Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Matthias Buelow]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Nope. Beastie is a way of life. I'd be quite upset if it were dropped
for whatever reason. It is so intimately tied to FreeBSD that it would
be a PR disaster if it were to be changed. NetBSD never had a real
The BSD daemon image stems from around 4.3BSD, or an even earlier 
release, not FreeBSD.  It can therefore never be specific for the 
FreeBSD system, in the same way Ronald McDonald doesn't stand for the 
Big Mac alone, but rather for the entire company.  In earlier years, 
before the general hype about Linux and *BSD, I've seen the image being 
used in presentations about Unix in general.

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RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Garance A Drosehn]

At 2:06 AM -0800 2/12/05, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
For the last time, it is not the contest that I and others are
objecting to.
I am glad to hear that this message was the last time you
mention it.  Thanks.
--
Garance Alistair Drosehn =  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Senior Systems Programmer   or   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY;  USA
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes:

> Are you intentionally misinterpreting me?

No, I'm correcting you.

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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Bart Silverstrim]

On Feb 11, 2005, at 4:51 PM, Peter Risdon wrote:
On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 15:56 -0500, Garance A Drosihn wrote:
At 8:00 AM -0500 2/11/05, Bart Silverstrim wrote:
[...]
Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and
not by commercial matters,
FreeBSD is a commercially viable operating system. I happen to think
it's the best server OS there is - for businesses. This thread has made
it seem, sometimes, as though the touch of commerce is anathema, which
is silly. As I understand it, the support of commercial organisations 
is
vital to the project. If you want a project that pisses on its 
sponsors,
there's always OpenBSD.
I didn't say it wasn't commercially viable.  What I said was that it 
was driven by the volunteers.

Commercial support isn't being "pissed on".  BUT it can easily taint it 
when a commercial sponsor goes from *just* supporting to saying they'll 
support more if...and more if this...and that...oh, and you don't want 
that person over there on the commit list because he's not a team 
player.  And yes, I'm overdramatizing to try to make a point.

If they want to support it, that's great. But the thing I don't want to 
see (and I hope others don't want to see) is FreeBSD starting to have 
it's priorities driven by commercial interests or a group of people who 
want to mess with something solely because it's not their definition of 
politically correct.

The difference between driven by volunteers and driven by commercial 
interests is that commercial interests will cater to the user and give 
them what they want.  The volunteers give them what they need.  What 
they want yields products like Windows, so hobbled by bandages and 
bandaids for backward compatibility and security breaches to support 
their "ease of use" mantra that it is...well...crappy for use anywhere 
but the desktop.  What they need yields servers that are reliable and 
robust and minimize unscheduled downtime.

suddenly gain a marketing department
that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector?
You mean it isn't in the business sector? It's just for geeks to put on
their home computers? Somebody ought to mention that to Yahoo. And 
let's
hope nobody who is having FreeBSD pitched to them as a viable server OS
for their business reads that remark as they google.
Again, never said it wasn't.  It was well made and it HAPPENED TO BE 
perfectly viable for that use.  It was never a group of people who sat 
down and said, "How can we build this OS to serve Yahoo's customers the 
best?"

Never read the remark that there's an ulterior motive behind the 
creation of FreeBSD, that it was aimed for businesses?  My impression 
was that it was created to be a good server OS.  Use it or don't.  It 
doesn't need businesses to survive, but if they use it they'd be better 
off.  It was untainted by business politics and marketing tripe.  
FreeBSD and Linux were examples of what happens when marketers stay OUT 
of the core process of delivering the project and the geeks using and 
developing the OS told users that if they wanted a feature, they might 
put it in...maybe not.  Don't like it, you can do it yourself.  Is this 
the best approach?  Probably not.  But it's how it came to this point.  
If marketing led FreeBSD's goals now, you'd have an OS that would 
require three times the RAM, twice the disk space, Ports would have a 
front end tool that's entirely GUI driven, the OS would have more 
services by default, and it would always install and boot to a GUI 
based on GNOME or KDE...because it friendlier and more marketable that 
way.

 Is
FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of
technology dictate marketing?
What changes would a logo require of the underlying technology of
FreeBSD? That's just rhetoric.
It doesn't.  The question was, "is FreeBSD starting to have...".
Some of those volunteers would like to see a new logo.  Others
would not.  The vast majority probably do not care at all.  Somehow
the ones who like the present logo seem to think they can simply
dismiss all comments from the other volunteers who would like a
new logo, as if the work done by THOSE volunteers is somehow
irrelevant.
I haven't noticed anyone suggest that Beastie be banished, just that a
proper logo might be appropriate now. Here's a suggestion: Beastie 
stays
as the mascot. People use it as and when they wish, subject to
conditions which are at the discretion of a private individual and not
the FreeBSD project. And there's a new logo, as opposed to mascot, if
the competition throws up one people like.
This distinction has been being made more and more; "change logo, not 
mascot".   I think what got people's hackles in a bind was that there 
has been periodic discussion over changing or altering the mascot 
because it's too satanic.  He's evil!  You're debbil worshippers!

This periodic infringement of religion on geek territory...the mascot 
that has come to represent what many people have donated significant 
portion

Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg]

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

-Original Message-
From: Garance A Drosehn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 1:59 PM
To: Ted Mittelstaedt; freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as
NetBSD!!!

And frankly, most FreeBSD commiters do not read the -advocacy or
-questions mailing lists (I never read advocacy, for instance).  So
maybe only three or four committers have explicitly expressed support
for a LOGO CONTEST.
 
Are you just too dense to understand that supporting a logo contest
automatically implies that you are unsatisfied with the current
logo?  If you like Beastie why on earth would you want a contest
to replace him?
I like Beastie! I wear shirts with Beastie! I have a 45cm tall sticker 
of Beastie on the front of my fridge, clearly visible to anyone that 
enters my appartment. I have "Powered by FreeBSD" stickers sporting 
Beastie on my laptop. I have Beastie as screensaver and as desktop 
background. Still, Im not to dense to realize that there is a need for 
a new logo. You, on the other hand, seem to be to dense* to realize 
the difference between a logo and a mascot.

For the last time, it is not the contest that I and others are
objecting to.  It is what you intend to do with the results of
the contest - that is, replace Beastie.
Not replace. Complement.
Some people would be extremely helped by a more proffesional looking 
logo. Therefor, the idea was put forward to complement Beastie with a 
logo useable in the commercial world. (Actually, the idea was never 
presented, it was drafted and then leaked before finished). This would 
mean that the people that likes Beastie can continue using it, while 
the people needing a more proffesional logo would also see their needs 
fullfilled.
However, some people does not need a new logo, and they seem to fight 
furiously to stop a change that basically would not affect them at 
all. I simply fail to understand their stand in this.

--
R
* When I call you dense I do not seriously mean to question your 
intelligence. I respect you as the author of a very good book and I 
value your contributions to the community as well as your opinions, 
but in this matter I just find it impossible to understand your point 
of view.

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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg]

Bart Silverstrim wrote:
On Feb 11, 2005, at 2:18 AM, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Ted Mittelstaedt writes:
That is so not true that it makes me almost as angry as the original
debate.

Maybe getting angry about a mere logo is a bad sign.

Just to sum up things as I understand it...
People want to change the logo from Beastie to something else because 
Beastie isn't professional enough, so some committers decided to hold a 
contest for a new logo?
Not really. Someone found a draft of a document suggesting a contest, 
that was not meant to be published (yet?) and then all hell broke loss.

Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business would 
be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it?  Would you 
care if a business were that dumb...would you actually *want* them using 
it?
Its not that simple. Several times I have seen very intelligent and 
competent administrators that would love to run BSD be forced to 
install linux just because the management of their company liked linux 
better. A business is rarely stupid, but the people that run the 
business may often have their priorities messed up.

Someone said people change logos all the time.  That's flat out wrong.  
When a company spends mucho dinero on marketing their logo, they don't 
just flip around and decide to change their logo that they spent so much 
money and time getting mindshare with.  Have any examples of logos that 
have constantly changed?
As posten elsewhere in this thread: 
http://www.bellsystemmemorial.com/bell_logos.html
Times and trends change, companies that wants to survive do to.

Windows' logo isn't even a logo.  It's a flag of a window pane falling 
apart in the breeze.  I associate windows with broken glass.  These 
things don't seem to hinder Windows from getting massive market share.

Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not by 
commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department that is trying 
to steer FreeBSD into the business sector?  Is FreeBSD starting to have 
marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate marketing?
I sincerely hope not. But superior technology does not mean we cant be 
good at marketing too. And seriously, would FreeBSD suffer from a 
better logo? Would it make it less technology driven? Even if the logo 
was picture of someones ass, I would still use FreeBSD. If the logo 
was a superior and beatiful incarnation of everything a logo should 
be, that would not change my mind either.

Or is this all some sneaky way of saying that Beastie is too much like 
the Devil and this new logo contest is a way to slip out the connotative 
Beastie with some other more politically correct symbol, like the drive 
in American classrooms for Intelligent Design to be taught in science 
classes ("It's not Creationism! It's not Creationism!  It's *science*...")
There are so many reasons beside religious ones why Beastie is a bad 
logo I dont even know where to start.
It looks bad in print. Its expensive to print. It does not look like 
something an advanced OS would use as logo. Its hard to reproduce.
On the other hand, its almost perfect as a mascot, which is a very 
different thing from a logo.

Just asking, since I was largely ignoring the thread but got curious 
after so MANY posts were made about the topic.
Seems to be a hot topic. Which it wouldnt be if 90% of the posters to 
this thread didnt missunderstand the whole idea.

--
R

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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Dag-Erling Smørgrav]

Anthony Atkielski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes:
> > Copyright does not enter the equation at all.  What matters is the
> > license.
> Uh ... where there is no copyright, there is no license.  Where there is
> a license, there is a copyright.

Are you intentionally misinterpreting me?  It does not matter who
holds the copyright as long as the work is distributed under the right
kind of license.

DES
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes:

> Copyright does not enter the equation at all.  What matters is the
> license.

Uh ... where there is no copyright, there is no license.  Where there is
a license, there is a copyright.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Dag-Erling Smørgrav]

Anthony Atkielski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Joshua Tinnin writes:
> > I don't think you understand the history of FreeBSD. Many people who
> > work at Yahoo! are committers, and their employer not only knows about
> > this but encourages it.
> That's not good enough.  The employer has to assign its copyrights as
> well, or waive the usual work-for-hire arrangement that is implicit for
> employees writing code within the scope of their work.

Copyright does not enter the equation at all.  What matters is the
license.  For instance:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~% head -35 
/usr/src/contrib/openpam/include/security/openpam.h
/*-
 * Copyright (c) 2002-2003 Networks Associates Technology, Inc.
 * All rights reserved.
 *
 * This software was developed for the FreeBSD Project by ThinkSec AS and
 * Network Associates Laboratories, the Security Research Division of
 * Network Associates, Inc.  under DARPA/SPAWAR contract N66001-01-C-8035
 * ("CBOSS"), as part of the DARPA CHATS research program.
 *
 * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
 * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions
 * are met:
 * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
 *notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
 * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
 *notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the
 *documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
 * 3. The name of the author may not be used to endorse or promote
 *products derived from this software without specific prior written
 *permission.
 *
 * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE AUTHOR AND CONTRIBUTORS ``AS IS'' AND
 * ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE
 * IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE
 * ARE DISCLAIMED.  IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE
 * FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL
 * DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS
 * OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION)
 * HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT
 * LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY
 * OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF
 * SUCH DAMAGE.
 *
 * $P4: //depot/projects/openpam/include/security/openpam.h#28 $
 */

DES
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RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Garance A
> Drosihn
> Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 12:56 PM
> To: Bart Silverstrim; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as
> NetBSD!!!
>
>
> At 8:00 AM -0500 2/11/05, Bart Silverstrim wrote:
> >Just to sum up things as I understand it...
> >
> >People want to change the logo from Beastie to something else
> >because Beastie isn't professional enough, so some committers
> >decided to hold a contest for a new logo?
>
> We thought it would be nice, after fifteen years, to see if our
> much-larger user base has any interesting ideas for a new logo.

That is putting the cart before the horse.

What you need to do first is find out if our much-larger userbase
WANTS a new logo.  If they do, THEN try finding out if they have
any interesting ideas for one.

>
> >Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business
> >would be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it?
>
> Businesses are stupid.  People who demand dedicated allegiance to
> one single cartoon image are just as stupid.  Both are facts, and
> neither is a late-breaking news item.
>

The FreeBSD project is not a business.

> >Someone said people change logos all the time.  That's flat out
> >wrong.  When a company spends mucho dinero on marketing their
> >logo, they don't just flip around and decide to change their
> >logo that they spent so much money and time getting mindshare
> >with.  Have any examples of logos that have constantly changed?
>
> We do constantly see companies change their logo.  That is not the
> same thing as saying any *one* company is constantly changing *its*
> logo.  Apple has changed its logo.  AT&T changed its logo several
> times.  GE recently changed its one-line motto.  At one point,
> McDonalds rebuilt every one of their stores from the old
> "golden-arches" look to the newer "family restaurant" look -- and
> that cost a hell of a lot more than any logo change.
>

All of those organizations are businesses.  The FreeBSD Project is
not.  How is any of that applicable?

> Right now we're working with an image that was picked 15 years ago
> for a very small open-source project.

Your working with an image that was first associated with UNIX in
1976, which is almost it's entire life.

> We now claim to be several
> orders of magnitude larger than that.  I doubt there is *any*
> company who has stuck with it's original logo as it went from
> "five guys running a hobby" to "millions of users".
>

The FreeBSD Project is not a company.

> >Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and
> >not by commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department
> >that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector?  Is
> >FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of
> >technology dictate marketing?
>
> Some of those volunteers would like to see a new logo.  Others
> would not.  The vast majority probably do not care at all.

If you really believe that, then hold a vote on the issue don't
just ASS-U-ME it.

There is an online petition currently that says that quite a lot
of the volunteers do indeed care.

> Somehow
> the ones who like the present logo seem to think they can simply
> dismiss all comments from the other volunteers who would like a
> new logo, as if the work done by THOSE volunteers is somehow
> irrelevant.
>

Somehow the ones who dislike the present logo seem to think they can
simply
dismiss all comments from the other volunteers who would like to
retain the old logo, as if the work done by THOSE volunteers is somehow
irrelevant.

Ted

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RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

> -Original Message-
> From: Garance A Drosehn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 1:59 PM
> To: Ted Mittelstaedt; freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org
> Subject: Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as
> NetBSD!!!
> 
> 
> 
> And frankly, most FreeBSD commiters do not read the -advocacy or
> -questions mailing lists (I never read advocacy, for instance).  So
> maybe only three or four committers have explicitly expressed support
> for a LOGO CONTEST.

Are you just too dense to understand that supporting a logo contest
automatically implies that you are unsatisfied with the current
logo?  If you like Beastie why on earth would you want a contest
to replace him?

For the last time, it is not the contest that I and others are
objecting to.  It is what you intend to do with the results of
the contest - that is, replace Beastie.

> How many committers have responded here saying
> just how much they hate the idea of even running the contest?
>

Why would they bother posting at all?  It is not they who are
being attacked - it's you and the others who want to dump Beastie
and replace him.  Of course since they aren't being attacked
they aren't going to have a need to defend themselves.
 
> And let me say once again, this is FOR a LOGO contest -- which is
> not the same as being "Anti-beastie".  All of us have said that
> the Beastie will remain as a mascot.

An hour ago you posted this:

"if our much-larger user base has any interesting ideas for a new logo"

you did NOT say:

"if our much-larger user base has any interesting ideas for a logo"

Your statement implied that a logo already existed - which in fact it
does.

You also said:

"Somehow the ones who like the PRESENT logo seem to think.."

What I see here is that when your using the "we never had a logo
before" argument, you pretend a logo didn't exist, but all other
times you acknowledge that it does exist.

Ted
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Chad Leigh -- Shire . Net LLC]

On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:16 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:
many in no way means a majority.  many is more than a few, where a few
is a handful (3-5 or so).  There are probably more than a handful who
do it as more than a hobby.  A lot of good people do it on their own
time as well, and I salute that.  But a lot of people like Yahoo and
others (Apple probably) submit stuff that ends up in FreeBSD and they
pay their people to do so.  Lots of features, like jails as I
understand it, started off by someone getting paid to implement stuff.
I hope people are not being as careless as you imply.  Being paid to
write code as an employee means relinguishing copyright in the code to
one's employer.  If people are actually doing this for FreeBSD, then
some of the code in FreeBSD is owned by their employers, which can
become a legal nightmare and stop the project dead in its tracks
overnight.  Aren't there any _lawyers_ working on this project?
Sorry, but the employers are freely offering the code and assigning 
copyrights as necessary.

Chad
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:

> And the standard answer is RTFM

I don't know of anything in the manuals or on the Web site that answers
this type of question.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Michael E . Conlen]

On Feb 11, 2005, at 6:14 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:
And the standard answer is RTFM
I don't know of anything in the manuals or on the Web site that answers
this type of question.
This is a mailing list for questions about how to use FreeBSD, not why 
you should or shouldn't use FreeBSD.

We generally don't care if you use FreeBSD or not.
--
Michael Conlen
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Eric Kjeldergaard]

athony atkielski =~ /tm452\d/ ?

-- 
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Chad Leigh -- Shire . Net LLC]

On Feb 11, 2005, at 4:14 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:
And the standard answer is RTFM
I don't know of anything in the manuals or on the Web site that answers
this type of question.
Typical.  Cut out the rest of what I said.
You need to ask the right people, not this list.  To find out who the 
right people are, you should RTFM or in the case RTFWS

Chad
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Chad Leigh -- Shire . Net LLC]

On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:56 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:
CIOs don't hang out in public mailing lists asking such questions
But some of us hanging out on such lists have to answer these questions
when talking to CIOs.  And saying "I don't know" just doesn't wash.
And the standard answer is RTFM
In this case RTFC or RTFsomething
We are not your errand boys.  People in this list are not the ones to 
answer this question.  Find the appropriate people and ask them.  Start 
at www.freebsd.org ...

Chad
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:

> CIOs don't hang out in public mailing lists asking such questions

But some of us hanging out on such lists have to answer these questions
when talking to CIOs.  And saying "I don't know" just doesn't wash.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:

> This is not the right place to ask such questions.

Why is it called freebsd-questions?

> If you are
> *seriously* concerned about this, and do not think that the FreeBSD 
> core / foundation and their lawyers have not thought about this, then 
> you should bring it up with them, and perhaps do a little leg work 
> yourself and go through the codebase and make sure.

How do I "bring it up with them"?  Where _are_ they?

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:

> I don't know.  Go ask them.  Look in the codebase yourself, or pay
> someone to do so.

Is this what you would tell someone contemplating a multimillion-dollar
investment in a FreeBSD rollout to 10,000 servers? "I don't know"? "Look
it up yourself"?

This project may need a lot more than a logo.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Chad Leigh -- Shire . Net LLC]

On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:51 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:
You ask a dumb question, get such an answer.
Be sure to tell the CIOs that.  That'll do wonders for adoption of
FreeBSD.
CIOs don't hang out in public mailing lists asking such questions
Chad


You make assumptions that just because someone is paying someone to
work on FreeBSD that no one has thought of the copyright implications.
Because I know that it happens regularly.  Geeks usually know nothing
about copyright and think that they are above copyright law.
The people running the FreeBSD project are smarter than that.
Then they are also smarter than the people running Microsoft, IBM,
Adobe, Apple, Sun, and many other multibillion-dollar companies, all of
which have regular problems with copyright and patent law.  The
difference is that these large companies can afford to defend 
themselves
in court (and even then they sometimes lose).

And I am not your errand-boy.  If you are seriously worried about 
this,
then you need to  make the investment necessary to clear your mind on
the issue.  Asking other people to do so is arrogant.
I'm trying to keep people from shooting themselves in the feet.  Why is
there always such hostility towards this?
--
Anthony
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Chad Leigh -- Shire . Net LLC]

On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:46 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Joshua Tinnin writes:
I don't think you understand the history of FreeBSD. Many people who
work at Yahoo! are committers, and their employer not only knows about
this but encourages it.
That's not good enough.  The employer has to assign its copyrights as
well, or waive the usual work-for-hire arrangement that is implicit for
employees writing code within the scope of their work.
To what end?
I'd hate to see FreeBSD become unavailable because of copyright issues.
A lot of organizations are buried by this type of litigation.  And
frankly, the cavalier attitude about such serious questions that I
sometimes see displayed does not reassure me.
This is not the right place to ask such questions.  If you are 
*seriously* concerned about this, and do not think that the FreeBSD 
core / foundation and their lawyers have not thought about this, then 
you should bring it up with them, and perhaps do a little leg work 
yourself and go through the codebase and make sure.

Chad
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:

> You ask a dumb question, get such an answer.

Be sure to tell the CIOs that.  That'll do wonders for adoption of
FreeBSD.

> You make assumptions that just because someone is paying someone to
> work on FreeBSD that no one has thought of the copyright implications.

Because I know that it happens regularly.  Geeks usually know nothing
about copyright and think that they are above copyright law.

> The people running the FreeBSD project are smarter than that.

Then they are also smarter than the people running Microsoft, IBM,
Adobe, Apple, Sun, and many other multibillion-dollar companies, all of
which have regular problems with copyright and patent law.  The
difference is that these large companies can afford to defend themselves
in court (and even then they sometimes lose).

> And I am not your errand-boy.  If you are seriously worried about this,
> then you need to  make the investment necessary to clear your mind on 
> the issue.  Asking other people to do so is arrogant.

I'm trying to keep people from shooting themselves in the feet.  Why is
there always such hostility towards this?

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Joshua Tinnin writes:

> Do you have any proof of malfeasence?

I don't need it.  That's the way copyright normally works; it's not
malfeasance.  In order to protect the project, the status of copyright
in all code written for the project must be very clearly established, in
writing.

> Are you planning on suing someone, or is this meant to be useful in
> some way?

It's meant to protect the project from people like yourself who don't
think it can ever happen to them.  I've seen corporations and
individuals burned badly and sometimes put out of business because of
their inability or unwillingness to consider legal issues, and I'd hate
to see that happen to FreeBSD.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Joshua Tinnin writes:

> I don't think you understand the history of FreeBSD. Many people who
> work at Yahoo! are committers, and their employer not only knows about
> this but encourages it.

That's not good enough.  The employer has to assign its copyrights as
well, or waive the usual work-for-hire arrangement that is implicit for
employees writing code within the scope of their work.

> To what end?

I'd hate to see FreeBSD become unavailable because of copyright issues.
A lot of organizations are buried by this type of litigation.  And
frankly, the cavalier attitude about such serious questions that I
sometimes see displayed does not reassure me.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Peter Risdon]

Can I suggest a new mailing list - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Peter.

On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 23:42 +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Andrew L. Gould writes:
> 
> > That's an assumption.
> 
> The project needs to ask for proof of this, and not simply assume it.
> 
> > We could as easily assume that the employers:
> 
> Never assume anything in law.  A wrong assumption could bury the
> project.
> 

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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Andrew L. Gould writes:

> That's an assumption.

The project needs to ask for proof of this, and not simply assume it.

> We could as easily assume that the employers:

Never assume anything in law.  A wrong assumption could bury the
project.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Chad Leigh -- Shire . Net LLC]

On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:40 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:
Their employers are paying them TO WORK on FreeBSD. They are not 
taking
their code that they write for their employers and also sticking it in
FreeBSD.  Big difference.
Not if their work consists of writing code.  In that case, the 
copyright
in the code belongs to their employer (in the U.S., and in a number of
other countries with similar provisions).
Yes there is a difference.  If the employer assigns it to the FreeBSD 
project.  That is what we are talking about.

Under 17 USC 101:
"A 'work made for hire' is—
  (1) a work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her
employment; or
   (2) a work specially ordered or commissioned for use as a
contribution to a collective work, as a part of a motion picture or
other audiovisual work, as a translation, as a supplementary work, as a
compilation, as an instructional text, as a test, as answer material 
for
a test, or as an atlas, if the parties expressly agree in a written
instrument signed by them that the work shall be considered a work made
for hire. [...]"

Note that a "collective work" is generally a book or a movie, not a
computer operating system:
"A 'collective work' is a work, such as a periodical issue, anthology,
or encyclopedia, in which a number of contributions, constituting
separate and independent works in themselves, are assembled into a
collective whole."
"Computer program" is separately defined, which means that it is not a
collective work.
In the first case, they are allowing it to happen and assign
the copyrights as necessary.
Do they do this in writing before the code becomes a part of the
project?  Do they have a written agreement with their employees that
explicitly waives their work-for-hire interest in the copyright?

I don't know.  Go ask them.  Look in the codebase yourself, or pay 
someone to do so.

Chad

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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Chad Leigh -- Shire . Net LLC]

On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:30 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:
Look in the codebase
No, tell me right here.  CIOs aren't going to look in the codebase to
try to find out if it's legal for them to use the operating system.
You ask a dumb question, get such an answer.
You make assumptions that just because someone is paying someone to 
work on FreeBSD that no one has thought of the copyright implications.  
The people running the FreeBSD project are smarter than that.

And I am not your errand-boy.  If you are seriously worried about this, 
then you need to  make the investment necessary to clear your mind on 
the issue.  Asking other people to do so is arrogant.

Chad
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:

> Sorry, but the employers are freely offering the code and assigning
> copyrights as necessary.

OK, as long as the copyrights are assigned before any of the code finds
its way into the released product.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:

> Their employers are paying them TO WORK on FreeBSD. They are not taking
> their code that they write for their employers and also sticking it in
> FreeBSD.  Big difference.

Not if their work consists of writing code.  In that case, the copyright
in the code belongs to their employer (in the U.S., and in a number of
other countries with similar provisions).

Under 17 USC 101:

"A 'work made for hire' is—

  (1) a work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her
employment; or

   (2) a work specially ordered or commissioned for use as a
contribution to a collective work, as a part of a motion picture or
other audiovisual work, as a translation, as a supplementary work, as a
compilation, as an instructional text, as a test, as answer material for
a test, or as an atlas, if the parties expressly agree in a written
instrument signed by them that the work shall be considered a work made
for hire. [...]"

Note that a "collective work" is generally a book or a movie, not a
computer operating system:

"A 'collective work' is a work, such as a periodical issue, anthology,
or encyclopedia, in which a number of contributions, constituting
separate and independent works in themselves, are assembled into a
collective whole."

"Computer program" is separately defined, which means that it is not a
collective work.

> In the first case, they are allowing it to happen and assign
> the copyrights as necessary.

Do they do this in writing before the code becomes a part of the
project?  Do they have a written agreement with their employees that
explicitly waives their work-for-hire interest in the copyright?

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Joshua Tinnin]

On Friday 11 February 2005 02:13 pm, Anthony Atkielski 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Frank Laszlo writes:
> > I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid
> > to work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby.
>
> What written agreements do these committers have with their
> employers?
>
> Normally, if you are paid to write something by your employer, your
> employer owns the copyright in what you write.  So unless these
> committers have specific agreements with their employers to the
> contrary, they are adding code to FreeBSD that is encumbered by
> copyrights owned by their employer, and can no longer be freely
> distributed.

Do you have any proof of malfeasence? Are you planning on suing someone, 
or is this meant to be useful in some way?

- jt
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Joshua Tinnin]

On Friday 11 February 2005 02:16 pm, Anthony Atkielski 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:
> > many in no way means a majority.  many is more than a few, where a
> > few is a handful (3-5 or so).  There are probably more than a
> > handful who do it as more than a hobby.  A lot of good people do it
> > on their own time as well, and I salute that.  But a lot of people
> > like Yahoo and others (Apple probably) submit stuff that ends up in
> > FreeBSD and they pay their people to do so.  Lots of features, like
> > jails as I understand it, started off by someone getting paid to
> > implement stuff.
>
> I hope people are not being as careless as you imply.  Being paid to
> write code as an employee means relinguishing copyright in the code
> to one's employer.  If people are actually doing this for FreeBSD,
> then some of the code in FreeBSD is owned by their employers, which
> can become a legal nightmare and stop the project dead in its tracks
> overnight.  Aren't there any _lawyers_ working on this project?

I don't think you understand the history of FreeBSD. Many people who 
work at Yahoo! are committers, and their employer not only knows about 
this but encourages it. This is the second cartooney threat you've shot 
across the bow. To what end?

- jt
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:

> Look in the codebase

No, tell me right here.  CIOs aren't going to look in the codebase to
try to find out if it's legal for them to use the operating system.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Andrew L. Gould]

On Friday 11 February 2005 04:11 pm, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:
> > Many of the people that work
> > on it are paid to work on it by their employers, who are using it
> > commercially.
>
> That would mean that their employers hold a copyright in the FreeBSD
> code written by their employees; this is a classic implicit
> work-for-hire arrangement. Have these people signed an agreement with
> their employers that waives the work-for-hire copyright interest?

That's an assumption.  We could as easily assume that the employers:

1. contribute the employees' work back to the project under a free 
license as to benefit from improvements that might be made by the 
FreeBSD Project; and

2. keep secret stuff out of the FreeBSD Project so that it stays secret; 
and

3. make policies regarding points #1 and #2 very clear to the developer 
at the beginning of the employment relationship.

We can assume this or that until my keyboard runs out of monitor ink; 
but there's been enough cynicism for one week.

Happy Friday,

Andrew Gould
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Frank Laszlo writes:

> I was refering to commiters paid BY FreeBSD to provide code.

Ah ... I am reassured!  You should always make that crystal-clear
whenever you mention this in discussions with anybody.  Any rumor
started to the contrary could kill off interest in the OS in anyone
considering it for anything other than home use (and sometimes even
that, thanks to the MPAA and RIAA).

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Chad Leigh -- Shire . Net LLC]

On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:16 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:
many in no way means a majority.  many is more than a few, where a few
is a handful (3-5 or so).  There are probably more than a handful who
do it as more than a hobby.  A lot of good people do it on their own
time as well, and I salute that.  But a lot of people like Yahoo and
others (Apple probably) submit stuff that ends up in FreeBSD and they
pay their people to do so.  Lots of features, like jails as I
understand it, started off by someone getting paid to implement stuff.
I hope people are not being as careless as you imply.  Being paid to
write code as an employee means relinguishing copyright in the code to
one's employer.  If people are actually doing this for FreeBSD, then
some of the code in FreeBSD is owned by their employers, which can
become a legal nightmare and stop the project dead in its tracks
overnight.  Aren't there any _lawyers_ working on this project?
As an example
from "man jail"
"
AUTHORS
 The jail feature was written by Poul-Henning Kamp for R&D 
Associates
 http://www.rndassociates.com/ who contributed it to FreeBSD.
"

I would assume, but I do not know, that Poul-Henning Kamp was paid for 
his work.  Then R&D Associates contributed it to FreeBSD.

I think I have read here that Yahoo has also rolled stuff back into the 
main line source (I do not have first hand knowledge of this).

Apple also rolls stuff back into the BSD source trees.
They do so knowingly and with appropriate legalese
Chad
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Chad Leigh -- Shire . Net LLC]

On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:13 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Frank Laszlo writes:
I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid to
work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby.
What written agreements do these committers have with their employers?
Normally, if you are paid to write something by your employer, your
employer owns the copyright in what you write.  So unless these
committers have specific agreements with their employers to the
contrary, they are adding code to FreeBSD that is encumbered by
copyrights owned by their employer, and can no longer be freely
distributed.
NO.
Their employers are paying them TO WORK on FreeBSD. They are not taking 
their code that they write for their employers and also sticking it in 
FreeBSD.  Big difference.  In the first case, they are allowing it to 
happen and assign the copyrights as necessary.

Chad
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Chad Leigh -- Shire . Net LLC]

On Feb 11, 2005, at 3:11 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:
Many of the people that work
on it are paid to work on it by their employers, who are using it
commercially.
That would mean that their employers hold a copyright in the FreeBSD
code written by their employees; this is a classic implicit
work-for-hire arrangement. Have these people signed an agreement with
their employers that waives the work-for-hire copyright interest?
Look in the codebase
Chad
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Frank Laszlo]

Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Frank Laszlo writes:
 

I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid to
work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby.
   

What written agreements do these committers have with their employers?
Normally, if you are paid to write something by your employer, your
employer owns the copyright in what you write.  So unless these
committers have specific agreements with their employers to the
contrary, they are adding code to FreeBSD that is encumbered by
copyrights owned by their employer, and can no longer be freely
distributed.
 

I was refering to commiters paid BY FreeBSD to provide code.
__
Frank Laszlo
System Administrator
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Email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WWW:http://www.vonostingroup.com
Mobile: 248-863-7584
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:

> many in no way means a majority.  many is more than a few, where a few
> is a handful (3-5 or so).  There are probably more than a handful who 
> do it as more than a hobby.  A lot of good people do it on their own 
> time as well, and I salute that.  But a lot of people like Yahoo and 
> others (Apple probably) submit stuff that ends up in FreeBSD and they 
> pay their people to do so.  Lots of features, like jails as I 
> understand it, started off by someone getting paid to implement stuff.

I hope people are not being as careless as you imply.  Being paid to
write code as an employee means relinguishing copyright in the code to
one's employer.  If people are actually doing this for FreeBSD, then
some of the code in FreeBSD is owned by their employers, which can
become a legal nightmare and stop the project dead in its tracks
overnight.  Aren't there any _lawyers_ working on this project?

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Frank Laszlo]

Garance A Drosihn wrote:
At 4:34 PM -0500 2/11/05, Frank Laszlo wrote:
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote:
FreeBSD is driven by commercial matters.  Many of the people that
work on it are paid to work on it by their employers, who are
using it commercially.

I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid
to work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby.

...but there is a mighty long list who would love to get paid to
work on FreeBSD!  :-)   Many of us are paid to work on some Linux
machines, and I think it would be much much nicer if we could
convince our employer to go with FreeBSD instead.
amen brotha.
__
Frank Laszlo
System Administrator
The VonOstin Group
Email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WWW:http://www.vonostingroup.com
Mobile: 248-863-7584
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Frank Laszlo writes:

> I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid to
> work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby.

What written agreements do these committers have with their employers?

Normally, if you are paid to write something by your employer, your
employer owns the copyright in what you write.  So unless these
committers have specific agreements with their employers to the
contrary, they are adding code to FreeBSD that is encumbered by
copyrights owned by their employer, and can no longer be freely
distributed.

-- 
Anthony


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RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Robert Marella]

On Thu, 2005-02-10 at 21:31 -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> 
>  What if they put it
> to a vote and the userbase all votes for logos that clearly
> represent the Beastie image?  What will have been the point of
> the contest?

I am a FreeBSD user. I read and sometimes respond to several of the
lists. I have donated money and will continue to donate money to FreeBSD
no matter what the logo will be. 

I also donate money and volunteer my time to Hospice. I do not get nor
expect to be able to vote on any issues that may arise  at a board
meeting for The Hospice of Kona.

Why in the world should I expect to be able to vote on whether a new
logo is adopted or not?

Robert

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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:

> Many of the people that work
> on it are paid to work on it by their employers, who are using it 
> commercially.

That would mean that their employers hold a copyright in the FreeBSD
code written by their employees; this is a classic implicit
work-for-hire arrangement. Have these people signed an agreement with
their employers that waives the work-for-hire copyright interest?

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Garance A Drosihn]

At 4:34 PM -0500 2/11/05, Frank Laszlo wrote:
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote:
FreeBSD is driven by commercial matters.  Many of the people that
work on it are paid to work on it by their employers, who are
using it commercially.
I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid
to work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby.
...but there is a mighty long list who would love to get paid to
work on FreeBSD!  :-)   Many of us are paid to work on some Linux
machines, and I think it would be much much nicer if we could
convince our employer to go with FreeBSD instead.
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Garance A Drosehn]

At 10:09 PM -0800 2/10/05, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
 > While you seem determined to pretend that Robert Watson is
 > somehow the sole person interested in this, let me note I am
 > one of the FreeBSD committers who would like to see some new
 > ideas for a logo.
Good.  At least you have my respect now for growing some balls
and admitting it publically.
I'm glad you are quick to show just how irrationally inflammatory
you are when it comes to this issue.
Would the rest of the anti-beastie committers please come out
of the bushes now?
PHK has commented in one of these threads.  DES has also commented.
One other committer commented (who I can't remember at the moment).
And you love to scream about the evil Robert Watson (*), and how
this is his personal double-secret plot, so I assume he must have
commented.
And frankly, most FreeBSD commiters do not read the -advocacy or
-questions mailing lists (I never read advocacy, for instance).  So
maybe only three or four committers have explicitly expressed support
for a LOGO CONTEST.  How many committers have responded here saying
just how much they hate the idea of even running the contest?
And let me say once again, this is FOR a LOGO contest -- which is
not the same as being "Anti-beastie".  All of us have said that
the Beastie will remain as a mascot.  Kirk and GNN are not going
to recall their recent FreeBSD book simply to change the nicely-
drawn Beastie on that cover to some simple FreeBSD logo.  We keep
saying the Beastie remains as a mascot, and you keep talking out
of your ass, with its over-abundance of flying black helicopters
(* - aside: it's funny how one of the other lists is praising Robert
for his high-quality and informative posts, and all the hard work
he has done on FreeBSD in the past few months.  Those people are
talking about making an archive about every one of his posts for
future reference, because he constantly contributes so much useful
information to end-users.  But let someone suggest that he MIGHT be
in favor of this PUBLIC CONTEST for a FreeBSD logo, and immediately
some ungrateful bastard is treating Robert like he is evil incarnate.
It is amazing just how pathetic your memory is when it comes to
people who contribute so much to this project -- and you do that in
defense of a cartoon image.  It's a pity you have more respect for
the cartoon than for the developers who work on the source code)
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Chad Leigh -- Shire . Net LLC]

On Feb 11, 2005, at 2:34 PM, Frank Laszlo wrote:
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote:
On Feb 11, 2005, at 6:00 AM, Bart Silverstrim wrote:
Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and 
not by commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department that 
is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector?  Is FreeBSD 
starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology 
dictate marketing?

Sorry, but this does not make sense.
FreeBSD is driven by commercial matters.  Many of the people that 
work on it are paid to work on it by their employers, who are using 
it commercially.   FreeBSD will wither away if it does not continue 
to receive extensive commercial support like Linux gets.
I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid to 
work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby.

many in no way means a majority.  many is more than a few, where a few 
is a handful (3-5 or so).  There are probably more than a handful who 
do it as more than a hobby.  A lot of good people do it on their own 
time as well, and I salute that.  But a lot of people like Yahoo and 
others (Apple probably) submit stuff that ends up in FreeBSD and they 
pay their people to do so.  Lots of features, like jails as I 
understand it, started off by someone getting paid to implement stuff.  
These things then get added.

best
Chad
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Peter Risdon]

On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 15:56 -0500, Garance A Drosihn wrote:
> At 8:00 AM -0500 2/11/05, Bart Silverstrim wrote:
[...]
> >Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and
> >not by commercial matters, 

FreeBSD is a commercially viable operating system. I happen to think
it's the best server OS there is - for businesses. This thread has made
it seem, sometimes, as though the touch of commerce is anathema, which
is silly. As I understand it, the support of commercial organisations is
vital to the project. If you want a project that pisses on its sponsors,
there's always OpenBSD.

> suddenly gain a marketing department
> >that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector? 

You mean it isn't in the business sector? It's just for geeks to put on
their home computers? Somebody ought to mention that to Yahoo. And let's
hope nobody who is having FreeBSD pitched to them as a viable server OS
for their business reads that remark as they google.

>  Is
> >FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of
> >technology dictate marketing?

What changes would a logo require of the underlying technology of
FreeBSD? That's just rhetoric.

> 
> Some of those volunteers would like to see a new logo.  Others
> would not.  The vast majority probably do not care at all.  Somehow
> the ones who like the present logo seem to think they can simply
> dismiss all comments from the other volunteers who would like a
> new logo, as if the work done by THOSE volunteers is somehow
> irrelevant.
> 

I haven't noticed anyone suggest that Beastie be banished, just that a
proper logo might be appropriate now. Here's a suggestion: Beastie stays
as the mascot. People use it as and when they wish, subject to
conditions which are at the discretion of a private individual and not
the FreeBSD project. And there's a new logo, as opposed to mascot, if
the competition throws up one people like.

By the way, thanks very much indeed for the work you're doing as a
volunteer committer. Without that, we wouldn't be here burning up
bandwidth on a technical support mailing list.

Peter.

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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Paul Mather]

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:04:34 -0600, "Andrew L. Gould"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Friday 11 February 2005 08:14 am, Dag-Erling Smrgrav wrote:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > > Imagine Linux dropping Tux for some meanlingless, lifeless logo?
> >
> > I'm glad you asked.
> >
> > Tux is a mascot, not a logo.  These are Linux logos:
> >
> > http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topiccaldera.gif
> > http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicdebian.gif
> > http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicmandrake.gif
> > http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicredhat.gif
> > http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicsuse.gif
> > http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicturbolinux.gif
> >
> 
> >
> > DES
> 
> No Slackware?  In my opinion, Slackware has the widest deviation in 
> professionalism between their logo and mascot. 
> 
> logo(s):
> http://slackware.com/grfx/shared/logo.png
> http://store.slackware.com/images/nav/s_topleft.png
> 
> mascot (pipe-smoking penguin):
> http://store.slackware.com/cgi-bin/store/slacklapel?id=E844B2UK:mv_pc=379

Quite a deviation indeed, especially considering their mascot is an
obvious nod to the Church of the SubGenius (http://www.subgenius.com):
the true purveyors of SLACK!

;-)

Cheers,

Paul.
-- 
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Frank Laszlo]

Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote:
On Feb 11, 2005, at 6:00 AM, Bart Silverstrim wrote:
Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not 
by commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department that is 
trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector?  Is FreeBSD 
starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology 
dictate marketing?

Sorry, but this does not make sense.
FreeBSD is driven by commercial matters.  Many of the people that work 
on it are paid to work on it by their employers, who are using it 
commercially.   FreeBSD will wither away if it does not continue to 
receive extensive commercial support like Linux gets.
I wouldnt say many, there are few commiters who are actually paid to 
work on it, most commiters/developers do it as a hobby.

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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Eric Kjeldergaard]

> http://www.bellsystemmemorial.com/bell_logos.html


I'm not sure that 6 times  in 110 years is "constantly changed"

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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Robert Marella]

On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 08:00 -0500, Bart Silverstrim wrote:

> 
> Someone said people change logos all the time.  That's flat out wrong.  
> When a company spends mucho dinero on marketing their logo, they don't 
> just flip around and decide to change their logo that they spent so 
> much money and time getting mindshare with.  Have any examples of logos 
> that have constantly changed?
> 
http://www.bellsystemmemorial.com/bell_logos.html



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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Chad Leigh -- Shire . Net LLC]

On Feb 11, 2005, at 6:00 AM, Bart Silverstrim wrote:
Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not 
by commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department that is 
trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector?  Is FreeBSD starting 
to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate 
marketing?
Sorry, but this does not make sense.
FreeBSD is driven by commercial matters.  Many of the people that work 
on it are paid to work on it by their employers, who are using it 
commercially.   FreeBSD will wither away if it does not continue to 
receive extensive commercial support like Linux gets.

When is a logo "technology"?  No one is talking about a logo steering 
technology or technology steering a logo.  The sentence "FreeBSD 
starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology 
dictate marketing?" is irrelevant to this discussion.

You can have the best technology in the world, but if no one uses it, 
who cares?

Chad
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Garance A Drosihn]

At 8:00 AM -0500 2/11/05, Bart Silverstrim wrote:
Just to sum up things as I understand it...
People want to change the logo from Beastie to something else
because Beastie isn't professional enough, so some committers
decided to hold a contest for a new logo?
We thought it would be nice, after fifteen years, to see if our
much-larger user base has any interesting ideas for a new logo.
We thought it would be nice to reward people with a minor
amount of money as a prize.
Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business
would be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it?
Businesses are stupid.  People who demand dedicated allegiance to
one single cartoon image are just as stupid.  Both are facts, and
neither is a late-breaking news item.
Someone said people change logos all the time.  That's flat out
wrong.  When a company spends mucho dinero on marketing their
logo, they don't just flip around and decide to change their
logo that they spent so much money and time getting mindshare
with.  Have any examples of logos that have constantly changed?
We do constantly see companies change their logo.  That is not the
same thing as saying any *one* company is constantly changing *its*
logo.  Apple has changed its logo.  AT&T changed its logo several
times.  GE recently changed its one-line motto.  At one point,
McDonalds rebuilt every one of their stores from the old
"golden-arches" look to the newer "family restaurant" look -- and
that cost a hell of a lot more than any logo change.
Right now we're working with an image that was picked 15 years ago
for a very small open-source project.  We now claim to be several
orders of magnitude larger than that.  I doubt there is *any*
company who has stuck with it's original logo as it went from
"five guys running a hobby" to "millions of users".
Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and
not by commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department
that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector?  Is
FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of
technology dictate marketing?
Some of those volunteers would like to see a new logo.  Others
would not.  The vast majority probably do not care at all.  Somehow
the ones who like the present logo seem to think they can simply
dismiss all comments from the other volunteers who would like a
new logo, as if the work done by THOSE volunteers is somehow
irrelevant.
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Andrew L. Gould]

On Friday 11 February 2005 08:14 am, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > Imagine Linux dropping Tux for some meanlingless, lifeless logo?
>
> I'm glad you asked.
>
> Tux is a mascot, not a logo.  These are Linux logos:
>
> http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topiccaldera.gif
> http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicdebian.gif
> http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicmandrake.gif
> http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicredhat.gif
> http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicsuse.gif
> http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicturbolinux.gif
>

>
> DES

No Slackware?  In my opinion, Slackware has the widest deviation in 
professionalism between their logo and mascot. 

logo(s):
http://slackware.com/grfx/shared/logo.png
http://store.slackware.com/images/nav/s_topleft.png

mascot (pipe-smoking penguin):
http://store.slackware.com/cgi-bin/store/slacklapel?id=E844B2UK:mv_pc=379

They also have a "When you get serious" Slackware t-shirt that I like.  
I wish I had thought of that for FreeBSD.
http://store.slackware.com/cgi-bin/store/serious?id=E844B2UK:mv_pc=426

Andrew Gould
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Frank Laszlo writes:

> Are we forgetting about the printing aspect of things? The redhat logo
> has some nice gradients in it.

The GIF I'm looking at seems to contain only red and black, except for
the drop shadow, which isn't part of the logo.

> And they just plain suck, IMHO.

They look too puerile for my tastes.  But that goes pretty well with
Linux.

> More opinions!! jesus, does everyone have one of these?

I have lots of them.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Bart Silverstrim]

On Feb 11, 2005, at 12:17 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Napper writes:
Its been my experience that the corporate suits get the
perception of "teenage hacker" from the cartoonish mascots.
Agreed.  And their perception is not always incorrect.
Am I the only one that finds some amusement in the reference to 
"corporate suits" then being followed up with a comment about 
perception of a stereotype? :-)

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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Frank Laszlo]

Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes:
 

Tux is a mascot, not a logo.  These are Linux logos:
http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topiccaldera.gif
http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicdebian.gif
http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicmandrake.gif
http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicredhat.gif
http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicsuse.gif
http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicturbolinux.gif
   

I like Red Hat the best, and SuSE is the worst, IMO.
 

Are we forgetting about the printing aspect of things? The redhat logo 
has some nice gradients in it.

The image that is sometimes used as an all-round Linux logo is not
"just Tux", but rather a particular representation of Tux in
combination with a logotype and an orange splash.  The author of that
logo is clearly aware of the distinction between a logo and a mascot:
http://www-mddsp.enel.ucalgary.ca/People/adilger/logo/
   

These are too complex to be used as logos.
 

And they just plain suck, IMHO.
 

Here's a page (a NetBSD logo contest entry) which addresses many of
these concerns, and coincidentally underlines my point about the
daemon not being exclusive to FreeBSD:
http://homepage.mac.com/codesamurai/netbsd-logo-entry/
   

Technically very clean, but too cute.
 

Riddled with opinions! :)
 

(this is so good I'm surprised NetBSD didn't adopt it, and I'd love to
see it submitted to the FreeBSD logo contest)
   

Eeuh, no.  Too cute.  It's important to avoid anything that looks like a
cartoon.
The logo displayed on the NetBSD site is a zillion times better.
 

More opinions!! jesus, does everyone have one of these? :)
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Napper writes:

> Its been my experience that the corporate suits get the
> perception of "teenage hacker" from the cartoonish mascots.

Agreed.  And their perception is not always incorrect.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes:

> Tux is a mascot, not a logo.  These are Linux logos:
>
> http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topiccaldera.gif
> http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicdebian.gif
> http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicmandrake.gif
> http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicredhat.gif
> http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicsuse.gif
> http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicturbolinux.gif

I like Red Hat the best, and SuSE is the worst, IMO.

> The image that is sometimes used as an all-round Linux logo is not
> "just Tux", but rather a particular representation of Tux in
> combination with a logotype and an orange splash.  The author of that
> logo is clearly aware of the distinction between a logo and a mascot:
>
> http://www-mddsp.enel.ucalgary.ca/People/adilger/logo/

These are too complex to be used as logos.

> Here's a page (a NetBSD logo contest entry) which addresses many of
> these concerns, and coincidentally underlines my point about the
> daemon not being exclusive to FreeBSD:
>
> http://homepage.mac.com/codesamurai/netbsd-logo-entry/

Technically very clean, but too cute.

> (this is so good I'm surprised NetBSD didn't adopt it, and I'd love to
> see it submitted to the FreeBSD logo contest)

Eeuh, no.  Too cute.  It's important to avoid anything that looks like a
cartoon.

The logo displayed on the NetBSD site is a zillion times better.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Louis LeBlanc writes:

> They why would they care *what* the logo is?

They wouldn't; but the logo has an effect on the people who write the
checks, and it serves a useful purpose as a unifying identifier.

The people who write the checks don't care about "skins," though, since
they'll never actually use the OS.

> Those of us that use FreeBSD every day on our desktops for 99.999% of
> everything we do on a computer of any kind would be more likely to
> have an opinion.

Some of us are so busy using FreeBSD for productive work that we don't
have time to play with "skins."  In the server configurations for which
FreeBSD is best suited, it really doesn't need any kind of GUI at all,
and is more efficient without one.

> Which should also be obvious by the length of this and at least one
> other thread on the subject here on questions alone.  I haven't even
> checked on advocacy.

Most of the people here are behaving like teenage boys.  Which means
they are _not_ behaving anything like IT professionals or business
decision makers.

> Regardless, I never had a problem with Beastie.  I like him.  He is
> the only mascot/logo/whatever associated with an OS (other than the
> window) that is actually relevant.

It's cute, but it has never had any effect on my attitude towards
FreeBSD.  The only thing that influences me is the software (and, to a
lesser extent, the attitudes of the people who produce it).

-- 
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Bart Silverstrim writes:

> People want to change the logo from Beastie to something else because
> Beastie isn't professional enough, so some committers decided to hold a
> contest for a new logo?

Beastie isn't a logo.  There is no logo for FreeBSD at the moment.
Creating one is probably a good idea.

> Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business would
> be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it?

Overall, no.  But some business owners are stupid.

A more likely problem is that the devil-worship aspect of Beastie might
prevent religiously fanatic potential customers from considering the OS
in the first place, thus making it impossible to get a foot in the door.
Once someone knows something about the operating system, I doubt that
Beastie makes any difference, even among highly religious people.

> Would you care if a business were that dumb...would you actually
> *want* them using it?

They could be dumb in that way, but still smart in IT.  There's
certainly no shortage of people in that category.

> Windows' logo isn't even a logo.  It's a flag of a window pane falling
> apart in the breeze.

It meets the criteria for a logo.

> Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not
> by commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department that is 
> trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector?  Is FreeBSD starting
> to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate 
> marketing?

Would you prefer that FreeBSD remain the best kept secret on the Web?
It's a good operating system ... why not promote it?  It's better than
Linux.  It would be nice to see a technically superior product actually
win, for once.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Vonleigh Simmons]

People want to change the logo from Beastie to something else because
Beastie isn't professional enough, so some committers decided to hold a
contest for a new logo?
	As an artist here is how I see it: Beastie is a mascot, not a logo. 
It's like having "Disney" with a Mickey Mouse. The logo is either the 
word Disney in that very distinct font, or the black ears. The mascot 
can be part of the logo but not always; in the Disney example it's 
derived from it (this approach could work with Beastie). Another 
example is monster.com, that also has a distinct mascot and a logo 
(don't like the logo, just pointing it out).

	So the logo contest could use beastie in some interesting way: framed, 
simplified, stylized, vectorized, etc.  In other words made into a real 
logo from the cartoon character. By stylize I mean for example what the 
fox looks like in the firefox logo.

	Changing logos is never a good thing, it's best done if it's done 
gradually (think apple losing the stripes). However I don't feel like 
freebsd has ever really had a logo identity to begin with. Just look 
here, all the beasties are different:


	If you're going to use beastie just standing like that, it has to be 
done much better, vectorize it or do it at a higher resolution. There 
needs to be a real professional logo.

	Finally: it's not about marketing, it's not about commercialization, 
it's about image. This is a very professional product, many people have 
contributed years of very hard work to get FreeBSD where it is today. 
The logo should show the dedication to the project and the high quality 
to which it aspires. If the image looks like it's drawn by a 15 year 
old[1], then that's what the project will look like. Ya, "don't judge a 
book by it's cover" sounds great if no one did it.


Vonleigh Simmons

[1] No offense intended. I don't think beastie is bad in any way, I 
just think that it looks dated; even the lettering for FreeBSD is dated 
as well.

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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Dick Davies]

* Bart Silverstrim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [0201 13:01]:
> 
> On Feb 11, 2005, at 2:18 AM, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> 
> >Ted Mittelstaedt writes:
> >
> >>That is so not true that it makes me almost as angry as the original
> >>debate.
> >
> >Maybe getting angry about a mere logo is a bad sign.
> 
> Just to sum up things as I understand it...
> 
> People want to change the logo from Beastie to something else because 
> Beastie isn't professional enough, so some committers decided to hold a 
> contest for a new logo?

Let me correct you there. This is what happened.

Someone wanted a logo in addition to beastie.
Someone got the wrong end of the stick.
Everyone with an opinion decided to tell everyone it.
 

-- 
'My life, and by extension everyone else's, is meaningless.'
-- Bender
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Bart Silverstrim]

On Feb 11, 2005, at 8:53 AM, Greg Barniskis wrote:
Bart Silverstrim wrote:
Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business 
would be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it?  
Would you care if a business were that dumb...would you actually 
*want* them using it?
The problem (from my point of view) really has a lot more to do with 
having to communicate about an OS after it is selected, rather than 
the act of selection (which is rightly based on technical merit). I 
need to communicate about ongoing server operations with boards of 
trustees, with my immediate customers, and indirectly with their 
customers. I can't use Beastie in these discussions because I can't 
afford the time to explain the multiple "inside jokes" re: 
daemon/demon, the tennis shoes, etc., over and over and over again, 
and I really, really can't afford to lose a debate about FreeBSD's 
"appropriateness".

While the amusing subtleties embodied in the Beatie emblem are indeed 
endearing to the IT community, they are a serious *drag* when 
communicating to the less clueful.
I suppose if my employers were that close in resemblance to the PHB in 
Dilbert, I'd probably just not use the logo and use some text version 
of the OS name.  That is, if they care enough to question it.  My 
employers don't know anything about our servers, and they don't care to 
know about them either, so they don't question it; just my immediate 
supervisor cares enough to know about the situation.

Maybe as an experiment I should introduce the logo sometime to the 
administrative staff to see if they question it.

I'm missing the part about the tennis shoes though.  I didn't realize 
that was part of the joke...? :-)

Windows' logo isn't even a logo.  It's a flag of a window pane 
falling apart in the breeze.  I associate windows with broken glass.  
These things don't seem to hinder Windows from getting massive market 
share.
My board of directors never looked at the Windows logo and said "What 
the f#$% is that!?". Argue all you like about the fact that people 
need to be more open and clueful, and how precious Beatie's legacy is 
(I agree it is), the bottom line is that some rather important people 
aren't very clueful, and many of them can't ever be expected to be 
clueful, and I don't have time to educate dozens of people every time 
I want to compare our organization's use of various OS flavors.

So, I limit myself to indicating "FreeBSD" by text only, and I know 
that the impact of that on the decision makers is somewhat lower than 
if I had a stylin' graphic suitable for use in official communications 
like uptime graphs, scope of use, service dependencies, project 
activities, etc.
I suppose you could always migrate to OpenBSD.  I always liked the 
blowfish.

My personal approach if stuck without a cluebat would be to just make 
something up just for your presentations.  If you honestly think they 
are going to run into FreeBSD info out there on the in-tar-net, they're 
GOING to get exposed to the evil devil like being.  And that logo, like 
it or not, is going to continue floating around out there.  It can't be 
pushed aside like some dark family secret.

Most clueless management have interest spans regarding technology that 
lasts about as long as the meeting in which they're exposed to the 
forbidden information.  Get the McDonald's logo or get a picture of a 
stack of pancakes and use that for your presentation.  I doubt they'd 
care about the difference.  Why have the world bend to the will of the 
minority to please a couple PHBs?  That's thinking like a PHB...

OK, so now maybe I expect some flamage about bein' chicken, not 
standing up for what's right, etc. Well, horse hockey. I have a duty 
to my employer not to waste everyone's time with the deamon/demon 
discussion (over and over and over again). It would be one thing if we 
could do it once and get it over with, but that is clearly not the 
case.
If it's your duty not to waste their time with daemon/demon (etc), why 
are you bringing it up?  Oh, you mean THEY are bringing it it up.  
After you already explained it.  So THEY're the problem, since they 
aren't listening and remembering.  AND they're wasting your time by 
having you review the material again and rehash issues regarding a 
*logo* instead of what the meeting is supposed to be about?

Just checking.
Your duty should be to answer their questions and go over pertinent 
information for the presentation.  If they want to know about it 
*again*, give them the info.  If they keep forgetting, print up a 
pamphlet.  There may already be stuff at the FreeBSD advocacy sites 
ready to print.

--
Greg Barniskis, Computer Systems Integrator
South Central Library System (SCLS)
Library Interchange Network (LINK)
, (608) 266-6348

You work in a library and yet they don't want to be educated.  I always 
found that ironic.

The best way to punish educated people?  Make them read.  I found that 
the longer my ema

Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Napper]

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:53:17 -0600
Greg Barniskis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Bart Silverstrim wrote:
> 
> > Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business would 
> > be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it?  Would you 
> > care if a business were that dumb...would you actually *want* them using 
> > it?
> 
> The problem (from my point of view) really has a lot more to do with 
> having to communicate about an OS after it is selected, rather than 
> the act of selection (which is rightly based on technical merit). I 
> need to communicate about ongoing server operations with boards of 
> trustees, with my immediate customers, and indirectly with their 
> customers. I can't use Beastie in these discussions because I can't 
> afford the time to explain the multiple "inside jokes" re: 
> daemon/demon, the tennis shoes, etc., over and over and over again, 
> and I really, really can't afford to lose a debate about FreeBSD's 
> "appropriateness".
> 
> While the amusing subtleties embodied in the Beatie emblem are 
> indeed endearing to the IT community, they are a serious *drag* when 
> communicating to the less clueful.
> 
> > Windows' logo isn't even a logo.  It's a flag of a window pane falling 
> > apart in the breeze.  I associate windows with broken glass.  These 
> > things don't seem to hinder Windows from getting massive market share.
> 
> My board of directors never looked at the Windows logo and said 
> "What the f#$% is that!?". Argue all you like about the fact that 
> people need to be more open and clueful, and how precious Beatie's 
> legacy is (I agree it is), the bottom line is that some rather 
> important people aren't very clueful, and many of them can't ever be 
> expected to be clueful, and I don't have time to educate dozens of 
> people every time I want to compare our organization's use of 
> various OS flavors.
> 
> So, I limit myself to indicating "FreeBSD" by text only, and I know 
> that the impact of that on the decision makers is somewhat lower 
> than if I had a stylin' graphic suitable for use in official 
> communications like uptime graphs, scope of use, service 
> dependencies, project activities, etc.
> 
> OK, so now maybe I expect some flamage about bein' chicken, not 
> standing up for what's right, etc. Well, horse hockey. I have a duty 
> to my employer not to waste everyone's time with the deamon/demon 
> discussion (over and over and over again). It would be one thing if 
> we could do it once and get it over with, but that is clearly not 
> the case.

I think that exactly the need Core is trying to address along 
with addressing the mechanics of logo (not mascot) reproduction.

Its been my experience that the corporate suits get the
perception of "teenage hacker" from the cartoonish mascots.  Truth
or not, perception is what matters and we do need something a
bit more mature and professional.

Whether or not I like the mascot is beside the point entirely.
I want to see FreeBSD grow and penetrate new market areas.  I
fully expect things to change to accomodate this and support
Core's decisions.  I hope others can get past their emotional
reactions and approach this from a practical standpoint.

There's been far too much discussion and speculation about all
this.  Just wait for the official announcement.  The draft of
the contest announcement did not necessarily indicate what will
be in the final document.

Nap


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Greg Barniskis]

Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote:
Here's a page (a NetBSD logo contest entry) which addresses many of
these concerns, and coincidentally underlines my point about the
daemon not being exclusive to FreeBSD:
http://homepage.mac.com/codesamurai/netbsd-logo-entry/
That is not bad. But is it sufficiently different from the original 
Beastie that it is not burdened with being a "derivative worK" in 
terms of copyright?

Understanding that this distinction cannot be really certain except 
as a consequence of litigation on that point, the underlying 
question is "Do you really want to go there?". I suppose the 
solution to the potential ambiguity for this or any other comparable 
logo would be to get McKusick to sign off on it in some formal way, 
indicating "that is not Beastie".

--
Greg Barniskis, Computer Systems Integrator
South Central Library System (SCLS)
Library Interchange Network (LINK)
, (608) 266-6348
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Louis LeBlanc]

On 02/11/05 09:52 AM, Anthony Atkielski sat at the `puter and typed:
> Mike Hauber writes:
> 
> > Heh...  This gives me an idea...  How about FreeBSD "skins."  The
> > Beastie as the default (of course), and dis_ey-type themes for 
> > the "weak in the faith".  If FreeBSD's attempt is not to be 
> > offensive to anyone, anywhere, anytime, then perhaps it just 
> > needs to jump into a different skin for everybody (corporate or 
> > otherwise) it serves...  Perhaps a questionare to be filled out 
> > in the beginnings of sysinstall would let the system know what is 
> > to be considered "appropriate."
> 
> This sort of idea betrays the geek atmosphere that pervades FreeBSD and
> many other open-source efforts.  It might please geeks installing the
> OS, but it only makes it look like a toy to people who are installing it
> for serious use.  Nobody sitting in a machine room in front of a rack of
> servers is going to care anything about "skins."

They why would they care *what* the logo is?  Those of us that use
FreeBSD every day on our desktops for 99.999% of everything we do on a
computer of any kind would be more likely to have an opinion.

Which should also be obvious by the length of this and at least one
other thread on the subject here on questions alone.  I haven't even
checked on advocacy.

I'm just going to say this.  I use FreeBSD for EVERYTHING I do until
I'm forced to open a word doc someone else will have to edit and see.
I know there are alternatives, but they don't seem to have some of the
features needed for the stuff I get at work.

Regardless, I never had a problem with Beastie.  I like him.  He is
the only mascot/logo/whatever associated with an OS (other than the
window) that is actually relevant.  What the hell does a penguin have
to do with Linux?  What does a red hat have to do, except to repeat
the name?  Even Puffy isn't really relevant except to try to represent
the security features -why not an armadillo?

Even when I was a "spiritual" and "faithful" Catholic, I never had a
problem with Beastie.  I know that christians buy Deviled Ham every
day, watch the Blue Devils play football or whatever it is they do,
and use Red Devil paints and caulking to winterize their houses, and
don't think twice, but now Beastie is coming under fire because he's
red, has horns and a tail and a fork.  Must be Satan.  Therefore
people that love FreeBSD love Satan.  That's logic.

I don't think I have the energy to keep posting to this thread.  I
have other things to deal with.  I'm just going to restate my opinion
here one last time.

There were obviously some assumptions made about the intentions of the
core group.  Most, if not all were probably wrong.  At least about
the way they were planning this whole contest.  I don't think anyone
ever intended to doubt the fact they are genuinely interested in
nothing more than spreading FreeBSD and it's welfare.  The more people
that use it the better appreciated they'll feel.  Perfectly
reasonable.  I suspect that whether they are right or wrong about
Beasties impact on the spread is the only issue at hand.

Beastie is relevant, he's well liked by those that understand him.
There is no good reason to remove him.  You want to build a multi
faced distribution with "skins", go right ahead.  Contrary to the
previous post, I don't think I'd really have any problem with it.
Just don't remove the beastie images from the distribution, and don't
make it a pain in the ass to keep him in the boot screen.

I know there will be plenty of people that disagree, but these are my
opinions and I'm sticking with them.  No, not blindly.  Maybe I'm just
not business savvy, but I never set out to be.  I *have* my reasons
for wanting the look of FreeBSD to stay the same, and they're not
based on other peoples sensitivities, beliefs or hysteria.

Just let me know if the beastie shirts go on sale.  I'll stock up.

Lou
-- 
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Fully Funded Hobbyist,   KeySlapper Extrordinaire :)
Please send off-list email to: leblanc at keyslapper d.t net
Key fingerprint = C5E7 4762 F071 CE3B ED51  4FB8 AF85 A2FE 80C8 D9A2

Cahn's Axiom:
  When all else fails, read the instructions.


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Description: PGP signature

Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Dag-Erling Smørgrav]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Imagine Linux dropping Tux for some meanlingless, lifeless logo?

I'm glad you asked.

Tux is a mascot, not a logo.  These are Linux logos:

http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topiccaldera.gif
http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicdebian.gif
http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicmandrake.gif
http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicredhat.gif
http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicsuse.gif
http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicturbolinux.gif

The image that is sometimes used as an all-round Linux logo is not
"just Tux", but rather a particular representation of Tux in
combination with a logotype and an orange splash.  The author of that
logo is clearly aware of the distinction between a logo and a mascot:

http://www-mddsp.enel.ucalgary.ca/People/adilger/logo/

Likewise, Beastie is a mascot, not a logo.  In fact, it fails the
primary and most important test of logoness: it is not exclusive to
the FreeBSD project, but is shared by all BSD projects.  It also fails
several other important tests of logoness: it is not under the FreeBSD
project's direct control (our use of it is subject to the whim and
mercy of Kirk McKusick); it is not a registered trademark; it is
probably too diluted already to even be eligible to be registered as a
trademark.  This does not even begin to consider the technical aspects
(ease of reproduction, scalability, representability in monochrome,
recognizability under different and sometimes difficult conditions,
etc.)

Here's a page (a NetBSD logo contest entry) which addresses many of
these concerns, and coincidentally underlines my point about the
daemon not being exclusive to FreeBSD:

http://homepage.mac.com/codesamurai/netbsd-logo-entry/

(this is so good I'm surprised NetBSD didn't adopt it, and I'd love to
see it submitted to the FreeBSD logo contest)

DES
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Greg Barniskis]

Bart Silverstrim wrote:
Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business would 
be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it?  Would you 
care if a business were that dumb...would you actually *want* them using 
it?
The problem (from my point of view) really has a lot more to do with 
having to communicate about an OS after it is selected, rather than 
the act of selection (which is rightly based on technical merit). I 
need to communicate about ongoing server operations with boards of 
trustees, with my immediate customers, and indirectly with their 
customers. I can't use Beastie in these discussions because I can't 
afford the time to explain the multiple "inside jokes" re: 
daemon/demon, the tennis shoes, etc., over and over and over again, 
and I really, really can't afford to lose a debate about FreeBSD's 
"appropriateness".

While the amusing subtleties embodied in the Beatie emblem are 
indeed endearing to the IT community, they are a serious *drag* when 
communicating to the less clueful.

Windows' logo isn't even a logo.  It's a flag of a window pane falling 
apart in the breeze.  I associate windows with broken glass.  These 
things don't seem to hinder Windows from getting massive market share.
My board of directors never looked at the Windows logo and said 
"What the f#$% is that!?". Argue all you like about the fact that 
people need to be more open and clueful, and how precious Beatie's 
legacy is (I agree it is), the bottom line is that some rather 
important people aren't very clueful, and many of them can't ever be 
expected to be clueful, and I don't have time to educate dozens of 
people every time I want to compare our organization's use of 
various OS flavors.

So, I limit myself to indicating "FreeBSD" by text only, and I know 
that the impact of that on the decision makers is somewhat lower 
than if I had a stylin' graphic suitable for use in official 
communications like uptime graphs, scope of use, service 
dependencies, project activities, etc.

OK, so now maybe I expect some flamage about bein' chicken, not 
standing up for what's right, etc. Well, horse hockey. I have a duty 
to my employer not to waste everyone's time with the deamon/demon 
discussion (over and over and over again). It would be one thing if 
we could do it once and get it over with, but that is clearly not 
the case.

--
Greg Barniskis, Computer Systems Integrator
South Central Library System (SCLS)
Library Interchange Network (LINK)
, (608) 266-6348
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Bart Silverstrim]

On Feb 11, 2005, at 2:18 AM, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Ted Mittelstaedt writes:
That is so not true that it makes me almost as angry as the original
debate.
Maybe getting angry about a mere logo is a bad sign.
Just to sum up things as I understand it...
People want to change the logo from Beastie to something else because 
Beastie isn't professional enough, so some committers decided to hold a 
contest for a new logo?

Out of curiosity, is Beastie so terrible, a logo, that a business would 
be stupid enough to base their server decisions based on it?  Would you 
care if a business were that dumb...would you actually *want* them 
using it?

Someone said people change logos all the time.  That's flat out wrong.  
When a company spends mucho dinero on marketing their logo, they don't 
just flip around and decide to change their logo that they spent so 
much money and time getting mindshare with.  Have any examples of logos 
that have constantly changed?

Windows' logo isn't even a logo.  It's a flag of a window pane falling 
apart in the breeze.  I associate windows with broken glass.  These 
things don't seem to hinder Windows from getting massive market share.

Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and not 
by commercial matters, suddenly gain a marketing department that is 
trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector?  Is FreeBSD starting 
to have marketing dictate technology instead of technology dictate 
marketing?

Or is this all some sneaky way of saying that Beastie is too much like 
the Devil and this new logo contest is a way to slip out the 
connotative Beastie with some other more politically correct symbol, 
like the drive in American classrooms for Intelligent Design to be 
taught in science classes ("It's not Creationism! It's not Creationism! 
 It's *science*...")

Just asking, since I was largely ignoring the thread but got curious 
after so MANY posts were made about the topic.

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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Mike Hauber writes:

> Heh...  This gives me an idea...  How about FreeBSD "skins."  The
> Beastie as the default (of course), and dis_ey-type themes for 
> the "weak in the faith".  If FreeBSD's attempt is not to be 
> offensive to anyone, anywhere, anytime, then perhaps it just 
> needs to jump into a different skin for everybody (corporate or 
> otherwise) it serves...  Perhaps a questionare to be filled out 
> in the beginnings of sysinstall would let the system know what is 
> to be considered "appropriate."

This sort of idea betrays the geek atmosphere that pervades FreeBSD and
many other open-source efforts.  It might please geeks installing the
OS, but it only makes it look like a toy to people who are installing it
for serious use.  Nobody sitting in a machine room in front of a rack of
servers is going to care anything about "skins."

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Mike Hauber]

On Friday 11 February 2005 12:31 am, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> There can be only ONE 'flagship' logo just as there is only one
> company name in a conglomerate.  But there is plenty of space
> for different subsidiary marks for the product.
>
> For example, Chevrolet, Buick, Saturn, these are all part of
> General Motors.  However they have their own distinct brands
> and logos and such.  But, there is only ONE name for the
> company - GM - that is used when talking about the -entire-
> enchalada.

Heh...  This gives me an idea...  How about FreeBSD "skins."  The 
Beastie as the default (of course), and dis_ey-type themes for 
the "weak in the faith".  If FreeBSD's attempt is not to be 
offensive to anyone, anywhere, anytime, then perhaps it just 
needs to jump into a different skin for everybody (corporate or 
otherwise) it serves...  Perhaps a questionare to be filled out 
in the beginnings of sysinstall would let the system know what is 
to be considered "appropriate."

(hey...  anythings possible)  :)

Mike
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Ted Mittelstaedt writes:

> That is so not true that it makes me almost as angry as the original
> debate.

Maybe getting angry about a mere logo is a bad sign.

-- 
Anthony


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RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

> -Original Message-
> From: Garance A Drosehn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 1:17 PM
> To: Ted Mittelstaedt; freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org
> Subject: RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as
> NetBSD!!!
>
>
> At 12:50 AM -0800 2/10/05, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> >No, sorry.  The core team apparently feels that the way to do things
> >now is to made decisions of this nature first, then have discussion
> >later, rather than the reverse which previously has been the case.
>
> This contest came out because the developers who actually work on
> freebsd had a very energetic debate on the topic.  Core stepped in
> before we started throwing pies at each other, and came up with
> this idea:  *Keep* Beastie as the official mascot, but then have a
>  >   PUBLIC CONTEST  <  
> open to     >  EVERYONE <  
> to see if we might also come up with some alternate logo.
>
> >However, as the core team as apparently represented by R Watson
> >has stated they want to consider this internally first, then
> >just tell the userbase what they are going to do later on, I
> >say screw you, and I'll argue and fight against this topic for
> >years.
>
> How silly.  "Internally" means "among all the committers who spend
> their time, effort, and money making commits to the FreeBSD project".
> It does not mean "Robert Watson talked to his navel, and they agreed
> on this course of action".
>
> The actual developers.  The people you pretend to respect, unless
> anyone one of them has a single idea which might disagree with you.
>

The postings among the userbase in questions and advocacy are
mainly agreeing with me and not with you.  The users you pretend to
respect unless you have a single idea which disagrees with them.

> While you seem determined to pretend that Robert Watson is somehow
> the sole person interested in this, let me note I am one of the
> FreeBSD committers who would like to see some new ideas for a logo.

Good.  At least you have my respect now for growing some balls and
admitting it publically.  Would the rest of the
anti-beastie committers please come out of the bushes now?

> Now if nothing particularly special comes from this contest, then
> fine, at least we *tried*.  But apparently you think we're not even
> supposed to try.
>

No, I think that you are welcome to try but you aren't welcome to
take whatever you get and replace the logo of Beastie, (and I don't
mean the stylized pictures of him that aren't logos, I mean the
logo picture that WC and BSDI used for years, and is still on the
index page of the FreeBSD website) as the flagship logo of FreeBSD.

FreeBSD is big enough to have multiple logos.  But there is only
one logo that is the central, main, flagship logo.  Any non-beastie
logo you come up with should never be used except in instances
where the beastie logo is absolutely unacceptable to some commercial
enterprise, and a logo is a requirement.

> Why would I like some other logo?  Because in addition to committing
> the occasional patch to FreeBSD (totalling some 500+ commits), I do
> public presentations to groups of non-FreeBSD'ers about FreeBSD.  I
> am trying to promote FreeBSD -- THE OPERATING SYSTEM -- and I am
> tired of spending my time explaining some cartoon character.  I am
> in this project because of the quality of the operating system, and
> NOT because I have some deranged need to defend some "in joke" about
> daemons.
>

It surprises me you feel the need to use a logo at all in these
instances.

> As I said on the committers mailing list when we were debating this
> topic:  The beastie icon does *not* separate "close-minded" people
> from "open-minded" people.  It does *not* separate the "religious"
> people from "non-religious" people.  It does not even separate
> "Christian" people from "non-Christian" people.  The only thing
> that logo does is separate "People who already know Unix" from
> "People who have never heard of a daemon process".

Perhaps.

>  It is nothing
> more than an "in joke", where we can feel smug about how "smart"
> we are when some poor goober is stupid enough to ask "So why do
> you use some cute-looking demon for your icon?".
>

The daemon image far predates FreeBSD or
any of the BSD's for that matter and goes right back to Ma Bell.  Greg
documented it back to 1976, and I do not recall the daemons on the
front cover of the early BSD manuals to have much "cuteness" factor
to them.

Perhaps at one time it was an "in-joke"

RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

> -Original Message-
> From: Garance A Drosehn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 1:17 PM
> To: Ted Mittelstaedt
> Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org
> Subject: RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as
> NetBSD!!!
>
>
> At 12:50 AM -0800 2/10/05, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> >
> >>  It is clear from
> >>  reading both lists that much of the anger is based upon false
> >>  assumptions, misinformation and incomplete editing of the leaked
> >>  document.
> >>
> >
> >Sorry, but that is false.
> >
> >Much of the anger is based on Robert Watson (and whatever other
> >core members are arguing with him over this) not IMMEDIATELY
> >becoming completely forthright with the FreeBSD community as
> >soon as the leak occurred.
>
> Geez.  Get real.
>
> One committer had *just* put up the site, and then other committers
> were given a chance to look it over and see if it all made sense.
> We wanted to given all committers a chance to cross-check it, and
> make sure we didn't forget to say anything important.

Thank you Garance for being a bit more forthright with the community,
in a grudging sort of way I guess.

>
> >I am deeply concerned with what I see going on here.  Since when
> >has the FreeBSD Project had "secret" information of a sales and
> >marketing nature?  This is a brand new one to me.
>
> What a crazy thing to say.  The whole purpose of this web site was
> to announce a PUBLIC CONTEST for ANYONE to submit their ideas for
> a possible new logo.  Once we DID announce it, the public would
> have had 1-3 months to hash out whatever they wanted to hash out.
>

And of course, the logo selected will not have Beastie in it.  That
does not sound like anyone is free to submit their ideas for a
possible new logo.  That sounds like anyone is free to submit their
ideas that happen to fall into your guy's pre-decided idea of what
the new logo will look like.

>
> >I can condone secrets in the area of leaglities - such as back in
> >the bad old days when UCB was sued by USL, there were many secrets,
> >a few that I and some others were able to ferret out but still
> >many buried, and still some people under gag orders.
>
> Man, you must see a lot of black helicopters every day you walk
> to work.
>
> It is not a "deep dark secret" to proof-read a web site before
> ANNOUNCING TO EVERYONE that they might WIN MONEY(!!) by reading that
> web site.  Geez.  I proof-read this message before I post it, and
> I'm only replying to comments from one moron with black helicopters
> flying out of his ass.

And yet in this posting you have publically stated some things that
were not revealed yesterday in Advocacy or here.  Yet you claim there's
no secrets.  Right.

> How much more time should be spent proof-
> reading a public site which we intend to point everyone at?
>

Despite all prostations to the contrary this issue has nothing to
do with proofreading.

> >Yes I understand that some commercial consultants and such have had
> >problems due to the logo being a devil image.  But if Robert Watson
> >had wanted to respond to this then he should have brought it up
> >for discussion with the userbase immediately, not sneaked around
> >talking to his cronies at Apple Computer, trying to figure out how
> >to push this off onto the userbase in a way that people wouldn't
> >object to doing so.
>
> It is apparent that you are not interested in any facts, but Robert
> was not one of the main promoters of this idea.  In fact, I don't
> remember him saying much of anything about it at the time we
> (FreeBSD committers) were debating it.
>

Then I guess at least Robert had the balls yesterday to get out
and take the heat for something he wasn't promoting - shielding the
rest of you cowards who are promoting it yet are not willing
to admit it on any of the forums that the userbase frequents
and get your shorts flamed off.

> >This logo competition is childish - 99% of the
> >FreeBSD community members are not graphic artists and couldn't draw
> >their way out of a paper bag - such a competition does not have as
> >it's goal that of obtaining an image, it's only goal is assuaging
> >pissed off people by pretending that they have a hand in the decision.
>
> More black helicopters.  Geez.  I expect all the submissions will
> be public, and then we (the committers) will pick the one we like
> the best.

Exactly.  You committers will pick whatever you want and not what the
userbase wants.  That is why people are spitting mad on this.

>
> You might remember that the bsdnews.com 

RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Garance A
> Drosehn
> Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 11:26 AM
> To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as
> NetBSD!!!
>
>
> It is interesting that I constantly hear "FreeBSD MUST have the
> Beastie as the only logo for FreeBSD.  We MUST NOT even consider
> any other logo -- because if we consider ANY other logo, we will
> be close-minded!".
>

That is so not true that it makes me almost as angry as the original
debate.

Go read Advocacy, where all this started, I made a post there
which specifically called for the people offended by the beastie
image to go design their politically correct logo, and to use it
with their dealings with their customers.  Nobody in the pro-beastie
camp is saying they can't do this.  What is actually happening is
the people offended by the beastie image are asking the rest of
us to stop using it as a logo and substitute some watered-down
PC version of it that (at least this year) supposedly offends no
one and will become the 'official logo'

> So, there is one-and-only-one valid logo for FreeBSD, and that
> is because FreeBSD is so very open-minded?
>

There can be only ONE 'flagship' logo just as there is only one
company name in a conglomerate.  But there is plenty of space
for different subsidiary marks for the product.

For example, Chevrolet, Buick, Saturn, these are all part of
General Motors.  However they have their own distinct brands and
logos and such.  But, there is only ONE name for the company - GM -
that is used when talking about the -entire- enchalada.

> Note that the contest is just to see what logos people can come
> up with.  It's not like we are demanding that the logo must have
> angels in it, or a picture of some other religious figure.
> Nothing more than "Let's see what ideas people can come up with".
>

And if some of the suggestions reproduce Beastie in all his
un-politically correct glory, what then?  What if they put it
to a vote and the userbase all votes for logos that clearly
represent the Beastie image?  What will have been the point of
the contest?

You know darn well your blowing air on the contest.
Unless the contest admins deliberately filter out and restrict
all beastie likenesses, the contest will be dominated with
Beasties.  And unless they don't put it to the userbase for a
vote, the userbase will go for beastie.

Ted

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RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Garance A Drosehn]

At 12:50 AM -0800 2/10/05, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
No, sorry.  The core team apparently feels that the way to do things
now is to made decisions of this nature first, then have discussion
later, rather than the reverse which previously has been the case.
This contest came out because the developers who actually work on
freebsd had a very energetic debate on the topic.  Core stepped in
before we started throwing pies at each other, and came up with
this idea:  *Keep* Beastie as the official mascot, but then have a
    >   PUBLIC CONTEST  <  
open to     >  EVERYONE <  
to see if we might also come up with some alternate logo.
However, as the core team as apparently represented by R Watson
has stated they want to consider this internally first, then
just tell the userbase what they are going to do later on, I
say screw you, and I'll argue and fight against this topic for
years.
How silly.  "Internally" means "among all the committers who spend
their time, effort, and money making commits to the FreeBSD project".
It does not mean "Robert Watson talked to his navel, and they agreed
on this course of action".
The actual developers.  The people you pretend to respect, unless
anyone one of them has a single idea which might disagree with you.
While you seem determined to pretend that Robert Watson is somehow
the sole person interested in this, let me note I am one of the
FreeBSD committers who would like to see some new ideas for a logo.
Now if nothing particularly special comes from this contest, then
fine, at least we *tried*.  But apparently you think we're not even
supposed to try.
Why would I like some other logo?  Because in addition to committing
the occasional patch to FreeBSD (totalling some 500+ commits), I do
public presentations to groups of non-FreeBSD'ers about FreeBSD.  I
am trying to promote FreeBSD -- THE OPERATING SYSTEM -- and I am
tired of spending my time explaining some cartoon character.  I am
in this project because of the quality of the operating system, and
NOT because I have some deranged need to defend some "in joke" about
daemons.
As I said on the committers mailing list when we were debating this
topic:  The beastie icon does *not* separate "close-minded" people
from "open-minded" people.  It does *not* separate the "religious"
people from "non-religious" people.  It does not even separate
"Christian" people from "non-Christian" people.  The only thing
that logo does is separate "People who already know Unix" from
"People who have never heard of a daemon process".  It is nothing
more than an "in joke", where we can feel smug about how "smart"
we are when some poor goober is stupid enough to ask "So why do
you use some cute-looking demon for your icon?".
When I have done public presentations for FreeBSD, I have never had
anyone reject FreeBSD because of the deamon.  Not once. And if I
am talking to a group of Unix-people, I don't even have to explain
the beastie icon.
On the other hand, I do sometimes get people who have no experience
with Unix.  And those people will look at me like I am still some
kid trying to defend the Major Matt Mason as being an "action figure"
instead of a doll.  Their attitude is "Okay -- so unix has these
things called a 'daemon process' -- but I still don't get why is it
so important that your icon must be this cartoon".  They would have
the exact same attitude if we happened to call those processes 'a buzz
process', and then made our icon be Buzz Lightyear.  The "religious
connotation" is not relevant, because most the people I talk to are
simply not all that religious.  And yet they still look at me like
I am nuts when I am explaining the logo, and I see no reason I should
continue to waste my time giving people a lesson in the history of
the word 'daemon'.  I am a programmer, not a teacher of linguistics
or word-history.
--
Garance Alistair Drosehn =  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Senior Systems Programmer   or   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY;  USA
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RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Garance A Drosehn]

At 12:50 AM -0800 2/10/05, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

 It is clear from
 reading both lists that much of the anger is based upon false
 assumptions, misinformation and incomplete editing of the leaked
 document.
Sorry, but that is false.
Much of the anger is based on Robert Watson (and whatever other
core members are arguing with him over this) not IMMEDIATELY
becoming completely forthright with the FreeBSD community as
soon as the leak occurred.
Geez.  Get real.
One committer had *just* put up the site, and then other committers
were given a chance to look it over and see if it all made sense.
We wanted to given all committers a chance to cross-check it, and
make sure we didn't forget to say anything important.  What is up
there right now is nothing more than a first draft.
As far as I know, Robert responded on the same day that I found
out that this rough-draft site had been mentioned in public.  It's
not like we've had six months of denials, with press-reporters
hounding Robert every night on the evening news.
Perhaps it was announced on slashdot a few days earlier, but
frankly, I (for one) never read slashdot.  That is not any
conspiracy, it is simply that I don't have the time.  I (for one)
did not know the contest's web site was leaked until the article
showed up at the bsdnews.com site.  BSDnews.  I work on BSD
operating systems, so that's the web site that I read.
I am deeply concerned with what I see going on here.  Since when
has the FreeBSD Project had "secret" information of a sales and
marketing nature?  This is a brand new one to me.
What a crazy thing to say.  The whole purpose of this web site was
to announce a PUBLIC CONTEST for ANYONE to submit their ideas for
a possible new logo.  Once we DID announce it, the public would
have had 1-3 months to hash out whatever they wanted to hash out.
(One of the reasons we had not already announced this web site is
that we were still deciding how long that period should be.  It
started as one month, but I think now we're thinking maybe two or
two-and-a-half months).
I can condone secrets in the area of leaglities - such as back in
the bad old days when UCB was sued by USL, there were many secrets,
a few that I and some others were able to ferret out but still
many buried, and still some people under gag orders.
Man, you must see a lot of black helicopters every day you walk
to work.
It is not a "deep dark secret" to proof-read a web site before
ANNOUNCING TO EVERYONE that they might WIN MONEY(!!) by reading that
web site.  Geez.  I proof-read this message before I post it, and
I'm only replying to comments from one moron with black helicopters
flying out of his ass.  How much more time should be spent proof-
reading a public site which we intend to point everyone at?
Yes I understand that some commercial consultants and such have had
problems due to the logo being a devil image.  But if Robert Watson
had wanted to respond to this then he should have brought it up
for discussion with the userbase immediately, not sneaked around
talking to his cronies at Apple Computer, trying to figure out how
to push this off onto the userbase in a way that people wouldn't
object to doing so.
It is apparent that you are not interested in any facts, but Robert
was not one of the main promoters of this idea.  In fact, I don't
remember him saying much of anything about it at the time we
(FreeBSD committers) were debating it.
This logo competition is childish - 99% of the
FreeBSD community members are not graphic artists and couldn't draw
their way out of a paper bag - such a competition does not have as
it's goal that of obtaining an image, it's only goal is assuaging
pissed off people by pretending that they have a hand in the decision.
More black helicopters.  Geez.  I expect all the submissions will
be public, and then we (the committers) will pick the one we like
the best.  It is unquestionably true that I (for one) have no
artistic talent.  However, that does not mean that I can not possibly
know anyone who makes a full-time living as a well-paid graphic artist.
Nope.  That simply must not be possible, even though RPI offers a
degree in "Electronic Arts".  And therefore it absolutely *must* be
true that this contest will come up with a hand-drawn stick-figure
logo.  And it *must* be true that we've already picked that pathetic
logo, and we're just announcing this contest as a cover story.  Yep.
It must be true.  Ted says so.  What a stupid position to take.
[aside: a few years ago I paid one of my friends to draw up an idea
I had for a logo, using malamutes, but we never did come up with
something that we were really happy with.  So nothing became of that.
But he has drawn up other very nice things for me.  So just because
I cannot draw, does not mean I cannot find anyone to draw for me...]
You might remember that the bsdnews.com site used to have a very
nicely drawn cartoon strip.  Extremely well drawn, IMO.  It is a
pity that you apparently don't get out enough to m

Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Louis LeBlanc writes:

> If there were a *reasonable* basis for changing, I would be in favor
> of the proposed change.  Sadly, but in favor nonetheless.  The
> "business" reasons mentioned are not sound given the fact that there
> are *real* devils used as mascots and logos in the food, sports, and
> other industries.

The devil aspect is unimportant.  What is important is that there is a
need for a simple and flexible logo for brand identification.  The
current Beastie image, besides being inconsistent, is almost totally
unsuitable for the technologies with which a logo must be used.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Louis LeBlanc]

On 02/10/05 02:26 PM, Garance A Drosehn sat at the `puter and typed:
> At 10:59 AM -0500 2/10/05, Louis LeBlanc wrote:
> >  >
> >  > Logos need to be as neutral as possible, since they will be
> >  > very widely used and very heavily imprinted in customers'
> >  > minds.  They must not conjure up thoughts of anything except
> >  > the brand they represent.
> >
> >Neutrality is purely objective in this case (and many others).
> >Uninformed neutrality can be highly inflammatory.  Beastie is only
> >considered inflammatory to those uninformed fundamentalists who
> >haven't been satisfied beating down every other freedom in this
> >country and need someone or something else to pick on.  Next
> >they'll be burning books and witches again.
> 
> It is interesting that I constantly hear "FreeBSD MUST have the
> Beastie as the only logo for FreeBSD.  We MUST NOT even consider
> any other logo -- because if we consider ANY other logo, we will
> be close-minded!".

I don't remember ever being accused of close mindedness.  Being open
or closed minded has nothing to do with this.  The issue of replacing
Beastie has come up in the past, and in my opinion, the reasons have
always been all wrong.  I, along with a lot of other members of the
community feel strongly enough about it to voice our opinions every
time this comes up.

> So, there is one-and-only-one valid logo for FreeBSD, and that
> is because FreeBSD is so very open-minded?

The logo is what it is.  It has been the logo, and Beastie himself the
mascot, since long before I started using FreeBSD, and is considerd by
many to be an integral part of FreeBSDs identity.

Granted, changing a logo isn't always a bad thing, but doing it for
the wrong reasons is.  It is my not so humble opinion that changing
your identity to suit an overly sensitive vocal minority is always the
wrong reason.  On that I'm afraid maybe I am close minded.

> Note that the contest is just to see what logos people can come
> up with.  It's not like we are demanding that the logo must have
> angels in it, or a picture of some other religious figure.
> Nothing more than "Let's see what ideas people can come up with".

Now, you see, mentioning angels is really a good point.  The problem I
have there is that angels are strictly a modern religious symbol.
Daemons are not.  At least not with anything anyone considers a modern
religion - it's more widely associated with an ancient mythos, but the
concept is relevant to the OS, and that's the thing about Beastie that
makes him perfect for FreeBSD.

Demons are modern religious symbols, Devils are, the cross used by
christians is.  It's not reasonable to suppress something *outside*
your system of beliefs just because something negative *within* your
system of beliefs is based on it.  That's what I see happening, and
why I'm vehemently and vocally opposed to the change.

If there were a *reasonable* basis for changing, I would be in favor
of the proposed change.  Sadly, but in favor nonetheless.  The
"business" reasons mentioned are not sound given the fact that there
are *real* devils used as mascots and logos in the food, sports, and
other industries.  The issue of religious sensibilities is plain
ridiculous, given that Beastie is completely unrelated to the
(mythos'/faiths/religions) those objections are based on.  As I said,
next they'll be burning books and witches again.

Lou
-- 
Louis LeBlanc  FreeBSD-at-keyslapper-DOT-net
Fully Funded Hobbyist,   KeySlapper Extrordinaire :)
Please send off-list email to: leblanc at keyslapper d.t net
Key fingerprint = C5E7 4762 F071 CE3B ED51  4FB8 AF85 A2FE 80C8 D9A2

share, n.:
  To give in, endure humiliation.


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Garance A Drosehn]

At 10:59 AM -0500 2/10/05, Louis LeBlanc wrote:
 >
 > Logos need to be as neutral as possible, since they will be
 > very widely used and very heavily imprinted in customers'
 > minds.  They must not conjure up thoughts of anything except
 > the brand they represent.
Neutrality is purely objective in this case (and many others).
Uninformed neutrality can be highly inflammatory.  Beastie is only
considered inflammatory to those uninformed fundamentalists who
haven't been satisfied beating down every other freedom in this
country and need someone or something else to pick on.  Next
they'll be burning books and witches again.
It is interesting that I constantly hear "FreeBSD MUST have the
Beastie as the only logo for FreeBSD.  We MUST NOT even consider
any other logo -- because if we consider ANY other logo, we will
be close-minded!".
So, there is one-and-only-one valid logo for FreeBSD, and that
is because FreeBSD is so very open-minded?
Note that the contest is just to see what logos people can come
up with.  It's not like we are demanding that the logo must have
angels in it, or a picture of some other religious figure.
Nothing more than "Let's see what ideas people can come up with".
--
Garance Alistair Drosehn =  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Senior Systems Programmer   or   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY;  USA
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Louis LeBlanc]

On 02/09/05 09:45 PM, Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC sat at the `puter and typed:
> 
> On Feb 9, 2005, at 3:50 PM, Louis LeBlanc wrote:
> 
> > And in the past, I've only ever worn or
> > used logos if they were for the Red Sox, the Patriots (and even those
> > sparingly), or a free shirt.  Hey, free is free, right?
> 
> What, no Celtics?

Not much of a hoop fan :|

> I will admit to having bought lots of Apple shirts and a Celtics shirt. 
>   The rest of my logos shirts are of the free sort I pick up at 
> conferences and from vendors :-)

I snatch 'em at work when the penguin boxes come in :)

> As regards the thread topic.
> 
> I think the poster who mentioned that a logo and a mascot are not 
> necessarily the same.  That is a valid point.  I think it would be bad 
> if "Beastie" were to disappear. But there is an advantage to having a 
> more "business like" logo in addition to the mascot for those times 
> when such things as "Beastie" might be imprudent.

Yes, but business is why Microsoft Windows (*) sucks old rocks.
Microsoft is in business to make money, not better software.  I was
always under the impression that while the FreeBSD foundation was "in
business" to promote FreeBSD, the chief focus of the core team has
always been a better OS.  Keeping Beastie is a statement of sorts that
the FreeBSD team is NOT interested in business, just their work.

Once upon a time, a geek could get by with their idiosyncrasies
because they were obviously not interested in the power points that
the businessmen and politicians wanted.  They were only interested in
their gadgetry, software, and whatever cool new technology came along.
Now, one by one, everyone's worried about "business like" images,
logos, and whatnot.

You may be right, but I still strongly (but respectfully) disagree.

Lou
-- 
Louis LeBlanc  FreeBSD-at-keyslapper-DOT-net
Fully Funded Hobbyist,   KeySlapper Extrordinaire :)
Please send off-list email to: leblanc at keyslapper d.t net
Key fingerprint = C5E7 4762 F071 CE3B ED51  4FB8 AF85 A2FE 80C8 D9A2

The Law of the Letter:
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Chad Leigh -- Shire . Net LLC]

On Feb 9, 2005, at 3:50 PM, Louis LeBlanc wrote:
And in the past, I've only ever worn or
used logos if they were for the Red Sox, the Patriots (and even those
sparingly), or a free shirt.  Hey, free is free, right?
What, no Celtics?
I will admit to having bought lots of Apple shirts and a Celtics shirt. 
 The rest of my logos shirts are of the free sort I pick up at 
conferences and from vendors :-)

As regards the thread topic.
I think the poster who mentioned that a logo and a mascot are not 
necessarily the same.  That is a valid point.  I think it would be bad 
if "Beastie" were to disappear. But there is an advantage to having a 
more "business like" logo in addition to the mascot for those times 
when such things as "Beastie" might be imprudent.

Chad
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Andrew L. Gould]

On Wednesday 09 February 2005 07:09 pm, - wrote:
> http://www.petitiononline.com/fbsdmsc1/petition.html
>
> Julien Gabel wrote:
> >>>See the thread "The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public
> >>> competition for the new logo design. " in -advocacy - I've
> >>> already replied with my views on the subject, along the same
> >>> lines as your comments.
> >>
> >>I'm not subscribed to -advocacy can you provide me with an archive
> >>link to this thread in question? I wasn't able to find it based on
> >> the subject you provided.
> >
> >You can follow this post at:
> >  http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy/2005-February/

I have been watching the fallout regarding this issue on both the 
advocacy and questions email lists.  It is clear from the advocacy 
list, that the announcement was made prematurely and did not convey the 
intended message either clearly or completely.  It is clear from 
reading both lists that much of the anger is based upon false 
assumptions, misinformation and incomplete editing of the leaked 
document.

I (just a user) ask that the petition effort be delayed until the 
official announcement is made and the issues can be drawn out and 
discussed more clearly.

Humbly and respectfully,

Andrew Gould
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[-]

http://www.petitiononline.com/fbsdmsc1/petition.html
Julien Gabel wrote:
See the thread "The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition
for the new logo design. " in -advocacy - I've already replied with
my views on the subject, along the same lines as your comments.
 

 

I'm not subscribed to -advocacy can you provide me with an archive
link to this thread in question? I wasn't able to find it based on the
subject you provided.
   

You can follow this post at:
 http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy/2005-February/
 

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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Louis LeBlanc]

On 02/09/05 11:10 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] sat at the `puter and typed:
> On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 10:56:34PM +0100, Oliver Leitner wrote:
> > i think the threadstarter was asking a question, and he just put his own 
> > opinion to it, i think thats a good reason why it should come to this 
> > mailinglist, after all it fits the two major reasons, why there are 
> > mailinglists.
> > 
> > 1. ppls ask questions.
> > 2. ppls tell their opinion on things.
> 
> 3. This point is IMHO way too important to be hidden in mailing
> lists with less exposure than [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> I've first learned about this incredible thing from questions@, and I'm
> sure a lot more people did as well. This is IMO not a point to sneak by
> past community scrutiny, because it affects us all.

Good point.  It's validity may be questioned here, but not by me.

For my part, I'm totally against diminishing the significance of Beastie
in any way shape or form.  Putting my money where my mouth is, I just
came from the FreeBSD Mall, where (cheapskate that I am), I bought 3
shirts and 4 bumper stickers.  And in the past, I've only ever worn or
used logos if they were for the Red Sox, the Patriots (and even those
sparingly), or a free shirt.  Hey, free is free, right?

That said, I certainly won't be moving to another OS if Beastie should
disappear.  He's not the reason I fell in love with FreeBSD.  Of course,
I'll still dig up the Beastie images where I can and put them back where
they belong.  I fully intend to keep Beastie visible in all my FreeBSD
systems.

Of course (at the risk of starting a *real* holy war), I'm a recovered
Catholic (read: "raving athiest"), so maybe my opinions and support
won't carry much weight.

Lou
-- 
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Fully Funded Hobbyist,   KeySlapper Extrordinaire :)
Please send off-list email to: leblanc at keyslapper d.t net
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[cpghost]

On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 10:56:34PM +0100, Oliver Leitner wrote:
> i think the threadstarter was asking a question, and he just put his own 
> opinion to it, i think thats a good reason why it should come to this 
> mailinglist, after all it fits the two major reasons, why there are 
> mailinglists.
> 
> 1. ppls ask questions.
> 2. ppls tell their opinion on things.

3. This point is IMHO way too important to be hidden in mailing
lists with less exposure than [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I've first learned about this incredible thing from questions@, and I'm
sure a lot more people did as well. This is IMO not a point to sneak by
past community scrutiny, because it affects us all.

Regards,
-cpghost.

-- 
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Oliver Leitner]

On Wednesday 09 February 2005 22:56, Frank Laszlo wrote:
> Oliver Leitner wrote:
> >On Wednesday 09 February 2005 22:33, Mark Rowlands wrote:
> >>On Wednesday 09 February 2005 21:06, Timothy Luoma wrote:
> >>>On Feb 9, 2005, at 1:56 PM, Chad Morland wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:48:19 +, Mark Ovens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> wrote:
> >See the thread "The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition
> >for the new logo design. " in -advocacy - I've already replied
> >with
> >my views on the subject, along the same lines as your comments.
> 
> I'm not subscribed to -advocacy can you provide me with an archive
> link to this thread in question? I wasn't able to find it based on the
> subject you provided.
> >>>
> >>>Put "freebsd advocacy" into Google, click on the link for the list,
> >>>click on the link for the archive, and check out February's posts.
> >>>
> >>>There are a total of 4 posts listed, 3 of them with the Subject:
> >>>
> >>>   The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new
> >>>logo design. 
> >>>
> >>>How hard was that ?
> >>
> >>please take this thread elsewhere...anywhere
> >
> >why?
>
> This is a "Questions" list. And this is clearly not a question. Thus, it
> does not belong here, it belongs on -chat or -advocacy.

i think the threadstarter was asking a question, and he just put his own 
opinion to it, i think thats a good reason why it should come to this 
mailinglist, after all it fits the two major reasons, why there are 
mailinglists.

1. ppls ask questions.
2. ppls tell their opinion on things.

>
>
> __
> Frank Laszlo
> System Administrator
> The VonOstin Group
> Email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> WWW:http://www.vonostingroup.com
> Mobile: 248-863-7584

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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Len Zettel]

On Wednesday 09 February 2005 07:11 pm, Mark Ovens wrote:
> Louis LeBlanc wrote:
> > On 02/09/05 04:32 PM, Charles-André Landemaine sat at the `puter and 
typed:
> >> This will sign the death of FreeBSD.
> >>
> >> How could they believe such crap?! Who said beastie is evil?! This is
> >> totally non-sense, it's a logo, it's not the CD cover of a heavy-metal
> >> release...!
> >>
> >> I think the reasons are the same as NetBSD. Do extremist Republicans
> >> threaten BSD distros?
> >>
> >> The word "daemon" in greek means "server" (the person, not the
> >> hardware). This is neither good nor bad, if it has to be  either one,
> >> then it's good.
> >
> > Uh, not to be rude, but what the hell are you talking about?  I don't
> > remember anyone talking about changing the logo.
>
> http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/announce.txt Read it and weep.
>
Seems to me there could be two separate and not necessarily
related issues here.
1) Having a contest for a new logo.
2) Adopting the contest winner as the new logo.

The occurrence of (1) does not mandate the occurrence of (2).
  -LenZ-

> Mark
>
>
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Frank Laszlo]

Oliver Leitner wrote:
On Wednesday 09 February 2005 22:33, Mark Rowlands wrote:
 

On Wednesday 09 February 2005 21:06, Timothy Luoma wrote:
   

On Feb 9, 2005, at 1:56 PM, Chad Morland wrote:
 

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:48:19 +, Mark Ovens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
   

See the thread "The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition
for the new logo design. " in -advocacy - I've already replied
with
my views on the subject, along the same lines as your comments.
 

I'm not subscribed to -advocacy can you provide me with an archive
link to this thread in question? I wasn't able to find it based on the
subject you provided.
   

Put "freebsd advocacy" into Google, click on the link for the list,
click on the link for the archive, and check out February's posts.
There are a total of 4 posts listed, 3 of them with the Subject:
The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new
logo design. 
How hard was that ?
 

please take this thread elsewhere...anywhere
   

why?
 


This is a "Questions" list. And this is clearly not a question. Thus, it 
does not belong here, it belongs on -chat or -advocacy.

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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Oliver Leitner]

On Wednesday 09 February 2005 22:33, Mark Rowlands wrote:
> On Wednesday 09 February 2005 21:06, Timothy Luoma wrote:
> > On Feb 9, 2005, at 1:56 PM, Chad Morland wrote:
> > > On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:48:19 +, Mark Ovens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >> See the thread "The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition
> > >> for the new logo design. " in -advocacy - I've already replied
> > >> with
> > >> my views on the subject, along the same lines as your comments.
> > >
> > > I'm not subscribed to -advocacy can you provide me with an archive
> > > link to this thread in question? I wasn't able to find it based on the
> > > subject you provided.
> >
> > Put "freebsd advocacy" into Google, click on the link for the list,
> > click on the link for the archive, and check out February's posts.
> >
> > There are a total of 4 posts listed, 3 of them with the Subject:
> >
> > The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new
> > logo design. 
> >
> > How hard was that ?
>
> please take this thread elsewhere...anywhere

why?
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Mark Rowlands]

On Wednesday 09 February 2005 21:06, Timothy Luoma wrote:
> On Feb 9, 2005, at 1:56 PM, Chad Morland wrote:
> > On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:48:19 +, Mark Ovens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > wrote:
> >> See the thread "The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition
> >> for the new logo design. " in -advocacy - I've already replied
> >> with
> >> my views on the subject, along the same lines as your comments.
> >
> > I'm not subscribed to -advocacy can you provide me with an archive
> > link to this thread in question? I wasn't able to find it based on the
> > subject you provided.
>
> Put "freebsd advocacy" into Google, click on the link for the list,
> click on the link for the archive, and check out February's posts.
>
> There are a total of 4 posts listed, 3 of them with the Subject:
>
>   The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new
> logo design. 
>
> How hard was that ?
>
please take this thread elsewhere...anywhere
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Albert Shih]

 Le 09/02/2005 à 16:32:42-0200, Charles-André Landemaine a écrit
> This will sign the death of FreeBSD.
> 
> How could they believe such crap?! Who said beastie is evil?! This is
> totally non-sense, it's a logo, it's not the CD cover of a heavy-metal
> release...!
> 
> I think the reasons are the same as NetBSD. Do extremist Republicans
> threaten BSD distros?
> 
> The word "daemon" in greek means "server" (the person, not the
> hardware). This is neither good nor bad, if it has to be  either one,
> then it's good.
> 
> Oh please, wake me up, it's a nightmare!!!

I'm totally agree. I very don't understand why many people need to change
something like a logo.

My 1/10 cents

--
Albert SHIH
Universite de Paris 7 (Denis DIDEROT)
U.F.R. de Mathematiques.
Heure local/Local time:
Wed Feb 9 22:28:23 CET 2005
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[cpghost]

On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 11:28:37AM -0800, sp0ng3b0b wrote:
> Change is good. Time to try something different. I think some folks 
> should relax and not get too upset. There are worse things going on in 
> the world...

Nope. Beastie is a way of life. I'd be quite upset if it were dropped
for whatever reason. It is so intimately tied to FreeBSD that it would
be a PR disaster if it were to be changed. NetBSD never had a real
logo, and it's their choice (though IMHO not a very good one; even a
toaster would have been better!), but changing FreeBSD's most widely
recognized brand would be just plain stupid. Imagine Linux dropping Tux
for some meanlingless, lifeless logo?

Hands off from our beloved Beastie!

> ...my 2 cents...

Regards,
-cpghost.

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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Timothy Luoma]

On Feb 9, 2005, at 1:56 PM, Chad Morland wrote:
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:48:19 +, Mark Ovens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
See the thread "The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition
for the new logo design. " in -advocacy - I've already replied 
with
my views on the subject, along the same lines as your comments.
I'm not subscribed to -advocacy can you provide me with an archive
link to this thread in question? I wasn't able to find it based on the
subject you provided.
Put "freebsd advocacy" into Google, click on the link for the list, 
click on the link for the archive, and check out February's posts.

There are a total of 4 posts listed, 3 of them with the Subject:
	
	The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new 
logo design. 

How hard was that ?
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Guillermo Garcia-Rojas]

I think we all are happy with beastie, there is no reason to change
it, if some idiots think it's evil, that's their problem.

I hope no one sends a new logo for the contest, and if what FreeBSD
Project wants is a new "FreeBSD" type of font, or style, then do it,
but don't blow beastie away.

It would be better to give beastie a BSD license :)

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 20:29:18 +0100, Oliver Leitner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "if we dont take care of the little things around us, what right do we have
> to be upset on the bigger ones?"
> 
> On Wednesday 09 February 2005 20:28, sp0ng3b0b wrote:
> > Charles-André Landemaine wrote:
> > > This will sign the death of FreeBSD.
> > > Oh please, wake me up, it's a nightmare!!!
> >
> > Come on now, is changing the logo ALL that BAD? Companies and
> > organizations do it all the time. Who cares? It's not like a new logo
> > will introduce new bugs and vulnerabilities in your OS!
> >
> > Change is good. Time to try something different. I think some folks
> > should relax and not get too upset. There are worse things going on in
> > the world...
> >
> > ...my 2 cents...
> > ___
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Oliver Leitner]

"if we dont take care of the little things around us, what right do we have 
to be upset on the bigger ones?"

On Wednesday 09 February 2005 20:28, sp0ng3b0b wrote:
> Charles-André Landemaine wrote:
> > This will sign the death of FreeBSD.
> > Oh please, wake me up, it's a nightmare!!!
>
> Come on now, is changing the logo ALL that BAD? Companies and
> organizations do it all the time. Who cares? It's not like a new logo
> will introduce new bugs and vulnerabilities in your OS!
>
> Change is good. Time to try something different. I think some folks
> should relax and not get too upset. There are worse things going on in
> the world...
>
> ...my 2 cents...
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Andrew L. Gould]

On Wednesday 09 February 2005 12:58 pm, Julien Gabel wrote:
> >> See the thread "The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public
> >> competition for the new logo design. " in -advocacy - I've
> >> already replied with my views on the subject, along the same lines
> >> as your comments.
> >
> > I'm not subscribed to -advocacy can you provide me with an archive
> > link to this thread in question? I wasn't able to find it based on
> > the subject you provided.
>
> You can follow this post at:
>   http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy/2005-February/

I like the daemon, and would like it to remain FreeBSD's mascot.  
However, I don't see a problem with separating the logo from the 
mascot.  

A decent example of this is Slackware's logo, which is separate from 
their pipe smoking penguin.  Check out both the "Serious Slackware" and 
"Got Slack" t-shirts at the link below.  Each t-shirt represents 
Slackware in a different light.  Both are still correct; but one is 
certainly more "business friendly".

http://store.slackware.com/cgi-bin/store/search?id=sPyZ7iNL:mv_pc=229

Having a professional looking logo would make advocacy easier.  People 
do have their prejudices; and if people misunderstand the daemon, then 
it is not representing FreeBSD effectively.  We should be able to have 
both without feeling like we "sold out".

I'll stop here and sign up for the advocacy mailing list.

Andrew Gould
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