Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Peter N. M. Hansteen writes: copyright assignment isn't entirely doable in all jurisdictions, and beside the point. Generally, commercial rights can always be assigned. Moral rights often cannot be assigned, but since they are practically worthless, this usually isn't a problem. i assume you have been told about the 'published under a license' phenomenon. You need written documentation of a license, signed by the copyright holder. You need this for every module or group of modules that is copyrighted by any specific person or entity. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchasNetBSD!!!
***you are a man of high ideas Ted, but you are overlooking a fundamental aspect, that ALL LIFE IS TEMPORAL - AND MOVES ON WITH CONTINUAL CHANGE AND IMPROVEMENT which means to say : DONT CLING TO THE PAST WHEN OPPORTUNITIES TO PROGRESS OCCUR ***for example almost every week i sort thru the computer room - updating files and hardware, and most importantly CHUCKING OUT old stuff that is obsolete or doesnt work. if i didnt do that the room would be jammed solid. Just the same with your MIND. clear out the junk and move on. PEOPLE DIE. LOVED ONES DIE. we will meet them again ONE DAY, but in the mean-time MOVE ON.more people to meet. more things to do. MORE OVERSTANDING OF THE TOTAL PATTERN OF LIFE TO OBTAIN. you dont have to be religious to believe in the AFTERLIFE and PURPOSE. CHOP THE BEASTIE if you feel like it ! if god starts annoying you, then tell it (that Kamanistic Temporal Image) to fuck off. put a FRESH new label on,and start a fresh NEW DAY :) does not mean you forget the past and origins, just means you dont get DRAGGED BACK by them. ***wow, thats a load off my chest !now something technical Ted can you tell me please how to change the Screen resolution ? [exact command line please - im an fbsd rookie].many thanks :) --- On Saturday 12 February 2005 09:49, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: You and I both understand the ideals at stake with Beastie. But an even more important ideal is that a civilized person fights against something he sees that is wrong, he does not remain silent. Remaining silent when an injustice is being done makes you no better than the criminal doing the injustice. Even if we lose this and are pushed over, it doesen't matter, because when we chose to fight, even though we lose, that means we have won when it comes to the higher ideal of fighting against injustice. I feel sorry for people like Garance, really. Here's a person who is tired of explaining Beastie, in short, he is tired of explaining the ideals of why FreeBSD is important. To him, FreeBSD is just another operating system - it's a better tool than the others, yes, but to him that is all there is to it. He doesen't really care about the ideals behind Open Source, not emotionally that is. To him it is all intellectual. He has no passion anymore for it, if he ever did. His goal is to see FreeBSD expanded simply because it's better than all the other operating systems, and he is willing even to sacrifice things that are integral to it - such as Beastie - in his quest to expand it. What he sadly doesen't understand is that going down this road means that at every turn you compromise something else, and that by the time you get to the end of the road, what you have been carrying is so twisted and changed that you hate it and hate yourself for allowing it to be ruined. You and I we know that there is more to the FreeBSD operating system movement than mere software. And a lot of the userbase understands this at a gut level too. We may not be able to immediately frame in words what that indefinable thing is - but we know it's there. Unless you want to switch that part of yourself off, your not going to be able to help seeing that what is happening is wrong. And when you know that something is wrong, you also know that you have a duty to speak out about it. Also, don't forget that there are many people that who are just beginning to understand what FreeBSD is all about. Even though they don't fully understand what makes FreeBSD so special and unique yet, this issue still matters to them, and they are depending on folks like us who do fully understand it. We also have a duty to them to speak out. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
On 12 Feb 2005, at 07:12, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: With BSD, the copyrights on it are held by the University of Berkeley and by the FreeBSD Project. Really? Grepped for Copyright in /usr/src recently? Ceri ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Ceri Davies writes: Really? Grepped for Copyright in /usr/src recently? Wow! What a mess! How much would it cost to have a team of lawyers verify that all those copyrights are cleared? Why are people asserting their own copyrights in the code? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why are people asserting their own copyrights in the code? Because they wrote the software in question, perhaps? -- Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/ http://www.datadok.no/ http://www.nuug.no/ First, we kill all the spammers The Usenet Bard, Twice-forwarded tales ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 05:02:19PM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Ceri Davies writes: Really? Grepped for Copyright in /usr/src recently? Wow! What a mess! How much would it cost to have a team of lawyers verify that all those copyrights are cleared? Why are people asserting their own copyrights in the code? Uh, because they're the author, of course. Kris pgpykFPfy16T2.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Peter N. M. Hansteen writes: Because they wrote the software in question, perhaps? So? If it's truly open source, the copyrights should be assigned. All it takes is one copyright holder who withdraws a license and an entire package can become unusable. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
* Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] [0216 21:16]: Peter N. M. Hansteen writes: Because they wrote the software in question, perhaps? So? If it's truly open source, the copyrights should be assigned. All it takes is one copyright holder who withdraws a license and an entire package can become unusable. Shut up now, ok? or take it elsewhere. -- 'A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction into a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.' -- Calvin discovers Usenet Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Dick Davies writes: Shut up now, ok? or take it elsewhere. Don't forget discovery. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nope. Beastie is a way of life. I'd be quite upset if it were dropped for whatever reason. It is so intimately tied to FreeBSD that it would be a PR disaster if it were to be changed. NetBSD never had a real The BSD daemon image stems from around 4.3BSD, or an even earlier release, not FreeBSD. It can therefore never be specific for the FreeBSD system, in the same way Ronald McDonald doesn't stand for the Big Mac alone, but rather for the entire company. In earlier years, before the general hype about Linux and *BSD, I've seen the image being used in presentations about Unix in general. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Because they wrote the software in question, perhaps? So? If it's truly open source, the copyrights should be assigned. copyright assignment isn't entirely doable in all jurisdictions, and beside the point. All it takes is one copyright holder who withdraws a license and an entire package can become unusable. i assume you have been told about the 'published under a license' phenomenon. To me it sounds like you need to read up on a few things. -- Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/ http://www.datadok.no/ http://www.nuug.no/ First, we kill all the spammers The Usenet Bard, Twice-forwarded tales ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:16 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: many in no way means a majority. many is more than a few, where a few is a handful (3-5 or so). There are probably more than a handful who do it as more than a hobby. A lot of good people do it on their own time as well, and I salute that. But a lot of people like Yahoo and others (Apple probably) submit stuff that ends up in FreeBSD and they pay their people to do so. Lots of features, like jails as I understand it, started off by someone getting paid to implement stuff. I hope people are not being as careless as you imply. Being paid to write code as an employee means relinguishing copyright in the code to one's employer. If people are actually doing this for FreeBSD, then some of the code in FreeBSD is owned by their employers, which can become a legal nightmare and stop the project dead in its tracks overnight. Aren't there any _lawyers_ working on this project? Sorry, but the employers are freely offering the code and assigning copyrights as necessary. Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: This is all very well and good, but is irrelevant to the earlier discussion. It doesn't have to be relevant to the earlier discussion. It is very highly relevant to FreeBSD. You are not a Suit we are trying to impress or get to use FreeBSD. You are on a general technical support mailing list and behavior here is different than would be in a formal presentation or even official support mechanism. The problem is that this is the only behavior there is for the moment. There is no official support mechanism, and I daresay there is virtually no one who can do good formal presentations of the OS, either. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such asNetBSD!!!
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: Then if it is so unimportant why change it from beastie? I don't know ... why? The discussion I've seen has centered on developing a logo, not changing the cartoon mascot. I personally don't care about any of it for my own use, as long as the software remains at the same high quality level. But a logo would be nice for promoting the OS to other parties, particularly corporations and other similar organizations (as opposed to geeks sitting at home in a t-shirt in front of the machine with a Pepsi in hand). -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
-Original Message- From: Garance A Drosehn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 1:59 PM To: Ted Mittelstaedt; freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!! And frankly, most FreeBSD commiters do not read the -advocacy or -questions mailing lists (I never read advocacy, for instance). So maybe only three or four committers have explicitly expressed support for a LOGO CONTEST. Are you just too dense to understand that supporting a logo contest automatically implies that you are unsatisfied with the current logo? If you like Beastie why on earth would you want a contest to replace him? For the last time, it is not the contest that I and others are objecting to. It is what you intend to do with the results of the contest - that is, replace Beastie. How many committers have responded here saying just how much they hate the idea of even running the contest? Why would they bother posting at all? It is not they who are being attacked - it's you and the others who want to dump Beastie and replace him. Of course since they aren't being attacked they aren't going to have a need to defend themselves. And let me say once again, this is FOR a LOGO contest -- which is not the same as being Anti-beastie. All of us have said that the Beastie will remain as a mascot. An hour ago you posted this: if our much-larger user base has any interesting ideas for a new logo you did NOT say: if our much-larger user base has any interesting ideas for a logo Your statement implied that a logo already existed - which in fact it does. You also said: Somehow the ones who like the PRESENT logo seem to think.. What I see here is that when your using the we never had a logo before argument, you pretend a logo didn't exist, but all other times you acknowledge that it does exist. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such asNetBSD!!!
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: The committers do know about this and are careful about it. You will note that this is discussed more fully here: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributing/contrib- how.html under the section: New Code or Major Value-Added Packages I am very surprised that you missed this. Could it be made any more obvious? Yes, it could be made about a thousand times more obvious. It should be right on the first page of the site, not buried in the documentation. And it is still a bit worrisome, because it says When working with large amounts of code, the touchy subject of copyrights also invariably comes up. Unfortunately, copyright applies to small amounts of code, too, not just large amounts. Even a few lines can lead to litigation if the copyright status of those lines is not verified and cleared before they are incorporated into the product. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such asNetBSD!!!
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: Technically superior products are technically superior because they have MORE than the customary RD put into them. That makes them MORE expensive than the median/mediocre products that dominate a market. Explain Intel. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Garance A Drosihn Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 12:56 PM To: Bart Silverstrim; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!! At 8:00 AM -0500 2/11/05, Bart Silverstrim wrote: Just to sum up things as I understand it... People want to change the logo from Beastie to something else because Beastie isn't professional enough, so some committers decided to hold a contest for a new logo? We thought it would be nice, after fifteen years, to see if our much-larger user base has any interesting ideas for a new logo. That is putting the cart before the horse. What you need to do first is find out if our much-larger userbase WANTS a new logo. If they do, THEN try finding out if they have any interesting ideas for one. Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business would be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it? Businesses are stupid. People who demand dedicated allegiance to one single cartoon image are just as stupid. Both are facts, and neither is a late-breaking news item. The FreeBSD project is not a business. Someone said people change logos all the time. That's flat out wrong. When a company spends mucho dinero on marketing their logo, they don't just flip around and decide to change their logo that they spent so much money and time getting mindshare with. Have any examples of logos that have constantly changed? We do constantly see companies change their logo. That is not the same thing as saying any *one* company is constantly changing *its* logo. Apple has changed its logo. ATT changed its logo several times. GE recently changed its one-line motto. At one point, McDonalds rebuilt every one of their stores from the old golden-arches look to the newer family restaurant look -- and that cost a hell of a lot more than any logo change. All of those organizations are businesses. The FreeBSD Project is not. How is any of that applicable? Right now we're working with an image that was picked 15 years ago for a very small open-source project. Your working with an image that was first associated with UNIX in 1976, which is almost it's entire life. We now claim to be several orders of magnitude larger than that. I doubt there is *any* company who has stuck with it's original logo as it went from five guys running a hobby to millions of users. The FreeBSD Project is not a company. Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not by commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector? Is FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate marketing? Some of those volunteers would like to see a new logo. Others would not. The vast majority probably do not care at all. If you really believe that, then hold a vote on the issue don't just ASS-U-ME it. There is an online petition currently that says that quite a lot of the volunteers do indeed care. Somehow the ones who like the present logo seem to think they can simply dismiss all comments from the other volunteers who would like a new logo, as if the work done by THOSE volunteers is somehow irrelevant. Somehow the ones who dislike the present logo seem to think they can simply dismiss all comments from the other volunteers who would like to retain the old logo, as if the work done by THOSE volunteers is somehow irrelevant. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Anthony Atkielski Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 1:58 AM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as The problem is that this is the only behavior there is for the moment. There is no official support mechanism, and I daresay there is virtually no one who can do good formal presentations of the OS, either. Why is this a problem? Are you concerned with what our stockholders would say if they found out? Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: Why is this a problem? Are you concerned with what our stockholders would say if they found out? I'm concerned about the future of the OS if the user base dwindles. I think that potential users of the OS should be sought out and made aware of FreeBSD. It doesn't have to be a Major Media Event, but it should be an organized effort, not just a haphazard, ad hoc attempt. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Technically superior products WAS RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchasNetBSD!!!
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Anthony Atkielski Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 2:13 AM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchasNetBSD!!! Ted Mittelstaedt writes: Technically superior products are technically superior because they have MORE than the customary RD put into them. That makes them MORE expensive than the median/mediocre products that dominate a market. Explain Intel. Do you like giving me fish in a barrel or what? :-) Actually, I know you were making a joke. I did laugh. But this actually proves my point. Back in the olden days when the computer market still had the potential for accepting a better-but-radically different PC design, the Intel CPU family was pretty lame compared to many other designs (ie: Zilog Z80 for example) But, it was cheap. Today of course, there are only 2 CPU companies that matter, AMD and Intel. But, their products are completely tied to the current PC paradigm due to the absolute requirement for backwards compatability - and that absolute requirement exists because of the usual BINARY distribution of software. If you are willing to jettison that paradigm there are many far better and more exciting and more advanced CPU designs in the universities. Obviously since they have no economies of scale they would be horribly expensive. And since it's possible to get their performance with clusters of cheap, mediocre CPUs in commodity computers, the economics have pretty much dictated they will remain ideas only. One of these days if we are lucky, Open Source will prevail, and the day will come that for a program to support a completely different computer architecture, a simple recompile will be all that is needed. Since users will get source with the applications they get, doing this will be not impossible. At that time we may then see the computer hardware market go back to normal competition. But until then it is important to keep in mind that the computer desktop hardware market is in the middle of an anomaly. But, be afraid. The telephone handset market was in such the same anomaly for almost a century. Today we are seeing the beginnings of VoIP which may change the paradigm and reignight some real competition. But then again it may not. Television sets remained the same for about 40 years there also. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: What we don't want are a lot of the kinds of users that infest the Linx forums - people that pester, pester, pester for answers to questions in the manual, then once they figure out how to get what small item they want to work, they are never seen or heard from in those groups again. I think you'll find that such people are overwhelmingly desktop users. People building and running servers tend to be quite different. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Joshua Tinnin writes: I don't think you understand the history of FreeBSD. Many people who work at Yahoo! are committers, and their employer not only knows about this but encourages it. That's not good enough. The employer has to assign its copyrights as well, or waive the usual work-for-hire arrangement that is implicit for employees writing code within the scope of their work. Copyright does not enter the equation at all. What matters is the license. For instance: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~% head -35 /usr/src/contrib/openpam/include/security/openpam.h /*- * Copyright (c) 2002-2003 Networks Associates Technology, Inc. * All rights reserved. * * This software was developed for the FreeBSD Project by ThinkSec AS and * Network Associates Laboratories, the Security Research Division of * Network Associates, Inc. under DARPA/SPAWAR contract N66001-01-C-8035 * (CBOSS), as part of the DARPA CHATS research program. * * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions * are met: * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright *notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright *notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the *documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution. * 3. The name of the author may not be used to endorse or promote *products derived from this software without specific prior written *permission. * * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE AUTHOR AND CONTRIBUTORS ``AS IS'' AND * ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE * IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE * ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE * FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL * DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS * OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) * HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT * LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY * OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF * SUCH DAMAGE. * * $P4: //depot/projects/openpam/include/security/openpam.h#28 $ */ DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Ted Mittelstaedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: With BSD, the copyrights on it are held by the University of Berkeley and by the FreeBSD Project. No, they aren't. RTFS. Just a couple of examples: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~% grep -r 'Copyright.*Dag-Erling' /usr/src | wc -l 59 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~% grep -r 'Copyright.*Poul.Henning' /usr/src | wc -l 109 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~% grep -r 'Copyright.*Matt.*Dillon' /usr/src | wc -l 30 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~% grep -r 'Copyright.*Network.*Associates' /usr/src | wc -l 334 (about a third of the code in the latter category was written by yours truly under contract) DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: Copyright does not enter the equation at all. What matters is the license. Uh ... where there is no copyright, there is no license. Where there is a license, there is a copyright. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dag-Erling Smørgrav Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 3:12 AM To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Robert Marella; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Garance A Drosehn Subject: Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!! Ted Mittelstaedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: With BSD, the copyrights on it are held by the University of Berkeley and by the FreeBSD Project. No, they aren't. RTFS. Just a couple of examples: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~% grep -r 'Copyright.*Dag-Erling' /usr/src | wc -l 59 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~% grep -r 'Copyright.*Poul.Henning' /usr/src | wc -l 109 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~% grep -r 'Copyright.*Matt.*Dillon' /usr/src | wc -l 30 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~% grep -r 'Copyright.*Network.*Associates' /usr/src | wc -l 334 (about a third of the code in the latter category was written by yours truly under contract) OK, so I didn't go look at every little port and piece in the project. I was trying to dumb the explanation down for someone who was quite obviously totally clueless about the philosophy of the software he was using. It was not to denegrate any contribution that anyone has made. But this does point out that you people when you put your stuff into the distribution and you don't assign over the copyright to The FreeBSD Project, that you need to submit this to the documentation people so they can update http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/index.html I don't see why you are so proud of not doing this. Is it your intention to cause problems for companies that want to use FreeBSD in their products? This sort of thing is exactly what the chicken littles like Anthony are talking about. It isn't going to matter to some lawyer charged with vetting the code to make sure that using it in a company's project is OK, that your and the other's copyright is equivalent to the BSD one. He is going to see this and wonder why it wasn't disclosed in the docs where it should have been, and what else is being hidden. And in any case, if you want to get into this, the C compiler carries GPL without which it is impossible to build the OS, and as that copyright is fundamentally different than either the BSD copyrights, or the copyrights of yourself and the others listed, it is a much more serious issue and I don't understand why you didn't bring it up. Although, at least, it IS disclosed in the appropriate place on the website. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: I don't see why you are so proud of not doing this. Is it your intention to cause problems for companies that want to use FreeBSD in their products? This sort of thing is exactly what the chicken littles like Anthony are talking about. It surprises and worries me that anyone does it, for precisely the reasons that you describe. Should I ever contribute code to FreeBSD, I'll just assign the copyright, or release the code to the public domain. I have to wonder about the motivations of someone who says he wants to contribute to a Great Cause but then insists on retaining his copyright. Remember that in some jurisdictions, copyright reverts to the author after a certain number of years, no matter what he says to the contrary. This includes the U.S.; see 17 USC 203. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
On Saturday 12 February 2005 12:46, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Ted Mittelstaedt writes: I don't see why you are so proud of not doing this. Is it your intention to cause problems for companies that want to use FreeBSD in their products? This sort of thing is exactly what the chicken littles like Anthony are talking about. It surprises and worries me that anyone does it, for precisely the reasons that you describe. Should I ever contribute code to FreeBSD, I'll just assign the copyright, or release the code to the public domain. I have to wonder about the motivations of someone who says he wants to contribute to a Great Cause but then insists on retaining his copyright. Remember that in some jurisdictions, copyright reverts to the author after a certain number of years, no matter what he says to the contrary. This includes the U.S.; see 17 USC 203. from the mailling list info :- freebsd-chatNon-technical items related to the FreeBSD community freebsd-questions User questions and technical support I think it should be clear where this conversation belongs. The issues you are discussing are emphatically non-technical. Please? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as
Agreed, but have you never inherited control over a system with hardware you did not purchase? Yup, but I've simply not gotten unsupported hardware. In the many computers I've tried, not a single piece of hardware unsupported, from network cards to raid cards, wireless and video, serial cards and etc... Growth is a natural thing. If we have 2% of the market and we grow 5% but the market grows 20%, we loose share. Vendors look at the market. We need to capture a larger share to make them sit up and take notice. Right, but since the key to our advertisement is the exclusivity of who hears about us, we'd be getting the finest 2% available, and I, for one, am plenty happy with that. I'm perfectly content with the 2% that understand that closed-source, proprietary, sub-standard operating systems are inferior regardless of how large their userbase is. -- If I write a signature, my emails will appear more personalised. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as
On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:27:21 +0100, Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Eric Kjeldergaard writes: Actually, I haven't. I have, but mainly with hardware that I would normally use only on the desktop. I ended up connecting it to Windows instead. FreeBSD has good support for hardware that you'd use on a server--better than that provided by Windows. In some cases (my IBM Thinkpad, for example) it has better support for my portable desktop system than windows also. In fact, FreeBSD is the ONLY operating system that fully supported my hardware with nothing but the install cd required. -- If I write a signature, my emails will appear more personalised. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Ted Mittelstaedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't see why you are so proud of not doing this. Is it your intention to cause problems for companies that want to use FreeBSD in their products? This sort of thing is exactly what the chicken littles like Anthony are talking about. It isn't going to matter to some lawyer charged with vetting the code to make sure that using it in a company's project is OK, that your and the other's copyright is equivalent to the BSD one. He is going to see this and wonder why it wasn't disclosed in the docs where it should have been, and what else is being hidden. You need to understand the difference between copyright and license, and stop looking for black helicopters. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 23:12 -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: Why in the world should I expect to be able to vote on whether a new logo is adopted or not? I will tell you exactly why and it is one of the most exciting reasons to use FreeBSD. mucho snipo It is EVERYONE WHO CONTRIBUTES ANYTHING TO FREEBSD. You, me, anyone who wants to be involved in the FreeBSD Project, all you need to do is start contributing and YOU ARE IN IT!!! Thus, FREEBSD BELONGS TO YOU!! That's, right YOU!! Your a member of the FreeBSD Project - you are one of the owners of the FreeBSD code. That's it, simple as that. So, of course you should have a vote. Ted Let me be the first to nominate Ted as the ballot magistrate. He will decide who gets to vote by how they have committed to the project. Unless he wants to open it up to every man, woman, and child who has access to the internet. I guess then we wouldn't need a magistrate. Robert ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: Copyright does not enter the equation at all. What matters is the license. Uh ... where there is no copyright, there is no license. Where there is a license, there is a copyright. Are you intentionally misinterpreting me? It does not matter who holds the copyright as long as the work is distributed under the right kind of license. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It surprises and worries me that anyone does it, for precisely the reasons that you describe. Should I ever contribute code to FreeBSD, I'll just assign the copyright To whom? The FreeBSD project is not a legal entity. or release the code to the public domain. That is a very bad idea, because you can't disclaim liability for work which you release in the public domain. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Bart Silverstrim wrote: On Feb 11, 2005, at 2:18 AM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Ted Mittelstaedt writes: That is so not true that it makes me almost as angry as the original debate. Maybe getting angry about a mere logo is a bad sign. Just to sum up things as I understand it... People want to change the logo from Beastie to something else because Beastie isn't professional enough, so some committers decided to hold a contest for a new logo? Not really. Someone found a draft of a document suggesting a contest, that was not meant to be published (yet?) and then all hell broke loss. Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business would be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it? Would you care if a business were that dumb...would you actually *want* them using it? Its not that simple. Several times I have seen very intelligent and competent administrators that would love to run BSD be forced to install linux just because the management of their company liked linux better. A business is rarely stupid, but the people that run the business may often have their priorities messed up. Someone said people change logos all the time. That's flat out wrong. When a company spends mucho dinero on marketing their logo, they don't just flip around and decide to change their logo that they spent so much money and time getting mindshare with. Have any examples of logos that have constantly changed? As posten elsewhere in this thread: http://www.bellsystemmemorial.com/bell_logos.html Times and trends change, companies that wants to survive do to. Windows' logo isn't even a logo. It's a flag of a window pane falling apart in the breeze. I associate windows with broken glass. These things don't seem to hinder Windows from getting massive market share. Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not by commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector? Is FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate marketing? I sincerely hope not. But superior technology does not mean we cant be good at marketing too. And seriously, would FreeBSD suffer from a better logo? Would it make it less technology driven? Even if the logo was picture of someones ass, I would still use FreeBSD. If the logo was a superior and beatiful incarnation of everything a logo should be, that would not change my mind either. Or is this all some sneaky way of saying that Beastie is too much like the Devil and this new logo contest is a way to slip out the connotative Beastie with some other more politically correct symbol, like the drive in American classrooms for Intelligent Design to be taught in science classes (It's not Creationism! It's not Creationism! It's *science*...) There are so many reasons beside religious ones why Beastie is a bad logo I dont even know where to start. It looks bad in print. Its expensive to print. It does not look like something an advanced OS would use as logo. Its hard to reproduce. On the other hand, its almost perfect as a mascot, which is a very different thing from a logo. Just asking, since I was largely ignoring the thread but got curious after so MANY posts were made about the topic. Seems to be a hot topic. Which it wouldnt be if 90% of the posters to this thread didnt missunderstand the whole idea. -- R ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: -Original Message- From: Garance A Drosehn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 1:59 PM To: Ted Mittelstaedt; freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!! And frankly, most FreeBSD commiters do not read the -advocacy or -questions mailing lists (I never read advocacy, for instance). So maybe only three or four committers have explicitly expressed support for a LOGO CONTEST. Are you just too dense to understand that supporting a logo contest automatically implies that you are unsatisfied with the current logo? If you like Beastie why on earth would you want a contest to replace him? I like Beastie! I wear shirts with Beastie! I have a 45cm tall sticker of Beastie on the front of my fridge, clearly visible to anyone that enters my appartment. I have Powered by FreeBSD stickers sporting Beastie on my laptop. I have Beastie as screensaver and as desktop background. Still, Im not to dense to realize that there is a need for a new logo. You, on the other hand, seem to be to dense* to realize the difference between a logo and a mascot. For the last time, it is not the contest that I and others are objecting to. It is what you intend to do with the results of the contest - that is, replace Beastie. Not replace. Complement. Some people would be extremely helped by a more proffesional looking logo. Therefor, the idea was put forward to complement Beastie with a logo useable in the commercial world. (Actually, the idea was never presented, it was drafted and then leaked before finished). This would mean that the people that likes Beastie can continue using it, while the people needing a more proffesional logo would also see their needs fullfilled. However, some people does not need a new logo, and they seem to fight furiously to stop a change that basically would not affect them at all. I simply fail to understand their stand in this. -- R * When I call you dense I do not seriously mean to question your intelligence. I respect you as the author of a very good book and I value your contributions to the community as well as your opinions, but in this matter I just find it impossible to understand your point of view. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 4:51 PM, Peter Risdon wrote: On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 15:56 -0500, Garance A Drosihn wrote: At 8:00 AM -0500 2/11/05, Bart Silverstrim wrote: [...] Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not by commercial matters, FreeBSD is a commercially viable operating system. I happen to think it's the best server OS there is - for businesses. This thread has made it seem, sometimes, as though the touch of commerce is anathema, which is silly. As I understand it, the support of commercial organisations is vital to the project. If you want a project that pisses on its sponsors, there's always OpenBSD. I didn't say it wasn't commercially viable. What I said was that it was driven by the volunteers. Commercial support isn't being pissed on. BUT it can easily taint it when a commercial sponsor goes from *just* supporting to saying they'll support more if...and more if this...and that...oh, and you don't want that person over there on the commit list because he's not a team player. And yes, I'm overdramatizing to try to make a point. If they want to support it, that's great. But the thing I don't want to see (and I hope others don't want to see) is FreeBSD starting to have it's priorities driven by commercial interests or a group of people who want to mess with something solely because it's not their definition of politically correct. The difference between driven by volunteers and driven by commercial interests is that commercial interests will cater to the user and give them what they want. The volunteers give them what they need. What they want yields products like Windows, so hobbled by bandages and bandaids for backward compatibility and security breaches to support their ease of use mantra that it is...well...crappy for use anywhere but the desktop. What they need yields servers that are reliable and robust and minimize unscheduled downtime. suddenly gain a marketing department that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector? You mean it isn't in the business sector? It's just for geeks to put on their home computers? Somebody ought to mention that to Yahoo. And let's hope nobody who is having FreeBSD pitched to them as a viable server OS for their business reads that remark as they google. Again, never said it wasn't. It was well made and it HAPPENED TO BE perfectly viable for that use. It was never a group of people who sat down and said, How can we build this OS to serve Yahoo's customers the best? Never read the remark that there's an ulterior motive behind the creation of FreeBSD, that it was aimed for businesses? My impression was that it was created to be a good server OS. Use it or don't. It doesn't need businesses to survive, but if they use it they'd be better off. It was untainted by business politics and marketing tripe. FreeBSD and Linux were examples of what happens when marketers stay OUT of the core process of delivering the project and the geeks using and developing the OS told users that if they wanted a feature, they might put it in...maybe not. Don't like it, you can do it yourself. Is this the best approach? Probably not. But it's how it came to this point. If marketing led FreeBSD's goals now, you'd have an OS that would require three times the RAM, twice the disk space, Ports would have a front end tool that's entirely GUI driven, the OS would have more services by default, and it would always install and boot to a GUI based on GNOME or KDE...because it friendlier and more marketable that way. Is FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate marketing? What changes would a logo require of the underlying technology of FreeBSD? That's just rhetoric. It doesn't. The question was, is FreeBSD starting to have Some of those volunteers would like to see a new logo. Others would not. The vast majority probably do not care at all. Somehow the ones who like the present logo seem to think they can simply dismiss all comments from the other volunteers who would like a new logo, as if the work done by THOSE volunteers is somehow irrelevant. I haven't noticed anyone suggest that Beastie be banished, just that a proper logo might be appropriate now. Here's a suggestion: Beastie stays as the mascot. People use it as and when they wish, subject to conditions which are at the discretion of a private individual and not the FreeBSD project. And there's a new logo, as opposed to mascot, if the competition throws up one people like. This distinction has been being made more and more; change logo, not mascot. I think what got people's hackles in a bind was that there has been periodic discussion over changing or altering the mascot because it's too satanic. He's evil! You're debbil worshippers! This periodic infringement of religion on geek territory...the mascot that has come to represent what many people have donated significant portions of
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such asNetBSD!!!
On Saturday 12 February 2005 02:07 am, Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ted Mittelstaedt writes: The committers do know about this and are careful about it. You will note that this is discussed more fully here: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributing/co ntrib- how.html under the section: New Code or Major Value-Added Packages I am very surprised that you missed this. Could it be made any more obvious? Yes, it could be made about a thousand times more obvious. It should be right on the first page of the site, not buried in the documentation. And it is still a bit worrisome, because it says When working with large amounts of code, the touchy subject of copyrights also invariably comes up. Unfortunately, copyright applies to small amounts of code, too, not just large amounts. Even a few lines can lead to litigation if the copyright status of those lines is not verified and cleared before they are incorporated into the product. I think it's great that you're volunteering to do this. Keep us updated on your status! - jt ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: You need to understand the difference between copyright and license, and stop looking for black helicopters. There isn't any difference. Without copyrights, there are no licenses; without licenses, there are no copyrights. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as
On Saturday 12 February 2005 01:58 am, Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: This is all very well and good, but is irrelevant to the earlier discussion. It doesn't have to be relevant to the earlier discussion. It is very highly relevant to FreeBSD. You are not a Suit we are trying to impress or get to use FreeBSD. You are on a general technical support mailing list and behavior here is different than would be in a formal presentation or even official support mechanism. The problem is that this is the only behavior there is for the moment. There is no official support mechanism, and I daresay there is virtually no one who can do good formal presentations of the OS, either. I see that you've volunteered your efforts once again in an area you found lacking. Good work! I look forward to seeing your efforts here, too. - jt ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: Are you intentionally misinterpreting me? No, I'm correcting you. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: To whom? The FreeBSD project is not a legal entity. Then I can release it to the public domain. That is a very bad idea, because you can't disclaim liability for work which you release in the public domain. Whether you retain or relinquish the copyright has no effect on your liability. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as
Joshua Tinnin writes: I see that you've volunteered your efforts once again in an area you found lacking. Not in this area, although I did volunteer some DTP work. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Anthony Atkielski wrote: Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: You need to understand the difference between copyright and license, and stop looking for black helicopters. There isn't any difference. Without copyrights, there are no licenses; without licenses, there are no copyrights. A = copyright, B = license. A != B. If this still does not make it clear, go look up the words or talk to somebody who knows the difference and is willing to explain it to you. Until then, your comments resemble someone who is color-blind explaining that there is no difference between red and green to people who possess normal sight. For all of the sound and fury of these threads, I don't see any code being written, any PRs being filed, or any technical questions being asked. Please use chat or advocacy. -- -Chuck PS: I want a pony, too! ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Chuck Swiger writes: A = copyright, B = license. A != B. A license is limited permission to use copyrighted material. A copyright is the right to restrict the use of material without a license. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
At 2:06 AM -0800 2/12/05, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: For the last time, it is not the contest that I and others are objecting to. I am glad to hear that this message was the last time you mention it. Thanks. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Programmer or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY; USA ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Friday 11 February 2005 12:31 am, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: There can be only ONE 'flagship' logo just as there is only one company name in a conglomerate. But there is plenty of space for different subsidiary marks for the product. For example, Chevrolet, Buick, Saturn, these are all part of General Motors. However they have their own distinct brands and logos and such. But, there is only ONE name for the company - GM - that is used when talking about the -entire- enchalada. Heh... This gives me an idea... How about FreeBSD skins. The Beastie as the default (of course), and dis_ey-type themes for the weak in the faith. If FreeBSD's attempt is not to be offensive to anyone, anywhere, anytime, then perhaps it just needs to jump into a different skin for everybody (corporate or otherwise) it serves... Perhaps a questionare to be filled out in the beginnings of sysinstall would let the system know what is to be considered appropriate. (hey... anythings possible) :) Mike ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchasNetBSD!!!
On Thursday 10 February 2005 11:38 pm, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dick Davies Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:10 PM To: FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchasNetBSD!!! * Ted Mittelstaedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] [0255 08:55]: Yep, I was wondering how long it would take before someone figured this one out. We know the real rea$on$ that this logo change is being contemplated, don't we. You seem to think you do, certainly. Why don't you ask core instead of reading their minds? Why should I when Robert Watson made the following quote in Advocacy: We'd like to get a logo we can provide to companies that are willing to stick it on their products as supporting FreeBSD Explain how this has nothing to do with money, please? Ted I thought it referred to FreeBSD driver support in retail products. Sure, it means the companies will get more of my money because there would be more compatible hardware that's easy to identify. It does not necessarily equate to money for FreeBSD developers, however. Andrew Gould ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Mike Hauber writes: Heh... This gives me an idea... How about FreeBSD skins. The Beastie as the default (of course), and dis_ey-type themes for the weak in the faith. If FreeBSD's attempt is not to be offensive to anyone, anywhere, anytime, then perhaps it just needs to jump into a different skin for everybody (corporate or otherwise) it serves... Perhaps a questionare to be filled out in the beginnings of sysinstall would let the system know what is to be considered appropriate. This sort of idea betrays the geek atmosphere that pervades FreeBSD and many other open-source efforts. It might please geeks installing the OS, but it only makes it look like a toy to people who are installing it for serious use. Nobody sitting in a machine room in front of a rack of servers is going to care anything about skins. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo
Anthony Atkielski wrote: Personally, I wonder how FreeBSD survives based exclusively on volunteer efforts. It's a noble idea, but in the real world, things cost money, and people need to earn a living. Something that survives exclusively from the kindness of strangers leads a fragile existence. No, this is wrong - you're just piling up arguments for your case. If the case is money you should also care about positioning and not splitting the eyeballs. And if there'll ever be a really simple logo like red dot, red heart or plain FreeBSD name, where will you hide chuck from concernig citizens? -- Regards, Karel Miklav ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchasNetBSD!!!
* Ted Mittelstaedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] [0238 05:38]: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dick Davies Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:10 PM To: FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchasNetBSD!!! * Ted Mittelstaedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] [0255 08:55]: Yep, I was wondering how long it would take before someone figured this one out. We know the real rea$on$ that this logo change is being contemplated, don't we. You seem to think you do, certainly. Why don't you ask core instead of reading their minds? Why should I when Robert Watson made the following quote in Advocacy: Because Robert Watson is'nt involved. Also then maybe this thread would die. -- 'Yeah, well I'm gonna build my own themepark! With blackjack aaand Hookers! Actually, forget the park. And the blackjack.' -- Bender Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 2:18 AM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Ted Mittelstaedt writes: That is so not true that it makes me almost as angry as the original debate. Maybe getting angry about a mere logo is a bad sign. Just to sum up things as I understand it... People want to change the logo from Beastie to something else because Beastie isn't professional enough, so some committers decided to hold a contest for a new logo? Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business would be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it? Would you care if a business were that dumb...would you actually *want* them using it? Someone said people change logos all the time. That's flat out wrong. When a company spends mucho dinero on marketing their logo, they don't just flip around and decide to change their logo that they spent so much money and time getting mindshare with. Have any examples of logos that have constantly changed? Windows' logo isn't even a logo. It's a flag of a window pane falling apart in the breeze. I associate windows with broken glass. These things don't seem to hinder Windows from getting massive market share. Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not by commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector? Is FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate marketing? Or is this all some sneaky way of saying that Beastie is too much like the Devil and this new logo contest is a way to slip out the connotative Beastie with some other more politically correct symbol, like the drive in American classrooms for Intelligent Design to be taught in science classes (It's not Creationism! It's not Creationism! It's *science*...) Just asking, since I was largely ignoring the thread but got curious after so MANY posts were made about the topic. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such asNetBSD!!!
Oliver Leitner wrote: alot of discussions going on the past 48 hours about this topic, i guess there is alot of room for explanations left, that ppls want to hear, why not give the ppls that actually stand behind FreeBSD and behind the logo contest or whatever it is a chance to tell us what they where thinking about when they started the contest? also id like to know, *is* FreeBSD now coperate, like the previous poster tried to point out, or do we still have the bsd license here? I wasnt really trying to make the point, but it does almost seem that way. I guess I'm not using the right words. More exposure to the corporate world. Maybe thats a little better. __ Frank Laszlo System Administrator The VonOstin Group Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW:http://www.vonostingroup.com Mobile: 248-863-7584 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Bart Silverstrim wrote: Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business would be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it? Would you care if a business were that dumb...would you actually *want* them using it? The problem (from my point of view) really has a lot more to do with having to communicate about an OS after it is selected, rather than the act of selection (which is rightly based on technical merit). I need to communicate about ongoing server operations with boards of trustees, with my immediate customers, and indirectly with their customers. I can't use Beastie in these discussions because I can't afford the time to explain the multiple inside jokes re: daemon/demon, the tennis shoes, etc., over and over and over again, and I really, really can't afford to lose a debate about FreeBSD's appropriateness. While the amusing subtleties embodied in the Beatie emblem are indeed endearing to the IT community, they are a serious *drag* when communicating to the less clueful. Windows' logo isn't even a logo. It's a flag of a window pane falling apart in the breeze. I associate windows with broken glass. These things don't seem to hinder Windows from getting massive market share. My board of directors never looked at the Windows logo and said What the f#$% is that!?. Argue all you like about the fact that people need to be more open and clueful, and how precious Beatie's legacy is (I agree it is), the bottom line is that some rather important people aren't very clueful, and many of them can't ever be expected to be clueful, and I don't have time to educate dozens of people every time I want to compare our organization's use of various OS flavors. So, I limit myself to indicating FreeBSD by text only, and I know that the impact of that on the decision makers is somewhat lower than if I had a stylin' graphic suitable for use in official communications like uptime graphs, scope of use, service dependencies, project activities, etc. OK, so now maybe I expect some flamage about bein' chicken, not standing up for what's right, etc. Well, horse hockey. I have a duty to my employer not to waste everyone's time with the deamon/demon discussion (over and over and over again). It would be one thing if we could do it once and get it over with, but that is clearly not the case. -- Greg Barniskis, Computer Systems Integrator South Central Library System (SCLS) Library Interchange Network (LINK) gregb at scls.lib.wi.us, (608) 266-6348 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Imagine Linux dropping Tux for some meanlingless, lifeless logo? I'm glad you asked. Tux is a mascot, not a logo. These are Linux logos: http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topiccaldera.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicdebian.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicmandrake.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicredhat.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicsuse.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicturbolinux.gif The image that is sometimes used as an all-round Linux logo is not just Tux, but rather a particular representation of Tux in combination with a logotype and an orange splash. The author of that logo is clearly aware of the distinction between a logo and a mascot: http://www-mddsp.enel.ucalgary.ca/People/adilger/logo/ Likewise, Beastie is a mascot, not a logo. In fact, it fails the primary and most important test of logoness: it is not exclusive to the FreeBSD project, but is shared by all BSD projects. It also fails several other important tests of logoness: it is not under the FreeBSD project's direct control (our use of it is subject to the whim and mercy of Kirk McKusick); it is not a registered trademark; it is probably too diluted already to even be eligible to be registered as a trademark. This does not even begin to consider the technical aspects (ease of reproduction, scalability, representability in monochrome, recognizability under different and sometimes difficult conditions, etc.) Here's a page (a NetBSD logo contest entry) which addresses many of these concerns, and coincidentally underlines my point about the daemon not being exclusive to FreeBSD: http://homepage.mac.com/codesamurai/netbsd-logo-entry/ (this is so good I'm surprised NetBSD didn't adopt it, and I'd love to see it submitted to the FreeBSD logo contest) DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On 02/11/05 09:52 AM, Anthony Atkielski sat at the `puter and typed: Mike Hauber writes: Heh... This gives me an idea... How about FreeBSD skins. The Beastie as the default (of course), and dis_ey-type themes for the weak in the faith. If FreeBSD's attempt is not to be offensive to anyone, anywhere, anytime, then perhaps it just needs to jump into a different skin for everybody (corporate or otherwise) it serves... Perhaps a questionare to be filled out in the beginnings of sysinstall would let the system know what is to be considered appropriate. This sort of idea betrays the geek atmosphere that pervades FreeBSD and many other open-source efforts. It might please geeks installing the OS, but it only makes it look like a toy to people who are installing it for serious use. Nobody sitting in a machine room in front of a rack of servers is going to care anything about skins. They why would they care *what* the logo is? Those of us that use FreeBSD every day on our desktops for 99.999% of everything we do on a computer of any kind would be more likely to have an opinion. Which should also be obvious by the length of this and at least one other thread on the subject here on questions alone. I haven't even checked on advocacy. I'm just going to say this. I use FreeBSD for EVERYTHING I do until I'm forced to open a word doc someone else will have to edit and see. I know there are alternatives, but they don't seem to have some of the features needed for the stuff I get at work. Regardless, I never had a problem with Beastie. I like him. He is the only mascot/logo/whatever associated with an OS (other than the window) that is actually relevant. What the hell does a penguin have to do with Linux? What does a red hat have to do, except to repeat the name? Even Puffy isn't really relevant except to try to represent the security features -why not an armadillo? Even when I was a spiritual and faithful Catholic, I never had a problem with Beastie. I know that christians buy Deviled Ham every day, watch the Blue Devils play football or whatever it is they do, and use Red Devil paints and caulking to winterize their houses, and don't think twice, but now Beastie is coming under fire because he's red, has horns and a tail and a fork. Must be Satan. Therefore people that love FreeBSD love Satan. That's logic. I don't think I have the energy to keep posting to this thread. I have other things to deal with. I'm just going to restate my opinion here one last time. There were obviously some assumptions made about the intentions of the core group. Most, if not all were probably wrong. At least about the way they were planning this whole contest. I don't think anyone ever intended to doubt the fact they are genuinely interested in nothing more than spreading FreeBSD and it's welfare. The more people that use it the better appreciated they'll feel. Perfectly reasonable. I suspect that whether they are right or wrong about Beasties impact on the spread is the only issue at hand. Beastie is relevant, he's well liked by those that understand him. There is no good reason to remove him. You want to build a multi faced distribution with skins, go right ahead. Contrary to the previous post, I don't think I'd really have any problem with it. Just don't remove the beastie images from the distribution, and don't make it a pain in the ass to keep him in the boot screen. I know there will be plenty of people that disagree, but these are my opinions and I'm sticking with them. No, not blindly. Maybe I'm just not business savvy, but I never set out to be. I *have* my reasons for wanting the look of FreeBSD to stay the same, and they're not based on other peoples sensitivities, beliefs or hysteria. Just let me know if the beastie shirts go on sale. I'll stock up. Lou -- Louis LeBlanc FreeBSD-at-keyslapper-DOT-net Fully Funded Hobbyist, KeySlapper Extrordinaire :) Please send off-list email to: leblanc at keyslapper d.t net Key fingerprint = C5E7 4762 F071 CE3B ED51 4FB8 AF85 A2FE 80C8 D9A2 Cahn's Axiom: When all else fails, read the instructions. pgpymdtHoZBtT.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: Here's a page (a NetBSD logo contest entry) which addresses many of these concerns, and coincidentally underlines my point about the daemon not being exclusive to FreeBSD: http://homepage.mac.com/codesamurai/netbsd-logo-entry/ That is not bad. But is it sufficiently different from the original Beastie that it is not burdened with being a derivative worK in terms of copyright? Understanding that this distinction cannot be really certain except as a consequence of litigation on that point, the underlying question is Do you really want to go there?. I suppose the solution to the potential ambiguity for this or any other comparable logo would be to get McKusick to sign off on it in some formal way, indicating that is not Beastie. -- Greg Barniskis, Computer Systems Integrator South Central Library System (SCLS) Library Interchange Network (LINK) gregb at scls.lib.wi.us, (608) 266-6348 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:53:17 -0600 Greg Barniskis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bart Silverstrim wrote: Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business would be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it? Would you care if a business were that dumb...would you actually *want* them using it? The problem (from my point of view) really has a lot more to do with having to communicate about an OS after it is selected, rather than the act of selection (which is rightly based on technical merit). I need to communicate about ongoing server operations with boards of trustees, with my immediate customers, and indirectly with their customers. I can't use Beastie in these discussions because I can't afford the time to explain the multiple inside jokes re: daemon/demon, the tennis shoes, etc., over and over and over again, and I really, really can't afford to lose a debate about FreeBSD's appropriateness. While the amusing subtleties embodied in the Beatie emblem are indeed endearing to the IT community, they are a serious *drag* when communicating to the less clueful. Windows' logo isn't even a logo. It's a flag of a window pane falling apart in the breeze. I associate windows with broken glass. These things don't seem to hinder Windows from getting massive market share. My board of directors never looked at the Windows logo and said What the f#$% is that!?. Argue all you like about the fact that people need to be more open and clueful, and how precious Beatie's legacy is (I agree it is), the bottom line is that some rather important people aren't very clueful, and many of them can't ever be expected to be clueful, and I don't have time to educate dozens of people every time I want to compare our organization's use of various OS flavors. So, I limit myself to indicating FreeBSD by text only, and I know that the impact of that on the decision makers is somewhat lower than if I had a stylin' graphic suitable for use in official communications like uptime graphs, scope of use, service dependencies, project activities, etc. OK, so now maybe I expect some flamage about bein' chicken, not standing up for what's right, etc. Well, horse hockey. I have a duty to my employer not to waste everyone's time with the deamon/demon discussion (over and over and over again). It would be one thing if we could do it once and get it over with, but that is clearly not the case. I think that exactly the need Core is trying to address along with addressing the mechanics of logo (not mascot) reproduction. Its been my experience that the corporate suits get the perception of teenage hacker from the cartoonish mascots. Truth or not, perception is what matters and we do need something a bit more mature and professional. Whether or not I like the mascot is beside the point entirely. I want to see FreeBSD grow and penetrate new market areas. I fully expect things to change to accomodate this and support Core's decisions. I hope others can get past their emotional reactions and approach this from a practical standpoint. There's been far too much discussion and speculation about all this. Just wait for the official announcement. The draft of the contest announcement did not necessarily indicate what will be in the final document. Nap -- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 8:53 AM, Greg Barniskis wrote: Bart Silverstrim wrote: Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business would be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it? Would you care if a business were that dumb...would you actually *want* them using it? The problem (from my point of view) really has a lot more to do with having to communicate about an OS after it is selected, rather than the act of selection (which is rightly based on technical merit). I need to communicate about ongoing server operations with boards of trustees, with my immediate customers, and indirectly with their customers. I can't use Beastie in these discussions because I can't afford the time to explain the multiple inside jokes re: daemon/demon, the tennis shoes, etc., over and over and over again, and I really, really can't afford to lose a debate about FreeBSD's appropriateness. While the amusing subtleties embodied in the Beatie emblem are indeed endearing to the IT community, they are a serious *drag* when communicating to the less clueful. I suppose if my employers were that close in resemblance to the PHB in Dilbert, I'd probably just not use the logo and use some text version of the OS name. That is, if they care enough to question it. My employers don't know anything about our servers, and they don't care to know about them either, so they don't question it; just my immediate supervisor cares enough to know about the situation. Maybe as an experiment I should introduce the logo sometime to the administrative staff to see if they question it. I'm missing the part about the tennis shoes though. I didn't realize that was part of the joke...? :-) Windows' logo isn't even a logo. It's a flag of a window pane falling apart in the breeze. I associate windows with broken glass. These things don't seem to hinder Windows from getting massive market share. My board of directors never looked at the Windows logo and said What the f#$% is that!?. Argue all you like about the fact that people need to be more open and clueful, and how precious Beatie's legacy is (I agree it is), the bottom line is that some rather important people aren't very clueful, and many of them can't ever be expected to be clueful, and I don't have time to educate dozens of people every time I want to compare our organization's use of various OS flavors. So, I limit myself to indicating FreeBSD by text only, and I know that the impact of that on the decision makers is somewhat lower than if I had a stylin' graphic suitable for use in official communications like uptime graphs, scope of use, service dependencies, project activities, etc. I suppose you could always migrate to OpenBSD. I always liked the blowfish. My personal approach if stuck without a cluebat would be to just make something up just for your presentations. If you honestly think they are going to run into FreeBSD info out there on the in-tar-net, they're GOING to get exposed to the evil devil like being. And that logo, like it or not, is going to continue floating around out there. It can't be pushed aside like some dark family secret. Most clueless management have interest spans regarding technology that lasts about as long as the meeting in which they're exposed to the forbidden information. Get the McDonald's logo or get a picture of a stack of pancakes and use that for your presentation. I doubt they'd care about the difference. Why have the world bend to the will of the minority to please a couple PHBs? That's thinking like a PHB... OK, so now maybe I expect some flamage about bein' chicken, not standing up for what's right, etc. Well, horse hockey. I have a duty to my employer not to waste everyone's time with the deamon/demon discussion (over and over and over again). It would be one thing if we could do it once and get it over with, but that is clearly not the case. If it's your duty not to waste their time with daemon/demon (etc), why are you bringing it up? Oh, you mean THEY are bringing it it up. After you already explained it. So THEY're the problem, since they aren't listening and remembering. AND they're wasting your time by having you review the material again and rehash issues regarding a *logo* instead of what the meeting is supposed to be about? Just checking. Your duty should be to answer their questions and go over pertinent information for the presentation. If they want to know about it *again*, give them the info. If they keep forgetting, print up a pamphlet. There may already be stuff at the FreeBSD advocacy sites ready to print. -- Greg Barniskis, Computer Systems Integrator South Central Library System (SCLS) Library Interchange Network (LINK) gregb at scls.lib.wi.us, (608) 266-6348 You work in a library and yet they don't want to be educated. I always found that ironic. The best way to punish educated people? Make them read. I found that
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchasNetBSD!!!
On 02/10/05 10:30 PM, Ted Mittelstaedt sat at the `puter and typed: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Louis LeBlanc Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 7:59 AM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchasNetBSD!!! Those technical criteria were NOT drawn out in community fashion. They forgot one very important thing: The logo must be historically significant. That bit about not offending anyone is bullshit plain and simple. I for one think this whole PC movement is bull. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for peoples right to live their lives, but the PC movement should have died exactly two days after it started. Louis, There is a difference between deliberately making people feel bad and offending people. The PC movement originally started with the noble idea that people should not try to deliberately make other people unhappy. This idea works very well with young children, and I must admit that I agree with it. I disagree. That's just good education. The PC movement was a social requirement to analyze every thing you say lest someone find a way to be offended by it. It did masquerad as a formalization of the idea, but the idea that you shouldn't deliberately make other people feel bad was certainly around 37 years ago when Mr. and Mrs. LeBlanc brought their son home from the hospital. I suspect it was around long before then. My 5 year old never needed to be told or taught not to hurt others' feelings. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. She, however, becomes quite upset when she's told - however gently - that she's just done or said something offensive. That's the way children are when their parents take a real interest early on. All we did is make her aware of her own natural empathy. She'd probably be a doormat if we really tried to bring that out. The problem is that when certain individuals get older, they start to believe that when someone does something that they don't approve of, that has no effect on their lives in any way, shape or form, that somehow it hurts them. For example Ashcroft was certain that when 2 gays somewhere got married, that he suffered personal injury. It is these people who have perverted the PC doctorine into something along the lines of well you 2 fags are getting married only to get me so upset that I cannot ever get an erection again, so I'm justified in taking a club to you and beating your brains in I couldn't possibly agree more. PC became into the new fundamentalism; it was used primarily as a social weapon instead of a teaching paradigm. Zero Tolerance is the new one. Beastie became the FreeBSD Project's logo for many reasons, liking it was only one of them. However never at any time did this happen just to spite fundies. Nor does use of this logo affect fundies on a personal level, they aren't required to look at it if they run FreeBSD, nor are they required to talk about it. Therefore it is a perversion of the politically correct doctorine for fundies to claim that use of Beastie isn't politically correct. It is just like the breastfeeding in public debate. It is a sad state of affairs in this country today when states have had to pass laws (like NY did) that specifically permit a woman to flop out her tit to feed a hungry child, because the fundies think that seeing a tit somehow harms them. Agreed. It's just hard to see people understanding how the backlash from these societal errors could translate into a fervent wish to keep a little red dude with horns and a tail on your computer. Other than these, I have to admit that the best reason I have for keeping him is that I like him and he's too ingrained to ever really be removed anyway. The business reasons in favor of changing him just don't make sense, but I have seen companies do better after a logo change. The social reasons just piss me off - possibly for no good reason. So, do you draw the line in the sand here, or just step back? I've drawn my lines before, and most of the time I'm *made* to step back. Every time you draw another line, you get more fanatical or more tired. If you rankle over the lines you've drawn in the past, you get more fanatical. Otherwise those lines start to make less sense and you just get tired and start accepting the ideals you drew lines against. Lou -- Louis LeBlanc FreeBSD-at-keyslapper-DOT-net Fully Funded Hobbyist, KeySlapper Extrordinaire :) Please send off-list email to: leblanc at keyslapper d.t net Key fingerprint = C5E7 4762 F071 CE3B ED51 4FB8 AF85 A2FE 80C8 D9A2 One can't proceed from the informal to the formal by formal means. pgpNSwxGxswcC.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
* Bart Silverstrim [EMAIL PROTECTED] [0201 13:01]: On Feb 11, 2005, at 2:18 AM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Ted Mittelstaedt writes: That is so not true that it makes me almost as angry as the original debate. Maybe getting angry about a mere logo is a bad sign. Just to sum up things as I understand it... People want to change the logo from Beastie to something else because Beastie isn't professional enough, so some committers decided to hold a contest for a new logo? Let me correct you there. This is what happened. Someone wanted a logo in addition to beastie. Someone got the wrong end of the stick. Everyone with an opinion decided to tell everyone it. -- 'My life, and by extension everyone else's, is meaningless.' -- Bender Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
People want to change the logo from Beastie to something else because Beastie isn't professional enough, so some committers decided to hold a contest for a new logo? As an artist here is how I see it: Beastie is a mascot, not a logo. It's like having Disney with a Mickey Mouse. The logo is either the word Disney in that very distinct font, or the black ears. The mascot can be part of the logo but not always; in the Disney example it's derived from it (this approach could work with Beastie). Another example is monster.com, that also has a distinct mascot and a logo (don't like the logo, just pointing it out). So the logo contest could use beastie in some interesting way: framed, simplified, stylized, vectorized, etc. In other words made into a real logo from the cartoon character. By stylize I mean for example what the fox looks like in the firefox logo. Changing logos is never a good thing, it's best done if it's done gradually (think apple losing the stripes). However I don't feel like freebsd has ever really had a logo identity to begin with. Just look here, all the beasties are different: http://www.freebsd.org/art.html If you're going to use beastie just standing like that, it has to be done much better, vectorize it or do it at a higher resolution. There needs to be a real professional logo. Finally: it's not about marketing, it's not about commercialization, it's about image. This is a very professional product, many people have contributed years of very hard work to get FreeBSD where it is today. The logo should show the dedication to the project and the high quality to which it aspires. If the image looks like it's drawn by a 15 year old[1], then that's what the project will look like. Ya, don't judge a book by it's cover sounds great if no one did it. Vonleigh Simmons http://illusionart.com/ [1] No offense intended. I don't think beastie is bad in any way, I just think that it looks dated; even the lettering for FreeBSD is dated as well. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Bart Silverstrim writes: People want to change the logo from Beastie to something else because Beastie isn't professional enough, so some committers decided to hold a contest for a new logo? Beastie isn't a logo. There is no logo for FreeBSD at the moment. Creating one is probably a good idea. Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business would be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it? Overall, no. But some business owners are stupid. A more likely problem is that the devil-worship aspect of Beastie might prevent religiously fanatic potential customers from considering the OS in the first place, thus making it impossible to get a foot in the door. Once someone knows something about the operating system, I doubt that Beastie makes any difference, even among highly religious people. Would you care if a business were that dumb...would you actually *want* them using it? They could be dumb in that way, but still smart in IT. There's certainly no shortage of people in that category. Windows' logo isn't even a logo. It's a flag of a window pane falling apart in the breeze. It meets the criteria for a logo. Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not by commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector? Is FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate marketing? Would you prefer that FreeBSD remain the best kept secret on the Web? It's a good operating system ... why not promote it? It's better than Linux. It would be nice to see a technically superior product actually win, for once. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Louis LeBlanc writes: They why would they care *what* the logo is? They wouldn't; but the logo has an effect on the people who write the checks, and it serves a useful purpose as a unifying identifier. The people who write the checks don't care about skins, though, since they'll never actually use the OS. Those of us that use FreeBSD every day on our desktops for 99.999% of everything we do on a computer of any kind would be more likely to have an opinion. Some of us are so busy using FreeBSD for productive work that we don't have time to play with skins. In the server configurations for which FreeBSD is best suited, it really doesn't need any kind of GUI at all, and is more efficient without one. Which should also be obvious by the length of this and at least one other thread on the subject here on questions alone. I haven't even checked on advocacy. Most of the people here are behaving like teenage boys. Which means they are _not_ behaving anything like IT professionals or business decision makers. Regardless, I never had a problem with Beastie. I like him. He is the only mascot/logo/whatever associated with an OS (other than the window) that is actually relevant. It's cute, but it has never had any effect on my attitude towards FreeBSD. The only thing that influences me is the software (and, to a lesser extent, the attitudes of the people who produce it). -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: Tux is a mascot, not a logo. These are Linux logos: http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topiccaldera.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicdebian.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicmandrake.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicredhat.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicsuse.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicturbolinux.gif I like Red Hat the best, and SuSE is the worst, IMO. The image that is sometimes used as an all-round Linux logo is not just Tux, but rather a particular representation of Tux in combination with a logotype and an orange splash. The author of that logo is clearly aware of the distinction between a logo and a mascot: http://www-mddsp.enel.ucalgary.ca/People/adilger/logo/ These are too complex to be used as logos. Here's a page (a NetBSD logo contest entry) which addresses many of these concerns, and coincidentally underlines my point about the daemon not being exclusive to FreeBSD: http://homepage.mac.com/codesamurai/netbsd-logo-entry/ Technically very clean, but too cute. (this is so good I'm surprised NetBSD didn't adopt it, and I'd love to see it submitted to the FreeBSD logo contest) Eeuh, no. Too cute. It's important to avoid anything that looks like a cartoon. The logo displayed on the NetBSD site is a zillion times better. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Napper writes: Its been my experience that the corporate suits get the perception of teenage hacker from the cartoonish mascots. Agreed. And their perception is not always incorrect. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Anthony Atkielski wrote: Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: Tux is a mascot, not a logo. These are Linux logos: http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topiccaldera.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicdebian.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicmandrake.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicredhat.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicsuse.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicturbolinux.gif I like Red Hat the best, and SuSE is the worst, IMO. Are we forgetting about the printing aspect of things? The redhat logo has some nice gradients in it. The image that is sometimes used as an all-round Linux logo is not just Tux, but rather a particular representation of Tux in combination with a logotype and an orange splash. The author of that logo is clearly aware of the distinction between a logo and a mascot: http://www-mddsp.enel.ucalgary.ca/People/adilger/logo/ These are too complex to be used as logos. And they just plain suck, IMHO. Here's a page (a NetBSD logo contest entry) which addresses many of these concerns, and coincidentally underlines my point about the daemon not being exclusive to FreeBSD: http://homepage.mac.com/codesamurai/netbsd-logo-entry/ Technically very clean, but too cute. Riddled with opinions! :) (this is so good I'm surprised NetBSD didn't adopt it, and I'd love to see it submitted to the FreeBSD logo contest) Eeuh, no. Too cute. It's important to avoid anything that looks like a cartoon. The logo displayed on the NetBSD site is a zillion times better. More opinions!! jesus, does everyone have one of these? :) __ Frank Laszlo System Administrator The VonOstin Group Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW:http://www.vonostingroup.com Mobile: 248-863-7584 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 12:17 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Napper writes: Its been my experience that the corporate suits get the perception of teenage hacker from the cartoonish mascots. Agreed. And their perception is not always incorrect. Am I the only one that finds some amusement in the reference to corporate suits then being followed up with a comment about perception of a stereotype? :-) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Frank Laszlo writes: Are we forgetting about the printing aspect of things? The redhat logo has some nice gradients in it. The GIF I'm looking at seems to contain only red and black, except for the drop shadow, which isn't part of the logo. And they just plain suck, IMHO. They look too puerile for my tastes. But that goes pretty well with Linux. More opinions!! jesus, does everyone have one of these? I have lots of them. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Friday 11 February 2005 08:14 am, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Imagine Linux dropping Tux for some meanlingless, lifeless logo? I'm glad you asked. Tux is a mascot, not a logo. These are Linux logos: http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topiccaldera.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicdebian.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicmandrake.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicredhat.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicsuse.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicturbolinux.gif snip DES No Slackware? In my opinion, Slackware has the widest deviation in professionalism between their logo and mascot. logo(s): http://slackware.com/grfx/shared/logo.png http://store.slackware.com/images/nav/s_topleft.png mascot (pipe-smoking penguin): http://store.slackware.com/cgi-bin/store/slacklapel?id=E844B2UK:mv_pc=379 They also have a When you get serious Slackware t-shirt that I like. I wish I had thought of that for FreeBSD. http://store.slackware.com/cgi-bin/store/serious?id=E844B2UK:mv_pc=426 Andrew Gould ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
At 8:00 AM -0500 2/11/05, Bart Silverstrim wrote: Just to sum up things as I understand it... People want to change the logo from Beastie to something else because Beastie isn't professional enough, so some committers decided to hold a contest for a new logo? We thought it would be nice, after fifteen years, to see if our much-larger user base has any interesting ideas for a new logo. We thought it would be nice to reward people with a minor amount of money as a prize. Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business would be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it? Businesses are stupid. People who demand dedicated allegiance to one single cartoon image are just as stupid. Both are facts, and neither is a late-breaking news item. Someone said people change logos all the time. That's flat out wrong. When a company spends mucho dinero on marketing their logo, they don't just flip around and decide to change their logo that they spent so much money and time getting mindshare with. Have any examples of logos that have constantly changed? We do constantly see companies change their logo. That is not the same thing as saying any *one* company is constantly changing *its* logo. Apple has changed its logo. ATT changed its logo several times. GE recently changed its one-line motto. At one point, McDonalds rebuilt every one of their stores from the old golden-arches look to the newer family restaurant look -- and that cost a hell of a lot more than any logo change. Right now we're working with an image that was picked 15 years ago for a very small open-source project. We now claim to be several orders of magnitude larger than that. I doubt there is *any* company who has stuck with it's original logo as it went from five guys running a hobby to millions of users. Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not by commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector? Is FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate marketing? Some of those volunteers would like to see a new logo. Others would not. The vast majority probably do not care at all. Somehow the ones who like the present logo seem to think they can simply dismiss all comments from the other volunteers who would like a new logo, as if the work done by THOSE volunteers is somehow irrelevant. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn= [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Programmer or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rensselaer Polytechnic Instituteor [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 6:00 AM, Bart Silverstrim wrote: Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not by commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector? Is FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate marketing? Sorry, but this does not make sense. FreeBSD is driven by commercial matters. Many of the people that work on it are paid to work on it by their employers, who are using it commercially. FreeBSD will wither away if it does not continue to receive extensive commercial support like Linux gets. When is a logo technology? No one is talking about a logo steering technology or technology steering a logo. The sentence FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate marketing? is irrelevant to this discussion. You can have the best technology in the world, but if no one uses it, who cares? Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 08:00 -0500, Bart Silverstrim wrote: Someone said people change logos all the time. That's flat out wrong. When a company spends mucho dinero on marketing their logo, they don't just flip around and decide to change their logo that they spent so much money and time getting mindshare with. Have any examples of logos that have constantly changed? http://www.bellsystemmemorial.com/bell_logos.html ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
http://www.bellsystemmemorial.com/bell_logos.html I'm not sure that 6 times in 110 years is constantly changed -- If I write a signature, my emails will appear more personalised. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote: On Feb 11, 2005, at 6:00 AM, Bart Silverstrim wrote: Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not by commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector? Is FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate marketing? Sorry, but this does not make sense. FreeBSD is driven by commercial matters. Many of the people that work on it are paid to work on it by their employers, who are using it commercially. FreeBSD will wither away if it does not continue to receive extensive commercial support like Linux gets. I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid to work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby. __ Frank Laszlo System Administrator The VonOstin Group Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW:http://www.vonostingroup.com Mobile: 248-863-7584 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:04:34 -0600, Andrew L. Gould [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 11 February 2005 08:14 am, Dag-Erling Smrgrav wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Imagine Linux dropping Tux for some meanlingless, lifeless logo? I'm glad you asked. Tux is a mascot, not a logo. These are Linux logos: http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topiccaldera.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicdebian.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicmandrake.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicredhat.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicsuse.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicturbolinux.gif snip DES No Slackware? In my opinion, Slackware has the widest deviation in professionalism between their logo and mascot. logo(s): http://slackware.com/grfx/shared/logo.png http://store.slackware.com/images/nav/s_topleft.png mascot (pipe-smoking penguin): http://store.slackware.com/cgi-bin/store/slacklapel?id=E844B2UK:mv_pc=379 Quite a deviation indeed, especially considering their mascot is an obvious nod to the Church of the SubGenius (http://www.subgenius.com): the true purveyors of SLACK! ;-) Cheers, Paul. -- e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Throw this posting against the wall RIGHT NOW! --- J. R. Bob Dobbs ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 15:56 -0500, Garance A Drosihn wrote: At 8:00 AM -0500 2/11/05, Bart Silverstrim wrote: [...] Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not by commercial matters, FreeBSD is a commercially viable operating system. I happen to think it's the best server OS there is - for businesses. This thread has made it seem, sometimes, as though the touch of commerce is anathema, which is silly. As I understand it, the support of commercial organisations is vital to the project. If you want a project that pisses on its sponsors, there's always OpenBSD. suddenly gain a marketing department that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector? You mean it isn't in the business sector? It's just for geeks to put on their home computers? Somebody ought to mention that to Yahoo. And let's hope nobody who is having FreeBSD pitched to them as a viable server OS for their business reads that remark as they google. Is FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate marketing? What changes would a logo require of the underlying technology of FreeBSD? That's just rhetoric. Some of those volunteers would like to see a new logo. Others would not. The vast majority probably do not care at all. Somehow the ones who like the present logo seem to think they can simply dismiss all comments from the other volunteers who would like a new logo, as if the work done by THOSE volunteers is somehow irrelevant. I haven't noticed anyone suggest that Beastie be banished, just that a proper logo might be appropriate now. Here's a suggestion: Beastie stays as the mascot. People use it as and when they wish, subject to conditions which are at the discretion of a private individual and not the FreeBSD project. And there's a new logo, as opposed to mascot, if the competition throws up one people like. By the way, thanks very much indeed for the work you're doing as a volunteer committer. Without that, we wouldn't be here burning up bandwidth on a technical support mailing list. Peter. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 2:34 PM, Frank Laszlo wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote: On Feb 11, 2005, at 6:00 AM, Bart Silverstrim wrote: Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not by commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector? Is FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate marketing? Sorry, but this does not make sense. FreeBSD is driven by commercial matters. Many of the people that work on it are paid to work on it by their employers, who are using it commercially. FreeBSD will wither away if it does not continue to receive extensive commercial support like Linux gets. I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid to work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby. many in no way means a majority. many is more than a few, where a few is a handful (3-5 or so). There are probably more than a handful who do it as more than a hobby. A lot of good people do it on their own time as well, and I salute that. But a lot of people like Yahoo and others (Apple probably) submit stuff that ends up in FreeBSD and they pay their people to do so. Lots of features, like jails as I understand it, started off by someone getting paid to implement stuff. These things then get added. best Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
At 10:09 PM -0800 2/10/05, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: While you seem determined to pretend that Robert Watson is somehow the sole person interested in this, let me note I am one of the FreeBSD committers who would like to see some new ideas for a logo. Good. At least you have my respect now for growing some balls and admitting it publically. I'm glad you are quick to show just how irrationally inflammatory you are when it comes to this issue. Would the rest of the anti-beastie committers please come out of the bushes now? PHK has commented in one of these threads. DES has also commented. One other committer commented (who I can't remember at the moment). And you love to scream about the evil Robert Watson (*), and how this is his personal double-secret plot, so I assume he must have commented. And frankly, most FreeBSD commiters do not read the -advocacy or -questions mailing lists (I never read advocacy, for instance). So maybe only three or four committers have explicitly expressed support for a LOGO CONTEST. How many committers have responded here saying just how much they hate the idea of even running the contest? And let me say once again, this is FOR a LOGO contest -- which is not the same as being Anti-beastie. All of us have said that the Beastie will remain as a mascot. Kirk and GNN are not going to recall their recent FreeBSD book simply to change the nicely- drawn Beastie on that cover to some simple FreeBSD logo. We keep saying the Beastie remains as a mascot, and you keep talking out of your ass, with its over-abundance of flying black helicopters (* - aside: it's funny how one of the other lists is praising Robert for his high-quality and informative posts, and all the hard work he has done on FreeBSD in the past few months. Those people are talking about making an archive about every one of his posts for future reference, because he constantly contributes so much useful information to end-users. But let someone suggest that he MIGHT be in favor of this PUBLIC CONTEST for a FreeBSD logo, and immediately some ungrateful bastard is treating Robert like he is evil incarnate. It is amazing just how pathetic your memory is when it comes to people who contribute so much to this project -- and you do that in defense of a cartoon image. It's a pity you have more respect for the cartoon than for the developers who work on the source code) -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Programmer or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY; USA ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
At 4:34 PM -0500 2/11/05, Frank Laszlo wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote: FreeBSD is driven by commercial matters. Many of the people that work on it are paid to work on it by their employers, who are using it commercially. I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid to work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby. ...but there is a mighty long list who would love to get paid to work on FreeBSD! :-) Many of us are paid to work on some Linux machines, and I think it would be much much nicer if we could convince our employer to go with FreeBSD instead. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn= [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Programmer or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rensselaer Polytechnic Instituteor [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: Many of the people that work on it are paid to work on it by their employers, who are using it commercially. That would mean that their employers hold a copyright in the FreeBSD code written by their employees; this is a classic implicit work-for-hire arrangement. Have these people signed an agreement with their employers that waives the work-for-hire copyright interest? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Thu, 2005-02-10 at 21:31 -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: What if they put it to a vote and the userbase all votes for logos that clearly represent the Beastie image? What will have been the point of the contest? I am a FreeBSD user. I read and sometimes respond to several of the lists. I have donated money and will continue to donate money to FreeBSD no matter what the logo will be. I also donate money and volunteer my time to Hospice. I do not get nor expect to be able to vote on any issues that may arise at a board meeting for The Hospice of Kona. Why in the world should I expect to be able to vote on whether a new logo is adopted or not? Robert ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Frank Laszlo writes: I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid to work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby. What written agreements do these committers have with their employers? Normally, if you are paid to write something by your employer, your employer owns the copyright in what you write. So unless these committers have specific agreements with their employers to the contrary, they are adding code to FreeBSD that is encumbered by copyrights owned by their employer, and can no longer be freely distributed. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Garance A Drosihn wrote: At 4:34 PM -0500 2/11/05, Frank Laszlo wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote: FreeBSD is driven by commercial matters. Many of the people that work on it are paid to work on it by their employers, who are using it commercially. I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid to work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby. ...but there is a mighty long list who would love to get paid to work on FreeBSD! :-) Many of us are paid to work on some Linux machines, and I think it would be much much nicer if we could convince our employer to go with FreeBSD instead. amen brotha. __ Frank Laszlo System Administrator The VonOstin Group Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW:http://www.vonostingroup.com Mobile: 248-863-7584 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: many in no way means a majority. many is more than a few, where a few is a handful (3-5 or so). There are probably more than a handful who do it as more than a hobby. A lot of good people do it on their own time as well, and I salute that. But a lot of people like Yahoo and others (Apple probably) submit stuff that ends up in FreeBSD and they pay their people to do so. Lots of features, like jails as I understand it, started off by someone getting paid to implement stuff. I hope people are not being as careless as you imply. Being paid to write code as an employee means relinguishing copyright in the code to one's employer. If people are actually doing this for FreeBSD, then some of the code in FreeBSD is owned by their employers, which can become a legal nightmare and stop the project dead in its tracks overnight. Aren't there any _lawyers_ working on this project? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Anthony Atkielski wrote: Frank Laszlo writes: I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid to work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby. What written agreements do these committers have with their employers? Normally, if you are paid to write something by your employer, your employer owns the copyright in what you write. So unless these committers have specific agreements with their employers to the contrary, they are adding code to FreeBSD that is encumbered by copyrights owned by their employer, and can no longer be freely distributed. I was refering to commiters paid BY FreeBSD to provide code. __ Frank Laszlo System Administrator The VonOstin Group Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW:http://www.vonostingroup.com Mobile: 248-863-7584 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:11 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: Many of the people that work on it are paid to work on it by their employers, who are using it commercially. That would mean that their employers hold a copyright in the FreeBSD code written by their employees; this is a classic implicit work-for-hire arrangement. Have these people signed an agreement with their employers that waives the work-for-hire copyright interest? Look in the codebase Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:13 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Frank Laszlo writes: I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid to work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby. What written agreements do these committers have with their employers? Normally, if you are paid to write something by your employer, your employer owns the copyright in what you write. So unless these committers have specific agreements with their employers to the contrary, they are adding code to FreeBSD that is encumbered by copyrights owned by their employer, and can no longer be freely distributed. NO. Their employers are paying them TO WORK on FreeBSD. They are not taking their code that they write for their employers and also sticking it in FreeBSD. Big difference. In the first case, they are allowing it to happen and assign the copyrights as necessary. Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:16 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: many in no way means a majority. many is more than a few, where a few is a handful (3-5 or so). There are probably more than a handful who do it as more than a hobby. A lot of good people do it on their own time as well, and I salute that. But a lot of people like Yahoo and others (Apple probably) submit stuff that ends up in FreeBSD and they pay their people to do so. Lots of features, like jails as I understand it, started off by someone getting paid to implement stuff. I hope people are not being as careless as you imply. Being paid to write code as an employee means relinguishing copyright in the code to one's employer. If people are actually doing this for FreeBSD, then some of the code in FreeBSD is owned by their employers, which can become a legal nightmare and stop the project dead in its tracks overnight. Aren't there any _lawyers_ working on this project? As an example from man jail AUTHORS The jail feature was written by Poul-Henning Kamp for RD Associates http://www.rndassociates.com/ who contributed it to FreeBSD. I would assume, but I do not know, that Poul-Henning Kamp was paid for his work. Then RD Associates contributed it to FreeBSD. I think I have read here that Yahoo has also rolled stuff back into the main line source (I do not have first hand knowledge of this). Apple also rolls stuff back into the BSD source trees. They do so knowingly and with appropriate legalese Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Frank Laszlo writes: I was refering to commiters paid BY FreeBSD to provide code. Ah ... I am reassured! You should always make that crystal-clear whenever you mention this in discussions with anybody. Any rumor started to the contrary could kill off interest in the OS in anyone considering it for anything other than home use (and sometimes even that, thanks to the MPAA and RIAA). -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: Look in the codebase No, tell me right here. CIOs aren't going to look in the codebase to try to find out if it's legal for them to use the operating system. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such asNetBSD!!!
On Thursday 10 February 2005 11:11 pm, Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank J. Laszlo writes: Who says it has to be small? Business cards and letterheads say that. Logos are often reproduced at very small sizes, even on large documents. They often appear in a corner or at the bottom of a page. Logos are not used in place of cover art, but they often are a _part_ of cover art. Getting back to the point at hand, the beastie is nothing more than a mascot. plain and simple. But people are talking like there will be no more beastie representing FreeBSD. I dont think this is the point. What surprises me is that people care so much. It's the software that's important, not the cartoon character that represents it. It makes me wonder what sorts of priorities people have. I'd prefer that people worry more about software quality, and less about pretty pictures. You know, I haven't posted anything about this subject to this list itself - such discussions are probably better suited for -advocacy. In any case, I did some checking ... Hmmm, let's see, Anthony Atielski, 30 posts on this subject alone, on a tech help list. Makes you wonder what sort of priorities you have. Anyway, if you feel that way then let the thread die, or take it to -advocacy. - jt ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Friday 11 February 2005 02:16 pm, Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: many in no way means a majority. many is more than a few, where a few is a handful (3-5 or so). There are probably more than a handful who do it as more than a hobby. A lot of good people do it on their own time as well, and I salute that. But a lot of people like Yahoo and others (Apple probably) submit stuff that ends up in FreeBSD and they pay their people to do so. Lots of features, like jails as I understand it, started off by someone getting paid to implement stuff. I hope people are not being as careless as you imply. Being paid to write code as an employee means relinguishing copyright in the code to one's employer. If people are actually doing this for FreeBSD, then some of the code in FreeBSD is owned by their employers, which can become a legal nightmare and stop the project dead in its tracks overnight. Aren't there any _lawyers_ working on this project? I don't think you understand the history of FreeBSD. Many people who work at Yahoo! are committers, and their employer not only knows about this but encourages it. This is the second cartooney threat you've shot across the bow. To what end? - jt ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Friday 11 February 2005 02:13 pm, Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank Laszlo writes: I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid to work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby. What written agreements do these committers have with their employers? Normally, if you are paid to write something by your employer, your employer owns the copyright in what you write. So unless these committers have specific agreements with their employers to the contrary, they are adding code to FreeBSD that is encumbered by copyrights owned by their employer, and can no longer be freely distributed. Do you have any proof of malfeasence? Are you planning on suing someone, or is this meant to be useful in some way? - jt ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: Their employers are paying them TO WORK on FreeBSD. They are not taking their code that they write for their employers and also sticking it in FreeBSD. Big difference. Not if their work consists of writing code. In that case, the copyright in the code belongs to their employer (in the U.S., and in a number of other countries with similar provisions). Under 17 USC 101: A 'work made for hire' is (1) a work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her employment; or (2) a work specially ordered or commissioned for use as a contribution to a collective work, as a part of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, as a translation, as a supplementary work, as a compilation, as an instructional text, as a test, as answer material for a test, or as an atlas, if the parties expressly agree in a written instrument signed by them that the work shall be considered a work made for hire. [...] Note that a collective work is generally a book or a movie, not a computer operating system: A 'collective work' is a work, such as a periodical issue, anthology, or encyclopedia, in which a number of contributions, constituting separate and independent works in themselves, are assembled into a collective whole. Computer program is separately defined, which means that it is not a collective work. In the first case, they are allowing it to happen and assign the copyrights as necessary. Do they do this in writing before the code becomes a part of the project? Do they have a written agreement with their employees that explicitly waives their work-for-hire interest in the copyright? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: Sorry, but the employers are freely offering the code and assigning copyrights as necessary. OK, as long as the copyrights are assigned before any of the code finds its way into the released product. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:30 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: Look in the codebase No, tell me right here. CIOs aren't going to look in the codebase to try to find out if it's legal for them to use the operating system. You ask a dumb question, get such an answer. You make assumptions that just because someone is paying someone to work on FreeBSD that no one has thought of the copyright implications. The people running the FreeBSD project are smarter than that. And I am not your errand-boy. If you are seriously worried about this, then you need to make the investment necessary to clear your mind on the issue. Asking other people to do so is arrogant. Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:40 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: Their employers are paying them TO WORK on FreeBSD. They are not taking their code that they write for their employers and also sticking it in FreeBSD. Big difference. Not if their work consists of writing code. In that case, the copyright in the code belongs to their employer (in the U.S., and in a number of other countries with similar provisions). Yes there is a difference. If the employer assigns it to the FreeBSD project. That is what we are talking about. Under 17 USC 101: A 'work made for hire' is (1) a work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her employment; or (2) a work specially ordered or commissioned for use as a contribution to a collective work, as a part of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, as a translation, as a supplementary work, as a compilation, as an instructional text, as a test, as answer material for a test, or as an atlas, if the parties expressly agree in a written instrument signed by them that the work shall be considered a work made for hire. [...] Note that a collective work is generally a book or a movie, not a computer operating system: A 'collective work' is a work, such as a periodical issue, anthology, or encyclopedia, in which a number of contributions, constituting separate and independent works in themselves, are assembled into a collective whole. Computer program is separately defined, which means that it is not a collective work. In the first case, they are allowing it to happen and assign the copyrights as necessary. Do they do this in writing before the code becomes a part of the project? Do they have a written agreement with their employees that explicitly waives their work-for-hire interest in the copyright? I don't know. Go ask them. Look in the codebase yourself, or pay someone to do so. Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Andrew L. Gould writes: That's an assumption. The project needs to ask for proof of this, and not simply assume it. We could as easily assume that the employers: Never assume anything in law. A wrong assumption could bury the project. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such asNetBSD!!!
Joshua Tinnin writes: Hmmm, let's see, Anthony Atielski, 30 posts on this subject alone, on a tech help list. Makes you wonder what sort of priorities you have. At the moment, I'm worried about FreeBSD. Anyway, if you feel that way then let the thread die, or take it to -advocacy. I reply to the posts in whichever list they occur. While I agree that it should be in -advocacy, if the posts are on this list, then I naturally reply to them here. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
