Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Thomas wrote: Leo Simons wrote: On 18-07-2005 15:33, Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I don't get around this cocoon problems I have I'll start a new presentation application (not dyngump) with J2EE and Struts. I'll chuck in 2 cents: I don't want J2EE. Servlets+Struts+other stuff like velocity is potentially nice, but please no EJB or JNDI or any of the other J2EE stack. Most of it is crap :-) If i go with struts it will be very simple Servelts+struts thats about it I hope to be able not use any other framwork for the database comunication but if I get a lot of protest there from you or other that works with Gump, I'll use a framwork for that to (Hybernate). like to hear what you have to say, if I missunderstud something with cocoon or if I'm just giving up to easy. But I want to get som results now and I feel that cocoon is one step to big to take at the moment to get where I whant. Ok. I'd appreciate if you could go into some more detail (and a little more concretely) on what you tried to do with dynagump that you were unable to get to, what you tried to get there, and how you figured out what to try, etc. That'll be very useful feedback to the cocoon people, and it means you won't have wasted your time :-) The thing that I got stuck on with cocoon is when it gets abit more complicated, create generators and more custome stuff. I have no problems when it comes to communicating with the database take out rows, update, add, the basic stuff. The problems comes when I want to do something with the data that I get. No problems on presenting the data writing xslt's and generating pages from xml files. That part I think works porfectly and is the reason why I whan't to lear more about cocoon. But when you whant to costumize the webapp abit more like generators I'm lost. The level of knoledge you need to proceed with that is huge and the tutorials often miss parts like filenames of files that are created and wich files he is working on (editing). Small things that is so important when you are new to things like a compleat framework. Something concrete is for example you get a value from the database and you whant to multiply it with another value that you also get from the db. To me it sounds like I have missed something essential. If I have missed somthing that makes me go Haha I might go with cocoon but as it is now cocoon is taking to much time to learn for me to make some progres before the summer of code is over. Good points and I don't have the energy/time to fill that teaching gap, I'm afraid. I don't mind if you go Struts+Hibernate, but at least, keep the html templates that of the current dynagump. -- Stefano. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Hi Stefano! I have taken a look at cocoon but find it kind of dificult to keep the things apart. I can't say that I get it all but from what I have red and understand the sql code is in the xml document with the content. Logic can be implemented in alot of different ways, java-script, xslt, and a costum generator. Is this right ??? My problem is that it gets kind of messy in the xml files where sql statements and content is mixed. Also if I whant to do some logic on it I have to make my own generator. I don't doubt that cocoon is realy good once you know it. As it is know just figured out the basic pipelines properly and find it to be a realy good content manage framework at least. And if I scratch the surfice abit more I'll find the good things about cocoon. If I don't get around this cocoon problems I have I'll start a new presentation application (not dyngump) with J2EE and Struts. like to hear what you have to say, if I missunderstud something with cocoon or if I'm just giving up to easy. But I want to get som results now and I feel that cocoon is one step to big to take at the moment to get where I whant. regards Thomas - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
On 18-07-2005 15:33, Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I don't get around this cocoon problems I have I'll start a new presentation application (not dyngump) with J2EE and Struts. I'll chuck in 2 cents: I don't want J2EE. Servlets+Struts+other stuff like velocity is potentially nice, but please no EJB or JNDI or any of the other J2EE stack. Most of it is crap :-) like to hear what you have to say, if I missunderstud something with cocoon or if I'm just giving up to easy. But I want to get som results now and I feel that cocoon is one step to big to take at the moment to get where I whant. Ok. I'd appreciate if you could go into some more detail (and a little more concretely) on what you tried to do with dynagump that you were unable to get to, what you tried to get there, and how you figured out what to try, etc. That'll be very useful feedback to the cocoon people, and it means you won't have wasted your time :-) Cheers, Leo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Leo Simons wrote: On 18-07-2005 15:33, Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I don't get around this cocoon problems I have I'll start a new presentation application (not dyngump) with J2EE and Struts. I'll chuck in 2 cents: I don't want J2EE. Servlets+Struts+other stuff like velocity is potentially nice, but please no EJB or JNDI or any of the other J2EE stack. Most of it is crap :-) If i go with struts it will be very simple Servelts+struts thats about it I hope to be able not use any other framwork for the database comunication but if I get a lot of protest there from you or other that works with Gump, I'll use a framwork for that to (Hybernate). like to hear what you have to say, if I missunderstud something with cocoon or if I'm just giving up to easy. But I want to get som results now and I feel that cocoon is one step to big to take at the moment to get where I whant. Ok. I'd appreciate if you could go into some more detail (and a little more concretely) on what you tried to do with dynagump that you were unable to get to, what you tried to get there, and how you figured out what to try, etc. That'll be very useful feedback to the cocoon people, and it means you won't have wasted your time :-) The thing that I got stuck on with cocoon is when it gets abit more complicated, create generators and more custome stuff. I have no problems when it comes to communicating with the database take out rows, update, add, the basic stuff. The problems comes when I want to do something with the data that I get. No problems on presenting the data writing xslt's and generating pages from xml files. That part I think works porfectly and is the reason why I whan't to lear more about cocoon. But when you whant to costumize the webapp abit more like generators I'm lost. The level of knoledge you need to proceed with that is huge and the tutorials often miss parts like filenames of files that are created and wich files he is working on (editing). Small things that is so important when you are new to things like a compleat framework. Something concrete is for example you get a value from the database and you whant to multiply it with another value that you also get from the db. To me it sounds like I have missed something essential. If I have missed somthing that makes me go Haha I might go with cocoon but as it is now cocoon is taking to much time to learn for me to make some progres before the summer of code is over. regards Thomas - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Leo Simons wrote: Thomas wrote: More I have taken a look at the dynaGump but can't get it to woork the application is missing a Catalogmanager.properties. I've copied one from the samples of the cocoon source but don't know if I need configure it in anny special way. That has got to be the most common error or rather warning cocoon spits out. It should be able to work without that file. What do you see when visiting http://localhost:8080/? Ignore the CatalogManager.properties message. It is for adding your own catalog to look up extra DTDs for xml source documents, to save network trips and get a local copy. You can have an optional CatalogManager.properties in your project which can be empty and thus keep the thing quiet. What version of Cocoon is this? -David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Thomas wrote: So I'm setingup Gump and I think I'm done... The problem now is to setup some configuration that will generate good data... a litle help with that would be nice... just something that gives me different stuff that can be applied to different use-cases. There is now code to generate lots of data :-). I've also put a dump of some data I generated with that code in SVN, so even if you don't get the python beastie running you should be able to use that. That data was generated as follows on my machine: cd /home/lsimons/svn/gump/branches/Gump3/ mysql -u gump -p gump gumpdb/src/sql/gump3-database-definition.sql ./gump run --workspace=/home/lsimons/svn/gump/branches/Gump3/metadata/workspace.xml ./gump run --workspace=/home/lsimons/svn/gump/branches/Gump3/fixture/metadata/workspace.xml (in addition setting the --databasepassword parameter to ./gump). We'll probably try to get you some really big database dumps of more realistic sample data (right now its just two runs on a single machine on the same day over about half a dozen projects, the db will have hundreds or even thousands of runs over hundreds of projects on half a dozen different machines over the course of several years) once you need 'em. cheers! Leo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Leo Simons wrote: Thomas wrote: Hi every one ! Hi Thomas! More I have taken a look at the dynaGump but can't get it to woork the application is missing a Catalogmanager.properties. I've copied one from the samples of the cocoon source but don't know if I need configure it in anny special way. That has got to be the most common error or rather warning cocoon spits out. It should be able to work without that file. What do you see when visiting http://localhost:8080/? Some how it works now, Don't know what I have done It might have been the Catalogmangare file I don't know? Before I got IlligalStateException I think it was generated because the eh-cache-2 wasn't alive... thats what the extended message said. But know it all works. cheers, LSD - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Thomas wrote: Stefano Some questions for you about cocoon. Sure. I have just poked around abit but what I find mostly is look at the examples. That is a good way to learn if you know some basic stuff. Yep, agreed. How dose the structure of the application looklike where to put files and folders ?? well, first of all, cocoon is, if you wish, a huge servlet. So, it looks like just any other j2ee webapp with a servlet container around. dynagump is prepackaged with jetty running a cocoon webapp, but it's really two things (and one could think about running dynagump in tomcat, if one wishes to do so) I like jetty better because it's smaller and easier to configure/embed and starts/stops faster. The cocoon specificities are mostly: 1) webapp/sitemap.xmap is where the pipelines are defined and where the URL - pipeline processing takes place (NOTE: sitemaps can nest other sitemaps, so their location could vary and you can have multiple of them) 2) webapp/WEB-INF/cocoon.xconf is where the cocoon configurations remain. You should not have to do anything there. Remeber that I'm comming from J2EE where every config file and folder has it's place I'm guessing it's the same here. What config files do I need to know about and what is ehcache-2. The ehcache-2 is never alive and all I get is an Error saying so. Thats my first error in geting dynagump to work. ehcache is the caching engine. cocoon is pretty agressive on caching. you might want to tweak the cocoon.xconf settings on caching if that still causes you troubles. One step at the time I'm on my way. Awesome. Note: dynagump is not the latest and greatest cocoon, so maybe there could be bugs that are already fixed. If you sound some others let me know. -- Stefano. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Hi every one ! So I'm setingup Gump and I think I'm done... The problem now is to setup some configuration that will generate good data... a litle help with that would be nice... just something that gives me different stuff that can be applied to different use-cases. More I have taken a look at the dynaGump but can't get it to woork the application is missing a Catalogmanager.properties. I've copied one from the samples of the cocoon source but don't know if I need configure it in anny special way. Stefano Some questions for you about cocoon. I have just poked around abit but what I find mostly is look at the examples. That is a good way to learn if you know some basic stuff. How dose the structure of the application looklike where to put files and folders ?? Remeber that I'm comming from J2EE where every config file and folder has it's place I'm guessing it's the same here. What config files do I need to know about and what is ehcache-2. The ehcache-2 is never alive and all I get is an Error saying so. Thats my first error in geting dynagump to work. One step at the time I'm on my way. Thanks for your help /Thomas - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Hi every one ! So I'm setingup Gump and I think I'm done... The problem now is to setup some configuration that will generate good data... a litle help with that would be nice... just something that gives me different stuff that can be applied to different use-cases. More I have taken a look at the dynaGump but can't get it to woork the application is missing a Catalogmanager.properties. I've copied one from the samples of the cocoon source but don't know if I need configure it in anny special way. Stefano Some questions for you about cocoon. I have just poked around abit but what I find mostly is look at the examples. That is a good way to learn if you know some basic stuff. How dose the structure of the application looklike where to put files and folders ?? Remeber that I'm comming from J2EE where every config file and folder has it's place I'm guessing it's the same here. What config files do I need to know about and what is ehcache-2. The ehcache-2 is never alive and all I get is an Error saying so. Thats my first error in geting dynagump to work. One step at the time I'm on my way. Thanks for your help /Thomas - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Thomas wrote: Hi every one ! Hi Thomas! More I have taken a look at the dynaGump but can't get it to woork the application is missing a Catalogmanager.properties. I've copied one from the samples of the cocoon source but don't know if I need configure it in anny special way. That has got to be the most common error or rather warning cocoon spits out. It should be able to work without that file. What do you see when visiting http://localhost:8080/? cheers, LSD - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Adam R. B. Jack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To my knowledge here are the best known candiates (plus some others I've heard discussed.) - Java JSP/Struts. - Cocoon (Stefano has spent significant time on this, he feels it is worth evaluating.) - mod_python (Leo has spent some time on this, he feels it is worth evaluating.) - PHP (why not?) because we'd have to install (security) updates too often for PHP 8-) Seriously, I don't see any reason to rule out PHP completely and would even throw in ASP.NET on mod_mono if Thomas is interested. Personally I'm currently stretched too thin to commit to anything. I do have quite a bit Struts experience and some ASP.NET/mod_mono. I've never used any of the three other technologies you've listed. I know this is needs to be focused project, with fixed time allocated to it. As such, these last two thoughts [webapp used for more than just presentation and creation of permanent URLs, different output formats] are probably overkill. Getting the data presented to the users is the only (first) goal. +1 Stefan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
On Jun 30, 2005, at 7:24 PM, Adam R. B. Jack wrote: To my knowledge here are the best known candiates (plus some others I've heard discussed.) - Java JSP/Struts. - Cocoon (Stefano has spent significant time on this, he feels it is worth evaluating.) - mod_python (Leo has spent some time on this, he feels it is worth evaluating.) - PHP (why not?) To toss another idea out there... I highly recommend Ruby on Rails - it's elegant, clean, and ties to a DB easily. Erik - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Some input from me about what I think of what technoligy to use. This is just my opinion and of corse I'm willing to learn something new if thats what you think would work the best. On Jun 30, 2005, at 7:24 PM, Adam R. B. Jack wrote: To my knowledge here are the best known candiates (plus some others I've heard discussed.) - Java JSP/Struts. Java and JSP + Struts I know well... the easy way to get a result. Java is my main programming language and I personaly think I know it well regarding webapplication in Java, J2EE and struts. - Cocoon (Stefano has spent significant time on this, he feels it is worth evaluating.) Cocoon: I have never used it but sounds like I can get som help from Stefano. So that might work for me to. - mod_python (Leo has spent some time on this, he feels it is worth evaluating.) mod_python: I have never used python, so that sound like a challange but challanges is just a good thing... It all depends on what I need to have finished at the end of summer of code. - PHP (why not?) PHP: I have done som work with PHP. But I rather prefer some type of Java or none script language before PHP. To toss another idea out there... I highly recommend Ruby on Rails - it's elegant, clean, and ties to a DB easily. Erik Ruby on Rails: never used it never even programed in Ruby. But the same gose here as for mod_python. To summarize this. I prefer a java based language and framework. The advantage of using mod_python is that alot of other thing in gump and around gump is written in python. I don't have anything against lerning something new but the result will take abit longer and would not be as good implemented as if had been Javabased. I don't know what and how much I need to do compleat the summer of code project. My intention and hope is that I can keep on working on this and be a part of the Gump project even after the summer of code. For the moment I'm setting Gump and I'm trying to get it to work. I'm also trying to get an over view of the database and what all the tables is. /Thomas - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Adam R. B. Jack wrote: Folks, please feel free to chip in your comments/reservations and perspectives on all of these to help Thomas decide. I suggest trying dynagump first. If it turns out that Thomas isn't able to get productive using dynagump, that's a sign that dynagump isn't a good idea (after all we want to make it easy to do this development!) and we can take a look at some other options. Based on my understanding of Thomas' background, something servlet-based would be next up on the list. We can run that alongside dynagump as part of the same codebase (dynagump is servlet-based as well, after all), and perhaps integrate the two in some way. *I* think python is undervalued for webapp development and there's no reason it can't work well. But I also think that java is the most mature webapp technology out there and cocoon is one of the best webapp frameworks out there (despite me not having much fun using it) so it'd be insane not to try and use it. cheers, Leo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
[your clock is screwed ;-)] Thomas wrote: Some input from me about what I think of what technoligy to use. This is just my opinion and of corse I'm willing to learn something new if thats what you think would work the best. I think what works best for you works best for us. On Jun 30, 2005, at 7:24 PM, Adam R. B. Jack wrote: To my knowledge here are the best known candiates (plus some others I've heard discussed.) - Java JSP/Struts. Java and JSP + Struts I know well... the easy way to get a result. Java is my main programming language and I personaly think I know it well regarding webapplication in Java, J2EE and struts. Cool. - Cocoon (Stefano has spent significant time on this, he feels it is worth evaluating.) Cocoon: I have never used it but sounds like I can get som help from Stefano. So that might work for me to. Great. - mod_python (Leo has spent some time on this, he feels it is worth evaluating.) mod_python: I have never used python, so that sound like a challange but challanges is just a good thing... It all depends on what I need to have finished at the end of summer of code. Learning python is easy (especially if you know java) but you don't have to. Gump3 is architected in a way so that different modules can be built with different languages, the idea was to capture more people that way. But I suggest you start reading the excellent dive into python (http://diveintopython.org/) just to get a sense of what it is. - PHP (why not?) PHP: I have done som work with PHP. But I rather prefer some type of Java or none script language before PHP. Nice to hear that ;-) To toss another idea out there... I highly recommend Ruby on Rails - it's elegant, clean, and ties to a DB easily. Erik Ruby on Rails: never used it never even programed in Ruby. But the same gose here as for mod_python. I heard good things on RoR, but nobody here knows Ruby and we are trying to increase the community size not decrease it ;-) To summarize this. I prefer a java based language and framework. The advantage of using mod_python is that alot of other thing in gump and around gump is written in python. I don't have anything against lerning something new but the result will take abit longer and would not be as good implemented as if had been Javabased. I don't know what and how much I need to do compleat the summer of code project. My intention and hope is that I can keep on working on this and be a part of the Gump project even after the summer of code. We would hope that to be the case too. So, make yourself at home, follow Leo's excellent directions and let us know how you feel when you get there. For the moment I'm setting Gump and I'm trying to get it to work. I'm also trying to get an over view of the database and what all the tables is. Great. -- Stefano. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Thomas et al, We need to pick a technology to use to display the contents of a database via a webapp. We are in the fortunate position of having more technologies available to use than we could wave a stick at. Clearly we could do the job with all of them. Let's explore them and come to a mechanism for you to decide which you want to use. I won't determine how you evaluate the 'best' choice, that will be your choice. At the end of the day much of OSS comes down to scratch what itches which is often translated to you do what you want, how you want, when you want 'cos nobody is paying you/tellign you what to do. I know this Google SoC case is slightly different, but the effective is there. Some *personal* thoughts that might factor into things are (1) which would you find the most fun (2) which would you learn the most doing (3) which would you benefit the most from learnng (4) which would you think you'd like to use again after this project. Added to that (1) which is the best fit to the requirements (2) which is the best fit to the community (Gump/ASF) (3) which is most likely to be maintained when you stop working on it [there is life after any committer] (4) what is the best fit for users (least resistence to install/use.) Again, we aren't trying to to be too academic -- we do want deliverable results -- but much at ASF (and especially Gump) is about the long haul, with the focus being on the community to support the code, not the code alone. To my knowledge here are the best known candiates (plus some others I've heard discussed.) - Java JSP/Struts. - Cocoon (Stefano has spent significant time on this, he feels it is worth evaluating.) - mod_python (Leo has spent some time on this, he feels it is worth evaluating.) - PHP (why not?) Clearly each of these (and there are plenty others) have strengths/weaknesses, and I don't profess to know them all. To help you make some determinations, here are some known requirements/thoughts for your project. - Gump3 presentation is simply about getting the data from the database onto the screen. That said, there are lofty goals for it (and Stefano has great insights here) that might lead to charting and/or graphics/graphs. Visualizing data isn't about dumping tables to the screen, but allowing a humans to easily navigate an interpret. (Do yourself a favour and search the archives for things marked [RT] in the subject). So, I suspect the technology will want good visualization support. - I could see the Gump3 webapp becoming a first point of contact w/ users, so I could see it becoming much more than presenation. For example it might need to go get output files for folks (for folks who don't have disk space to store these in the DB.) Heck, it might become a front end for folks to schedule runs/builds and/or kick of metadata parse checks. So, I suspect the technology needs to be easily integrated. - I could see this output of the webapp being data to reference (real-time and historically) with URLs having a permanance to them. I could see us generating RSS/Atom feeds from the webapp. I could see projects referencing their Gump Info on their home page, and/or behind a logo. As such, I think the technology needs full control over it's URL space. That all said, I know this is needs to be focused project, with fixed time allocated to it. As such, these last two thoughts are probably overkill. Getting the data presented to the users is the only (first) goal. Folks, please feel free to chip in your comments/reservations and perspectives on all of these to help Thomas decide. regards, Adam - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
