Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
Subject: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net From: Vic C [EMAIL PROTECTED] === http://www.softwarereality.com/programming/ejb/EJB_101Damnations.pdf Daniel Rall wrote: Aaron Smuts [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So, I'm driven to a bit of exaggeration and overstatement at times especially when criticizing over-hyped technology like EJB. I've got lots of problems with XML and JSP too, if anyone else wants to fight :) I got your back. ;-P - Dan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: EJB = bad = MS.net [People are stupid!]
Andrew C. Oliver wrote: There are times when a scalable remoteable solution is necessary. Granted these are 1 in 100 projects, (or fewer). Secondly, EJB is purely a bad implementation of this. Note how many good ones you're citing... I recommend we table this discussion, it has drawn on. EJB/J2EE bitch-fest is not something that has a logical conclusion. I suggest participation in the design and development of AltiRMI and AJB (sp on both?) is a more productive discussion. Slam EJB by getting something far better up on Jakarta. Go for itso far noone one the con side has provided any decent arguments about how/why EJBs are bad, just slamming WebLogic doesn't really make much of an argument. -Andy On Fri, 2002-02-22 at 23:22, Aaron Smuts wrote: With EJB you complicate the deployment, slow down the performance and save nothing except looking for middleware modules. Gee, I just don't know where I'd find a connection pool or a logger or a single phase transaction management system. Good thing I have Weblogic to save me so much time. I'm glad I only have to wait 5 minutes for the damn thing to restart. I've migrated my current application out of EJB's (weblogic) because they do nothing but slow down the application and the development life cycle. I don't like programming in xml and having to shutdown production to make patches. The appserver specific deployment files make them unportable and vendor dependent. Weblogic tries its best to lock you into T3 and its deployment. For most modest transactional needs, you can out build and out perform any appserver using the JDBC. You can't even get small result sets with reasonable performance using EJB. No matter what you try to do with EJB, I can provide a simpler, faster, more scalable, and cheaper solution. 1) CTO (or some manager) gets the idea the EJBs are cool (after reading a BEA press release) and decides that his team's next project will be done using EJBs - without any thought as to whether EJBs are the correct tool for the Job. Amen. This is exactly the problem. Aaron -- dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting http://www.multitask.com.au/developers -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: EJB = bad = MS.net [People are stupid!]
) or Tomcat/J2EE/EJB, etc. blows should be banned from this thread. These technologies are exactly what this email group is about so obviously we like something about them. We just want to share our work and make the technology better. From: Andrew C. Oliver Reply-To: Jakarta General List To: 'Jakarta General List' Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net [People are stupid!] Date: 23 Feb 2002 08:03:48 -0500 There are times when a scalable remoteable solution is necessary. Granted these are 1 in 100 projects, (or fewer). Secondly, EJB is purely a bad implementation of this. I recommend we table this discussion, it has drawn on. EJB/J2EE bitch-fest is not something that has a logical conclusion. I suggest participation in the design and development of AltiRMI and AJB (sp on both?) is a more productive discussion. Slam EJB by getting something far better up on Jakarta. -Andy On Fri, 2002-02-22 at 23:22, Aaron Smuts wrote: With EJB you complicate the deployment, slow down the performance and save nothing except looking for middleware modules. Gee, I just don't know where I'd find a connection pool or a logger or a single phase transaction management system. Good thing I have Weblogic to save me so much time. I'm glad I only have to wait 5 minutes for the damn thing to restart. I've migrated my current application out of EJB's (weblogic) because they do nothing but slow down the application and the development life cycle. I don't like programming in xml and having to shutdown production to make patches. The appserver specific deployment files make them unportable and vendor dependent. Weblogic tries its best to lock you into T3 and its deployment. For most modest transactional needs, you can out build and out perform any appserver using the JDBC. You can't even get small result sets with reasonable performance using EJB. No matter what you try to do with EJB, I can provide a simpler, faster, more scalable, and cheaper solution. 1) CTO (or some manager) gets the idea the EJBs are cool (after reading a BEA press release) and decides that his team's next project will be done using EJBs - without any thought as to whether EJBs are the correct tool for the Job. Amen. This is exactly the problem. Aaron -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: For additional commands, e-mail: -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: For additional commands, e-mail: _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
Knowing my qualifications here is my response to Aaron's post whom I have summarized with this one line from him; No matter what you try to do with EJB, I can provide a simpler, faster, more scalable, and cheaper solution. I was obviously overstating the matter. I guess I had too much wine. Ok. Let's be fair, 98% of what most people need from an appserver can be done in other ways. I think that comment was actually in reference to the specific features listed as beneficial about EJB. ? Wow, you should start your own company. Your obviously much smarter than the 100 or so developers that make Weblogic or the 50 or so that make JBoss, or the ? 100 ? or so that make Websphere, etc. Not arguing with you here. (These discussion just provoke stupid comments like that.) You can make a Java Bean container that can handle clustering, Oh ya, weblogic clustering is so nice. You have to practically take down the entire cluster in 6.0 to update. fail over, Got what I need in a load balancer and in JCS. There are some transactional failover features in appservers that are nice though. caching, Got it: JCS persistence, Got it: JDBC transactional services, Got what I need in the JDBC. security, etc. Got it: RBAC better than all those people? Most of this can be done fairly simply and most people just don't need what the appserver vendors are selling. If you had said 2 phase commit, then I'd make concessions. Wow, your the man. Thanks. If I could create a product by myself better than all those people and create a billion dollar company I would. Seems stupid not to? Kind of strange you call 'people' stupid Just to be clear. I never called anyone stupid. I never used the word. That was in the subject line that I replied to. I didn't notice it till someone else replied. I would have taken it out. (as I just did.) and claim you can do better than these teams at creating this monumental amount of complex code No. I use a good amount of clear code. yet you don't do it, even though it could bring you great wealth? Ok then, how about open source? Oh, I am a contributor to a couple of Jakarta projects but have no intension of building an appserver. Cheers, Aaron -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
So by your response I take it you don't know how I can submit a project to jakarta? Did you even read the whole post? Keep the politics off the discussion boards. Especially comments as such; Not arguing with you here. (These discussion just provoke stupid comments like that.). I guess good grammar is not indicative of intelligence. Besides, I was using sarcasm to make the point to help deflate your oversided ego. Your smarter than all the developers on every App server and my comment is stupid. Everyone that uses any J2EE technologies is a moron and your the smartest person ever to exist. Ok, fine. Whatever you want. Your a winner. Just keep the politics off the discussion thread. I've never contributed to jakarta or any open source forum but thought I would check it out and see what it's all about. With attitudes like this I'm beginning to think this might be a mistake. I run into enough egomaniacs in my job without dealing with these assholes when I'm just trying to help out the community for free. Why should I take shit when I'm not getting paid? This is exactly why politics should be off the forum. It's discouraging for people that want to get involved. From: Aaron Smuts [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Jakarta General List' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:26:37 -0500 Knowing my qualifications here is my response to Aaron's post whom I have summarized with this one line from him; No matter what you try to do with EJB, I can provide a simpler, faster, more scalable, and cheaper solution. I was obviously overstating the matter. I guess I had too much wine. Ok. Let's be fair, 98% of what most people need from an appserver can be done in other ways. I think that comment was actually in reference to the specific features listed as beneficial about EJB. ? Wow, you should start your own company. Your obviously much smarter than the 100 or so developers that make Weblogic or the 50 or so that make JBoss, or the ? 100 ? or so that make Websphere, etc. Not arguing with you here. (These discussion just provoke stupid comments like that.) You can make a Java Bean container that can handle clustering, Oh ya, weblogic clustering is so nice. You have to practically take down the entire cluster in 6.0 to update. fail over, Got what I need in a load balancer and in JCS. There are some transactional failover features in appservers that are nice though. caching, Got it: JCS persistence, Got it: JDBC transactional services, Got what I need in the JDBC. security, etc. Got it: RBAC better than all those people? Most of this can be done fairly simply and most people just don't need what the appserver vendors are selling. If you had said 2 phase commit, then I'd make concessions. Wow, your the man. Thanks. If I could create a product by myself better than all those people and create a billion dollar company I would. Seems stupid not to? Kind of strange you call 'people' stupid Just to be clear. I never called anyone stupid. I never used the word. That was in the subject line that I replied to. I didn't notice it till someone else replied. I would have taken it out. (as I just did.) and claim you can do better than these teams at creating this monumental amount of complex code No. I use a good amount of clear code. yet you don't do it, even though it could bring you great wealth? Ok then, how about open source? Oh, I am a contributor to a couple of Jakarta projects but have no intension of building an appserver. Cheers, Aaron -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
On Sat, 2002-02-23 at 20:07, Michael Lee wrote: So by your response I take it you don't know how I can submit a project to jakarta? Did you even read the whole post? Keep the politics off the discussion boards. Especially comments as such; Not arguing with you here. (These discussion just provoke stupid comments like that.). I guess good grammar is not indicative of intelligence. Besides, I was using sarcasm to make the point to help deflate your oversided ego. Your smarter than all the developers on every App server and my comment is stupid. Everyone that uses any J2EE technologies is a moron and your the smartest person ever to exist. Ok, fine. Whatever you want. Your a winner. Just keep the politics off the discussion thread. Ok, I think something was misinterpreted. I don't think Aaron was trying to incite any hostilities, I think he was just pointing out that there are alternatives. Let's try this again. There are a couple of OS options when it comes to persistence layers. There are a couple at SF: player.sourceforge.net (Scott Ambler based) objectbridge.sourceforge.net (Ambler, ODMG compliant working on JDO) There is one within the Turbine project here that does a simple table - object mapping called Torque and I believe there was discussion of another tool called Simper (sp?) that does something similiar and was brought up on the commons list. So you might want to contact some of these groups and see what you have compared with them and assess the situation. The most recent subprojects to be added to Jakarta were either sought after (Lucene, BCEL) or the person offering was very persistent in arguing their case and had an established project (POI). I've never contributed to jakarta or any open source forum but thought I would check it out and see what it's all about. With attitudes like this I'm beginning to think this might be a mistake. You can't base your decision on a dialog consisting of a small handful of email messages. I think we just had a misunderstanding stick around for a while longer and see what we're like. You're just lucky Jon didn't get to you first ;-) http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jon.html I run into enough egomaniacs in my job without dealing with these assholes when I'm just trying to help out the community for free. Why should I take shit when I'm not getting paid? We do it because we are part masochist, part capitalist and part altruist. You'll have to grow a thicker skin if you want to stick around. We're really not that bad. This is exactly why politics should be off the forum. It's discouraging for people that want to get involved. That's part of the game. This is largely a social forum so you have to deal with some of the personal issues along with technical ones. That's life at Jakarta. Welcome. From: Aaron Smuts [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Jakarta General List' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:26:37 -0500 Knowing my qualifications here is my response to Aaron's post whom I have summarized with this one line from him; No matter what you try to do with EJB, I can provide a simpler, faster, more scalable, and cheaper solution. I was obviously overstating the matter. I guess I had too much wine. Ok. Let's be fair, 98% of what most people need from an appserver can be done in other ways. I think that comment was actually in reference to the specific features listed as beneficial about EJB. ? Wow, you should start your own company. Your obviously much smarter than the 100 or so developers that make Weblogic or the 50 or so that make JBoss, or the ? 100 ? or so that make Websphere, etc. Not arguing with you here. (These discussion just provoke stupid comments like that.) You can make a Java Bean container that can handle clustering, Oh ya, weblogic clustering is so nice. You have to practically take down the entire cluster in 6.0 to update. fail over, Got what I need in a load balancer and in JCS. There are some transactional failover features in appservers that are nice though. caching, Got it: JCS persistence, Got it: JDBC transactional services, Got what I need in the JDBC. security, etc. Got it: RBAC better than all those people? Most of this can be done fairly simply and most people just don't need what the appserver vendors are selling. If you had said 2 phase commit, then I'd make concessions. Wow, your the man. Thanks. If I could create a product by myself better than all those people and create a billion dollar company I would. Seems stupid not to? Kind of strange you call 'people' stupid Just to be clear. I never called anyone stupid. I never used the word. That was in the subject line that I replied to. I didn't notice it till someone else replied. I would have taken it out. (as I
RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
I think its universally accepted that JSP sucks. I don't think anyone can hold an intelligent argument to the contrary (unless the typical corporate developer competency argument is used). That being said..I'm not sure this is the forum for such arguments. I'd like to invite you to the Triangle Java Users group lists www.trijug.org -- all are welcome. General Java discussion having nothing to do whatsoever with Jakarta really is more appropriate there then here. -Andy On Sat, 2002-02-23 at 21:37, Aaron Smuts wrote: Hi: I wasn't trying to be political at all. I've just been frustrated by my experiences with Weblogic, but I still use it: I generally off load image type conversion and PDF generation to the appserver. Please don't take the argument so personally. I'm not an egomaniac and I wasn't trying to insult you personally in any way. So, I'm driven to a bit of exaggeration and overstatement at times especially when criticizing over-hyped technology like EJB. I've got lots of problems with XML and JSP too, if anyone else wants to fight :) Cheers, Aaron -Original Message- From: Michael Lee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 1:07 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net So by your response I take it you don't know how I can submit a project to jakarta? Did you even read the whole post? Keep the politics off the discussion boards. Especially comments as such; Not arguing with you here. (These discussion just provoke stupid comments like that.). I guess good grammar is not indicative of intelligence. Besides, I was using sarcasm to make the point to help deflate your oversided ego. Your smarter than all the developers on every App server and my comment is stupid. Everyone that uses any J2EE technologies is a moron and your the smartest person ever to exist. Ok, fine. Whatever you want. Your a winner. Just keep the politics off the discussion thread. I've never contributed to jakarta or any open source forum but thought I would check it out and see what it's all about. With attitudes like this I'm beginning to think this might be a mistake. I run into enough egomaniacs in my job without dealing with these assholes when I'm just trying to help out the community for free. Why should I take shit when I'm not getting paid? This is exactly why politics should be off the forum. It's discouraging for people that want to get involved. From: Aaron Smuts [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Jakarta General List' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:26:37 -0500 Knowing my qualifications here is my response to Aaron's post whom I have summarized with this one line from him; No matter what you try to do with EJB, I can provide a simpler, faster, more scalable, and cheaper solution. I was obviously overstating the matter. I guess I had too much wine. Ok. Let's be fair, 98% of what most people need from an appserver can be done in other ways. I think that comment was actually in reference to the specific features listed as beneficial about EJB. ? Wow, you should start your own company. Your obviously much smarter than the 100 or so developers that make Weblogic or the 50 or so that make JBoss, or the ? 100 ? or so that make Websphere, etc. Not arguing with you here. (These discussion just provoke stupid comments like that.) You can make a Java Bean container that can handle clustering, Oh ya, weblogic clustering is so nice. You have to practically take down the entire cluster in 6.0 to update. fail over, Got what I need in a load balancer and in JCS. There are some transactional failover features in appservers that are nice though. caching, Got it: JCS persistence, Got it: JDBC transactional services, Got what I need in the JDBC. security, etc. Got it: RBAC better than all those people? Most of this can be done fairly simply and most people just don't need what the appserver vendors are selling. If you had said 2 phase commit, then I'd make concessions. Wow, your the man. Thanks. If I could create a product by myself better than all those people and create a billion dollar company I would. Seems stupid not to? Kind of strange you call 'people' stupid Just to be clear. I never called anyone stupid. I never used the word. That was in the subject line that I replied to. I didn't notice it till someone else replied. I would have taken it out. (as I just did.) and claim you can do better than these teams at creating this monumental amount of complex code No. I use a good amount of clear code. yet you
RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
There lies your problem Michael. . . Jakarta (believe it or not) doesn't want code they want communities of developers. If your interested in having a Jakarta project (and have Really thick skin and some patience;-) ) you probably will have to start it somewhere else (POI for instance started at www.superlinksoftware.com then moved to www.sourceforge.net then moved here), build you community and then get people here interested in sponsoring it. Ted Husted sent you some guidelines on that. As for keeping politics off of the listshow long have you been reading the lists ? ;-) I really think if you truly have what you say you should look into collaborating with Paul Hammant on EOB and AltRMI. Like you say -- its hard to build the super solution all by yourself.. -Andy On Sat, 2002-02-23 at 20:07, Michael Lee wrote: So by your response I take it you don't know how I can submit a project to jakarta? Did you even read the whole post? Keep the politics off the discussion boards. Especially comments as such; Not arguing with you here. (These discussion just provoke stupid comments like that.). I guess good grammar is not indicative of intelligence. Besides, I was using sarcasm to make the point to help deflate your oversided ego. Your smarter than all the developers on every App server and my comment is stupid. Everyone that uses any J2EE technologies is a moron and your the smartest person ever to exist. Ok, fine. Whatever you want. Your a winner. Just keep the politics off the discussion thread. I've never contributed to jakarta or any open source forum but thought I would check it out and see what it's all about. With attitudes like this I'm beginning to think this might be a mistake. I run into enough egomaniacs in my job without dealing with these assholes when I'm just trying to help out the community for free. Why should I take shit when I'm not getting paid? This is exactly why politics should be off the forum. It's discouraging for people that want to get involved. From: Aaron Smuts [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Jakarta General List' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:26:37 -0500 Knowing my qualifications here is my response to Aaron's post whom I have summarized with this one line from him; No matter what you try to do with EJB, I can provide a simpler, faster, more scalable, and cheaper solution. I was obviously overstating the matter. I guess I had too much wine. Ok. Let's be fair, 98% of what most people need from an appserver can be done in other ways. I think that comment was actually in reference to the specific features listed as beneficial about EJB. ? Wow, you should start your own company. Your obviously much smarter than the 100 or so developers that make Weblogic or the 50 or so that make JBoss, or the ? 100 ? or so that make Websphere, etc. Not arguing with you here. (These discussion just provoke stupid comments like that.) You can make a Java Bean container that can handle clustering, Oh ya, weblogic clustering is so nice. You have to practically take down the entire cluster in 6.0 to update. fail over, Got what I need in a load balancer and in JCS. There are some transactional failover features in appservers that are nice though. caching, Got it: JCS persistence, Got it: JDBC transactional services, Got what I need in the JDBC. security, etc. Got it: RBAC better than all those people? Most of this can be done fairly simply and most people just don't need what the appserver vendors are selling. If you had said 2 phase commit, then I'd make concessions. Wow, your the man. Thanks. If I could create a product by myself better than all those people and create a billion dollar company I would. Seems stupid not to? Kind of strange you call 'people' stupid Just to be clear. I never called anyone stupid. I never used the word. That was in the subject line that I replied to. I didn't notice it till someone else replied. I would have taken it out. (as I just did.) and claim you can do better than these teams at creating this monumental amount of complex code No. I use a good amount of clear code. yet you don't do it, even though it could bring you great wealth? Ok then, how about open source? Oh, I am a contributor to a couple of Jakarta projects but have no intension of building an appserver. Cheers, Aaron -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED
RE: EJB = bad = MS.net Sorry for rant
Sorry to all if my tone seemed harsh. This is just the 3rd thread I've seen in the 2 weeks or so since I've joined this email list bashing the very technologies we use in jakarta. I saw one saying Java sucks, another saying Java is dying because Sun won't release it open source(or something of that nature) and now this anti-J2EE/EJB-your a moron if you use it-thread. It seems to me that if I joined a list that pertains to jakarta java, J2EE type technologies then I wouldn't post messages bashing the very technologies the group exists to support. For example, I wouldn't join a Microsoft ASP technical forum to bash Microsoft or ASP. This is just why I would like to see the discussions center around supporting jakarta projects and not on the merits of them or their underlying technologies. I apoligize to Aaron for jumping the gun as to his character and using inappropriate language in this forum. I use it a lot outside of here though. And I enjoy it. I have a lot of problems with Java/J2EE/EJB/etc.also. I just don't think this is an appropriate forum. thanks, Mike PS: I got some good responses pertaining to jakarta projects. Thanks to all. I've written a ton of code, in addition to the persistence layer, that I plan to put on source forge. From: Aaron Smuts [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Michael Lee' [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 21:37:38 -0500 Hi: I wasn't trying to be political at all. I've just been frustrated by my experiences with Weblogic, but I still use it: I generally off load image type conversion and PDF generation to the appserver. Please don't take the argument so personally. I'm not an egomaniac and I wasn't trying to insult you personally in any way. So, I'm driven to a bit of exaggeration and overstatement at times especially when criticizing over-hyped technology like EJB. I've got lots of problems with XML and JSP too, if anyone else wants to fight :) Cheers, Aaron -Original Message- From: Michael Lee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 1:07 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net So by your response I take it you don't know how I can submit a project to jakarta? Did you even read the whole post? Keep the politics off the discussion boards. Especially comments as such; Not arguing with you here. (These discussion just provoke stupid comments like that.). I guess good grammar is not indicative of intelligence. Besides, I was using sarcasm to make the point to help deflate your oversided ego. Your smarter than all the developers on every App server and my comment is stupid. Everyone that uses any J2EE technologies is a moron and your the smartest person ever to exist. Ok, fine. Whatever you want. Your a winner. Just keep the politics off the discussion thread. I've never contributed to jakarta or any open source forum but thought I would check it out and see what it's all about. With attitudes like this I'm beginning to think this might be a mistake. I run into enough egomaniacs in my job without dealing with these assholes when I'm just trying to help out the community for free. Why should I take shit when I'm not getting paid? This is exactly why politics should be off the forum. It's discouraging for people that want to get involved. From: Aaron Smuts [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Jakarta General List' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: EJB = bad = MS.net Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:26:37 -0500 Knowing my qualifications here is my response to Aaron's post whom I have summarized with this one line from him; No matter what you try to do with EJB, I can provide a simpler, faster, more scalable, and cheaper solution. I was obviously overstating the matter. I guess I had too much wine. Ok. Let's be fair, 98% of what most people need from an appserver can be done in other ways. I think that comment was actually in reference to the specific features listed as beneficial about EJB. ? Wow, you should start your own company. Your obviously much smarter than the 100 or so developers that make Weblogic or the 50 or so that make JBoss, or the ? 100 ? or so that make Websphere, etc. Not arguing with you here. (These discussion just provoke stupid comments like that.) You can make a Java Bean container that can handle clustering, Oh ya, weblogic clustering is so nice. You have to practically take down the entire cluster in 6.0 to update. fail over, Got what I need in a load balancer and in JCS. There are some transactional failover features in appservers that are nice though. caching, Got it: JCS persistence, Got it: JDBC transactional services, Got what I need
Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
i like EJBs (note that i said like and not love). i think they have some applicability. however, a peeve of mine about EJBs and the spec is this claim of location independence. furthermore, the claim to location independence is eroding: note that in the 1.1 spec it claims: The client view of an entity bean is location independent. (8.1) and in the corresponding section of the 2.0 spec, this has evolved to the more mealy-mouthed: The client of an entity bean may be a remote client or the client may be a local client. the point of location independence is that a client should not be concerned about where the method call is taking place. but, this has been built into the spec from day one. (RemoteException, RemoteHome, . . . ). perhaps this is a trivial point, but it is misleading, misrepresentative, and is an example (IMHO) of how EJBs are successful at making things more complicated than they need to be. regards --e-- On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:55:52 +1100, dIon Gillard wrote: - location independence -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
Vic Cekvenich wrote: Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. Do you feel that the idea of an EJB-like system is bad, or just that EJBs specifically were badly designed? I would be interested to hear your thoughts on a better alternative. I feel that web programming is currently not using programmers' time very efficiently -- you have to write a lot of repetitive, routine code. It would be nice to find a more powerful way of expressing the logic of a website, so making the process less tedious (and saving money). -- Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
I personally think that a distributed remote system has great promise. I feel that the EJB implementation is messy, closed and propietary. Un saludo, Alex. -Mensaje original- De: Pete Chown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Enviado el: jueves 21 de febrero de 2002 14:09 Para: Jakarta General List Asunto: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net Vic Cekvenich wrote: Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. Do you feel that the idea of an EJB-like system is bad, or just that EJBs specifically were badly designed? I would be interested to hear your thoughts on a better alternative. I feel that web programming is currently not using programmers' time very efficiently -- you have to write a lot of repetitive, routine code. It would be nice to find a more powerful way of expressing the logic of a website, so making the process less tedious (and saving money). -- Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
So what does that me JBoss is? On Thu, 2002-02-21 at 08:19, Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro wrote: I personally think that a distributed remote system has great promise. I feel that the EJB implementation is messy, closed and propietary. Un saludo, Alex. -Mensaje original- De: Pete Chown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Enviado el: jueves 21 de febrero de 2002 14:09 Para: Jakarta General List Asunto: Re: EJB = bad = MS.net Vic Cekvenich wrote: Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. Do you feel that the idea of an EJB-like system is bad, or just that EJBs specifically were badly designed? I would be interested to hear your thoughts on a better alternative. I feel that web programming is currently not using programmers' time very efficiently -- you have to write a lot of repetitive, routine code. It would be nice to find a more powerful way of expressing the logic of a website, so making the process less tedious (and saving money). -- Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Austin Gonyou Systems Architect, CCNA Coremetrics, Inc. Phone: 512-698-7250 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is the part of a good shepherd to shear his flock, not to skin it. Latin Proverb -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: EJB = bad = MS.net - worrisome flow of ignorant off-topic advice on this board
I hope not many enterprise applications are built using this ignorant 'advice'. IBM argued against EJBs up until recently because of countless deficiencies in EJB container implementation in WebSphere 3.5.*. Since WebSphere 4.0 introduction, they have clearly warmed up to using EJBs in their best practices white papers. As any other technology, EJBs can be abused. If one mapped a fully normalized DB schema consisting of 500 data tables to 500 entity beans, this would be an idiotic architecture. In any case, this has nothing to do with MVC or Struts. I suggest members of this list stick to the main topic of discussion - Struts. Struts has nothing to do with EJBs. In a properly designed application, EJBs, DAOs or any other persistence related components shouldn't be accessed directly from presentation elements and components, such as JSP tags. Sticking closer to the topic of this list will allow to reduce the flow of postings to more reasonable levels. Best regards, Alex Esterkin = -Original Message- From: Vic Cekvenich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 12:42 To: Struts Users Mailing List Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: EJB = bad = MS.net Home page of Jakarta has this http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2 on this: http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java. Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC is all you need. Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on the next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net. EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP) lol, Vic -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: EJB = bad = MS.net
Hi, I am involved in a pretty large project (we have not really started coding yet). As far as I can tell, we seem to go with Struts + WSAD + EJBs Java + JSP. Am I right to interpret that you mean the combination of Struts and EJBs are problem prone? Please help me to clarify on this. Thank you very much, Yanhui -Original Message- From: Vic Cekvenich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:42 AM To: Struts Users Mailing List Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: EJB = bad = MS.net Home page of Jakarta has this http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2 on this: http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java. Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC is all you need. Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on the next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net. EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP) lol, Vic -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
Yu, Yanhui wrote: Hi, I am involved in a pretty large project (we have not really started coding yet). As far as I can tell, we seem to go with Struts + WSAD + EJBs Java + JSP. Am I right to interpret that you mean the combination of Struts and EJBs are problem prone? Please help me to clarify on this. Thank you very much, Yanhui Not at all. Having done this several times, Struts + EJBs are an easy fit, and force some discipline on the developers to separate their actions and business logic. -Original Message- From: Vic Cekvenich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:42 AM To: Struts Users Mailing List Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: EJB = bad = MS.net Home page of Jakarta has this http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2 on this: http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java. Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC is all you need. Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on the next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net. EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP) lol, Vic -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting http://www.multitask.com.au/developers -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
Agreed on that point. We went through a bit of testing to find out what we should do and *why* before deciding. It is a good feature. :) On Fri, 2002-02-22 at 16:04, dIon Gillard wrote: Yu, Yanhui wrote: Hi, I am involved in a pretty large project (we have not really started coding yet). As far as I can tell, we seem to go with Struts + WSAD + EJBs Java + JSP. Am I right to interpret that you mean the combination of Struts and EJBs are problem prone? Please help me to clarify on this. Thank you very much, Yanhui Not at all. Having done this several times, Struts + EJBs are an easy fit, and force some discipline on the developers to separate their actions and business logic. -Original Message- From: Vic Cekvenich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:42 AM To: Struts Users Mailing List Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: EJB = bad = MS.net Home page of Jakarta has this http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2 on this: http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java. Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC is all you need. Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on the next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net. EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP) lol, Vic -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting http://www.multitask.com.au/developers -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Austin Gonyou Systems Architect, CCNA Coremetrics, Inc. Phone: 512-698-7250 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is the part of a good shepherd to shear his flock, not to skin it. Latin Proverb -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
Struts works just fine with EJBs, along with any other standard Java technology. The discussion is about EJBs in general, independant of whether they are used with Struts or not. A good number of Struts developers do use EJBs, which is why so many people are contributing to this thread. -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY US -- Developing Java Web Applications with Struts -- Tel: +1 585 737-3463 -- Web: http://husted.com/about/services Yu, Yanhui wrote: Hi, I am involved in a pretty large project (we have not really started coding yet). As far as I can tell, we seem to go with Struts + WSAD + EJBs Java + JSP. Am I right to interpret that you mean the combination of Struts and EJBs are problem prone? Please help me to clarify on this. Thank you very much, Yanhui -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
That sounds more like opinion than fact. EJB's seem to work fine, and do a good job, where they fit. Why would you say that if you use EJBs you'll have to use .CRAP? On Wed, 2002-02-20 at 11:42, Vic Cekvenich wrote: Home page of Jakarta has this http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2 on this: http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java. Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC is all you need. Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on the next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net. EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP) lol, Vic -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Austin Gonyou Systems Architect, CCNA Coremetrics, Inc. Phone: 512-698-7250 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is the part of a good shepherd to shear his flock, not to skin it. Latin Proverb -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
EJB = bad = MS.net
Home page of Jakarta has this http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2 on this: http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java. Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC is all you need. Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on the next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net. EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP) lol, Vic -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: EJB = bad = MS.net
Vic Cekvenich wrote: Home page of Jakarta has this http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0130.2 on this: http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03376.html I agree. Doing EJBs is bad on many levels and creates more problems. Avoid EJB if you want to stay in Java. Alternative is to just use Struts + TomCat + RowSet (or DAO if you are doing something simple or small) and done. This is the sweet spot. MVC is all you need. Alternative, do EJBs and your organization WILL switch to MS .NET on the next project, leave J2EE, and you have to learn VB.net. EJBs are for newbies. (If you need middleware (very rare) use SOAP) Thanks for the convincing argument. So tell me how using Struts+Tomcat+RowSet you get: - location independence - distributed processing - failover and clustering support - transactional object behaviour for non-data classes - pooled business objects Ans since you're using SOAP, how do you handle things like massive object creation issues on the SOAP Server? Write all that infrastructure again? Sure why not. -- dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting http://www.multitask.com.au/developers -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
