Re: [Framers] Does new FrameMaker actually split footnotes across pages?

[Graeme R Forbes]

Klause Daube wrote: “Fact is:
FM 16...just moves the whole note to be on the same page as the reference 
number, leaving a big ugly gap on the page.”

And it’s 2021. Extraordinary. It’s not as if Adobe doesn’t employ people who 
know how to do footnotes — they work fine in InDesign. So I guess that in FM 
you are still stuck with the early 90's technique of manually splitting using 
an anchored frame for the overflow.

Graeme Forbes
___

This message is from the Framers mailing list

Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com

Re: [Framers] Framers Digest, Vol 161, Issue 8

[Graeme R Forbes]

> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 08:16:14 +1200
> From: Alan Litchfield 
> ...and it was an unfortunate mistake to allow the 
> stoush with Apple (if that was what it is was) close the door on having 
> FM on the Mac.

The official Adobe explanation at the time, iirc, was that sale of upgrades 
from earlier versions to FM7 had been “disappointing” on the Mac side. This 
sounded to me like they were looking for an excuse to discontinue it on the 
Mac. The most common request from Mac users was that an OSX-native version of 
FM be created. FM7 added some bells and whistles (e.g. structured FM included) 
but hardly enough to justify the upgrade cost for many Mac users: crucially, it 
wasn’t OSX-native, meaning it was going to be doomed when Apple dropped Classic 
as a consequence of switching from PowerPC to Intel chips (10.4, “Tiger” I 
think, was the last OS to ship with Classic, an emulation of OS9). Without any 
reassurance that an X-native version was in the works, it was entirely 
predictable that the upgrade to FM7 would sell poorly to Mac customers. I’ve 
always assumed that Adobe just decided that the development cost of an X-native 
version wasn’t recoverable, especially if you factored in likely extra sales of 
InDesign to Mac users as  a substitute (or Windows FM to run in a vm). I hadn’t 
heard of some behind the scenes dispute with Apple, tho’ of course that could 
be part of the explanation as well.

Two or three years ago there was a query from someone at Adobe, either on this 
list or the old “FM for OSX” webpage (no longer exists, it seems), trying to 
gauge demand for a new Mac version of FM. Wonder what became of that? But this 
from Stefan Gentz of Adobe a bit over a year ago:

“If there is a substantial interest in the market for a FrameMaker for MacOS 
version, we will look at it. Currently, the situation is simply, that the 
number of tech writers working on a Mac is vanishingly low compared to the 
Windows community. And those who are doing tech writing on Mac are usually 
happy with InDesign.” Something of a hen-or-egg issue here...

Graeme Forbes
___

This message is from the Framers mailing list

Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com

Re: Jeremy H. Griffith, 1942-2014

[Graeme R Forbes]

 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 12:55:11 -0700
 From: Carolyn Stallard cstall...@omsys.com
 To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
 Subject: Jeremy H. Griffith, 1942-2014
 
 
 All, Jeremy's widow Debra is reading your kind condolences.  She says she is
 deeply touched and grateful that so many of his friends appreciated Jeremy's
 work...I am so happy that his work was truly appreciated.
 
 --C


Very sorry to hear about Jeremy. As well as not charging the unemployed for 
Mif2Go, he wouldn't accept anything from students or faculty. I remember doing 
my best to get him to let me pay, but he wouldn't budge. And he didn't stint at 
all on support, despite it.

Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com.

Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com.

To unsubscribe send a blank email to
framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: Does a FrameMaker Reader/Viewer exist?

[Graeme R Forbes]

 So FrameViewer didn't seem to serve any useful purpose.

It does now. I can't open any of my 14 years worth of FM docs on the Macs I 
spend most of my time on nowadays. Something like FrameViewer would be very 
useful, just to remind myself of the content of the docs. Not that I have the 
slightest expectation of Adobe ever considering such a product.

Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com.

Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com.

To unsubscribe send a blank email to
framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Does a FrameMaker Reader/Viewer exist?

[Graeme R Forbes]

> So FrameViewer didn't seem to serve any useful purpose.

It does now. I can't open any of my 14 years worth of FM docs on the Macs I 
spend most of my time on nowadays. Something like FrameViewer would be very 
useful, just to remind myself of the content of the docs. Not that I have the 
slightest expectation of Adobe ever considering such a product.

Graeme Forbes

OT: FM and InDesign

[Graeme R Forbes]

> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 13:55:34 -0800
> From: Alison Craig 
> To: "framers at lists.frameusers.com" 
> Subject: OT: FM and InDesign
> 
> I don't use InDesign at all, so can someone tell me if it's possible to open 
> FM9 files in InDesign?
> 
> I'm hoping as they're both Adobe products, there's some kind of support.
> 
> Alison


Jeremy's right, take Eliot's advice and wait without hope.

But in the meantime, you could try MIF Filter from DTP Tools 
(http://www.dtptools.com/). You pay per page: buy page credits in advance, save 
the FM doc as MIF, open the MIF using MIF Filter from within InDesign, and if 
the result is acceptable, save as an ID document. Your account isn't charged 
until you save, so you can inspect the conversion results and decide if you 
want to pay for them. I guess you can test MF by installing it and running a 
conversion without buying page credits, then buy the credits if you like the 
output. 

I've found MF to be pretty successful, but not entirely successful. Recently, I 
had to work on a document I wrote in 2000, but it was sufficiently complicated 
that I decided it would be simplest to work on an old Mac that ran FM7, rather 
than clean up the ID doc MF produced. In other cases, the ID doc was fine. So 
ymmv. I've found their online support to be excellent, normally.

Graeme Forbes
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Graeme R Forbes]

Rob: I switched to ID when Apple dropped Classic and Adobe reneged on its 
promise to make all its major applications PPC/OSX native. The grass on the 
other side is somewhat greener, especially if you're having stability issues 
with FM and resent having to break footnotes across pages manually. I run ID 
(CS4) under Snow Leopard now and previously under Tiger. In the last year the 
only crashes I've had related to third-party plug-ins. You can use ID in 
FM-style, where each doc is a bunch of body pages tied to particular master 
pages of your own design. Footnotes behave correctly. But if you rely heavily, 
as I did, on FM's x-ref abilities, you'll probably find ID's built-in ones 
inadequate (among other limitations, it can't x-ref footnote numbers!). The 
best solution to this problem is to buy DTP Tools' X-ref Pro, which equals or 
exceeds what FM can do. On the minus side, it's 99e on top of what you pay for 
ID; on the plus side, it's really good and DTP Tools has excellent cus
 tomer support.

Graeme Forbes

Sent from my iPad
___


You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com.

Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com.

To unsubscribe send a blank email to
framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

FrameMaker vs InDesign

[Graeme R Forbes]

Rob: I switched to ID when Apple dropped Classic and Adobe reneged on its 
promise to make all its "major" applications PPC/OSX native. The grass on the 
other side is somewhat greener, especially if you're having stability issues 
with FM and resent having to break footnotes across pages manually. I run ID 
(CS4) under Snow Leopard now and previously under Tiger. In the last year the 
only crashes I've had related to third-party plug-ins. You can use ID in 
FM-style, where each doc is a bunch of body pages tied to particular master 
pages of your own design. Footnotes behave correctly. But if you rely heavily, 
as I did, on FM's x-ref abilities, you'll probably find ID's built-in ones 
inadequate (among other limitations, it can't x-ref footnote numbers!). The 
best solution to this problem is to buy DTP Tools' X-ref Pro, which equals or 
exceeds what FM can do. On the minus side, it's 99e on top of what you pay for 
ID; on the plus side, it's really good and DTP Tools has excellent customer 
support.

Graeme Forbes

Sent from my iPad

icons on new Macs

[Graeme R Forbes]

Does anyone know how to get FM7 (and earlier) document icons to  
appear on the desktop on Macs without Classic? On my new intel iMac  
running Snow Leopard I see that the icons for some OS9 apps like  
PageMill appear correctly, but all I get for FrameMaker docs is an  
ugly generic icon.


Thanks,
Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com.

Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com.

To unsubscribe send a blank email to
framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

icons on new Macs

[Graeme R Forbes]

Does anyone know how to get FM7 (and earlier) document icons to  
appear on the desktop on Macs without Classic? On my new intel iMac  
running Snow Leopard I see that the icons for some OS9 apps like  
PageMill appear correctly, but all I get for FrameMaker docs is an  
ugly generic icon.

Thanks,
Graeme Forbes

Re: autonumber at end of text is mis-aligned

[Graeme R Forbes]

Leigh:

It's been a while since I used FrameMaker, but iirc, the way I would  
get the effect of an autonumber in the position where I wanted it was  
to let FM put it into one of the official positions, but in tiny  
invisible text, and then use an x-ref to that number to make it  
appear where I wanted it to.


Graeme Forbes




Message: 2
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 13:11:51 -0600
From: LW White lwwhi...@hotmail.com
To: FrameUsersDigest framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: autonumber at end of text is mis-aligned
Message-ID: blu144-w1571c5bd0e5514a7ce466986...@phx.gbl
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1


I'm trying to add some text as autonumbering at the end of a  
paragraph. Regardless of the justification setting for the  
paragraph format, the autonumber is right-justified, creating a LOT  
of blank space between the paragraph text and the autonumber. In  
other words, I want


Blah blah blah - Continued

(where -Continued is the autonumber)

but I get

Blah blah  
blah..-  
Continued|


where | is the right margin and the dots represent blank space.  
Happens regardless of whether the autonumber is text, a building  
block, whatever. What's up with this?


Thanks,
Leigh



___


You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com.

Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com.

To unsubscribe send a blank email to
framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

autonumber at end of text is mis-aligned

[Graeme R Forbes]

Leigh:

It's been a while since I used FrameMaker, but iirc, the way I would  
get the effect of an autonumber in the position where I wanted it was  
to let FM put it into one of the official positions, but in tiny  
invisible text, and then use an x-ref to that number to make it  
appear where I wanted it to.

Graeme Forbes


>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 13:11:51 -0600
> From: LW White 
> To: FrameUsersDigest 
> Subject: autonumber at end of text is mis-aligned
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> I'm trying to add some text as autonumbering at the end of a  
> paragraph. Regardless of the justification setting for the  
> paragraph format, the autonumber is right-justified, creating a LOT  
> of blank space between the paragraph text and the autonumber. In  
> other words, I want
>
> Blah blah blah - Continued
>
> (where "-Continued" is the autonumber)
>
> but I get
>
> Blah blah  
> blah..-  
> Continued|
>
> where | is the right margin and the dots represent blank space.  
> Happens regardless of whether the autonumber is text, a building  
> block, whatever. What's up with this?
>
> Thanks,
> Leigh
>

RE: Thought for the day

[Graeme R Forbes]

In addition to alarmed doors, the UK sports a lot of disabled  
toilets. Must be a shortage of plumbers!


Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com.

Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com.

To unsubscribe send a blank email to
framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: Standard font for technical documentation

[Graeme R Forbes]

Syed said:

Helvetica for all headers. I used to use Arial, but was clearly shown
(in this list! :)) that Helvetica looks a lot better in larger sizes
(like headers) and in printed form - better curves, etc.


I missed this discussion but I'm not surprised. I've read in more than one 
place 
in the typographical literature that Arial was a cheap knock-off of Helvetica 
that 
Microsoft cobbled together to avoid paying royalties (to Herman Zapf or 
Linotype?). (This story may be false but it *sounds* true!) Apparently there is 
no 
way that font designers can protect their work -- anyone with the right 
software 
can copy what may have taken months of effort, change the name, and sell it or 
give it away.

Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com.

Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com.

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Standard font for technical documentation

[Graeme R Forbes]

Syed said:

"Helvetica for all headers. I used to use Arial, but was clearly shown
(in this list! :)) that Helvetica looks a lot better in larger sizes
(like headers) and in printed form - better curves, etc."


I missed this discussion but I'm not surprised. I've read in more than one 
place 
in the typographical literature that Arial was a cheap knock-off of Helvetica 
that 
Microsoft cobbled together to avoid paying royalties (to Herman Zapf or 
Linotype?). (This story may be false but it *sounds* true!) Apparently there is 
no 
way that font designers can protect their work -- anyone with the right 
software 
can copy what may have taken months of effort, change the name, and sell it or 
give it away.

Graeme Forbes

invisible mif2go files created in VPC on Mac

[Graeme R Forbes]

I'm trying to convert a MacFM 7 document to rtf, using mif2go plugged  
into FM7.1 on XP in Virtual PC running in Classic under Tiger on my  
Mac. I did this once before, a couple of months ago, no problem. This  
time I do the exact same thing and I end up with the rtf file, I  
think, but it's invisible on my Mac (even to search for invisible  
files) both in the Finder and to MacFM and Mac Word. But both  
Windows FM and Windows Acrobat Reader can see the file (and others  
that were created during the conversion). I don't have Windows Word  
and need to be able to see the file outside Windows to work on it.  
Any ideas why it remains stubbornly invisible on my Mac (even to file  
utilities like FileExaminer)?

Thanks,
Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com.

Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com.

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

invisible mif2go files created in VPC on Mac

[Graeme R Forbes]

I'm trying to convert a MacFM 7 document to rtf, using mif2go plugged  
into FM7.1 on XP in Virtual PC running in Classic under Tiger on my  
Mac. I did this once before, a couple of months ago, no problem. This  
time I do the exact same thing and I end up with the rtf file, I  
think, but it's invisible on my Mac (even to "search for invisible  
files") both in the Finder and to MacFM and Mac Word. But both  
Windows FM and Windows Acrobat Reader can see the file (and others  
that were created during the conversion). I don't have Windows Word  
and need to be able to see the file outside Windows to work on it.  
Any ideas why it remains stubbornly invisible on my Mac (even to file  
utilities like FileExaminer)?

Thanks,
Graeme Forbes

Re: asterisks and footnote numbers

[Graeme R Forbes]

Tina:

 I'm doing editing and layout of a large set of academic papers that  
 have
 loads of footnotes. The organization I'm working for wants to use both
 asterisks AND footnotes in the papers.



When I've wanted to do this I've just typed the asterisk after the  
title, and put an anchored frame into the title (entered the marker  
there), with frame position set to bottom of column if there are no  
real footnotes on the page. Draw a text frame inside the anchored  
frame, set its attributes, and enter the note text. You can probably  
use the same paragraph tag as you use for real footnotes, if not,  
create one, e.g., Headnote, with the attributes you want (including  
asterisk as autonumber). A hassle, and I'd be interested to know if  
you get a better suggestion.

I forget what happens if there are real footnotes on the first page  
-- you may find bottom of column puts the frame below these notes,  
instead of above them. In that case, I think you have to insert the  
anchored frame in the first footnote, with top of column as the  
position. This will put the frame immediately above the note, not, as  
you might expect, at the top of the page. Then proceed as above. In  
this case you have to watch that further editing doesn't push the  
text of the first real footnote onto page 2, taking the headnote with  
it. If this happens, display markers, cut the frame, and paste it  
into the title, then reset its position to bottom of column.

If you need asterisks anywhere else in a paper, some variant of the  
above should work, tho' once you get further into the paper, the  
chances of editing messing up position will increase.

If you want anything more complicated, e.g. 2 independently  
autonumbered sequences of notes, the only feasible method, I think,  
is to use the footnote facility for one series and an autonumbered  
sequence of paragraphs functioning as endnotes for the other, with  
cross-refs-to-endnotes in the text formatted to look like note  
reference numbers. (Note that if one of the authors calls you up at  
the last minute and says please interchange sections 2 and 3 your  
endnote x-ref numbers in those sections will be wrongly ordered, and  
will have to be redone.)

Best,
Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

asterisks and footnote numbers

[Graeme R Forbes]

Tina:

> I'm doing editing and layout of a large set of academic papers that  
> have
> loads of footnotes. The organization I'm working for wants to use both
> asterisks AND footnotes in the papers.



When I've wanted to do this I've just typed the asterisk after the  
title, and put an anchored frame into the title (entered the marker  
there), with frame position set to bottom of column if there are no  
real footnotes on the page. Draw a text frame inside the anchored  
frame, set its attributes, and enter the note text. You can probably  
use the same paragraph tag as you use for real footnotes, if not,  
create one, e.g., "Headnote", with the attributes you want (including  
asterisk as autonumber). A hassle, and I'd be interested to know if  
you get a better suggestion.

I forget what happens if there are real footnotes on the first page  
-- you may find "bottom of column" puts the frame below these notes,  
instead of above them. In that case, I think you have to insert the  
anchored frame in the first footnote, with "top of column" as the  
position. This will put the frame immediately above the note, not, as  
you might expect, at the top of the page. Then proceed as above. In  
this case you have to watch that further editing doesn't push the  
text of the first real footnote onto page 2, taking the headnote with  
it. If this happens, display markers, cut the frame, and paste it  
into the title, then reset its position to bottom of column.

If you need asterisks anywhere else in a paper, some variant of the  
above should work, tho' once you get further into the paper, the  
chances of editing messing up position will increase.

If you want anything more complicated, e.g. 2 independently  
autonumbered sequences of notes, the only feasible method, I think,  
is to use the footnote facility for one series and an autonumbered  
sequence of paragraphs functioning as endnotes for the other, with  
cross-refs-to-endnotes in the text formatted to look like note  
reference numbers. (Note that if one of the authors calls you up at  
the last minute and says "please interchange sections 2 and 3" your  
endnote x-ref numbers in those sections will be wrongly ordered, and  
will have to be redone.)

Best,
Graeme Forbes

Re: Framers Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24

[Graeme R Forbes]

 While adding an extra space for footnotes helps, it is not a  
 foolproof method either. You might still see some footnote text  
 shifting?randomly?to the next page?while the footnote actually  
 apears on the previous page. This is?not a pleasant?situation  
 especially?if you are working on an academic project. I am hoping  
 Frame would pay attention to this problem.



It's not actually *random* shifting. Assuming that in the footnote  
properties dialog you have a large value for Max height per column  
-- I use 9 -- the footnote text jumps to the next page precisely  
when the length of the note exceeds the available space between the  
line the note number is on and the bottom of the text frame. So if  
you refuse to be bullied by FM's behavior and insist on the text  
breaking correctly across pages -- something Word could do on a Mac  
in 1986 -- you have to use the manual method I described. Or else you  
have to use reader-hostile endnotes, where, once again, you'll likely  
be stuck with a lot of manual fiddling (tho' the footnotes -  
endnotes direction can be scripted).

I think that there is no chance that the problem will ever be fixed.  
I've been told by more than one person at Adobe and previously at  
Frame Tech that it would require massive rewriting of code, and there  
simply isn't enough customer pressure to make that worthwhile. Of  
course, that's because the footnote problem is fairly well known and  
most people who require proper handling of notes avoid FM in the  
first place. Plus, Mac users are probably overrepresented among the  
people who care, because they are overrepresented in academia, and  
Adobe has got rid of them by abandoning development of Mac FM.

I've yet to use footnotes in In Design but I'm assured by various  
people that they work properly there.

Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Framers Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24

[Graeme R Forbes]

> While adding an extra space for footnotes helps, it is not a  
> foolproof method either. You might still see some footnote text  
> shifting?randomly?to the next page?while the footnote actually  
> apears on the previous page. This is?not a pleasant?situation  
> especially?if you are working on an academic project. I am hoping  
> Frame would pay attention to this problem.



It's not actually *random* shifting. Assuming that in the footnote  
properties dialog you have a large value for "Max height per column"  
-- I use 9" -- the footnote text jumps to the next page precisely  
when the length of the note exceeds the available space between the  
line the note number is on and the bottom of the text frame. So if  
you refuse to be bullied by FM's behavior and insist on the text  
breaking correctly across pages -- something Word could do on a Mac  
in 1986 -- you have to use the manual method I described. Or else you  
have to use reader-hostile endnotes, where, once again, you'll likely  
be stuck with a lot of manual fiddling (tho' the footnotes ->  
endnotes direction can be scripted).

I think that there is no chance that the problem will ever be fixed.  
I've been told by more than one person at Adobe and previously at  
Frame Tech that it would require massive rewriting of code, and there  
simply isn't enough customer pressure to make that worthwhile. Of  
course, that's because the footnote problem is fairly well known and  
most people who require proper handling of notes avoid FM in the  
first place. Plus, Mac users are probably overrepresented among the  
people who care, because they are overrepresented in academia, and  
Adobe has got rid of them by abandoning development of Mac FM.

I've yet to use footnotes in In Design but I'm assured by various  
people that they work properly there.

Graeme Forbes

Re: FM under Sheepshaver

[Graeme R Forbes]

 Does anyone have any hints about running Framemaker 7 Mac under the
 OS9 emulator Sheepshaver? It keeps crashing, while all other OS9 aps
 run fine.


There's a lot of discussion of Sheepshaver on the fmforosx yahoo  
group. For example, one contributor says

I had to pull the WebDAV and WebDAVLinks files
from the FrameMaker Modules folder to get it [FM7] to run.

So this might be a god place to look for tips.

Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

FM under Sheepshaver

[Graeme R Forbes]

>
> Does anyone have any hints about running Framemaker 7 Mac under the
> OS9 emulator Sheepshaver? It keeps crashing, while all other OS9 aps
> run fine.


There's a lot of discussion of Sheepshaver on the fmforosx yahoo  
group. For example, one contributor says

"I had to pull the WebDAV and WebDAVLinks files
from the FrameMaker Modules folder to get it [FM7] to run."

So this might be a god place to look for tips.

Graeme Forbes

Re: footnote placement

[Graeme R Forbes]

Been a while since we had one of these, this one from Chris Seal:

Sometimes a footnote reference in text is on one page but the footnote is on 
the following page.  From an editorial viewpoint is it OK to have a footnote on 
the page following the in-text reference? 
If not OK, how do I get FrameMaker to ensure the footnote is on the same 
page as its reference?

Chris: It's not ok if there's enough room at the bottom of the page to fit the 
first 
two or three lines of the note (some would say the first line). And, there is 
no 
automatic way of getting FrameMaker to break notes correctly. There is a 
manual method, which I describe below.

I think it's now safe to assume that this flaw in FM will never be fixed. One 
of 
the few pluses in my being forced to leave FM (i'm on a Mac) is that I leave 
this 
mess behind.

Graeme Forbes


Part II To make footnotes break correctly across (one-column) pages:

The Workaround

Write your document in the normal way, using Frame's footnoting, and ignore 
problem footnotes. Then when you have done everything you have to do that 
could affect page-breaks (including generating a bibliography, if you use 
Endnote or similar), save a new version (doc.fixed) and in it do nothing but 
fix 
the footnotes and print the public version. Go thro' your document (use 
Find/Replace with Find set to Footnote) and see if you have any notes whose 
text is on the wrong page, and if there are some, see if you can reposition 
their 
numbers in the body text, or otherwise edit the note, so that the text jumps 
back to the correct page (a very slight adjustment in line-spacing may do it). 
If 
this can't be done for some note, then if there are no other notes on the page 
that the text of your note has been pushed onto, do (A), and if there are other 
notes on this page, do (B).

(A) Find out how much of the note will fit onto the page it should be on. Do 
this 
by successive cutting and pasting of lines from the bottom of the note until it 
jumps back to the correct page (note that if you do two successive cuts with no 
paste in between you may have lost a chunk of the note's text, and FM lacks 
multiple undo; but you can go back to your original version to recover the lost 
text, since you're working on a copy, right?). Observe how much of the note 
you've cut (memory image!) and estimate how much space you'll need at the 
bottom of the following page for the rest of the note (the rest of the note 
is 
the smallest chunk you can cut off the bottom that makes the uncut part jump 
back to the right page). With the cursor in the line that will (you think) 
become 
the last body text line when the rest of the note is placed, insert an anchored 
frame (choose below current line) that pushes all lower lines of body text 
onto 
the next page. Use the Properties dialog to get the anchored frame to have the 
dimensions and alignment you want. Within the anchored frame create a text 
frame of the right dimensions to hold the final segment of your note, and paste 
that segment into the text frame. (Draw the text frame without too much 
fussing, then use the Properties dialog to get it to be the right width and 
height.)

If you didn't guess right, you can select the anchored frame symbol and cut it 
from its current line, go up or down some lines as appropriate, and paste.

You may want space between the top of the text frame and the top of the 
anchored frame to allow for a separator rule, which you draw with the line tool.

The paragraph format of the text you've pasted into the text frame is probably 
Body and you'll have to change it to, say, Footnote.

(B) If there are other notes on the page that contains the text of your note 
before you start cutting, then follow essentially the same procedure as (A), 
but 
instead of putting the anchored frame for the spillover in a line of body text, 
put it in the first line of the first note following the one you're working on. 
If 
you set the anchored frame position for Top of Column the frame you create 
will be directly above the note its anchor is in, it won't be at the top of the 
page. 
Apparently FM treats the space occupied by footnotes as its own column.


If you are unlucky, A or B may generate a new incorrectly positioned note - the 
space needed for the text of the last note now on the page after inserting the 
frame may not exist, resulting in the entire text of that note getting shifted 
onto the next page. So you have to create more frames and do more cutting and 
pasting.


One other irritant: if you are using right-justification, the last line of the 
part of 
a split note that's on the page with the body-text note-number may not reach 
the edge of the column. The best fix for this is to select the entire bottom 
line 
and apply spread to it, starting with 0.1% and increasing until you get the 
line to 
look justified. Probably 0.5% is as high as you'll have to go.
___

footnote placement

[Graeme R Forbes]

Been a while since we had one of these, this one from Chris Seal:

"Sometimes a footnote reference in text is on one page but the footnote is on 
the following page.  From an editorial viewpoint is it OK to have a footnote on 
the page following the in-text reference? 
If not OK, how do I get FrameMaker to ensure the footnote is on the same 
page as its reference?"

Chris: It's not ok if there's enough room at the bottom of the page to fit the 
first 
two or three lines of the note (some would say the first line). And, there is 
no 
automatic way of getting FrameMaker to break notes correctly. There is a 
manual method, which I describe below.

I think it's now safe to assume that this flaw in FM will never be fixed. One 
of 
the few pluses in my being forced to leave FM (i'm on a Mac) is that I leave 
this 
mess behind.

Graeme Forbes


Part II To make footnotes break correctly across (one-column) pages:

The Workaround

Write your document in the normal way, using Frame's footnoting, and ignore 
problem footnotes. Then when you have done everything you have to do that 
could affect page-breaks (including generating a bibliography, if you use 
Endnote or similar), save a new version ("doc.fixed") and in it do nothing but 
fix 
the footnotes and print the public version. Go thro' your document (use 
Find/Replace with Find set to "Footnote") and see if you have any notes whose 
text is on the wrong page, and if there are some, see if you can reposition 
their 
numbers in the body text, or otherwise edit the note, so that the text jumps 
back to the correct page (a very slight adjustment in line-spacing may do it). 
If 
this can't be done for some note, then if there are no other notes on the page 
that the text of your note has been pushed onto, do (A), and if there are other 
notes on this page, do (B).

(A) Find out how much of the note will fit onto the page it should be on. Do 
this 
by successive cutting and pasting of lines from the bottom of the note until it 
jumps back to the correct page (note that if you do two successive cuts with no 
paste in between you may have lost a chunk of the note's text, and FM lacks 
multiple undo; but you can go back to your original version to recover the lost 
text, since you're working on a copy, right?). Observe how much of the note 
you've cut (memory image!) and estimate how much space you'll need at the 
bottom of the following page for the rest of the note (the "rest of the note" 
is 
the smallest chunk you can cut off the bottom that makes the uncut part jump 
back to the right page). With the cursor in the line that will (you think) 
become 
the last body text line when the rest of the note is placed, insert an anchored 
frame (choose "below current line") that pushes all lower lines of body text 
onto 
the next page. Use the Properties dialog to get the anchored frame to have the 
dimensions and alignment you want. Within the anchored frame create a text 
frame of the right dimensions to hold the final segment of your note, and paste 
that segment into the text frame. (Draw the text frame without too much 
fussing, then use the Properties dialog to get it to be the right width and 
height.)

If you didn't guess right, you can select the anchored frame symbol and cut it 
from its current line, go up or down some lines as appropriate, and paste.

You may want space between the top of the text frame and the top of the 
anchored frame to allow for a separator rule, which you draw with the line tool.

The paragraph format of the text you've pasted into the text frame is probably 
"Body" and you'll have to change it to, say, "Footnote".

(B) If there are other notes on the page that contains the text of your note 
before you start cutting, then follow essentially the same procedure as (A), 
but 
instead of putting the anchored frame for the spillover in a line of body text, 
put it in the first line of the first note following the one you're working on. 
If 
you set the anchored frame position for "Top of Column" the frame you create 
will be directly above the note its anchor is in, it won't be at the top of the 
page. 
Apparently FM treats the space occupied by footnotes as its own column.


If you are unlucky, A or B may generate a new incorrectly positioned note - the 
space needed for the text of the last note now on the page after inserting the 
frame may not exist, resulting in the entire text of that note getting shifted 
onto the next page. So you have to create more frames and do more cutting and 
pasting.


One other irritant: if you are using right-justification, the last line of the 
part of 
a split note that's on the page with the body-text note-number may not reach 
the edge of the column. The best fix for this is to select the entire bottom 
line 
and apply spread to it, starting with 0.1% and increasing until you get the 
line to 
look justified. Probably 0.5% is as high as you'll have to go.

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Graeme R Forbes]

Well, I've started to move from FM to ID, so that I do not remain  
forever stuck with G5 hardware and Tiger. It's with immense  
reluctance that I reward Adobe with more purchases after they dropped  
MacFM...no, let's not get started on that.

The ID learning curve is much steeper. I bought FM3 in 1992/3 and  
immediately started writing a book in it, picking things up as I went  
along  (need an idea for Xmas presents? -- Modern Logic by Graeme  
Forbes -- every home should have one). I don't think you could  do  
that with ID -- hors categorie compared to category 3, Alpe d'Huez vs  
the foothills of the Jura.

Anyway, I've done a few short docs, and am slowly, with many  
expletives deleted, getting the hang of it. I don't use the features  
Dov mentioned -- structure, conditional text, equation editor -- but  
maybe you can get a lot of FM functionality with 3rd party plug-ins.  
For me, the lack of xrefs was a deal-breaker until I discovered that  
DTP Tools, an FM-knowledgeable company, has a plug-in that appears to  
cover, or even improve on, FM's functionality. It's 99 euros, so  
assuming they bill you in euros, the dollar price is steadily  
dropping at the moment.

One thing that bugs me are the ludicrous file sizes. A two-page  
abstract, entirely text, came in at 1.2MB. An FM equivalent would be  
around 28K, which was what the pdf I made from the 1.2MB file also  
came in at. I haven't been able to find anything online about why the  
files are so big or what, if anything, you can do about it (issues  
about graphics are irrelevant in my case).

An attractive feature of ID for me is that it's got correctly  
implemented footnoting.  No more text frames in anchored frames and  
trial-and-error guessing about how much to cut to get the remainder  
to jump back to the right page, then having to redo it all when you  
realize you've made an appalling error on p.2 and fixing it changes  
all subsequent page breaks.

So: although ID isn't specifically intended for writing technical  
documents, nothing appears to make it irrational to use it for that.  
Make a list of what FM features are important/indispensable, and  
check that ID can do the same. Then go to Configure Plug-ins and  
disable all the ones that pertain to the production of eye-candy only.

One really maddening issue is "activation". A single-user license  
only lets you have 2 activations, so if like me you have a home  
desktop, an office desktop, and a laptop, something has to give. I'm  
going to try to appeal to Adobe's sense of natural justice to get a  
third activation for my laptop. Pray for me.

It would be very useful if there were a book, or even if someone just  
had personal notes they were willing to share, about ID from the FM- 
user's point of view: the sort of thing that would say, you can do  
such-and-such in FM easily enough, here's a sequence of steps in ID  
that will also accomplish it.

Graeme Forbes

Re: OT: question about usage

[Graeme R Forbes]

Deirdre wrote:

Those two phrases sound overly complicated to me -- numerical
characters sounds like a complicated way of saying numbers and
ditto alpha characters for letters.

Well, if we're going to be completely accurate, we should distinguish 
numerals and digits, which are symbols, from numbers. For example, 
the arabic 8 and the roman VIII are different numerals, but they 
stand for the same number, namely, the number eight. (eight, 
huit, otto are different words; they all stand for the same 
number). The numerals and words stand for numbers, they aren't 
themselves numbers. There's a section of the Chicago Manual of Style 
hilariously titled Punctuation of Numbers. I wonder how you 
punctuate the number eight?

Numerical character is ghastly stylistically, and also ambiguous. 
Without further context, there's no way of knowing whether the user 
intends it to apply just to digits, or to all arabic numerals (the 
non-digits are sequences or strings of digits), or even to the 
numerals of different notational systems.

Alpha characters is also ambiguous. It ought just to mean 
letters, as you say, so why not use the familiar word? But I've 
seen the term alphanumeric character used to include punctuation 
and other ascii symbols, so I suppose alpha character could include 
the non-numeric ones.

Maybe you should make a polite suggestion to your author, if that's possible!

Best,
Graeme
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

OT: question about usage

[Graeme R Forbes]

Deirdre wrote:

>Those two phrases sound overly complicated to me -- "numerical
>characters" sounds like a complicated way of saying "numbers" and
>ditto "alpha characters" for "letters."

Well, if we're going to be completely accurate, we should distinguish 
numerals and digits, which are symbols, from numbers. For example, 
the arabic "8" and the roman "VIII" are different numerals, but they 
stand for the same number, namely, the number eight. ("eight", 
"huit", "otto" are different words; they all stand for the same 
number). The numerals and words stand for numbers, they aren't 
themselves numbers. There's a section of the Chicago Manual of Style 
hilariously titled "Punctuation of Numbers". I wonder how you 
punctuate the number eight?

"Numerical character" is ghastly stylistically, and also ambiguous. 
Without further context, there's no way of knowing whether the user 
intends it to apply just to digits, or to all arabic numerals (the 
non-digits are sequences or strings of digits), or even to the 
numerals of different notational systems.

"Alpha characters" is also ambiguous. It ought just to mean 
"letters", as you say, so why not use the familiar word? But I've 
seen the term "alphanumeric character" used to include punctuation 
and other ascii symbols, so I suppose "alpha character" could include 
the non-numeric ones.

Maybe you should make a polite suggestion to your author, if that's possible!

Best,
Graeme

Re: footnote trouble

[Graeme R Forbes]

Jacob wrote: We have some footnotes in a structured FrameMaker 
document (7.2) where
the call of the footnote is on one page, but the footnote itself finds
itself on the next page.

It's been awhile since we had this complaint! Sorry, Jacob, assuming 
the problem is that the note requires more space than there is 
between its number in the text and the bottom of the page (so 
fiddling with Footnote Properties won't help), your only options are: 
rewrite the note in fewer and/or shorter words and see if it jumps 
back to the right page, and/or move the number in the text higher up 
the page, if this would make sense (probably doesn't), and/or try a 
tiny adjustment in line spacing. If no combination of these works, 
make the note break across the page using anchored frames and text 
frames. This last procedure takes a bit of describing so I'll send it 
to you (and anyone else who asks) off-list.

The error in notehandling you've come across was programmed in from 
the start, with the result that Frame's never had the penetration in 
academic and legal markets that it otherwise deserves.

Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

footnote trouble

[Graeme R Forbes]

Jacob wrote: "We have some footnotes in a structured FrameMaker 
document (7.2) where
the call of the footnote is on one page, but the footnote itself finds
itself on the next page."

It's been awhile since we had this complaint! Sorry, Jacob, assuming 
the problem is that the note requires more space than there is 
between its number in the text and the bottom of the page (so 
fiddling with Footnote Properties won't help), your only options are: 
rewrite the note in fewer and/or shorter words and see if it jumps 
back to the right page, and/or move the number in the text higher up 
the page, if this would make sense (probably doesn't), and/or try a 
tiny adjustment in line spacing. If no combination of these works, 
make the note break across the page using anchored frames and text 
frames. This last procedure takes a bit of describing so I'll send it 
to you (and anyone else who asks) off-list.

The error in notehandling you've come across was programmed in from 
the start, with the result that Frame's never had the penetration in 
academic and legal markets that it otherwise deserves.

Graeme Forbes

FrameMaker overrides

[Graeme R Forbes]

>Is there any way to search for FrameMaker overrides?

Depends on what you want to do, but if your goal is just to find 
para-level overrides and, say, override them with the default 
paraformat, you could use F/C: check "use wildcards", put the string 
"\p" in the find field, and then click through the document.  Each 
end-of-paragraph symbol will be found, and you can keep your eye on 
the bottom left of the page -- whenever there's an override, there'll 
be an asterisk in front of the name of the paraformat.

If you don't need to know where the overrides are or what they are, 
and if there are a lot of them to be eliminated, it might be simpler 
to import formats from a copy of your document. The Import Formats 
dialog has a setting for removing overrides.

Graeme Forbes

RE: Framemaker Uses

[Graeme R Forbes]

Just out of curiosity, what kinds of documents are people producing in
Framemaker?

Besides research papers, meeting minutes, etc., I wrote a logic 
textbook in FM3 and 4 and a more advanced research monograph in FM7. 
Lots of numbered examples, xrefs to them, fair number of line 
diagrams, and in the latter case (unfortunately) lots of footnotes. 
In doing the textbook I switched from a then-unstable word processor 
with an idiosyncratic xref add-on, but decent footnotes and 
search/replace to die for, namely, Nisus, and what a godsend FM's 
stable anchored frames and xref capacities were. And what a nightmare 
its incorrectly programmed footnote procedures have been ever since. 
I honestly think FM would own the academic market by now if its 
owners had ever put the effort into fixing the footnotes.

Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: OS X 10.4.11 -- can't import files from Word

[Graeme R Forbes]

Steve wrote:

Back in FrameMaker 6 for Mac, for some unfathomable reason, the 
'Japanese' RTF import filter worked better than the other one.

In FM7 I find that the Japanese filter is still the best one, at 
least for export to Word.

Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

OS X 10.4.11 -- can't import files from Word

[Graeme R Forbes]

Steve wrote:

>Back in FrameMaker 6 for Mac, for some unfathomable reason, the 
>'Japanese' RTF import filter worked better than the other one.

In FM7 I find that the Japanese filter is still the best one, at 
least for export to Word.

Graeme Forbes

Re: Autonumber at end of paragraph

[Graeme R Forbes]

Does anyone know of a way to get Frame to put the autonumber
text where the setting for Position implies it will put it: right at the
end of the paragraph -- in other words, immediately after the text I type?


A test of my own docs with autonumbers at the end of paragraphs 
suggests that neither alignment nor tab settings is the problem -- 
the autonumber goes to the far right in every case. However, there is 
a right indent marker whose position can be set in the Paragraph 
Designer or by dragging. If you drag it left the autonumber moves 
with it. But you'd have to do this manually every time.

Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Autonumber at end of paragraph

[Graeme R Forbes]

>Does anyone know of a way to get Frame to put the autonumber
>text where the setting for Position implies it will put it: right at the
>end of the paragraph -- in other words, immediately after the text I type?


A test of my own docs with autonumbers at the end of paragraphs 
suggests that neither alignment nor tab settings is the problem -- 
the autonumber goes to the far right in every case. However, there is 
a right indent marker whose position can be set in the Paragraph 
Designer or by dragging. If you drag it left the autonumber moves 
with it. But you'd have to do this manually every time.

Graeme Forbes

change view

[Graeme R Forbes]

I often hit Cmnd-Opt 6 for a thin space (instead of 7) and as a 
result change the view to View 6 (MacFM7). Esc-vcv brings up the View 
window, but there seems to be no keyboard command for switching the 
view from 6 back to 1. Anyone know such a thing?

Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

re: keep with next para (solved)

[Graeme R Forbes]

I knew there had to be a simple solution. You prevent a page break 
occurring at a soft return by putting a sufficiently large number (I 
used 4) in the Widow/Orphan control box on the Pagination page of the 
Para Designer. Thanks to Stuart Rogers for suggesting this.

Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

oldie (was: keep with next para)

[Graeme R Forbes]

Diane:

Thanks for the suggestion about using the reference page -- hadn't 
thought of that, I'll see if I can make it work.


Um, just an FYI, Graeme has been on this list for at least 5 years that I
know of.

This made me wonder. I find in my archives a message dated 10/28/93 
that referred to my previous postings complaining about FM's footnote 
handling and the failure to fix the problem in FM4. I wish I could 
see the funny sode of this.

Graeme
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

oldie (was: keep with next para)

[Graeme R Forbes]

Diane:

Thanks for the suggestion about using the reference page -- hadn't 
thought of that, I'll see if I can make it work.


>Um, just an FYI, Graeme has been on this list for at least 5 years that I
>know of.

This made me wonder. I find in my archives a message dated 10/28/93 
that referred to my previous postings complaining about FM's footnote 
handling and the failure to fix the problem in FM4. I wish I could 
see the funny sode of this.

Graeme

keep with next para

[Graeme R Forbes]

I have a proof consisting in a sequence of lines across a page, each 
a paragraph, and  each line separated from the next by a shallow 
anchored frame that contains a separator line. Each line/para is set 
to keep with the next one since the whole proof must display on the 
same page. However, in order to get one of the lines to fit across 
the page, I had to use a soft return, and FM allows the proof to 
break across the page at the soft return. Is there some way of 
preventing this while retaining the soft return, or will I have to 
use two paragraphs?

Thanks
Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

keep with next para

[Graeme R Forbes]

I have a proof consisting in a sequence of lines across a page, each 
a paragraph, and  each line separated from the next by a shallow 
anchored frame that contains a separator line. Each line/para is set 
to keep with the next one since the whole proof must display on the 
same page. However, in order to get one of the lines to fit across 
the page, I had to use a soft return, and FM allows the proof to 
break across the page at the soft return. Is there some way of 
preventing this while retaining the soft return, or will I have to 
use two paragraphs?

Thanks
Graeme Forbes

Re: footnote problem

[Graeme R Forbes]

Tina wrote:

If I take out
the now disappeared long footnote (by deleting the footnote reference in the
text), all the other footnotes go back where they belong

Are you sure about this? If there are lots of long notes in the doc 
it's very likely that FM has pushed some of them in their entirety 
onto the following page. FrameMaker can't split long notes across 
pages correctly. Useless behavior which, as Rick said, has been with 
us since FM 4 (FM 3 in my experience, and no doubt since FM 1 -- the 
footnote facility was programmed to do exactly what it does, by 
people who didn't understand how footnotes are supposed to behave). 
So you have to break them manually, using text boxes inside anchored 
frames for the part of the note that won't fit on the page with the 
reference number in the main text. Or else make them all endnotes by 
the ugly method described in the user manual, which I once automated 
in Applescript. But endnotes are so reader-hostile that it's worth 
slogging thro' the manual process.


Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

footnote problem

[Graeme R Forbes]

Tina wrote:

"If I take out
the now disappeared long footnote (by deleting the footnote reference in the
text), all the other footnotes go back where they belong"

Are you sure about this? If there are lots of long notes in the doc 
it's very likely that FM has pushed some of them in their entirety 
onto the following page. FrameMaker can't split long notes across 
pages correctly. Useless behavior which, as Rick said, has been with 
us since FM 4 (FM 3 in my experience, and no doubt since FM 1 -- the 
footnote facility was programmed to do exactly what it does, by 
people who didn't understand how footnotes are supposed to behave). 
So you have to break them manually, using text boxes inside anchored 
frames for the part of the note that won't fit on the page with the 
reference number in the main text. Or else make them all endnotes by 
the ugly method described in the user manual, which I once automated 
in Applescript. But endnotes are so reader-hostile that it's worth 
slogging thro' the manual process.

Graeme Forbes

Re: Help with footnote numbers

[Graeme R Forbes]

Tina Ricks wrote:

I've got the footnote body set to 10 points (Format  Document  Footnote
Properties). Unfortunately, this means (I think) that the footnote reference
(in the main text) is also 10 point superscript. 

No, the reference numeral's attributes in the main text are 
controlled by the default font settings of the paragraph in the main 
text. Change the default font to a dingbat font and you'll see what I 
mean -- it's independent of what you choose for the text of the 
footnote


So far as I know -- I'd love to learn I'm wrong -- the only way to 
change the number's attributes is to change the default font 
attributes in the Para Designer. In your case, set the default para 
fontsize to 9 points, apply, and the footnote reference number will 
shrink too.


But, you say, I don't want the regular text of the body paragraph to 
be 9 points. Solution: override.


I did this with a book I prepared proofs of a couple of years ago. I 
wanted old-style figures for the footnote reference numbers in the 
main text and at the start of the footnote. So I made an Expert 
variant format for every type of paragraph in the main text that 
could have a footnote number in it, and made Kepler Expert the 
default for the footnote text paragraph. Then I created two formats 
for overriding the unwanted Expert (i.e., all characters except the 
reference numbers), one to use in footnotes and one to use in body 
text.


This is not as painful as it sounds, unless you're changing a 
paragraph that's already been done in the old format, and it already 
contains a variety of Character Format overrides, as mine often did 
(math symbolism). Applying the format to change all the text in 
Expert (small caps for letters) back to the standard one overrides 
those other overrides if you apply it to all the paratext -- so 
either you do that, then go back and restore the original overrides, 
or else you apply the regular text override to segments between 
original character overrides. It's a whole lot better if you can 
anticipate in advance if your para is going to have a footnote in it, 
set the variant format, type space at the end, then start typing 
ahead of the space with the special override applied. But a lot of 
the time you can't anticipate this.


For at least 14 years people have been asking the owners of 
FrameMaker to fix the many problems with the footnoting facility, 
some of which require workarounds even uglier than the above. Don't 
hold your breath.


Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Help with footnote numbers

[Graeme R Forbes]

Tina Ricks wrote:

"I've got the footnote body set to 10 points (Format > Document > Footnote
Properties). Unfortunately, this means (I think) that the footnote reference
(in the main text) is also 10 point superscript. "

No, the reference numeral's attributes in the main text are 
controlled by the default font settings of the paragraph in the main 
text. Change the default font to a dingbat font and you'll see what I 
mean -- it's independent of what you choose for the text of the 
footnote

So far as I know -- I'd love to learn I'm wrong -- the only way to 
change the number's attributes is to change the default font 
attributes in the Para Designer. In your case, set the default para 
fontsize to 9 points, apply, and the footnote reference number will 
shrink too.

But, you say, I don't want the regular text of the body paragraph to 
be 9 points. Solution: override.

I did this with a book I prepared proofs of a couple of years ago. I 
wanted old-style figures for the footnote reference numbers in the 
main text and at the start of the footnote. So I made an "Expert 
variant" format for every type of paragraph in the main text that 
could have a footnote number in it, and made Kepler Expert the 
default for the footnote text paragraph. Then I created two formats 
for overriding the unwanted Expert (i.e., all characters except the 
reference numbers), one to use in footnotes and one to use in body 
text.

This is not as painful as it sounds, unless you're changing a 
paragraph that's already been done in the old format, and it already 
contains a variety of Character Format overrides, as mine often did 
(math symbolism). Applying the format to change all the text in 
Expert (small caps for letters) back to the standard one overrides 
those other overrides if you apply it to all the paratext -- so 
either you do that, then go back and restore the original overrides, 
or else you apply the "regular text" override to segments between 
original character overrides. It's a whole lot better if you can 
anticipate in advance if your para is going to have a footnote in it, 
set the variant format, type space at the end, then start typing 
ahead of the space with the special override applied. But a lot of 
the time you can't anticipate this.

For at least 14 years people have been asking the owners of 
FrameMaker to fix the many problems with the footnoting facility, 
some of which require workarounds even uglier than the above. Don't 
hold your breath.

Graeme Forbes

lest we forget

[Graeme R Forbes]

It seems that our history goes back further than you thought. From 
David Lyons' coffee-table book Scotland, p. 184, reproduced as 
printed, but for the elisions:


...the event which most shaped Highlanders were the Highland 
Clearances, which started in the late 18th and continued into the 
early 19th century...this was when ambitious landowners cleared the 
land of people in favor of sheep farming...the upshot was that 
thousands of poor framers...were thrown off their ancestral lands or 
out of their townships to fend for themselves with little or no 
resources to help them.


Tout ca change, if you're on a Mac.

Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

lest we forget

[Graeme R Forbes]

It seems that our history goes back further than you thought. From 
David Lyons' coffee-table book "Scotland", p. 184, reproduced as 
printed, but for the elisions:

...the event which most shaped Highlanders were the Highland 
Clearances, which started in the late 18th and continued into the 
early 19th century...this was when ambitious landowners cleared the 
land of people in favor of sheep farming...the upshot was that 
thousands of poor framers...were thrown off their ancestral lands or 
out of their townships to fend for themselves with little or no 
resources to help them.

Tout ca change, if you're on a Mac.

Graeme Forbes

Virtual PC

[Graeme R Forbes]

One of the things I dislike about Virtual PC (7.0.3) is that I can't 
see any of the programs I installed using it. I've got WindowsXP, 
FrameMaker 7.1 and Adobe Reader for Windows somewhere on my Mac, but 
apparently hidden. Anyone know where they are? Mac OSX Panther.


Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Virtual PC

[Graeme R Forbes]

One of the things I dislike about Virtual PC (7.0.3) is that I can't 
see any of the programs I installed using it. I've got WindowsXP, 
FrameMaker 7.1 and Adobe Reader for Windows somewhere on my Mac, but 
apparently hidden. Anyone know where they are? Mac OSX Panther.

Graeme Forbes

right to left languages

[Graeme R Forbes]

Peter Courlis asked

Is there a S/W application or DTP S/W that is used for
Arabic, Farsi (left to right) languages in popular use, today?

Dov replied:
Yes, Microsoft Word (Windows only) provides this support.
InDesign ME offers this support (both platforms); maybe future
versions of InDesign might also natively support right-to-left


I think it used to be the case on the Mac that right to left language 
docs were mainly created in Nisus (http://nisus.com/). The OSX 
upgrade of Nisus still does it, but you might want to enter Hebrew 
in the user forums search and read some of the posts. The new kid on 
the block is a word processor called Mellel 
(http://www.redlers.com/index.html) which looks like it would be well 
worth investigating. In fact, it may even be a plausible replacement 
for FrameMaker for (English) technical writing on the Mac.


Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

right to left languages

[Graeme R Forbes]

Peter Courlis asked

"Is there a S/W application or DTP S/W that is used for
Arabic, Farsi (left to right) languages in popular use, today?"

Dov replied:
"Yes, Microsoft Word (Windows only) provides this support.
InDesign ME offers this support (both platforms); maybe future
versions of InDesign might also natively support right-to-left"


I think it used to be the case on the Mac that right to left language 
docs were mainly created in Nisus (http://nisus.com/). The OSX 
upgrade of Nisus still does it, but you might want to enter "Hebrew" 
in the user forums search and read some of the posts. The new kid on 
the block is a word processor called Mellel 
(http://www.redlers.com/index.html) which looks like it would be well 
worth investigating. In fact, it may even be a plausible replacement 
for FrameMaker for (English) technical writing on the Mac.

Graeme Forbes

Martha Jane Davidson, 1956-2007

[Graeme R Forbes]

Dear Mr. Davidson:

Please accept my sympathy, and also my thanks for taking the time to 
inform us during this exceptionally difficult time for you.

In 1995 the Framers List lost another frequent contributor, Carol 
Odlum, to brain cancer. Carol had been particularly helpful to me 
with a number of issues. No doubt there have been many others over 
the years whose disappearance from the list was due to an untimely 
death from cancer.

My own wife is a breast cancer survivor. Since her surgery in 1994, 
there have been a number of scares, but they all proved to be false 
alarms. Your message reminds me of how fortunate I am, and of how 
much I share the sentiments of your epitaph.

Sincerely,
Graeme Forbes



>--
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:18:11 -0700
>From: Wolf Davidson 
>Subject: OT:  Martha Jane Davidson, 1956-2007
>To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
>Message-ID: <4679FC03.4000500 at nemasys.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>Martha Jane Davidson (editrix at nemasys.com), a long-time contributor to
>the Framers list, died 12 June 2007 after a long struggle with breast
>cancer.
>
>Martha and I had 14 beautiful, wonderful years together.
>
>"I think not how sad it will be when you are gone, but rather how empty
>it would have been had you never come."
>[Author unknown]
>
>Wolf

Re: Martha Jane Davidson, 1956-2007

[Graeme R Forbes]

Dear Mr. Davidson:

Please accept my sympathy, and also my thanks for taking the time to 
inform us during this exceptionally difficult time for you.


In 1995 the Framers List lost another frequent contributor, Carol 
Odlum, to brain cancer. Carol had been particularly helpful to me 
with a number of issues. No doubt there have been many others over 
the years whose disappearance from the list was due to an untimely 
death from cancer.


My own wife is a breast cancer survivor. Since her surgery in 1994, 
there have been a number of scares, but they all proved to be false 
alarms. Your message reminds me of how fortunate I am, and of how 
much I share the sentiments of your epitaph.


Sincerely,
Graeme Forbes




--

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:18:11 -0700
From: Wolf Davidson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: OT:  Martha Jane Davidson, 1956-2007
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Martha Jane Davidson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]), a long-time contributor to
the Framers list, died 12 June 2007 after a long struggle with breast
cancer.

Martha and I had 14 beautiful, wonderful years together.

I think not how sad it will be when you are gone, but rather how empty
it would have been had you never come.
[Author unknown]

Wolf

___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

mailmerge

[Graeme R Forbes]

I use the mailmerge feature in Word to
import variables such as the date of the report, the name of the product
on which the report is based, the final score that the product achieved
and so on... Is this something that I can do better using Framemaker?

Mark, FM doesn't come with a mail merge facility, so your choices 
are, fake one with the program's other capacities, or find an add-on.


On the Mac, I've heard of people getting the effect of mailmerge 
using Publish and Subscribe. No doubt there's a Windows equivalent of 
this. But thinking about how you might do it suggests it would be a 
huge hassle.


An add-on would be a better way to go, perhaps. But the results of 
googling mail merge for FrameMaker are not reassuring. Taking 
values out of a document belonging to another application and pasting 
them into an FM doc in the right place is something that's not hard 
to script, tho'. If you don't want to try it yourself there are 
people on this list who sell such a service.


What you're talking about seems to be a kind of database publishing. 
You could check Adobe's site for this -- I believe there are some 
heavyweight apps which do this working with FM. But they might well 
be overkill for your needs.


Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

mailmerge

[Graeme R Forbes]

"I use the mailmerge feature in Word to
import variables such as the date of the report, the name of the product
on which the report is based, the final score that the product achieved
and so on... Is this something that I can do better using Framemaker?"

Mark, FM doesn't come with a mail merge facility, so your choices 
are, fake one with the program's other capacities, or find an add-on.

On the Mac, I've heard of people getting the effect of mailmerge 
using Publish and Subscribe. No doubt there's a Windows equivalent of 
this. But thinking about how you might do it suggests it would be a 
huge hassle.

An add-on would be a better way to go, perhaps. But the results of 
googling "mail merge for FrameMaker" are not reassuring. Taking 
values out of a document belonging to another application and pasting 
them into an FM doc in the right place is something that's not hard 
to script, tho'. If you don't want to try it yourself there are 
people on this list who sell such a service.

What you're talking about seems to be a kind of database publishing. 
You could check Adobe's site for this -- I believe there are some 
heavyweight apps which do this working with FM. But they might well 
be overkill for your needs.

Graeme Forbes

Adobe CEO interview

[Graeme R Forbes]

From the interview 
(http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=1741) with 
the Adobe CEO:


*

We will continue to extend the capabilities of the core product in 
each of those segments with some of the features that are available 
in the other products. But, yes, it is our goal to continue to make 
sure that we don't leave any customer behind. For a number of 
customers who have adopted a product like FrameMaker, we will 
continue to invest in it.


*

A number that's a log way short of 100%. But the middle sentence does 
show a sense of humor.


Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Adobe CEO interview

[Graeme R Forbes]

 From the interview 
(http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=1741) with 
the Adobe CEO:

*

We will continue to extend the capabilities of the core product in 
each of those segments with some of the features that are available 
in the other products. But, yes, it is our goal to continue to make 
sure that we don't leave any customer behind. For a number of 
customers who have adopted a product like FrameMaker, we will 
continue to invest in it.

*

A number that's a log way short of 100%. But the middle sentence does 
show a sense of humor.

Graeme Forbes

FrameMaker and InDesign

[Graeme R Forbes]

It looks like the new version of ID in CS3 has got some better 
long-doc handling tools. Or so Adobe says. I would still rather 
switch from FM to ID than run Windows FM under simulation - Parallels 
or whatever. One foresees just too many unforeseeable problems.


So: does anyone know what the current state of development of the 
MIF-ID filter that DTP Tools (?) is working on is?


Reading the ID forum at Adobe suggests that the new version still 
doesn't have x-refs. Anyone know if that's right?


There's also a claim to do footnotes. Anyone know if ID does 
footnotes *correctly*: do they break across pages like real footnotes 
are supposed to, or does the entire note jump to the next page if it 
doesn't all fit on the current page, a la FM?


Thanks,
Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

FrameMaker and InDesign

[Graeme R Forbes]

It looks like the new version of ID in CS3 has got some better 
long-doc handling tools. Or so Adobe says. I would still rather 
switch from FM to ID than run Windows FM under simulation - Parallels 
or whatever. One foresees just too many unforeseeable problems.

So: does anyone know what the current state of development of the 
MIF->ID filter that DTP Tools (?) is working on is?

Reading the ID forum at Adobe suggests that the new version still 
doesn't have x-refs. Anyone know if that's right?

There's also a claim to do footnotes. Anyone know if ID does 
footnotes *correctly*: do they break across pages like real footnotes 
are supposed to, or does the entire note jump to the next page if it 
doesn't all fit on the current page, a la FM?

Thanks,
Graeme Forbes

Re: Footnote placement improvement for practical and aesthetic reasons

[Graeme R Forbes]

Hedley's suggestions for improving Frame's footnote handling are all 
very good ones, but the chances of them being implemented are nil, I 
think. Some of us have been complaining about FM's note handling for, 
oh, 14 years, and I have quite a collection of nice messages spanning 
that period from Frame Tech and Adobe, to the effect that yes, this 
is a popular request, and will certainly be considered.


It's been explained to me that getting footnotes to break properly 
across pages would be such a massive project involving such huge 
amounts of code re-writing that the entire population of India would 
need to get degrees in computer science. We are in the same ballpark 
as putting a man or woman on Mars, or curing the common cold, or 
building a working fusion reactor, or getting FM to run natively in 
OSX.


For documents with relatively few footnotes, there's a manual 
workaround involving anchored frames and trial-and-error cutting and 
pasting. I have written up a description of it -- ask and ye shall be 
given. But Rob said



My latest document is 5,000 pages long [...]


Ohmigod!


Graeme
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

RE: Frame's future @ Mac/UNIX

[Graeme R Forbes]

Dov said:

Although MacOS X has UNIX underpinnings, the difficult
stuff relating to user interfaces, font access, output,
etc. is all exclusive to MacOS X

In other words, the difficult stuff has all been dealt with for 
GoLive, Illustrator, InDesign, etc. etc. So Adobe employs people who 
know how to get a document to print on a Mac, even under the 
formidably taxing OSX. It just chose not to put them to work on FM, 
because there was little demand for its previous, non-OSX, 
new-feature-thin FM upgrades. Terrific.


Graeme Forbes
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Frame's future @ Mac/UNIX

[Graeme R Forbes]

Dov said:

"Although MacOS X has UNIX underpinnings, the difficult
stuff relating to user interfaces, font access, output,
etc. is all exclusive to MacOS X"

In other words, the difficult stuff has all been dealt with for 
GoLive, Illustrator, InDesign, etc. etc. So Adobe employs people who 
know how to get a document to print on a Mac, even under the 
formidably taxing OSX. It just chose not to put them to work on FM, 
because there was little demand for its previous, non-OSX, 
new-feature-thin FM upgrades. Terrific.

Graeme Forbes