Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 2:19 PM, Abe Mishler  wrote:
>
> I'm interested in learning how games like DOOM (requires 3MB available)
> were able to work. I know I know, read the source code.

AFAIK, Doom was originally compiled with Watcom using a DOS extender
(DOS4G Professional). So it's 386 pmode code.

All the open source ports (since late 1997?) started with the
so-called Linux sources (thus no DOS soundcard support), so pretty
much all of the newer DOS-based ports used DJGPP v2 (DPMI) and Allegro
(sound, gfx). This was before OpenWatcom was officially released
(2003).

See here:ftp://ftp.idsoftware.com/idstuff/source/doomsrc.txt

> I'm getting there. I'm also reading "MS-DOS Beyond 640K" by James Forney.
> Interesting to note that Id says not to use memory managers or disk caching
> programs with Doom.

Even back in the DOS days, I don't think anyone was naive enough to
expect everyone to (always) run without any memory managers. DOS
extenders usually went out of their way to support multiple
environments (raw, EMS/VCPI, XMS, DPMI). Certainly running under
Windows wasn't always forbidden, and that won't let you disable
everything.

Yes, some DOS games needed a fairly clean setup, but most of them (by
design) could handle themselves gracefully in multiple environments.
E.g. Quake (DJGPP-based) was explicitly debugged and tested so that it
could run under Win95 with (I think?) only 16 MB of RAM.

> Doom and other games must do their own memory management which makes sense
> for performance.

Doom may allocate everything up front and privately manage it all
itself, but that's all. It's not overriding the OS (or APIs).

And yes, that was probably faster for 1993, back when the best you had
was a fast 386 or slow 486. Although technically the Intel Pentium
(586) first came out in 1993, but it wasn't common. Even when Quake
came out in 1996 (and was heavily optimized for Intel's pipelined 587
FPU), the Pentium wasn't universal.

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Abe Mishler]

Great tip!!! I'll have to try that!

> On Jul 2, 2016, at 6:30 PM, Ulrich Hansen  wrote:
> 
> Hi Abe,
> 
>> Am 01.07.2016 um 14:59 schrieb Abe Mishler :
>> 
>> except linux can 
>> mount raw images for native file sharing 
> 
> Today I found out: If I choose „VHD“ as type for the virtual harddisk in 
> VirtualBox, I am able to mount the VirtualBox image in Windows too. 
> 
> See: https://www.lazybrowndog.net/freedos/files/vhd.png
> 
> Now I just open „Computer Management“ in Windows, right-click on "Disk 
> Management" and choose "Attach VHD“.
> See this description here: 
> http://www.online-tech-tips.com/computer-tips/create-mount-vhd-windows/
> 
> (You can only attach local VHDs, not those on a network share.)
> 
> And for the record: For OS X there is a free program by Paragon, which does 
> the same:
> 
> https://www.paragon-software.com/home/vd-mounter-mac-free/
> 
> So another thing VirtualBox can do as good as qemu.
> 
> Ulrich
> 
> 
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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Ulrich Hansen]

Hi Abe,

> Am 01.07.2016 um 14:59 schrieb Abe Mishler :
> 
> except linux can 
> mount raw images for native file sharing 

Today I found out: If I choose „VHD“ as type for the virtual harddisk in 
VirtualBox, I am able to mount the VirtualBox image in Windows too. 

See: https://www.lazybrowndog.net/freedos/files/vhd.png 


Now I just open „Computer Management“ in Windows, right-click on "Disk 
Management" and choose "Attach VHD“.
See this description here: 
http://www.online-tech-tips.com/computer-tips/create-mount-vhd-windows/ 


(You can only attach local VHDs, not those on a network share.)

And for the record: For OS X there is a free program by Paragon, which does the 
same:

https://www.paragon-software.com/home/vd-mounter-mac-free/ 


So another thing VirtualBox can do as good as qemu.

Ulrich


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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Abe Mishler]

> On Jul 1, 2016, at 4:17 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
>> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 10:08 AM, Eric Auer  wrote:
>> 
>> I think that even 597 kB of low DOS memory is plenty for old DOS programs.
> 
> "597 kb should be enough for anyone." -- Eric Auer, 2016:-)
> 
> In Abe's recent screenshot, he shows that he's now getting (thanks to
> Ulrich) "628 kb" free. This is actually "643,488" bytes! That's
> plenty! (It's easy to forget that "kb" is not equal to 1000.)
> 
> Seriously, I can't speak for all apps, but it's rare to need (much
> more, if any) greater than 500 kb. Needing 600 kb is almost unheard of
> (right??). At least, I only vaguely remember one demo (submerge??)
> that needed over 600,000 bytes free. And even that was probably badly
> designed. Some games require more than 500 kb, but that too is of
> questionable design. Most well-behaved apps (yeah, I know that's not
> saying much) don't really need that much.
> 
> My own VBox setup "only" gets 596 kb (610,544) free. That's HimemX
> only (and FreeCOM XMS_Swap, of course; and yes, packet driver can vary
> a lot in size, too). I can't remember exactly, but my native FreeDOS
> install is also similar, and I see no huge problems. Though it's
> impossible to test everything, of course.
> 
> Can anyone provide real-world usage examples of needing 600,000 bytes
> or more free?? (Besides obvious things like user data or combining
> several TSRs.) Do any popular apps from yesteryear need that much?
> 
I don't have any real-world data for apps, but  I'm interested in learning how 
games like DOOM (requires 3MB available) were able to work. I know I know, read 
the source code. I'm getting there. I'm also reading "MS-DOS Beyond 640K" by 
James Forney. Interesting to note that Id says not to use memory managers or 
disk caching programs with Doom. Doom and other games must do their own memory 
management which makes sense for performance.

http://www.classicdoom.com/doominfo.htm

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 10:08 AM, Eric Auer  wrote:
>
> I think that even 597 kB of low DOS memory is plenty for old DOS programs.

"597 kb should be enough for anyone." -- Eric Auer, 2016:-)

In Abe's recent screenshot, he shows that he's now getting (thanks to
Ulrich) "628 kb" free. This is actually "643,488" bytes! That's
plenty! (It's easy to forget that "kb" is not equal to 1000.)

Seriously, I can't speak for all apps, but it's rare to need (much
more, if any) greater than 500 kb. Needing 600 kb is almost unheard of
(right??). At least, I only vaguely remember one demo (submerge??)
that needed over 600,000 bytes free. And even that was probably badly
designed. Some games require more than 500 kb, but that too is of
questionable design. Most well-behaved apps (yeah, I know that's not
saying much) don't really need that much.

My own VBox setup "only" gets 596 kb (610,544) free. That's HimemX
only (and FreeCOM XMS_Swap, of course; and yes, packet driver can vary
a lot in size, too). I can't remember exactly, but my native FreeDOS
install is also similar, and I see no huge problems. Though it's
impossible to test everything, of course.

Can anyone provide real-world usage examples of needing 600,000 bytes
or more free?? (Besides obvious things like user data or combining
several TSRs.) Do any popular apps from yesteryear need that much?

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Ulrich Hansen]

> Am 01.07.2016 um 14:59 schrieb Abe Mishler :
> 
>> 
>> 1?DEVICE=C:\FDOS\BIN\JEMMEX.EXE NOEMS X=TEST I=B000-B7FF I=C800-EFFF
>> NOVME NOINVLPG
>> 
> That works like a charm! Do those regions work for you?

Yes. I tested it on a FreeDOS 1.1 guest on my Mac. 

And, as I don’t have Windows machine anymore, I started a Windows 10 VirtualBox 
guest, and inside of it I used VirtualBox for Windows and tested it there with 
a FreeDOS 1.1 guest. Normally JEMMEX crashes there, but not this time.

> Could you provide an explanation regarding those regions?

Actually they discussed it in the VirtualBox forum:

https://forums.virtualbox.org/viewtopic.php?f=4=77078=4702e57e2da69b00248e9a82eeffbe98
 


Seems some people at Oracle are still interested in DOS.

> I will now revisit my decision to use QEMU on linux... except linux can 
> mount raw images for native file sharing without having to FTP into 
> FreeDOS (which I got working).

Yes, this is nice. On OS X you can just double-click the image to mount it.

Just a quick review about qemu and networking: 

Networking with qemu is difficult. Per default it uses NAT, but only for TCP. 
So I can’t ping the outside world. WGET works. I managed to transfer files with 
FileZilla to mTCP ftpsrv. (Which is a miracle as all other clients won’t even 
do a directory listing.)

For bridged networking I’d have to install a TUN/TAP software on the host. 
Complicated.

I start qemu with:

qemu-system-i386 -hda freedos.img -boot c -m 32 -netdev 
user,id=usernet,net=192.168.3.0/24,dhcpstart=192.168.3.101 -device 
pcnet,netdev=usernet -redir tcp:2121::21

With „-device pcnet“ qemu supports the AMD PCFastIII (pcnet) network card, so 
the packet driver in FreeDOS 1.1 (PCNTPK) can be used. 

> Thanks a lot for re-opening my can of worms!!! :-p

Brr. :-)

Good luck!!

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Abe Mishler]

Hi Ulrich!

On 7/1/2016 3:35 AM, Ulrich Hansen wrote:
>
>> Am 01.07.2016 um 01:51 schrieb Abe Mishler > >:
>>
>>  I have been learning a lot about JEMMEX as compared to the other
>> drivers lately.
>
> Hi Abe,
>
> If you don’t mind, it would be great if you could try one last thing
> with VirtualBox and JEMMEX:
>
> Please try to start JEMMEX with this line in FDCONFIG.SYS:
>
> 1?DEVICE=C:\FDOS\BIN\JEMMEX.EXE NOEMS X=TEST I=B000-B7FF I=C800-EFFF
> NOVME NOINVLPG
>
That works like a charm! Do those regions work for you?

Could you provide an explanation regarding those regions?

I will now revisit my decision to use QEMU on linux... except linux can 
mount raw images for native file sharing without having to FTP into 
FreeDOS (which I got working).

Thanks a lot for re-opening my can of worms!!! :-p

Seriously though, after all of my learning, I think I had decided 
yesterday to walk away from JEMMEX ... (circling back around) in which 
case VirtualBox works just fine... decisions, decisions... grrr.

http://tinypic.com/r/30hq7gi/9

Extended (XMS), Total=32,704K, Used=6,005K, Free=26,699K
Total Expanded (EMS) = 8,576K
Free Expanded (EMS) = 8,192K
Largest executable program size = 628K
Largest free upper memory block = 137K

Thanks!

> Important are both includes I=B000-B7FF I=C800-EFFF.
> Does this change anything for you? Does it still crash?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Ulrich Hansen]

> Am 01.07.2016 um 01:51 schrieb Abe Mishler :
> 
>  I have been learning a lot about JEMMEX as compared to the other drivers 
> lately. 

Hi Abe,

If you don’t mind, it would be great if you could try one last thing with 
VirtualBox and JEMMEX:

Please try to start JEMMEX with this line in FDCONFIG.SYS:

1?DEVICE=C:\FDOS\BIN\JEMMEX.EXE NOEMS X=TEST I=B000-B7FF I=C800-EFFF NOVME 
NOINVLPG

Important are both includes I=B000-B7FF I=C800-EFFF. 
Does this change anything for you? Does it still crash?

Thanks!


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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Rugxulo]

Hi again,

On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 12:34 AM, Rugxulo  wrote:
>
> But I agree, in theory, that JEMMEX shouldn't be preferred or
> suggested without a good reason. But that's not my decision for FD 1.2
> (and I forget offhand what Jerome uses, I haven't downloaded any
> recent prereleases, too preoccupied with other bagatela).

Just so Jerome doesn't tear me a new one (not really, he's nice), I
quickly downloaded FDI-FLOPPY.zip (dated June 27):

It simply loads HimemX (XMSv3, 386+) and nothing else.

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Abe Mishler  wrote:
>
>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 6:19 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
>>
>> If JEMMEX is your only problem, then you have no problems.
>
> This idea has appeared before in this thread and it is a relief to hear it 
> echoed.
> Perhaps a disclaimer like this is warranted in the Wiki install guide for new 
> users
> like myself. (I had very limited exposure to DOS when it was mainstream so 
> the idea
> of so many different memory modes has been overwhelming to learn suddenly.)

I didn't have a PC back then, but AFAIK 

The IBM PC used an 8088 in 1981. The max memory supported was 640 kb
(low / conventional), but even that was usually overly idealistic. I
think?? you typically got 400 kb free back in those days (if you could
even afford the full 640 kb at all). The original IBM PC didn't even
have a hard drive, and it shipped with like two 160 kb floppy drives.
I think 64 kb of RAM was the initial amount (similar to CP/M, I
suppose).

Only later did 500 kb RAM free become the norm and even required, e.g.
MS-DOS 5 bragged about freeing up "45 kb at least".

Of course, originally it was optional things like (hardware) EMS that
(partially) brought more RAM. That was presumably more common with
8086-ish machines than newer ones. With the 286, although it took a
while to standardize, the preferred approach was either "raw", XMSv2,
or DPMI (which really sat atop one of the others). Even DPMI didn't
appear until 1989/1990 with Windows 3.0.

The 286 was, what, 1982? Obviously the 386 was (first) introduced in
1986 by Intel. But the IBM PC didn't get the 286 until (I don't even
know) XT? Nope, Wikipedia says "XT 286" was 1986. Nope, Wikipedia also
says "The 80286 was employed for the IBM PC/AT, introduced in 1984".
But it took a *long* time for megabytes of RAM to become common. It
was just too expensive. (My 1994-era 486 Sx/25 only had 4 MB.)

Long story short, the differing memory APIs were due to different
hardware. So hardware "expanded" (EMS) needed one API while the 286
(max 16 MB RAM)'s "extended" (XMS) memory needed another one. And
Windows 3.0 (1990) invented yet another one (DPMI) that was "better"
than VCPI (and more widely supported, although most DPMI servers ended
up being 386+ anyways).

> If a consensus can be reached, I would humbly submit the idea of swapping 
> options 1 and 2 in the next release to give less emphasis to JEMMEX.

Even Blackthorne (game, which is now freeware BTW) required EMS, and
that was what, 1990s?? (Wikipedia says 1994.) So we can't totally say
that nobody should or can use EMS (e.g. EMM386). But yeah, I agree,
JEMMEX as default isn't really all it's cracked up to be (due to
various rare quirks, among other reasons).

> As a new user, I naively thought that JEMMEX was the best/preferred option 
> based on its ranking which may be intended.

In theory, if everything was perfectly bug-free, then sure, having
both XMS and software-emulated EMS (via V86 mode) + VCPI and using
UMBs (leading to more conventional memory free) is perfectly ideal.
(DPMI is usually loaded on demand via separate TSR.)

Obviously, in hindsight, you don't really need a billion APIs for the
same family of hardware. But that's the point, FreeDOS tries to
support 8086, 286, and 386 memory schemes (but no AMD64, obviously).

> But under the example of VBox, it doesn't hold up. I think I have learned now 
> that even though JEMMEX claims
> to do the same thing as option 2 in less memory by combining driver logic, 
> option 2 really works better even if
> there is a slightly larger overhead.

The more differing environments, the more testing you have to do to
support them all. It can add up, leaving obscure bugs.

> Option 2 certainly gives me more expanded memory (EMS).

Not sure why, offhand.

> At least this seems to be the case in VBox. However, JEMMEX behaves just fine 
> running under QEMU.
> So go figure. Perhaps the Wiki should push people towards QEMU on Linux 
> rather than VBox on Windows.

No, because most people don't need JEMMEX and/or EMS, and VBox
(sometimes) has other advantages. It's not worth giving up the whole
environment due to one or two accidental incompatibilities.

But I agree, in theory, that JEMMEX shouldn't be preferred or
suggested without a good reason. But that's not my decision for FD 1.2
(and I forget offhand what Jerome uses, I haven't downloaded any
recent prereleases, too preoccupied with other bagatela).

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Abe Mishler]

Hi,

> On Jun 30, 2016, at 6:19 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
>> On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 6:17 AM, Abe Mishler  wrote:
>> 
>>> On 6/29/2016 1:03 PM, Rugxulo wrote:
>> 
>> On the page that you sent regarding QEMU Binaries for Windows, it says:
>> "QEMU for Windows is experimental software and might contain even
>> serious bugs, so use the binaries at your own risk."
> 
> It's just a standard disclaimer, don't read too much into it. It works
> fine for me (FreeDOS). While I haven't exhaustively tested gigabytes
> of software, everything I tried seems to work fairly well, no huge
> obvious deficiencies. So don't worry.
> 
> The only real problem would be if it had major bugs and they refused
> to hear bug reports or even consider fixing them. AFAIK, that's not
> true. But indeed, I do think they prefer Linux more.
> 
> Nevertheless, several other OSes bundle Windows binaries of QEMU with
> some of their releases (e.g. ReactOS, AROS), so it must also work well
> for them too. So don't overreact, it works! But no software is 100%
> perfect, hence some people feel the need to explicitly disclaim legal
> liability, etc.
> 
>> Since QEMU is more mature on linux right now, I installed Xubuntu 16.04
>> LTS inside VirtualBox (5.0.24 now) and then QEMU inside of that.
> 
> I don't think it's a billion times more mature there. QEMU is a very
> complicated suite of software, for many many different architectures.
> Certainly it's almost strange / funny / pointless to install QEMU
> inside another OS inside VBox!
Yes, the levels of virtualization were getting ridiculous! Funny how it sped 
things up on a Win8.1 host though!!! I guess the farther away from Windows you 
get... well you fill in the rest. Ha!
> 
> VBox works well too. If you have problems with JEMMEX, then don't run
> that. Again, you really don't need it at all. Don't kid yourself, VBox
> is well-tested (overall), just not as much for DOS. So FreeDOS still
> (mostly) works fine there.
Great to hear! I have been learning a lot about JEMMEX as compared to the other 
drivers lately. You guys have been a terrific help!

> 
>> FreeDOS is much peppier inside of this configuration. I will probably get
>> another HD for a native Xubuntu install and skip the VBox on Win 8.1
>> layer altogether.
> 
> Setup a bootable USB jump drive instead, it's probably cheaper and
> easier. Okay, so technically I don't know of all the ways to make one
> (DistroWatch Weekly mentioned a few ways several months ago), but IIRC
> the latest Ubuntu actually recommends RUFUS (which is also well-known
> for supporting FreeDOS)!
> 
> A while back I had setup a Ubuntu 14.04 jump drive (with persistence),
> but it's fairly slow, so that may be a concern for you. But I don't
> think it has to be that way, I just don't have the time or energy to
> try billions of configurations.
I have decided (I think!) to involve the use of another HD (SSD) to get as much 
speed as possible.

> 
> antiX 13 was very good and lightning fast, and 16 was just released,
> so maybe you should try that instead, it's based upon Debian.
I'll have to look into that. Thanks!

> 
>> Side note: Since VBox was updated to 5.0.24 during this thread I decided
>> to try a new installation of FreeDOS with it but had the same problem.
> 
> If JEMMEX is your only problem, then you have no problems.
This idea has appeared before in this thread and it is a relief to hear it 
echoed. Perhaps a disclaimer like this is warranted in the Wiki install guide 
for new users like myself. (I had very limited exposure to DOS when it was 
mainstream so the idea of so many different memory modes has been overwhelming 
to learn suddenly.)

If a consensus can be reached, I would humbly submit the idea of swapping 
options 1 and 2 in the next release to give less emphasis to JEMMEX. As a new 
user, I naively thought that JEMMEX was the best/preferred option based on its 
ranking which may be intended. But under the example of VBox, it doesn't hold 
up. I think I have learned now that even though JEMMEX claims to do the same 
thing as option 2 in less memory by combining driver logic, option 2 really 
works better even if there is a slightly larger overhead. Option 2 certainly 
gives me more expanded memory (EMS). At least this seems to be the case in 
VBox. However, JEMMEX behaves just fine running under QEMU. So go figure. 
Perhaps the Wiki should push people towards QEMU on Linux rather than VBox on 
Windows.

Please correct me if I'm wrong or have missed something important.

Ok, back to you guys :)

> 
>>> But nothing beats running natively (on real hardware).
>> You're right about that. As Ulrich mentioned earlier, he uses screencast
>> software to capture what he's doing. I'm interested in doing the same so
>> I think FreeDOS in QEMU on linux is the way to go (for me, at this time).
> 
> Who knows, eventually there might be an official Flatpak (or Snappy?)
> package that works across all the major 

Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 6:17 AM, Abe Mishler  wrote:
>
>> On 6/29/2016 1:03 PM, Rugxulo wrote:
>
> On the page that you sent regarding QEMU Binaries for Windows, it says:
> "QEMU for Windows is experimental software and might contain even
> serious bugs, so use the binaries at your own risk."

It's just a standard disclaimer, don't read too much into it. It works
fine for me (FreeDOS). While I haven't exhaustively tested gigabytes
of software, everything I tried seems to work fairly well, no huge
obvious deficiencies. So don't worry.

The only real problem would be if it had major bugs and they refused
to hear bug reports or even consider fixing them. AFAIK, that's not
true. But indeed, I do think they prefer Linux more.

Nevertheless, several other OSes bundle Windows binaries of QEMU with
some of their releases (e.g. ReactOS, AROS), so it must also work well
for them too. So don't overreact, it works! But no software is 100%
perfect, hence some people feel the need to explicitly disclaim legal
liability, etc.

> Since QEMU is more mature on linux right now, I installed Xubuntu 16.04
> LTS inside VirtualBox (5.0.24 now) and then QEMU inside of that.

I don't think it's a billion times more mature there. QEMU is a very
complicated suite of software, for many many different architectures.
Certainly it's almost strange / funny / pointless to install QEMU
inside another OS inside VBox!

VBox works well too. If you have problems with JEMMEX, then don't run
that. Again, you really don't need it at all. Don't kid yourself, VBox
is well-tested (overall), just not as much for DOS. So FreeDOS still
(mostly) works fine there.

> FreeDOS is much peppier inside of this configuration. I will probably get
> another HD for a native Xubuntu install and skip the VBox on Win 8.1
> layer altogether.

Setup a bootable USB jump drive instead, it's probably cheaper and
easier. Okay, so technically I don't know of all the ways to make one
(DistroWatch Weekly mentioned a few ways several months ago), but IIRC
the latest Ubuntu actually recommends RUFUS (which is also well-known
for supporting FreeDOS)!

A while back I had setup a Ubuntu 14.04 jump drive (with persistence),
but it's fairly slow, so that may be a concern for you. But I don't
think it has to be that way, I just don't have the time or energy to
try billions of configurations.

antiX 13 was very good and lightning fast, and 16 was just released,
so maybe you should try that instead, it's based upon Debian.

> Side note: Since VBox was updated to 5.0.24 during this thread I decided
> to try a new installation of FreeDOS with it but had the same problem.

If JEMMEX is your only problem, then you have no problems.

>> But nothing beats running natively (on real hardware).
>>
> You're right about that. As Ulrich mentioned earlier, he uses screencast
> software to capture what he's doing. I'm interested in doing the same so
> I think FreeDOS in QEMU on linux is the way to go (for me, at this time).

Who knows, eventually there might be an official Flatpak (or Snappy?)
package that works across all the major distros. I think that will
ease deployment (instead of having billions of separate incompatible
versions).

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Eric Auer]

Hi, to bring in some thoughts from off-list...

JEMMEX has a built-in HIMEM which apparently is known to have
problems when memory useable for XMS is discontinuous, which
happens quite often on modern (virtual) hardware.

The UMBPCI author tries hard to keep supporting modern chipsets
which can be interesting if you do not need EMS. As mentioned,
EMS is less popular than XMS anyway.

To stay on the safe side, people should use HIMEMX + JEMM386
or other combinations instead of JEMMEX. Also, they should be
able to understand the conflict potential of UMB and prepare
to manually add X=... areas based on their personal insights.

Having UMB areas conflicting with other things can cause hidden
instabilities: The actual crash may be delayed until you touch
the hardware or BIOS feature which resides in the conflict area
while at the same time having relevant DOS data in the conflict
UMB area at the same place.

I would like to avoid discussions about specific drivers beyond
the core "only use JEMMEX if you know what you are doing, make
HIMEMX and JEMM386 the preferred option" recommendation and a
warm mention of UMBPCI for those who have supported chipsets.

Peace guys :-) Eric



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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Ulrich Hansen]

> I think FreeDOS in QEMU on linux is the way to go (for me, at this time).

Inspired by this thread I also looked into qemu (even installed it on my Mac).

Just in case you missed it: 
There’s a great tutorial about running FreeDOS 1.1 in qemu.
Part three is all about networking. :-)

The author is Patrick G. Horneker.

http://pclosmag.com/html/issues/201206/page08.html 

http://pclosmag.com/html/Issues/201207/page11.html 

http://pclosmag.com/html/issues/201208/page11.html 

http://pclosmag.com/html/Issues/201210/page11.html 



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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Abe Mishler]

Hi Rugxulo et al.,

On 6/29/2016 1:03 PM, Rugxulo wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 10:05 AM, Abe Mishler  wrote:
>>
>> On 6/28/2016 7:55 PM, Rugxulo wrote:
>>>
>>> I would recommend you (also) test under QEMU if you're that worried or
>>> want (potentially) better stability.
>>>
>> QEMU, while about 10x slower (on Win 8.1 amd64 host), ran perfectly.
>> Thank you for the suggestion. Perhaps there are some optimizations that
>> I don't know about...
>
> Not sure about improving speed, esp. on Windows. There used to be
> kqemu for older versions (0.9.0?), but that's been discontinued.
>
On the page that you sent regarding QEMU Binaries for Windows, it says:
"QEMU for Windows is experimental software and might contain even 
serious bugs, so use the binaries at your own risk."

Since QEMU is more mature on linux right now, I installed Xubuntu 16.04 
LTS inside VirtualBox (5.0.24 now) and then QEMU inside of that. FreeDOS 
is much peppier inside of this configuration. I will probably get 
another HD for a native Xubuntu install and skip the VBox on Win 8.1 
layer altogether.

Side note: Since VBox was updated to 5.0.24 during this thread I decided 
to try a new installation of FreeDOS with it but had the same problem.

> Anyways, VBox itself is allegedly partially based upon QEMU, but it's

Yes, the VBox developer FAQ makes that claim:
https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Developer_FAQ

> not true that QEMU is always slower. At least one thing I was running
> was faster under QEMU (+ Linux) than VBox (+ Win7), even without VT-X.
> But that could be because of many different reasons. Using VT-X (which
> for QEMU means using KVM variant instead) obviously increases speed
> even further.
>
> But nothing beats running natively (on real hardware).
>
You're right about that. As Ulrich mentioned earlier, he uses screencast 
software to capture what he's doing. I'm interested in doing the same so 
I think FreeDOS in QEMU on linux is the way to go (for me, at this time).

Thanks to everyone for joining the discussion and sharing your knowledge 
with me. I learned a lot and consider my problem resolved. On to the next...

Best,
Abe

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 10:05 AM, Abe Mishler  wrote:
>
> On 6/28/2016 7:55 PM, Rugxulo wrote:
>>
>> I would recommend you (also) test under QEMU if you're that worried or
>> want (potentially) better stability.
>>
> QEMU, while about 10x slower (on Win 8.1 amd64 host), ran perfectly.
> Thank you for the suggestion. Perhaps there are some optimizations that
> I don't know about...

Not sure about improving speed, esp. on Windows. There used to be
kqemu for older versions (0.9.0?), but that's been discontinued.

Anyways, VBox itself is allegedly partially based upon QEMU, but it's
not true that QEMU is always slower. At least one thing I was running
was faster under QEMU (+ Linux) than VBox (+ Win7), even without VT-X.
But that could be because of many different reasons. Using VT-X (which
for QEMU means using KVM variant instead) obviously increases speed
even further.

But nothing beats running natively (on real hardware).

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Abe Mishler]

On 6/28/2016 7:55 PM, Rugxulo wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Abe Mishler  wrote:
>>
>> Strange, right? And not just on one computer, but three separate ones; each
>> running different hardware and software (host OS). Although I would expect
>> that the underlying differences are abstracted away by VirtualBox.
>
> It's not really that strange. EMS is rarely used nowadays, and DOS (in
> all its billions of setups) isn't highly tested by emulators. Their
> focus is on other, more popular, guests.
>
> It's impossible (or maybe unprofitable) to test every emulator under
> the sun (dozens!), plus having to work around all the bugs and missing
> features. Some OSes present bigger problems than others (OS/2,
> OpenBSD), even requiring VT-X compatible hardware.
>
> I would recommend you (also) test under QEMU if you're that worried or
> want (potentially) better stability. At least Windows (32-bit or
> 64-bit) binaries are easily available below (not to mention that QEMU
> runs on various other host OSes too, e.g. Linux):
>
> http://qemu.weilnetz.de/
>
QEMU, while about 10x slower (on Win 8.1 amd64 host), ran perfectly. 
Thank you for the suggestion. Perhaps there are some optimizations that 
I don't know about...

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Ulrich Hansen]

> Am 29.06.2016 um 13:08 schrieb Don Flowers :
> 
> The only drivers that work for this is Ulrich's FreeDOS 1.0 drivers Himem.exe 
> and "EMM386.EXE NOEMS"

Before someone gets it wrong: The drivers were written by Tom Ehlert, Michael 
Devore and other fine people. Thanks!



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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Don Flowers]

I use Novell  Personal Netware for networking with a dedicated server plus
each of 4 other machines acting in SERVER/CLIENT mode

The only drivers that work for this is Ulrich's FreeDOS 1.0 drivers
Himem.exe and "EMM386.EXE NOEMS" (no other switch is necessary). I load DOS
HIGH, UMB.

This gives me between 689 & 717 conventional and 44-46 UMB depending on the
machine. CTMOUSE doesn't like some of my programs so I use a  Logitech
Mouse driver which utilizes high memory on its own. After PNW gets loaded,
I end up with 444-456 conventional with 4k left in UMB plus a reserve EMS
which gets managed by PNW and it own DPMS driver.

On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 6:09 AM, Ulrich Hansen  wrote:

> Am 28.06.2016 um 22:55 schrieb Abe Mishler :
>
> >> is pretty unstable, at least for me.
> > It seems like you should be excluding a different region of memory. From
> your screenshot: E300-EDFF.
>
> The packet driver works, but FDAPM is still crashing when I exclude
> E300-EDFF.
>
> >> But the default line didn’t work for you at all. Hmm.
> > Strange, right? And not just on one computer, but three separate ones;
> each running different hardware and software (host OS). Although I would
> expect that the underlying differences are abstracted away by VirtualBox.
>
> I created the VirtualBox „FreeDOS 1.1.net" image in February. Immediately
> five people complained (very politely) about crashes. No boot menu option
> worked that included JEMMEX or JEMM386.
>
> As temporary fix, I replaced JEMMEX with the obsolete HIMEM.EXE and
> EMM386.EXE from FreeDOS 1.0. There has been no complaint since. (The
> "FreeDOS 1.1net" VirtualBox image has been downloaded 815 times in 2016).
>
>
> > Am 29.06.2016 um 00:24 schrieb Eric Auer :
> >
> > To explain the different memory types:
>
> Thank you! Clears things up and refreshes the memory. This should be part
> of the FreeDOS wiki. Reminds me of the time, when I was reading the MS-DOS
> 5.0 manual in 1992. Got my first computer the day before and intended to
> read the manual first. So I sat on a river bench and read about optimizing
> the use of UMBs. :-)
>
> > UMB - provided by EMM386 - lets you load various drivers
> >  high, can also be provided by UMBPCI or other hardware
> >  drivers, can cause stability issues in conflict cases
>
> This is the reason I want some EMM. For DOS networking I need to load
> drivers, especially for MS Client.
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Ulrich Hansen]

Am 28.06.2016 um 22:55 schrieb Abe Mishler :

>> is pretty unstable, at least for me.
> It seems like you should be excluding a different region of memory. From your 
> screenshot: E300-EDFF.

The packet driver works, but FDAPM is still crashing when I exclude E300-EDFF.  

>> But the default line didn’t work for you at all. Hmm.
> Strange, right? And not just on one computer, but three separate ones; each 
> running different hardware and software (host OS). Although I would expect 
> that the underlying differences are abstracted away by VirtualBox.

I created the VirtualBox „FreeDOS 1.1.net" image in February. Immediately five 
people complained (very politely) about crashes. No boot menu option worked 
that included JEMMEX or JEMM386.

As temporary fix, I replaced JEMMEX with the obsolete HIMEM.EXE and EMM386.EXE 
from FreeDOS 1.0. There has been no complaint since. (The "FreeDOS 1.1net" 
VirtualBox image has been downloaded 815 times in 2016). 


> Am 29.06.2016 um 00:24 schrieb Eric Auer :
> 
> To explain the different memory types:

Thank you! Clears things up and refreshes the memory. This should be part of 
the FreeDOS wiki. Reminds me of the time, when I was reading the MS-DOS 5.0 
manual in 1992. Got my first computer the day before and intended to read the 
manual first. So I sat on a river bench and read about optimizing the use of 
UMBs. :-)

> UMB - provided by EMM386 - lets you load various drivers
>  high, can also be provided by UMBPCI or other hardware
>  drivers, can cause stability issues in conflict cases

This is the reason I want some EMM. For DOS networking I need to load drivers, 
especially for MS Client.
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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Abe Mishler  wrote:
>
> Strange, right? And not just on one computer, but three separate ones; each
> running different hardware and software (host OS). Although I would expect
> that the underlying differences are abstracted away by VirtualBox.

It's not really that strange. EMS is rarely used nowadays, and DOS (in
all its billions of setups) isn't highly tested by emulators. Their
focus is on other, more popular, guests.

It's impossible (or maybe unprofitable) to test every emulator under
the sun (dozens!), plus having to work around all the bugs and missing
features. Some OSes present bigger problems than others (OS/2,
OpenBSD), even requiring VT-X compatible hardware.

I would recommend you (also) test under QEMU if you're that worried or
want (potentially) better stability. At least Windows (32-bit or
64-bit) binaries are easily available below (not to mention that QEMU
runs on various other host OSes too, e.g. Linux):

http://qemu.weilnetz.de/

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Eric Auer]

Hi Uli and Abe,

indeed it seems like it is not trivial to find the right
excluded areas for UMB to have stability. Having no page
frame is okay - EMS 4 aware software can still use EMS,
only EMS 3 software will miss a frame.

Normally it is enough to have 550k conventional free.

To explain the different memory types:

low DOS memory - the usual 640 kB that you always use,
  where you want to have at least 500 something free.

HMA - provided by HIMEM - lets mainly DOS kernel load high

XMS - provided by HIMEM - lets various DOS programs enjoy
  extra megabytes (ramdisk, dos extenders, caches etc.)

UMB - provided by EMM386 - lets you load various drivers
  high, can also be provided by UMBPCI or other hardware
  drivers, can cause stability issues in conflict cases

EMS - provided by EMM386 or old special hardware - lets
  old DOS programs enjoy some extra memory for page swap
  and extra data storage, not often needed by modern apps

VCPI - provided by EMM386 - lets DOS extenders share the
  protected mode with EMM386, so if you do not load EMM386
  in the first place, you will not need VCPI either. The
  special GEMMIS feature is similar, but for Windows 3.

DPMI - provided by Windows and some DOS extenders - lets
  programs which use DOS extenders share protected mode,
  popular for modern games. Often, games come with their
  own DPMI driver to be able to run outside of Windows,
  using XMS or raw memory in that case.

Raw memory - if you use protected mode "by hand", you can
  of course use all those megabytes outside the first DOS
  megabyte-and-a-bit, too. But using XMS or DPMI often is
  more convenient.

What does this tell you for normal users? You should load
HIMEM for HMA and XMS. If you need space to load drivers
high, you should also use EMM386. The rest will be magic
DOS extender use of whatever suitable memory you have and
only in rare cases you would actually need EMS :-)

Note that HIMEMX and XMGR are like HIMEM and JEMM386 is
like EMM386, while JEMMEX is like both HIMEM and EMM386
combined into a single driver, with some pros and cons.

Regards, Eric



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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Abe Mishler]

Guys,

> On Jun 28, 2016, at 3:39 PM, Ulrich Hansen  wrote:
> 
> 
>> Am 28.06.2016 um 21:19 schrieb Ulrich Hansen :
>> 
>> The trick is to load PCNTPK low in option 1. Then it won’t crash with your 
>> JEMMEX options. At least for me. :-)
>> 
>> PCNTPK INT=0x60
> 
> Okay, and FDAPM crashes too. I need to load it into conventional memory as 
> well.
You are running a more advanced FreeDOS configuration than me at the moment. 
Mine is still a vanilla install. Nothing extra.
> 
> All in all it seems your configuration 
> 
>> 1?DEVICE=C:\FDOS\BIN\JEMMEX.EXE NOEMS X=C900-DFFF I=TEST NOVME NOINVLPG
> 
> 
> is pretty unstable, at least for me.
> 
It seems like you should be excluding a different region of memory. From your 
screenshot: E300-EDFF.

> But the default line didn’t work for you at all. Hmm.
Strange, right? And not just on one computer, but three separate ones; each 
running different hardware and software (host OS). Although I would expect that 
the underlying differences are abstracted away by VirtualBox.

> 
> 
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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 12:56 PM, Abe Mishler  wrote:
>
> It's apparent that a well written book might help me come up
> to speed on all of these memory modes and managers.

I'm not an expert, but the simple answer is you don't need all of
them. Pure XMS (and optional DPMI) should suffice for most uses. Don't
overcomplicate it. Don't worry about every feature under the sun
unless an app you want to run direly needs it (unlikely). EMS is quite
old and rare, and even without EMM386, the amount of conventional
memory free should be "good enough" for most existing programs, so you
probably don't need UMBs at all. (But see UMBPCI. Or EMS Magic, which
reuses conventional memory, which is sometimes better for
compatibility.) Besides, you can "JEMM386 LOAD" (and "UNLOAD") later
if you (temporarily) need EMS for something (but not for UMBs).

Somebody, when preparing FD 1.1, was perhaps overzealous for features
when trying to support JEMMEX. But, for the record, VBox is not
necessarily bug-free or a primary target (remember that DOS is meant
for actual native booting, or at least was before UEFI). So yes,
presumably EMM386 (et al.) work better on "real" native hardware than
emulators. That can't be avoided, but perhaps it's not wise to
recommend (or even include) overcomplicated JEMMEX config lines in
future FD versions. (This has been discussed before, so you're not the
first one to notice this hanging VBox + JEMMEX behavior.)

P.S. Emulators are still (usually) run on top of advanced host OSes.
So I'm not sure certain low-level DOS things are directly useful there
(software cache, screen saver, ultra DMA). So I wouldn't worry about
those either.

> My interest is in programming anyways (I'm new to DOS but not programming).
> Any suggestions?

The officially recommended compilers / languages are C (OpenWatcom)
and assembler (NASM). But the DJGPP tree is quite nice too (and
includes barely-related offshoots like Free Pascal, FreeBASIC, and
more). None of these need EMS or UMBs.

So it's unlikely you'll be interested in EMS at all. Stick to real
mode (640 kb) or DPMI (2 GB).

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Ulrich Hansen]

> Am 28.06.2016 um 21:19 schrieb Ulrich Hansen :
> 
> The trick is to load PCNTPK low in option 1. Then it won’t crash with your 
> JEMMEX options. At least for me. :-)
> 
> PCNTPK INT=0x60

Okay, and FDAPM crashes too. I need to load it into conventional memory as well.

All in all it seems your configuration 

> 1?DEVICE=C:\FDOS\BIN\JEMMEX.EXE NOEMS X=C900-DFFF I=TEST NOVME NOINVLPG


is pretty unstable, at least for me.

But the default line didn’t work for you at all. Hmm.


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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Ulrich Hansen]

> Am 28.06.2016 um 20:41 schrieb Ulrich Hansen :
> 
> If I look closely, I find that PCNTPK crashes at boot. So I have no network. 
> No wonder all the memory is free.
> https://www.lazybrowndog.net/freedos/files/freedos1.1-vbox-opt1-memory2.png 
> 
> 
> So your solution won’t work for all VirtualBox users…
> I have Version 5.0.14 r105127 running in OS X 10.10.5.

Okay. I also tried it with the new version 5.0.22 but everything’s the same. 
BUT:

The trick is to load PCNTPK low in option 1. Then it won’t crash with your 
JEMMEX options. At least for me. :-)

PCNTPK INT=0x60


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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Ulrich Hansen]

Hi Abe (and hi Eric!)

> Am 28.06.2016 um 16:42 schrieb Abe Mishler :
> 
> 1?DEVICE=C:\FDOS\BIN\JEMMEX.EXE NOEMS X=C900-DFFF I=TEST NOVME NOINVLPG
> 
> Boot option 1 (http://tinypic.com/r/zm1boj/9 ):
> Total memory Free: 26,699K
> Total Expanded (EMS): 8,576K
> Free Expanded (EMS): 8,192K
> Largest executable program size: 597K
> Largest free upper memory block: 2K


With the FreeDOS 1.1 default line

1?DEVICE=C:\FDOS\BIN\JEMMEX.EXE NOEMS X=TEST I=TEST NOVME NOINVLPG

I get less free conventional memory:

Boot option 1 
(https://www.lazybrowndog.net/freedos/files/freedos1.1-vbox-opt1-memory.png 
)
Total memory Free: 26,682K
Total Expanded (EMS): 8,576K
Free Expanded (EMS): 8,192K
Largest executable program size: 579K
Largest free upper memory block: 2K

If I try your configuration in my FreeDOS 1.1 VirtualBox image I get even 601K 
executable program size BUT:
If I look closely, I find that PCNTPK crashes at boot. So I have no network. No 
wonder all the memory is free.
https://www.lazybrowndog.net/freedos/files/freedos1.1-vbox-opt1-memory2.png 


So your solution won’t work for all VirtualBox users…
I have Version 5.0.14 r105127 running in OS X 10.10.5.


PS: I use a screencast software to record boot messages in VBox - otherwise 
they move to quickly to read them.

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Abe Mishler]

On 6/28/2016 11:08 AM, Eric Auer wrote:
>
> Hi Abe,
>
>> Based on Eric's suggestion of using more cautious settings,
>> I found the JEMMEX doc page
>> (http://help.fdos.org/en/hhstndrd/base/jemmex.htm)
>
> The documentation is also included in your installation on disk.
>
>> 1?DEVICE=C:\FDOS\BIN\JEMMEX.EXE NOEMS X=C900-DFFF I=TEST NOVME NOINVLPG
>
> You could also try X=TEST Without I=TEST, but excluding C900 to DFFF
> seems to be an even more cautious choice for your specific system.
>
Doing that results in an additional message before crashing so it looks 
like I will have to stick with the specific exclusion.

The additional message:
Warning: no suitable page frame found, EMS functions limited.

>> Boot option 1 no longer crashes, but it doesn't appear to be an
>> improvement over boot option 2...
>
> Option 2 loads SHARE and uses HIMEMX together with JEMM386 instead
> of JEMMEX which combines "HIMEM" and "EMM386" into a single driver.
> Option 2 also moves the PCNTPK network packet driver to UMB, which
> is why you have slightly more "largest executable program size" in
> option 2 compared to option 1 in spite of option 2 loading SHARE.
>
> You can try using LH for PCNTPK, but if you do not use internet in
> DOS, you could simply comment out the whole line that loads PCNTPK.
>
> If you only use EMS-aware software which is EMS 4.0 compatible,
> you can disable EMS 3.2 compatible page frames with some option
> for JEMMEX and JEMM386: That way, you get 64 kB extra space for
> UMB use, so it will be easier to LH things and gain low space.
>
> I think today EMM386 is more often used for UMB and less often
> for EMS. If you only use UMB but do not need EMS at all, you
> can also disable EMS 3.2 compatible page frames, of course :-)
>
>> Boot option 1 (http://tinypic.com/r/zm1boj/9): [JEMMEX]
>> Total memory Free: 26,699K
>> Total Expanded (EMS): 8,576K
>> Free Expanded (EMS): 8,192K
>> Largest executable program size: 597K
>> Largest free upper memory block: 2K
>
>> Boot option 2 (http://tinypic.com/r/2zzjl77/9): [HIMEMX+JEMM386]
>> Total memory Free: 26,669K
>> Total Expanded (EMS): 31M
>
> Interesting that JEMM386 defaults to offer more EMS than JEMMEX.
>
>> Free Expanded (EMS): 25M
>
> Odd, what happened to the other 6 MB of EMS?
>
I was wondering that myself...

>> Largest executable program size: 610K
>
> This is because that option loads SHARE & network drivers high.
>
>> Largest free upper memory block: 4K
>
> This is interesting: In spite of loading more things into UMB,
> you have more UMB left. That MIGHT mean that option 2 does not
> have the X=C900-DFFF option but still is lucky enough to avoid
> a crash? It could already be unstable, though. Maybe it would
> still crash as soon as you use the network in DOS.
>
Right, I didn't block that region in option 2. I used networking with 
option 2 to install the VBOX-FIX COM patch earlier. I didn't experience 
a crash. Perhaps I was "lucky". What's interesting is that there is no 
delay loading the UIDE driver so maybe Oracle has fixed the bus scan 
problem with VirtualBox rendering the patch unnecessary. Perhaps someone 
else can duplicate these results and confirm.

> ALSO, the option 2 takes the "dangerous" step of explicitly
> including the monochrome graphics card text memory area as
> UMB memory (I=B000-B7FF). This means that attempts to use a
> program which uses monochrome video modes may cause crashes.
> It could also be the real reason why more UMB is free there.
>
I was going to use option 2 even after all of this, but I will remain 
with option 1 now that it works; especially since you have indicated 
twice now that option 2 might be unstable. Thanks for that insight.

> I think that even 597 kB of low DOS memory is plenty for old
> DOS programs. New DOS programs use a DOS extender anyway, so
> they will be able to use your EMS and XMS, which are several
> megabytes. You can use other MEM command line options to see
> more details. Check the output of "MEM /?" to learn more :-)
>
> Regards, Eric
>
> PS: Do you use a special MOUSE or the usual CTMOUSE driver?
>
I have not installed a mouse driver or configured the mouse in any way. 
My AUTOEXEC.BAT has the standard "MOUSE" command in it.

> PPS: I see 1.1 uses XMGR in option 3 and 4DOS in option 4,
> not sure if those are included in the 1.2 distro any more.
>
For the record it looks like 4DOS is also in option 3, but thanks for 
the info. It's apparent that a well written book might help me come up 
to speed on all of these memory modes and managers. My interest is in 
programming anyways (I'm new to DOS but not programming). Any suggestions?
>
Thanks,
Abe

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Eric Auer]

Hi Abe,

> Based on Eric's suggestion of using more cautious settings,
> I found the JEMMEX doc page
> (http://help.fdos.org/en/hhstndrd/base/jemmex.htm)

The documentation is also included in your installation on disk.

> 1?DEVICE=C:\FDOS\BIN\JEMMEX.EXE NOEMS X=C900-DFFF I=TEST NOVME NOINVLPG

You could also try X=TEST Without I=TEST, but excluding C900 to DFFF
seems to be an even more cautious choice for your specific system.

> Boot option 1 no longer crashes, but it doesn't appear to be an 
> improvement over boot option 2...

Option 2 loads SHARE and uses HIMEMX together with JEMM386 instead
of JEMMEX which combines "HIMEM" and "EMM386" into a single driver.
Option 2 also moves the PCNTPK network packet driver to UMB, which
is why you have slightly more "largest executable program size" in
option 2 compared to option 1 in spite of option 2 loading SHARE.

You can try using LH for PCNTPK, but if you do not use internet in
DOS, you could simply comment out the whole line that loads PCNTPK.

If you only use EMS-aware software which is EMS 4.0 compatible,
you can disable EMS 3.2 compatible page frames with some option
for JEMMEX and JEMM386: That way, you get 64 kB extra space for
UMB use, so it will be easier to LH things and gain low space.

I think today EMM386 is more often used for UMB and less often
for EMS. If you only use UMB but do not need EMS at all, you
can also disable EMS 3.2 compatible page frames, of course :-)

> Boot option 1 (http://tinypic.com/r/zm1boj/9): [JEMMEX]
> Total memory Free: 26,699K
> Total Expanded (EMS): 8,576K
> Free Expanded (EMS): 8,192K
> Largest executable program size: 597K
> Largest free upper memory block: 2K

> Boot option 2 (http://tinypic.com/r/2zzjl77/9): [HIMEMX+JEMM386]
> Total memory Free: 26,669K
> Total Expanded (EMS): 31M

Interesting that JEMM386 defaults to offer more EMS than JEMMEX.

> Free Expanded (EMS): 25M

Odd, what happened to the other 6 MB of EMS?

> Largest executable program size: 610K

This is because that option loads SHARE & network drivers high.

> Largest free upper memory block: 4K

This is interesting: In spite of loading more things into UMB,
you have more UMB left. That MIGHT mean that option 2 does not
have the X=C900-DFFF option but still is lucky enough to avoid
a crash? It could already be unstable, though. Maybe it would
still crash as soon as you use the network in DOS.

ALSO, the option 2 takes the "dangerous" step of explicitly
including the monochrome graphics card text memory area as
UMB memory (I=B000-B7FF). This means that attempts to use a
program which uses monochrome video modes may cause crashes.
It could also be the real reason why more UMB is free there.

I think that even 597 kB of low DOS memory is plenty for old
DOS programs. New DOS programs use a DOS extender anyway, so
they will be able to use your EMS and XMS, which are several
megabytes. You can use other MEM command line options to see
more details. Check the output of "MEM /?" to learn more :-)

Regards, Eric

PS: Do you use a special MOUSE or the usual CTMOUSE driver?

PPS: I see 1.1 uses XMGR in option 3 and 4DOS in option 4,
not sure if those are included in the 1.2 distro any more.



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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Abe Mishler]

Hi Ulrich,

Thanks for the link. I compared the 2 files and didn't find anything of 
significance. Your change:

IF "%config%"=="2" PCNTPK INT=0x60
IF NOT "%config%"=="2" LH PCNTPK INT=0x60

seems smart, however.

Based on Eric's suggestion of using more cautious settings, I found the 
JEMMEX doc page
(http://help.fdos.org/en/hhstndrd/base/jemmex.htm)

and learned how to change the JEMMEX options. I excluded the region of 
memory that might already be in use (indicated in the original error 
message):
1?DEVICE=C:\FDOS\BIN\JEMMEX.EXE NOEMS X=C900-DFFF I=TEST NOVME NOINVLPG

Boot option 1 no longer crashes, but it doesn't appear to be an 
improvement over boot option 2. Here is what I am getting from C:\mem 
after boot:

Boot option 1 (http://tinypic.com/r/zm1boj/9):
Total memory Free: 26,699K
Total Expanded (EMS): 8,576K
Free Expanded (EMS): 8,192K
Largest executable program size: 597K
Largest free upper memory block: 2K

Boot option 2 (http://tinypic.com/r/2zzjl77/9):
Total memory Free: 26,669K
Total Expanded (EMS): 31M
Free Expanded (EMS): 25M
Largest executable program size: 610K
Largest free upper memory block: 4K

I don't have much experience with the way DOS memory works. What do you 
think of these results? Anything else I should be looking at?

Thanks,
Abe

On 6/27/2016 8:23 PM, Ulrich Hansen wrote:
> Hi Abe,
>
> if you like, take a look at:
>
> https://www.lazybrowndog.net/freedos/virtualbox
>
> There are three VirtualBox images of FreeDOS 1.1.
>
> I put quite some effort in them to make them work. I remember the crash
> you are talking about, but, sorry, I don’t remember how I fixed it
> (wasn’t it something about not loading high something?? Very sorry.
> Maybe you compare the AUTOEXEC.BAT and FDCONFIG.SYS of the FreeDOS 1.1
> VirtualBox image?
>
> -
> AUTOEXEC.BAT
>
> @echo off
> SET LANG=EN
> SET MTCPCFG=C:\FDOS\MTCP.CFG
> SET WATTCP.CFG=C:\FDOS
> SET PATH=%dosdir%\BIN;C:\DOSZIP
> SET NLSPATH=%dosdir%\NLS
> SET HELPPATH=%dosdir%\HELP
> SET TEMP=%dosdir%\TEMP
> SET TMP=%TEMP%
> SET BLASTER=A220 I5 D1 H5 P330
> SET DIRCMD=/P /OGN /4
> SET COPYCMD=/-Y
> if "%config%"=="4" goto end
> SHSUCDX /QQ /D3
> LH SHSUCDHD /QQ /F:FDBOOTCD.ISO
> LH FDAPM APMDOS
> IF "%config%"=="2" LH SHARE
> LH DOSLFN
> REM NLSFUNC C:\FDOS\BIN\COUNTRY.SYS
> REM DISPLAY CON=(EGA),858,2)
> REM MODE CON CP PREP=((858) C:\FDOS\CPI\EGA.CPX)
> REM KEYB US,858,C:\FDOS\bin\keyboard.sys
> REM KEYB GR,,keyboard.sys /NOHI
> REM CHCP 858
> IF "%config%"=="2" PCNTPK INT=0x60
> IF NOT "%config%"=="2" LH PCNTPK INT=0x60
> DHCP
> REM M2WAT.COM  transfers the mTCP configuration to
> WATTCP.CFG.
> REM Disable it, if you want to use a custom WATTCP.CFG.
> C:\FDOS\M2WAT.COM 
> MOUSE
> DEVLOAD /H /Q %dosdir%\BIN\UIDE.SYS /H /D:FDCD0001 /S5
> SHSUCDX /QQ /~ /D:?SHSU-CDR,D /D:?SHSU-CDH,D /D:?FDCD0001,D
> /D:?FDCD0002,D /D:?FDCD0003,D
> MEM /C /N
> IF NOT "%config%"=="4" SHSUCDX /D
> GOTO END
> :END
> SET AUTOFILE=%0
> SET CFGFILE=C:\FDCONFIG.SYS
> alias reboot=fdapm warmboot
> alias reset=fdisk /reboot
> alias halt=fdapm poweroff
> alias shutdown=fdapm poweroff
> alias cfg=edit %cfgfile%
> alias auto=edit %0
> echo Done processing startup files %cfgfile% and %0
> echo Type HELP to get support on commands and navigation
> echo.
> echo Welcome to the FreeDOS 1.1 operating system (http://www.freedos.org)
>
>
> -
> FDCONFIG.SYS
>
> !COUNTRY=001,858,C:\FDOS\BIN\COUNTRY.SYS
> !SET DOSDIR=C:\FDOS
> !LASTDRIVE=Z
> !BUFFERS=20
> !FILES=40
> !MENUCOLOR=7,0
> MENUDEFAULT=1,5
> MENU 1 - Load FreeDOS with JEMMEX, no EMS (most UMBs), max RAM free
> MENU 2 - Load FreeDOS with EMM386 (Expanded Memory) and SHARE loaded
> MENU 3 - Load FreeDOS including XMGR XMS-memory driver
> MENU 4 - Load FreeDOS without drivers
> 123?DOS=HIGH
> 12?DOS=UMB
> 12?DOSDATA=UMB
> 1?DEVICE=C:\FDOS\BIN\JEMMEX.EXE NOEMS X=TEST I=TEST NOVME NOINVLPG
> 2?DEVICE=C:\FDOS\BIN\HIMEMX.EXE
> 2?DEVICE=C:\FDOS\BIN\JEMM386.EXE X=TEST I=TEST I=B000-B7FF NOVME NOINVLPG
> 3?DEVICE=C:\FDOS\BIN\XMGR.SYS
> 3?SHELL=C:\FDOS\bin\4dos.com  C:\FDOS\bin /E:1024
> /P:C:\AUTOEXEC.BAT
> 4?SHELL=C:\FDOS\BIN\COMMAND.COM  C:\FDOS\BIN /E:1024
> /P=C:\AUTOEXEC.BAT
> 12?SHELLHIGH=C:\FDOS\BIN\COMMAND.COM  C:\FDOS\BIN
> /E:1024 /P=C:\AUTOEXEC.BAT
>
>
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> Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to tech luminaries
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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Ulrich Hansen]

Hi Abe,

if you like, take a look at:

https://www.lazybrowndog.net/freedos/virtualbox 


There are three VirtualBox images of FreeDOS 1.1. 

I put quite some effort in them to make them work. I remember the crash you are 
talking about, but, sorry, I don’t remember how I fixed it (wasn’t it something 
about not loading high something?? Very sorry. Maybe you compare the 
AUTOEXEC.BAT and FDCONFIG.SYS of the FreeDOS 1.1 VirtualBox image?

-
AUTOEXEC.BAT

@echo off
SET LANG=EN
SET MTCPCFG=C:\FDOS\MTCP.CFG
SET WATTCP.CFG=C:\FDOS
SET PATH=%dosdir%\BIN;C:\DOSZIP
SET NLSPATH=%dosdir%\NLS
SET HELPPATH=%dosdir%\HELP
SET TEMP=%dosdir%\TEMP
SET TMP=%TEMP%
SET BLASTER=A220 I5 D1 H5 P330
SET DIRCMD=/P /OGN /4
SET COPYCMD=/-Y
if "%config%"=="4" goto end
SHSUCDX /QQ /D3
LH SHSUCDHD /QQ /F:FDBOOTCD.ISO
LH FDAPM APMDOS
IF "%config%"=="2" LH SHARE
LH DOSLFN
REM NLSFUNC C:\FDOS\BIN\COUNTRY.SYS
REM DISPLAY CON=(EGA),858,2)
REM MODE CON CP PREP=((858) C:\FDOS\CPI\EGA.CPX)
REM KEYB US,858,C:\FDOS\bin\keyboard.sys
REM KEYB GR,,keyboard.sys /NOHI
REM CHCP 858
IF "%config%"=="2" PCNTPK INT=0x60
IF NOT "%config%"=="2" LH PCNTPK INT=0x60
DHCP
REM M2WAT.COM  transfers the mTCP configuration to 
WATTCP.CFG.
REM Disable it, if you want to use a custom WATTCP.CFG.
C:\FDOS\M2WAT.COM 
MOUSE
DEVLOAD /H /Q %dosdir%\BIN\UIDE.SYS /H /D:FDCD0001 /S5
SHSUCDX /QQ /~ /D:?SHSU-CDR,D /D:?SHSU-CDH,D /D:?FDCD0001,D /D:?FDCD0002,D 
/D:?FDCD0003,D
MEM /C /N
IF NOT "%config%"=="4" SHSUCDX /D
GOTO END
:END
SET AUTOFILE=%0
SET CFGFILE=C:\FDCONFIG.SYS
alias reboot=fdapm warmboot
alias reset=fdisk /reboot
alias halt=fdapm poweroff
alias shutdown=fdapm poweroff
alias cfg=edit %cfgfile%
alias auto=edit %0
echo Done processing startup files %cfgfile% and %0
echo Type HELP to get support on commands and navigation
echo.
echo Welcome to the FreeDOS 1.1 operating system (http://www.freedos.org 
)


-
FDCONFIG.SYS

!COUNTRY=001,858,C:\FDOS\BIN\COUNTRY.SYS 
!SET DOSDIR=C:\FDOS
!LASTDRIVE=Z
!BUFFERS=20 
!FILES=40
!MENUCOLOR=7,0
MENUDEFAULT=1,5
MENU 1 - Load FreeDOS with JEMMEX, no EMS (most UMBs), max RAM free
MENU 2 - Load FreeDOS with EMM386 (Expanded Memory) and SHARE loaded
MENU 3 - Load FreeDOS including XMGR XMS-memory driver
MENU 4 - Load FreeDOS without drivers 
123?DOS=HIGH
12?DOS=UMB
12?DOSDATA=UMB
1?DEVICE=C:\FDOS\BIN\JEMMEX.EXE NOEMS X=TEST I=TEST NOVME NOINVLPG
2?DEVICE=C:\FDOS\BIN\HIMEMX.EXE 
2?DEVICE=C:\FDOS\BIN\JEMM386.EXE X=TEST I=TEST I=B000-B7FF NOVME NOINVLPG
3?DEVICE=C:\FDOS\BIN\XMGR.SYS 
3?SHELL=C:\FDOS\bin\4dos.com  C:\FDOS\bin /E:1024 
/P:C:\AUTOEXEC.BAT  
4?SHELL=C:\FDOS\BIN\COMMAND.COM  C:\FDOS\BIN /E:1024 
/P=C:\AUTOEXEC.BAT 
12?SHELLHIGH=C:\FDOS\BIN\COMMAND.COM  C:\FDOS\BIN /E:1024 
/P=C:\AUTOEXEC.BAT --
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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Abe Mishler]

Eric,

Thanks for your time and attention. See my responses inline.

On 6/27/2016 3:05 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
>
> Hi Abe,
>
>> upon bootup and selecting option 1, I get the following message:
>>
>> JemmEx v5.75 [05/21/11]
>> System memory found at c900-dfff, region might be in use
>> JemmEx loaded
>> Kernel: allocated 46 Diskbuffers = 24472 Bytes in HMA
>>
>> after which nothing ever happens. It hangs permanently.
>
> This means that JEMMEX (EMM386) tried to allocate UMB but
> predicted troubles. Soon after that, DOS does indeed hang.
> I suggest to select a boot option without JEMMEX instead.
>
I understood JEMMEX to be the preferred option. Yes, the other boot 
options all work.

> Alternatively, you could change the JEMMEX options in your
> config.sys to more cautious settings regarding UMB areas.
> Then you get at least some UMB and thus more free DOS RAM.
>
Can you point me in the direction of a good resource where I could learn 
about adjusting the JEMMEX options/settings?

Why are the JEMMEX defaults not set to work with a 
fresh install? Or does it work for most people, and my 3 computers just 
happen to all not work?

>> I don't believe this is related to the UIDE driver...
>
> It is possible that the same memory area where JEMMEX tries
> to allocate UMB is also in use for disk, network or UMB I/O
> buffers of your virtual hardware... So it is possible that a
> crash is more likely with UIDE (more modern disk I/O) but a
> better solution compared to avoiding UIDE would be to select
> more cautious JEMMEX options regarding that memory region.
>
Perhaps I should allocate more than 32MB of RAM to avoid this collision? 
I will try that too.

>> Boot options 2,3,4 all work without issue.
>
> What are the names of boot options 1, 2, 3 and 4 respectively?
>
They are the stock options found in the C:\FDCONFIG.SYS file:

1 - Load FreeDOS with JEMMEX, no EMS (most UMBs), max RAM free
2 - Load FreeDOS with EMM386 (Expanded Memory) and SHARE loaded
3 - Load FreeDOS including XMGR XMS-memory driver
4 - Load FreeDOS without drivers

I have not altered C:\FDCONFIG.SYS.

> Regards, Eric
>
Thanks again
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Eric Auer]

Hi Abe,

> upon bootup and selecting option 1, I get the following message:
> 
> JemmEx v5.75 [05/21/11]
> System memory found at c900-dfff, region might be in use
> JemmEx loaded
> Kernel: allocated 46 Diskbuffers = 24472 Bytes in HMA
> 
> after which nothing ever happens. It hangs permanently.

This means that JEMMEX (EMM386) tried to allocate UMB but
predicted troubles. Soon after that, DOS does indeed hang.
I suggest to select a boot option without JEMMEX instead.

Alternatively, you could change the JEMMEX options in your
config.sys to more cautious settings regarding UMB areas.
Then you get at least some UMB and thus more free DOS RAM.

> I don't believe this is related to the UIDE driver...

It is possible that the same memory area where JEMMEX tries
to allocate UMB is also in use for disk, network or UMB I/O
buffers of your virtual hardware... So it is possible that a
crash is more likely with UIDE (more modern disk I/O) but a
better solution compared to avoiding UIDE would be to select
more cautious JEMMEX options regarding that memory region.

> Boot options 2,3,4 all work without issue.

What are the names of boot options 1, 2, 3 and 4 respectively?

Regards, Eric



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[Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.1 crashing in VirtualBox 5.0.22

[Abe Mishler]

Dear List,

I've attempted to install FreeDOS 1.1 using VirtualBox 5.0.22 on 3 
different machines with 3 different operating systems: (Macbook Pro 
(10.11.5), Windows 8.1 Home, and Windows 10 Pro). On each system, upon 
bootup and selecting option 1, I get the following message:

JemmEx v5.75 [05/21/11]
System memory found at c900-dfff, region might be in use
JemmEx loaded
Kernel: allocated 46 Diskbuffers = 24472 Bytes in HMA

after which nothing ever happens. It hangs permanently. I don't believe 
this is related to the UIDE driver as suggested in the installation Wiki 
pages because of where it freezes. Regardless, I installed the VBOX-FIX 
COM patch on the Windows 10 Pro setup and it didn't solve the problem.

Boot options 2,3,4 all work without issue.

Has anyone else run into this? Your help in understanding (& fixing!) 
this is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Abe

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