Re: [Gimp-developer] gimp GUI
On Sat, Oct 23, 2004 at 10:31:40PM -0700, miriam clinton (iriXx) wrote: I have some experience in designing pngs and graphics for GNU/Linux music applications, as I am also a musician and a member of linux-audio-dev and linux-audio-user - the same discussion arose on those lists, also for another important reason - if we are to convert people to using GNU/Linux, the GUIs need to be as attractive as those in Winblows or Mac OS. welcome. thank you for your contribution to the gnu/linux world. it would be nice to see some examples of your work. we have a few artists involved with TheGIMP who have been using TheGIMP and the other GNUed applications to contribute this way for years. they would more than likely help you in any transition you are making from the other software environment to this one. I'm sorry if this message treads on many toes. But from the point of view of a designer - GIMP is designed by programmers, and therefore thinks in the manner of a programmer - the tools are difficult to use for graphic designers who are visual-thinkers. The menu is obscure, and it takes a great deal of mastery to create the same effects that we could do quickly and simply in Photoshop (err, some of the effects are rather dated too - but then again, some of the effects in Photoshop are similiarly outdated). I'm well aware of the problems which we face in regard to patents - I've also closely followed the Adobe vs. Macromedia lawsuits. no one will feel toes stepped on. it has been suggested for many many years that gimp tries to be photoshop or should be more like photoshop. i am not sure how long you have been using photoshop or what version you learned with. gimp-1.2 out-performed photoshop in ease of use in my experience with visual-thinkers. meaning, i watched a visual thinker try to make it work (photoshop) and couldnt. i am reminded of a child i worked with a couple of years ago. i was very sorry he was spending his time learning how AOL worked. he could have been learning how to make his computer work. you, as well, learned how to make photoshop work. learn gimp and it is easy to step into photoshop and work circles around those users. i am very sorry you spent this time learning how to use photoshop; especially if you were interested in free software. here is a secret about lawyers. they come in pairs; so if you dont get one, no one knows what to do with you. But I would very much like to comment from an artist's point of view on any improvements that I could suggest that might make GIMP more attractive to designers (and preferably, more attractive than photoshop). the developers have been working with artists since i started to watch them. perhaps you could fill in some details. which version of photoshop did you learn on? did you ever try paint shop pro or other payfor or steal software? I'm also interested to know if there is a port of an Adobe Illustrator-like application planned for the future. We need a good set of graphics tools, especially vector design and web design GUI-based tools such as the Macromedia suite to attract graphic designers - likewise there exists already an attractive and varied set of music applications which draw Winblows/Mac users to GNU/Linux. The desktop environments are extremely attractive - now we need to make the applications equally attractive, as many are frustrated by difficult-to-use applications, simply because of the GUI. Inkscape, i think. when asking developers a question, please do not assume they understand the software you were using. if you could describe the job that needs to be done and not the software you do not want to pay for any more it will be easier to get a response. this is something i learned from the new chix mail list. i am not sure how long you have been involved with free software, but perhaps you could join this mail list also so you can get a feel for the language and the way the developers communicate. so if you need to know what sort of software will draw textured shapes in three dimensions, or whatever (i am not at this point sure myself what illustrator does, anymore) it lets people know that 1) you do know what you are doing and 2) you respect that they were making tools not software clones. Again, apologies if this treads on toes - you're free to tell me to go shove it - but I'd very much like to comment and contribute as an artist and graphic designer. no toes treaded on, i am sure. these are fairly old suggestions. i would also not like to step on your toes, however suggest two different things. 1) that if you learn how to make graphics the way gimp does, your idea of attractive might expand and 2) richard was flirting. carol ps, i think that TheGIMP is very very attractive from the icons right down to its core and i wish i had charged my photoshop friends for teaching them how to use their expensive thing.
[Gimp-developer] Help system
I run gimp in swedish and the translation is very good. The help files however are mostly blank pages. I have to quit and start gimp in english in order to get any help. Of course this problem can be solved by deleting the swedish documentation and then I assume I would get the english one. But it's not the best solution. Also, even if there had been a more complete translation, how do I know if that is a translation of the latest english version? Being able to select language at run time would be helpful. gettext() works well because the translation is only used when the original text is as it was when it was translated. Maybe one could make something similar with the doc, like a md5sum of the help page. If the checksum does not match the one stored with the translation then the english original help is used (or some other language that the user prefer, just like it works with gettext). -- /Dennis Björklund ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gimp GUI
Hi, miriam clinton (iriXx) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As part of our discussions, I raised the issue of why I find the GIMP difficult to use as a graphic designer. Although it is quite a formidable translation of many of the graphics tools, we graphic designers are visual thinkers and rely heavily on the GUI to produce our work. Several of my colleagues have tried GIMP but find it difficult to work with for this reason. For what reason? You better tell us what exactly you find difficult to use. We are constantly working on improving the user interface so of course we are interested in feedback. Telling us that it is difficult to use (and not even telling us what version you have been using when you made that experience), is however not very helpful. I'm sorry if this message treads on many toes. How could your message thread on any toes? You didn't say anything yet. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with gimp directory structure
Hi, Jean-Sebastien Senecal [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm working on an open-source software for real-time mix-medias, similar to Puredata. We've started using part of the Gimp code for image processing. For now, I was able to move the composition functions in paint-funcs. However, since the functions are not documented, I find it often difficult to know what this or this is doing. Plus, I don't understand well how the files are organized. You are trying to reuse the part of the GIMP code that we would like to get rid of the sooner the better. The basic image manipulation routines date back to the early days of GIMP development and haven't seen the refactoring that all other parts of the code have gone through. I would not suggest to use this code at all. You should consider to use GEGL instead. But then, GEGL is probably not at the point yet where it would fulfill your needs. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help system
Ie read a thread some months ago on GIMP developers saying that the Gimp-ghelp should be designed in such a way that, when a page did not exist for a locale, it would fall back to other languages in a given order. Was that implemented? If so..is the fallback to swedish en ? And Dennis: No, deleting the swedish docs won't give you the English docs. On Sunday 24 October 2004 09:50, Dennis Bjorklund wrote: I run gimp in swedish and the translation is very good. The help files however are mostly blank pages. I have to quit and start gimp in english in order to get any help. Of course this problem can be solved by deleting the swedish documentation and then I assume I would get the english one. But it's not the best solution. Also, even if there had been a more complete translation, how do I know if that is a translation of the latest english version? Being able to select language at run time would be helpful. gettext() works well because the translation is only used when the original text is as it was when it was translated. Maybe one could make something similar with the doc, like a md5sum of the help page. If the checksum does not match the one stored with the translation then the english original help is used (or some other language that the user prefer, just like it works with gettext). regards, JS - ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-docs] Re: [Gimp-developer] Help system
Hi, Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ie read a thread some months ago on GIMP developers saying that the Gimp-ghelp should be designed in such a way that, when a page did not exist for a locale, it would fall back to other languages in a given order. Was that implemented? If so..is the fallback to swedish en ? The help system has always been designed that way. The problem was with the way the help pages get generated from the DocBook sources. During that process empty pages were generated instead of no pages. Thus, the language fallback in the help system could not work. AFAIK the problem has been addressed in the meantime (as I already mentioned in an earlier mail). And Dennis: No, deleting the swedish docs won't give you the English docs. Huh? Of course it will. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gimp GUI
Hi, let me add another note just to make sure you don't get us wrong. Of course we appreciate your offer and I think that you could indeed help us. You could for example try to describe and to compare common workflows in GIMP, Photoshop or other image manipulation programs. Such a comparison is however only useful if it can be understood by someone who doesn't know the software involved. Would you be interested in doing this? Perhaps the GIMP Wiki would be a good place for it? Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gimp GUI
thanks Sven and Carol for your answers... I'll get back to you with more details about the GUI, as i'm working on an art project at the moment, but to answer some immediate queries: - I'm using Photoshop 7.0 - strangely enough, I find it, and all the other tools I use, highly intuitive - the essence of a tool that a graphic designer can use is its intuitiveness, rather than usability. Perhaps in this case we should use graphic designers as testers, alongside bug-testers? - I was using the GIMP supplied by Mandrake 9.2, but I'll download the latest version. - First thing I'd suggest is stacking the Layers / Brushes etc. screens which at present you have to open from the top left hand menu - Photoshop keeps these permanently in appearance, stacked at the right hand corner, although you can double-click on the top of these mini-screens - A Navigation tool for zooming would be essential - again, somewhere in these mini-screens. - This might become a patent problem - but what i'm really suggesting is to keep all the tool option screens in one place, and let the content and menus of the tool options change within this space, rather than having to open a new Options window when you click on the brush tool, for example. Thats one of the areas where Photoshop / Paint Shop Pro users find GIMP most difficult - the choice of tools is obscured, and you can't keep control of all the tools in one place, you have to keep opening and closing menus. - Its pretty hard to find where the effects are, and to know you have to right-click on the image to produce these. But that in itself is elegant, and avoids patent issues... I think the essential problem with Effects is that its difficult to find out a) where they are located in the menu and b) what the heck do they do?... Also many of the effects are outdated or not as accurate as the Photoshop versions. - One thing i /LOVE/ about the GIMP is that you've now implemented layer effects (Multiply, Color Dodge, Color Burn etc.) - but these really need to be in a permanently open menu. The problem is that there are too many screens appearing in random positions - even if the layer menu is the only one open, it could appear aligned on the right hand side, and then when you select the brush tool, the layer menu stays in place, appearing below the layer menu. A navigator screen should be in place always - this is a feature I find essential, and makes it impossible for me to use the GIMP - while i can zoom in and out, its very difficult to drag the screen around to the place where I want to work. As for Illustrator / Fireworks / Dreamweaver / Flash: (my own 'essential' tools) Illustrator is a print design tool, on the level of GIMP. At the moment we have a few imitations but they are too poor to be used for print preparation - there are a lot of features (which I can describe, but it would require a new and very extensive project) especially the ability to create pictures at 300dpi +. This is vitally important when preparing either a GIMP, vector design or print design tool - screen resolution @ 72dpi will produce fuzzy results and embarrassment on the part of the designer when you take it to the printers! ;) Fireworks is a vector design tool. Sodipodi is getting close, or aiming in the same direction, but really is only in the early stages - I find Fireworks essential for designing either print or web material - particularly web material and it exports to png by default. It also has an optimising screen for jpeg/gif (ewww, but essential). Fireworks allows you to slice the image and export the slices to HTML or simply to images - there are a variety of options, which Photoshop uses also, albeit in a rather obscured way. Photoshop tried to implement vector graphics but nobody could make head or tail of them - the only bonus is that you can export to ImageReady and to Illustrator. Flash is an absolute essential - we have no tools at all at present for animation. Flash uses vector graphics as well as being able to import movies, images in any format, and sound. It also allows for javascript to be applied to objects (objects in this case meaning physical objects on the screen - this taught me a lot about programming 'objects' too). Flash also has its own language - 'ActionScript'- which is based on Javascript. Likewise, Quicktime works in a similiar way although I'd never reccomend it because you have to download and make sense of the SDK. Flash is more intuitive. Flash works on timelines - the closest thing I've seen was that application for music/video mixing which was discontinued due to patent problems, and then re-adopted under a different name by Mandrake - the name slips my mind for the moment. Timelines are how we compose layers, putting an object on each timeline and seamlessly moving it about by using 'motion tweening'. Personally speaking, I'm just sad that I can't use Free software for my design
Re: [Gimp-developer] gimp GUI
On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 12:12:46PM -0700, miriam clinton (iriXx) wrote: thanks Sven and Carol for your answers... I'll get back to you with more details about the GUI, as i'm working on an art project at the moment, but to answer some immediate queries: - I'm using Photoshop 7.0 - strangely enough, I find it, and all the other tools I use, highly intuitive - the essence of a tool that a graphic designer can use is its intuitiveness, rather than usability. That's you. There are others who find photoshop highly unintuitive, and GIMP much easier to use. Part of the problem is that many designers started out using photoshop, so the intuitiveness is not necessarily inherent in the application, but a mental byproduct of cultivating your nascent workflow using a specific app. This doesn't really validate photoshop's interface as good, but rather what photoshop trained designers are used to. Merely copying photoshop blindly is a bad idea, since photoshop's interface has got its own weird quirks. Nevermind the interface differences between photoshop on Mac and on Windows. So things really should be taken on a case by case basis. In some cases, photoshop may be better at some things, but in others, completely crack filled. Perhaps in this case we should use graphic designers as testers, alongside bug-testers? Do not discount the graphic designers who actually prefer gimp's interface to photoshop's. -Yosh ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gimp GUI
Hi, miriam clinton (iriXx) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: - I was using the GIMP supplied by Mandrake 9.2, but I'll download the latest version. IIRC that would be gimp-1.2 then. You'd have to compare that to PS5. Basically you are ignoring the last four years of GIMP development. Please udpate to GIMP 2.0.5 or even consider to try GIMP 2.1.7, the latest development snapshot. We are close to the 2.2 release, so that would give you the best impression on where we are. Though most of the issues you raised have been addressed with GIMP 2.0 already. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
