Re: Mac's can't connect to WAP

[peter]

On Mar 23, 9:44 am, PM7500  wrote:
> Are they trying to connect using WPA encryption? I've been trying for
> months to get any of my Macs to connect to my Wi-Fi router using WPA
> and I can only connect with WEP.
>
No, the Wireless Access Points are, basicaly un-encripted, you don't
need a password, or any personal info, you just have to click the "I
Agree" button on the terms page, and you are on the web.

BTW, my co-worker forgot his G4 at home, but he might be back downtown
later, and we can check wireless then...
Peter

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Re: [Bulk] Re: Mac's can't connect to WAP

[John Martz]

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 9:44 AM, PM7500  wrote:
> Are they trying to connect using WPA encryption? I've been trying for
> months to get any of my Macs to connect to my Wi-Fi router using WPA
> and I can only connect with WEP.

Sorry to hear that. Last time I glanced around, no one bothers with
publishing methods for hacking into WEP any longer. Instead it has
more the air of a contest. "How quickly can you hack past WEP?"

At this point in time WEP strikes me as the security equivalent of a
spring loaded door latch. Sure the door is "locked". But almost anyone
who wants to get past it will do so as though the door was unlocked.

Because I live where I do I often go out for short trips without
bothering to lock a door of my house. Basically my security protocol
is counting on the statistical likelihood that no will bother. I think
that's pretty much the same security used on a the vast majority of
home wireless setups at the moment. :-(

-irrational john

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Re: Mac's can't connect to WAP

[Dan]

At 2:25 AM -0400 3/23/2010, PETER WARNER wrote:
Well, I took the Lombard (running 10.4.11) into an empty room 
tonight, and connected with Firefox 3.6, and Safari 4.whatever 
Without any problem on their ethernet.


Great!

I'll let you know tomorrow how it goes with the G4 book over 
Airport, but his is running 10.3 something... so I don't know. If 
it's OS related I may not be able to test properly, not having 
access to leopard or snow leopard books.


I would think that if it were the page, it would not have worked for me.


It's quite possible that they only do the "check" on clients 
connected via wireless.


From the hotel's POV... the issue is the liability of having 
untracked clients (non-guests) use their network.  So it makes sense 
that wired ether is NOT checked - after all, you have to be 
physically in an authorized location to get to that connection.


- Dan.
--
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth.

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Re: Mac's can't connect to WAP

[John Carmonne]

On Mar 23, 2010, at 6:44 AM, PM7500 wrote:

> Are they trying to connect using WPA encryption? I've been trying for
> months to get any of my Macs to connect to my Wi-Fi router using WPA
> and I can only connect with WEP.
I have never been able to connect to WPA Personal on any machine with an 
original AirPort or AirMac card. I have all systems and almost all machines 
Apple made. The g/n cards do connect. 
I think some folks think all Airport cards are equal, that's not the case. :-) 
You're peeing in the tide trying to connect to WPA Personal via  802.1 b cards.

John Carmonne
Yorba Linda USA






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Re: Mac's can't connect to WAP

[PM7500]

Are they trying to connect using WPA encryption? I've been trying for
months to get any of my Macs to connect to my Wi-Fi router using WPA
and I can only connect with WEP.

On Mar 21, 7:36 pm, peter  wrote:
> Hey,
> I was just told by the Hotel that inhabits 1/2 of one of my buildings
> here that their guests with Macs can't connect to the free wireless.
> They have been running into a brick wall with Time Warner Cable, and
> their guests are angry...  Apparently this has been going on for a
> while. Even though we own the building, we aren't supposed to touch
> time warner's stuff. I can tell you that the router is unbranded, and
> the WAPs are b/g D-Links, Windows users don't have a problem.
>
> Any ideas?

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Re: Mac's can't connect to WAP

[PETER WARNER]

On Mar 22, 2010, at 10:52 AM, Dan wrote:


To be clear here...  Macs have NO problems talking to 802.11 WAPs.


Yes, sorry that my title is a bit misleading there "some Macs Can't  
connect to THIS WAP, sometimes" Would be more appropriate. 
 


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Re: Mac's can't connect to WAP

[PETER WARNER]

On Mar 22, 2010, at 9:48 PM, void wrote:

After reading about what is happening it sounds like the browser  
isn't the problem but the OS.  Probably activeX or some other M$  
proprietary junk.  I'd bet that a lot of the windows users are  
running firefox or opera, all the smart ones are.


Well, I took the Lombard (running 10.4.11) into an empty room  
tonight, and connected with Firefox 3.6, and Safari 4.whatever  
Without any problem on their ethernet. I'll let you know tomorrow how  
it goes with the G4 book over Airport, but his is running 10.3  
something... so I don't know. If it's OS related I may not be able to  
test properly, not having access to leopard or snow leopard books.


I would think that if it were the page, it would not have worked for me.

This whole thing has reminded me that I want to get a new wifi card  
for my Lombard, or maybe a new laptop for the collection. (I can  
already feel my wife rolling her eyes)


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Re: Mac's can't connect to WAP

[void]

Bruce Johnson wrote:


On Mar 22, 2010, at 1:16 PM, John Musbach wrote:


Hmm, perhaps this hypothesis could be proven by trying to use this
troublesome wifi system with ie5 for mac on the troublesome mac(s).


Would not work. IE5 for Macs does not have anywhere near the same 
capabilities that IE6 and later did on PC's.



After reading about what is happening it sounds like the browser isn't 
the problem but the OS.  Probably activeX or some other M$ proprietary 
junk.  I'd bet that a lot of the windows users are running firefox or 
opera, all the smart ones are. 



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Re: Mac's can't connect to WAP

[peter]

On Mar 22, 6:55 pm, Bruce Johnson 
wrote:
> This is why *every* place like that has comment cards and contact  
> addresses. Carry some with you and encourage the paying customers to  
> make their opinions known, that it's when paying customers complain,  
> is when things get changed.
>
> Now if you'll get fired for THAT basic act of customer service, my  
> sympathies and I hope you find a new job soon, whereupon you can tell  
> us who this company is so I never patronize them, because if they do  
> that to their employees and contractors, they cut corners everywhere  
> else, too.

Luckily, I don't work for the Hotel, I work for the property owner
(or, technicaly an affiliated company that does Property Management
for the owner, which is also owned by the owner...) The hotel is our
Contractor. In any case, I think they would encourage this approach,
but finding an interem fix is something they would like more,
posssibly coupled with the comment card.

If the higher ups in my company get involved, they can say to the
Hotel, fix it or you're fired. Then they can get another Hospitality
chain to run our hotel. but that would be a huge PITA!

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Re: Mac's can't connect to WAP

[Bruce Johnson]

On Mar 22, 2010, at 3:30 PM, peter wrote:


 If I can't give them a
work around, I (and they) think I'm not doing the best I can for them.
Guests (and other tenants) don't make the distinctions between all of
the companies involved here, they see the guy with the tool belt, and
think I can fix anything.  All you I.T. guys aught to know the
feeling ;)




We do, and when I'm in the situation you're in I have no qualms about  
pointing people with problems to the appropriate place to complain.


"I'm sorry, I've tried. but I cannot fix this. Here's the phone number  
and email address of the owners to contact..we're just the hired hands."


It's not hard to honestly tell guests that a) you've tried, but cannot  
do anything about it, and b) it's not your decision, or your bosses  
decision, but the folks who actually own the place, without  
'badmouthing' the owners.


This is why *every* place like that has comment cards and contact  
addresses. Carry some with you and encourage the paying customers to  
make their opinions known, that it's when paying customers complain,  
is when things get changed.


Now if you'll get fired for THAT basic act of customer service, my  
sympathies and I hope you find a new job soon, whereupon you can tell  
us who this company is so I never patronize them, because if they do  
that to their employees and contractors, they cut corners everywhere  
else, too.


--
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


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Re: Mac's can't connect to WAP

[peter]

On Mar 22, 4:30 pm, Bruce Johnson 
wrote:
> On Mar 22, 2010, at 1:16 PM, John Musbach wrote:
>
> > Hmm, perhaps this hypothesis could be proven by trying to use this
> > troublesome wifi system with ie5 for mac on the troublesome mac(s).
>
> Would not work. IE5 for Macs does not have anywhere near the same  
> capabilities that IE6 and later did on PC's.
>
I have my Lombard with be tonight, and I'll be checking over ethernet
in one of the rooms, and one of the other Techs is bringing in a G4
book tommorow to check WiFi.

"You can TRY (and I don't think I did, I was just pissed off)
turning
on the developer menu in Safari, and setting the user agent as IE6,
but I don't think it'll work. "

I had planned to do this, either in Safari, or Firefox (or both)

"It might be interesting to see the source of the page they're
sending. "

Planned on that too.

"But if it doesn't, and they're not providing said free wifi to ALL
guests that want it...
that's a legal leg to beat them with.  That beating might best be a
PR thing - a major hotel chain that's discriminating against Apple...
Announcing that to the public will hurt their bottom line.  It would
be cheaper for them to fix the problem. "

Unfortunatley, the owner of My company has (through this building) a
vested interest in NOT bad mouthng the hotel chain publicly.  From a
guest perspective, this would be something to think about wherever you
go, these companies are hulking giants, and don't always realize that
they are driving people away through their actions, until you throw a
rock at their heads...  Certianly, higher ups here could exert
preasure, that does not mean it will change, and I hope here is a
solution that can be accomplished at the User level until then,( I am
realy hoping that User agent switching can work) because I am on the
ground, and have to see disgruntled guests. If I can't give them a
work around, I (and they) think I'm not doing the best I can for them.
Guests (and other tenants) don't make the distinctions between all of
the companies involved here, they see the guy with the tool belt, and
think I can fix anything.  All you I.T. guys aught to know the
feeling ;)

Thanks for all of the replies, and wish me luck.

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Re: Mac's can't connect to WAP

[Bruce Johnson]

On Mar 22, 2010, at 1:16 PM, John Musbach wrote:


Hmm, perhaps this hypothesis could be proven by trying to use this
troublesome wifi system with ie5 for mac on the troublesome mac(s).


Would not work. IE5 for Macs does not have anywhere near the same  
capabilities that IE6 and later did on PC's.


--
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


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Re: Mac's can't connect to WAP

[Bruce Johnson]

On Mar 22, 2010, at 12:58 PM, Clark Martin wrote:

Otherwise the places I've been to have either had a user agreement  
page or nothing.  I have gotten into the habit at such places of  
opening the browser and just pulling up any old page to let their  
system redirect it to their page.  At home, most of the time, my  
first move is to pull up e-mail but that just stalls if you have to  
go to the user agreement page first, as at hotels and such.



The UA has a similar open public, WiFi access, you have to open a web  
browser and agree to anything before it lets you on. Once on you can  
use Email, VPN, etc. This I can live with, especially if I'm told  
about it.


Several of the places we stayed at last summer (we took a three week  
road trip up to the pacific northwest and back) had such systems, and  
almost all of them were platform agnostic. Heck we stayed at a little  
hole-in-the-wall place in Boron, California a couple years ago, and  
they had working WiFi.




What I don't understand is why they hit you with the page everytime  
you connect.  They should be able to remember the MAC address and  
skip the agreement page after the first time.


Because this system doesn't maintain a state, only a 'connection  
allowed' status...in other words, it never does remember your MAC  
address only that since the beginning of this session you agreed.


Remembering MAC addresses gets into legally weedy territory. How long  
to remember them? Is this subpoena-able information? Someone could  
argue that no agreement on re-connecting means that the agreement is  
null and void, and they'd have a pretty solid argument.


--
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


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Re: Mac's can't connect to WAP

[John Musbach]

Hmm, perhaps this hypothesis could be proven by trying to use this
troublesome wifi system with ie5 for mac on the troublesome mac(s)...

On 3/22/10, Bruce Johnson  wrote:
>
> On Mar 22, 2010, at 12:58 PM, Clark Martin wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Because the system is asking for some response back from the Mac that
>>> isn't getting, because it's using IE-specific Javascript or
>>> something.
>>>
>>
>> Or it's just plain crappy software.
>
> If WinPC's work just fine and nothing else does, it's almost certainly
> an IE-only situation.
>
> --
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
>
> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
>
>
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Best Regards,

John Musbach

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Re: Mac's can't connect to WAP

[Bruce Johnson]

On Mar 22, 2010, at 12:58 PM, Clark Martin wrote:



Because the system is asking for some response back from the Mac that
isn't getting, because it's using IE-specific Javascript or  
something.




Or it's just plain crappy software.


If WinPC's work just fine and nothing else does, it's almost certainly  
an IE-only situation.


--
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


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Re: Mac's can't connect to WAP

[Clark Martin]

On 3/22/10 9:06 AM, Bruce Johnson wrote:


On Mar 21, 2010, at 9:58 PM, PETER WARNER wrote:



What would cause people to get bumped off afterwards?



Because the system is asking for some response back from the Mac that
isn't getting, because it's using IE-specific Javascript or something.



Or it's just plain crappy software.


On my vacation last year I only had trouble connecting in three places,
and in two of the three the staff were quite happy to work with me to
fix it (both involved simple reboots of the WAP) The third was the place
with this dumb software.

The staff there told me that other customers had complained as well.



If they advertise "Free WiFi" make sure you point that out and drop the 
phrase "False Advertising" into your conversation.



Early on in the WiFi era, at one resort we were at they would supply you 
with a PC Card WiFi adapter as a way to access the network.  It either 
had some custom firmware or they simply had the MAC addresses for those 
cards pre-entered into their system.  It didn't help me in the least on 
my iBook with no card slot.  I have no idea if it would have worked in a 
Mac with a card slot.  They have since gone to a basic user agreement 
page which does work with the Mac.


Once at a fast food place they wanted you to get a free member ID on 
their system.  But they e-mailed you the ID code.  So for most people 
you could use it the next time you were there.  I went online with my 
cell phone and got it that way.  The whole thing seemed very unstable. 
It might have been a windows centric thing or it might have just been a 
bad system.



Otherwise the places I've been to have either had a user agreement page 
or nothing.  I have gotten into the habit at such places of opening the 
browser and just pulling up any old page to let their system redirect it 
to their page.  At home, most of the time, my first move is to pull up 
e-mail but that just stalls if you have to go to the user agreement page 
first, as at hotels and such.


What I don't understand is why they hit you with the page everytime you 
connect.  They should be able to remember the MAC address and skip the 
agreement page after the first time.


--
Clark Martin
Redwood City, CA, USA
Macintosh / Internet Consulting

"I'm a designated driver on the Information Super Highway"

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Re: Mac's can't connect to WAP

[Bruce Johnson]

On Mar 21, 2010, at 9:58 PM, PETER WARNER wrote:


A little more detail:
-the only case I have confirmed info on was one from today, The  
guest had a macbook pro, and she tried both Safari 4, and Firefox.
-Apparently what happens is that guests get to the first screen  
(where they are supposed to agree to terms and conditions) and only  
a few graphics load, and the agree button is not usually one of them.
-Some people have gotten past this screen, only to be bumped off the  
internet 10-15 min. afterwards.
-I was not clear on this, but I think that the hotel manager said  
that the same thing happens when the Guests try hooking into the  
ethernet ports in their rooms.
-Meanwhile, every PC that comes through there has no problem, they  
had a dell and a macbook sitting right next to each other, and the  
dell was fine.


Could that agreement page be the cause?


Yes it could. I've run into that same &%...@$!@#$ software myself. Told  
the motel I was staying in that this was the last time I'd stay in  
that chain unless they fixed the software. It only partially works  
with FF, I'll bet anything you care to bet that the browser running on  
the Dell was IE. The software does the same thing on the ethernet  
because it's not actually connected to the WiFi, but manages internet  
access for all outgoing connections.



What would cause people to get bumped off afterwards?



Because the system is asking for some response back from the Mac that  
isn't getting, because it's using IE-specific Javascript or something.


Guests with Intel based macs can install WineBottler  and run IE 6, or do what I did and complain mightily, and tell the  
staff they'll never stay there again. Write a letter to the chain  
owners, too.


You can TRY (and I don't think I did, I was just pissed off) turning  
on the developer menu in Safari, and setting the user agent as IE6,  
but I don't think it'll work.


"Nobody ever got fired for specifying Microsoft" doesn't work when you  
depend on the happiness of your clients.


On my vacation last year I only had trouble connecting in three  
places, and in two of the three the staff were quite happy to work  
with me to fix it (both involved simple reboots of the WAP) The third  
was the place with this dumb software.


The staff there told me that other customers had complained as well.

--
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


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Re: Mac's can't connect to WAP

[Dan]

At 4:36 PM -0700 3/21/2010, peter wrote:

I was just told by the Hotel that inhabits 1/2 of one of my buildings
here that their guests with Macs can't connect to the free wireless.


To be clear here...  Macs have NO problems talking to 802.11 WAPs.

The problem is the subsequent authorization system they're using.

Normally...  You connect to a WAP using a passphrase, it assigns you 
an IP etc via DHCP, and life is good.


Services with their heads up their a** add an additional level of 
authorization.  Sometimes it's some sort of crap AUP that the user 
has to agree to, sometimes it's a pay portal.  For the most part, 
those work on any platform... but sometimes they won't work on Macs 
because they use an Active X control or some other MS proprietary 
gizmo.


At 12:58 AM -0400 3/22/2010, PETER WARNER wrote:
-the only case I have confirmed info on was one from today, The 
guest had a macbook pro, and she tried both Safari 4, and Firefox.
-Apparently what happens is that guests get to the first screen 
(where they are supposed to agree to terms and conditions) and only 
a few graphics load, and the agree button is not usually one of them.
-Some people have gotten past this screen, only to be bumped off the 
internet 10-15 min. afterwards.
-I was not clear on this, but I think that the hotel manager said 
that the same thing happens when the Guests try hooking into the 
ethernet ports in their rooms.
-Meanwhile, every PC that comes through there has no problem, they 
had a dell and a macbook sitting right next to each other, and the 
dell was fine.


It might be interesting to see the source of the page they're sending.

Unfortunately, our company owns the building, which includes a 
hotel, and we contract out to a hospitality company who gets the 
franchise rights from (Major hotel chain to be unnamed at this 
time), who make the decisions regarding their standards for this 
sort of thing.


Perhaps not unfortunate.  There are contracts between you and by 
extension them.  Somewhere there is a deal to provide the free wifi. 
If it says Windows only, you're screwed.  But if it doesn't, and 
they're not providing said free wifi to ALL guests that want it... 
that's a legal leg to beat them with.  That beating might best be a 
PR thing - a major hotel chain that's discriminating against Apple... 
Announcing that to the public will hurt their bottom line.  It would 
be cheaper for them to fix the problem.


- Dan.
--
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth.

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Re: Mac's can't connect to WAP

[PETER WARNER]

On Mar 21, 2010, at 11:37 PM, void wrote:

I'd suggest you inform whoever is supposed to be handling the  
system to fix it or you'll get a new provider.


Unfortunately, our company owns the building, which includes a hotel,  
and we contract out to a hospitality company who gets the franchise  
rights from (Major hotel chain to be unnamed at this time), who make  
the decisions regarding their standards for this sort of thing.  As a  
maintenance tech for the building owner, I have very little influence  
with the Hotel Corporation, nor do the hotel managers, except to put  
in their complaints whenever this comes up.


A little more detail:
-the only case I have confirmed info on was one from today, The guest  
had a macbook pro, and she tried both Safari 4, and Firefox.
-Apparently what happens is that guests get to the first screen  
(where they are supposed to agree to terms and conditions) and only a  
few graphics load, and the agree button is not usually one of them.
-Some people have gotten past this screen, only to be bumped off the  
internet 10-15 min. afterwards.
-I was not clear on this, but I think that the hotel manager said  
that the same thing happens when the Guests try hooking into the  
ethernet ports in their rooms.
-Meanwhile, every PC that comes through there has no problem, they  
had a dell and a macbook sitting right next to each other, and the  
dell was fine.


Could that agreement page be the cause? What would cause people to  
get bumped off afterwards?


They have only asked me because they knew I was a mac person, if  
there is a user level work around, that would be the best I can do at  
this point. As far as testing, I can only bring a Clamshell or  
Lombard in, and my USB wireless dongle is currently fried, so I could  
only test via ethernet. (maybe the hotel will have to buy me hex-core  
macbook pro... or whatever is coming out in the next revision ;)  
Purely for testing purposes of course!  no? at least a new wireless  
card/dongle? How about a bag of chips?)


FWIW, there is a Starbucks on the first floor, where I've seen every  
flavor of mac surfing on their WiFi, and the same goes for the  
secured networks in the various offices that take up the other 1/2 of  
the building...


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Re: Mac's can't connect to WAP

[void]

peter wrote:

Hey,
I was just told by the Hotel that inhabits 1/2 of one of my buildings
here that their guests with Macs can't connect to the free wireless.
They have been running into a brick wall with Time Warner Cable, and
their guests are angry...  Apparently this has been going on for a
while. Even though we own the building, we aren't supposed to touch
time warner's stuff. I can tell you that the router is unbranded, and
the WAPs are b/g D-Links, Windows users don't have a problem.

Any ideas?

  
I've known some ISP's to use some weird proprietary software.  I had a 
friend recently who left AT&T when his working Xubuntu setup d ied after 
a software upgrade at AT&T.  He tried everything and then they told him 
he'd have to use windows because their new software didn't support 
linux.  He got a new ISP instead.  I'd suggest you inform whoever is 
supposed to be handling the system to fix it or you'll get a new provider. 


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Mac's can't connect to WAP

[peter]

Hey,
I was just told by the Hotel that inhabits 1/2 of one of my buildings
here that their guests with Macs can't connect to the free wireless.
They have been running into a brick wall with Time Warner Cable, and
their guests are angry...  Apparently this has been going on for a
while. Even though we own the building, we aren't supposed to touch
time warner's stuff. I can tell you that the router is unbranded, and
the WAPs are b/g D-Links, Windows users don't have a problem.

Any ideas?

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those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs.
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