[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #19589] New tech upkeep style
Follow-up Comment #13, bug #19589 (project freeciv): Testing S2_5 (rev 24279) with Tech upkeep = Cities, it sometimes appear the error message: Trying to put -29 into 16 bits being -29 (in this example) the bulbs produced per turn after taking the tech upkeep into account. The game continues normally, but I'm not sure if this error may affect the ai. ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?19589 ___ Mensaje enviado vía/por Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #19589] New tech upkeep style
Follow-up Comment #14, bug #19589 (project freeciv): The new finding now as bug #21549 ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?19589 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #19589] New tech upkeep style
Follow-up Comment #10, bug #19589 (project freeciv): I have tested the patch over S2_5 and it seems to work as expected. I noticed only one minor problem: when a new city is built or destroyed, the tech upkeep value showed in the research window is not updated until the end of turn. Thank you very much for this patch, I hope it can be include in v2.5. I'll keep testing the best way to add this new upkeep style to cv2civ3 ruleset. ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?19589 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #19589] New tech upkeep style
Update of bug #19589 (project freeciv): Status: Ready For Test = Fixed Assigned to:None = cazfi Open/Closed:Open = Closed ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?19589 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #19589] New tech upkeep style
Follow-up Comment #9, bug #19589 (project freeciv): While upkeep was multiplied by (1 + number of cities) to give some upkeep even for those with no cities, free upkeep was given from cities only, meaning extra upkeep to pay for for the cities, a lot when number of cities is low ( extra upkeep / number of cities high ). Attached version adds that same + 1 to free upkeep multiplier (actually: makes whole multiplier to apply to (upkeep - free)) (file #19783, file #19784) ___ Additional Item Attachment: File name: TechUpkeepPerCity-2.patch Size:15 KB File name: TechUpkeepPerCity-S2_5-2.patch Size:14 KB ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?19589 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #19589] New tech upkeep style
Follow-up Comment #5, bug #19589 (project freeciv): I do not see it unrealistic if you think of tech upkeep as the bulbs needed to keep the same technology level in every of your cities. When you discover a primitive tribe, you automatically are allowed to build your best units and buildings in that new primitive city, even when this city does not produce any bulb nor has any library/university to keep this knowledge. As I see it, the more cities in your empire, the harder should be to keep the same knowledge in all of them. With my suggested tech style, if the tech upkeep is 5, it means that you waste an average of 5 bulbs per city. If you conquer a primitive city that produces 2 bulbs, then the rest of cities must use part of their science resources (3 bulbs) to allow this new city to take advantage of all the techs of your civilization. I admit the main reason is the balance (I actully think the current tech upkeep system is useless as a game rule), but I also think that my suggestion would make the management of science resources a bit more realistic. ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?19589 ___ Mensaje enviado vía/por Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #19589] New tech upkeep style
Follow-up Comment #6, bug #19589 (project freeciv): ...The bulb production of a city would be used first to tech the known technologies to their citizens (tech upkeep), and only the surplus will be used to learn new technologies based on those techs (research). In the current system, every city, no matter how primitive, can start contributing to advanced projects like nuclear power. I see it more realistic that a city without libraries/universities (or low trade) may be useless to create new knowledge when the civilization is advanced (high tech upkeep). About the loss of a technology. As I see it, if your education system (scientists, libraries, universities... ) is not good enough to educate technicians/scientist that knows how to use this technology, then you can not use it, even if the information is not totally lost. I think this is what use to happen in real history. ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?19589 ___ Mensaje enviado vía/por Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #19589] New tech upkeep style
Follow-up Comment #4, bug #19589 (project freeciv): I see gmae balance reasons for this, but it still seem blatantly wrong (realism is not very high priority, but mainly we're allowed to simplify reality, not to add weird kludge rules). Why would my capitol's University library lose the information they have simply because explorer happens to discover primitive tribe on a remote island? Unlike concrete buildings, you don't need *more* information when your nation grows (unless you have a policy that there is just one copy of every document, and those documents are evenly distributed to your nation so that if the remote tribe loses their records, library of congress cannot help) ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?19589 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #19589] New tech upkeep style
Follow-up Comment #3, bug #19589 (project freeciv): This new tech upkeep style would be very useful for the ruleset civ2civ3 that will be included with v2.5. Cazfi, if you are around, do you think it would be possible to include this new style in future versions, please? ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?19589 ___ Mensaje enviado vía/por Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #19589] New tech upkeep style
Update of bug #19589 (project freeciv): Category:rulesets = general Status:None = In Progress Planned Release: = 2.5.0, 2.6.0 ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?19589 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #19589] New tech upkeep style
Follow-up Comment #2, bug #19589 (project freeciv): I attach a patch to add this feature. Old formula was tech_upkeep = Cost of all Techs researched / tech_upkeep_divider - Tech_Upkeep_Free My suggested formula is: tech_upkeep = Cost of all Techs researched / tech_upkeep_divider * ( 1 + number_of_cities / Tech_Upkeep_Free) Here, the effect Tech_Upkeep_Free delimits the increment in the number of cities that causes an increment in the upkeep cost. If Tech_Upkeep_Free = 1, then the upkeep cost is multiplied by the number of cities (divided by Tech_Upkeep_Free). If Tech_Upkeep_Free = 0, then we force the same behavior than the old formula. If some coder is interested to introduce this change, we are going to need to update the description of the effect Tech_Upkeep_Free, and the hardest part: to modify every file game.ruleset to include the new formula for tech_upkeep_style. Also to adapt the rulesets currently using it: experimental and civ2civ3 (I can do that). (file #16394) ___ Additional Item Attachment: File name: NewTechUpkeep.diff Size:1 KB ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?19589 ___ Mensaje enviado vía/por Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #19589] New tech upkeep style
Follow-up Comment #1, bug #19589 (project freeciv): I'm trying to implement this idea, it simply needs one extra line at the end of tech_upkeep_calc() to multiply by number of cities owned by the player. Could some coder please tell where can I get this value? tech_bulb_sum *= get_player_bonus(pplayer, EFT_TECH_COST_FACTOR); tech_bulb_sum *= (double)game.info.sciencebox / 100.0; tech_bulb_sum /= game.info.tech_upkeep_divider; tech_bulb_sum -= get_player_bonus(pplayer, EFT_TECH_UPKEEP_FREE); /*tech_bulb_sum *= ¿¿number of cities owned by player??*/ Syntron, if you are around, please tell what do you think? ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?19589 ___ Mensaje enviado vía/por Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #19589] New tech upkeep style
URL: http://gna.org/bugs/?19589 Summary: New tech upkeep style Project: Freeciv Submitted by: bardo Submitted on: mié 28 mar 2012 06:18:07 GMT Category: rulesets Severity: 1 - Wish Priority: 5 - Normal Status: None Assigned to: None Originator Email: Open/Closed: Open Release: Discussion Lock: Any Operating System: None Planned Release: ___ Details: After some time testing this optional rule, I have not found any way to use it in a satisfactory way. However, I think it could become a very useful rule if the total tech upkeep were multiplied by the number of cities of the player. The current tech upkeep is a fixed value. For example, you can set it so the player pays 100 science bulb per turn when he has researched all the available technologies. The problem with such fixed values is that it is negligible for advanced players that use to produce thousands of bulbs at that time, while the same value could break the science production of weaker players, mainly the AI in single player games. I suggest to add a new tech_upkeep_style where the total upkeep (currently calculated as: Cost of technology / tech_upkeep_divider + tech_upkeep_free) is multiplied at the end by the number of cities of the player. This way, the tech upkeep would affect players in the same scale than the building upkeep. For example, if an advanced civilization (tech upkeep = 10 per city) conquers a barbarian city (no buildings, and low science production = 5), then the new city will need no building upkeep, but the tech upkeep makes this city worthless until you have built some science improvements and the science production of the city can be greater than the tech upkeep of your civilization. Such rule would allow: 1- If a player conquers a lot of cities without building science improvements, these new cities would cost more science than they produce, and the total tech upkeep could cause a technological collapse (lost of some techs until the global upkeep is fit again). This collapse can be easely avoided by waiting to develop the new cities before you conquer new ones. The tech upkeep would represent the max rate at which you can romanize other cultures. 2- The effect would not be dependant on the size of the map or the number of players, because it is not a fixed upkeep, but a value per city. 3- The effect would affect more to the most advanced players with the most cities, while weaker players with few cities are hardly affected. 4- This rule could be used to keep players from selling the science buildings (libraries, etc) when they are close to finish the tech tree, because those buildings would be needed to upkeep the current technology, specially if you plan to conquer many poor cities in a short time. If tech upkeep does not depend on number of cites, an advanced civilization can easely pay it with 10% of the trade, even without libraries/universities, while weaker civilization could not pay it. Thanks for reading :) ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?19589 ___ Mensaje enviado vía/por Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
