16, which I found was 2020.
>
>
>
> I was never notified by Adobe about the new version, any upgrade, 
> etc., despite being subscribed. That was a bit annoying.
>
>
>
> Anyway, after a lengthy but successful support call, I was shown a 
> secret URL where I could get this new version of FrameMaker, 
> downloaded it, and installed it.
>
>
>
> The icon looks the same as FM 2019. The new version self-identifies as 
> version 16, not 2020. I don't see any obvious changes off the bat. 
> Anyone have any idea what the new changes to FM 2020 are, other than 
> 2019 cannot open 2020 files?
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Sean
>
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's 
> homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
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>
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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[Steve Rickaby]

At 13:24 -0400 14/10/21, Lin Sims wrote:

>Interleaf still exists, but it's called Quicksilver these days.

So I've heard - but does anyone use it?

-- 
Steve
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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker 2020 vs 2019

[Lin Sims]

The current version of FrameMaker is 16.03.979. It was released last
July/August and has had 3 updates so far.

Frame's update function is busticated, but that seems to be an issue with
Adobe's website. You have to download it from the trial page. As long as
you're subscribed, it should install just fine.

Every now and again I yell at people in the ACP program or the TCS support
about how busted the download and update on the website are. The link from
your account page to update Frame still, after 3 years (at least) takes you
to the update page for Creative Cloud!

Generally speaking, most of the updates were for DITA but there were some
nice things added for us non-structured people. There's a navigation pane
now that can be used to navigate within a document. Right now it's
file-based, but there's hope that they'll be adding book-level navigation
soon. They've also added a utility you can use to split files down into
multiple files based on a tag name. It has XLIFF capability for translation
services, although that requires use of structured/DITA. And it FINALLY has
a button for converting selected text to sentence case. ;-) They also added
buttons to remove a row or column from a table, which has proven useful.

https://www.adobe.com/products/framemaker/features.html



On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 1:50 PM Peter Gold 
wrote:

> Are you saying that the translator used an as-yet unreleased version?
> Possibly an NDA violation?
>
> Is the secret download location a pre-release repository?
>
> Shouldn't the translator return a client's project in the same release it
> was submitted, or in MIF, to maintain compatibility?
>
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 12:28 PM  wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> >
> >
> > I was using FM 2019 sporadically. I received files back from a translator
> > in
> > a version of FM I could not open. Notpad showed it was FM 16, which I
> found
> > was 2020.
> >
> >
> >
> > I was never notified by Adobe about the new version, any upgrade, etc.,
> > despite being subscribed. That was a bit annoying.
> >
> >
> >
> > Anyway, after a lengthy but successful support call, I was shown a secret
> > URL where I could get this new version of FrameMaker, downloaded it, and
> > installed it.
> >
> >
> >
> > The icon looks the same as FM 2019. The new version self-identifies as
> > version 16, not 2020. I don't see any obvious changes off the bat. Anyone
> > have any idea what the new changes to FM 2020 are, other than 2019 cannot
> > open 2020 files?
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> >
> >
> > Sean
> >
> > ___
> >
> > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> >
> > Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
> > Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
> > Archives located at
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
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> >
> ___
>
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-- 
Lin Sims
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Re: [Framers] FrameMaker 2020 vs 2019

[Peter Gold]

Are you saying that the translator used an as-yet unreleased version?
Possibly an NDA violation?

Is the secret download location a pre-release repository?

Shouldn't the translator return a client's project in the same release it
was submitted, or in MIF, to maintain compatibility?

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 12:28 PM  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I was using FM 2019 sporadically. I received files back from a translator
> in
> a version of FM I could not open. Notpad showed it was FM 16, which I found
> was 2020.
>
>
>
> I was never notified by Adobe about the new version, any upgrade, etc.,
> despite being subscribed. That was a bit annoying.
>
>
>
> Anyway, after a lengthy but successful support call, I was shown a secret
> URL where I could get this new version of FrameMaker, downloaded it, and
> installed it.
>
>
>
> The icon looks the same as FM 2019. The new version self-identifies as
> version 16, not 2020. I don't see any obvious changes off the bat. Anyone
> have any idea what the new changes to FM 2020 are, other than 2019 cannot
> open 2020 files?
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Sean
>
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
> Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
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> http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
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> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
>
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[Framers] FrameMaker 2020 vs 2019

[techwordsmith]

Hi all,

 

I was using FM 2019 sporadically. I received files back from a translator in
a version of FM I could not open. Notpad showed it was FM 16, which I found
was 2020.

 

I was never notified by Adobe about the new version, any upgrade, etc.,
despite being subscribed. That was a bit annoying.

 

Anyway, after a lengthy but successful support call, I was shown a secret
URL where I could get this new version of FrameMaker, downloaded it, and
installed it.

 

The icon looks the same as FM 2019. The new version self-identifies as
version 16, not 2020. I don't see any obvious changes off the bat. Anyone
have any idea what the new changes to FM 2020 are, other than 2019 cannot
open 2020 files?

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[Lin Sims]

Interleaf still exists, but it's called Quicksilver these days.

https://broadvision.com/products/quicksilver/quicksilver-overview/

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 12:24 PM Steve Rickaby 
wrote:

> At 16:55 -0600 12/10/21,  wrote:
>
> I tend to agree: all software eventually 'dies' as technology moves on.
> Look at Interleaf, for example. But with the cost and effort required to
> rewrite FrameMaker from scratch, including structure support, I don't see
> it happening. In theory, though, it can be done incrementally, using code
> refactoring.
>
> There is a maybe bright light on the horizon for us old folk. I read that
> Cobol programmers can command astronomical fees these days to keep
> 'essential' banking software alive. Just an idea... :-)
>
> --
> Steve
> ___
>
-- 
Lin Sims
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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[Peter Gold]

A good reason NOT to speed-read technically-dense material, is that one
tends to take humor seriously. For example, I'm imagining recalling retired
engineers refactoring original FM code into COBOL!  :)


Thanks for the image, Steve!

IIRC, the original proposals for FM were made by language-oriented folks
seeking ways to *process* *language* with computers, rather than engineers
looking for cool stuff to program.

Technical writing is a hybrid of  language and an underlying system to
revise and manipulate it. Those who are good at practicing it, can't help
but want it to continuously improve while serving its purpose, just as they
do.



On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 11:23 AM Steve Rickaby 
wrote:

At 16:55 -0600 12/10/21,  wrote:

>I can give details if interested, but I just wanted to chime in to the
>thread from a few weeks ago, where someone stated that they feel that Adobe
>hates their customers. . .

I think that was me.

Long time past, I took a great many textbooks directly to press using
FrameMaker and PDF as a pre-press format. Problems were few and solvable,
and the only time I had to have recourse to FrameMaker support was in 1997,
when an author, who had written his ms in Frame, had managed to create
massive equations that would not 'fold'. These jobs included more than one
using structure FrameMaker.

All that was in FrameMaker version 7. Judging by what I read here, things
don't seem to have improved much since Adobe hived FrameMaker off to India.

At 19:43 + 13/10/21, nuhDEEN wrote:

>However, the effort and expense to maintain the FM might be better spent
on developing a completely new underlying software design that seems to
work the same from a user's point-of-view

I tend to agree: all software eventually 'dies' as technology moves on.
Look at Interleaf, for example. But with the cost and effort required to
rewrite FrameMaker from scratch, including structure support, I don't see
it happening. In theory, though, it can be done incrementally, using code
refactoring.

There is a maybe bright light on the horizon for us old folk. I read that
Cobol programmers can command astronomical fees these days to keep
'essential' banking software alive. Just an idea... :-)

--
Steve
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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[Steve Rickaby]

At 16:55 -0600 12/10/21,  wrote:

>I can give details if interested, but I just wanted to chime in to the
>thread from a few weeks ago, where someone stated that they feel that Adobe
>hates their customers. . .

I think that was me.

Long time past, I took a great many textbooks directly to press using 
FrameMaker and PDF as a pre-press format. Problems were few and solvable, and 
the only time I had to have recourse to FrameMaker support was in 1997, when an 
author, who had written his ms in Frame, had managed to create massive 
equations that would not 'fold'. These jobs included more than one using 
structure FrameMaker.

All that was in FrameMaker version 7. Judging by what I read here, things don't 
seem to have improved much since Adobe hived FrameMaker off to India.

At 19:43 + 13/10/21, nuhDEEN wrote:

>However, the effort and expense to maintain the FM might be better spent on 
>developing a completely new underlying software design that seems to work the 
>same from a user's point-of-view

I tend to agree: all software eventually 'dies' as technology moves on. Look at 
Interleaf, for example. But with the cost and effort required to rewrite 
FrameMaker from scratch, including structure support, I don't see it happening. 
In theory, though, it can be done incrementally, using code refactoring.

There is a maybe bright light on the horizon for us old folk. I read that Cobol 
programmers can command astronomical fees these days to keep 'essential' 
banking software alive. Just an idea... :-)

-- 
Steve
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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[Klaus Daube]

On 13 Oct 2021 at 14:21, Peter Gold wrote:

> In the old days, Adobe had beta-test (AKA pre-release) programs, for which
> interested volunteers who represent a range of users from single-person
> business to large enterprises with multiple seats, could apply. Is there a
> FM beta-test program now? Is anyone on this list in the program? 

Hello Peter,
Yes, there is still a beta test program, and some people on this list 
(including me) 
are (semi-) active in that program.
It is not that Adobe does nothing, but at least for me (I'm not in real 
business any 
more, fully retired) essential things aka old bugs are not targetted in the 
desired 
manner. Obviously the focus what FM shall do has changed and no more identical 
to my 
spot light...

Yes, one of the nastiest areas where I had complained many times and needed 
help from 
Adobe experts is realted to installation and licensing. I know, my situation is 
strange, as I have installed (and running on Win10) FM-6 ... 16. And yes, I'm 
not a fan 
at all of subscriptions and cloud. I want to 'own' software...

Klaus

~~~
Klaus Daube Phone:  +41-44-381 37 77
Schäracher 11   Mail:   kl...@daube.ch
CH-8053 Zürich  Web:www.daube.ch


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Re: [Framers] Other tools

[Peter Gold]

Affinity Publisher lacks FM- and iD- technical-authoring tools, like
x-refs, hierarchical running H/Fs, multi-file books.

The Serif AP user forum reveals that footnotes were added after being
requested. This stirs optimism that other feature requests will be
fulfilled ... in due time.

Requests for FM table rows and footnotes that can split across text frame
boundaries likewise ... in due time.

Some features are essential to delivering projects. Some aren't.

The ability to meet deadlines and requirements rules one's choice of
professional tools ... in real time.

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 7:17 AM Shmuel Wolfson  wrote:

> Affinity looks great for magazines, but it currently lacks support for
> cross-references, so it's not an option for books IMHO. But it seems
> like it is a feature thta they want to add. See
>
> https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/120048-cross-reference-support/page/2/=comments#comment-844902
>
> I'm not sure about online help. It seems to have a "web" option, but I
> couldn't find any videos about that option, so I can't tell if it would
> be an option for online help.
>
>
> On 14-Oct-21 2:00 PM, D B wrote:
> > Someone mentioned Affinity here, so I installed it.  It looks like it
> has a
> > lot of potential, but It was more than I needed right now so I didn't put
> > much effort into using it.
> >
> > Doug
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 2:49 AM Caroline Tabach <
> caroline.tab...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Someone said they hesitated to recommend Frame because of recent
> >> installation issues, so told a company to try something else.
> >>
> >> Can you tell me what it was?
> >>
> >> We need to put our docs online
> >>
> >> Caroline Tabach
> >> ___
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Re: [Framers] Other tools

[nuhDEEN]

 If you have the option of porting to a different authoring system for your 
source docs, I've long been a fan (and MVP) of WebWorks ePublisher. It's very 
flexible and you can create multiple outputs.
Nadine
On Thursday, October 14, 2021, 11:07:00 a.m. EDT, Caroline Tabach 
 wrote:  
 
 After leaving Framemaker (which I worked with for about 20 years!), I arrived 
at a company which publishes everything directly to the web using Document360. 
But this doesn't do everything I want, so I am looking into different options, 
to publish to the web, create PDF files if required, as well as make a html 5 
help file.
So I am looking for something else 
Happy to hear ideas offline
Caroline Tabach
On Thu, 14 Oct 2021, 16:08 nuhDEEN,  wrote:

 Caroline, what are you using now to create your source docs?
Nadine
On Thursday, October 14, 2021, 08:34:23 a.m. EDT, Shmuel Wolfson 
 wrote:  
 
 Affinity looks great for magazines, but it currently lacks support for 
cross-references, so it's not an option for books IMHO. But it seems 
like it is a feature thta they want to add. See 
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/120048-cross-reference-support/page/2/=comments#comment-844902

I'm not sure about online help. It seems to have a "web" option, but I 
couldn't find any videos about that option, so I can't tell if it would 
be an option for online help.


On 14-Oct-21 2:00 PM, D B wrote:
> Someone mentioned Affinity here, so I installed it.  It looks like it has a
> lot of potential, but It was more than I needed right now so I didn't put
> much effort into using it.
>
> Doug
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 2:49 AM Caroline Tabach 
> wrote:
>
>> Someone said they hesitated to recommend Frame because of recent
>> installation issues, so told a company to try something else.
>>
>> Can you tell me what it was?
>>
>> We need to put our docs online
>>
>> Caroline Tabach
>> ___
>>
>> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>>
>> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
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>>
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Re: [Framers] Other tools

[Caroline Tabach]

After leaving Framemaker (which I worked with for about 20 years!), I
arrived at a company which publishes everything directly to the web using
Document360.
But this doesn't do everything I want, so I am looking into different
options, to publish to the web, create PDF files if required, as well as
make a html 5 help file.

So I am looking for something else

Happy to hear ideas offline

Caroline Tabach

On Thu, 14 Oct 2021, 16:08 nuhDEEN,  wrote:

> Caroline, what are you using now to create your source docs?
>
> Nadine
>
> On Thursday, October 14, 2021, 08:34:23 a.m. EDT, Shmuel Wolfson <
> shmue...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Affinity looks great for magazines, but it currently lacks support for
> cross-references, so it's not an option for books IMHO. But it seems
> like it is a feature thta they want to add. See
>
> https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/120048-cross-reference-support/page/2/=comments#comment-844902
>
> I'm not sure about online help. It seems to have a "web" option, but I
> couldn't find any videos about that option, so I can't tell if it would
> be an option for online help.
>
>
> On 14-Oct-21 2:00 PM, D B wrote:
> > Someone mentioned Affinity here, so I installed it.  It looks like it
> has a
> > lot of potential, but It was more than I needed right now so I didn't put
> > much effort into using it.
> >
> > Doug
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 2:49 AM Caroline Tabach <
> caroline.tab...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Someone said they hesitated to recommend Frame because of recent
> >> installation issues, so told a company to try something else.
> >>
> >> Can you tell me what it was?
> >>
> >> We need to put our docs online
> >>
> >> Caroline Tabach
> >> ___
> >>
> >> This message is from the Framers mailing list
> >>
> >> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
> >> Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
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> >> http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> >> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
>
> >>
> > ___
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Re: [Framers] Other tools

[nuhDEEN]

 Caroline, what are you using now to create your source docs?
Nadine
On Thursday, October 14, 2021, 08:34:23 a.m. EDT, Shmuel Wolfson 
 wrote:  
 
 Affinity looks great for magazines, but it currently lacks support for 
cross-references, so it's not an option for books IMHO. But it seems 
like it is a feature thta they want to add. See 
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/120048-cross-reference-support/page/2/=comments#comment-844902

I'm not sure about online help. It seems to have a "web" option, but I 
couldn't find any videos about that option, so I can't tell if it would 
be an option for online help.


On 14-Oct-21 2:00 PM, D B wrote:
> Someone mentioned Affinity here, so I installed it.  It looks like it has a
> lot of potential, but It was more than I needed right now so I didn't put
> much effort into using it.
>
> Doug
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 2:49 AM Caroline Tabach 
> wrote:
>
>> Someone said they hesitated to recommend Frame because of recent
>> installation issues, so told a company to try something else.
>>
>> Can you tell me what it was?
>>
>> We need to put our docs online
>>
>> Caroline Tabach
>> ___
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>> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>>
>> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
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Re: [Framers] Other tools

[Shmuel Wolfson]

Affinity looks great for magazines, but it currently lacks support for 
cross-references, so it's not an option for books IMHO. But it seems 
like it is a feature thta they want to add. See 
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/120048-cross-reference-support/page/2/=comments#comment-844902


I'm not sure about online help. It seems to have a "web" option, but I 
couldn't find any videos about that option, so I can't tell if it would 
be an option for online help.



On 14-Oct-21 2:00 PM, D B wrote:

Someone mentioned Affinity here, so I installed it.  It looks like it has a
lot of potential, but It was more than I needed right now so I didn't put
much effort into using it.

Doug


On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 2:49 AM Caroline Tabach 
wrote:


Someone said they hesitated to recommend Frame because of recent
installation issues, so told a company to try something else.

Can you tell me what it was?

We need to put our docs online

Caroline Tabach
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Re: [Framers] Other tools

[D B]

Someone mentioned Affinity here, so I installed it.  It looks like it has a
lot of potential, but It was more than I needed right now so I didn't put
much effort into using it.

Doug


On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 2:49 AM Caroline Tabach 
wrote:

> Someone said they hesitated to recommend Frame because of recent
> installation issues, so told a company to try something else.
>
> Can you tell me what it was?
>
> We need to put our docs online
>
> Caroline Tabach
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
> Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
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> http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
>
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Re: [Framers] Why so many of us feel the way we do about Adobe

[Shmuel Wolfson]

   To continue my previous email, I agree that if PDF is not an output you
   supply to the customers, than there are lots of good options out there
   that may be cheaper than FM and have other benefits. But there are
   plenty of products out there that still come with a PDF, or have one
   available if you go to their support page. I don't know how people can
   say that PDF is dead. I've never has a cellphone or a printer that I
   could not download it's manual. On the other hand, those type of
   products don't need online help, so you could use any page layout
   program for them. It could by that my company is someone unique in
   needed nice PDFs for most products, and online help for others.
   --
   Shmuel Wolfson
   Technical Writer
   058-763-7133
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Re: [Framers] Why so many of us feel the way we do about Adobe

[Shmuel Wolfson]

I don't know why everyone likes bashing FrameMaker.

Is there anything else that:
• Is suitable for long books.
• Gives you PDF output as is appears while you are working (WYSIWYG).
• Can be converted to online help, (even if it requires buying an extra 
program).


FM happens to have online help conversion built-in, but I could live 
without that if that was another decent authoring tool that worked 
together with another decently priced conversion tool.


Word comes close to checking all those boxes, but has problems with 
large files and other issues.


Someone mention another page layout program recently, but I forgot what 
it was. Maybe it was Xara Page & Layout Designer. But can it do online 
help at all?


Please post if you know of another authoring tool that is excellent for 
PDFs and can be used for online help.


My biggest gripe with FM is the price, but you know what, you really 
don't need to buy every new version that comes out. Do you buy every new 
smartphone that comes out, or wait until you need a new phone? Anyone 
under 20 is excluded from answering that question :)


--
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
058-763-7133

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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[Reng Winfried]

Hi,

OK. I did not have such severe problems as some of you.
My impression is that Adobe and the FrameMaker development reacts 
much more quickly than "in the good old days", when there was no-one 
from Adobe to talk to. And at least now FrameMaker is as stable as
e.g. FM 7.
Adobe now also releases updates every some months to fix bugs and 
to add new features.
Some years ago there was nothing.

Yes. Everything can be better, but the situation is not as bad as some
of you imply.

Best regards

Winfried

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On Behalf 
Of tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 12:55 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" 
the way we do about Adobe

Because every single solitary time that I have to uninstall/reinstall an Adobe 
app., I hold my breath to see what kind of friggin' rabbit hole Adobe takes me 
down and yep, it pulled a doozy on me this week, and thanks to Adobe, I lost a 
good 2 hours' worth of work to get my system back up to 'snuff. 

 

I can give details if interested, but I just wanted to chime in to the thread 
from a few weeks ago, where someone stated that they feel that Adobe hates 
their customers. . . well, yea, I understand that feeling. I LOVE Adobe 
products. . . I HATE installing/uninstalling them and I hate that Adobe 
apparently does absolutely NO regression/system testing on their stuff when it 
comes to this.

 

Count me in as another very dissatisfied and p*ssed off Adobe customer who is 
grateful to be semi-retired and not having to deal w/ this cr*p for much longer.

 

Tammy Van Boening

Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com

www.spectrumwritingllc.com
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[Framers] Other tools

[Caroline Tabach]

Someone said they hesitated to recommend Frame because of recent
installation issues, so told a company to try something else.

Can you tell me what it was?

We need to put our docs online

Caroline Tabach
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Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe users "feel" the way we do about Adobe

[Caroline Tabach]

Well, I had Frame 7 for ages and ages, and used to see all the stories on
forums, so never moved till we got Windows 10 and then went straight to
frame 2015, so did not encounter these issues.

Now I am in a place which is not using Frame

Caroline Tabach

On Wed, 13 Oct 2021, 23:17 ,  wrote:

> Yea, pretty much. . . I figured after the installation fiascos that
> started with the first attempt at the Technical Communication Suite (TCS,
> 2009 - remember that!), Adobe had to catch on fast about this issue, but
> apparently that has not been the case. . . it was horrible then and has
> stayed just as horrible now. . . at the time, I remember that I referred to
> TCS as "Totally Cr*ppy Software.)
>
> I was an early adopter, and learned fast NOT to be in the case of Adobe. .
> . that hosed my system so badly that I had to basically take it down to
> bare metal and set everything up from scratch again and I was not the only
> one who suffered such a fate. . .
>
> Tammy Van Boening
> Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> www.spectrumwritingllc.com
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Framers  > bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> > Behalf Of Peter Gold
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 1:34 PM
> > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> > 
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> >
> > Egad, Tammy! Are you saying, "At least it hasn't gotten worse?" :)
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 2:23 PM 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I just remember a conversation that I had with Dov many years ago when
> > > I was still attending conferences and even back then, I was lamenting
> > > about all that Adobe could do so wrong when it came to
> > > installing/reinstalling/uninstalling and Dov's comment to me was that
> > > a gentleman at the sister conference had commented to Dov "When in the
> > > H*LL is Adobe going to stop screwing up my systems!!!"
> > >
> > > Even after 20+ years of this, nothing has apparently changed and that
> > > is sad.
> > >
> > > TVB
> > >
> > >
> > > Tammy Van Boening
> > > Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> > > www.spectrumwritingllc.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Framers  > > > bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc@lists.frameusers.com> On
> > > > Behalf Of A Craig
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 12:06 PM
> > > > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software.
> > > > 
> > > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > > > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I wholeheartedly agree — except, sadly, I'm not semi-retired.
> > > >
> > > > Alison
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com
> > > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker, software."
> > > > 
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, 12 October, 2021 15:55:26
> > > > Subject: [Framers] Stefan wanted to know why so many of us Adobe
> > > > users "feel" the way we do about Adobe
> > > >
> > > > Because every single solitary time that I have to
> > > > uninstall/reinstall an
> > > Adobe
> > > > app., I hold my breath to see what kind of friggin' rabbit hole
> > > > Adobe
> > > takes me
> > > > down and yep, it pulled a doozy on me this week, and thanks to
> > > > Adobe, I
> > > lost
> > > > a good 2 hours' worth of work to get my system back up to 'snuff.
> > > >
> > > > I can give details if interested, but I just wanted to chime in to
> > > > the
> > > thread
> > > > from a few weeks ago, where someone stated that they feel that Adobe
> > > > hates their customers. . . well, yea, I understand that feeling. I
> > > > LOVE
> > > Adobe
> > > > products. . . I HATE installing/uninstalling them and I hate that
> > > > Adobe apparently does absolutely NO regression/system testing on
> > > > their stuff when it comes to this.
> > > >
> > > > Count me in as another very dissatisfied and p*ssed off Adobe
> > > > customer who is grateful to be semi-retired and not having to deal
> > > > w/ this cr*p
> > > for
> > > > much longer.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Tammy Van Boening
> > > > Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> > > > www.spectrumwritingllc.com _
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >  > > > ampaign=sig-e
> > > >
> > mail_content=emailclient?utm_medium=email_source=link
> > > > _campaign=s
> > > > ig-email_content=emailclient> Scanned by McAfee
> > > >
> >  > > > ampaign=sig-e
> > > >
> > mail_content=emailclient?utm_medium=email_source=link
> > > > _campaign=s
> > > > ig-email_content=emailclient> and confirmed virus-free.
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