Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
Hi Decota. Firstly, remember that the dropdown box on audiogames.net is not the be all and end all of site searching, and also that the disclaimer statement at the top of the site clearly states access as a primary motivation. Both of these were set by Richard and sander 10 years ago when the site began, and while it is true I cannot change them, it is equally true that I think people do forget the extra functions of the site simply because they just! use that dropdown. i don't blame people for this, for a screen reader user it makes sense, but the same is not true of everyone, and the amount of ties I get asked something like are there any statratogy games available when all a person has to do is search the archive with the right filter is unbelieveable. As regards mainstream games such as mass effect 2, while I have no problem people discussing these in the forum, I do not want to make them a primary feature of the site for two principle reasons. firstly is the access reason which I explain in the db guidelines, namely that if a game is only playable with considderable amounts of work, it is not accessible since the effort involved is not equalized. After all, a person could in theory play any sighted game by just learning the right combination of key presses if they took a long enough time, but this does not mean all games are accessible since such a procedure would be ridiculous. the second point, is that we are trying to get mainstream developers interested in audio game developement. If however we say oh, but blind people can play mass effect 2 the response is likely to be oh, well we've already done game access s so we don't need to do anything! this has certainly happened before, if a company can make lip service and a getout to something they will, and the last thing we want is the next beatemup with textual menues being promoted as an accessible game to the blind because some people have played beatemups without sound in the past by learning menues, reading faqs etc. Finally, as I said earlier, I do not believe myself that the separation of audio games from text adventures is quite that simple. Would you say for instance that the games from 7-128 are not true audio games because they use sapi? or lone wolf? and if a game with sapi and sound effects counts, why not something like smugglers, which has after all recieved massive updates. As an interesting fact, I have actually on several occasions played gamebooks and if games with a friend of mine who is a huge fan of the genre, (he has read me printed gamebooks in the past). These plays are cooperative, I read with supernova, we both make decisions. We are both listening to the audio (my friend says he finds it easier than reading the screen), so is this not an audio game? while I do appreciate your points decota, I just think your separation of catagories is not really workable enough, and this from the perspective of someone who has written up entries and played games with any amount of background audio or none. Myself, i think the way forward isn't to alter audiogames.net or our purpose, but to go out into the indi developement community and spread news about audio games elsewhere, so that just as indexes that list graphical games could also list audio ones. this already happens with games like core exiles and puppet nightmares listed on brouser indexes, but what we need is for people like Gma to be listed elsehwere too, so that people will see games like shades not as games for the blind but as games of the same genre that happen to use audio, whether that audio comes from sapi, screen reading software or voice acting. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
In my opinion, it's kind of a bs response to say that screen readers make audiogames. Urban dead uses only the screen reader to give info. It's not an audiogame. It's a game played with a screen reader. I mean, I just don't understand why it's so important to call them audiogames, even though you use a screen reader to play them. You use your screen reader to use Windows, but it's not an audio operating system. I've basically lost the debate, mostly because there was literally no chance to change things in this reguard, and I do think that our developers should get their games out there in a wider range of gamer venues. I just think a line should be drawn. If the primary mechanic for playing a game is audio, that game should be called an audiogame. Let me be more specific: If most of the game's interface is self-generated audio, that game is an audiogame, not a videogame. If most of the game's interface is textual, that game is a textual game. If most of the game's interface is visual, that game is a videogame. Just because a game can make use of a screen reader, which produces audio, it isn't an audiogame. You could play the same game with a braille display, which would make it a tactile game. Audiogames.net could change. Maybe a mission statement written a decade ago is no longer appropriate and no longer serves us in this different day and age. Ten years may not seem all that long to some of us, but ten years has seen developments like the iPhone, Android, similar smartphone platforms which have radically changed our perceptions on gaming. It has seen the advent of Steam and Origin, immense game libraries available to the sighted world and unavailable to us in any form. It has seen the development of enormously powerful gaming consoles and computers which put anything we had ten years ago to shame. Maybe, just maybe, since the sighted world is interested more in game audio than ever before, we should be interested in giving themcredit where credit is due and helping them continue to develop. The problem we've found is that we want a current game to be accessible. Why can't I play the sims! The answer is to make future games accessible. Maybe a few big companies wouldn't try because we give them credit for some accessibility innately included in the game, but maybe they would find a way to incorporate that into their operating procedure. In my opinion, it's hypocritical to defend putting a text adventure on a game audio site because the developer has chosen to support screen readers, but to avidly deny putting up a major game, even though there are accessible features in an inaccessible game, which are audio based. I wish, sincerely, that I was invited to talk, with the support of an organization or group, to these developers, because I am sorely saddened by the way they are often approached by our community. This is outside the current topic in this thread, which is outside the original idea of the thread, but it's something that I feel compelled to say. We ask that a game title we see on shelves be expanded to include accessibility, in most cases. In none of those cases will we be granted our request, by any developer. Devs, keep in mind adding in an enormous change to interface on a whim. It isn't going to happen. Then, let's consider what I've read we are asking for... what are we asking for! We're not approaching the developers in a way that would make them interested. We're not providing them ways to make sighted people go Hey neat while we go We can now play too. Audiogames.net was originally conceived in an age where audyssey.org was kind of not doing much of anything but hosting an email list. There wasn't a complete collection of gaming links for the blind. There wasn't a single forum site for discussion of those games, and frankly this list is enormously high-traffic because it's an email list, not a forum, and people are not usually on here because it's so populated. Now, audyssey.org is trying to get started again. PCSGames.com has an enormous list of games. the list goes on. We could change. I just don't think we will. For my final word, I think that the drop down box isn't just easier to use for folks with screen readers. What person is going to go to a site, looking for audiogames, and instead of looking through the big, in your face list, say I think I'll search the site for audiogames for only games with audio. The point is kind of silly, although I understand that it's a sore spot due to the questions of those who would rather ask on list than try using the tools they are given. The list is right there. Everyone and anyone is going to use it. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 4/20/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Decota. Firstly, remember that the dropdown box on audiogames.net is not the be all and end all of site searching, and also that the disclaimer statement at the top of the site clearly states access as a primary motivation. Both of these were set by Richard and sander
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
You said there was a part of mass effect that was playable by sound? Could you give me some more details as to exactly which one? That's probably the single graphical game I'd really want to play, so it would be nice to give it a try next time I'm near an xbox. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
Hi Decota. I'm afraid I simply do not agree that your catagorizations of what is or is not an audio game are so easy as you suggest, indeed one thing that studdying philosophy has taught me is that rigid classifications are a sure fire way to desaster. Take the BG games for instance. They have a fully graphical interface, so by your deffinition they are vvideo games, yet they also contain audio for important game events and output to sapi. so what are they? I'm afraid your calling what I say Bs does not change the point at hand. Likewise, you talk about accessible parts in an inaccessible game well what is accessible? I have spent the last five years writing on that question and the ultimate answer I came with is that found in the database guidelines, namely, equal effort. As I said, you could! freely claime that original super mario brothers is accessible. There are sounds of jumps, walking, hitting monsters etc which nintendo inserted into the game, and it is undeniable that some blind people have learnt by timing to play through levels on original Super Mario brothers. This however is not! due to anything on the half of nintendo, rather it is simply because some people have what is super human patience, and I would not see mainstream companies get the credit for doing nothing when in effect the credit belongs to those individuals who do! exert massive amounts of effort to play games, despite missing %80 of the games' information. You also seem to have a slightly off idea of actually how! efforts to contact mainstream companies work. Since it is practically impossible to contact the developement section of Capcom, intendo etc (believe me, I've tried), the contact needs to be more formal, thus such conversations are not! done by E-mail, but by direct consultation at various conferences, or through press and the media such as the reporter who recently gained information on access to games. I have done some of this sort of work myself, and Richard and Sander webmasters of audiogames.net do far more, since ultimately big coorporations are not going to listen to any individual, but may! listen to formal groups such as the game accessibility special interest group. i do take the point that times have changed, however to me, this is even more! a chance to include and contact indi developers, since the Iphone and other systems are where such developements happen and it's by the indi developers that I personally believe we'll see changes in the future, and this is also why I'm adamant that all those indi devs who have! made changes to their games, whatever those changes be get the credit and recognition they deserve from the community. while I do take your point about game audio, to me that is not something which should be done by altering the community and the site attached to it, but by going out! into the mainstream indi game community and participating. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
John, The part of Mass Effect that is playable is really a minigame, and it's mass effect 2. Now, I'll be the first to admit that most of mass effect is unplayable by us, but this one part, this one minigame, is entirely playable. In fact, I'd love to see a game made that is basically an expansion on this minigame. It could be done. The minigame in question involves scanning a planet for resources. When you come to a planet, you use probes to mine resources from the planet automatically. What you do is move your scanner across its surface. It wraps around, so I did overlap a little bit of my original starting point, but I scanned planets, judged the type of resource, each resource made a different sound, and amount present, the sound was at a higher pitch the more resources were available, and cover the entire planet, almost as well as any sighted person could have done. It's not a huge part of the game, nor is it an important story element, but if you look at a game that is meant for mainstream sighted players and you realize that there is a part of the game where you have almost as much info as they do, it's amazing. The only thing I couldn't get a read on was how many probes I had left, and of course I couldn't go buy more, but those are rather small elements when compared to the fact that I was entirely able to play even that small of an aspect of a major, big company, millions of dollars game. Dark, You and I are on the same court. We're playing the same ballgame, but we're playing different positions, both important. I look at audiogames as a genre. You do as well, but you look at it from a different point of view. I try to move the accessible toward the mainstream, you try to move the mainstream toward the accessible. I think that we can both get a lot of things accomplished, if we have the right tools and resources, but I'll be honest. I wish there were more people playing ball like I do. I think that Jeremy is playing it that way, making everyone use the mouse for Swamp, not allowing a keyboard alternative. He's making the accessible stuff more mainstream. My goal is to show people what they've already done, how they can improve, and how much we don't need to change. Your goal is to show them what we do need to change, how those changes have been done, and how they could be done. Both are useful. Keep that in mind. As for conferences, I really want to go to them. I want some official support in this. I'd love to go to Bioware and tell them that this little part of Mass Effect 2 was accessible. Hey. It changed my playing experience of the game. I was able to take the controls for myself and do something with complete confidence. And at the same time, there's a certain poignancy to being so excited about a rather small minigame. I know I'm not the only one who would love to sit and play that game for a while, scanning planets, gathering resources. I bet we'd all love to give it a go, and what does that say to them? This community is so interested in gaming, so excited about it, that they take one of our side quests and get really excited about it. How much more excited would they be if we put in two or three accessible side quests? Then, ... and then, they keep moving, slowly but surely in that direction. One little thank you, one little baby step, one little suggestion at a time. We're not working at cross purposes in this one, just from a different angle. That's what I want to do. That's why I want to get organized. If I only knew how, I'd already have everything set up. I'd already have a showcase of what we have done, what we can do. I just don't know how, so I'm learning, so I'm trying to influence what's already there. I don't want to ruin Audiogames.net. I don't want to stop giving credit to developers who put time and effort into making their games accessible to us, but accessibilitygames.net isn't what I'm trying to get going. I'm trying to push for integration, not separation or conciliation. I want people to see us in a different light. Not the community that's just a bit weird, just a bit different, always demanding change, always demanding ... whatever we demand. I want them to see us as willing to work toward that change, to be grateful for what has been done. We have a hard time with that, and it shows. As I said, I think we can do a lot, both of us, with both of our different perspectives. And I do think that there is room for both perspectives. However, I will ask a question. Which is easier to understand: rigid classification of games such as videogames, audiogames, text games, etc. or a lumpy genre including some of all of these? I'm not trying to rub anything into anyone's face, just to ask a question of practicality of a philosopher...and having a friend who just earned a degree in the philosophy program, I know how hard that can be to do. Is it better to have rigidly defined examples, get more done, give people a quick and dirty showcase when they show up to the site,
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
Right right. I agree that accessible games need a place, and that place should be ... of course, web based. I argue, though, that Audyssey's function is to do that. Audiogames.net filled a niche that Audyssey didn't because, and no offense Audyssey guys, Audyssey sort of dropped the ball, Lost steam, whatever. But now, Audyssey is seeing new life, so we can move all the audio games stuff to Audyssey and make Audiogames.net a place to go for industrial leaders for information on audiogames and game audio. How neat it would be to get the Game Audio Institute involved. They just might care enough, and right now, game audio is a big, big field in games. I want to see the accessible games supported, as I said, I just don't know that that support ought to come at the expense of industry-wide information which is going to include our games. I mean look at it this way. It's been often written on this list and others that we don't have features because developers don't care to incorporate them. Well, some developers are making their games, or parts of their games, accessible by accident. There's a part of a game called Mass Effect 2, the planet scanning section, which I can play because there are audio cues. I think that Mass Effect 2 therefore deserves a section in the forums of Audiogames.net, even if it isn't given a place in the database. And there's another thing. We keep going back to this, and I feel it's my fault for not making things clear enough. I mean, I know I'm not very good at that some times, so here's another try. If accessible games whose primary method of play is a screen reader or SAPI and not audio cues are going to remain on Audiogames.net, that could turn out just fine, even if bigger concerns got interested, but if they're interested, then it seems to me that they need to get a good overview of Audiogames, simply by going to the site. If you go to the site, you see the news feed, then you see a huge list of many, many games. I argue that all of those games should be stand-alone audio games (standalone meaning not a mud with a soundpack or a text adventure that would be essentially unplayable without a screen reader, or a browser game of similar styling.) I say this because the search function could include all of those things, if you wanted, but you shouldn't have to go to the extra work to find Audiogames on Audiogames.net. You should have to go to the extra work to find soundpacks for muds, mods for games, and accdessible text adventures, because they are slightly unrelated side categories. I understand that this would be a major overhaul, and frankly I don't see it ever happening. Not only is everyone relatively set in their ways, both in our own community and the world at large, even though you, Dark, put up most of the updates, you probably can't just make a major site decision like that. Still, even if it doesn't happen on Audiogames.net, maybe someone will take this point and run with it. I can't afford to buy and host a domain right now, or I'd try to do it, as is my eventual goal, but maybe someone can, and if they can, then I'll help them as I can. Right now, sighted folks are making tentative progress in improving game audio. Eventually, there wouldn't need to be an Accessible games idea for games, if we could make it common practice to add accessibility features into mainstream products. I'm not saying in two years, or even in five, or ten. But eventually, if we play our cards right, if we work together, if we stop demanding and start asking and showing how things can be done, if we invite them into our world rather than trying to change theirs, then maybe we can make a huge, huge difference. It's idealistic, and maybe changing Audiogames.net wouldn't accomplish this. Certainly registering our games on Indie development sites would also be a step in the right direction, as Dark recommended. Maybe even if we miss one step, the others will catch the sighted world up. My primary goal here is to provide food for thought, and I ope your brains have left this message, this topic, full of good ideas. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 4/18/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: I agree Decota there is indeed a difference betwene audio and accessible games, but I do not agree that difference is as easily quantified as you suggest, since to me something like alteraeon with the soundpack, lone wolf, king of dragon pass or smugglers because! they feature sound and spoken feedback, whether that is sapi or by your screen reader are still at least partly audio games. this is however to me still quite legitimate, since it is still possible for people using the catagorization system on audiogames.net to separate audio games from textual ones, or even those that involve! text quite easily by using the search function, since such catagorization information is added when i create entries. Equally, remember that if we were just! talking about games played through sound there are actually
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
I haven't played life all thaqt much, and the version I played may not be the same version as the one your game was based off of. Both physical versions I played did have the option to trade jobs with another player at some point though, which made things ... well, a little sneaky, if you know what I mean. As for Audiogames.net, I take the point about Lone Wolf, especially, and how SAPI voices available text. I understand that that's what makes an audiogame an audiogame, but my point is that there are some titles on the site that are ... well, as you put it, acknowledging a developer for their astounding work in making a game accessible to screen reading technology. I don't intend to say that they shouldn't be acknowledged, but I do intend to say that it may be somewhat inappropriate, as you aren't playing those games with sound. You're playing them with text. As for Lone Wolf, when I first bought it, I had a really, really crappy soundcard. I couldn't use the screen reader and the game at the same time. That was a relatively long time ago. I was able to play Lone Wolf, with a pretty decent success rate, without a screen reader, at least on many of the missions. I argue that that makes Lone Wolf an audiogame, whereas, Say, the ChoiceOfGames games are accessible. They can be played with Voiceover or on the web, but they aren't audiogames, just as a game book isn't an audiogame. I realize, too, that my opinion is in the minority in this. It just strikes me that we are making the field of audiogaming exclusive, by turning it into accessible gaming. There is a difference, and occasionally an appreciable one. To ignore this is to everyone's detriment. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 4/17/13, Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net wrote: Hi Dakotah, True, deciding not to go to college in the game of Life is not a good decision, but it is there on the board. The same with deciding to or not to buy auto insurance, life insurance, fire insurance and stocks. Not a good idea not to, but the game does give you the choice. Speaking of choices, you do not have the choice of to get married or not, and to have kids or not. In the game of Life I do not remember a rule about a speeding ticket if you spin a 10. Have a good one. BFN Jim Ever feel like life was a game and you had the wrong instruction book? j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
I agree Decota there is indeed a difference betwene audio and accessible games, but I do not agree that difference is as easily quantified as you suggest, since to me something like alteraeon with the soundpack, lone wolf, king of dragon pass or smugglers because! they feature sound and spoken feedback, whether that is sapi or by your screen reader are still at least partly audio games. this is however to me still quite legitimate, since it is still possible for people using the catagorization system on audiogames.net to separate audio games from textual ones, or even those that involve! text quite easily by using the search function, since such catagorization information is added when i create entries. Equally, remember that if we were just! talking about games played through sound there are actually not a few inaccessible audio games. For example games that use an audio feedback but feature a graphical main user interface such as vib ribbon on the playstation, zombies scream on the iPhone, and indeed all the rythm action games such as guitar heroes, rockband etc. such games feature sound as their main gameplay component, but their main interface and kews are entirely graphical. This makes them inaccessible (albeit some blind people have had success playing them by trial and error). while I do very much take your point, and in fact agree, it sstrikes me your idea of excluding audiogaems.net to just! audio games only and removing all of the spoonbill games and anything else with text wouldn't work, particularly since as I said, there are still! audio games that are not accessible. i'd recommend myself a different approach, by having indi developers of audio games register on the same sights such as gamehippo which other developers of graphical games use. So that for example when a person looked up indi developed fps games, they'd run across swamp and shades of doom beside all the graphical ones. That would strike me as a much more legitimate way of achieving the end of not! making audio games exclusive to blind people, but also preserve the access aspect. I do! think accessible games need their own site and promotion, simply because there is no where else on the net that will do it, but that doesn't stop people from going out into other gaming situations and promoting audio games elsehwere either. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
Hi Decota. I dont' mind you voicing such opinions, since free discussion is always welcome, but there are a few points you probably didn't considder. Firstly, the way audiogames.net includes text games etc is not the responsability of myself, it actually began with richard and sander both of whome are fully sighted and who began the db back in 2004 and still remain officially webmasters of the site. it is not intended to exclude anyone, it's just intended as a method of putting all accessible games in one place. second, i am afraid I simply do not agree with you that a game like alteraeon with oriol's soundpack is not! an audio game. lets take a simple example. Originally, Ian humphries programmed his cribbage game to be self voicing, to use voice files. he however realized that this took far more time and effort for little atmospheric bennifit, so rejiggered his games to use sapi instead, while keeping sounds and affects. his games also feature graphics and fully available on screen text, they just happen to output to sapi. Are they? audio games? Now look at lone wolf. it can output to sapi, it has on screen text it has lots of sound effects, but it also can output to various screen readers. Is lone wolf an audio game? My problem with your distinction is effectively if we removed every game that had a text component and every game that used sapi we'd pretty much have little to nothing left in the db. Remember, to a sighted player, lone wolf would be no more an audio game than any mud. As regards Eamon deluxe, gamebooks etc, well as I said, people can quite freely search the db to exclude those results, the catagories are there if people will use them, and it seems unfair not to recognize the efforts of frank black, coops, and all the other devs who have altered there gamebooks and other peaces of software for screen reader access, and after all playing with sapi or an in built voice, much less on the iphone these are still audio games anyway. audiogames.net seems a reasonable title for the site to me, since it applies to games that can be accessible with sound. it's not intended as an exclusion, indeed you'd be surprised how many sighted people we do get visiting the site from time to time, however there is such a complexity in defigning what an audio game actually is, I prefer myself to stick with the deffinition we have now. After all, any sighted person could use sapi to play jim's games or download nvda, or pick up an Iphone and turn on voice over to play a game like king of dragon pass if they so desired. As I said, i do agree that no catagorization at all would be a bad thing, but the catagorization does xist if people just take the time to use it. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
Hi Decota. I've never heard of those rules with speeding you mention either. Myself, when i used to play life with my parents, it was pretty much the same game and the only missing component was as you said, university vs business, but business was such a dire option. wow! you can really tell the game was written in the 70's with a breakdown like that! now, it'd be university that gave you massive debts :D. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
Hi Dakotah, True, deciding not to go to college in the game of Life is not a good decision, but it is there on the board. The same with deciding to or not to buy auto insurance, life insurance, fire insurance and stocks. Not a good idea not to, but the game does give you the choice. Speaking of choices, you do not have the choice of to get married or not, and to have kids or not. In the game of Life I do not remember a rule about a speeding ticket if you spin a 10. Have a good one. BFN Jim Ever feel like life was a game and you had the wrong instruction book? j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
Most of the people I've gotten to play Swamp are sighted. My two sighted brothers, my wife, two of my friends, both of whom are pretty hardcore gamers and both of whom loved Swamp, even before the 2.9 overhaul. The only blind person I can confirm as someone I've brought onboard is one friend of mine. I've mostly shown off the game to sighted folks, because it's quite a bit like games they're more used to. My favorite part of how Aprone has made Swamp is that there are distinct advantages to blind players and sighted players. For example, unlike in AudioQuake, sighted players don't see far enough away that they can automatically off blind folks without much effort 9although I sort of got good enough to hold my own in that game). Sighted players usually aren't skilled enough with audio to shoot at long range, but they get the benefit of seeing through walls, making them dead handy to take on missions for crates. However, we blind folk are good with audio, so we can play longrange, and sometimes we hear stuff they don't see. swamp is the first shooter I've ever played that makes it rewarding to play with sighted people as opposed to frustrating. Even in SoundRTS there are certain overview advantages that sighted folks get, and this is somewhat true for Castaways, but Swamp doesn't try to make things equal. Instead, it balances things out nicely. My friend,, for example, almost never died, though his health did get quite low sometimes, and he could literally take out a swarm of zombies with the assault rifle at close range, but he was absolutely rubbish as a sniper, which is a role he usually wants to take. Instead, I would shoot longrange and he would shoot shortrange, and we had a lot of fun playing together. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 4/15/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi al. the swamp maps aren't propper graphics, they are indeed just referenced coloured map sections. Had swamp been programmed with full graphics it would've taken about five years to complete, because just about %80 of tthe developement of any graphical game is! it's graphics, animations etc. Still, i'd advise your friend to give it a try, since they might learn soemthing new. i've certainly introduced some sighted friends of mine to the concept of shades of doom before and they found it a distinctly interesting idea. beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
Actually decota, I never found any real advantages in castaways to the graphics that you couldn't get from the map since basically the main advantage was overview of building placement and the audio tools gave you all the info there anyway. Swamp, playing from a low vision perspective I loved sniping with pure audio since I could take out stuff that wasn't yet visible on the map, though being able to quickly navigate using visual reference to the internal walls helps. Then again, as a low vision player who plays both audio games and low vision accessable ones I suppose I get the best of both worlds :D. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
wow decota I couldn't get friends interested in any games. I had a couple that would play at the edges, with things like last crusade. generally it was, um, what is this stupid game doing with no graphics, I can't play this, there is no graphics. How did you manage this. I'd like to know your secret, I have been trying for ages and I have a friend that is a hardcore gamer and he won't even touch swamp isn't even interested in blind games. The only game he did play to the end was terraformas but deleted it after he finnished the demo. so maybe its not universal where the sighted play blind games, though my brother did get me to play poker for 4 months straight since he could relate to it I would play and he would shoot me numbers and stuff to enter. Over that I have got a friend or 2 to at least play the rsgames and quentin c client games but nothing more. I have got the same answer abut crappy games with no graphics in them that I gave up asking or even mentioning blind related anything about 3 years ago. So you must have been in the right place at the right time. I do think one issue with blind vs mainstream is that the sighted find it hard to relate to a graphicless environment even if they play with headphones all the time I am not sure how to combat that though. Sertainly the consolers will have a bigger advantage since they are just playing mainstreamers all the way up. At 01:16 AM 4/17/2013, you wrote: Most of the people I've gotten to play Swamp are sighted. My two sighted brothers, my wife, two of my friends, both of whom are pretty hardcore gamers and both of whom loved Swamp, even before the 2.9 overhaul. The only blind person I can confirm as someone I've brought onboard is one friend of mine. I've mostly shown off the game to sighted folks, because it's quite a bit like games they're more used to. My favorite part of how Aprone has made Swamp is that there are distinct advantages to blind players and sighted players. For example, unlike in AudioQuake, sighted players don't see far enough away that they can automatically off blind folks without much effort 9although I sort of got good enough to hold my own in that game). Sighted players usually aren't skilled enough with audio to shoot at long range, but they get the benefit of seeing through walls, making them dead handy to take on missions for crates. However, we blind folk are good with audio, so we can play longrange, and sometimes we hear stuff they don't see. swamp is the first shooter I've ever played that makes it rewarding to play with sighted people as opposed to frustrating. Even in SoundRTS there are certain overview advantages that sighted folks get, and this is somewhat true for Castaways, but Swamp doesn't try to make things equal. Instead, it balances things out nicely. My friend,, for example, almost never died, though his health did get quite low sometimes, and he could literally take out a swarm of zombies with the assault rifle at close range, but he was absolutely rubbish as a sniper, which is a role he usually wants to take. Instead, I would shoot longrange and he would shoot shortrange, and we had a lot of fun playing together. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 4/15/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi al. the swamp maps aren't propper graphics, they are indeed just referenced coloured map sections. Had swamp been programmed with full graphics it would've taken about five years to complete, because just about %80 of tthe developement of any graphical game is! it's graphics, animations etc. Still, i'd advise your friend to give it a try, since they might learn soemthing new. i've certainly introduced some sighted friends of mine to the concept of shades of doom before and they found it a distinctly interesting idea. beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
The first thing that would make it easier for sighted people to play swamp is that Swamp does have graphics. And it also is important to consider how you approach someone sighted with a game that has no graphics. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
how do you approach a sighted gamer with a game with no graphics. I havn't showed swamp in its latest reencarnation but when I showed 2.8 to my friend he had a look at the game, screwed up his face and told me that they were crappy line graphics and that he was wasting his time. same with shades of doom. if I could get over that maybe but how do you tell a sightling to not use their eyes at all on those games with no graphics. At 05:48 AM 4/17/2013, you wrote: The first thing that would make it easier for sighted people to play swamp is that Swamp does have graphics. And it also is important to consider how you approach someone sighted with a game that has no graphics. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
I will say this. It depends very much on the person... but if I can introduce sighted people to Goalball, a sport way more complex than the most complex audio game... and if they can enjoy that without vision, audiogames are just a step down. - Original Message - From: shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp? how do you approach a sighted gamer with a game with no graphics. I havn't showed swamp in its latest reencarnation but when I showed 2.8 to my friend he had a look at the game, screwed up his face and told me that they were crappy line graphics and that he was wasting his time. same with shades of doom. if I could get over that maybe but how do you tell a sightling to not use their eyes at all on those games with no graphics. At 05:48 AM 4/17/2013, you wrote: The first thing that would make it easier for sighted people to play swamp is that Swamp does have graphics. And it also is important to consider how you approach someone sighted with a game that has no graphics. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
aah ok maybe the people I tried to introduce the games to were not that interested. oh well. At 06:15 AM 4/17/2013, you wrote: I will say this. It depends very much on the person... but if I can introduce sighted people to Goalball, a sport way more complex than the most complex audio game... and if they can enjoy that without vision, audiogames are just a step down. - Original Message - From: shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp? how do you approach a sighted gamer with a game with no graphics. I havn't showed swamp in its latest reencarnation but when I showed 2.8 to my friend he had a look at the game, screwed up his face and told me that they were crappy line graphics and that he was wasting his time. same with shades of doom. if I could get over that maybe but how do you tell a sightling to not use their eyes at all on those games with no graphics. At 05:48 AM 4/17/2013, you wrote: The first thing that would make it easier for sighted people to play swamp is that Swamp does have graphics. And it also is important to consider how you approach someone sighted with a game that has no graphics. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
Ok. The important thing to remember is perspective. It seems that either you are introducing the game, or your friend is focused on the game, not having graphics. Don't say anything about what the game doesn't have. I mean, look at Jim Kitchen's games. I recently had a friend over who was disappointed that we weren't going to play Kitchensinc Life. That game is pretty simple, from a mechanics point of view. It has no graphics. It doesn't technically follow the rules or board of Life. If I said that to my friend, would they want to play it? Most likely not. Instead, I did it like this, a long time ago. Hey. I want to show you this neat game. It's called life, and it's a really good reimagining of that boardgame. Your person is going to proceed along the board, and you can sit back and listen, which was key at that point, since my room was not arranged for viewing pleasure, and this was long enough ago that I was in high school and did a lot of game playing in my room. I got my friends interested in the game by telling them all the neat things that were in the games. As for your graphics obsessed friend, tell them to play ... oh man. I can't remember the name that I was looking for,, but tell them to play a visual novel or watch a movie if they only care about graphics, because, as the game industry is quickly learning, graphics don't make a game. Many sighted people are making audiogames for themselves. I can't tell you the amount of apps I've seen on the store for iDevices where the point is to sit and listen rather than to play a specific game. As I recall, the game Dimensions is not developed with blind people in mind, we can just play the game as anyone else can, but it's audio based. Some audio based apps are still inaccessible to us for one reason or another, but audiogaming is becoming rather more mainstreamed than we might expect. I suggest, and I might start a new topic at some point, that we petition the audiogames.net folks to subordinate the gblind people stuff to the audiogames stuff. For example: I can direct sighted folks to audiogames.net, but I always have to give them the disclaimer that there are a lot of muds and gamebooks and text adventures on that site. I suggest that, especially with the massive list on PCSGames site and the Audyssey magazine getting back into the mix, that audiogames.net be a site for audiogames rather than games for the blind or games we can play. That way, if I want my friend to see about audiogames, they can go to that one site and learn about games in audio, whether they are meant for the blind, playable by the blind, accessible, inaccessible, or whatever. Anyway, relating to Swamp again, it's all in the perspective. If we focus on what we don't have, we'll be pretty depressed, as will anyone we try to talk to about our stuff. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 4/16/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: aah ok maybe the people I tried to introduce the games to were not that interested. oh well. At 06:15 AM 4/17/2013, you wrote: I will say this. It depends very much on the person... but if I can introduce sighted people to Goalball, a sport way more complex than the most complex audio game... and if they can enjoy that without vision, audiogames are just a step down. - Original Message - From: shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp? how do you approach a sighted gamer with a game with no graphics. I havn't showed swamp in its latest reencarnation but when I showed 2.8 to my friend he had a look at the game, screwed up his face and told me that they were crappy line graphics and that he was wasting his time. same with shades of doom. if I could get over that maybe but how do you tell a sightling to not use their eyes at all on those games with no graphics. At 05:48 AM 4/17/2013, you wrote: The first thing that would make it easier for sighted people to play swamp is that Swamp does have graphics. And it also is important to consider how you approach someone sighted with a game that has no graphics. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
Hi clemment. to be strictly accurate, swamp doesn't have graphics in the way a sighted person would understand them for a first person game. Rather, it has a visual representation of in game objects and spaces, but this is not the same as graphics that any other graphical fps game has. Swamp has an overview in simple terms that works as a display of the map, but This is why targiting, shooting etc still! need to be done with the audio. The best way i can think of to explain is that swamp's graphics are rather like the sonar in a game like lone wolf. you could not play just! with the sonar sound alone, without reference to the numbers or textual descriptions. The sonar doesn't give information accept about the objects around you, and all tactics, reports of your progress etc and representations of the environment are done in addition to the sonar, the sonar just gives more information. this is why you cannot describe swamp as a graphical game in the way that say tterraformers is also a fully graphical game, it is mearly an audio game that has a visual overview component for those who are able to use it. had aprone put full graphics into swamp, developement would've taken a lot! longer, and he'd have likely had to have lots more coding for animation, perspective, as well as likely a graphic artist to create the graphics and additional targit schemas and addons for the game. indeed, the world of first person graphical games is virtually it's own subgenre of programming itself. I just point this out so people will know that if they show swamp to a sighted person, it is not in graphical terms anything like what a sighted person would expect from an fps game. The graphical elements re an overview at best, and can only give specific help. That being said, that not only makes the game accessible, but also quite unique, for instance in the different textures of tiles that can call different zombie types and the way relatively noisy actions need planning, as well as sound targiting etc. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
yeah the word blind puts people off. I think its relationships more than anything else, board games have been played and therefore the sighted can relate to the same game types. on the subject of which I'd like to see the game risk and the game ulsas which is like monopoly, except you are trying to become the president of a company, the looser is the cleaner. it was simular to monopoly I even made my own board, sadly I forget how to play but it was based on the monopoly style. the other game is risk a strat game a lot of my sighted friends play. those did interest me. At 07:44 AM 4/17/2013, you wrote: Ok. The important thing to remember is perspective. It seems that either you are introducing the game, or your friend is focused on the game, not having graphics. Don't say anything about what the game doesn't have. I mean, look at Jim Kitchen's games. I recently had a friend over who was disappointed that we weren't going to play Kitchensinc Life. That game is pretty simple, from a mechanics point of view. It has no graphics. It doesn't technically follow the rules or board of Life. If I said that to my friend, would they want to play it? Most likely not. Instead, I did it like this, a long time ago. Hey. I want to show you this neat game. It's called life, and it's a really good reimagining of that boardgame. Your person is going to proceed along the board, and you can sit back and listen, which was key at that point, since my room was not arranged for viewing pleasure, and this was long enough ago that I was in high school and did a lot of game playing in my room. I got my friends interested in the game by telling them all the neat things that were in the games. As for your graphics obsessed friend, tell them to play ... oh man. I can't remember the name that I was looking for,, but tell them to play a visual novel or watch a movie if they only care about graphics, because, as the game industry is quickly learning, graphics don't make a game. Many sighted people are making audiogames for themselves. I can't tell you the amount of apps I've seen on the store for iDevices where the point is to sit and listen rather than to play a specific game. As I recall, the game Dimensions is not developed with blind people in mind, we can just play the game as anyone else can, but it's audio based. Some audio based apps are still inaccessible to us for one reason or another, but audiogaming is becoming rather more mainstreamed than we might expect. I suggest, and I might start a new topic at some point, that we petition the audiogames.net folks to subordinate the gblind people stuff to the audiogames stuff. For example: I can direct sighted folks to audiogames.net, but I always have to give them the disclaimer that there are a lot of muds and gamebooks and text adventures on that site. I suggest that, especially with the massive list on PCSGames site and the Audyssey magazine getting back into the mix, that audiogames.net be a site for audiogames rather than games for the blind or games we can play. That way, if I want my friend to see about audiogames, they can go to that one site and learn about games in audio, whether they are meant for the blind, playable by the blind, accessible, inaccessible, or whatever. Anyway, relating to Swamp again, it's all in the perspective. If we focus on what we don't have, we'll be pretty depressed, as will anyone we try to talk to about our stuff. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 4/16/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: aah ok maybe the people I tried to introduce the games to were not that interested. oh well. At 06:15 AM 4/17/2013, you wrote: I will say this. It depends very much on the person... but if I can introduce sighted people to Goalball, a sport way more complex than the most complex audio game... and if they can enjoy that without vision, audiogames are just a step down. - Original Message - From: shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp? how do you approach a sighted gamer with a game with no graphics. I havn't showed swamp in its latest reencarnation but when I showed 2.8 to my friend he had a look at the game, screwed up his face and told me that they were crappy line graphics and that he was wasting his time. same with shades of doom. if I could get over that maybe but how do you tell a sightling to not use their eyes at all on those games with no graphics. At 05:48 AM 4/17/2013, you wrote: The first thing that would make it easier for sighted people to play swamp is that Swamp does have graphics. And it also is important to consider how you approach someone sighted with a game that has no graphics. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
Hi Decota. As regards audiogames.net, well there is already the function to search for games that just! contain audio and not text, use the search archive function on the main site since the games are! catagorized as having either audio, text, graphics or a combination of the three. while i absolutely see your point as regards just having audio games, I equally do think cataloguing and recognizing accessible games is important. Indeed, there are more than a few examples which blur the line consiidderably. Take the alteraeon mushclient pack for example. i'd argue that with the amount of sounds, atmosphere etc, that is much closer to being the experience of a full on audio rpg, than just a textual game such as say diskworld mud is, simply because of the way the reading of the text interacts with all the music, sound etc that has been added. Indeed, for myself who uses sapi with the mushZ pack there isn't a massive amount of difference in terms of what I hear betwene playing that and playing a game by jim kitchin or spoonbill. I get sapi and sfx and have to hit keys in time. Were the db reorganized I do agree perhaps some more catagories for self voiced, screen reader required and none, partial or complete soundscape would be nice, but I don't think the current system is too bad given that the search archive function exists, albeit not many people seem to know about or make use of it for some reason. As regards introducing sighted people to audio games, one of the best experience I remember was when I was living in a room in my colidge. By chance, a couple of my friends dropped in. we'd been due to meet later, but they arrived early, when in fact I was in the shower. Not wanting my friends to be board, I yelled through the door for them to activate kitchinsinc life and turn up the sound. We then spend a quite happy half hour, me in the shower yelling commands through the door as we played our way through the board. We even didn't use a decent sapi voice since back then the only one I could get to work was ms sam, which indeed lead to a bit of a fashion among the three of us saying but you dant! in immitation. It was pretty funny. Generally it just depends upon how open minded the person is, whether the person themselves enjoys audio in the first place, and also if they're just a graphics hog brainwashed by the big coorporations. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
Hi Shaun, I haven't been following this topic too closely, but from what I have read it sounds like your friends have a bit of an attitude problem. What I mean by that is some sighted people will compromise with a blind person and will play a game like Jim Kitchen's Monopoly even though it has no graphics just for the experience of playing together. Your friend on the other hand seems to have the attitude no graphics, it sucks, so it is not worth his time which is his problem, and is not the case with every sighted person out there. I am sure you two could get into something like Alter Aeon which is text based and if he wants 3d graphics and all that jazz that's just tough titty said the kitty because you two don't have anything in common, and he isn't your friend because he does not want to compromise. I have met a few people like that, and I don't associate with them much on the subject of games because we don't have anything in common. In short, it takes the right kind of person to play accessible games with. Cheers! On 4/16/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: aah ok maybe the people I tried to introduce the games to were not that interested. oh well. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
Hi Shaun, My sighted family, neighbors etc play my games. Probably more on my computer because I have several good sapi5 voices. But they say that they do, and do seem to enjoy playing. I think mostly the board games like, Life, Monopoly, Hangmen, concentration, Yahtzee and Press Your Luck. But they will also try some of the action games as well, and get the hang of them after a bit of practice. BFN Jim I am now playing with a full deck. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
Hi Dakotah, First off, thanks, and I am very happy to hear that you and your friend enjoy playing my game of Life. I was just wondering though, other than where the board has the two splits where there are two paths that the player can take, how does my game of life not play as the original game plays? Thanks. BFN Jim Historically, I have been alive my entire life. There for, I always will be. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
It also takes the right kind of person to advertise playing accessible games. The trouble is, we in the blind and visually impaired community, by design and leadership and tendency, often come off as having an entitlement issue with whatever. I have a lot of friends I talk about game stuff with, and they're all comfortable experiencing my games and talking with me about theres. That's not always the case with every blind person, because, sadly, many of us don't really interrelate well. We're easily led to be upset that sighted people have a lot of games, and that is certainly true, but it doesn't make for much in the way of interesting gamer to gamer conversation, and it certainly doesn't make them want to play with us. I'm not accusing anyone, by the way, just stating observed facts. I understand, on the audiogames.net front, that many of the muds and the like out there have impressive soundpacks, but they are not audiogames. They are muds. The thing to keep in mind is that we are separating ourselves from the sighted majority. We are often taught that that is appropriate, but it won't work and isn't sustainable. I know it would mean purchasing another domain or consolidating a bit, but a more sustainable model would be the inclusion of only audio-based stand-alone games, games meant to be primarily played, or equally playable, with audio, rather than relying on visual data for most of the interface elements. That's why I argue muds are not audio games, though they can be made into audio adventures. We could easily get many sighted people to come to audiogames.net, but a lot of those people will be turned off by text adventures who would not be turned off by, say, Shades of Doom, or Mysteries of the Ancients, or what have you. I don't have a problem with the fact that basically all the games on the page are accessibility minded. I mean, we're still the prime market for audio games, but we're not the only market anymore, and we are running a relatively exclusive site, not by choice but by, arguably, the design of the site itself. Yes, a visitor can search only for audio games on the site by using the search functions, but the big list of games on audiogames.net includes many titles that are fun, accessible, but aren't audiogames. Emon Delux, for example, has no audio at all. Nor do almost all of the game book style games. I argue that they don't, therefore, belong on the huge combo box of games on the bottom of the site's homepage. I would go so far as to question whether they should be given their own database entries on a site devoted to audiogames at all. It isn't that I don't like the games. Far from that, in fact. I love a good text game. I love mudding. I just don't think we're sending the right message out to the world if we turn a site about audio gaming into a site about blind gaming. That's what Audyssey's for, right? Let it do its job. I know that you guys are mostly not going to like all the things I'm saying, but do consider them carefully before you dismiss them as too strange or unhelpful. turn Audyssey.org into what Audiogames.net is now, and redesign, somewhat, the audiogames.net site. Don't make it all flashy and pretty and graphically awesome if you don't want, but let the site be about what it's about. It would be a little odd, for example, for there to be car maintenance tips on a cooking site. Both are real life oriented. Both are useful, but cooking has little enough to do with cars, except that people ought to know how to handle both. Don't let blindness be the common theme of audiogames.net. It cheapens the experience of the site for the rest of the world who might otherwise feel connected with a market, and who might open that market up to us some more by vent of wanting to make similar games for themselves. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 4/16/13, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Shaun, I haven't been following this topic too closely, but from what I have read it sounds like your friends have a bit of an attitude problem. What I mean by that is some sighted people will compromise with a blind person and will play a game like Jim Kitchen's Monopoly even though it has no graphics just for the experience of playing together. Your friend on the other hand seems to have the attitude no graphics, it sucks, so it is not worth his time which is his problem, and is not the case with every sighted person out there. I am sure you two could get into something like Alter Aeon which is text based and if he wants 3d graphics and all that jazz that's just tough titty said the kitty because you two don't have anything in common, and he isn't your friend because he does not want to compromise. I have met a few people like that, and I don't associate with them much on the subject of games because we don't have anything in common. In short, it takes the right kind of person to play accessible games with. Cheers! On 4/16/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
In reply to Jim Kitchen, I may not be remembering the game of life very well, but as I recall it, each job has functions around the board. For example, if you spin a 10, you have to pay the policeman player for speeding, etc. I don't remember very well about how life works, but I will voice one thought. Why would anyone not go to university in the game of life. It immediately guarantees you an amazing job and at the cost of only a couple of turns. With the spinner being random, I found that the automatic advancement of 14 spaces doesn't make up for having a crappy job. Anyway, it doesn't detract, in my opinion, from the great game you put out. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 4/16/13, Dakotah Rickard dakotah.rick...@gmail.com wrote: It also takes the right kind of person to advertise playing accessible games. The trouble is, we in the blind and visually impaired community, by design and leadership and tendency, often come off as having an entitlement issue with whatever. I have a lot of friends I talk about game stuff with, and they're all comfortable experiencing my games and talking with me about theres. That's not always the case with every blind person, because, sadly, many of us don't really interrelate well. We're easily led to be upset that sighted people have a lot of games, and that is certainly true, but it doesn't make for much in the way of interesting gamer to gamer conversation, and it certainly doesn't make them want to play with us. I'm not accusing anyone, by the way, just stating observed facts. I understand, on the audiogames.net front, that many of the muds and the like out there have impressive soundpacks, but they are not audiogames. They are muds. The thing to keep in mind is that we are separating ourselves from the sighted majority. We are often taught that that is appropriate, but it won't work and isn't sustainable. I know it would mean purchasing another domain or consolidating a bit, but a more sustainable model would be the inclusion of only audio-based stand-alone games, games meant to be primarily played, or equally playable, with audio, rather than relying on visual data for most of the interface elements. That's why I argue muds are not audio games, though they can be made into audio adventures. We could easily get many sighted people to come to audiogames.net, but a lot of those people will be turned off by text adventures who would not be turned off by, say, Shades of Doom, or Mysteries of the Ancients, or what have you. I don't have a problem with the fact that basically all the games on the page are accessibility minded. I mean, we're still the prime market for audio games, but we're not the only market anymore, and we are running a relatively exclusive site, not by choice but by, arguably, the design of the site itself. Yes, a visitor can search only for audio games on the site by using the search functions, but the big list of games on audiogames.net includes many titles that are fun, accessible, but aren't audiogames. Emon Delux, for example, has no audio at all. Nor do almost all of the game book style games. I argue that they don't, therefore, belong on the huge combo box of games on the bottom of the site's homepage. I would go so far as to question whether they should be given their own database entries on a site devoted to audiogames at all. It isn't that I don't like the games. Far from that, in fact. I love a good text game. I love mudding. I just don't think we're sending the right message out to the world if we turn a site about audio gaming into a site about blind gaming. That's what Audyssey's for, right? Let it do its job. I know that you guys are mostly not going to like all the things I'm saying, but do consider them carefully before you dismiss them as too strange or unhelpful. turn Audyssey.org into what Audiogames.net is now, and redesign, somewhat, the audiogames.net site. Don't make it all flashy and pretty and graphically awesome if you don't want, but let the site be about what it's about. It would be a little odd, for example, for there to be car maintenance tips on a cooking site. Both are real life oriented. Both are useful, but cooking has little enough to do with cars, except that people ought to know how to handle both. Don't let blindness be the common theme of audiogames.net. It cheapens the experience of the site for the rest of the world who might otherwise feel connected with a market, and who might open that market up to us some more by vent of wanting to make similar games for themselves. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 4/16/13, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Shaun, I haven't been following this topic too closely, but from what I have read it sounds like your friends have a bit of an attitude problem. What I mean by that is some sighted people will compromise with a blind person and will play a game like Jim Kitchen's Monopoly even though it has no
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
Hi al. the swamp maps aren't propper graphics, they are indeed just referenced coloured map sections. Had swamp been programmed with full graphics it would've taken about five years to complete, because just about %80 of tthe developement of any graphical game is! it's graphics, animations etc. Still, i'd advise your friend to give it a try, since they might learn soemthing new. i've certainly introduced some sighted friends of mine to the concept of shades of doom before and they found it a distinctly interesting idea. beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
Hi guys, I have a friend I was talking to about audio games, and I did notice ont he swamp menu that there is an option for graphics and no graphics. Is this like full fledged sighted graphics, or are these just blocks and colors. I was kind of wanting him to check it out, but he doesn't have time to mess with sappi or those kind of things. tnanks for any help on this subject. al The truth will set you free Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
The graphics are high contrasting shapes, but it will work just fine for him to play the game without a screen reader. Hi guys, I have a friend I was talking to about audio games, and I did notice ont he swamp menu that there is an option for graphics and no graphics. Is this like full fledged sighted graphics, or are these just blocks and colors. I was kind of wanting him to check it out, but he doesn't have time to mess with sappi or those kind of things. tnanks for any help on this subject. al The truth will set you free Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp?
Thank you for your help! al The truth will set you free Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. - Original Message - From: Jeremy Kaldobsky To: Gamers Discussion list Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:31 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Can a sighted person play swamp? The graphics are high contrasting shapes, but it will work just fine for him to play the game without a screen reader. Hi guys, I have a friend I was talking to about audio games, and I did notice ont he swamp menu that there is an option for graphics and no graphics. Is this like full fledged sighted graphics, or are these just blocks and colors. I was kind of wanting him to check it out, but he doesn't have time to mess with sappi or those kind of things. tnanks for any help on this subject. al The truth will set you free Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
