Re: [Gimp-developer] [long] Suggestions + Patch, Redo (please dontflame), Part 1
On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 05:06:00PM +0200, David Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, the two big platforms where the GIMP will be used in the future are GNOME and KDE. Both of those follow the HIG guideline of Ctrl-Shift-Z. On windows, the main alternative app (photoshop) uses the same shortcut. While I totally agree to your agruments about following existing standards and/or practise, in Gimp we have the additional problem that ctrl-shift-z is not very ergonomical. Unlike word processors, undo-redo (repeatedly) is quite a normal and very common operation with gimp to compare operations or filters. -- -==- | ==-- _ | ---==---(_)__ __ __ Marc Lehmann +-- --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / [EMAIL PROTECTED] |e| -=/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ XX11-RIPE --+ The choice of a GNU generation | | ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [long] Suggestions + Patch, Redo (pleasedont flame), Part 1
On Thu, 2003-06-26 at 03:21, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 05:06:00PM +0200, David Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, the two big platforms where the GIMP will be used in the future are GNOME and KDE. Both of those follow the HIG guideline of Ctrl-Shift-Z. On windows, the main alternative app (photoshop) uses the same shortcut. While I totally agree to your agruments about following existing standards and/or practise, in Gimp we have the additional problem that ctrl-shift-z is not very ergonomical. Unlike word processors, undo-redo (repeatedly) is quite a normal and very common operation with gimp to compare operations or filters. The unfortunate thing for GIMP is that Shift is not quite the 'invert' keybinding (undo/redo). In other applications this works extremely well because the shift key is the invert-keybinding, but for some reason we have Ctrl (dodge/burn, sharpen/blur, FG/BG fill, horizontal/vertical flip ...). If we were to be consistent, this would have changed so that the shift key is again again the invertor. But this would mean a lot of replacing of Ctrl/Shift throughout the tools. I, for one, would welcome some thought put into consistency. -- Jakub Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Gimp-developer] [long] Suggestions + Patch, Redo (please dontflame), Part 1
On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 03:21:03AM +0200, Marc A. Lehmann wrote: Well, the two big platforms where the GIMP will be used in the future are GNOME and KDE. Both of those follow the HIG guideline of Ctrl-Shift-Z. On windows, the main alternative app (photoshop) uses the same shortcut. While I totally agree to your agruments about following existing standards and/or practise, in Gimp we have the additional problem that ctrl-shift-z is not very ergonomical. Unlike word processors, undo-redo (repeatedly) is quite a normal and very common operation with gimp to compare operations or filters. Why not simply (?) use both keystrokes? Bye, Tino. -- * LINUX - Where do you want to be tomorrow? * http://www.tu-chemnitz.de/linux/tag/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Suggestions + Patch, Redo - Part 1
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ( Marc) (A.) (Lehmann ) wrote: On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 05:06:00PM +0200, David Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, the two big platforms where the GIMP will be used in the future are GNOME and KDE. Both of those follow the HIG guideline of Ctrl-Shift-Z. On windows, the main alternative app (photoshop) uses the same shortcut. While I totally agree to your agruments about following existing standards and/or practise, in Gimp we have the additional problem that ctrl-shift-z is not very ergonomical. Unlike word processors, undo-redo (repeatedly) is quite a normal and very common operation with gimp to compare operations or filters. BTW, an area in which GIMP just TOTALLY SMASHES OUT Corel Photo Paint 9 - the stuff I had to use before managing to swtch at work. In that crappy program, the Undo history is erasen after a couple of seconds of idle activity, sometimes randomly. Which means one can never be SHURE if the changes of a filter will possibly be undoable. Also, that crappy program will erase the undo history after File Save actions. That turns very difficult to save a version of an image with a filter applied, and them go back to working on the image without that filter. Anyway, I will have no say on what Key I'd prefer for the GIMP Undo at this time. Both CTRL + R and Shift + Ctrl + Z have good arguments. Just please, do keep Ctrl + Alt + Z out of question, it is hard to reach and ALT do indeed have some issues in the KDE enviromment. And, anyway, one of the first things I teach to one who is learning the GIMP is the dinamic shortcut allocation. Regards, JS -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Suggestions + Patch, Redo - Part 1
On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 09:07:30AM -0300, Joao S. O. Bueno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: of the first things I teach to one who is learning the GIMP is the dinamic shortcut allocation. Which has gone out of 1.3 (yes, you can enable it in the preferences, but people telling me that it probably doesn't work because it collides with gtk2 isn't encouraging). That's actually my only usability problem with 1.3 now... If dynamic shortcuts don't work reliably, they should be taken out and not be offered. The better option would be to fix gtk2 if it needs fixing, or just plain disbaling that part, since I can't say I found anything int he new UI that would let pay me the price of not having dynamic shortcuts. Really, dynamic key bindings is *the* killer feature. Disabling it in 1.3 is a major drawback. -- -==- | ==-- _ | ---==---(_)__ __ __ Marc Lehmann +-- --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / [EMAIL PROTECTED] |e| -=/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ XX11-RIPE --+ The choice of a GNU generation | | ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [long] Suggestions + Patch, Redo (please dontflame), Part 1
Jakub Steiner wrote: big snip If we were to be consistent, this would have changed so that the shift key is again again the invertor. But this would mean a lot of replacing of Ctrl/Shift throughout the tools. I, for one, would welcome some thought put into consistency. As would I. I would like to get some usability people to have a look at the current CVS gimp and give us ideas as to what we can do to make the interface more consistent, and more user-friendly. In the meantime, there are some basics - keystrokes which are so common elsewhere that the fact that we use something else is an aberration, and has just stayed like that for ages, rather than a policy decision. The HIG is a good start, as are the OpenDesktop reccommendations/standards (which we've been following for the most part). It would be nice to consistentise the interface between now and GIMP:TNG. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary, Lyon, France E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Gimp-developer] Suggestions + Patch, Redo - Part 1
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ( Marc) (A.) (Lehmann ) wrote: On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 09:07:30AM -0300, Joao S. O. Bueno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: of the first things I teach to one who is learning the GIMP is the dinamic shortcut allocation. Which has gone out of 1.3 (yes, you can enable it in the preferences, but people telling me that it probably doesn't work because it collides with gtk2 isn't encouraging). That's actually my only usability problem with 1.3 now... If dynamic shortcuts don't work reliably, they should be taken out and not be offered. The better option would be to fix gtk2 if it needs fixing, or just plain disbaling that part, since I can't say I found anything int he new UI that would let pay me the price of not having dynamic shortcuts. Really, dynamic key bindings is *the* killer feature. Disabling it in 1.3 is a major drawback. Agreeded. I don't know how much it's dictated by gtk2, but it seens weird that the GIMP usability gets hurt for changes on The Gimp Toolkit. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Suggestions + Patch, Redo - Part 1
Hi, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ( Marc) (A.) (Lehmann ) writes: of the first things I teach to one who is learning the GIMP is the dinamic shortcut allocation. Which has gone out of 1.3 (yes, you can enable it in the preferences, but people telling me that it probably doesn't work because it collides with gtk2 isn't encouraging). That's actually my only usability problem with 1.3 now... If dynamic shortcuts don't work reliably, they should be taken out and not be offered. The better option would be to fix gtk2 if it needs fixing, or just plain disbaling that part, since I can't say I found anything int he new UI that would let pay me the price of not having dynamic shortcuts. Really, dynamic key bindings is *the* killer feature. Disabling it in 1.3 is a major drawback. You obviously did not understand the reasoning behind this change. There is no problem with Dynamic Shortcuts not working reliably and there's no need for any fixing in gtk2. The only problem is that since shortcuts can be easily changed, they are easily changed by accident. With the use of mnemonics in 1.3 the chance to make such a mistake has increased. That's why it is disabled by default. Reassigning shortcuts should be done with care and thought. People are supposed to go to the Prefs, enable Dynamic Shortcuts, change the keyboard shortcuts, then disable Dynamic Shortcuts again. That way the configured shortcuts are safe from accidental changes. IMO this is an improvement over 1.2. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Suggestions + Patch, Redo - Part 1
On Thu, 2003-06-26 at 15:21, Sven Neumann wrote: Reassigning shortcuts should be done with care and thought. People are supposed to go to the Prefs, enable Dynamic Shortcuts, change the keyboard shortcuts, then disable Dynamic Shortcuts again. That way the configured shortcuts are safe from accidental changes. IMO this is an improvement over 1.2. It is a elegant solution and the feature is definitely not lost. -- Jakub Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Gimp-developer] [long] Suggestions + Patch, Redo (please dontflame), Part 1
Hi, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tino Schwarze) writes: Why not simply (?) use both keystrokes? Because IIRC, GTK+ simply does not support this. Apart from that, I think it would introduce clutter and confusion. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
