Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?
I don't have time to catch up on the whole thread yet, but https://neo900.org/ should be interesting. The older n900 phone is quite open as well. Both [will] run an operating system called Maemo. The neo900 solves some of the issues in current phones like the modem sharing memory space with the main CPU. I am highly interested in one myself, but don't think I'll be able to get an order in... hopefully another run happens :) Beware that the device OS may not be shipped in a completely working state. Some assembly required. As for how to make the device usable: I had been trying for some time to get Android running under KVM. Currently I have an ARM board which has a similar chip to the one my phone has. Sadly I can't figure out some bootloader and driver shenanigans so it doesn't seem like that will ever work. The neo900's processor *might* have what is needed to do that efficiently - ARM TrustZone - and if it does I was going to try it if/when I get one, as a replacement for Maemo (which is great and all but doesn't have such a large userbase).
Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?
On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 11:28:18PM -0500, Dale wrote
What version of Firefox are you using? I've seen some changes made
to Firefox but nothing that drastic. I'm just curious if maybe I'm
still running a older not affected version.
My reason for asking. I'm volunteer on staff at a social site.
I have several accounts there. Firefox, especially giving the
addons it has, is the best option for me to use to have multiple
profiles open at one time. Plus, I don't need the email feature
for that either. If something ugly and nasty is coming, I need to
start figuring out what I can do to work around this or something
else to use.
I don't know your definition of ugly; everybody has their own idea.
Australis came in approx Firefox 29. After struggling with the
lobotomized interface for a while, I executed 2 commands...
emerge --unmerge firefox
emerge seamonkey
The Australis top menu bar is thicker, so that it's easier to tap on a
tablet... so what. They've removed text from the File Edit View etc...
menu. Instead, they've inserted a bunch of heiroglyphics/icons. A lot
of customizability has been removed. Put it this way... if I wanted to
use Chrome(ium), I'd use Chrome(ium) in the first place.
There are now some Firefox addons which try to restore the classic
look. The fact that there's demand for them is a sad commentary on the
new-and-improved UI.
Seamonkey has the classic look and has an Gentoo ebuild. The Palemoon
fork is now available for linux too. I don't see an ebuild in portage.
You either have to download the generic x86_64 version, or pull down the
tarball from Sourceforge, and build locally if you want optimization
and full feature control.
fart=old
Going way back into the days of DOS, I remember when Wordstar 3.3 used
to be the most popular word processor. Then they brought out the
new-and-improved Wordstar 2000 version with drop-down menus instead of
{CTRL} key combos. It fell off the public radar soon afterwards. This
is what the Australis fiasco reminds me of.
/fart
--
Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org
I don't run desktop environments; I run useful applications
Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?
On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 11:42 PM, Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org wrote: Linux is a desktop OS. I hope it remains that way. Uh, Linux is a kernel, and even GNU is really a collection of shell-oriented tools, which can be run from Android just fine. So Android IS Linux, at least as much as Gentoo is, or your DVR, or your car radio, etc. I think we have to get over the whole Linux was figured out in 1996 and anything different from then is bad thing. -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?
2015-06-29 14:14 GMT-06:00 behrouz khosravi bz.khosr...@gmail.com: I know what you mean. This is all more or less true, but what can we do in this situation? I will try to move toward whatever promotes openness, and please do not tell me that ubuntu is not more open that android. In android I cant even have pure native apps! some parts of an application should always be in java. You can run native programs, you might not be able to run X programs since android already has surfaceflinger handling the display, and I haven tried it but qt can be used to build apps using C++, also with the comming replacement of dalvik(jit) by art(aot), the apps will run as native.
Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 07:46:59PM +0200, Frank Steinmetzger wrote: Jolla do a phone which is Linux based. No idea if this would suit your needs but may be worth a look. It's GUI is good and it uses Wayland. Not sure how open it is! I second Jolla. FWIW, I consider buying one myself if and when my current Android¹ finally kicks the bucket. As far as I already know about its Sailfish OS: you can install native (processor native, not bytecode native, i.e. C) programs via RPM package management and it runs pulse audio underneath, as one example of standard linux software. Oh and I forgot: Jolla has its root in MeeGo, as it was founded in part by former team members of Nokia’s MeeGo team. Graphically it builds upon Qt. -- Gruß | Greetings | Qapla’ Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network. Freedom for the pavements -- death to the dogs! signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?
On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 09:42:58PM +0100, john wrote: behrouz khosravi bz.khosr...@gmail.com wrote: If you build/install Android on a device, then it only contains what you put there, and you can just as easily remove it. If you let somebody else build/install android on a device and not give you root access, then it is painful. […] Your problem isn't with Android the OS. Your problem is with the experience your phone vendor is giving you. All that lockdown stuff that you seem to hate is 100% supported by the Linux kernel - you're just not turning it on with a typical distro install. […] For a mobile OS your life is made even more difficult by Android, since many who would tend to write a competing OS probably consider it good enough. I'm really not interested in yet another android so much as more open hardware to run android on. Vendors are getting better about allowing unlocking, but driver support/etc is still a mess. Oh, and I don't like the general move of APIs into Google Play Services. That really needs to be split into two applications. […] I know what you mean. This is all more or less true, but what can we do in this situation? I will try to move toward whatever promotes openness, and please do not tell me that ubuntu is not more open that android. In android I cant even have pure native apps! some parts of an application should always be in java. Jolla do a phone which is Linux based. No idea if this would suit your needs but may be worth a look. It's GUI is good and it uses Wayland. Not sure how open it is! I second Jolla. FWIW, I consider buying one myself if and when my current Android¹ finally kicks the bucket. As far as I already know about its Sailfish OS: you can install native (processor native, not bytecode native, i.e. C) programs via RPM package management and it runs pulse audio underneath, as one example of standard linux software. It does not have high-power hardware like high-end androids, but similar to Crapple devices – thanks to the OS *and* userspace running natively – its medium-range hardware is more than andequate to run everything smoothly. And if you *do* need Android software (like I would with Osmand), you can actually run it on Jolla, too, including stores like F-Droid. What still holds me off a little is that – in my view – 4½″ is already too big for a really mobile device. I’d consider around 4″ to be the maximum to comfortably fit in any pocket. But in the end, I see hardly any alternative (for me of course). Plus my money stays on the continent. ;-Þ ¹ A cheap Huawei from early 2013, 3.5″, running CyanogenMod with Android 4.2. It has a puny single-core and is specced at the low end, but it still runs and suits my needs. -- Gruß | Greetings | Qapla’ Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network. Every day has the same length, only a different width. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?
On 30 June 2015 1:44:24 AM AEST, behrouz khosravi bz.khosr...@gmail.com wrote: It sounds like your problem isn't with Android (which is mostly FOSS - or at least the parts you're dealing with here are), but with the bootloader on your phone (which is proprietary). No, actually my problem is that why an operating system can have decision on what types of apps can I have on my computer. if it is foss enough why I am not able to remove everything from my system easily. I believe when we have free operating system, when can aim for free hardware. I just hope ubuntu would be a help to open the mobile market like the way it helped in desktop. I think that part of the problem is the diversity of hardware in the ARM ecosystem and that much of the drivers needed are not maintained in future kernels, making it difficult to support at a community level. FOSS developers seem to mostly be stuck in X11-land - it scratches their itch which tends to be on the desktop. While touch screen is just another input device the fact is that you need to design your entire application UI around it. ... why do you thinks some foss user interfaces can not be created for this situation? I just hope someday mobile market whould be open. Have you seen the Neo900? Its based on the old Nokia N900 and the maemo software. The OS is a debian variant, I believe. http://neo900.org/ -- :b
Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?
On 29/06/15 21:03, behrouz khosravi wrote: I believe there was an effort to get Gentoo Prefix running on Android as part of GSoC. I've yet to try it myself but you might find that useful. I doubt it runs x11, but your typical x11 application isn't really going to work well on a smartphone anyway unless you get a bluetooth mouse/keyboard for it, and a magnifying glass. I love to get ride of android altogether! I would love to see a platform open enough that I am able to install my bootloader on it easily and boot what I prefer using a usb flash memory. This is what I consider as the linux or more appropriately free software ecosystem. It is obvious that we are far from this but I think that we deserve it anyways. I dont know whay we are not there yet, touch screen is just another input device, baseband modulator and demodulators are just another device attached to the CPU. There is an android app that allows you to run a gentoo image. I didn't try to go past the shell into a GUI yet ... should be possible. The problem I had was on trying to update a package for security reasons I hit some critical item that was missing out of the android kernel config so I'll have to build a custom one :( Will get back it some day, but amazing none the less. BillK
Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?
On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 9:03 AM, behrouz khosravi bz.khosr...@gmail.com wrote: I love to get ride of android altogether! I would love to see a platform open enough that I am able to install my bootloader on it easily and boot what I prefer using a usb flash memory. This is what I consider as the linux or more appropriately free software ecosystem. It sounds like your problem isn't with Android (which is mostly FOSS - or at least the parts you're dealing with here are), but with the bootloader on your phone (which is proprietary). A vendor can just as easily lock down a PC so that it will only run a version of Ubuntu 14 that they issue, without a lot of hacking away at it (and that is only possible because Ubuntu isn't really designed to be secure against such things - if they went to something with a signed /usr and noexec everything else and used kernel signature verification then you're fully locked in). I dont know whay we are not there yet, touch screen is just another input device, baseband modulator and demodulators are just another device attached to the CPU. FOSS developers seem to mostly be stuck in X11-land - it scratches their itch which tends to be on the desktop. While touch screen is just another input device the fact is that you need to design your entire application UI around it. Likewise there are a lot of other considerations when going mobile, like syncronization of data. A lot of FOSS software isn't really designed around a paradigm of working with the same data with multiple devices. There is no cloud equivalent to LibreOffice yet either. Another challenge is that our most popular licenses (GPL) are designed around desktop applications and not the cloud. That means that I can take LibreOffice, make a million changes, give it a web UI, launch a Google Docs competitor, and not release the source code to anybody, since I'm not redistributing the binary. So, when companies do leverage FOSS in the cloud we don't get the benefits. If everybody exclusively used AGPLv3 for their work, then we'd probably see a lot more FOSS investment in cloud-based software. -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?
I believe there was an effort to get Gentoo Prefix running on Android as part of GSoC. I've yet to try it myself but you might find that useful. I doubt it runs x11, but your typical x11 application isn't really going to work well on a smartphone anyway unless you get a bluetooth mouse/keyboard for it, and a magnifying glass. I love to get ride of android altogether! I would love to see a platform open enough that I am able to install my bootloader on it easily and boot what I prefer using a usb flash memory. This is what I consider as the linux or more appropriately free software ecosystem. It is obvious that we are far from this but I think that we deserve it anyways. I dont know whay we are not there yet, touch screen is just another input device, baseband modulator and demodulators are just another device attached to the CPU.
Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?
On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 7:54 AM, behrouz khosravi bz.khosr...@gmail.com wrote: I am eagerly waiting for seeing the traditional linux ecosystem on phones and tablet. I hate Android and I think it is not what we deserve to have on our hardware. I believe there was an effort to get Gentoo Prefix running on Android as part of GSoC. I've yet to try it myself but you might find that useful. I doubt it runs x11, but your typical x11 application isn't really going to work well on a smartphone anyway unless you get a bluetooth mouse/keyboard for it, and a magnifying glass. If anything I could see linux applications moving more in the direction of Android, or at least KDE/Plasma. I don't care for getting rid of mouse-oriented UIs on desktops unless they're netbooks (ie Unity), but the idea of sandboxed applications is a good one, and aligns with the container direction the server world is moving in (I've only been happy with moving services to containers on my Gentoo box). If your browser can't do anything but set bookmarks and write to the downloads folder and that is enforced by the kernel, then your attack surface is greatly reduced. -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?
It sounds like your problem isn't with Android (which is mostly FOSS - or at least the parts you're dealing with here are), but with the bootloader on your phone (which is proprietary). No, actually my problem is that why an operating system can have decision on what types of apps can I have on my computer. if it is foss enough why I am not able to remove everything from my system easily. I believe when we have free operating system, when can aim for free hardware. I just hope ubuntu would be a help to open the mobile market like the way it helped in desktop. FOSS developers seem to mostly be stuck in X11-land - it scratches their itch which tends to be on the desktop. While touch screen is just another input device the fact is that you need to design your entire application UI around it. ... why do you thinks some foss user interfaces can not be created for this situation? I just hope someday mobile market whould be open.
Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?
* behrouz khosravi bz.khosr...@gmail.com [150629 11:45]: It sounds like your problem isn't with Android (which is mostly FOSS - or at least the parts you're dealing with here are), but with the bootloader on your phone (which is proprietary). No, actually my problem is that why an operating system can have decision on what types of apps can I have on my computer. if it is foss enough why I am not able to remove everything from my system easily. I believe when we have free operating system, when can aim for free hardware. I just hope ubuntu would be a help to open the mobile market like the way it helped in desktop. I assume you mean that you can't remove system and OEM apps? It's not really the OS that's keeping you from controlling everything, it's the choices your OEM is making. Make sure you have open hardware and then install your own firmware. Look at Cryogenmod (http://www.cyanogenmod.org/) if you don't want to roll it all yourself or for examples. Todd
Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?
On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 11:44 AM, behrouz khosravi bz.khosr...@gmail.com wrote: It sounds like your problem isn't with Android (which is mostly FOSS - or at least the parts you're dealing with here are), but with the bootloader on your phone (which is proprietary). No, actually my problem is that why an operating system can have decision on what types of apps can I have on my computer. if it is foss enough why I am not able to remove everything from my system easily. If you build/install Android on a device, then it only contains what you put there, and you can just as easily remove it. If you let somebody else build/install android on a device and not give you root access, then it is painful. If you build/install Gentoo on a device, then it only contains what you put there, and you can just as easily remove it. If you let me build/install Gentoo on your device and not give you root access, then it is painful. If you let me reflash the firmware on your Gentoo system so that it uses my UEFI keys and firmware update keys and doesn't let you change them, and I set it up with a bootloader that checks your kernel+initramfs signatures and decrypts the rest of your hard drive using a TPM-supplied key and a verified boot path, and an initramfs that checks the signature on your /usr and mounts everything else noexec, then you're going to have some serious headaches. And yes, you actually can do all of this with Gentoo, though almost nobody bothers (ChromeOS is based on Gentoo and does use a variation on this, with licensed devices having a switch to disable the signature checks). I'd have to check but I think Linux actually supports (maybe via a patch) signature verification on execing images, in which case I can let you mount whatever you want +x and you still won't be able to run your own stuff. Your problem isn't with Android the OS. Your problem is with the experience your phone vendor is giving you. All that lockdown stuff that you seem to hate is 100% supported by the Linux kernel - you're just not turning it on with a typical distro install. FOSS developers seem to mostly be stuck in X11-land - it scratches their itch which tends to be on the desktop. While touch screen is just another input device the fact is that you need to design your entire application UI around it. ... why do you thinks some foss user interfaces can not be created for this situation? I'm not saying that they cannot be created. I'm simply pointing out that nobody is bothering to do so. Anybody can write a web-based MUA comparable to Gmail or a web-based replacement to Google Docs, and release it as FOSS. However, it takes a lot of work and for various reasons most seem content to use an X11-based version of each. In the case of LibreOffice I think the origins are actually in software that was intended to be sold commercially, but failed (which is probably why they've been trying to cleanup the code for years). For a mobile OS your life is made even more difficult by Android, since many who would tend to write a competing OS probably consider it good enough. I'm really not interested in yet another android so much as more open hardware to run android on. Vendors are getting better about allowing unlocking, but driver support/etc is still a mess. Oh, and I don't like the general move of APIs into Google Play Services. That really needs to be split into two applications. One would provide APIs for stuff actually related to Google (like Google authentication, buying stuff on the Play Store, Google Wallet, and so on), and that could be closed. The other would provide all the stuff like WebView APIs where rapid updates are desirable, and it should be FOSS. -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?
If you build/install Android on a device, then it only contains what you put there, and you can just as easily remove it. If you let somebody else build/install android on a device and not give you root access, then it is painful. If you build/install Gentoo on a device, then it only contains what you put there, and you can just as easily remove it. If you let me build/install Gentoo on your device and not give you root access, then it is painful. If you let me reflash the firmware on your Gentoo system so that it uses my UEFI keys and firmware update keys and doesn't let you change them, and I set it up with a bootloader that checks your kernel+initramfs signatures and decrypts the rest of your hard drive using a TPM-supplied key and a verified boot path, and an initramfs that checks the signature on your /usr and mounts everything else noexec, then you're going to have some serious headaches. And yes, you actually can do all of this with Gentoo, though almost nobody bothers (ChromeOS is based on Gentoo and does use a variation on this, with licensed devices having a switch to disable the signature checks). I'd have to check but I think Linux actually supports (maybe via a patch) signature verification on execing images, in which case I can let you mount whatever you want +x and you still won't be able to run your own stuff. Your problem isn't with Android the OS. Your problem is with the experience your phone vendor is giving you. All that lockdown stuff that you seem to hate is 100% supported by the Linux kernel - you're just not turning it on with a typical distro install. FOSS developers seem to mostly be stuck in X11-land - it scratches their itch which tends to be on the desktop. While touch screen is just another input device the fact is that you need to design your entire application UI around it. ... why do you thinks some foss user interfaces can not be created for this situation? I'm not saying that they cannot be created. I'm simply pointing out that nobody is bothering to do so. Anybody can write a web-based MUA comparable to Gmail or a web-based replacement to Google Docs, and release it as FOSS. However, it takes a lot of work and for various reasons most seem content to use an X11-based version of each. In the case of LibreOffice I think the origins are actually in software that was intended to be sold commercially, but failed (which is probably why they've been trying to cleanup the code for years). For a mobile OS your life is made even more difficult by Android, since many who would tend to write a competing OS probably consider it good enough. I'm really not interested in yet another android so much as more open hardware to run android on. Vendors are getting better about allowing unlocking, but driver support/etc is still a mess. Oh, and I don't like the general move of APIs into Google Play Services. That really needs to be split into two applications. One would provide APIs for stuff actually related to Google (like Google authentication, buying stuff on the Play Store, Google Wallet, and so on), and that could be closed. The other would provide all the stuff like WebView APIs where rapid updates are desirable, and it should be FOSS. I know what you mean. This is all more or less true, but what can we do in this situation? I will try to move toward whatever promotes openness, and please do not tell me that ubuntu is not more open that android. In android I cant even have pure native apps! some parts of an application should always be in java.
Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?
On Tue, 30 Jun 2015 00:44:23 +0430 behrouz khosravi bz.khosr...@gmail.com wrote: If you build/install Android on a device, then it only contains what you put there, and you can just as easily remove it. If you let somebody else build/install android on a device and not give you root access, then it is painful. If you build/install Gentoo on a device, then it only contains what you put there, and you can just as easily remove it. If you let me build/install Gentoo on your device and not give you root access, then it is painful. If you let me reflash the firmware on your Gentoo system so that it uses my UEFI keys and firmware update keys and doesn't let you change them, and I set it up with a bootloader that checks your kernel+initramfs signatures and decrypts the rest of your hard drive using a TPM-supplied key and a verified boot path, and an initramfs that checks the signature on your /usr and mounts everything else noexec, then you're going to have some serious headaches. And yes, you actually can do all of this with Gentoo, though almost nobody bothers (ChromeOS is based on Gentoo and does use a variation on this, with licensed devices having a switch to disable the signature checks). I'd have to check but I think Linux actually supports (maybe via a patch) signature verification on execing images, in which case I can let you mount whatever you want +x and you still won't be able to run your own stuff. Your problem isn't with Android the OS. Your problem is with the experience your phone vendor is giving you. All that lockdown stuff that you seem to hate is 100% supported by the Linux kernel - you're just not turning it on with a typical distro install. FOSS developers seem to mostly be stuck in X11-land - it scratches their itch which tends to be on the desktop. While touch screen is just another input device the fact is that you need to design your entire application UI around it. ... why do you thinks some foss user interfaces can not be created for this situation? I'm not saying that they cannot be created. I'm simply pointing out that nobody is bothering to do so. Anybody can write a web-based MUA comparable to Gmail or a web-based replacement to Google Docs, and release it as FOSS. However, it takes a lot of work and for various reasons most seem content to use an X11-based version of each. In the case of LibreOffice I think the origins are actually in software that was intended to be sold commercially, but failed (which is probably why they've been trying to cleanup the code for years). For a mobile OS your life is made even more difficult by Android, since many who would tend to write a competing OS probably consider it good enough. I'm really not interested in yet another android so much as more open hardware to run android on. Vendors are getting better about allowing unlocking, but driver support/etc is still a mess. Oh, and I don't like the general move of APIs into Google Play Services. That really needs to be split into two applications. One would provide APIs for stuff actually related to Google (like Google authentication, buying stuff on the Play Store, Google Wallet, and so on), and that could be closed. The other would provide all the stuff like WebView APIs where rapid updates are desirable, and it should be FOSS. I know what you mean. This is all more or less true, but what can we do in this situation? I will try to move toward whatever promotes openness, and please do not tell me that ubuntu is not more open that android. In android I cant even have pure native apps! some parts of an application should always be in java. Jolla do a phone which is Linux based. No idea if this would suit your needs but may be worth a look. It's GUI is good and it uses Wayland. Not sure how open it is! John D Maunder
Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?
On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 05:33:08PM +0430, behrouz khosravi wrote I love to get ride of android altogether! I would love to see a platform open enough that I am able to install my bootloader on it easily and boot what I prefer using a usb flash memory. This is what I consider as the linux or more appropriately free software ecosystem. It is obvious that we are far from this but I think that we deserve it anyways. I dont know whay we are not there yet, touch screen is just another input device, baseband modulator and demodulators are just another device attached to the CPU. Linux is a desktop OS. I hope it remains that way. My main worry is that some devs are pulling a Microsoft and bastardizing the desktop UI to make it touch compatable. Firefox has changed to the Atrocious^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Austraulis GUI. In plain English, it sucks. I've switched to Seamonkey to keep the old interface. If you want a smartphone/tablet without Android, I recommend rooting the device, and having CyanogenMod installed. It's Android without the Google-garbage. A selection of FOSS apps is available at https://f-droid.org/ Because CyanogenMod is based on Android, it can run native Android apps from Google Play. -- Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org I don't run desktop environments; I run useful applications
Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?
Walter Dnes wrote: On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 05:33:08PM +0430, behrouz khosravi wrote I love to get ride of android altogether! I would love to see a platform open enough that I am able to install my bootloader on it easily and boot what I prefer using a usb flash memory. This is what I consider as the linux or more appropriately free software ecosystem. It is obvious that we are far from this but I think that we deserve it anyways. I dont know whay we are not there yet, touch screen is just another input device, baseband modulator and demodulators are just another device attached to the CPU. Linux is a desktop OS. I hope it remains that way. My main worry is that some devs are pulling a Microsoft and bastardizing the desktop UI to make it touch compatable. Firefox has changed to the Atrocious^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Austraulis GUI. In plain English, it sucks. I've switched to Seamonkey to keep the old interface. If you want a smartphone/tablet without Android, I recommend rooting the device, and having CyanogenMod installed. It's Android without the Google-garbage. A selection of FOSS apps is available at https://f-droid.org/ Because CyanogenMod is based on Android, it can run native Android apps from Google Play. What version of Firefox are you using? I've seen some changes made to Firefox but nothing that drastic. I'm just curious if maybe I'm still running a older not affected version. My reason for asking. I'm volunteer on staff at a social site. I have several accounts there. Firefox, especially giving the addons it has, is the best option for me to use to have multiple profiles open at one time. Plus, I don't need the email feature for that either. If something ugly and nasty is coming, I need to start figuring out what I can do to work around this or something else to use. Dale :-) :-)
