Re: plain text please
At 12:50 AM -0400 7/18/2010, Kevin Barth wrote: For those of you arguing that anyone's machine can display HTML and styled text, that's not the point. One of the posts that triggered this came through in huge blue letters on my system. In the past, some posters have sent HTML that displayed as fine print only a lawyer could love. The point of using plain text is to allow each subscriber control display parameters at his/her end as best suits them, rather than to force them to wade through annoying or unreadable fonts. Yes, there are always a few folks out there who, out of ignorance or misguided desire to express themselves have to use an oddball font. I'm confused. The two paragraphs above seem more like comment and response than your own reply. But there's no standard attribution or quoting to designate such. Is this how your idea of HTML-based emails would work? Seems it would be more productive to address those individuals directly and ask them to change specific aspects of their markup rather than insist on a blanket suppression of all markup by all users. Address those individuals directly... Ok... Kevin, are you volunteering to do all that - to contact each and every one of those users and hand-hold them thru the process? - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
I opt to receive all my Lists in Digest Format. If a post is in anything but plain text, it doesn't come through as a readable. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
On 7/17/10 10:18 PM, Dan wrote: [HTML stripped, as necessary] *snip* Remember that the purpose of these LEM mailing lists is TECHNICAL SUPPORT, not pretty animated icon cutsie email chatty please pass the nail polish. That's a good one Dan, I'll have to remember that one. I don't speak for the other techies on these lists... but wading thru HTML-based emails, just like TOP POSTED and UNTRIMMED messages, is a WASTE of my time. My time is very limited. I can view a couple of pretty emails, and get lost in all the formatting added by each replier, and botched along the way... Or I can quickly go thru whole threads of well-formatted plain text - and provide technical answers. Remember the part about the purpose of these lists As well as headache inducing, foaming at the mouth inducing, and so on. Frankly, if you're dying to send pretty messages then go find a service that's Forum based. Myself, I'll continue to hit cmd-D as soon as I open a gaudy POS HTML email on these groups. *nods* And I might add the space needed to store this 'stuff'. Dan touched on the subject with As for your mootness... when I'm on a metered connection, I'm paying per kilobyte. How 'bout if I bill you each time you send 1 KB of text in a 4 KB message?. Somewhere out there, the list is being archived and the mail servers are tossing the packets around to everyone else while storing it locally, at least temporary. That drive space could probably be used for more important stuff than HTML in email that bloats up the size of said email. Somewhere I had a printout of an email generated by one of the worst offenders out there, microsoft outlook. For about a line of actual text, the formatting code that send it out bloated it up to almost two pages of hard copy. Did you note that I said /about/ a line? It wasn't even a full 80 characters. And before anyone pulls out the 'drives are cheap' counterpoint, yes, they are... for /consumer grade/ drives. Ever priced a /real/ enterprise grade drive for a typical server? Lets take a quick look at the current price leader for servers... Dell. Searching the Dell website for poweredge hard drive, one of the first hits is a 300 GB 15,000 RPM SAS Hard Drive for Dell PowerEdge Servers. The low-low price for this (smallish drive by todays consumer level drive standards) has a Starting Price of $567.99 US Dollars, and the description for said drive does not show if it comes with the drive caddy needed to use it in a typical rack mount server (that's usually another 30 to 50 dollars more, on the low end). And 300 gig is a good sized drive for enterprise grade drives. Most of, oh, say Seagate's line of drives, max out at 600 gig, with 2 TB being the new top end. Hitachi and Western Digital appear to offer the larger sizes in one or two more lines than Seagate, but the overall capacity of the drives is about the same. Seagate's 2 TB enterprise hard drive (7200 RPM, 16 meg buffer, SAS interface) has a price, per google shopper, starting at $326, which appears to be the average price for a drive of that size (don't forget, I'm not including the price of the drive caddies that are needed to even use the things in a server). So no, storage is not exactly cheap for enterprise systems. It's cheaper than it used to be, but the cost to capacity ratio is no where near what it is for consumer level kit. Do the HTML proponents want to shell out the several hundred dollars for a new drive everytime mail storage space is expanded because 'most people' are using HTML based email clients and sending it out that way (and it happens more often than most people think, especially with the way 'net usage is increasing)? -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
Dan wrote: HTML email is often done by hardcoding the font sizes. That means your email will ALWAYS be unreadable to someone. HTML email ONLY looks good if the receiver has the SAME type of mail client you do. That means your email will ALWAYS be unreadable to someone. I'm curious, how does RTF fits into the discussion? Is Mail.app's RTF format really HTML? Tina -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
Yes it is Low End Mac as I have more than once pointed out in the past/ But even low enders move on. My 9600 can handle HTML quite. well. As for you on dial up I hope your city opts for whole access wifi soon. Any techies here complaining about being billed per kb or on dialup or slow connections etc need to expand their customer base. They just are not making enough to live on. Many folks here perhaps use a favorite mail client. And although we amy all want to abide by the rules do we always remember to switch to plain text when reading their LEM mail? It is too bad someone's eyes had to see large blue text. The nightmares will end if you try to let it go. But I would bet that at least on lists serving newer Macs, oh sat only 12 years old or so, about 98 % of the folks have little trouble with rich text. It is 2010, if someone sent a badly formatted email how about putting it down to that instead of pretending that HTML is the root of all evil. If I was on an Intel based list I would be extremely puzzeled by such quaint complaints. And No one has made this much fuss about it since about 8 years ago on the PCI list. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
At 12:13 AM -0600 7/18/2010, Tina K. wrote: Dan wrote: HTML email is often done by hardcoding the font sizes. That means your email will ALWAYS be unreadable to someone. HTML email ONLY looks good if the receiver has the SAME type of mail client you do. That means your email will ALWAYS be unreadable to someone. I'm curious, how does RTF fits into the discussion? Is Mail.app's RTF format really HTML? RTF (Rich Text Format) is HTML, but without some of the formal headers and such. Since it hasn't got all the headers, it's a bit more efficient -- but not by much. For an example, take a look at Kevin Barth's posts in this thread, in their raw format. Scroll past the various email headers, until you get to the x-html tag (I've added spaces here to prevent your email client from hiding it from you in this paragraph). Notice that the text of his email is not overly readable, as it completely depends upon the HTML interpretation to re-format it. Note also that because the body of his email is in HTML, the footer added by Google has also been reformatted/expanded to include HTML. To use one of his early posts in this thread as an example... The HTML version is 1556 bytes. The plain text version of that is only 1085 bytes. (Body+footer of the email, not including the standard headers). That's an expansion of about 145 % (doing the math off my fingers) on a SMALL email message alone. Figure a thousand emails per month in this mailing list, plus the other LEM lists times the number of people on those lists... That's megabytes of extra bandwidth that provides NO additional signal, just noise! Here are two small screenshots, showing Kevin's email in both forms: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/610326/Barth%20plain%20text.jpg http://dl.dropbox.com/u/610326/Barth%20rich%20text.jpg - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
At 12:38 PM + 7/18/2010, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote: As for you on dial up I hope your city opts for whole access wifi soon. Not likely, as there are big movements at the state levels to ban gov't owned/operated ISPs. The few towns that have rolled their own service really put the fear of god in the telco/cable companies! Any techies here complaining about being billed per kb or on dialup or slow connections etc need to expand their customer base. They just are not making enough to live on. Yes, always a good idea to belittle your reader's physical or financial situation. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
This is low end. Not belittling the low end nor those who struggle to eke out a living. But complaining about such a trivial thing as this and using bandwidth as a reason seems antiquated in 2010. As far as a physical situation I am no mind reader and have no idea of what you are talking about. If it is a sore point I apologize but I do not see my comments as touching on any physical situation. As to whether a techie should worry about HTML mail in terms of IP cost and the strain on computer systems if you are teching for other low enders be realistic, is the grief you are getting worth the grief you are getting? IOW is it paying off? -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
As for you on dial up I hope your city opts for whole access wifi soon. Note one important word in this sentence: city. Now, I've got high-speed Internet and can download all the rich-text HTML stupidly-formatted email I want to (although I still prefer plain text), but many of my friends live in areas where they don't have high-speed Internet. It's not because they're poor or because they're opting to have dial-up for the bargain; it's because that's your only option in some areas. The cable company hasn't extended the line out to a bunch of places in rural Appalachia, and it's really difficult to set up wireless Internet in the mountains. It's slowly being done by a local company that just got a huge grant, but even that is still fairly slow and hasn't added a good number of people out here. Satellite Internet is another option, but there you're paying per kilobyte, so Dan's argument holds true again. Cell phone-based Internet doesn't work out here either; there are entire towns that are dead zones. And I live in what some would consider the more civilized part of the region. So for all the people out here who have slow Internet because that's the only Internet there is, be considerate and send some plain text emails. Isaac -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Nanny note Re: plain text please
Folks, per the official Low End Mac Email List FAQs: http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml Don't send styled text or HTML files; only send plain text. Styled text may or may not come through as an attachment, but it is very difficult to read with a plain text email client. Google Groups will accept styled text and attachments, and this can result in garbled digests. On a similar vein: Never send attachments to the list. An attachment may contain a virus, may be in a format others cannot use, may not make it through some mail gateways, makes the message bigger, and could bog down both the list server and the mail server. • Many of today's email programs send styled text attachments by default. Please turn HTML and other styled text off when posting to our lists (see #3). (Note that PGP.sig files and v-cards are attachments.) • Instead of sending an attachment to the list, offer to email it directly to those who request it. • Low End Mac lists used to be explicitly set to reject any and all attachments. We can't do that with Google Groups. So please abide by these rules. Not following them may result in your being placed on moderated status or your messages not getting through. Len Gerstel List Nanny -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
At 1:47 PM + 7/18/2010, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote: As to whether a techie should worry about HTML mail in terms of IP cost and the strain on computer systems if you are teching for other low enders be realistic, is the grief you are getting worth the grief you are getting? IOW is it paying off? Paying off... well, let's see... A few seconds of the poster's time vs: Several minutes of my time and technical expertise. The time of the 1700+ recipients to download the 145% larger messages. The time of the 1700+ recipients to wade thru the noise to find the signal. The of the recipients that are on metered services. Sorry, this is just a no-brainer to me. Wading thru badly formatted messages takes ALL the fun out of helping and learning on lists like this. And making this type of change to so large an audience, that would have *financial impact* on some of them is unconscionable -- especially when the point of doing so is to facilitate poster laziness. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
The list rules are very clear. If you don't like it or don't want to follow this rules then get off the list. Peter M. Sent from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Wallace Adrian D'Alessio fluxstrin...@gmail.com Sender: g3-5-list@googlegroups.com Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 14:34:11 To: g3-5-list@googlegroups.com Reply-To: g3-5-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: plain text please Metered service? Who has metered service? The UK? If that is the only thing available that is what you go with but then why bother at all. A phone call would be preferable. And hopefully the post office is still around. You still think anyone who has a machine new enough to be on the G list notices a longer load time for an HTML email? No one reads the posts unless they are interested in the subject presented in the subject line. Forcing everyone to adhere to a standard which is so out of date it is not at all funny and making a huge fuss about it while hiding behind helpfulness is a tyranny of the passive aggressive sort. Do you SERIOUSLY think the G Listers actually really care if a post shows up in rich text? Maybe you have not noticed but LEM seems to be a sinking ship. Many lists here I subscribe to have not had a post for weeks or months. Anyone who thinks HTML mail is too much for their G Mac needs to read the manual. I don't care what connection they have. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
On Jul 18, 2010, at 10:34 AM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote: Metered service? Who has metered service? The UK? If that is the only thing available that is what you go with but then why bother at all. A phone call would be preferable. And hopefully the post office is still around. Plenty of people hoping for faster speeds than dial up that have opted for satellite Internet have metered service. And for people in those rural areas, getting to the post office could take 30 minutes to an hour. And that's not because of city traffic. Isaac -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote: Metered service? Who has metered service? The UK? If that is the only thing available that is what you go with but then why bother at all. A phone call would be preferable. And hopefully the post office is still around. Most of us in the UK are on ADSL or Cable (available in metropolitan areas). Only a relatively few rural areas still have no option but dial-up, although that should change over the next 2 - 5 years. Speaking as a graphic designer, I keep graphics for commercial use - where they have a valid purpose - and use plain text for communication. Too much eye-candy, and recipients notice the messenger and not the message. Just my pennyworth, Ted -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
Dan wrote: Remember that the purpose of these LEM mailing lists is TECHNICAL SUPPORT, not pretty animated icon cutsie email chatty please pass the nail polish. I don't speak for the other techies on these lists... but wading thru HTML-based emails, just like TOP POSTED and UNTRIMMED messages, is a WASTE of my time. My time is very limited. I can view a couple of pretty emails, and get lost in all the formatting added by each replier, and botched along the way... Or I can quickly go thru whole threads of well-formatted plain text - and provide technical answers. Remember the part about the purpose of these lists Frankly, if you're dying to send pretty messages then go find a service that's Forum based. Myself, I'll continue to hit cmd-D as soon as I open a gaudy POS HTML email on these groups. I agree with Dan. I do not provide nearly as much help as he does, but if I must wade through html garbage, I will not even bother to read the list any more. What does HTML really gain anyone in email? As far as I can tell it is purposeless. Plain text is perfectly suited to email. There is absolutely zero reason html should even be supported in emails except the stupidity of whichever email client programmer first added it in a fit of moronic feature creep. And you are much more secure if you refuse to interpret html in email messages. My clients will never be allowed to interpret html. Some have called plain text outmoded. I say rather it was field tested. Folks on the internet spent a couple of decades establishing that well edited quoted text, bottom posting and plain text work most efficiently to facilitate clear communications. Some times old stuff is also stuff that was actually wisely established and it is old because it works really really well. Jeff Walther -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
Personally, I don't give a damn. What is annoying is over 100 messages debating it eating my time and bandwidth. Mikeal Palulis Kallisti Medias On Jul 18, 2010, at 11:36 AM, t...@io.com t...@io.com wrote: Dan wrote: Remember that the purpose of these LEM mailing lists is TECHNICAL SUPPORT, not pretty animated icon cutsie email chatty please pass the nail polish. I don't speak for the other techies on these lists... but wading thru HTML-based emails, just like TOP POSTED and UNTRIMMED messages, is a WASTE of my time. My time is very limited. I can view a couple of pretty emails, and get lost in all the formatting added by each replier, and botched along the way... Or I can quickly go thru whole threads of well-formatted plain text - and provide technical answers. Remember the part about the purpose of these lists Frankly, if you're dying to send pretty messages then go find a service that's Forum based. Myself, I'll continue to hit cmd-D as soon as I open a gaudy POS HTML email on these groups. I agree with Dan. I do not provide nearly as much help as he does, but if I must wade through html garbage, I will not even bother to read the list any more. What does HTML really gain anyone in email? As far as I can tell it is purposeless. Plain text is perfectly suited to email. There is absolutely zero reason html should even be supported in emails except the stupidity of whichever email client programmer first added it in a fit of moronic feature creep. And you are much more secure if you refuse to interpret html in email messages. My clients will never be allowed to interpret html. Some have called plain text outmoded. I say rather it was field tested. Folks on the internet spent a couple of decades establishing that well edited quoted text, bottom posting and plain text work most efficiently to facilitate clear communications. Some times old stuff is also stuff that was actually wisely established and it is old because it works really really well. Jeff Walther -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
At 11:52 AM -0400 7/18/2010, Nikki Wraith wrote: What is annoying is over 100 messages debating it eating my time and bandwidth. 43 messages, not 100. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please ... 44, do we have 50?
On Jul 18, 2010, at 11:54 AM, Dan wrote: At 11:52 AM -0400 7/18/2010, Nikki Wraith wrote: What is annoying is over 100 messages debating it eating my time and bandwidth. 43 messages, not 100. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list List Nanny would you stop all this? -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
On 7/17/10 3:10 PM, Kevin Barth godai@gmail.com wrote: With due respect, seems to me that a steadfast insistence on plain text is dated and unrealistic. This is not up for debate. It has to due with the bandwidth that google allows our group etc. Plain text or leave the list. Sorry. Kyle Hansen LEM List Manager --- The first time Microsoft produces something that doesn't suck will be when they start making vacuum cleaners --- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
On 7/17/10 9:50 PM, Kevin Barth godai@gmail.com wrote: The fact that things have always been done this way has never been a particularly compelling argument against change. To quite the Brady Bunch, When it's time to change, then it's time to change. Listen, the rule is there for a reason. To make the list readable for everyone. If one insists on using HTML it may not go through and you may get moderated. I assure you that there are some people on this list on dial up. I can also assure you that there are people using older than G3 machines on this list. The reason being is that some of the lesser populated lists have had members migrate here for answers. It is really out of consideration for others. If anyone has a problem with this policy then take it up with Dan Knight the list owner. Don¹t start a war on the list itself. THIS THREAD IS DEAD. FURTHER POSTS ON THIS SUBJECT MAY RESULT IN A TEMPORARY BAN FROM THE LIST. Let¹s get back to talking Mac now and not text formats. Kyle Hansen LEM List Manager --- The first time Microsoft produces something that doesn't suck will be when they start making vacuum cleaners --- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please ... 44, do we have 50?
On 7/18/10 9:33 AM, Bill Connelly billycarm...@verizon.net wrote: List Nanny would you stop all this? I just did. I will do it again. THIS THREAD IS DEAD. DO NOT POST ON THIS TOPIC ANYMORE. FURTHER POSTS ON THIS TOPIC MAY RESULT IN A TEMPORARY BAN FROM THE LIST. This was the last thing I wanted to wake up to and read. Now back to the Tour de France on Tivo with a Mimosa in hand and my laptop open reading this list. --- The first time Microsoft produces something that doesn't suck will be when they start making vacuum cleaners --- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2822.html is the controlling document for the basics of internet email. (Some would claim that the real RTF is 822 which is formally approved and not still standards track. It's worth a read. Its also worth while to poke around on that site for general education. RFC's (Requests for Comments) are the way the internet is supposed to work. http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2045.html Is the starting point for MIME extensions to email. Discussion of Content-Transfer-encoding is discussed there. It's a starting point for the proper inclusion of type HTML in a multipart mail message. It's widely ignored assuming that the client can look for an html tag in the body of a message. At 00:50 -0400 7/18/10, Kevin Barth wrote: OK. so now it seems you're arguing that everybody should limit themselves to plaintext because you can't read a proportional font? Or at least that you find a proportional font harder to read than a non-proportional one? At 22:34 -0500 7/17/10, James Therrault wrote: All plain text does is default to a non-proportiona font family such as courier. IOW, an I takes up the same space as a W etc. Plain text has absolutely noting to do with font or its character width and kerning. The reader, or his mail client, gets to choose it. At 01:18 -0400 7/18/10, Dan wrote: First of all, realize that rich text is a form of HTML. At 09:08 -0400 7/18/10, Dan wrote: RTF (Rich Text Format) is HTML, but without some of the formal headers and such. Since it hasn't got all the headers, it's a bit more efficient -- but not by much. http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1563.html describes enriched text. It was once called rich text but that got changed because of confusion with RTF (rich text format) which originated with Microsoft and was first used on Apple products as part of the BASIC language. As far as I know nobody has ever used RTF in the body of an email. It certainly is NOT HTML in any sense of the acronym. Apple, in OS neXt, uses a form of RTF for the likes of TextEdit.app. It's not compatible with the most current release, by Microsoft, of its RTF standard. (And by the way, you need to be a licensed developer to have access to that. I can't read my pirated copy in Word 5.1 or in TextEdit.). The last email that I received in enriched text probably came over arpanet.. From RFC 1563: This document defines one particular type of MIME data, the text/enriched type, a refinement of the text/richtext type defined in RFC 1341. The syntax of text/enriched is very simple. It represents text in a single character set -- US-ASCII by default, although a different character set can be specified by the use of the charset parameter. (The semantics of text/enriched in non-ASCII character sets are discussed later in this document.) At 00:13 -0600 7/18/10, Tina K. wrote: I'm curious, how does RTF fits into the discussion? Is Mail.app's RTF format really HTML? Mail.app will NOT place either Apple's RTF or Microsoft's RTF into the body of a mail message. As an attachment it would be possible. Like dragging the icon of a raw TextEdit file into the attachment box of a mail client. Mail.app defaults to using HTML for all messages but it can be told not to do that. If it calls HTML RTF it ought to be reported as a bug. There was once a UNIX tool called demime that would convert HTML to plain text. Mailing lists made extensive use of it for things like creating digests that work. I donno what it's current status is but I just might try it on stuff from this list. I'll have to move off this 8500 first. -- -- From the U S of A, the only socialist country that refuses to admit it. -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
On 7/18/10 12:51 PM, Doug McNutt dougl...@macnauchtan.com wrote: http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2822.html is the controlling document for the basics of internet email. (Some would claim that the real RTF is 822 which is formally approved and not still standards track. It's worth a read. Its also worth while to poke around on that site for general education. RFC's (Requests for Comments) are the way the internet is supposed to work. I killed this thread hours ago. DO NOT post on the subject again please. Kyle Hansen LEM List Manager --- The first time Microsoft produces something that doesn't suck will be when they start making vacuum cleaners --- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
On Jul 18, 2010, at 1:35 PM, Kyle Hansen wrote: On 7/17/10 3:10 PM, Kevin Barth godai@gmail.com wrote: With due respect, seems to me that a steadfast insistence on plain text is dated and unrealistic. This is not up for debate. It has to due with the bandwidth that google allows our group etc. Plain text or leave the list. Sorry. Kyle Hansen LEM List Manager You don't appear to be using plain text, (at least in my reader). sigh JT TODAY: iPads for $23.78? Report: Apple iPads are being auctioned for an incredible 83% off! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/4c43b9c22c011333f89st05duc -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
Sorry Kris if I offended you/the list... I didn't mean to. I know this is a stupid question, but honestly I don't know the answer. Q: what is plain text? and how do I make sure that I'm always using it? I thought it was simply in a font everybody had (helvetica) and that there was/ is no pictures? evidently that apple is a picture? Jeff On Jul 17, 2010, at 2:00 PM, Kris Tilford wrote: Recent monster font postings: Sent from my Power Mac G4 Sawtooth woohoo! Please, let's use plain text postings. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
I think the apple is plain text. It shows up fine in Kris' (assumedly) plain test reply. On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 5:13 PM, Jeffrey Engle macgu...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry Kris if I offended you/the list... I didn't mean to. I know this is a stupid question, but honestly I don't know the answer. Q: what is plain text? and how do I make sure that I'm always using it? I thought it was simply in a font everybody had (helvetica) and that there was/is no pictures? evidently that apple is a picture? Jeff On Jul 17, 2010, at 2:00 PM, Kris Tilford wrote: Recent monster font postings: Sent from my Power Mac G4 Sawtooth woohoo! Please, let's use plain text postings. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
On Jul 17, 2010, at 4:13 PM, Jeffrey Engle wrote: Q: what is plain text? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_text and how do I make sure that I'm always using it? Mail.appPreferencesComposingComposing:Message Format:Plain Text or use MenuFormatMake Plain Text to change a single email format from the preference. This is also a keyboard command Shift-Cmd-T which is a toggle between plain text rich text for the open email document. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
With due respect, seems to me that a steadfast insistence on plain text is dated and unrealistic. Most people today are using email clients, either online or localized, that are capable of accurately reproducing emails encoded with fairly complex HTML markup. It's fast becoming the norm. PINE and ELM were lovely little apps in their day, but they're pretty well anachronistic now. WYSIWYG editors are embedded in everything these days. Insisting that people not use them to their full capabilities seems pretty silly. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
At 17:27 -0400 7/17/10, Chance Reecher wrote: Q: what is plain text? and how do I make sure that I'm always using it? I thought it was simply in a font everybody had (helvetica) and that there was/is no pictures? evidently that apple is a picture? Jeff It's getting more and more difficult to send plain text to us users of ASCII with a bit of ASCII extended. The Apple mail client will do it but it's hard to figure out how. Eudora does it well but is no longer supported Gmail really likes HTML which is the real offender. An older form of enriched text is obsolete and truly dead. Plain text allows the reader and the reader only to set his font. Attachments are OK but inserted graphics are not. On a list attachments ore usually taboo anyway. Look at the source of displayed e-mail for the Content-Type: header to see if you got it right.. For Kris Tilford it's this. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Some would say that UTF-8 is NOT plain text. It does mean that there are no high ASCII characters above 127 (10) which would include the black apple. If you don't do UTF-8 with your client you'll see three funny characters which some client translated the black appl into. In UTF-8 any character above 127 is treated as a flag that says you need to include the previous two characters in a bit shifting way that yields a 16 or 24 bit extended character. format=flowed is a mechanism for sending long lines meaning greater than 80 characters. It was once useful for very slow communications mostly over telephone connections. Teletype was truly limited to 80 character buffers. Today essentially all SNTP and POP servers handle 1024 character lines which will be wrapped to window width be the receiving client. format flowed can really muck up a URL that runs over a line end. Apple mail uses a delsp=yes extension to format-flowed which is not handled by Eudora and probably other clients found on old Apples. It's a mess when URL's acquire spaces in transmission. From Jeff we got: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Kris' second posting used this: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes The ISO encoding applies to characters above 127 and that one would surely not have a dark apple in it. The dark apple probably requires an Apple font to be viewed. Chicago perhaps. JUST DON'T SEND HTML! Well, there are reasons for it but rarely, if at all, on a mailing list that's for users of older machines. -- -- A fair tax is one that you pay but I don't -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
I hate to be that guy, but might I ask why we're being asked to cling to a 1970's server technology in the 2010s? HTML and Rich Text emails have pretty well been the standard since at least the late 90s. Even freebie email programs such as Yahoo and Hotmail have been HTML based for years. Is there some sort of reason that HTML and Rich Text are suddenly taboo? Seems to me that Mail.app defaults to Rich Text, which I have to say, has been working just fine for me (and everyone else in my family, company, friend circles, et al...) for years. On Jul 17, 2010, at 4:58 PM, Kris Tilford wrote: On Jul 17, 2010, at 4:13 PM, Jeffrey Engle wrote: Q: what is plain text? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_text and how do I make sure that I'm always using it? Mail.appPreferencesComposingComposing:Message Format:Plain Text or use MenuFormatMake Plain Text to change a single email format from the preference. This is also a keyboard command Shift-Cmd-T which is a toggle between plain text rich text for the open email document. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
Here is a bigger version of the Monster text Apple logo. No, it's not a picture, it's just a bigger Apple logo. Sent from my Power Mac G4 Sawtooth -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
On 17 Jul 2010, at 14:27:05 PDT, Chance Reecher wrote: I think the apple is plain text. It shows up fine in Kris' (assumedly) plain test reply. --- Well, Plain Text traditionally refers to Low ASCII characters and numbers (0-127). Anything else is likely to be non-standard and can produce unpredictable results on the receiving end of an email (or any other internet transmitted file for that matter). Ken -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
JUST DON'T SEND HTML! Well, there are reasons for it but rarely, if at all, on a mailing list that's for users of older machines. Just because we're all users of older machines doesn't mean we use those machines exclusively to read emails. And even if some of us do, so what? My G3 is very capable of reproducing email with markup. Isn't one of the purposes of this list to show how even older Apple machines are capable of modern tasks? -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
Well, Plain Text traditionally refers to Low ASCII characters and numbers (0-127). Anything else is likely to be non-standard and can produce unpredictable results on the receiving end of an email (or any other internet transmitted file for that matter). Ken The aim at the LCD argument. I prefer a somewhat looser (and to my mind, more practical) standard. What can the average user's machine reasonably be expected to understand? Sure, somebody may be reading this email on an aging ][+ or text-only Linux client. But this list isn't geared toward ][+ users or users of campus mainframes. If i had to assume anything, it would be that people on this list are using at least something as up-to-date as a G3 to read their email. And as noted, those machines are quite capable of decoding markup. Even if specific users choose not to do so. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
On Jul 17, 2010, at 5:22 PM, Kevin Barth wrote: JUST DON'T SEND HTML! Well, there are reasons for it but rarely, if at all, on a mailing list that's for users of older machines. Just because we're all users of older machines doesn't mean we use those machines exclusively to read emails. And even if some of us do, so what? My G3 is very capable of reproducing email with markup. Isn't one of the purposes of this list to show how even older Apple machines are capable of modern tasks? Add to that: Since this is the G3-5 List, aren't any machines supported by this list capable of running OSX and/or Linux of some flavor? Add to the just given point, 10.2.8 (supported on all versions of the G3) and later all contain mail.app which natively reads rich text and html messages anyway? Steadfastly demanding people use plain-text only for email is like demanding that Apple still provide system updates for OS9 in BinHex format. It's 2010, soon to be 2011. Neither one is going to happen. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
At 5:16 PM -0500 7/17/10, Eric Herbert wrote: ,,, reason that HTML and Rich Text are suddenly taboo? Nothing sudden about it. List rules for LEM lists have always required it http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml, try reading them. For those of you arguing that anyone's machine can display HTML and styled text, that's not the point. One of the posts that triggered this came through in huge blue letters on my system. In the past, some posters have sent HTML that displayed as fine print only a lawyer could love. The point of using plain text is to allow each subscriber control display parameters at his/her end as best suits them, rather than to force them to wade through annoying or unreadable fonts. Try being considerate of others, it works wonders. Bob -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
On Jul 17, 2010, at 4:38 PM, Bob Whiton wrote: Try being considerate of others, it works wonders. point taken. Jeff (the guy that sent those nasty blue letters) -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
An antiquated rule. Still on the books in Indiana If it cannot be displayed on a Apple II we don't want is here. That's for sure. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
At 00:15 + 7/18/10, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote: An antiquated rule. Still on the books in Indiana If it cannot be displayed on a Apple II we don't want is here. That's for sure. Since 1 July 2010 these are the content types on this list. 447 text/plain 18 text/html 5 multipart/mixed 89 multipart/alternative The multipart options are a method of sending both plain text and html as separate parts of the message. They also can contain an attachment as a part that can be referred to, using an html anchor, in the middle of some text - a graph for instance. Clients can choose which parts to display. -- -- In Christianity, man can have only one wife. This is known as monotony. -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
Some people on this list do not have a 10 Megabit connection. Some are still on dial-up. Please be considerate of them. Eric Herbert wrote: I hate to be that guy, but might I ask why we're being asked to cling to a 1970's server technology in the 2010s? HTML and Rich Text emails have pretty well been the standard since at least the late 90s. Even freebie email programs such as Yahoo and Hotmail have been HTML based for years. Is there some sort of reason that HTML and Rich Text are suddenly taboo? Seems to me that Mail.app defaults to Rich Text, which I have to say, has been working just fine for me (and everyone else in my family, company, friend circles, et al...) for years. On Jul 17, 2010, at 4:58 PM, Kris Tilford wrote: On Jul 17, 2010, at 4:13 PM, Jeffrey Engle wrote: Q: what is plain text? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_text and how do I make sure that I'm always using it? Mail.appPreferencesComposingComposing:Message Format:Plain Text or use MenuFormatMake Plain Text to change a single email format from the preference. This is also a keyboard command Shift-Cmd-T which is a toggle between plain text rich text for the open email document. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
On Jul 17, 2010, at 6:38 PM, Bob Whiton wrote: At 5:16 PM -0500 7/17/10, Eric Herbert wrote: ,,, reason that HTML and Rich Text are suddenly taboo? Nothing sudden about it. List rules for LEM lists have always required it http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml, try reading them. For those of you arguing that anyone's machine can display HTML and styled text, that's not the point. One of the posts that triggered this came through in huge blue letters on my system. In the past, some posters have sent HTML that displayed as fine print only a lawyer could love. The point of using plain text is to allow each subscriber control display parameters at his/her end as best suits them, rather than to force them to wade through annoying or unreadable fonts. Try being considerate of others, it works wonders. One of the reasons for using plain text is conservation of bandwidth as some of us are still on dial up, spit. I believe that is also the reason for the tradition of doing so going all the way back to... All plain text does is default to a non-proportiona font family such as courier. IOW, an I takes up the same space as a W etc. Just makes things run faster for those of us still stuck in the slow lane.. JT Penny Stock Jumping 2000% Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/4c4275154c0cb313940st05vuc -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
For those of you arguing that anyone's machine can display HTML and styled text, that's not the point. One of the posts that triggered this came through in huge blue letters on my system. In the past, some posters have sent HTML that displayed as fine print only a lawyer could love. The point of using plain text is to allow each subscriber control display parameters at his/her end as best suits them, rather than to force them to wade through annoying or unreadable fonts. Yes, there are always a few folks out there who, out of ignorance or misguided desire to express themselves have to use an oddball font. Seems it would be more productive to address those individuals directly and ask them to change specific aspects of their markup rather than insist on a blanket suppression of all markup by all users. One of the reasons for using plain text is conservation of bandwidth as some of us are still on dial up, spit. I'm on a slow connection myself. Often not much faster than dialup. This argument makes no sense. How many more characters must be downloaded to display a message that has HTML encoding than one that is plaintext? Even if we really stretch and say several thousand, that's still a fraction of a second's difference at typical dialup speeds. Your email client probably wastes more time handshaking and authenticating with the server. Connection speed is irrelevant to the argument. I believe that is also the reason for the tradition of doing so going all the way back to... The fact that things have always been done this way has never been a particularly compelling argument against change. To quite the Brady Bunch, When it's time to change, then it's time to change. All plain text does is default to a non-proportiona font family such as courier. IOW, an I takes up the same space as a W etc. Just makes things run faster for those of us still stuck in the slow lane.. OK. so now it seems you're arguing that everybody should limit themselves to plaintext because you can't read a proportional font? Or at least that you find a proportional font harder to read than a non-proportional one? This might actually be a reasonable argument. IF it is shared by a significant number of the other members on the list. Personally, I have no problem reading proportional fonts, and I prefer them for everything except source code and other applications where spacing and column position are significant. I actually find non-proportional fonts annoying for free text like emails and ebooks. Personal preference, and I don't think mine has any more right to be enforced than yours does. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
[HTML stripped, as necessary] At 2:13 PM -0700 7/17/2010, Jeffrey Engle wrote: evidently that apple is a picture? The Apple icon is present in SOME fonts, but not all. You cannot guarantee such dingbats exist in the font the recipient is using. The sender should consider that some emails look really stupid when displayed in other fonts because of such special character use. At 6:10 PM -0400 7/17/2010, Kevin Barth wrote: Most people today are using email clients, either online or localized, that are capable of accurately reproducing emails encoded with fairly complex HTML markup. ROFLMAO At 5:16 PM -0500 7/17/2010, Eric Herbert wrote: I hate to be that guy, but might I ask why we're being asked to cling to a 1970's server technology in the 2010s? HTML and Rich Text emails have pretty well been the standard since at least the late 90s. Even freebie email programs such as Yahoo and Hotmail have been HTML based for years. Is there some sort of reason that HTML and Rich Text are suddenly taboo? Seems to me that Mail.app defaults to Rich Text, which I have to say, has been working just fine for me (and everyone else in my family, company, friend circles, et al...) for years. First of all, realize that rich text is a form of HTML. Consider Your Audience. HTML email is often done by hardcoding the font sizes. That means your email will ALWAYS be unreadable to someone. HTML email ONLY looks good if the receiver has the SAME type of mail client you do. That means your email will ALWAYS be unreadable to someone. Notice please the name of the site: LOW End Mac. LOW End. That means your email needs to be readable by BOTH the people with the high-speed internet connections and the FAST computers as well as the dial-up / pay per KB types and older SLOWER computers. Remember that the purpose of these LEM mailing lists is TECHNICAL SUPPORT, not pretty animated icon cutsie email chatty please pass the nail polish. I don't speak for the other techies on these lists... but wading thru HTML-based emails, just like TOP POSTED and UNTRIMMED messages, is a WASTE of my time. My time is very limited. I can view a couple of pretty emails, and get lost in all the formatting added by each replier, and botched along the way... Or I can quickly go thru whole threads of well-formatted plain text - and provide technical answers. Remember the part about the purpose of these lists Frankly, if you're dying to send pretty messages then go find a service that's Forum based. Myself, I'll continue to hit cmd-D as soon as I open a gaudy POS HTML email on these groups. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: plain text please
At 12:53 AM -0400 7/18/2010, Kevin Barth wrote: On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Dennis Myhand wrote: Some people on this list do not have a 10 Megabit connection. Some are still on dial-up. Please be considerate of them. Moot point. Markup is not a strain on connection speed, as multiple users have already pointed out. Attachments are. And I don't think anybody is arguing that the restrictions against attachments should be changed. Just the irrational and obsolete insistence on plaintext. Wow. Check out the quoting above - yea, that's what HTML-based gets you. So much for the email standards. As for your mootness... when I'm on a metered connection, I'm paying per kilobyte. How 'bout if I bill you each time you send 1 KB of text in a 4 KB message? Dennis' point is NOT moot. BE CONSIDERATE or you will end up with NO AUDIENCE. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
