Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nope. Beastie is a way of life. I'd be quite upset if it were dropped for whatever reason. It is so intimately tied to FreeBSD that it would be a PR disaster if it were to be changed. NetBSD never had a real The BSD daemon image stems from around 4.3BSD, or an even earlier release, not FreeBSD. It can therefore never be specific for the FreeBSD system, in the same way Ronald McDonald doesn't stand for the Big Mac alone, but rather for the entire company. In earlier years, before the general hype about Linux and *BSD, I've seen the image being used in presentations about Unix in general. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:16 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: many in no way means a majority. many is more than a few, where a few is a handful (3-5 or so). There are probably more than a handful who do it as more than a hobby. A lot of good people do it on their own time as well, and I salute that. But a lot of people like Yahoo and others (Apple probably) submit stuff that ends up in FreeBSD and they pay their people to do so. Lots of features, like jails as I understand it, started off by someone getting paid to implement stuff. I hope people are not being as careless as you imply. Being paid to write code as an employee means relinguishing copyright in the code to one's employer. If people are actually doing this for FreeBSD, then some of the code in FreeBSD is owned by their employers, which can become a legal nightmare and stop the project dead in its tracks overnight. Aren't there any _lawyers_ working on this project? Sorry, but the employers are freely offering the code and assigning copyrights as necessary. Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
-Original Message- From: Garance A Drosehn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 1:59 PM To: Ted Mittelstaedt; freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!! And frankly, most FreeBSD commiters do not read the -advocacy or -questions mailing lists (I never read advocacy, for instance). So maybe only three or four committers have explicitly expressed support for a LOGO CONTEST. Are you just too dense to understand that supporting a logo contest automatically implies that you are unsatisfied with the current logo? If you like Beastie why on earth would you want a contest to replace him? For the last time, it is not the contest that I and others are objecting to. It is what you intend to do with the results of the contest - that is, replace Beastie. How many committers have responded here saying just how much they hate the idea of even running the contest? Why would they bother posting at all? It is not they who are being attacked - it's you and the others who want to dump Beastie and replace him. Of course since they aren't being attacked they aren't going to have a need to defend themselves. And let me say once again, this is FOR a LOGO contest -- which is not the same as being Anti-beastie. All of us have said that the Beastie will remain as a mascot. An hour ago you posted this: if our much-larger user base has any interesting ideas for a new logo you did NOT say: if our much-larger user base has any interesting ideas for a logo Your statement implied that a logo already existed - which in fact it does. You also said: Somehow the ones who like the PRESENT logo seem to think.. What I see here is that when your using the we never had a logo before argument, you pretend a logo didn't exist, but all other times you acknowledge that it does exist. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Garance A Drosihn Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 12:56 PM To: Bart Silverstrim; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!! At 8:00 AM -0500 2/11/05, Bart Silverstrim wrote: Just to sum up things as I understand it... People want to change the logo from Beastie to something else because Beastie isn't professional enough, so some committers decided to hold a contest for a new logo? We thought it would be nice, after fifteen years, to see if our much-larger user base has any interesting ideas for a new logo. That is putting the cart before the horse. What you need to do first is find out if our much-larger userbase WANTS a new logo. If they do, THEN try finding out if they have any interesting ideas for one. Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business would be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it? Businesses are stupid. People who demand dedicated allegiance to one single cartoon image are just as stupid. Both are facts, and neither is a late-breaking news item. The FreeBSD project is not a business. Someone said people change logos all the time. That's flat out wrong. When a company spends mucho dinero on marketing their logo, they don't just flip around and decide to change their logo that they spent so much money and time getting mindshare with. Have any examples of logos that have constantly changed? We do constantly see companies change their logo. That is not the same thing as saying any *one* company is constantly changing *its* logo. Apple has changed its logo. ATT changed its logo several times. GE recently changed its one-line motto. At one point, McDonalds rebuilt every one of their stores from the old golden-arches look to the newer family restaurant look -- and that cost a hell of a lot more than any logo change. All of those organizations are businesses. The FreeBSD Project is not. How is any of that applicable? Right now we're working with an image that was picked 15 years ago for a very small open-source project. Your working with an image that was first associated with UNIX in 1976, which is almost it's entire life. We now claim to be several orders of magnitude larger than that. I doubt there is *any* company who has stuck with it's original logo as it went from five guys running a hobby to millions of users. The FreeBSD Project is not a company. Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not by commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector? Is FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate marketing? Some of those volunteers would like to see a new logo. Others would not. The vast majority probably do not care at all. If you really believe that, then hold a vote on the issue don't just ASS-U-ME it. There is an online petition currently that says that quite a lot of the volunteers do indeed care. Somehow the ones who like the present logo seem to think they can simply dismiss all comments from the other volunteers who would like a new logo, as if the work done by THOSE volunteers is somehow irrelevant. Somehow the ones who dislike the present logo seem to think they can simply dismiss all comments from the other volunteers who would like to retain the old logo, as if the work done by THOSE volunteers is somehow irrelevant. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Joshua Tinnin writes: I don't think you understand the history of FreeBSD. Many people who work at Yahoo! are committers, and their employer not only knows about this but encourages it. That's not good enough. The employer has to assign its copyrights as well, or waive the usual work-for-hire arrangement that is implicit for employees writing code within the scope of their work. Copyright does not enter the equation at all. What matters is the license. For instance: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~% head -35 /usr/src/contrib/openpam/include/security/openpam.h /*- * Copyright (c) 2002-2003 Networks Associates Technology, Inc. * All rights reserved. * * This software was developed for the FreeBSD Project by ThinkSec AS and * Network Associates Laboratories, the Security Research Division of * Network Associates, Inc. under DARPA/SPAWAR contract N66001-01-C-8035 * (CBOSS), as part of the DARPA CHATS research program. * * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions * are met: * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright *notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright *notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the *documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution. * 3. The name of the author may not be used to endorse or promote *products derived from this software without specific prior written *permission. * * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE AUTHOR AND CONTRIBUTORS ``AS IS'' AND * ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE * IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE * ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE * FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL * DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS * OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) * HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT * LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY * OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF * SUCH DAMAGE. * * $P4: //depot/projects/openpam/include/security/openpam.h#28 $ */ DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: Copyright does not enter the equation at all. What matters is the license. Uh ... where there is no copyright, there is no license. Where there is a license, there is a copyright. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: Copyright does not enter the equation at all. What matters is the license. Uh ... where there is no copyright, there is no license. Where there is a license, there is a copyright. Are you intentionally misinterpreting me? It does not matter who holds the copyright as long as the work is distributed under the right kind of license. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Bart Silverstrim wrote: On Feb 11, 2005, at 2:18 AM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Ted Mittelstaedt writes: That is so not true that it makes me almost as angry as the original debate. Maybe getting angry about a mere logo is a bad sign. Just to sum up things as I understand it... People want to change the logo from Beastie to something else because Beastie isn't professional enough, so some committers decided to hold a contest for a new logo? Not really. Someone found a draft of a document suggesting a contest, that was not meant to be published (yet?) and then all hell broke loss. Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business would be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it? Would you care if a business were that dumb...would you actually *want* them using it? Its not that simple. Several times I have seen very intelligent and competent administrators that would love to run BSD be forced to install linux just because the management of their company liked linux better. A business is rarely stupid, but the people that run the business may often have their priorities messed up. Someone said people change logos all the time. That's flat out wrong. When a company spends mucho dinero on marketing their logo, they don't just flip around and decide to change their logo that they spent so much money and time getting mindshare with. Have any examples of logos that have constantly changed? As posten elsewhere in this thread: http://www.bellsystemmemorial.com/bell_logos.html Times and trends change, companies that wants to survive do to. Windows' logo isn't even a logo. It's a flag of a window pane falling apart in the breeze. I associate windows with broken glass. These things don't seem to hinder Windows from getting massive market share. Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not by commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector? Is FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate marketing? I sincerely hope not. But superior technology does not mean we cant be good at marketing too. And seriously, would FreeBSD suffer from a better logo? Would it make it less technology driven? Even if the logo was picture of someones ass, I would still use FreeBSD. If the logo was a superior and beatiful incarnation of everything a logo should be, that would not change my mind either. Or is this all some sneaky way of saying that Beastie is too much like the Devil and this new logo contest is a way to slip out the connotative Beastie with some other more politically correct symbol, like the drive in American classrooms for Intelligent Design to be taught in science classes (It's not Creationism! It's not Creationism! It's *science*...) There are so many reasons beside religious ones why Beastie is a bad logo I dont even know where to start. It looks bad in print. Its expensive to print. It does not look like something an advanced OS would use as logo. Its hard to reproduce. On the other hand, its almost perfect as a mascot, which is a very different thing from a logo. Just asking, since I was largely ignoring the thread but got curious after so MANY posts were made about the topic. Seems to be a hot topic. Which it wouldnt be if 90% of the posters to this thread didnt missunderstand the whole idea. -- R ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: -Original Message- From: Garance A Drosehn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 1:59 PM To: Ted Mittelstaedt; freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!! And frankly, most FreeBSD commiters do not read the -advocacy or -questions mailing lists (I never read advocacy, for instance). So maybe only three or four committers have explicitly expressed support for a LOGO CONTEST. Are you just too dense to understand that supporting a logo contest automatically implies that you are unsatisfied with the current logo? If you like Beastie why on earth would you want a contest to replace him? I like Beastie! I wear shirts with Beastie! I have a 45cm tall sticker of Beastie on the front of my fridge, clearly visible to anyone that enters my appartment. I have Powered by FreeBSD stickers sporting Beastie on my laptop. I have Beastie as screensaver and as desktop background. Still, Im not to dense to realize that there is a need for a new logo. You, on the other hand, seem to be to dense* to realize the difference between a logo and a mascot. For the last time, it is not the contest that I and others are objecting to. It is what you intend to do with the results of the contest - that is, replace Beastie. Not replace. Complement. Some people would be extremely helped by a more proffesional looking logo. Therefor, the idea was put forward to complement Beastie with a logo useable in the commercial world. (Actually, the idea was never presented, it was drafted and then leaked before finished). This would mean that the people that likes Beastie can continue using it, while the people needing a more proffesional logo would also see their needs fullfilled. However, some people does not need a new logo, and they seem to fight furiously to stop a change that basically would not affect them at all. I simply fail to understand their stand in this. -- R * When I call you dense I do not seriously mean to question your intelligence. I respect you as the author of a very good book and I value your contributions to the community as well as your opinions, but in this matter I just find it impossible to understand your point of view. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 4:51 PM, Peter Risdon wrote: On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 15:56 -0500, Garance A Drosihn wrote: At 8:00 AM -0500 2/11/05, Bart Silverstrim wrote: [...] Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not by commercial matters, FreeBSD is a commercially viable operating system. I happen to think it's the best server OS there is - for businesses. This thread has made it seem, sometimes, as though the touch of commerce is anathema, which is silly. As I understand it, the support of commercial organisations is vital to the project. If you want a project that pisses on its sponsors, there's always OpenBSD. I didn't say it wasn't commercially viable. What I said was that it was driven by the volunteers. Commercial support isn't being pissed on. BUT it can easily taint it when a commercial sponsor goes from *just* supporting to saying they'll support more if...and more if this...and that...oh, and you don't want that person over there on the commit list because he's not a team player. And yes, I'm overdramatizing to try to make a point. If they want to support it, that's great. But the thing I don't want to see (and I hope others don't want to see) is FreeBSD starting to have it's priorities driven by commercial interests or a group of people who want to mess with something solely because it's not their definition of politically correct. The difference between driven by volunteers and driven by commercial interests is that commercial interests will cater to the user and give them what they want. The volunteers give them what they need. What they want yields products like Windows, so hobbled by bandages and bandaids for backward compatibility and security breaches to support their ease of use mantra that it is...well...crappy for use anywhere but the desktop. What they need yields servers that are reliable and robust and minimize unscheduled downtime. suddenly gain a marketing department that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector? You mean it isn't in the business sector? It's just for geeks to put on their home computers? Somebody ought to mention that to Yahoo. And let's hope nobody who is having FreeBSD pitched to them as a viable server OS for their business reads that remark as they google. Again, never said it wasn't. It was well made and it HAPPENED TO BE perfectly viable for that use. It was never a group of people who sat down and said, How can we build this OS to serve Yahoo's customers the best? Never read the remark that there's an ulterior motive behind the creation of FreeBSD, that it was aimed for businesses? My impression was that it was created to be a good server OS. Use it or don't. It doesn't need businesses to survive, but if they use it they'd be better off. It was untainted by business politics and marketing tripe. FreeBSD and Linux were examples of what happens when marketers stay OUT of the core process of delivering the project and the geeks using and developing the OS told users that if they wanted a feature, they might put it in...maybe not. Don't like it, you can do it yourself. Is this the best approach? Probably not. But it's how it came to this point. If marketing led FreeBSD's goals now, you'd have an OS that would require three times the RAM, twice the disk space, Ports would have a front end tool that's entirely GUI driven, the OS would have more services by default, and it would always install and boot to a GUI based on GNOME or KDE...because it friendlier and more marketable that way. Is FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate marketing? What changes would a logo require of the underlying technology of FreeBSD? That's just rhetoric. It doesn't. The question was, is FreeBSD starting to have Some of those volunteers would like to see a new logo. Others would not. The vast majority probably do not care at all. Somehow the ones who like the present logo seem to think they can simply dismiss all comments from the other volunteers who would like a new logo, as if the work done by THOSE volunteers is somehow irrelevant. I haven't noticed anyone suggest that Beastie be banished, just that a proper logo might be appropriate now. Here's a suggestion: Beastie stays as the mascot. People use it as and when they wish, subject to conditions which are at the discretion of a private individual and not the FreeBSD project. And there's a new logo, as opposed to mascot, if the competition throws up one people like. This distinction has been being made more and more; change logo, not mascot. I think what got people's hackles in a bind was that there has been periodic discussion over changing or altering the mascot because it's too satanic. He's evil! You're debbil worshippers! This periodic infringement of religion on geek territory...the mascot that has come to represent what many people have donated significant portions of
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: Are you intentionally misinterpreting me? No, I'm correcting you. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
At 2:06 AM -0800 2/12/05, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: For the last time, it is not the contest that I and others are objecting to. I am glad to hear that this message was the last time you mention it. Thanks. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Programmer or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY; USA ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Friday 11 February 2005 12:31 am, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: There can be only ONE 'flagship' logo just as there is only one company name in a conglomerate. But there is plenty of space for different subsidiary marks for the product. For example, Chevrolet, Buick, Saturn, these are all part of General Motors. However they have their own distinct brands and logos and such. But, there is only ONE name for the company - GM - that is used when talking about the -entire- enchalada. Heh... This gives me an idea... How about FreeBSD skins. The Beastie as the default (of course), and dis_ey-type themes for the weak in the faith. If FreeBSD's attempt is not to be offensive to anyone, anywhere, anytime, then perhaps it just needs to jump into a different skin for everybody (corporate or otherwise) it serves... Perhaps a questionare to be filled out in the beginnings of sysinstall would let the system know what is to be considered appropriate. (hey... anythings possible) :) Mike ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Mike Hauber writes: Heh... This gives me an idea... How about FreeBSD skins. The Beastie as the default (of course), and dis_ey-type themes for the weak in the faith. If FreeBSD's attempt is not to be offensive to anyone, anywhere, anytime, then perhaps it just needs to jump into a different skin for everybody (corporate or otherwise) it serves... Perhaps a questionare to be filled out in the beginnings of sysinstall would let the system know what is to be considered appropriate. This sort of idea betrays the geek atmosphere that pervades FreeBSD and many other open-source efforts. It might please geeks installing the OS, but it only makes it look like a toy to people who are installing it for serious use. Nobody sitting in a machine room in front of a rack of servers is going to care anything about skins. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 2:18 AM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Ted Mittelstaedt writes: That is so not true that it makes me almost as angry as the original debate. Maybe getting angry about a mere logo is a bad sign. Just to sum up things as I understand it... People want to change the logo from Beastie to something else because Beastie isn't professional enough, so some committers decided to hold a contest for a new logo? Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business would be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it? Would you care if a business were that dumb...would you actually *want* them using it? Someone said people change logos all the time. That's flat out wrong. When a company spends mucho dinero on marketing their logo, they don't just flip around and decide to change their logo that they spent so much money and time getting mindshare with. Have any examples of logos that have constantly changed? Windows' logo isn't even a logo. It's a flag of a window pane falling apart in the breeze. I associate windows with broken glass. These things don't seem to hinder Windows from getting massive market share. Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not by commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector? Is FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate marketing? Or is this all some sneaky way of saying that Beastie is too much like the Devil and this new logo contest is a way to slip out the connotative Beastie with some other more politically correct symbol, like the drive in American classrooms for Intelligent Design to be taught in science classes (It's not Creationism! It's not Creationism! It's *science*...) Just asking, since I was largely ignoring the thread but got curious after so MANY posts were made about the topic. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Bart Silverstrim wrote: Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business would be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it? Would you care if a business were that dumb...would you actually *want* them using it? The problem (from my point of view) really has a lot more to do with having to communicate about an OS after it is selected, rather than the act of selection (which is rightly based on technical merit). I need to communicate about ongoing server operations with boards of trustees, with my immediate customers, and indirectly with their customers. I can't use Beastie in these discussions because I can't afford the time to explain the multiple inside jokes re: daemon/demon, the tennis shoes, etc., over and over and over again, and I really, really can't afford to lose a debate about FreeBSD's appropriateness. While the amusing subtleties embodied in the Beatie emblem are indeed endearing to the IT community, they are a serious *drag* when communicating to the less clueful. Windows' logo isn't even a logo. It's a flag of a window pane falling apart in the breeze. I associate windows with broken glass. These things don't seem to hinder Windows from getting massive market share. My board of directors never looked at the Windows logo and said What the f#$% is that!?. Argue all you like about the fact that people need to be more open and clueful, and how precious Beatie's legacy is (I agree it is), the bottom line is that some rather important people aren't very clueful, and many of them can't ever be expected to be clueful, and I don't have time to educate dozens of people every time I want to compare our organization's use of various OS flavors. So, I limit myself to indicating FreeBSD by text only, and I know that the impact of that on the decision makers is somewhat lower than if I had a stylin' graphic suitable for use in official communications like uptime graphs, scope of use, service dependencies, project activities, etc. OK, so now maybe I expect some flamage about bein' chicken, not standing up for what's right, etc. Well, horse hockey. I have a duty to my employer not to waste everyone's time with the deamon/demon discussion (over and over and over again). It would be one thing if we could do it once and get it over with, but that is clearly not the case. -- Greg Barniskis, Computer Systems Integrator South Central Library System (SCLS) Library Interchange Network (LINK) gregb at scls.lib.wi.us, (608) 266-6348 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Imagine Linux dropping Tux for some meanlingless, lifeless logo? I'm glad you asked. Tux is a mascot, not a logo. These are Linux logos: http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topiccaldera.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicdebian.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicmandrake.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicredhat.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicsuse.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicturbolinux.gif The image that is sometimes used as an all-round Linux logo is not just Tux, but rather a particular representation of Tux in combination with a logotype and an orange splash. The author of that logo is clearly aware of the distinction between a logo and a mascot: http://www-mddsp.enel.ucalgary.ca/People/adilger/logo/ Likewise, Beastie is a mascot, not a logo. In fact, it fails the primary and most important test of logoness: it is not exclusive to the FreeBSD project, but is shared by all BSD projects. It also fails several other important tests of logoness: it is not under the FreeBSD project's direct control (our use of it is subject to the whim and mercy of Kirk McKusick); it is not a registered trademark; it is probably too diluted already to even be eligible to be registered as a trademark. This does not even begin to consider the technical aspects (ease of reproduction, scalability, representability in monochrome, recognizability under different and sometimes difficult conditions, etc.) Here's a page (a NetBSD logo contest entry) which addresses many of these concerns, and coincidentally underlines my point about the daemon not being exclusive to FreeBSD: http://homepage.mac.com/codesamurai/netbsd-logo-entry/ (this is so good I'm surprised NetBSD didn't adopt it, and I'd love to see it submitted to the FreeBSD logo contest) DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On 02/11/05 09:52 AM, Anthony Atkielski sat at the `puter and typed: Mike Hauber writes: Heh... This gives me an idea... How about FreeBSD skins. The Beastie as the default (of course), and dis_ey-type themes for the weak in the faith. If FreeBSD's attempt is not to be offensive to anyone, anywhere, anytime, then perhaps it just needs to jump into a different skin for everybody (corporate or otherwise) it serves... Perhaps a questionare to be filled out in the beginnings of sysinstall would let the system know what is to be considered appropriate. This sort of idea betrays the geek atmosphere that pervades FreeBSD and many other open-source efforts. It might please geeks installing the OS, but it only makes it look like a toy to people who are installing it for serious use. Nobody sitting in a machine room in front of a rack of servers is going to care anything about skins. They why would they care *what* the logo is? Those of us that use FreeBSD every day on our desktops for 99.999% of everything we do on a computer of any kind would be more likely to have an opinion. Which should also be obvious by the length of this and at least one other thread on the subject here on questions alone. I haven't even checked on advocacy. I'm just going to say this. I use FreeBSD for EVERYTHING I do until I'm forced to open a word doc someone else will have to edit and see. I know there are alternatives, but they don't seem to have some of the features needed for the stuff I get at work. Regardless, I never had a problem with Beastie. I like him. He is the only mascot/logo/whatever associated with an OS (other than the window) that is actually relevant. What the hell does a penguin have to do with Linux? What does a red hat have to do, except to repeat the name? Even Puffy isn't really relevant except to try to represent the security features -why not an armadillo? Even when I was a spiritual and faithful Catholic, I never had a problem with Beastie. I know that christians buy Deviled Ham every day, watch the Blue Devils play football or whatever it is they do, and use Red Devil paints and caulking to winterize their houses, and don't think twice, but now Beastie is coming under fire because he's red, has horns and a tail and a fork. Must be Satan. Therefore people that love FreeBSD love Satan. That's logic. I don't think I have the energy to keep posting to this thread. I have other things to deal with. I'm just going to restate my opinion here one last time. There were obviously some assumptions made about the intentions of the core group. Most, if not all were probably wrong. At least about the way they were planning this whole contest. I don't think anyone ever intended to doubt the fact they are genuinely interested in nothing more than spreading FreeBSD and it's welfare. The more people that use it the better appreciated they'll feel. Perfectly reasonable. I suspect that whether they are right or wrong about Beasties impact on the spread is the only issue at hand. Beastie is relevant, he's well liked by those that understand him. There is no good reason to remove him. You want to build a multi faced distribution with skins, go right ahead. Contrary to the previous post, I don't think I'd really have any problem with it. Just don't remove the beastie images from the distribution, and don't make it a pain in the ass to keep him in the boot screen. I know there will be plenty of people that disagree, but these are my opinions and I'm sticking with them. No, not blindly. Maybe I'm just not business savvy, but I never set out to be. I *have* my reasons for wanting the look of FreeBSD to stay the same, and they're not based on other peoples sensitivities, beliefs or hysteria. Just let me know if the beastie shirts go on sale. I'll stock up. Lou -- Louis LeBlanc FreeBSD-at-keyslapper-DOT-net Fully Funded Hobbyist, KeySlapper Extrordinaire :) Please send off-list email to: leblanc at keyslapper d.t net Key fingerprint = C5E7 4762 F071 CE3B ED51 4FB8 AF85 A2FE 80C8 D9A2 Cahn's Axiom: When all else fails, read the instructions. pgpymdtHoZBtT.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: Here's a page (a NetBSD logo contest entry) which addresses many of these concerns, and coincidentally underlines my point about the daemon not being exclusive to FreeBSD: http://homepage.mac.com/codesamurai/netbsd-logo-entry/ That is not bad. But is it sufficiently different from the original Beastie that it is not burdened with being a derivative worK in terms of copyright? Understanding that this distinction cannot be really certain except as a consequence of litigation on that point, the underlying question is Do you really want to go there?. I suppose the solution to the potential ambiguity for this or any other comparable logo would be to get McKusick to sign off on it in some formal way, indicating that is not Beastie. -- Greg Barniskis, Computer Systems Integrator South Central Library System (SCLS) Library Interchange Network (LINK) gregb at scls.lib.wi.us, (608) 266-6348 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:53:17 -0600 Greg Barniskis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bart Silverstrim wrote: Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business would be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it? Would you care if a business were that dumb...would you actually *want* them using it? The problem (from my point of view) really has a lot more to do with having to communicate about an OS after it is selected, rather than the act of selection (which is rightly based on technical merit). I need to communicate about ongoing server operations with boards of trustees, with my immediate customers, and indirectly with their customers. I can't use Beastie in these discussions because I can't afford the time to explain the multiple inside jokes re: daemon/demon, the tennis shoes, etc., over and over and over again, and I really, really can't afford to lose a debate about FreeBSD's appropriateness. While the amusing subtleties embodied in the Beatie emblem are indeed endearing to the IT community, they are a serious *drag* when communicating to the less clueful. Windows' logo isn't even a logo. It's a flag of a window pane falling apart in the breeze. I associate windows with broken glass. These things don't seem to hinder Windows from getting massive market share. My board of directors never looked at the Windows logo and said What the f#$% is that!?. Argue all you like about the fact that people need to be more open and clueful, and how precious Beatie's legacy is (I agree it is), the bottom line is that some rather important people aren't very clueful, and many of them can't ever be expected to be clueful, and I don't have time to educate dozens of people every time I want to compare our organization's use of various OS flavors. So, I limit myself to indicating FreeBSD by text only, and I know that the impact of that on the decision makers is somewhat lower than if I had a stylin' graphic suitable for use in official communications like uptime graphs, scope of use, service dependencies, project activities, etc. OK, so now maybe I expect some flamage about bein' chicken, not standing up for what's right, etc. Well, horse hockey. I have a duty to my employer not to waste everyone's time with the deamon/demon discussion (over and over and over again). It would be one thing if we could do it once and get it over with, but that is clearly not the case. I think that exactly the need Core is trying to address along with addressing the mechanics of logo (not mascot) reproduction. Its been my experience that the corporate suits get the perception of teenage hacker from the cartoonish mascots. Truth or not, perception is what matters and we do need something a bit more mature and professional. Whether or not I like the mascot is beside the point entirely. I want to see FreeBSD grow and penetrate new market areas. I fully expect things to change to accomodate this and support Core's decisions. I hope others can get past their emotional reactions and approach this from a practical standpoint. There's been far too much discussion and speculation about all this. Just wait for the official announcement. The draft of the contest announcement did not necessarily indicate what will be in the final document. Nap -- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 8:53 AM, Greg Barniskis wrote: Bart Silverstrim wrote: Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business would be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it? Would you care if a business were that dumb...would you actually *want* them using it? The problem (from my point of view) really has a lot more to do with having to communicate about an OS after it is selected, rather than the act of selection (which is rightly based on technical merit). I need to communicate about ongoing server operations with boards of trustees, with my immediate customers, and indirectly with their customers. I can't use Beastie in these discussions because I can't afford the time to explain the multiple inside jokes re: daemon/demon, the tennis shoes, etc., over and over and over again, and I really, really can't afford to lose a debate about FreeBSD's appropriateness. While the amusing subtleties embodied in the Beatie emblem are indeed endearing to the IT community, they are a serious *drag* when communicating to the less clueful. I suppose if my employers were that close in resemblance to the PHB in Dilbert, I'd probably just not use the logo and use some text version of the OS name. That is, if they care enough to question it. My employers don't know anything about our servers, and they don't care to know about them either, so they don't question it; just my immediate supervisor cares enough to know about the situation. Maybe as an experiment I should introduce the logo sometime to the administrative staff to see if they question it. I'm missing the part about the tennis shoes though. I didn't realize that was part of the joke...? :-) Windows' logo isn't even a logo. It's a flag of a window pane falling apart in the breeze. I associate windows with broken glass. These things don't seem to hinder Windows from getting massive market share. My board of directors never looked at the Windows logo and said What the f#$% is that!?. Argue all you like about the fact that people need to be more open and clueful, and how precious Beatie's legacy is (I agree it is), the bottom line is that some rather important people aren't very clueful, and many of them can't ever be expected to be clueful, and I don't have time to educate dozens of people every time I want to compare our organization's use of various OS flavors. So, I limit myself to indicating FreeBSD by text only, and I know that the impact of that on the decision makers is somewhat lower than if I had a stylin' graphic suitable for use in official communications like uptime graphs, scope of use, service dependencies, project activities, etc. I suppose you could always migrate to OpenBSD. I always liked the blowfish. My personal approach if stuck without a cluebat would be to just make something up just for your presentations. If you honestly think they are going to run into FreeBSD info out there on the in-tar-net, they're GOING to get exposed to the evil devil like being. And that logo, like it or not, is going to continue floating around out there. It can't be pushed aside like some dark family secret. Most clueless management have interest spans regarding technology that lasts about as long as the meeting in which they're exposed to the forbidden information. Get the McDonald's logo or get a picture of a stack of pancakes and use that for your presentation. I doubt they'd care about the difference. Why have the world bend to the will of the minority to please a couple PHBs? That's thinking like a PHB... OK, so now maybe I expect some flamage about bein' chicken, not standing up for what's right, etc. Well, horse hockey. I have a duty to my employer not to waste everyone's time with the deamon/demon discussion (over and over and over again). It would be one thing if we could do it once and get it over with, but that is clearly not the case. If it's your duty not to waste their time with daemon/demon (etc), why are you bringing it up? Oh, you mean THEY are bringing it it up. After you already explained it. So THEY're the problem, since they aren't listening and remembering. AND they're wasting your time by having you review the material again and rehash issues regarding a *logo* instead of what the meeting is supposed to be about? Just checking. Your duty should be to answer their questions and go over pertinent information for the presentation. If they want to know about it *again*, give them the info. If they keep forgetting, print up a pamphlet. There may already be stuff at the FreeBSD advocacy sites ready to print. -- Greg Barniskis, Computer Systems Integrator South Central Library System (SCLS) Library Interchange Network (LINK) gregb at scls.lib.wi.us, (608) 266-6348 You work in a library and yet they don't want to be educated. I always found that ironic. The best way to punish educated people? Make them read. I found that
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
* Bart Silverstrim [EMAIL PROTECTED] [0201 13:01]: On Feb 11, 2005, at 2:18 AM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Ted Mittelstaedt writes: That is so not true that it makes me almost as angry as the original debate. Maybe getting angry about a mere logo is a bad sign. Just to sum up things as I understand it... People want to change the logo from Beastie to something else because Beastie isn't professional enough, so some committers decided to hold a contest for a new logo? Let me correct you there. This is what happened. Someone wanted a logo in addition to beastie. Someone got the wrong end of the stick. Everyone with an opinion decided to tell everyone it. -- 'My life, and by extension everyone else's, is meaningless.' -- Bender Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
People want to change the logo from Beastie to something else because Beastie isn't professional enough, so some committers decided to hold a contest for a new logo? As an artist here is how I see it: Beastie is a mascot, not a logo. It's like having Disney with a Mickey Mouse. The logo is either the word Disney in that very distinct font, or the black ears. The mascot can be part of the logo but not always; in the Disney example it's derived from it (this approach could work with Beastie). Another example is monster.com, that also has a distinct mascot and a logo (don't like the logo, just pointing it out). So the logo contest could use beastie in some interesting way: framed, simplified, stylized, vectorized, etc. In other words made into a real logo from the cartoon character. By stylize I mean for example what the fox looks like in the firefox logo. Changing logos is never a good thing, it's best done if it's done gradually (think apple losing the stripes). However I don't feel like freebsd has ever really had a logo identity to begin with. Just look here, all the beasties are different: http://www.freebsd.org/art.html If you're going to use beastie just standing like that, it has to be done much better, vectorize it or do it at a higher resolution. There needs to be a real professional logo. Finally: it's not about marketing, it's not about commercialization, it's about image. This is a very professional product, many people have contributed years of very hard work to get FreeBSD where it is today. The logo should show the dedication to the project and the high quality to which it aspires. If the image looks like it's drawn by a 15 year old[1], then that's what the project will look like. Ya, don't judge a book by it's cover sounds great if no one did it. Vonleigh Simmons http://illusionart.com/ [1] No offense intended. I don't think beastie is bad in any way, I just think that it looks dated; even the lettering for FreeBSD is dated as well. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Bart Silverstrim writes: People want to change the logo from Beastie to something else because Beastie isn't professional enough, so some committers decided to hold a contest for a new logo? Beastie isn't a logo. There is no logo for FreeBSD at the moment. Creating one is probably a good idea. Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business would be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it? Overall, no. But some business owners are stupid. A more likely problem is that the devil-worship aspect of Beastie might prevent religiously fanatic potential customers from considering the OS in the first place, thus making it impossible to get a foot in the door. Once someone knows something about the operating system, I doubt that Beastie makes any difference, even among highly religious people. Would you care if a business were that dumb...would you actually *want* them using it? They could be dumb in that way, but still smart in IT. There's certainly no shortage of people in that category. Windows' logo isn't even a logo. It's a flag of a window pane falling apart in the breeze. It meets the criteria for a logo. Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not by commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector? Is FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate marketing? Would you prefer that FreeBSD remain the best kept secret on the Web? It's a good operating system ... why not promote it? It's better than Linux. It would be nice to see a technically superior product actually win, for once. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Louis LeBlanc writes: They why would they care *what* the logo is? They wouldn't; but the logo has an effect on the people who write the checks, and it serves a useful purpose as a unifying identifier. The people who write the checks don't care about skins, though, since they'll never actually use the OS. Those of us that use FreeBSD every day on our desktops for 99.999% of everything we do on a computer of any kind would be more likely to have an opinion. Some of us are so busy using FreeBSD for productive work that we don't have time to play with skins. In the server configurations for which FreeBSD is best suited, it really doesn't need any kind of GUI at all, and is more efficient without one. Which should also be obvious by the length of this and at least one other thread on the subject here on questions alone. I haven't even checked on advocacy. Most of the people here are behaving like teenage boys. Which means they are _not_ behaving anything like IT professionals or business decision makers. Regardless, I never had a problem with Beastie. I like him. He is the only mascot/logo/whatever associated with an OS (other than the window) that is actually relevant. It's cute, but it has never had any effect on my attitude towards FreeBSD. The only thing that influences me is the software (and, to a lesser extent, the attitudes of the people who produce it). -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: Tux is a mascot, not a logo. These are Linux logos: http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topiccaldera.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicdebian.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicmandrake.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicredhat.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicsuse.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicturbolinux.gif I like Red Hat the best, and SuSE is the worst, IMO. The image that is sometimes used as an all-round Linux logo is not just Tux, but rather a particular representation of Tux in combination with a logotype and an orange splash. The author of that logo is clearly aware of the distinction between a logo and a mascot: http://www-mddsp.enel.ucalgary.ca/People/adilger/logo/ These are too complex to be used as logos. Here's a page (a NetBSD logo contest entry) which addresses many of these concerns, and coincidentally underlines my point about the daemon not being exclusive to FreeBSD: http://homepage.mac.com/codesamurai/netbsd-logo-entry/ Technically very clean, but too cute. (this is so good I'm surprised NetBSD didn't adopt it, and I'd love to see it submitted to the FreeBSD logo contest) Eeuh, no. Too cute. It's important to avoid anything that looks like a cartoon. The logo displayed on the NetBSD site is a zillion times better. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Napper writes: Its been my experience that the corporate suits get the perception of teenage hacker from the cartoonish mascots. Agreed. And their perception is not always incorrect. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Anthony Atkielski wrote: Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: Tux is a mascot, not a logo. These are Linux logos: http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topiccaldera.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicdebian.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicmandrake.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicredhat.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicsuse.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicturbolinux.gif I like Red Hat the best, and SuSE is the worst, IMO. Are we forgetting about the printing aspect of things? The redhat logo has some nice gradients in it. The image that is sometimes used as an all-round Linux logo is not just Tux, but rather a particular representation of Tux in combination with a logotype and an orange splash. The author of that logo is clearly aware of the distinction between a logo and a mascot: http://www-mddsp.enel.ucalgary.ca/People/adilger/logo/ These are too complex to be used as logos. And they just plain suck, IMHO. Here's a page (a NetBSD logo contest entry) which addresses many of these concerns, and coincidentally underlines my point about the daemon not being exclusive to FreeBSD: http://homepage.mac.com/codesamurai/netbsd-logo-entry/ Technically very clean, but too cute. Riddled with opinions! :) (this is so good I'm surprised NetBSD didn't adopt it, and I'd love to see it submitted to the FreeBSD logo contest) Eeuh, no. Too cute. It's important to avoid anything that looks like a cartoon. The logo displayed on the NetBSD site is a zillion times better. More opinions!! jesus, does everyone have one of these? :) __ Frank Laszlo System Administrator The VonOstin Group Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW:http://www.vonostingroup.com Mobile: 248-863-7584 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 12:17 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Napper writes: Its been my experience that the corporate suits get the perception of teenage hacker from the cartoonish mascots. Agreed. And their perception is not always incorrect. Am I the only one that finds some amusement in the reference to corporate suits then being followed up with a comment about perception of a stereotype? :-) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Frank Laszlo writes: Are we forgetting about the printing aspect of things? The redhat logo has some nice gradients in it. The GIF I'm looking at seems to contain only red and black, except for the drop shadow, which isn't part of the logo. And they just plain suck, IMHO. They look too puerile for my tastes. But that goes pretty well with Linux. More opinions!! jesus, does everyone have one of these? I have lots of them. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Friday 11 February 2005 08:14 am, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Imagine Linux dropping Tux for some meanlingless, lifeless logo? I'm glad you asked. Tux is a mascot, not a logo. These are Linux logos: http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topiccaldera.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicdebian.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicmandrake.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicredhat.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicsuse.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicturbolinux.gif snip DES No Slackware? In my opinion, Slackware has the widest deviation in professionalism between their logo and mascot. logo(s): http://slackware.com/grfx/shared/logo.png http://store.slackware.com/images/nav/s_topleft.png mascot (pipe-smoking penguin): http://store.slackware.com/cgi-bin/store/slacklapel?id=E844B2UK:mv_pc=379 They also have a When you get serious Slackware t-shirt that I like. I wish I had thought of that for FreeBSD. http://store.slackware.com/cgi-bin/store/serious?id=E844B2UK:mv_pc=426 Andrew Gould ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
At 8:00 AM -0500 2/11/05, Bart Silverstrim wrote: Just to sum up things as I understand it... People want to change the logo from Beastie to something else because Beastie isn't professional enough, so some committers decided to hold a contest for a new logo? We thought it would be nice, after fifteen years, to see if our much-larger user base has any interesting ideas for a new logo. We thought it would be nice to reward people with a minor amount of money as a prize. Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business would be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it? Businesses are stupid. People who demand dedicated allegiance to one single cartoon image are just as stupid. Both are facts, and neither is a late-breaking news item. Someone said people change logos all the time. That's flat out wrong. When a company spends mucho dinero on marketing their logo, they don't just flip around and decide to change their logo that they spent so much money and time getting mindshare with. Have any examples of logos that have constantly changed? We do constantly see companies change their logo. That is not the same thing as saying any *one* company is constantly changing *its* logo. Apple has changed its logo. ATT changed its logo several times. GE recently changed its one-line motto. At one point, McDonalds rebuilt every one of their stores from the old golden-arches look to the newer family restaurant look -- and that cost a hell of a lot more than any logo change. Right now we're working with an image that was picked 15 years ago for a very small open-source project. We now claim to be several orders of magnitude larger than that. I doubt there is *any* company who has stuck with it's original logo as it went from five guys running a hobby to millions of users. Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not by commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector? Is FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate marketing? Some of those volunteers would like to see a new logo. Others would not. The vast majority probably do not care at all. Somehow the ones who like the present logo seem to think they can simply dismiss all comments from the other volunteers who would like a new logo, as if the work done by THOSE volunteers is somehow irrelevant. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn= [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Programmer or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rensselaer Polytechnic Instituteor [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 6:00 AM, Bart Silverstrim wrote: Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not by commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector? Is FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate marketing? Sorry, but this does not make sense. FreeBSD is driven by commercial matters. Many of the people that work on it are paid to work on it by their employers, who are using it commercially. FreeBSD will wither away if it does not continue to receive extensive commercial support like Linux gets. When is a logo technology? No one is talking about a logo steering technology or technology steering a logo. The sentence FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate marketing? is irrelevant to this discussion. You can have the best technology in the world, but if no one uses it, who cares? Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 08:00 -0500, Bart Silverstrim wrote: Someone said people change logos all the time. That's flat out wrong. When a company spends mucho dinero on marketing their logo, they don't just flip around and decide to change their logo that they spent so much money and time getting mindshare with. Have any examples of logos that have constantly changed? http://www.bellsystemmemorial.com/bell_logos.html ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
http://www.bellsystemmemorial.com/bell_logos.html I'm not sure that 6 times in 110 years is constantly changed -- If I write a signature, my emails will appear more personalised. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote: On Feb 11, 2005, at 6:00 AM, Bart Silverstrim wrote: Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not by commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector? Is FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate marketing? Sorry, but this does not make sense. FreeBSD is driven by commercial matters. Many of the people that work on it are paid to work on it by their employers, who are using it commercially. FreeBSD will wither away if it does not continue to receive extensive commercial support like Linux gets. I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid to work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby. __ Frank Laszlo System Administrator The VonOstin Group Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW:http://www.vonostingroup.com Mobile: 248-863-7584 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:04:34 -0600, Andrew L. Gould [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 11 February 2005 08:14 am, Dag-Erling Smrgrav wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Imagine Linux dropping Tux for some meanlingless, lifeless logo? I'm glad you asked. Tux is a mascot, not a logo. These are Linux logos: http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topiccaldera.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicdebian.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicmandrake.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicredhat.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicsuse.gif http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicturbolinux.gif snip DES No Slackware? In my opinion, Slackware has the widest deviation in professionalism between their logo and mascot. logo(s): http://slackware.com/grfx/shared/logo.png http://store.slackware.com/images/nav/s_topleft.png mascot (pipe-smoking penguin): http://store.slackware.com/cgi-bin/store/slacklapel?id=E844B2UK:mv_pc=379 Quite a deviation indeed, especially considering their mascot is an obvious nod to the Church of the SubGenius (http://www.subgenius.com): the true purveyors of SLACK! ;-) Cheers, Paul. -- e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Throw this posting against the wall RIGHT NOW! --- J. R. Bob Dobbs ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 15:56 -0500, Garance A Drosihn wrote: At 8:00 AM -0500 2/11/05, Bart Silverstrim wrote: [...] Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not by commercial matters, FreeBSD is a commercially viable operating system. I happen to think it's the best server OS there is - for businesses. This thread has made it seem, sometimes, as though the touch of commerce is anathema, which is silly. As I understand it, the support of commercial organisations is vital to the project. If you want a project that pisses on its sponsors, there's always OpenBSD. suddenly gain a marketing department that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector? You mean it isn't in the business sector? It's just for geeks to put on their home computers? Somebody ought to mention that to Yahoo. And let's hope nobody who is having FreeBSD pitched to them as a viable server OS for their business reads that remark as they google. Is FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate marketing? What changes would a logo require of the underlying technology of FreeBSD? That's just rhetoric. Some of those volunteers would like to see a new logo. Others would not. The vast majority probably do not care at all. Somehow the ones who like the present logo seem to think they can simply dismiss all comments from the other volunteers who would like a new logo, as if the work done by THOSE volunteers is somehow irrelevant. I haven't noticed anyone suggest that Beastie be banished, just that a proper logo might be appropriate now. Here's a suggestion: Beastie stays as the mascot. People use it as and when they wish, subject to conditions which are at the discretion of a private individual and not the FreeBSD project. And there's a new logo, as opposed to mascot, if the competition throws up one people like. By the way, thanks very much indeed for the work you're doing as a volunteer committer. Without that, we wouldn't be here burning up bandwidth on a technical support mailing list. Peter. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 2:34 PM, Frank Laszlo wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote: On Feb 11, 2005, at 6:00 AM, Bart Silverstrim wrote: Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not by commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector? Is FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate marketing? Sorry, but this does not make sense. FreeBSD is driven by commercial matters. Many of the people that work on it are paid to work on it by their employers, who are using it commercially. FreeBSD will wither away if it does not continue to receive extensive commercial support like Linux gets. I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid to work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby. many in no way means a majority. many is more than a few, where a few is a handful (3-5 or so). There are probably more than a handful who do it as more than a hobby. A lot of good people do it on their own time as well, and I salute that. But a lot of people like Yahoo and others (Apple probably) submit stuff that ends up in FreeBSD and they pay their people to do so. Lots of features, like jails as I understand it, started off by someone getting paid to implement stuff. These things then get added. best Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
At 10:09 PM -0800 2/10/05, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: While you seem determined to pretend that Robert Watson is somehow the sole person interested in this, let me note I am one of the FreeBSD committers who would like to see some new ideas for a logo. Good. At least you have my respect now for growing some balls and admitting it publically. I'm glad you are quick to show just how irrationally inflammatory you are when it comes to this issue. Would the rest of the anti-beastie committers please come out of the bushes now? PHK has commented in one of these threads. DES has also commented. One other committer commented (who I can't remember at the moment). And you love to scream about the evil Robert Watson (*), and how this is his personal double-secret plot, so I assume he must have commented. And frankly, most FreeBSD commiters do not read the -advocacy or -questions mailing lists (I never read advocacy, for instance). So maybe only three or four committers have explicitly expressed support for a LOGO CONTEST. How many committers have responded here saying just how much they hate the idea of even running the contest? And let me say once again, this is FOR a LOGO contest -- which is not the same as being Anti-beastie. All of us have said that the Beastie will remain as a mascot. Kirk and GNN are not going to recall their recent FreeBSD book simply to change the nicely- drawn Beastie on that cover to some simple FreeBSD logo. We keep saying the Beastie remains as a mascot, and you keep talking out of your ass, with its over-abundance of flying black helicopters (* - aside: it's funny how one of the other lists is praising Robert for his high-quality and informative posts, and all the hard work he has done on FreeBSD in the past few months. Those people are talking about making an archive about every one of his posts for future reference, because he constantly contributes so much useful information to end-users. But let someone suggest that he MIGHT be in favor of this PUBLIC CONTEST for a FreeBSD logo, and immediately some ungrateful bastard is treating Robert like he is evil incarnate. It is amazing just how pathetic your memory is when it comes to people who contribute so much to this project -- and you do that in defense of a cartoon image. It's a pity you have more respect for the cartoon than for the developers who work on the source code) -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Programmer or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY; USA ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
At 4:34 PM -0500 2/11/05, Frank Laszlo wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote: FreeBSD is driven by commercial matters. Many of the people that work on it are paid to work on it by their employers, who are using it commercially. I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid to work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby. ...but there is a mighty long list who would love to get paid to work on FreeBSD! :-) Many of us are paid to work on some Linux machines, and I think it would be much much nicer if we could convince our employer to go with FreeBSD instead. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn= [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Programmer or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rensselaer Polytechnic Instituteor [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: Many of the people that work on it are paid to work on it by their employers, who are using it commercially. That would mean that their employers hold a copyright in the FreeBSD code written by their employees; this is a classic implicit work-for-hire arrangement. Have these people signed an agreement with their employers that waives the work-for-hire copyright interest? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Thu, 2005-02-10 at 21:31 -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: What if they put it to a vote and the userbase all votes for logos that clearly represent the Beastie image? What will have been the point of the contest? I am a FreeBSD user. I read and sometimes respond to several of the lists. I have donated money and will continue to donate money to FreeBSD no matter what the logo will be. I also donate money and volunteer my time to Hospice. I do not get nor expect to be able to vote on any issues that may arise at a board meeting for The Hospice of Kona. Why in the world should I expect to be able to vote on whether a new logo is adopted or not? Robert ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Frank Laszlo writes: I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid to work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby. What written agreements do these committers have with their employers? Normally, if you are paid to write something by your employer, your employer owns the copyright in what you write. So unless these committers have specific agreements with their employers to the contrary, they are adding code to FreeBSD that is encumbered by copyrights owned by their employer, and can no longer be freely distributed. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Garance A Drosihn wrote: At 4:34 PM -0500 2/11/05, Frank Laszlo wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote: FreeBSD is driven by commercial matters. Many of the people that work on it are paid to work on it by their employers, who are using it commercially. I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid to work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby. ...but there is a mighty long list who would love to get paid to work on FreeBSD! :-) Many of us are paid to work on some Linux machines, and I think it would be much much nicer if we could convince our employer to go with FreeBSD instead. amen brotha. __ Frank Laszlo System Administrator The VonOstin Group Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW:http://www.vonostingroup.com Mobile: 248-863-7584 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: many in no way means a majority. many is more than a few, where a few is a handful (3-5 or so). There are probably more than a handful who do it as more than a hobby. A lot of good people do it on their own time as well, and I salute that. But a lot of people like Yahoo and others (Apple probably) submit stuff that ends up in FreeBSD and they pay their people to do so. Lots of features, like jails as I understand it, started off by someone getting paid to implement stuff. I hope people are not being as careless as you imply. Being paid to write code as an employee means relinguishing copyright in the code to one's employer. If people are actually doing this for FreeBSD, then some of the code in FreeBSD is owned by their employers, which can become a legal nightmare and stop the project dead in its tracks overnight. Aren't there any _lawyers_ working on this project? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Anthony Atkielski wrote: Frank Laszlo writes: I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid to work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby. What written agreements do these committers have with their employers? Normally, if you are paid to write something by your employer, your employer owns the copyright in what you write. So unless these committers have specific agreements with their employers to the contrary, they are adding code to FreeBSD that is encumbered by copyrights owned by their employer, and can no longer be freely distributed. I was refering to commiters paid BY FreeBSD to provide code. __ Frank Laszlo System Administrator The VonOstin Group Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW:http://www.vonostingroup.com Mobile: 248-863-7584 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:11 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: Many of the people that work on it are paid to work on it by their employers, who are using it commercially. That would mean that their employers hold a copyright in the FreeBSD code written by their employees; this is a classic implicit work-for-hire arrangement. Have these people signed an agreement with their employers that waives the work-for-hire copyright interest? Look in the codebase Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:13 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Frank Laszlo writes: I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid to work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby. What written agreements do these committers have with their employers? Normally, if you are paid to write something by your employer, your employer owns the copyright in what you write. So unless these committers have specific agreements with their employers to the contrary, they are adding code to FreeBSD that is encumbered by copyrights owned by their employer, and can no longer be freely distributed. NO. Their employers are paying them TO WORK on FreeBSD. They are not taking their code that they write for their employers and also sticking it in FreeBSD. Big difference. In the first case, they are allowing it to happen and assign the copyrights as necessary. Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:16 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: many in no way means a majority. many is more than a few, where a few is a handful (3-5 or so). There are probably more than a handful who do it as more than a hobby. A lot of good people do it on their own time as well, and I salute that. But a lot of people like Yahoo and others (Apple probably) submit stuff that ends up in FreeBSD and they pay their people to do so. Lots of features, like jails as I understand it, started off by someone getting paid to implement stuff. I hope people are not being as careless as you imply. Being paid to write code as an employee means relinguishing copyright in the code to one's employer. If people are actually doing this for FreeBSD, then some of the code in FreeBSD is owned by their employers, which can become a legal nightmare and stop the project dead in its tracks overnight. Aren't there any _lawyers_ working on this project? As an example from man jail AUTHORS The jail feature was written by Poul-Henning Kamp for RD Associates http://www.rndassociates.com/ who contributed it to FreeBSD. I would assume, but I do not know, that Poul-Henning Kamp was paid for his work. Then RD Associates contributed it to FreeBSD. I think I have read here that Yahoo has also rolled stuff back into the main line source (I do not have first hand knowledge of this). Apple also rolls stuff back into the BSD source trees. They do so knowingly and with appropriate legalese Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Frank Laszlo writes: I was refering to commiters paid BY FreeBSD to provide code. Ah ... I am reassured! You should always make that crystal-clear whenever you mention this in discussions with anybody. Any rumor started to the contrary could kill off interest in the OS in anyone considering it for anything other than home use (and sometimes even that, thanks to the MPAA and RIAA). -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: Look in the codebase No, tell me right here. CIOs aren't going to look in the codebase to try to find out if it's legal for them to use the operating system. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Friday 11 February 2005 02:16 pm, Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: many in no way means a majority. many is more than a few, where a few is a handful (3-5 or so). There are probably more than a handful who do it as more than a hobby. A lot of good people do it on their own time as well, and I salute that. But a lot of people like Yahoo and others (Apple probably) submit stuff that ends up in FreeBSD and they pay their people to do so. Lots of features, like jails as I understand it, started off by someone getting paid to implement stuff. I hope people are not being as careless as you imply. Being paid to write code as an employee means relinguishing copyright in the code to one's employer. If people are actually doing this for FreeBSD, then some of the code in FreeBSD is owned by their employers, which can become a legal nightmare and stop the project dead in its tracks overnight. Aren't there any _lawyers_ working on this project? I don't think you understand the history of FreeBSD. Many people who work at Yahoo! are committers, and their employer not only knows about this but encourages it. This is the second cartooney threat you've shot across the bow. To what end? - jt ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Friday 11 February 2005 02:13 pm, Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank Laszlo writes: I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid to work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby. What written agreements do these committers have with their employers? Normally, if you are paid to write something by your employer, your employer owns the copyright in what you write. So unless these committers have specific agreements with their employers to the contrary, they are adding code to FreeBSD that is encumbered by copyrights owned by their employer, and can no longer be freely distributed. Do you have any proof of malfeasence? Are you planning on suing someone, or is this meant to be useful in some way? - jt ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: Their employers are paying them TO WORK on FreeBSD. They are not taking their code that they write for their employers and also sticking it in FreeBSD. Big difference. Not if their work consists of writing code. In that case, the copyright in the code belongs to their employer (in the U.S., and in a number of other countries with similar provisions). Under 17 USC 101: A 'work made for hire' is (1) a work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her employment; or (2) a work specially ordered or commissioned for use as a contribution to a collective work, as a part of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, as a translation, as a supplementary work, as a compilation, as an instructional text, as a test, as answer material for a test, or as an atlas, if the parties expressly agree in a written instrument signed by them that the work shall be considered a work made for hire. [...] Note that a collective work is generally a book or a movie, not a computer operating system: A 'collective work' is a work, such as a periodical issue, anthology, or encyclopedia, in which a number of contributions, constituting separate and independent works in themselves, are assembled into a collective whole. Computer program is separately defined, which means that it is not a collective work. In the first case, they are allowing it to happen and assign the copyrights as necessary. Do they do this in writing before the code becomes a part of the project? Do they have a written agreement with their employees that explicitly waives their work-for-hire interest in the copyright? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: Sorry, but the employers are freely offering the code and assigning copyrights as necessary. OK, as long as the copyrights are assigned before any of the code finds its way into the released product. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:30 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: Look in the codebase No, tell me right here. CIOs aren't going to look in the codebase to try to find out if it's legal for them to use the operating system. You ask a dumb question, get such an answer. You make assumptions that just because someone is paying someone to work on FreeBSD that no one has thought of the copyright implications. The people running the FreeBSD project are smarter than that. And I am not your errand-boy. If you are seriously worried about this, then you need to make the investment necessary to clear your mind on the issue. Asking other people to do so is arrogant. Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:40 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: Their employers are paying them TO WORK on FreeBSD. They are not taking their code that they write for their employers and also sticking it in FreeBSD. Big difference. Not if their work consists of writing code. In that case, the copyright in the code belongs to their employer (in the U.S., and in a number of other countries with similar provisions). Yes there is a difference. If the employer assigns it to the FreeBSD project. That is what we are talking about. Under 17 USC 101: A 'work made for hire' is (1) a work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her employment; or (2) a work specially ordered or commissioned for use as a contribution to a collective work, as a part of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, as a translation, as a supplementary work, as a compilation, as an instructional text, as a test, as answer material for a test, or as an atlas, if the parties expressly agree in a written instrument signed by them that the work shall be considered a work made for hire. [...] Note that a collective work is generally a book or a movie, not a computer operating system: A 'collective work' is a work, such as a periodical issue, anthology, or encyclopedia, in which a number of contributions, constituting separate and independent works in themselves, are assembled into a collective whole. Computer program is separately defined, which means that it is not a collective work. In the first case, they are allowing it to happen and assign the copyrights as necessary. Do they do this in writing before the code becomes a part of the project? Do they have a written agreement with their employees that explicitly waives their work-for-hire interest in the copyright? I don't know. Go ask them. Look in the codebase yourself, or pay someone to do so. Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Andrew L. Gould writes: That's an assumption. The project needs to ask for proof of this, and not simply assume it. We could as easily assume that the employers: Never assume anything in law. A wrong assumption could bury the project. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Can I suggest a new mailing list - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Peter. On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 23:42 +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Andrew L. Gould writes: That's an assumption. The project needs to ask for proof of this, and not simply assume it. We could as easily assume that the employers: Never assume anything in law. A wrong assumption could bury the project. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Joshua Tinnin writes: Do you have any proof of malfeasence? I don't need it. That's the way copyright normally works; it's not malfeasance. In order to protect the project, the status of copyright in all code written for the project must be very clearly established, in writing. Are you planning on suing someone, or is this meant to be useful in some way? It's meant to protect the project from people like yourself who don't think it can ever happen to them. I've seen corporations and individuals burned badly and sometimes put out of business because of their inability or unwillingness to consider legal issues, and I'd hate to see that happen to FreeBSD. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: You ask a dumb question, get such an answer. Be sure to tell the CIOs that. That'll do wonders for adoption of FreeBSD. You make assumptions that just because someone is paying someone to work on FreeBSD that no one has thought of the copyright implications. Because I know that it happens regularly. Geeks usually know nothing about copyright and think that they are above copyright law. The people running the FreeBSD project are smarter than that. Then they are also smarter than the people running Microsoft, IBM, Adobe, Apple, Sun, and many other multibillion-dollar companies, all of which have regular problems with copyright and patent law. The difference is that these large companies can afford to defend themselves in court (and even then they sometimes lose). And I am not your errand-boy. If you are seriously worried about this, then you need to make the investment necessary to clear your mind on the issue. Asking other people to do so is arrogant. I'm trying to keep people from shooting themselves in the feet. Why is there always such hostility towards this? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:46 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Joshua Tinnin writes: I don't think you understand the history of FreeBSD. Many people who work at Yahoo! are committers, and their employer not only knows about this but encourages it. That's not good enough. The employer has to assign its copyrights as well, or waive the usual work-for-hire arrangement that is implicit for employees writing code within the scope of their work. To what end? I'd hate to see FreeBSD become unavailable because of copyright issues. A lot of organizations are buried by this type of litigation. And frankly, the cavalier attitude about such serious questions that I sometimes see displayed does not reassure me. This is not the right place to ask such questions. If you are *seriously* concerned about this, and do not think that the FreeBSD core / foundation and their lawyers have not thought about this, then you should bring it up with them, and perhaps do a little leg work yourself and go through the codebase and make sure. Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:51 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: You ask a dumb question, get such an answer. Be sure to tell the CIOs that. That'll do wonders for adoption of FreeBSD. CIOs don't hang out in public mailing lists asking such questions Chad You make assumptions that just because someone is paying someone to work on FreeBSD that no one has thought of the copyright implications. Because I know that it happens regularly. Geeks usually know nothing about copyright and think that they are above copyright law. The people running the FreeBSD project are smarter than that. Then they are also smarter than the people running Microsoft, IBM, Adobe, Apple, Sun, and many other multibillion-dollar companies, all of which have regular problems with copyright and patent law. The difference is that these large companies can afford to defend themselves in court (and even then they sometimes lose). And I am not your errand-boy. If you are seriously worried about this, then you need to make the investment necessary to clear your mind on the issue. Asking other people to do so is arrogant. I'm trying to keep people from shooting themselves in the feet. Why is there always such hostility towards this? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: I don't know. Go ask them. Look in the codebase yourself, or pay someone to do so. Is this what you would tell someone contemplating a multimillion-dollar investment in a FreeBSD rollout to 10,000 servers? I don't know? Look it up yourself? This project may need a lot more than a logo. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: This is not the right place to ask such questions. Why is it called freebsd-questions? If you are *seriously* concerned about this, and do not think that the FreeBSD core / foundation and their lawyers have not thought about this, then you should bring it up with them, and perhaps do a little leg work yourself and go through the codebase and make sure. How do I bring it up with them? Where _are_ they? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: CIOs don't hang out in public mailing lists asking such questions But some of us hanging out on such lists have to answer these questions when talking to CIOs. And saying I don't know just doesn't wash. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:56 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: CIOs don't hang out in public mailing lists asking such questions But some of us hanging out on such lists have to answer these questions when talking to CIOs. And saying I don't know just doesn't wash. And the standard answer is RTFM In this case RTFC or RTFsomething We are not your errand boys. People in this list are not the ones to answer this question. Find the appropriate people and ask them. Start at www.freebsd.org ... Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 4:14 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: And the standard answer is RTFM I don't know of anything in the manuals or on the Web site that answers this type of question. Typical. Cut out the rest of what I said. You need to ask the right people, not this list. To find out who the right people are, you should RTFM or in the case RTFWS Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
athony atkielski =~ /tm452\d/ ? -- If I write a signature, my emails will appear more personalised. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 11, 2005, at 6:14 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: And the standard answer is RTFM I don't know of anything in the manuals or on the Web site that answers this type of question. This is a mailing list for questions about how to use FreeBSD, not why you should or shouldn't use FreeBSD. We generally don't care if you use FreeBSD or not. -- Michael Conlen ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: And the standard answer is RTFM I don't know of anything in the manuals or on the Web site that answers this type of question. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
At 10:59 AM -0500 2/10/05, Louis LeBlanc wrote: Logos need to be as neutral as possible, since they will be very widely used and very heavily imprinted in customers' minds. They must not conjure up thoughts of anything except the brand they represent. Neutrality is purely objective in this case (and many others). Uninformed neutrality can be highly inflammatory. Beastie is only considered inflammatory to those uninformed fundamentalists who haven't been satisfied beating down every other freedom in this country and need someone or something else to pick on. Next they'll be burning books and witches again. It is interesting that I constantly hear FreeBSD MUST have the Beastie as the only logo for FreeBSD. We MUST NOT even consider any other logo -- because if we consider ANY other logo, we will be close-minded!. So, there is one-and-only-one valid logo for FreeBSD, and that is because FreeBSD is so very open-minded? Note that the contest is just to see what logos people can come up with. It's not like we are demanding that the logo must have angels in it, or a picture of some other religious figure. Nothing more than Let's see what ideas people can come up with. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Programmer or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY; USA ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On 02/10/05 02:26 PM, Garance A Drosehn sat at the `puter and typed: At 10:59 AM -0500 2/10/05, Louis LeBlanc wrote: Logos need to be as neutral as possible, since they will be very widely used and very heavily imprinted in customers' minds. They must not conjure up thoughts of anything except the brand they represent. Neutrality is purely objective in this case (and many others). Uninformed neutrality can be highly inflammatory. Beastie is only considered inflammatory to those uninformed fundamentalists who haven't been satisfied beating down every other freedom in this country and need someone or something else to pick on. Next they'll be burning books and witches again. It is interesting that I constantly hear FreeBSD MUST have the Beastie as the only logo for FreeBSD. We MUST NOT even consider any other logo -- because if we consider ANY other logo, we will be close-minded!. I don't remember ever being accused of close mindedness. Being open or closed minded has nothing to do with this. The issue of replacing Beastie has come up in the past, and in my opinion, the reasons have always been all wrong. I, along with a lot of other members of the community feel strongly enough about it to voice our opinions every time this comes up. So, there is one-and-only-one valid logo for FreeBSD, and that is because FreeBSD is so very open-minded? The logo is what it is. It has been the logo, and Beastie himself the mascot, since long before I started using FreeBSD, and is considerd by many to be an integral part of FreeBSDs identity. Granted, changing a logo isn't always a bad thing, but doing it for the wrong reasons is. It is my not so humble opinion that changing your identity to suit an overly sensitive vocal minority is always the wrong reason. On that I'm afraid maybe I am close minded. Note that the contest is just to see what logos people can come up with. It's not like we are demanding that the logo must have angels in it, or a picture of some other religious figure. Nothing more than Let's see what ideas people can come up with. Now, you see, mentioning angels is really a good point. The problem I have there is that angels are strictly a modern religious symbol. Daemons are not. At least not with anything anyone considers a modern religion - it's more widely associated with an ancient mythos, but the concept is relevant to the OS, and that's the thing about Beastie that makes him perfect for FreeBSD. Demons are modern religious symbols, Devils are, the cross used by christians is. It's not reasonable to suppress something *outside* your system of beliefs just because something negative *within* your system of beliefs is based on it. That's what I see happening, and why I'm vehemently and vocally opposed to the change. If there were a *reasonable* basis for changing, I would be in favor of the proposed change. Sadly, but in favor nonetheless. The business reasons mentioned are not sound given the fact that there are *real* devils used as mascots and logos in the food, sports, and other industries. The issue of religious sensibilities is plain ridiculous, given that Beastie is completely unrelated to the (mythos'/faiths/religions) those objections are based on. As I said, next they'll be burning books and witches again. Lou -- Louis LeBlanc FreeBSD-at-keyslapper-DOT-net Fully Funded Hobbyist, KeySlapper Extrordinaire :) Please send off-list email to: leblanc at keyslapper d.t net Key fingerprint = C5E7 4762 F071 CE3B ED51 4FB8 AF85 A2FE 80C8 D9A2 share, n.: To give in, endure humiliation. pgpATJxDJWeRg.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Louis LeBlanc writes: If there were a *reasonable* basis for changing, I would be in favor of the proposed change. Sadly, but in favor nonetheless. The business reasons mentioned are not sound given the fact that there are *real* devils used as mascots and logos in the food, sports, and other industries. The devil aspect is unimportant. What is important is that there is a need for a simple and flexible logo for brand identification. The current Beastie image, besides being inconsistent, is almost totally unsuitable for the technologies with which a logo must be used. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
At 12:50 AM -0800 2/10/05, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: It is clear from reading both lists that much of the anger is based upon false assumptions, misinformation and incomplete editing of the leaked document. Sorry, but that is false. Much of the anger is based on Robert Watson (and whatever other core members are arguing with him over this) not IMMEDIATELY becoming completely forthright with the FreeBSD community as soon as the leak occurred. Geez. Get real. One committer had *just* put up the site, and then other committers were given a chance to look it over and see if it all made sense. We wanted to given all committers a chance to cross-check it, and make sure we didn't forget to say anything important. What is up there right now is nothing more than a first draft. As far as I know, Robert responded on the same day that I found out that this rough-draft site had been mentioned in public. It's not like we've had six months of denials, with press-reporters hounding Robert every night on the evening news. Perhaps it was announced on slashdot a few days earlier, but frankly, I (for one) never read slashdot. That is not any conspiracy, it is simply that I don't have the time. I (for one) did not know the contest's web site was leaked until the article showed up at the bsdnews.com site. BSDnews. I work on BSD operating systems, so that's the web site that I read. I am deeply concerned with what I see going on here. Since when has the FreeBSD Project had secret information of a sales and marketing nature? This is a brand new one to me. What a crazy thing to say. The whole purpose of this web site was to announce a PUBLIC CONTEST for ANYONE to submit their ideas for a possible new logo. Once we DID announce it, the public would have had 1-3 months to hash out whatever they wanted to hash out. (One of the reasons we had not already announced this web site is that we were still deciding how long that period should be. It started as one month, but I think now we're thinking maybe two or two-and-a-half months). I can condone secrets in the area of leaglities - such as back in the bad old days when UCB was sued by USL, there were many secrets, a few that I and some others were able to ferret out but still many buried, and still some people under gag orders. Man, you must see a lot of black helicopters every day you walk to work. It is not a deep dark secret to proof-read a web site before ANNOUNCING TO EVERYONE that they might WIN MONEY(!!) by reading that web site. Geez. I proof-read this message before I post it, and I'm only replying to comments from one moron with black helicopters flying out of his ass. How much more time should be spent proof- reading a public site which we intend to point everyone at? Yes I understand that some commercial consultants and such have had problems due to the logo being a devil image. But if Robert Watson had wanted to respond to this then he should have brought it up for discussion with the userbase immediately, not sneaked around talking to his cronies at Apple Computer, trying to figure out how to push this off onto the userbase in a way that people wouldn't object to doing so. It is apparent that you are not interested in any facts, but Robert was not one of the main promoters of this idea. In fact, I don't remember him saying much of anything about it at the time we (FreeBSD committers) were debating it. This logo competition is childish - 99% of the FreeBSD community members are not graphic artists and couldn't draw their way out of a paper bag - such a competition does not have as it's goal that of obtaining an image, it's only goal is assuaging pissed off people by pretending that they have a hand in the decision. More black helicopters. Geez. I expect all the submissions will be public, and then we (the committers) will pick the one we like the best. It is unquestionably true that I (for one) have no artistic talent. However, that does not mean that I can not possibly know anyone who makes a full-time living as a well-paid graphic artist. Nope. That simply must not be possible, even though RPI offers a degree in Electronic Arts. And therefore it absolutely *must* be true that this contest will come up with a hand-drawn stick-figure logo. And it *must* be true that we've already picked that pathetic logo, and we're just announcing this contest as a cover story. Yep. It must be true. Ted says so. What a stupid position to take. [aside: a few years ago I paid one of my friends to draw up an idea I had for a logo, using malamutes, but we never did come up with something that we were really happy with. So nothing became of that. But he has drawn up other very nice things for me. So just because I cannot draw, does not mean I cannot find anyone to draw for me...] You might remember that the bsdnews.com site used to have a very nicely drawn cartoon strip. Extremely well drawn, IMO. It is a pity that you apparently don't get out enough to meet
RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
At 12:50 AM -0800 2/10/05, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
No, sorry. The core team apparently feels that the way to do things
now is to made decisions of this nature first, then have discussion
later, rather than the reverse which previously has been the case.
This contest came out because the developers who actually work on
freebsd had a very energetic debate on the topic. Core stepped in
before we started throwing pies at each other, and came up with
this idea: *Keep* Beastie as the official mascot, but then have a
PUBLIC CONTEST
open to EVERYONE
to see if we might also come up with some alternate logo.
However, as the core team as apparently represented by R Watson
has stated they want to consider this internally first, then
just tell the userbase what they are going to do later on, I
say screw you, and I'll argue and fight against this topic for
years.
How silly. Internally means among all the committers who spend
their time, effort, and money making commits to the FreeBSD project.
It does not mean Robert Watson talked to his navel, and they agreed
on this course of action.
The actual developers. The people you pretend to respect, unless
anyone one of them has a single idea which might disagree with you.
While you seem determined to pretend that Robert Watson is somehow
the sole person interested in this, let me note I am one of the
FreeBSD committers who would like to see some new ideas for a logo.
Now if nothing particularly special comes from this contest, then
fine, at least we *tried*. But apparently you think we're not even
supposed to try.
Why would I like some other logo? Because in addition to committing
the occasional patch to FreeBSD (totalling some 500+ commits), I do
public presentations to groups of non-FreeBSD'ers about FreeBSD. I
am trying to promote FreeBSD -- THE OPERATING SYSTEM -- and I am
tired of spending my time explaining some cartoon character. I am
in this project because of the quality of the operating system, and
NOT because I have some deranged need to defend some in joke about
daemons.
As I said on the committers mailing list when we were debating this
topic: The beastie icon does *not* separate close-minded people
from open-minded people. It does *not* separate the religious
people from non-religious people. It does not even separate
Christian people from non-Christian people. The only thing
that logo does is separate People who already know Unix from
People who have never heard of a daemon process. It is nothing
more than an in joke, where we can feel smug about how smart
we are when some poor goober is stupid enough to ask So why do
you use some cute-looking demon for your icon?.
When I have done public presentations for FreeBSD, I have never had
anyone reject FreeBSD because of the deamon. Not once. And if I
am talking to a group of Unix-people, I don't even have to explain
the beastie icon.
On the other hand, I do sometimes get people who have no experience
with Unix. And those people will look at me like I am still some
kid trying to defend the Major Matt Mason as being an action figure
instead of a doll. Their attitude is Okay -- so unix has these
things called a 'daemon process' -- but I still don't get why is it
so important that your icon must be this cartoon. They would have
the exact same attitude if we happened to call those processes 'a buzz
process', and then made our icon be Buzz Lightyear. The religious
connotation is not relevant, because most the people I talk to are
simply not all that religious. And yet they still look at me like
I am nuts when I am explaining the logo, and I see no reason I should
continue to waste my time giving people a lesson in the history of
the word 'daemon'. I am a programmer, not a teacher of linguistics
or word-history.
--
Garance Alistair Drosehn = [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Senior Systems Programmer or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY; USA
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RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Garance A Drosehn Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 11:26 AM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!! It is interesting that I constantly hear FreeBSD MUST have the Beastie as the only logo for FreeBSD. We MUST NOT even consider any other logo -- because if we consider ANY other logo, we will be close-minded!. That is so not true that it makes me almost as angry as the original debate. Go read Advocacy, where all this started, I made a post there which specifically called for the people offended by the beastie image to go design their politically correct logo, and to use it with their dealings with their customers. Nobody in the pro-beastie camp is saying they can't do this. What is actually happening is the people offended by the beastie image are asking the rest of us to stop using it as a logo and substitute some watered-down PC version of it that (at least this year) supposedly offends no one and will become the 'official logo' So, there is one-and-only-one valid logo for FreeBSD, and that is because FreeBSD is so very open-minded? There can be only ONE 'flagship' logo just as there is only one company name in a conglomerate. But there is plenty of space for different subsidiary marks for the product. For example, Chevrolet, Buick, Saturn, these are all part of General Motors. However they have their own distinct brands and logos and such. But, there is only ONE name for the company - GM - that is used when talking about the -entire- enchalada. Note that the contest is just to see what logos people can come up with. It's not like we are demanding that the logo must have angels in it, or a picture of some other religious figure. Nothing more than Let's see what ideas people can come up with. And if some of the suggestions reproduce Beastie in all his un-politically correct glory, what then? What if they put it to a vote and the userbase all votes for logos that clearly represent the Beastie image? What will have been the point of the contest? You know darn well your blowing air on the contest. Unless the contest admins deliberately filter out and restrict all beastie likenesses, the contest will be dominated with Beasties. And unless they don't put it to the userbase for a vote, the userbase will go for beastie. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
-Original Message- From: Garance A Drosehn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 1:17 PM To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org Subject: RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!! At 12:50 AM -0800 2/10/05, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: It is clear from reading both lists that much of the anger is based upon false assumptions, misinformation and incomplete editing of the leaked document. Sorry, but that is false. Much of the anger is based on Robert Watson (and whatever other core members are arguing with him over this) not IMMEDIATELY becoming completely forthright with the FreeBSD community as soon as the leak occurred. Geez. Get real. One committer had *just* put up the site, and then other committers were given a chance to look it over and see if it all made sense. We wanted to given all committers a chance to cross-check it, and make sure we didn't forget to say anything important. Thank you Garance for being a bit more forthright with the community, in a grudging sort of way I guess. I am deeply concerned with what I see going on here. Since when has the FreeBSD Project had secret information of a sales and marketing nature? This is a brand new one to me. What a crazy thing to say. The whole purpose of this web site was to announce a PUBLIC CONTEST for ANYONE to submit their ideas for a possible new logo. Once we DID announce it, the public would have had 1-3 months to hash out whatever they wanted to hash out. And of course, the logo selected will not have Beastie in it. That does not sound like anyone is free to submit their ideas for a possible new logo. That sounds like anyone is free to submit their ideas that happen to fall into your guy's pre-decided idea of what the new logo will look like. I can condone secrets in the area of leaglities - such as back in the bad old days when UCB was sued by USL, there were many secrets, a few that I and some others were able to ferret out but still many buried, and still some people under gag orders. Man, you must see a lot of black helicopters every day you walk to work. It is not a deep dark secret to proof-read a web site before ANNOUNCING TO EVERYONE that they might WIN MONEY(!!) by reading that web site. Geez. I proof-read this message before I post it, and I'm only replying to comments from one moron with black helicopters flying out of his ass. And yet in this posting you have publically stated some things that were not revealed yesterday in Advocacy or here. Yet you claim there's no secrets. Right. How much more time should be spent proof- reading a public site which we intend to point everyone at? Despite all prostations to the contrary this issue has nothing to do with proofreading. Yes I understand that some commercial consultants and such have had problems due to the logo being a devil image. But if Robert Watson had wanted to respond to this then he should have brought it up for discussion with the userbase immediately, not sneaked around talking to his cronies at Apple Computer, trying to figure out how to push this off onto the userbase in a way that people wouldn't object to doing so. It is apparent that you are not interested in any facts, but Robert was not one of the main promoters of this idea. In fact, I don't remember him saying much of anything about it at the time we (FreeBSD committers) were debating it. Then I guess at least Robert had the balls yesterday to get out and take the heat for something he wasn't promoting - shielding the rest of you cowards who are promoting it yet are not willing to admit it on any of the forums that the userbase frequents and get your shorts flamed off. This logo competition is childish - 99% of the FreeBSD community members are not graphic artists and couldn't draw their way out of a paper bag - such a competition does not have as it's goal that of obtaining an image, it's only goal is assuaging pissed off people by pretending that they have a hand in the decision. More black helicopters. Geez. I expect all the submissions will be public, and then we (the committers) will pick the one we like the best. Exactly. You committers will pick whatever you want and not what the userbase wants. That is why people are spitting mad on this. You might remember that the bsdnews.com site used to have a very nicely drawn cartoon strip. Extremely well drawn, IMO. It is a pity that you apparently don't get out enough to meet other people, but some of us do know people who are very artistic. Some of them even (*gasp*) USE FreeBSD. Maybe those users can't write a program, but they might like to contribute *THEIR* talents to the project. What would be wrong with that? And if all they can come up with is more renditions of Beastie, then you guys are going to be in trouble I guess, since none of you can draw as you
RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
-Original Message-
From: Garance A Drosehn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 1:17 PM
To: Ted Mittelstaedt; freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org
Subject: RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as
NetBSD!!!
At 12:50 AM -0800 2/10/05, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
No, sorry. The core team apparently feels that the way to do things
now is to made decisions of this nature first, then have discussion
later, rather than the reverse which previously has been the case.
This contest came out because the developers who actually work on
freebsd had a very energetic debate on the topic. Core stepped in
before we started throwing pies at each other, and came up with
this idea: *Keep* Beastie as the official mascot, but then have a
PUBLIC CONTEST
open to EVERYONE
to see if we might also come up with some alternate logo.
However, as the core team as apparently represented by R Watson
has stated they want to consider this internally first, then
just tell the userbase what they are going to do later on, I
say screw you, and I'll argue and fight against this topic for
years.
How silly. Internally means among all the committers who spend
their time, effort, and money making commits to the FreeBSD project.
It does not mean Robert Watson talked to his navel, and they agreed
on this course of action.
The actual developers. The people you pretend to respect, unless
anyone one of them has a single idea which might disagree with you.
The postings among the userbase in questions and advocacy are
mainly agreeing with me and not with you. The users you pretend to
respect unless you have a single idea which disagrees with them.
While you seem determined to pretend that Robert Watson is somehow
the sole person interested in this, let me note I am one of the
FreeBSD committers who would like to see some new ideas for a logo.
Good. At least you have my respect now for growing some balls and
admitting it publically. Would the rest of the
anti-beastie committers please come out of the bushes now?
Now if nothing particularly special comes from this contest, then
fine, at least we *tried*. But apparently you think we're not even
supposed to try.
No, I think that you are welcome to try but you aren't welcome to
take whatever you get and replace the logo of Beastie, (and I don't
mean the stylized pictures of him that aren't logos, I mean the
logo picture that WC and BSDI used for years, and is still on the
index page of the FreeBSD website) as the flagship logo of FreeBSD.
FreeBSD is big enough to have multiple logos. But there is only
one logo that is the central, main, flagship logo. Any non-beastie
logo you come up with should never be used except in instances
where the beastie logo is absolutely unacceptable to some commercial
enterprise, and a logo is a requirement.
Why would I like some other logo? Because in addition to committing
the occasional patch to FreeBSD (totalling some 500+ commits), I do
public presentations to groups of non-FreeBSD'ers about FreeBSD. I
am trying to promote FreeBSD -- THE OPERATING SYSTEM -- and I am
tired of spending my time explaining some cartoon character. I am
in this project because of the quality of the operating system, and
NOT because I have some deranged need to defend some in joke about
daemons.
It surprises me you feel the need to use a logo at all in these
instances.
As I said on the committers mailing list when we were debating this
topic: The beastie icon does *not* separate close-minded people
from open-minded people. It does *not* separate the religious
people from non-religious people. It does not even separate
Christian people from non-Christian people. The only thing
that logo does is separate People who already know Unix from
People who have never heard of a daemon process.
Perhaps.
It is nothing
more than an in joke, where we can feel smug about how smart
we are when some poor goober is stupid enough to ask So why do
you use some cute-looking demon for your icon?.
The daemon image far predates FreeBSD or
any of the BSD's for that matter and goes right back to Ma Bell. Greg
documented it back to 1976, and I do not recall the daemons on the
front cover of the early BSD manuals to have much cuteness factor
to them.
Perhaps at one time it was an in-joke but then, so was the name of
UNIX itself an in-joke The name UNIX has grown beyond this as
has use of the daemon image.
When I have done public presentations for FreeBSD, I have never had
anyone reject FreeBSD because of the deamon. Not once. And if I
am talking to a group of Unix-people, I don't even have to explain
the beastie icon.
On the other hand, I do sometimes get people who have no experience
with Unix. And those people will look at me like I am still some
kid trying to defend the Major Matt Mason as being an action
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: That is so not true that it makes me almost as angry as the original debate. Maybe getting angry about a mere logo is a bad sign. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
This will sign the death of FreeBSD. How could they believe such crap?! Who said beastie is evil?! This is totally non-sense, it's a logo, it's not the CD cover of a heavy-metal release...! I think the reasons are the same as NetBSD. Do extremist Republicans threaten BSD distros? The word daemon in greek means server (the person, not the hardware). This is neither good nor bad, if it has to be either one, then it's good. Oh please, wake me up, it's a nightmare!!! ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Charles-André Landemaine wrote: This will sign the death of FreeBSD. How could they believe such crap?! Who said beastie is evil?! This is totally non-sense, it's a logo, it's not the CD cover of a heavy-metal release...! I think the reasons are the same as NetBSD. Do extremist Republicans threaten BSD distros? The word daemon in greek means server (the person, not the hardware). This is neither good nor bad, if it has to be either one, then it's good. Oh please, wake me up, it's a nightmare!!! See the thread The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. in -advocacy - I've already replied with my views on the subject, along the same lines as your comments. Mark --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0506-0, 08/02/2005 Tested on: 09/02/2005 18:48:20 avast! - copyright (c) 2000-2004 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On 02/09/05 04:32 PM, Charles-André Landemaine sat at the `puter and typed: This will sign the death of FreeBSD. How could they believe such crap?! Who said beastie is evil?! This is totally non-sense, it's a logo, it's not the CD cover of a heavy-metal release...! I think the reasons are the same as NetBSD. Do extremist Republicans threaten BSD distros? The word daemon in greek means server (the person, not the hardware). This is neither good nor bad, if it has to be either one, then it's good. Uh, not to be rude, but what the hell are you talking about? I don't remember anyone talking about changing the logo. Except the occasional fundy trying to throw the idea into the list every couple months using every tone from appeasement to outright fire and brimstone. I've never seen anyone take it seriously. Everyone here knows all the history of the word, many know the history of Beastie himself, and so far as I know, none have any plans to change him. Oh please, wake me up, it's a nightmare!!! So Wake Up. -- Louis LeBlanc FreeBSD-at-keyslapper-DOT-net Fully Funded Hobbyist, KeySlapper Extrordinaire :) Please send off-list email to: leblanc at keyslapper d.t net Key fingerprint = C5E7 4762 F071 CE3B ED51 4FB8 AF85 A2FE 80C8 D9A2 Bagdikian's Observation: Trying to be a first-rate reporter on the average American newspaper is like trying to play Bach's St. Matthew Passion on a ukelele. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:48:19 +, Mark Ovens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: See the thread The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. in -advocacy - I've already replied with my views on the subject, along the same lines as your comments. I'm not subscribed to -advocacy can you provide me with an archive link to this thread in question? I wasn't able to find it based on the subject you provided. -CM ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
well, i am quite new to freebsd, one of the things that got me curious enough to give it a try was the current logo, i like the beastie, it just has the perfect all around look, so why change it? never change a running system Greetings Oliver Leitner Technical Staff http://www.shells.at On Wednesday 09 February 2005 19:32, Charles-André Landemaine wrote: This will sign the death of FreeBSD. How could they believe such crap?! Who said beastie is evil?! This is totally non-sense, it's a logo, it's not the CD cover of a heavy-metal release...! I think the reasons are the same as NetBSD. Do extremist Republicans threaten BSD distros? The word daemon in greek means server (the person, not the hardware). This is neither good nor bad, if it has to be either one, then it's good. Oh please, wake me up, it's a nightmare!!! ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- By reading this mail you agree to the following: using or giving out the email address and any other info of the author of this email is strictly forbidden. By acting against this agreement the author of this mail will take possible legal actions against the abuse. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
See the thread The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. in -advocacy - I've already replied with my views on the subject, along the same lines as your comments. I'm not subscribed to -advocacy can you provide me with an archive link to this thread in question? I wasn't able to find it based on the subject you provided. You can follow this post at: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy/2005-February/ -- -jpeg. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Charles-André Landemaine wrote: How could they believe such crap?! Who said beastie is evil?! This is totally non-sense, it's a logo, it's not the CD cover of a heavy-metal release...! Not all Heavy-Metal releases and/or bands are evil nor good, you know! You just expressed the same crap about Heavy-Metal, as what other's are expressing about beastie. -- Cheers, MetalMick E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Site: www.deathnet.id.au ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
See the thread The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. in -advocacy - I've already replied with my views on the subject, along the same lines as your comments. I'm not subscribed to -advocacy can you provide me with an archive link to this thread in question? I wasn't able to find it based on the subject you provided. JG You can follow this post at: JG http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy/2005-February/ - quoteAnd this daemon character seems cute from somebody's point of view, but somebody may think which does not suit for the professional products to indicate that are using the FreeBSD inside./quote Not my line of thought. I like the logo and its charm :) Hexren ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Scratch that. Found it. Most heinous dude. I have some more colorful expressions, but I wouldn't want to offend anyone's sensitivities. Lou -- Louis LeBlanc FreeBSD-at-keyslapper-DOT-net Fully Funded Hobbyist, KeySlapper Extrordinaire :) Please send off-list email to: leblanc at keyslapper d.t net Key fingerprint = C5E7 4762 F071 CE3B ED51 4FB8 AF85 A2FE 80C8 D9A2 Genius, n.: A chemist who discovers a laundry additive that rhymes with bright. pgp6wnT6t8zeF.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Louis LeBlanc wrote: On 02/09/05 04:32 PM, Charles-André Landemaine sat at the `puter and typed: This will sign the death of FreeBSD. How could they believe such crap?! Who said beastie is evil?! This is totally non-sense, it's a logo, it's not the CD cover of a heavy-metal release...! I think the reasons are the same as NetBSD. Do extremist Republicans threaten BSD distros? The word daemon in greek means server (the person, not the hardware). This is neither good nor bad, if it has to be either one, then it's good. Uh, not to be rude, but what the hell are you talking about? I don't remember anyone talking about changing the logo. http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/announce.txt Read it and weep. Mark --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0506-0, 08/02/2005 Tested on: 09/02/2005 19:11:10 avast! - copyright (c) 2000-2004 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Wednesday 09 February 2005 20:07, Hexren wrote: See the thread The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. in -advocacy - I've already replied with my views on the subject, along the same lines as your comments. I'm not subscribed to -advocacy can you provide me with an archive link to this thread in question? I wasn't able to find it based on the subject you provided. JG You can follow this post at: JG http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy/2005-February/ - quoteAnd this daemon character seems cute from somebody's point of view, but somebody may think which does not suit for the professional products to indicate that are using the FreeBSD inside./quote i know a certain penguin who doesnt look professional at all and is the most famous animal in it scene by now. Not my line of thought. I like the logo and its charm :) Hexren ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- By reading this mail you agree to the following: using or giving out the email address and any other info of the author of this email is strictly forbidden. By acting against this agreement the author of this mail will take possible legal actions against the abuse. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Charles-André Landemaine wrote: This will sign the death of FreeBSD. Oh please, wake me up, it's a nightmare!!! Come on now, is changing the logo ALL that BAD? Companies and organizations do it all the time. Who cares? It's not like a new logo will introduce new bugs and vulnerabilities in your OS! Change is good. Time to try something different. I think some folks should relax and not get too upset. There are worse things going on in the world... ...my 2 cents... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Wednesday 09 February 2005 12:58 pm, Julien Gabel wrote: See the thread The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. in -advocacy - I've already replied with my views on the subject, along the same lines as your comments. I'm not subscribed to -advocacy can you provide me with an archive link to this thread in question? I wasn't able to find it based on the subject you provided. You can follow this post at: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy/2005-February/ I like the daemon, and would like it to remain FreeBSD's mascot. However, I don't see a problem with separating the logo from the mascot. A decent example of this is Slackware's logo, which is separate from their pipe smoking penguin. Check out both the Serious Slackware and Got Slack t-shirts at the link below. Each t-shirt represents Slackware in a different light. Both are still correct; but one is certainly more business friendly. http://store.slackware.com/cgi-bin/store/search?id=sPyZ7iNL:mv_pc=229 Having a professional looking logo would make advocacy easier. People do have their prejudices; and if people misunderstand the daemon, then it is not representing FreeBSD effectively. We should be able to have both without feeling like we sold out. I'll stop here and sign up for the advocacy mailing list. Andrew Gould ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
if we dont take care of the little things around us, what right do we have to be upset on the bigger ones? On Wednesday 09 February 2005 20:28, sp0ng3b0b wrote: Charles-André Landemaine wrote: This will sign the death of FreeBSD. Oh please, wake me up, it's a nightmare!!! Come on now, is changing the logo ALL that BAD? Companies and organizations do it all the time. Who cares? It's not like a new logo will introduce new bugs and vulnerabilities in your OS! Change is good. Time to try something different. I think some folks should relax and not get too upset. There are worse things going on in the world... ...my 2 cents... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- By reading this mail you agree to the following: using or giving out the email address and any other info of the author of this email is strictly forbidden. By acting against this agreement the author of this mail will take possible legal actions against the abuse. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
I think we all are happy with beastie, there is no reason to change it, if some idiots think it's evil, that's their problem. I hope no one sends a new logo for the contest, and if what FreeBSD Project wants is a new FreeBSD type of font, or style, then do it, but don't blow beastie away. It would be better to give beastie a BSD license :) On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 20:29:18 +0100, Oliver Leitner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if we dont take care of the little things around us, what right do we have to be upset on the bigger ones? On Wednesday 09 February 2005 20:28, sp0ng3b0b wrote: Charles-André Landemaine wrote: This will sign the death of FreeBSD. Oh please, wake me up, it's a nightmare!!! Come on now, is changing the logo ALL that BAD? Companies and organizations do it all the time. Who cares? It's not like a new logo will introduce new bugs and vulnerabilities in your OS! Change is good. Time to try something different. I think some folks should relax and not get too upset. There are worse things going on in the world... ...my 2 cents... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- By reading this mail you agree to the following: using or giving out the email address and any other info of the author of this email is strictly forbidden. By acting against this agreement the author of this mail will take possible legal actions against the abuse. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- --- Guillermo García Rojas Covarrubias Director General SoloBSD http://www.solobsd.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Feb 9, 2005, at 1:56 PM, Chad Morland wrote: On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:48:19 +, Mark Ovens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: See the thread The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. in -advocacy - I've already replied with my views on the subject, along the same lines as your comments. I'm not subscribed to -advocacy can you provide me with an archive link to this thread in question? I wasn't able to find it based on the subject you provided. Put freebsd advocacy into Google, click on the link for the list, click on the link for the archive, and check out February's posts. There are a total of 4 posts listed, 3 of them with the Subject: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. How hard was that ? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 11:28:37AM -0800, sp0ng3b0b wrote: Change is good. Time to try something different. I think some folks should relax and not get too upset. There are worse things going on in the world... Nope. Beastie is a way of life. I'd be quite upset if it were dropped for whatever reason. It is so intimately tied to FreeBSD that it would be a PR disaster if it were to be changed. NetBSD never had a real logo, and it's their choice (though IMHO not a very good one; even a toaster would have been better!), but changing FreeBSD's most widely recognized brand would be just plain stupid. Imagine Linux dropping Tux for some meanlingless, lifeless logo? Hands off from our beloved Beastie! ...my 2 cents... Regards, -cpghost. -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
Le 09/02/2005 à 16:32:42-0200, Charles-André Landemaine a écrit This will sign the death of FreeBSD. How could they believe such crap?! Who said beastie is evil?! This is totally non-sense, it's a logo, it's not the CD cover of a heavy-metal release...! I think the reasons are the same as NetBSD. Do extremist Republicans threaten BSD distros? The word daemon in greek means server (the person, not the hardware). This is neither good nor bad, if it has to be either one, then it's good. Oh please, wake me up, it's a nightmare!!! I'm totally agree. I very don't understand why many people need to change something like a logo. My 1/10 cents -- Albert SHIH Universite de Paris 7 (Denis DIDEROT) U.F.R. de Mathematiques. Heure local/Local time: Wed Feb 9 22:28:23 CET 2005 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!
On Wednesday 09 February 2005 21:06, Timothy Luoma wrote: On Feb 9, 2005, at 1:56 PM, Chad Morland wrote: On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:48:19 +, Mark Ovens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: See the thread The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. in -advocacy - I've already replied with my views on the subject, along the same lines as your comments. I'm not subscribed to -advocacy can you provide me with an archive link to this thread in question? I wasn't able to find it based on the subject you provided. Put freebsd advocacy into Google, click on the link for the list, click on the link for the archive, and check out February's posts. There are a total of 4 posts listed, 3 of them with the Subject: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. How hard was that ? please take this thread elsewhere...anywhere ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
