Re: Hardware migration and upgrade from 6.3 to 8.0 advice

[Frank Wissmann]

Achilleas Mantzios schrieb:

Hi!


Hello,

i am facing this situation, where i need to upgrade from my 6.3 i386
system, used as my main workstation, to a new hardware based on amd64
(phenom II x4).


Well, you know that i386 is Intel, do you? It might work just moving the 
old kernel to a 64-bit system but I have no experience with it.




My current system is alive since 2005, so is full of code, scripts,
configurations,look&feel,ssh keys etc.. that i would like to keep
handy in my new system.

Also, currently i run gmirror, i am mentioning it, in case it affects something.



Since 2005, dealing with programming/support/etc.. i haven't done any
upgrade task in FreeBSD, so i dont feel that confident in this regard.



I could:

a) install a brand new 8.0-RELEASE in the new hardware and then

 a1) just mount the old disks to the new system or

 a2) migrate /home user data directly to the new home dirs

b) migrate all current data to the new hardware, kernel/system
included, and then try to upgrade to 8.0 (by sysinstall or
makeworld/makekernel)


Item b) is not recommended. There are so many changes AFAIK that it is 
no clear update. You might do so but then you should update the 
following way from 6.3 - 7.0 - 7.1 - 7.2 - 8.0 as was recommended on 
this list earlier (search the archives, please, for further details if 
you choose this way).
For me, a clean install of 8.0 and a move from the old data to the fresh 
install is better. Use a2) !


Greetings Frank
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Hardware migration and upgrade from 6.3 to 8.0 advice

[Achilleas Mantzios]

Hello,

i am facing this situation, where i need to upgrade from my 6.3 i386
system, used as my main workstation, to a new hardware based on amd64
(phenom II x4).



My current system is alive since 2005, so is full of code, scripts,
configurations,look&feel,ssh keys etc.. that i would like to keep
handy in my new system.

Also, currently i run gmirror, i am mentioning it, in case it affects something.



Since 2005, dealing with programming/support/etc.. i haven't done any
upgrade task in FreeBSD, so i dont feel that confident in this regard.



I could:

a) install a brand new 8.0-RELEASE in the new hardware and then

 a1) just mount the old disks to the new system or

 a2) migrate /home user data directly to the new home dirs

b) migrate all current data to the new hardware, kernel/system
included, and then try to upgrade to 8.0 (by sysinstall or
makeworld/makekernel)



So, its a trade-off between pain, correctness, effectiveness, and ease of use.



What would you guys recommend? Which way to go? Any other options?

Thanx in advance!

Please include me in your CC, as i am not subscribed to the list.

Achilleas Mantzios


  
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Re: ZFS Snaphost & Hardware RAID

[krad]

2009/11/16 Johan Hendriks 

>
> >Hello all.
>
> >I plan to set up backup server with 24x1Tb HDD and use ZFS with
> >FreeBSD-8.0 on it.
> >I prefare to have "ZFS only" system but as I see there is no any easy
> >way to do so.
>
> >I would like to use ZFS snapshots - is I undestand right what snaphots
> >work OVER ZFS raidz\storage? So I can`t use hardware RAID and must make
>
> >a raidz?
>
> >I would love to head any other suggestion about using FreeBSD with ZFS
> >as backup server.
>
> >--
> >Best regards,
> >Proskurin Kirill
>
> An option is reading this thread on the FreeBSD forums.
>
> http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?t=3689
>
> regards,
> Johan Hendriks
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zfs works fine with hardware raid controllers, it just means the disk setup
can be a little more complicated, and needs to be thought about a bit more.
Personally I would JBOD all the drives apart from the system drives which I
would create a mirror for. With this setup you utilize all the best features
of the hardware and software.

System zpool with hardware mirror means you are less likely to get issues
booting as bios will see the virtal device exported by the raid card and
wont have to alter the boot drive if one of your system drives dies. Just
give the system zpool on dev

backup zpool: raidz2 ( group into vdevs of 8 drives ). If you export the
drives from the hardware raid as a jbod and get zfs to do all the raid
stuff, you will enjoy more funky raid configs, and if you have to rebuild a
drive it will odds on be much quicker as you only have to do allocated
blocks as opposed to full block rebuild of the entire drive as the raid
controller would do. Also using the raid card rather than straight scsi you
might get benefits from the raid cache, if its cpu is quick enough.
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RE: ZFS Snaphost & Hardware RAID

[Johan Hendriks]

>Hello all.

>I plan to set up backup server with 24x1Tb HDD and use ZFS with 
>FreeBSD-8.0 on it.
>I prefare to have "ZFS only" system but as I see there is no any easy 
>way to do so.

>I would like to use ZFS snapshots - is I undestand right what snaphots 
>work OVER ZFS raidz\storage? So I can`t use hardware RAID and must make

>a raidz?

>I would love to head any other suggestion about using FreeBSD with ZFS 
>as backup server.

>-- 
>Best regards,
>Proskurin Kirill

An option is reading this thread on the FreeBSD forums.

http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?t=3689

regards,
Johan Hendriks
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ZFS Snaphost & Hardware RAID

[Proskurin Kirill]

Hello all.

I plan to set up backup server with 24x1Tb HDD and use ZFS with 
FreeBSD-8.0 on it.
I prefare to have "ZFS only" system but as I see there is no any easy 
way to do so.


I would like to use ZFS snapshots - is I undestand right what snaphots 
work OVER ZFS raidz\storage? So I can`t use hardware RAID and must make 
a raidz?


I would love to head any other suggestion about using FreeBSD with ZFS 
as backup server.


--
Best regards,
Proskurin Kirill
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Re: IBM Thinkpad 755C and FreeBSD's minimal hardware requirements - still usable?

[Polytropon]

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 13:12:19 +0200, herbert langhans  
wrote:
> Not a long time ago I got an old Thinkpad 600. With 300MHz and 165MB Ram.
> 
> Also the same challenge - small and fast ports for daily work.
> I run X11 with fluxbox (installed without! hal support). 

Of course. Fluxbox is a very lightweight and still appealing
window manager with very usable keyboard functionality. Other
solutions that I would have considered lightweight (but I have
to re-check the facts of today) include WindowMaker and XFCE 3.



> Recommendable ports are: Opera (smaller then Firefox) [...]

Even on my "fast" machine the preferred browser.



> [...] vim (also gvim) is my text editor - it replaces word
> processing software.

That's what I mostly use LaTeX for.



> Centerim for instant messaging (instead of pidgin).

This seems to be something like CenterICQ (just judging by name).



> Generally all the motif-programs are small and fast.

I'm using things like xpdf (uses OpenMotif) whenever I can.



> Maybe you go for a bigger harddisk? Costs a few bucks and will
> have enough space for BSD 7.2 (what I use) and some of the ports?

I'm not sure if the system will accept it. Recently, I had to buy
a 20 GB disk for my Siemens-Fujitsu Travelmate, because it did not
accept the 40 GB disk I still had (extracted from a dead laptop).



> Compiling your own kernel and cleaning out the kernel source and
> the distfiles of the ports is also a good idea..

But I think it has to be done on a separate machine.

I would imagine that I can at least prepare the hard disk for the
Thinkpad in another machine (e. g. the S-F Travelmate I mentioned).
But I managed to get FreeBSD installed via parallel cable in the
past (plip).

I'm just curious if the audio capabilites of the Thinkpad can be
made working...



-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: IBM Thinkpad 755C and FreeBSD's minimal hardware requirements - still usable?

[herbert langhans]

Not a long time ago I got an old Thinkpad 600. With 300MHz and 165MB Ram.

Also the same challenge - small and fast ports for daily work. I run X11 with 
fluxbox (installed without! hal support). 

Recommendable ports are: Opera (smaller then Firefox) or even Elinks (there is 
a setting 'graphic mode'). Mutt for e-mails, vim (also gvim) is my text editor 
- it replaces word processing software. Centerim for instant messaging (instead 
of pidgin). Axyftp is a fast ftp-client, also for X11. Generally all the 
motif-programs are small and fast.

For a few bucks I got the PCMCIA-Card TP-Link TL-WN610G. It works perfect, but 
only without hal.

And my battery lasts easily over three hours, almost four with just a text 
editor running.

Maybe you go for a bigger harddisk? Costs a few bucks and will have enough 
space for BSD 7.2 (what I use) and some of the ports? Compiling your own kernel 
and cleaning out the kernel source and the distfiles of the ports is also a 
good idea..

Cheers
herb langhans
 
On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 06:47:27AM +0200, Polytropon wrote:
> Dear list,
> 
> I'm about to try something strange. Recently, I got back my
> IBM Thinkpad 755C. It's from ca. 1995, has a 486 processor
> at 75 MHz, 20 MB RAM and a 640x480x256 display. The hard disk
> is 330 MB, but I have a 500 MB disk that I want to use. Use
> for what? FreeBSD, of course.
> 
> Allthough this device is quite old, the battery lasts 3 hours.
> I'm not joking, I tried it.
> 
> The laptop contains two PCCARD (PCMCIA) slots for expansions.
> A floppy disk drive is built in, as well as audio (builtin
> microphone and speaker, connectors for line in and headphones).
> On the back, there are connectors for VGA, serial (9 pin),
> and parallel, as well as for some kind of docking station.
> There's no USB and no CD drive.
> 
> Here's my question:
> 
> Is it, under any circumstances, possible to run FreeBSD on this
> configuration in order to have a portable and lightweight (in
> regards of software) diagnostic computer?
> 
> I thought about putting in a PCCARD based NIC (I have a Realtek
> one that works well with FreeBSD), as well as a WLAN card.
> 
> On the software side I would think about CLI tools mostly, but
> it would be great to run X (even at this limited screen, but
> there's always the option of using a bigger virtual desktop).
> Programs should include a web browser, mail client, and finally
> a network traffic diagnostic tool, such as Wireshark (ex Ethereal).
> 
> I had FreeBSD 4 running on this device from floppy for testing
> purposes, so I know I have to pay attention to the fact that
> the keyboard needs to be flagged as XT (not AT) - very stange.
> I had FreeBSD 4 running on a 486/60 Toshiba T2130ct with 8 MB
> RAM in the past, but I'm using this one now for programming
> Motorola mobile radios. It's builtin trackpoint is not working
> anymore, but the Thinkpad's is in perfect condition, so I have
> a good pointing device. Furthermore, the Thinkpad's keyboard
> is excellent, compared to the Toshiba and to "modern" notebooks
> with their floppy-sloppy keys.
> 
> Is this imaginable at all?
> 
> Any ideas, comments or suggestions are appreciated.
> 
> 
> PS. Of course I would buy one of those modern "Netbooks" to
> have the same effect, but why buy when the stuff I have
> arund anywill will work, too? I know, I'm just plain mean,
> and I diskike the Netbook's nearly unusable keyboards as
> well as the absence of a proper pointing device (the ugly
> slimy fingerprint-glidepad is no solution).
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Polytropon
> Magdeburg, Germany
> Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
> Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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-- 
sprachtraining langhans
herbert langhans, warschau
http://www.langhans.com.pl
herbert dot raimund at gmx dot net
+0048 603 341 441

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IBM Thinkpad 755C and FreeBSD's minimal hardware requirements - still usable?

[Polytropon]

Dear list,

I'm about to try something strange. Recently, I got back my
IBM Thinkpad 755C. It's from ca. 1995, has a 486 processor
at 75 MHz, 20 MB RAM and a 640x480x256 display. The hard disk
is 330 MB, but I have a 500 MB disk that I want to use. Use
for what? FreeBSD, of course.

Allthough this device is quite old, the battery lasts 3 hours.
I'm not joking, I tried it.

The laptop contains two PCCARD (PCMCIA) slots for expansions.
A floppy disk drive is built in, as well as audio (builtin
microphone and speaker, connectors for line in and headphones).
On the back, there are connectors for VGA, serial (9 pin),
and parallel, as well as for some kind of docking station.
There's no USB and no CD drive.

Here's my question:

Is it, under any circumstances, possible to run FreeBSD on this
configuration in order to have a portable and lightweight (in
regards of software) diagnostic computer?

I thought about putting in a PCCARD based NIC (I have a Realtek
one that works well with FreeBSD), as well as a WLAN card.

On the software side I would think about CLI tools mostly, but
it would be great to run X (even at this limited screen, but
there's always the option of using a bigger virtual desktop).
Programs should include a web browser, mail client, and finally
a network traffic diagnostic tool, such as Wireshark (ex Ethereal).

I had FreeBSD 4 running on this device from floppy for testing
purposes, so I know I have to pay attention to the fact that
the keyboard needs to be flagged as XT (not AT) - very stange.
I had FreeBSD 4 running on a 486/60 Toshiba T2130ct with 8 MB
RAM in the past, but I'm using this one now for programming
Motorola mobile radios. It's builtin trackpoint is not working
anymore, but the Thinkpad's is in perfect condition, so I have
a good pointing device. Furthermore, the Thinkpad's keyboard
is excellent, compared to the Toshiba and to "modern" notebooks
with their floppy-sloppy keys.

Is this imaginable at all?

Any ideas, comments or suggestions are appreciated.


PS. Of course I would buy one of those modern "Netbooks" to
have the same effect, but why buy when the stuff I have
arund anywill will work, too? I know, I'm just plain mean,
and I diskike the Netbook's nearly unusable keyboards as
well as the absence of a proper pointing device (the ugly
slimy fingerprint-glidepad is no solution).



-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: FreeNAS file server...which hardware to choose?

[David Davis]

Hi Guys,

I just wanted to mention that George's changes should be incorporated 
into the official FreeNAS build of 0.7 (it's RC1 right now) when it 
comes out, so using our custom image should only be a temporary thing 
should you choose to go the A2000 route.


Regards, 


David Davis
Software Engineer
Logic Supply, Inc.
Direct Line: 802 861 7428
Office: 802 861 2300 ext. 428
david.da...@logicsupply.com
www.logicsupply.com



George Hartzell wrote:

Tim Judd writes:
 > On 7/19/09, Aleksandr Miroslav  wrote:
 > > On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Aleksandr Miroslav
 > >  wrote:
 > >> What kind of RAID chassis, computer system should I get for this setup?
 > >> Would a soekris be sufficient, or is that overkill?
 > >
 > > Or should I just buy a barebones headless desktop PC (Dell has them
 > > cheap now for $241) for this task?
 > 
 > I don't like OEMs.  I would rather build my own.
 > 
 > Recently well-reviewed Via ARTiGO A2000 is a 2 SATA drive enclosure.

 > You can install anything you want in it.  I don't think it has onboard
 > raid, but a software raid (in a lightly loaded NAS) should work pretty
 > well
 > 
 > Let me know what you choose.


I have an A2000 running -STABLE and another running a slightly hacked
version of FreeNAS.  All of my FreeNAS support hacks (and then some)
have been merged into the image available at:

  http://www.logicsupply.com/blog/2009/05/11/custom-a2000-freenas-image/

I don't have any connection with them except as a happy
camper/customer.

You'd need to hang the third drive off the USB connection, so it
wouldn't be a screamer, but it should work well.

Both systems are running the 1TB Western Digital green drives.
Otherwise they're plug and play.

g.
  

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Re: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?

[Tom Worster]

On 7/16/09 6:12 PM, "Maxim Khitrov"  wrote:

>> 
>> I'd love to hear about any test results you may get comparing software with
>> hardware raid.
> 
> I received the hardware yesterday. There was a last minute change due
> to cost. Instead of getting 4x 2TB drives I opted for 6x 1TB. This
> limits my future expansion a bit, but that may be a few years down the
> line. On the plus side, I can get the 4TB of RAID6 that I originally
> planned for and the performance should be better because of additional
> disks in the array.
> 
> Sometime next week I'll install FreeBSD 8 and will then be able to run
> a few benchmarks. After that I'll configure software RAID and repeat
> the process. Are there any specific tests that you guys would like me
> to run? Sequential read/write tests using dd are a given, beyond that
> I'm not familiar with any ports under benchmarks/, so if you know of
> anything good, tell me.

sorry, i can't help. i've never done any benchmarking.

if performance using zfs raid were good relative to using the dedicated raid
controller then the possibility of improving system availability by
eliminating that non-redundant sub-system might exist. unfortunately i don't
think the comparison makes sense, at least with sas, because all the
multi-port sas controller chips, iirc, are also raid controllers. 


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Re: FreeNAS file server...which hardware to choose?

[George Hartzell]

Tim Judd writes:
 > On 7/19/09, Aleksandr Miroslav  wrote:
 > > On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Aleksandr Miroslav
 > >  wrote:
 > >> What kind of RAID chassis, computer system should I get for this setup?
 > >> Would a soekris be sufficient, or is that overkill?
 > >
 > > Or should I just buy a barebones headless desktop PC (Dell has them
 > > cheap now for $241) for this task?
 > 
 > I don't like OEMs.  I would rather build my own.
 > 
 > Recently well-reviewed Via ARTiGO A2000 is a 2 SATA drive enclosure.
 > You can install anything you want in it.  I don't think it has onboard
 > raid, but a software raid (in a lightly loaded NAS) should work pretty
 > well
 > 
 > Let me know what you choose.

I have an A2000 running -STABLE and another running a slightly hacked
version of FreeNAS.  All of my FreeNAS support hacks (and then some)
have been merged into the image available at:

  http://www.logicsupply.com/blog/2009/05/11/custom-a2000-freenas-image/

I don't have any connection with them except as a happy
camper/customer.

You'd need to hang the third drive off the USB connection, so it
wouldn't be a screamer, but it should work well.

Both systems are running the 1TB Western Digital green drives.
Otherwise they're plug and play.

g.
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Re: FreeNAS file server...which hardware to choose?

[Steve Bertrand]

Steve Bertrand wrote:
> Aleksandr Miroslav wrote:
>> I would like to setup a home fileserver running FreeNAS (which itself runs
>> on FreeBSD 7.2). Can someone recommend hardware for this?
>>
>> I know I'd have to get 3 harddrives. Two will be at home running RAID1, and
>> the third will be mirrored about once per quarter and brought offsite.
> 
> Right off the bat, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

meh, I missed the entire "home fileserver"... when I flamed my last
post. My apologies. Hopefully it will still apply.

Steve


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Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

Re: FreeNAS file server...which hardware to choose?

[Steve Bertrand]

Aleksandr Miroslav wrote:
> I would like to setup a home fileserver running FreeNAS (which itself runs
> on FreeBSD 7.2). Can someone recommend hardware for this?
> 
> I know I'd have to get 3 harddrives. Two will be at home running RAID1, and
> the third will be mirrored about once per quarter and brought offsite.

Right off the bat, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

Technically:

Have at *least* four disks, in RAID 10 ( 10 as in 1+0, or bin(1010) );

As far as chassis, I prefer anything that says Intel on it. Your RAID
setup will be managed by FreeBSD anyway. I've found that FreeBSD
interacts well deeply with Intel-based hardware.

Politically:

Don't do 'once per quarter'.

It feels to me as though you are an outside contractor (forgive me if
i'm wrong).

Put a cheap box in that aggregates a daily rsync on a removable drive,
and have one of the staff take that drive home.

If that is not feasible, dump the changes over the Internet with rsync(1).

If both suggestions are not feasible, then you don't want them as your
client anyway, as they are too cheap to listen to reason.

Either way, for reliable consistency:

- use good hardware where the manufacturer has a long-standing
reputation for providing documentation to their hardware API (afaik,
Intel (smack me if I'm wrong))

- learn the difference between ``archive'' and ``backup''

- understand that the hardware is your weakest link... once you figure
out that your storage method is better than the storage mechanism, then
you won't ever have to ask this question again ;)

Steve


smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

Re: FreeNAS file server...which hardware to choose?

[Tim Judd]

On 7/19/09, Aleksandr Miroslav  wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Aleksandr Miroslav
>  wrote:
>> What kind of RAID chassis, computer system should I get for this setup?
>> Would a soekris be sufficient, or is that overkill?
>
> Or should I just buy a barebones headless desktop PC (Dell has them
> cheap now for $241) for this task?



I don't like OEMs.  I would rather build my own.

Recently well-reviewed Via ARTiGO A2000 is a 2 SATA drive enclosure.
You can install anything you want in it.  I don't think it has onboard
raid, but a software raid (in a lightly loaded NAS) should work pretty
well


Let me know what you choose.
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Re: FreeNAS file server...which hardware to choose?

[Aleksandr Miroslav]

On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Aleksandr Miroslav
 wrote:
> What kind of RAID chassis, computer system should I get for this setup? Would 
> a soekris be sufficient, or is that overkill?

Or should I just buy a barebones headless desktop PC (Dell has them
cheap now for $241) for this task?
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FreeNAS file server...which hardware to choose?

[Aleksandr Miroslav]

I would like to setup a home fileserver running FreeNAS (which itself runs
on FreeBSD 7.2). Can someone recommend hardware for this?

I know I'd have to get 3 harddrives. Two will be at home running RAID1, and
the third will be mirrored about once per quarter and brought offsite.

What kind of RAID chassis, computer system should I get for this setup?
Would a soekris be sufficient, or is that overkill?

Thanks in advance for your help/advice.
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Re: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?

[Maxim Khitrov]

On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Richard Mahlerwein wrote:
>> > Just as a question: how ARE you planning on backing
>> this beast up?  While I don't want to sound like a
>> worry-wort, I have had odd things happen at the worst of
>> times.  RAID cards fail, power supplies let out the magic
>> smoke, users delete items they really want back... *sigh*
>>
>> Rsync over ssh to another server. Most of the data stored
>> will never
>> change after the first upload. A daily rsync run will
>> transfer one or
>> two gigs at the most. History is not required for the same
>> reason;
>> this is an append-only storage for the most part. A backup
>> for the
>> previous day is all that is required, but I will keep a
>> weekly backup
>> as well until I start running out of space.
>>
>> > A bit of reading shows that ZFS, if it's stable
>> enough, has some really great features that would be nice on
>> such a large pile o' drives.
>> >
>> > See http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSQuickStartGuide
>> >
>> > I guess the last question I'll ask (as any more may
>> uncover my ignorance) is if you need to use hardware RAID at
>> all?  It seems both UFS2 and ZFS can do software RAID
>> which seems to be quite reasonable with respect to
>> performance and in many ways seems to be more robust since
>> it is a bit more portable (no specialized hardware).
>>
>> I've thought about this one a lot. In my case, the hard
>> drives are in
>> a separate enclosure from the server and the two had to be
>> connected
>> via SAS cables. The 9690SA-8E card was the best choice I
>> could find
>> for accessing an external SAS enclosure with support for 8
>> drives.
>>
>> I could configure it in JBOD mode and then use software to
>> create a
>> RAID array. In fact, I will likely do this to compare
>> performance of a
>> hardware vs. software RAID5 solution. The ZFS RAID-Z option
>> does not
>> appeal to me, because the read performance does not benefit
>> from
>> additional drives, and I don't think RAID6 is available in
>> software.
>> For those reasons I'm leaning toward a hardware
>> implementation.
>>
>> If I go the hardware route, I'll try to purchase a backup
>> controller
>> in a year or two. :)
>>
>> > There are others who may respond with better
>> information on that front.  I've been a strong
>> proponent of hardware RAID, but have recently begun to
>> realize many of the reasons for that are only of limited
>> validity now.
>>
>> Agreed, and many simple RAID setups (0, 1, 10) will give
>> you much
>> better performance in software. In my case, I have to have
>> some piece
>> of hardware just to get to the drives, and I'm guessing
>> that hardware
>> RAID5/6 will be faster than the closest software
>> equivalent. Maybe my
>> tests will convince me otherwise.
>>
>> - Max
>
> I'd love to hear about any test results you may get comparing software with 
> hardware raid.

I received the hardware yesterday. There was a last minute change due
to cost. Instead of getting 4x 2TB drives I opted for 6x 1TB. This
limits my future expansion a bit, but that may be a few years down the
line. On the plus side, I can get the 4TB of RAID6 that I originally
planned for and the performance should be better because of additional
disks in the array.

Sometime next week I'll install FreeBSD 8 and will then be able to run
a few benchmarks. After that I'll configure software RAID and repeat
the process. Are there any specific tests that you guys would like me
to run? Sequential read/write tests using dd are a given, beyond that
I'm not familiar with any ports under benchmarks/, so if you know of
anything good, tell me.

- Max
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Re: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?

[Richard Mahlerwein]

--- On Tue, 7/14/09, Matthew Seaman  wrote:

> From: Matthew Seaman 
> Subject: Re: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?
> To: mahle...@yahoo.com
> Cc: "Free BSD Questions list" 
> Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2009, 4:23 AM
> Richard Mahlerwein wrote:
> 
> > With 4 drives, you could get much, much higher
> performance out of
> > RAID10 (which is alternatively called RAID0+1 or
> RAID1+0 depending on
> > the manufacturer
> 
> Uh -- no.  RAID10 and RAID0+1 are superficially
> similar but quite different
> things.  The main differentiator is resilience to disk
> failure. RAID10 takes
> the raw disks in pairs, creates a mirror across each pair,
> and then stripes
> across all the sets of mirrors.  RAID0+1 divides the
> raw disks into two equal
> sets, constructs stripes across each set of disks, and then
> mirrors the
> two stripes.
> 
> Read/Write performance is similar in either case: both
> perform well for the sort of small randomly distributed IO
> operations you'ld get when eg.
> running a RDBMS.  However, consider what happens if
> you get a disk failure.
> In the RAID10 case *one* of your N/2 mirrors is degraded
> but the other N-1
> drives in the array operate as normal.  In the RAID0+1
> case, one of the
> 2 stripes is immediately out of action and the whole IO
> load is carried by
> the N/2 drives in the other stripe.
> 
> Now consider what happens if a second drive should
> fail.  In the RAID10
> case, you're still up and running so long as the failed
> drive is one of
> the N-2 disks that aren't the mirror pair of the 1st failed
> drive.
> In the RAID0+1 case, you're out of action if the 2nd disk
> to fail is one
> of the N/2 drives from the working stripe.  Or in
> other words, if two
> random disks fail in a RAID10, chances are the RAID will
> still work.  If
> two arbitrarily selected disks fail in a RAID0+1 chances
> are basically
> even that the whole RAID is out of action[*].
> 
> I don't think I've ever seen a manufacturer say RAID1+0
> instead of RAID10,
> but I suppose all things are possible.  My impression
> was that the 0+1 terminology was specifically invented to
> make it more visually distinctive
> -- ie to prevent confusion between '01' and '10'.
> 
>     Cheers,
> 
>     Matthew
> 
> [*] Astute students of probability will point out that this
> really only
> makes a difference for N > 4, and for N=4 chances are
> evens either way that failure of two drives would take out
> the RAID.
> 
> -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil.     
>              7
> Priory Courtyard
>                
>                
>              
>    Flat 3
> PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey 
>    Ramsgate
>                
>                
>              
>    Kent, CT11 9PW
> 

--- On Tue, 7/14/09, Matthew Seaman  wrote:

> From: Matthew Seaman 
> Subject: Re: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?
> To: mahle...@yahoo.com
> Cc: "Free BSD Questions list" 
> Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2009, 4:23 AM
> Richard Mahlerwein wrote:
> 
> > With 4 drives, you could get much, much higher
> performance out of
> > RAID10 (which is alternatively called RAID0+1 or
> RAID1+0 depending on
> > the manufacturer
> 
> Uh -- no.  RAID10 and RAID0+1 are superficially
> similar but quite different
> things.  The main differentiator is resilience to disk
> failure. RAID10 takes
> the raw disks in pairs, creates a mirror across each pair,
> and then stripes
> across all the sets of mirrors.  RAID0+1 divides the
> raw disks into two equal
> sets, constructs stripes across each set of disks, and then
> mirrors the
> two stripes.
> 
> Read/Write performance is similar in either case: both
> perform well for the sort of small randomly distributed IO
> operations you'ld get when eg.
> running a RDBMS.  However, consider what happens if
> you get a disk failure.
> In the RAID10 case *one* of your N/2 mirrors is degraded
> but the other N-1
> drives in the array operate as normal.  In the RAID0+1
> case, one of the
> 2 stripes is immediately out of action and the whole IO
> load is carried by
> the N/2 drives in the other stripe.
> 
> Now consider what happens if a second drive should
> fail.  In the RAID10
> case, you're still up and running so long as the failed
> drive is one of
> the N-2 disks that aren't the mirror pair of the 1st failed
> drive.
> In the RAID0+1 case, you're out of action if the 2nd disk
> to fail is one
> of the N/2 drives from the working stripe.  Or in
> other words, if two
> random disks fail in a RAID10, c

Re: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?

[Adam Townsend]

>>> A bit of reading shows that ZFS, if it's stable enough, has some
>>> really great features that would be nice on such a large pile o'
>>> drives.
>>>
>>> See http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSQuickStartGuide
>>>
>>> I guess the last question I'll ask (as any more may uncover my
>>> ignorance) is if you need to use hardware RAID at all?  It seems
>>> both UFS2 and ZFS can do software RAID which seems to be quite
>>> reasonable with respect to performance and in many ways seems to be
>>> more robust since it is a bit more portable (no specialized
>>> hardware).
>>
>> I've thought about this one a lot. In my case, the hard drives are in
>> a separate enclosure from the server and the two had to be connected
>> via SAS cables. The 9690SA-8E card was the best choice I could find
>> for accessing an external SAS enclosure with support for 8 drives.
>>
>> I could configure it in JBOD mode and then use software to create a
>> RAID array. In fact, I will likely do this to compare performance of a
>> hardware vs. software RAID5 solution. The ZFS RAID-Z option does not
>> appeal to me, because the read performance does not benefit from
>> additional drives, and I don't think RAID6 is available in software.
>> For those reasons I'm leaning toward a hardware implementation.
>>
>
>
> Hi Maxim,
>
> RAID-Z2 is the RAID6 double parity option in ZFS.
>
>
> gr
> Arno
>
>
I'm planning on doing something like this once I get 2 more 1TB
drives.  I'm going to try out a zfs RAID-Z not RAID-Z2, but yeah.
I've been around openSolaris' docs on zfs & it seems to be really
robust, you can export it on one OS and import it on another (incase
your root dies, or you want to migrate your disks to another box), you
can take "snapshots" which are stored on the drive, but I'm sure you
could send those files somewhere to be backed up.  And if you have
really important files you can create multiple copies of them
automatically with ZFS.  If you set it up with multiple vdevs, you can
get a lot more speed out of disk I/O as well, because if you have like
2 raidz vdevs, it stripes them, so you can pull data faster from both.
 I can't remember if it was on this or another list, but there was a
great discussion about the performance abilities/issues of zfs & they
had some good points like not using more than 8 drives per vdev &
such. If you search this, the hardware list, or hackers list I'm sure it'll
pop up.

Try it out both ways and see which is best.  there are pro's & con's
to both, but it all depends on what you need for your solution.

Cheers,
Bucky

...whoops sent this as a reply to the digest w/o changing the name.  I hope
it finds the right person now.
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Re: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?

[Matthew Seaman]

Richard Mahlerwein wrote:


With 4 drives, you could get much, much higher performance out of
RAID10 (which is alternatively called RAID0+1 or RAID1+0 depending on
the manufacturer


Uh -- no.  RAID10 and RAID0+1 are superficially similar but quite different
things.  The main differentiator is resilience to disk failure. RAID10 takes
the raw disks in pairs, creates a mirror across each pair, and then stripes
across all the sets of mirrors.  RAID0+1 divides the raw disks into two equal
sets, constructs stripes across each set of disks, and then mirrors the
two stripes.

Read/Write performance is similar in either case: both perform well for 
the sort of small randomly distributed IO operations you'ld get when eg.

running a RDBMS.  However, consider what happens if you get a disk failure.
In the RAID10 case *one* of your N/2 mirrors is degraded but the other N-1
drives in the array operate as normal.  In the RAID0+1 case, one of the
2 stripes is immediately out of action and the whole IO load is carried by
the N/2 drives in the other stripe.

Now consider what happens if a second drive should fail.  In the RAID10
case, you're still up and running so long as the failed drive is one of
the N-2 disks that aren't the mirror pair of the 1st failed drive.
In the RAID0+1 case, you're out of action if the 2nd disk to fail is one
of the N/2 drives from the working stripe.  Or in other words, if two
random disks fail in a RAID10, chances are the RAID will still work.  If
two arbitrarily selected disks fail in a RAID0+1 chances are basically
even that the whole RAID is out of action[*].

I don't think I've ever seen a manufacturer say RAID1+0 instead of RAID10,
but I suppose all things are possible.  My impression was that the 0+1 
terminology was specifically invented to make it more visually distinctive

-- ie to prevent confusion between '01' and '10'.

Cheers,

Matthew

[*] Astute students of probability will point out that this really only
makes a difference for N > 4, and for N=4 chances are evens either way 
that failure of two drives would take out the RAID.


--
Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil.   7 Priory Courtyard
 Flat 3
PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate
 Kent, CT11 9PW



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?

[FBSD UG]

A bit of reading shows that ZFS, if it's stable enough, has some  
really great features that would be nice on such a large pile o'  
drives.


See http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSQuickStartGuide

I guess the last question I'll ask (as any more may uncover my  
ignorance) is if you need to use hardware RAID at all?  It seems  
both UFS2 and ZFS can do software RAID which seems to be quite  
reasonable with respect to performance and in many ways seems to be  
more robust since it is a bit more portable (no specialized  
hardware).


I've thought about this one a lot. In my case, the hard drives are in
a separate enclosure from the server and the two had to be connected
via SAS cables. The 9690SA-8E card was the best choice I could find
for accessing an external SAS enclosure with support for 8 drives.

I could configure it in JBOD mode and then use software to create a
RAID array. In fact, I will likely do this to compare performance of a
hardware vs. software RAID5 solution. The ZFS RAID-Z option does not
appeal to me, because the read performance does not benefit from
additional drives, and I don't think RAID6 is available in software.
For those reasons I'm leaning toward a hardware implementation.




Hi Maxim,

RAID-Z2 is the RAID6 double parity option in ZFS.


gr
Arno
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Re: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?

[Richard Mahlerwein]

--- On Mon, 7/13/09, Maxim Khitrov  wrote:

> From: Maxim Khitrov 
> Subject: Re: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?
> To: mahle...@yahoo.com
> Cc: "Free BSD Questions list" 
> Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 3:23 PM
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 2:13 PM,
> Richard Mahlerwein
> wrote:
> >
> > --- On Mon, 7/13/09, Maxim Khitrov 
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Maxim Khitrov 
> >> Subject: Re: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?
> >> To: mahle...@yahoo.com
> >> Cc: "Free BSD Questions list" 
> >> Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 2:02 PM
> >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 1:46 PM,
> >> Richard Mahlerwein
> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Your mileage may vary, but...
> >> >>
> >> >> I would investigate either using more
> spindles if
> >> you want
> >> >> to stick to RAID6, or perhaps using
> another RAID
> >> level if
> >> >> you will be with 4 drives for a while. 
> The
> >> reasoning
> >> >> is that there's an overhead with RAID 6 -
> parity
> >> blocks are
> >> >> written to 2 disks, so in a 4 drive
> combination
> >> you have 2
> >> >> drives with data and 2 with parity.
> >> >>
> >> >> With 4 drives, you could get much, much
> higher
> >> performance
> >> >> out of RAID10 (which is alternatively
> called
> >> RAID0+1 or
> >> >> RAID1+0 depending on the manufacturer and
> on how
> >> accurate
> >> >> they wish to be, and on how they
> actually
> >> implemented it,
> >> >> too). This would also mean 2 usable
> drives, as
> >> well, so
> >> >> you'd have the same space available in
> RAID10 as
> >> your
> >> >> proposed RAID6.
> >> >>
> >> >> I would confirm you can, on the fly,
> convert from
> >> RAID10 to
> >> >> RAID6 after you add more drives.  If you
> can not,
> >> then
> >> >> by all means stick with RAID6 now!
> >> >>
> >> >> With 4 1 TB drives (for simpler
> examples)
> >> >> RAID5 = 3 TB available, 1 TB worth used
> in
> >> "parity".
> >> >> Fast reads, slow writes.
> >> >> RAID6 = 2 TB available, 2 TB worth used
> in
> >> "parity".
> >> >> Moderately fast reads, slow writes.
> >> >> RAID10 = 2 TB available, 2TB in duplicate
> copies
> >> (easier
> >> >> work than parity calculations).  Very
> fast
> >> reads,
> >> >> moderately fast writes.
> >> >>
> >> >> When you switch to, say, 8 drives, the
> numbers
> >> start to
> >> >> change a bit.
> >> >> RAID5 = 7TB available, 1 lost.
> >> >> RAID6 = 6TB available, 2 lost.
> >> >> RAID10 = 4TB available, 4 lost.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Sorry, consider myself chastised for having
> missed the
> >> "Security is more important than performance" bit.
> I tend
> >> toward solutions that show the most value, and
> with 4
> >> drives, it seems that I'd stick with the same
> "data
> >> security" only pick up the free speed of RAID10.
>  Change
> >> when you get to 6 or more drives, if necessary.
> >> >
> >> > For data security, I can't answer for the
> UFS2 vs.
> >> ZFS.  For hardware setup, let me amend everything
> I said
> >> above with the following:
> >> >
> >> > Since you are seriously focusing on data
> integrity,
> >> ignore everything I said but make sure you have
> good
> >> backups!  :)
> >> >
> >> > Sorry,
> >> > -Rich
> >>
> >> No problem :) I've been doing some reading since I
> posted
> >> this
> >> question and it turns out that the controller will
> actually
> >> not allow
> >> me to create a RAID6 array using only 4 drives.
> 3ware
> >> followed the
> >> same reasoning as you; with 4 drives use RAID10.
> >>
> >> I know that you can migrate from one to the other
> when a
> >> 5th disk is
> >> added, but RAID10 can only handle 2 failed drives
> if they
> >> are from
> >> separate RAID1 groups. In this way, it is just
> slightly
> >> less resilient
> >

Re: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?

[Tom Worster]

On 7/13/09 3:23 PM, "Maxim Khitrov"  wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 2:13 PM, Richard Mahlerwein wrote:
>
>> I guess the last question I'll ask (as any more may uncover my ignorance) is
>> if you need to use hardware RAID at all?  It seems both UFS2 and ZFS can do
>> software RAID which seems to be quite reasonable with respect to performance
>> and in many ways seems to be more robust since it is a bit more portable (no
>> specialized hardware).
> 
> I've thought about this one a lot. In my case, the hard drives are in
> a separate enclosure from the server and the two had to be connected
> via SAS cables. The 9690SA-8E card was the best choice I could find
> for accessing an external SAS enclosure with support for 8 drives.
> 
> I could configure it in JBOD mode and then use software to create a
> RAID array. In fact, I will likely do this to compare performance of a
> hardware vs. software RAID5 solution.

if you do, please share any insights that come of it here.


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Re: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?

[Maxim Khitrov]

On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 2:13 PM, Richard Mahlerwein wrote:
>
> --- On Mon, 7/13/09, Maxim Khitrov  wrote:
>
>> From: Maxim Khitrov 
>> Subject: Re: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?
>> To: mahle...@yahoo.com
>> Cc: "Free BSD Questions list" 
>> Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 2:02 PM
>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 1:46 PM,
>> Richard Mahlerwein
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Your mileage may vary, but...
>> >>
>> >> I would investigate either using more spindles if
>> you want
>> >> to stick to RAID6, or perhaps using another RAID
>> level if
>> >> you will be with 4 drives for a while.  The
>> reasoning
>> >> is that there's an overhead with RAID 6 - parity
>> blocks are
>> >> written to 2 disks, so in a 4 drive combination
>> you have 2
>> >> drives with data and 2 with parity.
>> >>
>> >> With 4 drives, you could get much, much higher
>> performance
>> >> out of RAID10 (which is alternatively called
>> RAID0+1 or
>> >> RAID1+0 depending on the manufacturer and on how
>> accurate
>> >> they wish to be, and on how they actually
>> implemented it,
>> >> too). This would also mean 2 usable drives, as
>> well, so
>> >> you'd have the same space available in RAID10 as
>> your
>> >> proposed RAID6.
>> >>
>> >> I would confirm you can, on the fly, convert from
>> RAID10 to
>> >> RAID6 after you add more drives.  If you can not,
>> then
>> >> by all means stick with RAID6 now!
>> >>
>> >> With 4 1 TB drives (for simpler examples)
>> >> RAID5 = 3 TB available, 1 TB worth used in
>> "parity".
>> >> Fast reads, slow writes.
>> >> RAID6 = 2 TB available, 2 TB worth used in
>> "parity".
>> >> Moderately fast reads, slow writes.
>> >> RAID10 = 2 TB available, 2TB in duplicate copies
>> (easier
>> >> work than parity calculations).  Very fast
>> reads,
>> >> moderately fast writes.
>> >>
>> >> When you switch to, say, 8 drives, the numbers
>> start to
>> >> change a bit.
>> >> RAID5 = 7TB available, 1 lost.
>> >> RAID6 = 6TB available, 2 lost.
>> >> RAID10 = 4TB available, 4 lost.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Sorry, consider myself chastised for having missed the
>> "Security is more important than performance" bit. I tend
>> toward solutions that show the most value, and with 4
>> drives, it seems that I'd stick with the same "data
>> security" only pick up the free speed of RAID10.  Change
>> when you get to 6 or more drives, if necessary.
>> >
>> > For data security, I can't answer for the UFS2 vs.
>> ZFS.  For hardware setup, let me amend everything I said
>> above with the following:
>> >
>> > Since you are seriously focusing on data integrity,
>> ignore everything I said but make sure you have good
>> backups!  :)
>> >
>> > Sorry,
>> > -Rich
>>
>> No problem :) I've been doing some reading since I posted
>> this
>> question and it turns out that the controller will actually
>> not allow
>> me to create a RAID6 array using only 4 drives. 3ware
>> followed the
>> same reasoning as you; with 4 drives use RAID10.
>>
>> I know that you can migrate from one to the other when a
>> 5th disk is
>> added, but RAID10 can only handle 2 failed drives if they
>> are from
>> separate RAID1 groups. In this way, it is just slightly
>> less resilient
>> to failure than RAID6. With this new information, I think I
>> may as
>> well get one more 2TB drive and start with 6TB of RAID6
>> space. This
>> will be less of a headache later on.
>>
>> - Max
>
> Just as a question: how ARE you planning on backing this beast up?  While I 
> don't want to sound like a worry-wort, I have had odd things happen at the 
> worst of times.  RAID cards fail, power supplies let out the magic smoke, 
> users delete items they really want back... *sigh*

Rsync over ssh to another server. Most of the data stored will never
change after the first upload. A daily rsync run will transfer one or
two gigs at the most. History is not required for the same reason;
this is an append-only storage for the most part. A backup for the
previous day is all that is required, but I will keep a weekly backup
as well until I start running out of 

Re: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?

[Richard Mahlerwein]

--- On Mon, 7/13/09, Maxim Khitrov  wrote:

> From: Maxim Khitrov 
> Subject: Re: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?
> To: mahle...@yahoo.com
> Cc: "Free BSD Questions list" 
> Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 2:02 PM
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 1:46 PM,
> Richard Mahlerwein
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Your mileage may vary, but...
> >>
> >> I would investigate either using more spindles if
> you want
> >> to stick to RAID6, or perhaps using another RAID
> level if
> >> you will be with 4 drives for a while.  The
> reasoning
> >> is that there's an overhead with RAID 6 - parity
> blocks are
> >> written to 2 disks, so in a 4 drive combination
> you have 2
> >> drives with data and 2 with parity.
> >>
> >> With 4 drives, you could get much, much higher
> performance
> >> out of RAID10 (which is alternatively called
> RAID0+1 or
> >> RAID1+0 depending on the manufacturer and on how
> accurate
> >> they wish to be, and on how they actually
> implemented it,
> >> too). This would also mean 2 usable drives, as
> well, so
> >> you'd have the same space available in RAID10 as
> your
> >> proposed RAID6.
> >>
> >> I would confirm you can, on the fly, convert from
> RAID10 to
> >> RAID6 after you add more drives.  If you can not,
> then
> >> by all means stick with RAID6 now!
> >>
> >> With 4 1 TB drives (for simpler examples)
> >> RAID5 = 3 TB available, 1 TB worth used in
> "parity".
> >> Fast reads, slow writes.
> >> RAID6 = 2 TB available, 2 TB worth used in
> "parity".
> >> Moderately fast reads, slow writes.
> >> RAID10 = 2 TB available, 2TB in duplicate copies
> (easier
> >> work than parity calculations).  Very fast
> reads,
> >> moderately fast writes.
> >>
> >> When you switch to, say, 8 drives, the numbers
> start to
> >> change a bit.
> >> RAID5 = 7TB available, 1 lost.
> >> RAID6 = 6TB available, 2 lost.
> >> RAID10 = 4TB available, 4 lost.
> >>
> >
> > Sorry, consider myself chastised for having missed the
> "Security is more important than performance" bit. I tend
> toward solutions that show the most value, and with 4
> drives, it seems that I'd stick with the same "data
> security" only pick up the free speed of RAID10.  Change
> when you get to 6 or more drives, if necessary.
> >
> > For data security, I can't answer for the UFS2 vs.
> ZFS.  For hardware setup, let me amend everything I said
> above with the following:
> >
> > Since you are seriously focusing on data integrity,
> ignore everything I said but make sure you have good
> backups!  :)
> >
> > Sorry,
> > -Rich
> 
> No problem :) I've been doing some reading since I posted
> this
> question and it turns out that the controller will actually
> not allow
> me to create a RAID6 array using only 4 drives. 3ware
> followed the
> same reasoning as you; with 4 drives use RAID10.
> 
> I know that you can migrate from one to the other when a
> 5th disk is
> added, but RAID10 can only handle 2 failed drives if they
> are from
> separate RAID1 groups. In this way, it is just slightly
> less resilient
> to failure than RAID6. With this new information, I think I
> may as
> well get one more 2TB drive and start with 6TB of RAID6
> space. This
> will be less of a headache later on.
> 
> - Max

Just as a question: how ARE you planning on backing this beast up?  While I 
don't want to sound like a worry-wort, I have had odd things happen at the 
worst of times.  RAID cards fail, power supplies let out the magic smoke, users 
delete items they really want back... *sigh*

A bit of reading shows that ZFS, if it's stable enough, has some really great 
features that would be nice on such a large pile o' drives.  

See http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSQuickStartGuide

I guess the last question I'll ask (as any more may uncover my ignorance) is if 
you need to use hardware RAID at all?  It seems both UFS2 and ZFS can do 
software RAID which seems to be quite reasonable with respect to performance 
and in many ways seems to be more robust since it is a bit more portable (no 
specialized hardware).

There are others who may respond with better information on that front.  I've 
been a strong proponent of hardware RAID, but have recently begun to realize 
many of the reasons for that are only of limited validity now.

-Rich



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Re: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?

[Maxim Khitrov]

On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Richard Mahlerwein wrote:
>>
>> Your mileage may vary, but...
>>
>> I would investigate either using more spindles if you want
>> to stick to RAID6, or perhaps using another RAID level if
>> you will be with 4 drives for a while.  The reasoning
>> is that there's an overhead with RAID 6 - parity blocks are
>> written to 2 disks, so in a 4 drive combination you have 2
>> drives with data and 2 with parity.
>>
>> With 4 drives, you could get much, much higher performance
>> out of RAID10 (which is alternatively called RAID0+1 or
>> RAID1+0 depending on the manufacturer and on how accurate
>> they wish to be, and on how they actually implemented it,
>> too). This would also mean 2 usable drives, as well, so
>> you'd have the same space available in RAID10 as your
>> proposed RAID6.
>>
>> I would confirm you can, on the fly, convert from RAID10 to
>> RAID6 after you add more drives.  If you can not, then
>> by all means stick with RAID6 now!
>>
>> With 4 1 TB drives (for simpler examples)
>> RAID5 = 3 TB available, 1 TB worth used in "parity".
>> Fast reads, slow writes.
>> RAID6 = 2 TB available, 2 TB worth used in "parity".
>> Moderately fast reads, slow writes.
>> RAID10 = 2 TB available, 2TB in duplicate copies (easier
>> work than parity calculations).  Very fast reads,
>> moderately fast writes.
>>
>> When you switch to, say, 8 drives, the numbers start to
>> change a bit.
>> RAID5 = 7TB available, 1 lost.
>> RAID6 = 6TB available, 2 lost.
>> RAID10 = 4TB available, 4 lost.
>>
>
> Sorry, consider myself chastised for having missed the "Security is more 
> important than performance" bit. I tend toward solutions that show the most 
> value, and with 4 drives, it seems that I'd stick with the same "data 
> security" only pick up the free speed of RAID10.  Change when you get to 6 or 
> more drives, if necessary.
>
> For data security, I can't answer for the UFS2 vs. ZFS.  For hardware setup, 
> let me amend everything I said above with the following:
>
> Since you are seriously focusing on data integrity, ignore everything I said 
> but make sure you have good backups!  :)
>
> Sorry,
> -Rich

No problem :) I've been doing some reading since I posted this
question and it turns out that the controller will actually not allow
me to create a RAID6 array using only 4 drives. 3ware followed the
same reasoning as you; with 4 drives use RAID10.

I know that you can migrate from one to the other when a 5th disk is
added, but RAID10 can only handle 2 failed drives if they are from
separate RAID1 groups. In this way, it is just slightly less resilient
to failure than RAID6. With this new information, I think I may as
well get one more 2TB drive and start with 6TB of RAID6 space. This
will be less of a headache later on.

- Max
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Re: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?

[Richard Mahlerwein]

--- On Mon, 7/13/09, Richard Mahlerwein  wrote:

> From: Richard Mahlerwein 
> Subject: Re: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?
> To: "Free BSD Questions list" 
> Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 1:29 PM
> --- On Sun, 7/12/09, Maxim Khitrov
> 
> wrote:
> 
> > From: Maxim Khitrov 
> > Subject: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?
> > To: "Free BSD Questions list" 
> > Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 11:47 PM
> > Hello all,
> > 
> > I'm about to build a new file server using 3ware
> 9690SA-8E
> > controller
> > and 4x Western Digital RE4-GP 2TB drives in RAID6. It
> is
> > likely to
> > grow in the future up to 10TB. I may use FreeBSD 8 on
> this
> > one, since
> > the release will likely be made by the time this
> server
> > goes into
> > production. The question is a simple one - I have no
> > experience with
> > ZFS and so wanted to ask for recommendations of that
> versus
> > UFS2. How
> > stable is the implementation and does it offer any
> benefits
> > in my
> > setup (described below)?
> > 
> > All of the RAID6 space will only be used for file
> storage,
> > accessible
> > by network using NFS and SMB. It may be split into
> > separate
> > partitions, but most likely the entire array will be
> one
> > giant storage
> > area that is expanded every time another hard drive
> is
> > added. The OS
> > and all installed apps will be on a separate software
> RAID1
> > array.
> > 
> > Given that security is more important than
> performance,
> > what would be
> > your recommended setup and why?
> > 
> > - Max
> 
> Your mileage may vary, but...
> 
> I would investigate either using more spindles if you want
> to stick to RAID6, or perhaps using another RAID level if
> you will be with 4 drives for a while.  The reasoning
> is that there's an overhead with RAID 6 - parity blocks are
> written to 2 disks, so in a 4 drive combination you have 2
> drives with data and 2 with parity.  
> 
> With 4 drives, you could get much, much higher performance
> out of RAID10 (which is alternatively called RAID0+1 or
> RAID1+0 depending on the manufacturer and on how accurate
> they wish to be, and on how they actually implemented it,
> too). This would also mean 2 usable drives, as well, so
> you'd have the same space available in RAID10 as your
> proposed RAID6.  
> 
> I would confirm you can, on the fly, convert from RAID10 to
> RAID6 after you add more drives.  If you can not, then
> by all means stick with RAID6 now!
> 
> With 4 1 TB drives (for simpler examples)
> RAID5 = 3 TB available, 1 TB worth used in "parity". 
> Fast reads, slow writes. 
> RAID6 = 2 TB available, 2 TB worth used in "parity". 
> Moderately fast reads, slow writes.
> RAID10 = 2 TB available, 2TB in duplicate copies (easier
> work than parity calculations).  Very fast reads,
> moderately fast writes.
> 
> When you switch to, say, 8 drives, the numbers start to
> change a bit.
> RAID5 = 7TB available, 1 lost.
> RAID6 = 6TB available, 2 lost.
> RAID10 = 4TB available, 4 lost.
> 

Sorry, consider myself chastised for having missed the "Security is more 
important than performance" bit. I tend toward solutions that show the most 
value, and with 4 drives, it seems that I'd stick with the same "data security" 
only pick up the free speed of RAID10.  Change when you get to 6 or more 
drives, if necessary.

For data security, I can't answer for the UFS2 vs. ZFS.  For hardware setup, 
let me amend everything I said above with the following:

Since you are seriously focusing on data integrity, ignore everything I said 
but make sure you have good backups!  :)

Sorry, 
-Rich



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Re: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?

[Richard Mahlerwein]

--- On Sun, 7/12/09, Maxim Khitrov  wrote:

> From: Maxim Khitrov 
> Subject: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?
> To: "Free BSD Questions list" 
> Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 11:47 PM
> Hello all,
> 
> I'm about to build a new file server using 3ware 9690SA-8E
> controller
> and 4x Western Digital RE4-GP 2TB drives in RAID6. It is
> likely to
> grow in the future up to 10TB. I may use FreeBSD 8 on this
> one, since
> the release will likely be made by the time this server
> goes into
> production. The question is a simple one - I have no
> experience with
> ZFS and so wanted to ask for recommendations of that versus
> UFS2. How
> stable is the implementation and does it offer any benefits
> in my
> setup (described below)?
> 
> All of the RAID6 space will only be used for file storage,
> accessible
> by network using NFS and SMB. It may be split into
> separate
> partitions, but most likely the entire array will be one
> giant storage
> area that is expanded every time another hard drive is
> added. The OS
> and all installed apps will be on a separate software RAID1
> array.
> 
> Given that security is more important than performance,
> what would be
> your recommended setup and why?
> 
> - Max

Your mileage may vary, but...

I would investigate either using more spindles if you want to stick to RAID6, 
or perhaps using another RAID level if you will be with 4 drives for a while.  
The reasoning is that there's an overhead with RAID 6 - parity blocks are 
written to 2 disks, so in a 4 drive combination you have 2 drives with data and 
2 with parity.  

With 4 drives, you could get much, much higher performance out of RAID10 (which 
is alternatively called RAID0+1 or RAID1+0 depending on the manufacturer and on 
how accurate they wish to be, and on how they actually implemented it, too). 
This would also mean 2 usable drives, as well, so you'd have the same space 
available in RAID10 as your proposed RAID6.  

I would confirm you can, on the fly, convert from RAID10 to RAID6 after you add 
more drives.  If you can not, then by all means stick with RAID6 now!

With 4 1 TB drives (for simpler examples)
RAID5 = 3 TB available, 1 TB worth used in "parity".  Fast reads, slow writes. 
RAID6 = 2 TB available, 2 TB worth used in "parity".  Moderately fast reads, 
slow writes.
RAID10 = 2 TB available, 2TB in duplicate copies (easier work than parity 
calculations).  Very fast reads, moderately fast writes.

When you switch to, say, 8 drives, the numbers start to change a bit.
RAID5 = 7TB available, 1 lost.
RAID6 = 6TB available, 2 lost.
RAID10 = 4TB available, 4 lost.



  
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ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?

[Maxim Khitrov]

Hello all,

I'm about to build a new file server using 3ware 9690SA-8E controller
and 4x Western Digital RE4-GP 2TB drives in RAID6. It is likely to
grow in the future up to 10TB. I may use FreeBSD 8 on this one, since
the release will likely be made by the time this server goes into
production. The question is a simple one - I have no experience with
ZFS and so wanted to ask for recommendations of that versus UFS2. How
stable is the implementation and does it offer any benefits in my
setup (described below)?

All of the RAID6 space will only be used for file storage, accessible
by network using NFS and SMB. It may be split into separate
partitions, but most likely the entire array will be one giant storage
area that is expanded every time another hard drive is added. The OS
and all installed apps will be on a separate software RAID1 array.

Given that security is more important than performance, what would be
your recommended setup and why?

- Max
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Sua melhor opção em Hardware.

[Avitech Tecnologia em Informática]

 
   
 

Prezado(a),
   
 
   
 
   
 
   
Solicite um contato
 
Indique para um amigo
 
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remover seu endereço da nossa lista.

 

 
 
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Re: Certified Hardware

[Roland Smith]

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 03:18:33PM -0400, Thompson, Rhett wrote:

> Is it possible for you to provide us with an updated hardware certified
> vendor list for FreeBsd. 

There is no such thing, AFAIK. The volunteers who form the FreeBSD
project spend their time improving FreeBSD, not doing formal
certification tests. That should be the job of the vendor.

The hardware vendors list that you can find on the site
[http://www.freebsd.org/commercial/hardware.html] is driven by
submissions from the vendors.

>  We would like to know if FreeBSD is supported on HP Blades and which
> models, network cards, HBA cards for connecting to SAN's.

First, ask the vendors of the hardware in question. If they are
unwilling or unable to give an answer, would you want to buy their
stuff?

If you want information on particular models of hardware, search through
the archives of the freebsd-questions list. If problems exist with
particular models, that is where it will probably turn up first. If you
have specific questions, you can ask on the list. Or use zgrep to search
the manual pages in drivers category (/usr/share/man/man4).

If you want a particular piece of hardware supported, you could hire a
developer to do that for you. Maybe ask on the hackers@ list.

Roland
-- 
R.F.Smith   http://www.xs4all.nl/~rsmith/
[plain text _non-HTML_ PGP/GnuPG encrypted/signed email much appreciated]
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Re: Certified Hardware

[Glen Barber]

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:18 PM, Thompson,
Rhett wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Is it possible for you to provide us with an updated hardware certified
> vendor list for FreeBsd.   We would like to know if FreeBSD is supported
> on HP Blades and which models, network cards, HBA cards for connecting
> to SAN's.   Any help will be greatly appreciated.  We need this
> information as soon as possible.    The current supported hardware
> vendor list on the web site does not appear to be current and does not
> include many other vendors.   Looking forward to hearing from you.
>
>
>

http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/hardware.html

-- 
Glen Barber
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Certified Hardware

[Thompson, Rhett]

Hi, 

 

Is it possible for you to provide us with an updated hardware certified
vendor list for FreeBsd.   We would like to know if FreeBSD is supported
on HP Blades and which models, network cards, HBA cards for connecting
to SAN's.   Any help will be greatly appreciated.  We need this
information as soon as possible.The current supported hardware
vendor list on the web site does not appear to be current and does not
include many other vendors.   Looking forward to hearing from you.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Rhett Thompson

 

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Re: What server hardware are you buying from the big companies these days?

[Wojciech Puchar]

task that even Pentium 100 will do.


I'm hosting websites on 5-10 years old SUN hardware. V100/120 with ultrasparc II
400-650 Mhz. Just put in some new disks and memory, no sweat. They allmost


normal. 400MHz SUNs are available here for 100$ or less. they usually have 
quite a lot of RAM even 512MB, but in case i need more - can it be added 
with standard SDRAM DIMMs, or superexpensive SUN memory only?


how about disks? usually one don't need terabyte disk, and 18-36GB SCSI 
drives are really cheap used.


But do SUNs accept normal SCSI drives or SUN-only? ;)

What you say about reliability of SUN hardware - fully agree.



never break down. And I like the openboot and LOM facilities. A simple serial
connection is all you need.


which is really important, and all super-excellent-modern PCs don't have.
I have to put some display card just to be able to configure things.
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Re: What server hardware are you buying from the big companies these days?

[Ruben de Groot]

On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 08:43:08AM +0200, Wojciech Puchar typed:
> 
> Buy second hand branded hardware from ebay (allegro in poland). It's 
> usually hardware that was used in offices and replaced by more "modern" 
> ones. It's already tested!!!
> 
> You could get high-end PIII with 512MB RAM for $30 at most, the only thing 
> you may need to add is larger drives, but 20GB isn't uncommon. P4 with 1GB 
> RAM and 40GB drive is for 60-70$ here.
> 
> All this branded second-hand hardware have nice and small desktop cases, 
> are usually quite silent and just works out of the box.
> 
> For good software like FreeBSD, PIII/1000 is already lightning-fast.
> 
> And from what i read on that list, 90% of your servers run quite simple 
> task that even Pentium 100 will do.

I'm hosting websites on 5-10 years old SUN hardware. V100/120 with ultrasparc II
400-650 Mhz. Just put in some new disks and memory, no sweat. They allmost
never break down. And I like the openboot and LOM facilities. A simple serial
connection is all you need.
What do you use for remote management of those desktop cases?

Ruben

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Re: What server hardware are you buying from the big companies these days?

[Wojciech Puchar]

  We have three SuperMicro blade servers.  One's worked like a champ, and
  the other two died.  The vendor we used tanked, so no warranty support.

  I got two IBM X3400 boxes to replace the SuperMicros; the drives were
  OK, so I got empty enclosures plus some rails, stuffed the drives in, and
  installed FreeBSD-7.1.  My only problem so far has been a BIOS issue, but
  IBM site-support has been great.

--
from posts here about branded hardware including you, i see that i do 
right things.


i just buy parts and make computer from them, not only it's cheap, but 
it have similar reliability as expensive branded ones.


Usually DIY computers fail within a week or not at all, similar to branded 
ones.


My advice for anyone who needs new computer, but don't need 
super-ultra-high-end new core i7 or whatever.


Buy second hand branded hardware from ebay (allegro in poland). It's 
usually hardware that was used in offices and replaced by more "modern" 
ones. It's already tested!!!


You could get high-end PIII with 512MB RAM for $30 at most, the only thing 
you may need to add is larger drives, but 20GB isn't uncommon. P4 with 1GB 
RAM and 40GB drive is for 60-70$ here.


All this branded second-hand hardware have nice and small desktop cases, 
are usually quite silent and just works out of the box.


For good software like FreeBSD, PIII/1000 is already lightning-fast.

And from what i read on that list, 90% of your servers run quite simple 
task that even Pentium 100 will do.



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Re: What server hardware are you buying from the big companies these days?

[Karl Vogel]

>> On Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:56:35 -0600, 
>> ericr  said:

E> Has anyone bought servers from one of the big manufacturers lately and had
E> good luck with them?

   I've always had good luck with Dell, especially the GX-260s.  I've used
   them for file-servers handling over 100 Samba connections at a time, and
   (considering they're just workstations) they work fine.

E> We've used SuperMicro's in the past, and they've been wildly variable.
E> Some of them have run ok for years, some died within weeks, and kept dying
E> no matter what parts we put in.

   We have three SuperMicro blade servers.  One's worked like a champ, and
   the other two died.  The vendor we used tanked, so no warranty support.

   I got two IBM X3400 boxes to replace the SuperMicros; the drives were
   OK, so I got empty enclosures plus some rails, stuffed the drives in, and
   installed FreeBSD-7.1.  My only problem so far has been a BIOS issue, but
   IBM site-support has been great.

-- 
Karl Vogel  I don't speak for the USAF or my company

Golfer: "Do you think I can get there with a 5-iron?
 Caddy: "Eventually."
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Re: What server hardware are you buying from the big companies these days?

[John Almberg]

Hi,

I need to buy some new servers, and mgmt has decreed that we get  
them from
someplace which will provide service contracts with on-site h/w  
suppport,

which means HP, Dell, Sun, IBM, etc.


I have two Intel servers that I like a lot. I don't have on-site  
support, but it might be available from one of Intel's official  
distributors.


-- John

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Re: What server hardware are you buying from the big companies these days?

[Jerry McAllister]

On Mon, Jun 08, 2009 at 11:56:35AM -0600, ericr wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I need to buy some new servers, and mgmt has decreed that we get them from
> someplace which will provide service contracts with on-site h/w suppport,
> which means HP, Dell, Sun, IBM, etc.

Our group has a lot of Dells from Poweredge 650-s to 2950-s and
some other groups in our department also run 46xx and some other
things.   They have been successful and reliable.  We have also
run a few HP servers with FreeBSD with no major problems, though
one came with a DOA motherboard.  But they came out and replaced
it right away.

jerry


> 
> Has anyone bought servers from one of the big manufacturers lately and had
> good luck with them?  It seems hard to get them to tell you what controllers
> and chipsets they're using in servers, to compare against the supported
> hardware list.
> 
> What I'm looking for isn't all that exotic:
> 
> rack mountable
> RAID-5 controller
> 4-6 or more disks (hot swappable would be nice, but not mandatory)
> dual power supplies (hot swappable would be nice, but not mandatory)
> CDROM
> 2 ethernet ports
> some RAM
> a video card
> an Intel or AMD CPU - single, two CPU, or multicore doesn't really matter.
> 
> and the all-important onsite service.
> 
> These things need to be pretty reliable, both of the data centers they're
> going into are a couple  of hours from my house, so I don't want a dead
> power supply to take out the server.  We've used SuperMicro's in the past,
> and they've been wildly variable.  Some of them have run ok for years, some
> died within weeks, and kept dying no matter what parts we put in. (yes, I
> checked the power, it was clean.  My guess is just a bad run of
> motherboards).  I've got 3 servers that have never been able to stay up for
> more than a couple of days, we don't even use them.
> 
> Regardless, any one have suggestions on what current models of servers are
> out there that run?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> - ericr
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Re: What server hardware are you buying from the big companies these days?

[Tim Judd]

And I say you get what you pay for.  My organization uses Dell
exclusively and it's been a thorn in my side from day one.  The AC
power requirements (it seems) for Dells are about 3x as much as
Gateways (I know, Gateway doesn't provide servers).  The power draw
for the Dells don't seem to be any better for them, in fact, they seem
to run hotter.

iXsystems, the PC-BSD guys, build components and provide hardware
warranty like "the big companies".

I would pick IBM or iXsystems.  IBM's warranty policy is written out,
the IBMs have had more overall success than any other big company
brand, and we're talking the pioneers of the PCs..  "IBM or IBM
compatible".

IBMs are the highest priced units, but I've had zero problems with them.

I dream big, only because I can.

Good luck.

On 6/8/09, Frederique Rijsdijk  wrote:
> ericr wrote:
>> I need to buy some new servers, and mgmt has decreed that we get them from
>> someplace which will provide service contracts with on-site h/w suppport,
>> which means HP, Dell, Sun, IBM, etc.
>
> We use Dell almost exclusively. Although Dell doesn't officially support
> FreeBSD, Dell hardware is tier-1 for FreeBSD. I think their hardware is
> quite OK. The machines are built well. Haven't had too much to deal with
> their onsite service (which is a good sign), but the times that I did I
> think they handled it quite well, the parts were in house within 4 hours
> and in a case where a motherboard had to be replaced, a Dell technician
> was sent in as well and did his job fine.
>
> Dell's RAID controllers (Perc/5i and Perc/6i) work fine in BSD, and some
> tools are available although with Linux emulation which kind of sucks.
>
> Here's a sample dmesg of a 1950:
>
>> Copyright (c) 1992-2009 The FreeBSD Project.
>> Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994
>> The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved.
>> FreeBSD is a registered trademark of The FreeBSD Foundation.
>> FreeBSD 7.1-RELEASE-p4 #0: Fri Apr  3 10:28:13 CEST 2009
>> r...@hostname:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC
>> Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0
>> CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU5148  @ 2.33GHz (2327.52-MHz K8-class
>> CPU)
>>   Origin = "GenuineIntel"  Id = 0x6fb  Stepping = 11
>>
>> Features=0xbfebfbff
>>
>> Features2=0x4e3bd
>>   AMD Features=0x20100800
>>   AMD Features2=0x1
>>   Cores per package: 2
>> usable memory = 4276400128 (4078 MB)
>> avail memory  = 4114935808 (3924 MB)
>> ACPI APIC Table: 
>> FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor System Detected: 2 CPUs
>>  cpu0 (BSP): APIC ID:  0
>>  cpu1 (AP): APIC ID:  1
>> ioapic0: Changing APIC ID to 2
>> ioapic0  irqs 0-23 on motherboard
>> kbd1 at kbdmux0
>> ath_hal: 0.9.20.3 (AR5210, AR5211, AR5212, RF5111, RF5112, RF2413, RF5413)
>> acpi0:  on motherboard
>> acpi0: [ITHREAD]
>> acpi0: Power Button (fixed)
>> Timecounter "ACPI-fast" frequency 3579545 Hz quality 1000
>> acpi_timer0: <24-bit timer at 3.579545MHz> port 0x808-0x80b on acpi0
>> acpi_hpet0:  iomem 0xfed0-0xfed003ff on
>> acpi0
>> Timecounter "HPET" frequency 14318180 Hz quality 900
>> pcib0:  port 0xcf8-0xcff on acpi0
>> pci0:  on pcib0
>> pcib1:  at device 2.0 on pci0
>> pci4:  on pcib1
>> pcib2:  at device 0.0 on pci4
>> pci5:  on pcib2
>> pcib3:  at device 0.0 on pci5
>> pci6:  on pcib3
>> pcib4:  at device 0.0 on pci6
>> pci7:  on pcib4
>> bce0:  mem
>> 0xf400-0xf5ff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci7
>> miibus0:  on bce0
>> brgphy0:  PHY 1 on miibus0
>> brgphy0:  10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, 1000baseT,
>> 1000baseT-FDX, auto
>> bce0: Ethernet address: 00:22:19:82:e8:45
>> bce0: [ITHREAD]
>> bce0: ASIC (0x57081020); Rev (B2); Bus (PCI-X, 64-bit, 133MHz); F/W
>> (0x04000305); Flags( MFW MSI )
>> pcib5:  at device 1.0 on pci5
>> pci8:  on pcib5
>> pcib6:  at device 0.3 on pci4
>> pci9:  on pcib6
>> pcib7:  at device 3.0 on pci0
>> pci1:  on pcib7
>> mfi0:  port 0xec00-0xecff mem
>> 0xfc48-0xfc4b,0xfc44-0xfc47 irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci1
>> mfi0: Megaraid SAS driver Ver 3.00
>> mfi0: 2031 (292323270s/0x0020/info) - Shutdown command received from host
>> mfi0: 2032 (boot + 3s/0x0020/info) - Firmware initialization started (PCI
>> ID 0060/1000/1f0c/1028)
>> mfi0: 2033 (boot + 3s/0x0020/info) - Firmware version 1.11.82-0473
>> mfi0: 2034 (boot + 3s/0x0008/info) - Battery Present
>> mfi0: 2035 (boot + 3s/0

Re: What server hardware are you buying from the big companies these days?

[Frederique Rijsdijk]

ericr wrote:
> I need to buy some new servers, and mgmt has decreed that we get them from
> someplace which will provide service contracts with on-site h/w suppport,
> which means HP, Dell, Sun, IBM, etc.

We use Dell almost exclusively. Although Dell doesn't officially support
FreeBSD, Dell hardware is tier-1 for FreeBSD. I think their hardware is
quite OK. The machines are built well. Haven't had too much to deal with
their onsite service (which is a good sign), but the times that I did I
think they handled it quite well, the parts were in house within 4 hours
and in a case where a motherboard had to be replaced, a Dell technician
was sent in as well and did his job fine.

Dell's RAID controllers (Perc/5i and Perc/6i) work fine in BSD, and some
tools are available although with Linux emulation which kind of sucks.

Here's a sample dmesg of a 1950:

> Copyright (c) 1992-2009 The FreeBSD Project.
> Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994
> The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved.
> FreeBSD is a registered trademark of The FreeBSD Foundation.
> FreeBSD 7.1-RELEASE-p4 #0: Fri Apr  3 10:28:13 CEST 2009
> r...@hostname:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC
> Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0
> CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU5148  @ 2.33GHz (2327.52-MHz K8-class 
> CPU)
>   Origin = "GenuineIntel"  Id = 0x6fb  Stepping = 11
>   
> Features=0xbfebfbff
>   
> Features2=0x4e3bd
>   AMD Features=0x20100800
>   AMD Features2=0x1
>   Cores per package: 2
> usable memory = 4276400128 (4078 MB)
> avail memory  = 4114935808 (3924 MB)
> ACPI APIC Table: 
> FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor System Detected: 2 CPUs
>  cpu0 (BSP): APIC ID:  0
>  cpu1 (AP): APIC ID:  1
> ioapic0: Changing APIC ID to 2
> ioapic0  irqs 0-23 on motherboard
> kbd1 at kbdmux0
> ath_hal: 0.9.20.3 (AR5210, AR5211, AR5212, RF5111, RF5112, RF2413, RF5413)
> acpi0:  on motherboard
> acpi0: [ITHREAD]
> acpi0: Power Button (fixed)
> Timecounter "ACPI-fast" frequency 3579545 Hz quality 1000
> acpi_timer0: <24-bit timer at 3.579545MHz> port 0x808-0x80b on acpi0
> acpi_hpet0:  iomem 0xfed0-0xfed003ff on acpi0
> Timecounter "HPET" frequency 14318180 Hz quality 900
> pcib0:  port 0xcf8-0xcff on acpi0
> pci0:  on pcib0
> pcib1:  at device 2.0 on pci0
> pci4:  on pcib1
> pcib2:  at device 0.0 on pci4
> pci5:  on pcib2
> pcib3:  at device 0.0 on pci5
> pci6:  on pcib3
> pcib4:  at device 0.0 on pci6
> pci7:  on pcib4
> bce0:  mem 
> 0xf400-0xf5ff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci7
> miibus0:  on bce0
> brgphy0:  PHY 1 on miibus0
> brgphy0:  10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, 1000baseT, 
> 1000baseT-FDX, auto
> bce0: Ethernet address: 00:22:19:82:e8:45
> bce0: [ITHREAD]
> bce0: ASIC (0x57081020); Rev (B2); Bus (PCI-X, 64-bit, 133MHz); F/W 
> (0x04000305); Flags( MFW MSI )
> pcib5:  at device 1.0 on pci5
> pci8:  on pcib5
> pcib6:  at device 0.3 on pci4
> pci9:  on pcib6
> pcib7:  at device 3.0 on pci0
> pci1:  on pcib7
> mfi0:  port 0xec00-0xecff mem 
> 0xfc48-0xfc4b,0xfc44-0xfc47 irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci1
> mfi0: Megaraid SAS driver Ver 3.00
> mfi0: 2031 (292323270s/0x0020/info) - Shutdown command received from host
> mfi0: 2032 (boot + 3s/0x0020/info) - Firmware initialization started (PCI ID 
> 0060/1000/1f0c/1028)
> mfi0: 2033 (boot + 3s/0x0020/info) - Firmware version 1.11.82-0473
> mfi0: 2034 (boot + 3s/0x0008/info) - Battery Present
> mfi0: 2035 (boot + 3s/0x0020/info) - Package version 6.0.3-0002
> mfi0: 2036 (boot + 21s/0x0004/info) - Enclosure (SES) discovered on PD 20(c 
> None/p0)
> mfi0: 2037 (boot + 21s/0x0002/info) - Inserted: Encl PD 20
> mfi0: 2038 (boot + 21s/0x0002/info) - Inserted: PD 20(c None/p0) Info: 
> enclPd=20, scsiType=d, portMap=09, sasAddr=5001e090e8810900,
> mfi0: 2039 (boot + 21s/0x0002/info) - Inserted: PD 00(e0x20/s0)
> mfi0: 2040 (boot + 21s/0x0002/info) - Inserted: PD 00(e0x20/s0) Info: 
> enclPd=20, scsiType=0, portMap=00, sasAddr=5000c5000d253121,
> mfi0: 2041 (boot + 21s/0x0002/info) - Inserted: PD 01(e0x20/s1)
> mfi0: 2042 (boot + 21s/0x0002/info) - Inserted: PD 01(e0x20/s1) Info: 
> enclPd=20, scsiType=0, portMap=01, sasAddr=5000c5000d25eb55,
> mfi0: 2043 (boot + 21s/0x0002/info) - Inserted: PD 02(e0x20/s2)
> mfi0: 2044 (boot + 21s/0x0002/info) - Inserted: PD 02(e0x20/s2) Info: 
> enclPd=20, scsiType=0, portMap=02, sasAddr=5000c5000d2420ed,
> mfi0: 2045 (292323299s/0x0020/info) - Time established as 04/06/09  8:54:59; 
> (29 seconds since power on)
> mfi0: 2046 (292323338s/0x0008/info) - Battery temperature is norm

What server hardware are you buying from the big companies these days?

[ericr]

Hi,

I need to buy some new servers, and mgmt has decreed that we get them from
someplace which will provide service contracts with on-site h/w suppport,
which means HP, Dell, Sun, IBM, etc.

Has anyone bought servers from one of the big manufacturers lately and had
good luck with them?  It seems hard to get them to tell you what controllers
and chipsets they're using in servers, to compare against the supported
hardware list.

What I'm looking for isn't all that exotic:

rack mountable
RAID-5 controller
4-6 or more disks (hot swappable would be nice, but not mandatory)
dual power supplies (hot swappable would be nice, but not mandatory)
CDROM
2 ethernet ports
some RAM
a video card
an Intel or AMD CPU - single, two CPU, or multicore doesn't really matter.

and the all-important onsite service.

These things need to be pretty reliable, both of the data centers they're
going into are a couple  of hours from my house, so I don't want a dead
power supply to take out the server.  We've used SuperMicro's in the past,
and they've been wildly variable.  Some of them have run ok for years, some
died within weeks, and kept dying no matter what parts we put in. (yes, I
checked the power, it was clean.  My guess is just a bad run of
motherboards).  I've got 3 servers that have never been able to stay up for
more than a couple of days, we don't even use them.

Regardless, any one have suggestions on what current models of servers are
out there that run?

Thanks!

- ericr
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Re: 4 GB RAM hardware but only 3.4 GB real/avail

[Peter Giessel]

On Monday, May 11, 2009, at 01:25PM, "Bill Moran"  
wrote:
>In response to "Len Conrad" :
>
>> I'm sure this has been answered but I can't Google it.
>
>Really?  This question has been asked a gazillion times ...

Agreeing with Bill Moran:
http://www.google.com/search?q=+4+GB+RAM+hardware+but+only+3.4+GB+real%2Favail

The first link takes me to:
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000811.html

Which appears to be largely Windows specific, but very detailed if you are 
looking for a
more in-depth explanation and also says:
"To be perfectly clear, this isn't a Windows problem-- it's an x86 hardware 
problem.
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Re: 4 GB RAM hardware but only 3.4 GB real/avail

[Bill Moran]

In response to "Len Conrad" :

> I'm sure this has been answered but I can't Google it.

Really?  This question has been asked a gazillion times ...

> Where's the 600 MB gone to?

i386 arch can only see 4G total, but much hardware reserves the
last 500M or so for special hardware addressing.

The best option it so move to using amd64/EM64T arch, which doesn't
have this problem.

-- 
Bill Moran
http://www.potentialtech.com
http://people.collaborativefusion.com/~wmoran/
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4 GB RAM hardware but only 3.4 GB real/avail

[Len Conrad]

I'm sure this has been answered but I can't Google it.

Where's the 600 MB gone to?

Len

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ath_hal problem on slow hardware, can be tuned?

[Luke Dean]

I'm following 7-STABLE with my laptop.  As soon as ath_hal appeared, I
started having trouble with my wireless connection dropping every few
hours.

+ath0: ath_chan_set: unable to reset channel 11 (2462 Mhz, flags 0x480 hal 
flags 0xc0), hal status 3


The ath manpage documents this error as:
ath%d: ath_chan_set: unable to reset channel %u (%u Mhz)  The Atheros
Hardware Access Layer was unable to reset the hardware when switching
channels during scanning.  This should not happen.

sys/contrib/dev/ath/ah.h documents the error 3 as:
HAL_EIO = 3,    /* Hardware didn't respond as expected */

I can run
/etc/rc.d/netif start
dhclient ath0
to reset the interface and reconnect to the wireless network after
this happens.

I'm thinking that ath_hal doesn't like my card as much as the old
ath driver system did, or perhaps there's some tunable that I need to
adjust.
This is an old laptop.  It's a Sony Vaio PCG-Z505S - a celeron
133MHz "designed for MS Windows 98".  In the best of circumstances, it
can never establish a wireless connection before ntp comes up at boot
time.  wpa_supplicant always "gives up" the first time it attempts to
connect because this hardware is so slow.  I'm saying it's slow.  I wonder
if it's so slow that it's not responding as fast as ath_hal wants it to
respond whenever it decides to rescan for channels.  I know that such
problems can sometimes be solved with sysctls or adjustment of constants.

Would anyone have any suggestions?

The wireless card is a DWL-G650 pccard, revision B2
pciconf -vlbc says this about it:
a...@pci0:2:0:0:class=0x02 card=0x32021186 chip=0x0013168c 
rev=0x01 hdr=0x00

vendor = 'Atheros Communications Inc.'
device = 'AR5212, AR5213 802.11a/b/g Wireless Adapter'
class  = network
subclass   = ethernet
bar   [10] = type Memory, range 32, base 0x8800, size 65536, 
enabled

cap 01[44] = powerspec 2  supports D0 D3  current D0

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Re: How to diagnose hardware problem?

[Graham Bentley]

The first two utils I run if I suspect hardware issues
both independant of resident os ;
http://www.memtest.org/
http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/technolo/dft/dft.htm
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Re: (OT) good laptop hardware repair group or forum

[Chris Whitehouse]

Graeme Dargie wrote:




My grandmother had a HP that just died too.  My brother took the first stab
at it, describing it as a likely "DC-DC converter" problem, and I was seeing
indication of a bad seat on the CPU.  It was working just fine and for the
CPU to become unseated is not likely.  I tore that machine apart until I
couldn't figure out how to get the top or bottom plate off that surrounds
the motherboard.  I didn't fix it, but we all gave up and she went and
bought another system.


The DC-DC converter is what takes the 18V (or whatever) the mains/battery
supplies, and breaks it out into the 3.3V, 5V, 12V, etc needed to power all
the various components.


Someone pointed me to this service manual http://tinyurl.com/de6luh. You 
might find one for yours on the HP site. I suspect something similar has 
happened to mine, I'm going to take it to a shop for advice, some of 
them will do component level fixes which is cheaper than a new motherboard.


Chris
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Fwd: How to diagnose hardware problem?

[John Almberg]

On Apr 13, 2009, at 2:32 PM, Wojciech Puchar wrote:



The database ran well for about 2 minutes, then the server crashed  
again. The filesystem was again corrupted so badly that we could  
not even log in to look at the logs.


did memtest? it looks like it's fine until you stress your hardware


I didn't, but I just installed it and am running it at the moment. So  
far, so good.


The machine has 1G of memory, but I could not get an mlock unless I  
request 100 Meg or less. That is, I need to run something like:


# memtest 100

Does this sound right? If I run with 125 Meg, I get the following:

# memtest 125
memtester version 4.0.8 (64-bit)
Copyright (C) 2007 Charles Cazabon.
Licensed under the GNU General Public License version 2 (only).

pagesize is 4096
pagesizemask is 0xf000
want 125MB (131072000 bytes)
got  125MB (131072000 bytes), trying mlock ...failed for unknown reason.
Continuing with unlocked memory; testing will be slower and less  
reliable.

Loop 1:
  Stuck Address   : ok
  Random Value: ok
  Compare XOR : ok
  Compare SUB : ok
  Compare MUL : ok
etc...


-- John
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Re: How to diagnose hardware problem?

[John Almberg]

First things first; if the machine is still in warranty, don't mess  
with

it but send it back to the manufacturer and demand a replacement.


It is in warranty and I am following their process. I'm hoping to  
short-circuit that process by finding the problem on my own, if  
possible. Plus, I've never really had to deal with a hardware failure  
before, so it's a good learning process.




If the machine is out of warranty, you might consider replacing it
altogether. My employer's IT department ditches PC's and servers at  
the first
failure after the warranty runs out. Accordinf to them it's cheaper  
than

repairing them.


But if you want to have a go, this might help:
http://www.daileyint.com/hmdpc/manual.htm

Basically, it's just a problem of elimination.

First check if your machine is the only one having problems at the
hosting site. Maybe they have unstable electrical power.

Then make sure that all expansion cards and RAM are well-seated, and
that all connectors are OK. Also check that there is no dust build- 
up on

e.g. fans and heatsinks. If necessary, clean carefully with (dry, oil
free) compressed air. Dust can lead to short circuits or reduced
cooling. Next, look for capacitors that have leaked fluid, or have
bulging metal end plates on the motherboard; those are dead or
dying. It's a leading cause of motherboard failure. It is possible to
replace them, but you'll need the right equipment:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fixing-motherboard,1606.html

Install a monitoring program like mbmon or healthd, and have it log to
another machine or a USB stick mounted syncronously. Monitor CPU
temperature, fan speeds and the different voltages. Not all power
supplies are created equally. See the articles at tom's hardware:
  http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/Components,1/Power-Supplies,6/

If you've found nothing so far, it's time to start swapping out
components, starting with the power supply.


This is all good stuff to try. Thanks.

-- John

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Re: How to diagnose hardware problem?

[Roland Smith]

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 12:07:25PM -0400, John Almberg wrote:
> I have what looks like a hardware problem with an Intel 1U server,  
> which I am using mainly as a mysql database server for some of my  
> bigger website clients.
> 
> The server went down last week with a badly corrupted file system.
> 
> After spending a day trying to fix the file system, we gave up and  
> did a fresh install of FreeBSD, PF, and mysql, using our daily  
> backups to restore the database. It all seemed to work fine until I  
> switched the websites from the temporary database server that I had  
> been using, onto the restored server.
> 
> The database ran well for about 2 minutes, then the server crashed  
> again. The filesystem was again corrupted so badly that we could not  
> even log in to look at the logs.
> 
> We've reinstalled FreeBSD again, just to be able to SSH into the box.  
> It looks like there is probably a hardware problem, like a bad power  
> supply or overheating CPU that fails when the load of the database is  
> applied.
> 
> Problem is, I have no idea how to determine which bits are failing.  
> Can anyone suggest a favorite book or website that focuses on how to  
> troubleshoot hardware issues?

First things first; if the machine is still in warranty, don't mess with
it but send it back to the manufacturer and demand a replacement.

If the machine is out of warranty, you might consider replacing it
altogether. My employer's IT department ditches PC's and servers at the first
failure after the warranty runs out. Accordinf to them it's cheaper than
repairing them.


But if you want to have a go, this might help:
http://www.daileyint.com/hmdpc/manual.htm 

Basically, it's just a problem of elimination.

First check if your machine is the only one having problems at the
hosting site. Maybe they have unstable electrical power.

Then make sure that all expansion cards and RAM are well-seated, and
that all connectors are OK. Also check that there is no dust build-up on
e.g. fans and heatsinks. If necessary, clean carefully with (dry, oil
free) compressed air. Dust can lead to short circuits or reduced
cooling. Next, look for capacitors that have leaked fluid, or have
bulging metal end plates on the motherboard; those are dead or
dying. It's a leading cause of motherboard failure. It is possible to
replace them, but you'll need the right equipment:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fixing-motherboard,1606.html

Install a monitoring program like mbmon or healthd, and have it log to
another machine or a USB stick mounted syncronously. Monitor CPU
temperature, fan speeds and the different voltages. Not all power
supplies are created equally. See the articles at tom's hardware:
  http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/Components,1/Power-Supplies,6/ 

If you've found nothing so far, it's time to start swapping out
components, starting with the power supply.


Roland
-- 
R.F.Smith   http://www.xs4all.nl/~rsmith/
[plain text _non-HTML_ PGP/GnuPG encrypted/signed email much appreciated]
pgp: 1A2B 477F 9970 BA3C 2914  B7CE 1277 EFB0 C321 A725 (KeyID: C321A725)


pgpOGV68CCS4P.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: How to diagnose hardware problem?

[Wojciech Puchar]

The database ran well for about 2 minutes, then the server crashed again. The 
filesystem was again corrupted so badly that we could not even log in to look 
at the logs.


did memtest? it looks like it's fine until you stress your hardware



We've reinstalled FreeBSD again, just to be able to SSH into the box. It 
looks like there is probably a hardware problem, like a bad power supply or 
overheating CPU that fails when the load of the database is applied.


Problem is, I have no idea how to determine which bits are failing. Can 
anyone suggest a favorite book or website that focuses on how to troubleshoot 
hardware issues?


Thanks: John

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How to diagnose hardware problem?

[John Almberg]

I have what looks like a hardware problem with an Intel 1U server,  
which I am using mainly as a mysql database server for some of my  
bigger website clients.


The server went down last week with a badly corrupted file system.

After spending a day trying to fix the file system, we gave up and  
did a fresh install of FreeBSD, PF, and mysql, using our daily  
backups to restore the database. It all seemed to work fine until I  
switched the websites from the temporary database server that I had  
been using, onto the restored server.


The database ran well for about 2 minutes, then the server crashed  
again. The filesystem was again corrupted so badly that we could not  
even log in to look at the logs.


We've reinstalled FreeBSD again, just to be able to SSH into the box.  
It looks like there is probably a hardware problem, like a bad power  
supply or overheating CPU that fails when the load of the database is  
applied.


Problem is, I have no idea how to determine which bits are failing.  
Can anyone suggest a favorite book or website that focuses on how to  
troubleshoot hardware issues?


Thanks: John

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RE: (OT) good laptop hardware repair group or forum

[Graeme Dargie]

-Original Message-
From: Tim Judd [mailto:taj...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 12 April 2009 21:38
To: Chris Whitehouse
Cc: Glen Barber; User Questions
Subject: Re: (OT) good laptop hardware repair group or forum

On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 4:55 AM, Chris Whitehouse wrote:

> Glen Barber wrote:
>
>> Hi, Chris
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Chris Whitehouse 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all
>>>
>>> very sorry for this OT post, does anyone know of a good usenet or other
>>> forum to ask about laptop hardware repair? My quite expensive and now
>>> out-of-warranty HP laptop has suddenly become very dead and I'm in shock
>>> :((
>>>
>>>
>> Even though it's (OT), maybe some of us could be able to help.  What's
>> the problem?
>>
>>  I will try the HP support forums as suggested but...
>
> It's a nc6320 (RH383ET#ABU) and was in good condition not too much used and
> has never given trouble. It was booting, with mains and battery plugged in,
> when it suddenly and instantaneously lost power. Now it is completely dead,
> no LEDS. It made a couple of clicks as it died, one of which might have been
> the hard disk head parking.
>
> The power supply is showing what looks like the right voltage. The battery
> has 6 connectors, I tested between all combinations of pairs but all were
> zero voltage. I also tested between all pairs of battery connector pins in
> the back of the laptop with the power plugged in, also zero voltage.
>
> I am suspicious of the battery showing zero, I think it might need wake up
> power from the laptop. Does anyone know if this is the case and what pins
> need power?
>
> I left the power supply plugged in and it and an area on the underside of
> the laptop were mildly warm after some time so some current is flowing.
>
> That's all I can say. I will take the hard disk out and test. Luckily it
> didn't have critical data on it. I'm also competent to dismantle the laptop
> if anyone can suggest a fix.
>
> Thanks
>
> Chris
>

My grandmother had a HP that just died too.  My brother took the first stab
at it, describing it as a likely "DC-DC converter" problem, and I was seeing
indication of a bad seat on the CPU.  It was working just fine and for the
CPU to become unseated is not likely.  I tore that machine apart until I
couldn't figure out how to get the top or bottom plate off that surrounds
the motherboard.  I didn't fix it, but we all gave up and she went and
bought another system.


The DC-DC converter is what takes the 18V (or whatever) the mains/battery
supplies, and breaks it out into the 3.3V, 5V, 12V, etc needed to power all
the various components.

We never ordered one and tried it.  We just replaced the machine.
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You could try re-seating the ram should be located in one of the hatches on the 
underside of the unit, its free and worth a go just incase, if that fails I 
would seriously consider a new laptop, I have seen prices for HP mainboards 
that run in the £300-500 region.

Regards

Graeme Dargie

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Re: (OT) good laptop hardware repair group or forum

[Tim Judd]

On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 4:55 AM, Chris Whitehouse wrote:

> Glen Barber wrote:
>
>> Hi, Chris
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Chris Whitehouse 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all
>>>
>>> very sorry for this OT post, does anyone know of a good usenet or other
>>> forum to ask about laptop hardware repair? My quite expensive and now
>>> out-of-warranty HP laptop has suddenly become very dead and I'm in shock
>>> :((
>>>
>>>
>> Even though it's (OT), maybe some of us could be able to help.  What's
>> the problem?
>>
>>  I will try the HP support forums as suggested but...
>
> It's a nc6320 (RH383ET#ABU) and was in good condition not too much used and
> has never given trouble. It was booting, with mains and battery plugged in,
> when it suddenly and instantaneously lost power. Now it is completely dead,
> no LEDS. It made a couple of clicks as it died, one of which might have been
> the hard disk head parking.
>
> The power supply is showing what looks like the right voltage. The battery
> has 6 connectors, I tested between all combinations of pairs but all were
> zero voltage. I also tested between all pairs of battery connector pins in
> the back of the laptop with the power plugged in, also zero voltage.
>
> I am suspicious of the battery showing zero, I think it might need wake up
> power from the laptop. Does anyone know if this is the case and what pins
> need power?
>
> I left the power supply plugged in and it and an area on the underside of
> the laptop were mildly warm after some time so some current is flowing.
>
> That's all I can say. I will take the hard disk out and test. Luckily it
> didn't have critical data on it. I'm also competent to dismantle the laptop
> if anyone can suggest a fix.
>
> Thanks
>
> Chris
>

My grandmother had a HP that just died too.  My brother took the first stab
at it, describing it as a likely "DC-DC converter" problem, and I was seeing
indication of a bad seat on the CPU.  It was working just fine and for the
CPU to become unseated is not likely.  I tore that machine apart until I
couldn't figure out how to get the top or bottom plate off that surrounds
the motherboard.  I didn't fix it, but we all gave up and she went and
bought another system.


The DC-DC converter is what takes the 18V (or whatever) the mains/battery
supplies, and breaks it out into the 3.3V, 5V, 12V, etc needed to power all
the various components.

We never ordered one and tried it.  We just replaced the machine.
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Re: (OT) good laptop hardware repair group or forum

[Chris Whitehouse]

Glen Barber wrote:

Hi, Chris

On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Chris Whitehouse  wrote:

Hi all

very sorry for this OT post, does anyone know of a good usenet or other
forum to ask about laptop hardware repair? My quite expensive and now
out-of-warranty HP laptop has suddenly become very dead and I'm in shock :((



Even though it's (OT), maybe some of us could be able to help.  What's
the problem?


I will try the HP support forums as suggested but...

It's a nc6320 (RH383ET#ABU) and was in good condition not too much used 
and has never given trouble. It was booting, with mains and battery 
plugged in, when it suddenly and instantaneously lost power. Now it is 
completely dead, no LEDS. It made a couple of clicks as it died, one of 
which might have been the hard disk head parking.


The power supply is showing what looks like the right voltage. The 
battery has 6 connectors, I tested between all combinations of pairs but 
all were zero voltage. I also tested between all pairs of battery 
connector pins in the back of the laptop with the power plugged in, also 
zero voltage.


I am suspicious of the battery showing zero, I think it might need wake 
up power from the laptop. Does anyone know if this is the case and what 
pins need power?


I left the power supply plugged in and it and an area on the underside 
of the laptop were mildly warm after some time so some current is flowing.


That's all I can say. I will take the hard disk out and test. Luckily it 
didn't have critical data on it. I'm also competent to dismantle the 
laptop if anyone can suggest a fix.


Thanks

Chris
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Re: (OT) good laptop hardware repair group or forum

[Chris Whitehouse]

Chris Rees wrote:

2009/4/12 Chris Whitehouse :

Hi all

very sorry for this OT post, does anyone know of a good usenet or other
forum to ask about laptop hardware repair? My quite expensive and now
out-of-warranty HP laptop has suddenly become very dead and I'm in shock :((

Thanks

Chris


Tried the HP fora?

Chris


Thanks, good idea. See, can't think when panicking
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Re: (OT) good laptop hardware repair group or forum

[Glen Barber]

Hi, Chris

On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Chris Whitehouse  wrote:
> Hi all
>
> very sorry for this OT post, does anyone know of a good usenet or other
> forum to ask about laptop hardware repair? My quite expensive and now
> out-of-warranty HP laptop has suddenly become very dead and I'm in shock :((
>

Even though it's (OT), maybe some of us could be able to help.  What's
the problem?

-- 
Glen Barber
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Re: (OT) good laptop hardware repair group or forum

[Chris Rees]

2009/4/12 Chris Whitehouse :
> Hi all
>
> very sorry for this OT post, does anyone know of a good usenet or other
> forum to ask about laptop hardware repair? My quite expensive and now
> out-of-warranty HP laptop has suddenly become very dead and I'm in shock :((
>
> Thanks
>
> Chris

Tried the HP fora?

Chris

-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
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(OT) good laptop hardware repair group or forum

[Chris Whitehouse]

Hi all

very sorry for this OT post, does anyone know of a good usenet or other 
forum to ask about laptop hardware repair? My quite expensive and now 
out-of-warranty HP laptop has suddenly become very dead and I'm in shock :((


Thanks

Chris
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Re: hardware list in a machine

[Masoom Shaikh]

devinfo -v

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 12:29 AM, gahn  wrote:

>
> Hi all:
>
> How could I find out the list of hardware in my machine? I used "dmesg" and
> "var/run/dmesg.boot", it didn't seem to help that much as I expected.
>
> which file lists all of hardware in the machine?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: hardware list in a machine

[Polytropon]

On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 10:24:24 +, Ricardo Jesus  
wrote:
> Polytropon I can't seem to find usbconf.
> 
> % usbconf
> usbconf: Command not found.
> % whereis usbconf
> usbconf:
> 
> Is it a third party application?

My mistake, sorry. Of course it's usbdevs, a tool that comes
with the OS.

% which usbdevs
/usr/sbin/usbdevs

Its manpage offers various options how to show the attached
USB devices, as well as the USB controller's / hub' capabilities.
The most common use is "usbdevs -vd" to obtain the most
important informations.

-- 
Polytropon
>From Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: hardware list in a machine

[Anders Troback]

Den Tue, 10 Mar 2009 10:24:24 +
skrev Ricardo Jesus :

> Polytropon wrote:
> > On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 10:07:51 +, Ricardo Jesus
> >  wrote:
> >> % pciconf -lv
> >> man pciconf for further details.
> > 
> > Additionally: usbconf to list USB devices, and camcontrol
> > to list SCSI devices, as well as atacontrol for ATA devices.
> > 
> > And finally, dmesg. :-)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Note that these are *system tools*. In order to obtain more
> > information, it may be required to install some tools from
> > the Ports Collection.
> > 
> > 
> Polytropon I can't seem to find usbconf.
> 
> % usbconf
> usbconf: Command not found.
> % whereis usbconf
> usbconf:
> 
> Is it a third party application?
> 

Try usbdevs instead!

\\troback

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Re: hardware list in a machine

[Jerry]

On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 10:07:51 +
Ricardo Jesus  wrote:

>Josh Carroll wrote:
>> On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 2:59 PM, gahn  wrote:
>>> Hi all:
>>>
>>> How could I find out the list of hardware in my machine? I used
>>> "dmesg" and "var/run/dmesg.boot", it didn't seem to help that much
>>> as I expected.
>>>
>>> which file lists all of hardware in the machine?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>> 
>> Give the sysutils/dmidecode port a shot.
>> 
>> Josh

>% pciconf -lv
>man pciconf for further details.

This may not be a popular suggestion; however, the only method that I
have ever found to be 100% accurate, other than opening the machine
up an inspecting it, is to query the manufacturer. Dell is pretty good
about this, as is HP. I am not too sure about others. Of course, if you
have added/changed HW after obtaining the machine, you would have to
factor that into any information obtained from the manufacturer.

-- 
Jerry
ges...@yahoo.com

OCEAN:
A body of water occupying about two-thirds
of a world made for man -- who has no gills.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: hardware list in a machine

[Ricardo Jesus]

Polytropon wrote:

On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 10:07:51 +, Ricardo Jesus  
wrote:

% pciconf -lv
man pciconf for further details.


Additionally: usbconf to list USB devices, and camcontrol
to list SCSI devices, as well as atacontrol for ATA devices.

And finally, dmesg. :-)



Note that these are *system tools*. In order to obtain more
information, it may be required to install some tools from
the Ports Collection.



Polytropon I can't seem to find usbconf.

% usbconf
usbconf: Command not found.
% whereis usbconf
usbconf:

Is it a third party application?


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Re: hardware list in a machine

[Polytropon]

On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 10:07:51 +, Ricardo Jesus  
wrote:
> % pciconf -lv
> man pciconf for further details.

Additionally: usbconf to list USB devices, and camcontrol
to list SCSI devices, as well as atacontrol for ATA devices.

And finally, dmesg. :-)



Note that these are *system tools*. In order to obtain more
information, it may be required to install some tools from
the Ports Collection.


-- 
Polytropon
>From Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: hardware list in a machine

[Ricardo Jesus]

Josh Carroll wrote:

On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 2:59 PM, gahn  wrote:

Hi all:

How could I find out the list of hardware in my machine? I used "dmesg" and 
"var/run/dmesg.boot", it didn't seem to help that much as I expected.

which file lists all of hardware in the machine?

Thanks.


Give the sysutils/dmidecode port a shot.

Josh
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% pciconf -lv
man pciconf for further details.
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Re: hardware list in a machine

[Josh Carroll]

On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 2:59 PM, gahn  wrote:
>
> Hi all:
>
> How could I find out the list of hardware in my machine? I used "dmesg" and 
> "var/run/dmesg.boot", it didn't seem to help that much as I expected.
>
> which file lists all of hardware in the machine?
>
> Thanks.

Give the sysutils/dmidecode port a shot.

Josh
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hardware list in a machine

[gahn]

Hi all:

How could I find out the list of hardware in my machine? I used "dmesg" and 
"var/run/dmesg.boot", it didn't seem to help that much as I expected.

which file lists all of hardware in the machine?

Thanks.






  
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Re: Anyone know SunFire hardware

[John Nielsen]

On Monday 02 March 2009 01:57:21 pm Paul Schmehl wrote:
> We have FreeBSD installed on a SunFire box running two AMD Opteron
> processors. I was upgrading to 7.1 STABLE on Friday, and after
> installing the kernel I rebooted.  Now the box is completely unusable. 
> Does anyone know how to get a SunFire box to boot from the CD ROM?  Any
> changes I make to the BIOS seem to be completely ignored.  When I get
> to the FreeBSD boot loader, I lose keyboard, so I can't even go to
> single user mode.  Not being able to boot off the CD is a royal pita.
>
> I've done some Googling, and the most common answer seems to be "hit
> STOP+A", but there is no STOP key on an Intel keyboard.  Is there a
> magic incantation that will work?   Maybe the entrails of a young goat?

I've been working on an X2100 recently. Unfortunately it is running Linux 
but I was able to boot from both a FreeBSD CD (in an external USB CD 
drive) and a USB stick without issue. Keyboard was USB as well.

F2 should take you to the BIOS setup screen, make sure you save your 
changes before exiting.. pretty standard AWARD-type BIOS. There's one 
screen where you can set the boot order between cdrom, hard drive, etc. 
and another submenu where you can set the hard drive boot priority.

HTH,

JN


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Re: Anyone know SunFire hardware

[Dimitri Yioulos]

On Monday 02 March 2009 5:06 pm, new_guy wrote:
> Paul Schmehl-2 wrote:
> > I've done some Googling, and the most common answer seems to be "hit
> > STOP+A",
> > but there is no STOP key on an Intel keyboard.  Is there a magic
> > incantation
> > that will work?   Maybe the entrails of a young goat?
>
> Ctrl + Break
>
> I'm sticking with OpenBSD... BTW.
>
> --

Hopefully that works for you, and in the process spares that poor young goat.

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Re: Anyone know SunFire hardware

[new_guy]

Paul Schmehl-2 wrote:
> 
> I've done some Googling, and the most common answer seems to be "hit
> STOP+A", 
> but there is no STOP key on an Intel keyboard.  Is there a magic
> incantation 
> that will work?   Maybe the entrails of a young goat?
> 

Ctrl + Break

I'm sticking with OpenBSD... BTW.

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Anyone know SunFire hardware

[Paul Schmehl]

We have FreeBSD installed on a SunFire box running two AMD Opteron processors. 
I was upgrading to 7.1 STABLE on Friday, and after installing the kernel I 
rebooted.  Now the box is completely unusable.  Does anyone know how to get a 
SunFire box to boot from the CD ROM?  Any changes I make to the BIOS seem to be 
completely ignored.  When I get to the FreeBSD boot loader, I lose keyboard, so 
I can't even go to single user mode.  Not being able to boot off the CD is a 
royal pita.


I've done some Googling, and the most common answer seems to be "hit STOP+A", 
but there is no STOP key on an Intel keyboard.  Is there a magic incantation 
that will work?   Maybe the entrails of a young goat?


--
Paul Schmehl, Senior Infosec Analyst
As if it wasn't already obvious, my opinions
are my own and not those of my employer.
***
Check the headers before clicking on Reply.

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Re: new hardware platform?? :-)

[perryh]

> On Tue, 24 Feb 2009, Robert Huff wrote:
> > Has any one seen more on this?
> > http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10170648-1.html

http://www.marvell.com/featured/plugcomputing.jsp

They claim only Linux support for the brick, but the blurb on the
88F6281 system-on-chip processor claims BSD support (for the SOC,
not necessarily for this board, and it didn't say which BSD).
BTW it's an ARM processor.

Wojciech Puchar  wrote:
> i don't see monitor connector? :)

It's presumably intended to be used as a headless server, accessed
primarily via the GB Ethernet; however that slot on the top side has
several useful connections including serial and JTAG.  (Their debug
board converts those to USB, but nothing requires you to plug in the
debug board :)

One disappointment is that they apparently did not bring out the
chip's SATA and PCI-E connections.  The PCI-E is only x1, so not
all that great for high-performance video, but burying it inside
the box does seem like an unnecessary limitation.
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Re: new hardware platform?? :-)

[Wojciech Puchar]

i don't see monitor connector? :)

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009, Robert Huff wrote:



Has any one seen more on this?

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10170648-1.html


Robert Huff

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Re: new hardware platform?? :-)

[Glen Barber]

On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 4:44 PM, Robert Huff  wrote:
>
>        Has any one seen more on this?
>
>        http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10170648-1.html
>

I think I found a new wish-list item for my birthday. ;)

-- 
Glen Barber
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new hardware platform?? :-)

[Robert Huff]

Has any one seen more on this?

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10170648-1.html


Robert Huff

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Re: About FreeBSD hardware compatibility?

[Jerry McAllister]

On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 10:15:37AM +0800, aaron lewis wrote:

> Hi,
> I'm  a freebsd lovers , i wonna install fbsd7.1 to my laptop (IBM
> Thinkpad R400 a18).
>   There's no available informations on laptop compatibility lists. So do you
> have any solutions to make a quick check if everything will work?
> I know Solaris has a Install_check tool which will give a list  whether a
> hardware has solaris drivers ,third-part driver or not supported.
> Does Fbsd has something likely?
> Thk in advance!

Here are some web pages to look at.

   http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/laptop/index.html

   http://laptop.bsdgroup.de/freebsd/

   http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-mobile

   http://tuxmobil.org/mobile_bsd.html

In addition, the RELEASE notes section for each release of FreeBSD
contains pages or hardware compatibility notes.   Just look for the
RELEASE and then the hardware compatibility links.

jerry  

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Re: zfs raid and/or hardware raid..

[Erik Trulsson]

On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 10:18:42PM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
> > RAID implementations (and most of the cheaper add-on RAID cards.)  RAID that
> > is supported in the BIOS have one advantage over other software
> > implementations, and that is that you can boot from all supported RAID
> > configurations, which is not always the case otherwise.
> 
> always - if you use software RAID (gmirror) properly.

gmirror handles only RAID-1 if I am not mistaken.
That is the exception where you can boot from a RAID array even the BIOS
does not know about it. (But I would worry about what would happen if you
were trying to boot from a degraded RAID-1 array.  What happens if the BIOS
tries to boot the wrong disk?)

For a RAID-0, RAID-5, or RAID-10 array on the other hand, I think it is not
possible to boot from them unless you have a BIOS which understands the
array format.



-- 

Erik Trulsson
ertr1...@student.uu.se
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Re: zfs raid and/or hardware raid..

[Wojciech Puchar]

RAID implementations (and most of the cheaper add-on RAID cards.)  RAID that
is supported in the BIOS have one advantage over other software
implementations, and that is that you can boot from all supported RAID
configurations, which is not always the case otherwise.


always - if you use software RAID (gmirror) properly.

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Re: zfs raid and/or hardware raid..

[Erik Trulsson]

On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 12:58:04PM -0500, B. Cook wrote:
> I have a dimension 9150 that I am going to put amd64 freebsd on to play 
> with.
> 
> It has Intel ICH7 SATA300 on it, in the bios it says it can do raid.
> 
> I'm assuming that would be a hardware raid..

You are assuming wrong.  It is software RAID, just like almost all on-board
RAID implementations (and most of the cheaper add-on RAID cards.)  RAID that
is supported in the BIOS have one advantage over other software
implementations, and that is that you can boot from all supported RAID
configurations, which is not always the case otherwise.


> 
> Would I be better off just using two disks and mirror them in software 
> raid (zpool) or using the Intel hardware-ish raid and then zfs the raid?
> 
> box has 2G of ram, and a pair of 250G sata 300 drives.
> 
> clues appreciated.

ZFS still feels a little bit too experimental for my own tastes (although
opinions differ on that matter), but apart from that ZFS is probably the
best solution.




-- 

Erik Trulsson
ertr1...@student.uu.se
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Re: zfs raid and/or hardware raid..

[Matias Surdi]

If your are just going to "play with it", the play as much as you want 
with ZFS.


But, if you are going to setup something that will have to go on 
production some day, at least at this moment i wouldn't recommend you ZFS.


I've used it for a backup server, and due to power failures in the 
building, all the times the energy went out the pool got corrupted, the 
las one was completely unrecoverable.I ended up using gconcat/gstripe 
and so on, and despite a couple more power failures, just once I've had 
to run fsck.Everything works (and "feels") much more solid now.


Just my opinion.


B. Cook wrote:
I have a dimension 9150 that I am going to put amd64 freebsd on to play 
with.


It has Intel ICH7 SATA300 on it, in the bios it says it can do raid.

I'm assuming that would be a hardware raid..

Would I be better off just using two disks and mirror them in software 
raid (zpool) or using the Intel hardware-ish raid and then zfs the raid?


box has 2G of ram, and a pair of 250G sata 300 drives.

clues appreciated.
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zfs raid and/or hardware raid..

[B. Cook]

I have a dimension 9150 that I am going to put amd64 freebsd on to play 
with.


It has Intel ICH7 SATA300 on it, in the bios it says it can do raid.

I'm assuming that would be a hardware raid..

Would I be better off just using two disks and mirror them in software 
raid (zpool) or using the Intel hardware-ish raid and then zfs the raid?


box has 2G of ram, and a pair of 250G sata 300 drives.

clues appreciated.
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Re: RTL8201 not explicitly in 7.1 supported hardware

[Mel]

On Thursday 05 February 2009 17:10:54 Len Conrad wrote:
> A client wants to buy some TigerDirect/VisionMan 1U's with this mobo:
>
> http://www.biostar-usa.com/mbdetails.asp?model=P4M900%20MICRO%20775
>
> RTL8201 PHY Ethernet
>
> http://www.freebsd.org/releases/7.1R/hardware.html
>
> ... shows only RTL81xx

The RTL8201L should be supported since Apr 2002:

cvs annotate sys/dev/mii/miidevs:
...
1.18 (wpaul07-Apr-02): model REALTEK RTL8201L \
   0x0020 RTL8201L 10/100 media interface
...

Whether this is the exact card, you'd have to get a pciconf -lv and look for 
the 0x0020 model. You could always try freebsd-hardware list.
-- 
Mel

Problem with today's modular software: they start with the modules
and never get to the software part.
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RTL8201 not explicitly in 7.1 supported hardware

[Len Conrad]

A client wants to buy some TigerDirect/VisionMan 1U's with this mobo:

http://www.biostar-usa.com/mbdetails.asp?model=P4M900%20MICRO%20775

RTL8201 PHY Ethernet

http://www.freebsd.org/releases/7.1R/hardware.html

... shows only RTL81xx

has anybody got RTL8201 working with FreeBSD 7.1, 7.0?

thanks,
Len

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How to force usage of pcm1 instead of pcm0 (HDA audio hardware two time present)

[O. Hartmann]

Hello,
since I have a AMD/ATI HDMI-capable graphics hardware my onboard sound 
hardware (HDA) gets recogniced as pcm1-3, the HDA capable digital device 
onboard the graphics adaptor is numberd pcm0. How can I force the OS 
(FreeBSD 7.1-STABLE) to number the on-graphics-HDA device as the last 
one found?


Thanks,
Oliver
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Re: atacontrol software or hardware raid

[Wojciech Puchar]

ar RAID devices are almost always software/BIOS RAID.  In this case
intel matrix raid is software RAID provided by the system BIOS.  The


it's always better to use gmirror. not mentioning more flexibility (you do 
not have to mirror whole drives)

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Re: atacontrol software or hardware raid

[Josh Paetzel]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Omer Faruk Sen wrote:
> How can I detect if system has Software or hardware raid? Since in manual 
> page:
> 
>  The atacontrol command can also be used to create purely software RAID
>  arrays in systems that do NOT have a "real" hardware RAID card such as a
>  Highpoint or Promise card.  A common scenario is a 1U server such as the
>  HP DL320 G4 or G5.  These servers contain a SATA controller that has 2
>  channels that can contain 2 disks per channel, but the servers are wired
>  to only place a single SATA drive on each channel.
> 
> Or how can I find out if the hardware is "real" hardware RAID card?
> For example my system has following dmesg output:
> 
> ad4: 152627MB  at ata2-master SATA300
> ad6: 152627MB  at ata3-master SATA300
> ar0: 152625MB  status: READY
> ar0: disk0 READY (master) using ad6 at ata3-master
> ar0: disk1 READY (mirror) using ad4 at ata2-master
> 
> This system is an intel server with S3210SH server board in it. While
> installing system I see ad4,ad6 and ar0 as harddrives in sysinstall. I
> choose to install ar0.
> 
> Additionally as far as I see ar0 is very susceptible to errors since a
> single CRC error can break the RAID consistency is that normal?  I
> really appreciate those who uses such a kind of RAID1
> 
> Regards.
> ___
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> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
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ar RAID devices are almost always software/BIOS RAID.  In this case
intel matrix raid is software RAID provided by the system BIOS.  The
disadvantages of using it is your RAID array isn't portable to machines
that don't have the same BIOS raid implimentation.

One of the advantages of BIOS RAID is that you can boot from stripes,
which you aren't doing anyways.

You'll probably find that disabling the motherboard RAID and creating a
gmirror device is a better option for software RAID 1.

- --
Thanks,

Josh Paetzel

PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5ABC 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin)

iEYEARECAAYFAkl81jYACgkQJvkB8Sevrsu1swCcCCq6/cG0WYajBvutibgvhIaA
kn8An27y/SPbEKzRyaWntfZV95z/UJia
=k2Gx
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: atacontrol software or hardware raid

[Josh Paetzel]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Omer Faruk Sen wrote:
> How can I detect if system has Software or hardware raid? Since in manual 
> page:
> 
>  The atacontrol command can also be used to create purely software RAID
>  arrays in systems that do NOT have a "real" hardware RAID card such as a
>  Highpoint or Promise card.  A common scenario is a 1U server such as the
>  HP DL320 G4 or G5.  These servers contain a SATA controller that has 2
>  channels that can contain 2 disks per channel, but the servers are wired
>  to only place a single SATA drive on each channel.
> 
> Or how can I find out if the hardware is "real" hardware RAID card?
> For example my system has following dmesg output:
> 
> ad4: 152627MB  at ata2-master SATA300
> ad6: 152627MB  at ata3-master SATA300
> ar0: 152625MB  status: READY
> ar0: disk0 READY (master) using ad6 at ata3-master
> ar0: disk1 READY (mirror) using ad4 at ata2-master
> 
> This system is an intel server with S3210SH server board in it. While
> installing system I see ad4,ad6 and ar0 as harddrives in sysinstall. I
> choose to install ar0.
> 
> Additionally as far as I see ar0 is very susceptible to errors since a
> single CRC error can break the RAID consistency is that normal?  I
> really appreciate those who uses such a kind of RAID1
> 
> Regards.
> ___
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ar RAID devices are almost always software/BIOS RAID.  In this case
intel matrix raid is software RAID provided by the system BIOS.  The
disadvantages of using it is your RAID array isn't portable to machines
that don't have the same BIOS raid implimentation.

One of the advantages of BIOS RAID is that you can boot from stripes,
which you aren't doing anyways.

You'll probably find that disabling the motherboard RAID and creating a
gmirror device is a better option for software RAID 1.

- --
Thanks,

Josh Paetzel

PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5ABC 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin)

iEYEARECAAYFAkl81jYACgkQJvkB8Sevrsu1swCcCCq6/cG0WYajBvutibgvhIaA
kn8An27y/SPbEKzRyaWntfZV95z/UJia
=k2Gx
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
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atacontrol software or hardware raid

[Omer Faruk Sen]

How can I detect if system has Software or hardware raid? Since in manual page:

 The atacontrol command can also be used to create purely software RAID
 arrays in systems that do NOT have a "real" hardware RAID card such as a
 Highpoint or Promise card.  A common scenario is a 1U server such as the
 HP DL320 G4 or G5.  These servers contain a SATA controller that has 2
 channels that can contain 2 disks per channel, but the servers are wired
 to only place a single SATA drive on each channel.

Or how can I find out if the hardware is "real" hardware RAID card?
For example my system has following dmesg output:

ad4: 152627MB  at ata2-master SATA300
ad6: 152627MB  at ata3-master SATA300
ar0: 152625MB  status: READY
ar0: disk0 READY (master) using ad6 at ata3-master
ar0: disk1 READY (mirror) using ad4 at ata2-master

This system is an intel server with S3210SH server board in it. While
installing system I see ad4,ad6 and ar0 as harddrives in sysinstall. I
choose to install ar0.

Additionally as far as I see ar0 is very susceptible to errors since a
single CRC error can break the RAID consistency is that normal?  I
really appreciate those who uses such a kind of RAID1

Regards.
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Re: Recommendations on reliable home fileserver hardware?

[perryh]

> there is also the droboshare. great little fileserver.

Last I knew Drobo supported only Samba, not NFS -- but that
was some time ago.  Have they come out with an upgrade?
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Re: Recommendations on reliable home fileserver hardware?

[Brian McCann]

On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 10:13 AM, michael  wrote:
>
>
> Clifton Royston wrote:
>>
>> I'd consider running a Mac Mini (tiny, silent, s/b reliable) if
>> it weren't for needing 2+ drives for mirroring.
>>
>
> this would work fine with gmirror using usb/firewire drives.
> there is also the droboshare. great little fileserver.
> aopen cubes run great. i've had one since 2005, runs quiet with two fans.
> they fully support freebsd and it can be more than a fileserver. its about
> the size of a two slice toaster. it runs below 25db of noise.
>
>>  I'm comfortable either building my own system, or buying a packaged
>> system if it offers better value.
>>
>>  Any advice would be welcomed.
>>  -- Clifton
>>
>>

As a heads up, if you do this, do NOT use the Western Digital
MyBooks...I tried this...and gave up and got a D-Link NAS.  The
MyBooks "sleep" after no activity, and I was getting serious
corruption.

--Brian

-- 
_-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_
Brian McCann

"I don't have to take this abuse from you -- I've got hundreds of
people waiting to abuse me."
-- Bill Murray, "Ghostbusters"
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Re: Recommendations on reliable home fileserver hardware?

[michael]

Clifton Royston wrote:

I'd consider running a Mac Mini (tiny, silent, s/b reliable) if
it weren't for needing 2+ drives for mirroring.
  

this would work fine with gmirror using usb/firewire drives.
there is also the droboshare. great little fileserver.
aopen cubes run great. i've had one since 2005, runs quiet with two fans.
they fully support freebsd and it can be more than a fileserver. its 
about the size of a two slice toaster. it runs below 25db of noise.



  I'm comfortable either building my own system, or buying a packaged
system if it offers better value.

  Any advice would be welcomed.
  -- Clifton

  

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Re: About FreeBSD hardware compatibility?

[Da Rock]

On Sun, 2009-01-18 at 23:53 -0700, Tim Judd wrote:
> aaron lewis wrote:
> > Hi,
> > I'm  a freebsd lovers , i wonna install fbsd7.1 to my laptop (IBM
> > Thinkpad R400 a18).
> >   There's no available informations on laptop compatibility lists. So do you
> > have any solutions to make a quick check if everything will work?
> > I know Solaris has a Install_check tool which will give a list  whether a
> > hardware has solaris drivers ,third-part driver or not supported.
> > Does Fbsd has something likely?
> > Thk in advance!
> >
> >   
> The most reliable way to check, is by booting the livefs cd and checking 
> pciconf -lvvv for any none* devices.  the none* devices may be given a 
> driver if you load a module, but what's in GENERIC on the livefs, is 
> what's in GENERIC when you first boot it from the hard disk.
> 
> This is an invaluable tool when I am just curious.  It's also the 
> invaluable tool for disaster recovery.  Try the CD, and post to 
> -questions when you get stuck with a device that should be recognized.
> 
> --Tim

Failing that look for the unknown devices (may show like 'multimedia
device', etc) when the cd boots up prior to sysinstall. Just keep your
eyes peeled as the text scrolls past; its not normally too fast that you
can't read it. This may not be 100% (or maybe it is...) but if it shows
up those tell tale signs here you can be sure its not supported.

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Re: Recommendations on reliable home fileserver hardware?

[Tim Judd]

Clifton Royston wrote:

  My FreeBSD file server at home has been running for 5 or 6 years on a
succession of generic PC "small form factor" boxes (a.k.a "shoebox
cases".)  I'm not very happy with this approach, because the hardware
keeps dying every two years or so.  The latest incarnation is getting
flakier and flakier and it's time to replace it.  I think one problem
is that the cooling is lousy on the ones I've used, at least with two
hard drives - I've ended up running with the cover off so it won't die
rapidly - but maybe there are better ones out there.

  Can anyone recommend an integrated SFF system or other small
case/mobo combination which they're using with FreeBSD 6 or 7, and
which is both long-lived and fairly quiet?  (It sits on my desk, and
near my wife's desk, so the vacuum-cleaner-like noise levels from many
1U servers will not cut it.)

  As I am running two 200G PATA drives in gmirror - this has saved me
twice now - one additional requirement is that it must fit at least two
standard 3.5" hard drives and have an IDE interface.  (Eventually I may
switch over to SATA but would rather not change everything at the same
time.)  I'd consider running a Mac Mini (tiny, silent, s/b reliable) if
it weren't for needing 2+ drives for mirroring.

  I'm comfortable either building my own system, or buying a packaged
system if it offers better value.

  Any advice would be welcomed.
  -- Clifton

  
I've got a shoebox Gateway I love for the case size, however it's drive 
location for the HDD has to be the worst place on earth to put it 
there.  I'm almost tempted to pull the floppy drive out and stick the 
hdd in there instead -- but I digress.


Taking a little more for desk space, you can always run with 1 internal 
3.5" drive, and hook up an external USB drive for the mirror.  FreeBSD 
won't think of it any different, it's just an 'ad' device and a 'da' device.


FWIW, this is just another option for you.

HTH --Tim
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Re: About FreeBSD hardware compatibility?

[Tim Judd]

aaron lewis wrote:

Hi,
I'm  a freebsd lovers , i wonna install fbsd7.1 to my laptop (IBM
Thinkpad R400 a18).
  There's no available informations on laptop compatibility lists. So do you
have any solutions to make a quick check if everything will work?
I know Solaris has a Install_check tool which will give a list  whether a
hardware has solaris drivers ,third-part driver or not supported.
Does Fbsd has something likely?
Thk in advance!

  
The most reliable way to check, is by booting the livefs cd and checking 
pciconf -lvvv for any none* devices.  the none* devices may be given a 
driver if you load a module, but what's in GENERIC on the livefs, is 
what's in GENERIC when you first boot it from the hard disk.


This is an invaluable tool when I am just curious.  It's also the 
invaluable tool for disaster recovery.  Try the CD, and post to 
-questions when you get stuck with a device that should be recognized.


--Tim
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Re: Recommendations on reliable home fileserver hardware?

[Chris Hill]

On Sun, 18 Jan 2009, Clifton Royston wrote:

[snip]

 Can anyone recommend an integrated SFF system or other small 
case/mobo combination which they're using with FreeBSD 6 or 7, and 
which is both long-lived and fairly quiet?  (It sits on my desk, and 
near my wife's desk, so the vacuum-cleaner-like noise levels from many 
1U servers will not cut it.)


 As I am running two 200G PATA drives in gmirror - this has saved me 
twice now - one additional requirement is that it must fit at least 
two standard 3.5" hard drives and have an IDE interface.  (Eventually 
I may switch over to SATA but would rather not change everything at 
the same time.)  I'd consider running a Mac Mini (tiny, silent, s/b 
reliable) if it weren't for needing 2+ drives for mirroring.


 I'm comfortable either building my own system, or buying a packaged 
system if it offers better value.


I have a Dell GX150 SFF which has been running 24/7 for about two years 
now with no problems (knock on wood). Right now it's running 
7.1-PRERELEASE from November. It's small and very quiet; I like it.


You may have issues with: a) it nominally only supports one hard drive, 
but there are "slimline" spots for optical and diskette drives, so you 
may be able to commandeer one of those for a second hard drive; b) the 
machine I have has SATA interface, which is truly nothing to fear. From 
FreeBSD's standpoint, it looks exactly like ATA. If I were trying to do 
what you want to do, I'd probably end up with one HD running SATA in the 
"hard drive" slot, and the other running PATA in the "optical" slot. I 
don't know if the physical dimensions would work out for that.


See the service manual at 
http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/opgx150/sm_en/smdsktp.htm


..and the user guide at 
http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/opgx150/en/ug/index.htm


Anyway, I've had good luck so far with Dell desktop hardware; it seems 
to be well-made, easy to work with and QUIET. Check it out if you can 
get a machine cheap or free.


Hope this helps.

--
Chris Hill   ch...@monochrome.org
** [ Busy Expunging <|> ]
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About FreeBSD hardware compatibility?

[aaron lewis]

Hi,
I'm  a freebsd lovers , i wonna install fbsd7.1 to my laptop (IBM
Thinkpad R400 a18).
  There's no available informations on laptop compatibility lists. So do you
have any solutions to make a quick check if everything will work?
I know Solaris has a Install_check tool which will give a list  whether a
hardware has solaris drivers ,third-part driver or not supported.
Does Fbsd has something likely?
Thk in advance!
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Recommendations on reliable home fileserver hardware?

[Clifton Royston]

  My FreeBSD file server at home has been running for 5 or 6 years on a
succession of generic PC "small form factor" boxes (a.k.a "shoebox
cases".)  I'm not very happy with this approach, because the hardware
keeps dying every two years or so.  The latest incarnation is getting
flakier and flakier and it's time to replace it.  I think one problem
is that the cooling is lousy on the ones I've used, at least with two
hard drives - I've ended up running with the cover off so it won't die
rapidly - but maybe there are better ones out there.

  Can anyone recommend an integrated SFF system or other small
case/mobo combination which they're using with FreeBSD 6 or 7, and
which is both long-lived and fairly quiet?  (It sits on my desk, and
near my wife's desk, so the vacuum-cleaner-like noise levels from many
1U servers will not cut it.)

  As I am running two 200G PATA drives in gmirror - this has saved me
twice now - one additional requirement is that it must fit at least two
standard 3.5" hard drives and have an IDE interface.  (Eventually I may
switch over to SATA but would rather not change everything at the same
time.)  I'd consider running a Mac Mini (tiny, silent, s/b reliable) if
it weren't for needing 2+ drives for mirroring.

  I'm comfortable either building my own system, or buying a packaged
system if it offers better value.

  Any advice would be welcomed.
  -- Clifton

-- 
Clifton Royston  --  clift...@iandicomputing.com / clift...@lava.net
   President  - I and I Computing * http://www.iandicomputing.com/
 Custom programming, network design, systems and network consulting services
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Help me select hardware and software options for very large server

[Terry Kennedy]

  [I decided to ask this question here as it overlaps -hardware, -current,
and a couple other lists. I'd be glad to redirect the conversation to a
list that's a better fit, if anyone would care to suggest one.]

  I'm in the process of planning the hardware and software for the second
generation of my RAIDzilla file servers (see http://www.tmk.com/raidzilla
for the current generation, in production for 4+ years).

  I expect that what I'm planning is probably "off the scale" in terms of
processing and storage capacity, and I'd like to find out and address any
issues before spending lots of money. Here's what I'm thinking of:

o Chassis - CI Design SR316 (same model as current chassis, except i2c link
  between RAID controller and front panel
o Motherboard - Intel S5000PSLSATAR
o CPU - 2x Intel Xeon E5450 BX80574E5450P
p Remote management - Intel Remote Management Module 2 - AXXRM2
o Memory - 16GB - 8x Kingston KVR667D2D4F5/2GI
o RAID controller - 3Ware 9650SE-16ML w/ BBU-MODULE-04
o Drives - 16x 2TB drives [not mentioning manufacturer yet]
o Cables - 4x multi-lane SATA cables
o DVD-ROM drive
o Auxiliary slot fan next to BBU card
o Adaptec AHA-39160 (for Quantum Superloader 3 tape drive)

  So much for the hardware. On the software front:

o FreeBSD 8.x?
o amd64 architecture
o MBR+UFS2 for operating system partitions (hard partition in controller)
o GPT+ZFS for data partitions
o Multiple 8TB data partitions (separate 8TB controller partitions or one
  big partition divided with GPT?)

  I looked at "Large data storage in FreeBSD", but that seems to be a stale
page from 2005 or so: http://www.freebsd.org/projects/bigdisk/index.html

  I'm pretty sure I need ZFS, since even with the 2TB partitions I have now,
taking snapshots for dump or doing a fsck take approximately forever 8-)
I'll be using the harware RAID 6 on the 3Ware controller, so I'd only be
using ZFS to get filesystems larger than 2TB.

  I've been following the ZFS discussions on -current and -stable, and I
think that while it isn't quite ready yet, it probably will be ready in
a few months, being available around the same time I get this hardware
asssembled. I recall reading that there will be an import of newer ZFS 
code in the near future.

  Similarly, the ports collection seems to be moving along nicely with
amd64 support.

  I think this system may have the most storage ever configured on a
FreeBSD system, and it is probably up near the top in terms of CPU and
memory. Once I have it assembled I'd be glad to let any FreeBSD devel-
opers test and stress it if that would help improve FreeBSD on that
type of configuration.

In the meantime, any suggestions regarding the hardware or software con-
figuration would be welcomed.

Terry Kennedy http://www.tmk.com
te...@tmk.com New York, NY USA
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