Re: [Gimp-developer] Photoshop “compatibility” mode
On Jan 30, 2011, at 12:12 PM, Liam R E Quin wrote: > On Sun, 2011-01-30 at 01:43 +0100, Bogdan Szczurek wrote: > >> The thing is, that we concluded that permamenet transition or even >> occasional use of Gimp would be much more appealing for Ps-bred guys >> (like me ;)) if one would have possibility to use the same (or at least >> much similar) keyboard shortcuts. > > There's some danger here -- as people in Germany found when they > compared moving to KDE or Gnome from Windows: when the new system is too > similar to the old, people start going into automatic mode, and trip up > much more over the differences. This came up at linux.conf.au this week. I had a chance to talk with a couple of users and graphic designers about UI, including the issue of being made similar to Adobe products. The almost immediate response was that if the program is not going to behave *exactly* as the Adobe one does, in smallest detail, then it is far better to have an explicitly distinct UI. Being "close" just leaves the end user with a vague feeling of incompleteness and that the software is not really ready for serious use. > Given those things, I'd prefer to provide a really good "Libre Graphics > for Photoshop Users" that talks also about when to use GIMP and when to > use Inkscape, ImageMagick, darktable (if you can figure the damn thing > out). The "default image" in krita is one good example of how to give > useful information, even though I'd still prefer a blank image. > > So, how about Help->Getting Started ? I'll help write it, if there's > agreement that it could be included. Artists and designers I get to talk to have stated that such guides would be very good ideas, and could avoid much of the call for compatible keybindings, etc. It also would be very helpful if some common Adobe-user use cases that were more complex in Photoshop yet easier in GIMP were highlighted. Such improvements in workflow tend to give the transitioning users a better feeling and a more positive migration experience. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Photoshop ?compatibility? mode
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 9:39 PM, gespert...@gmail.com wrote: > And all this conversation is because you think CTRL+Backspace makes > more sense than CTRL+. (because you're used to that combination) and > you don't want to take 30 seconds of your time to personalize the > accelerators? By "you" are you referring to me? If I've used Photoshop it hasn't been in the past decade. I'm not saying any particular keystroke makes any sense whatsoever. It doesn't make any sense to me that keyboard shortcuts tend to assume the user speaks English. > A couple of days ago a voluntary coder (with an impressive CV) arrived > to this list offering his help and he only got a couple of replies. I would agree that there are problems with the way people tend to interact on this list. One of which is the knee-jerk reaction whenever an email comes across with the word Photoshop in it. Chris ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Photoshop ?compatibility? mode
And all this conversation is because you think CTRL+Backspace makes more sense than CTRL+. (because you're used to that combination) and you don't want to take 30 seconds of your time to personalize the accelerators? Seriously? GIMP accelerators are customizable using a visible option from the Edit menu, and you can even choose to assign accelerators dinamically from the preferences. The menurc file in the prefs folder has the list of accelerators. You could create a custom version with the combinations you want (or google for it, just to find that someone already did it). A couple of days ago a voluntary coder (with an impressive CV) arrived to this list offering his help and he only got a couple of replies. This pointless discussion got a lot more of attention. Just my 2 cents. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Photoshop “compatibility” mode
Actually, I intended this thread to be about “Photoshop «compatibility» mode” (quotation marks to emphasize that I meant only particular kind of compatibility :)). I'm afraid the conversation went a bit off-topic since I didn't suggested changes in _default_ shortcuts scheme for GIMP. What I suggested was _possibility_ to easily choose, via GUI, among some predefined shortcut sets. > I am also not suggesting blindly following "old Adobe products". > However, it is equally a mistake to blindly follow "old GIMP products" > when it's clear the rest of the world is moving to another set of > default keybindings. The crux of my argument is simply that - > regardless of what we've become used to - it is beneficial to all > users - existing and future - to monitor default keybindings across > peer applications and mimic each other where appropriate. I agree. If GIMP would have simple shortcut switcher, whole problem of “what should be default” could be marginalized, because the keyboard control “profile” will be so trivial to change that it wouldn't matter “what's default” anymore. At least it woudn't matter so much. > I do like the page Alexandre put together on the Create wiki, but I do > not like that closed-source applications appear to have been excluded. > I don't want to diverge into a Free Software "Purity" versus Open > Source "Practicality" debate but closed source applications are an > important part of the software ecosystem -- if for no other reason > than we're trying to provide a better alternative to them. And > "better alternative" in no way, shape, or form means "clone". I think that word “better” is very important here. “Better” does not mean “different at all costs”. If “curves” paradigm works nicely then we're not trying to replace it with something else just for the change's sake. I think shortcuts are similar in that matter. If Ps shortcuts are much used in practice and tutorials then why not give a chance to have them mimicked as an option? Again, I know it is possible right now to have Ps-like behaving GIMP but the way to achieving it isn't so much appealing to a graphic designer. Believe me I've heard some words of frustration from a couple of persons. So the question is not “if” it is possible but “how hard” it is to be done. I propose to make it simpler for the sake of less-technical userbase (which would be “a lot” among graphic designers). > However, if an application is intended to be cross-platform, it should > conform to the conventions of that platform. Very broadly, that means > on MacOS it should do the weird titlebar thing by default; it would do > single window mode on Windows; Ok/Cancel conventions would match the > platform; and as there really aren't that many expectations of what a > *nix system looks like, it can pretty much be whatever - but should > follow the GNOME HIG on GNOME and the KDE HIG on KDE ... ideally. And > these HIGs should not have sections called anything like "Keyboard > shortcuts for raster image editors". Here shortcut scheme switcher would be much appreciated. It could choose proper defaults on the first run, but also allow to change the whole set of them on the fly. Interesting is that Adobe apps have shortcut switcher which is a blessing to use in situations when I have to change the seats with one of my collegues. He uses quite queer shortcuts so to work as fast as usual and not to swear frequently I revert back to default shortcuts. When my work is done I set his own shortcuts and it's as simple as that. Anyway… such thing is _convenient_. And not such a revolution too. Simply: I vote to have shortcut set switcher in GIMP and apart from GIMP's own shortcuts a scheme that mimicks Ps' “in the same package”. Best regards and thanks for upholding the discussion! thebodzio signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Photoshop “compatibility” mode
Let me start off by saying that this conversion is exasperating, and this will likely be my last message on the topic. Firstly, let me define "peer group": Any set of applications that interpret data in a specific way and allows the user to view or manipulate said interpretation in any specific way. As an example, all applications which interpret data as pixel information form a peer group. Common features such as panning and zooming should be the same across all these applications. These groups can be broken down further into "viewers" and "editors". Editors can be broken down further into "raster" and "vector". And then "layered" versus "flat", etc. As application groups get more specific their shortcuts will by necessity diverge, but these peers should have more shortcuts in common than not. What does not matter within a peer group is what programming language the application uses, what libraries it uses, what the primary deployment platform is, what other applications someone may or may not use with it, or what license the application is distributed under. These are all immaterial to what the application _is_ or _does_ (which also defines who uses it). If there's confusion because I'm posting in a thread called "Photoshop compatibility mode" let me apologize for confusing anyone and clearly state that I am not suggesting this mode be adopted as the default mode for GIMP. I am also not suggesting blindly following "old Adobe products". However, it is equally a mistake to blindly follow "old GIMP products" when it's clear the rest of the world is moving to another set of default keybindings. The crux of my argument is simply that - regardless of what we've become used to - it is beneficial to all users - existing and future - to monitor default keybindings across peer applications and mimic each other where appropriate. I do like the page Alexandre put together on the Create wiki, but I do not like that closed-source applications appear to have been excluded. I don't want to diverge into a Free Software "Purity" versus Open Source "Practicality" debate but closed source applications are an important part of the software ecosystem -- if for no other reason than we're trying to provide a better alternative to them. And "better alternative" in no way, shape, or form means "clone". One example given - the idiotic Microsoft + shortcuts for cut/copy/paste - is a classic NIH problem, just like this might be considered to be. Maybe they thought they were saving DVORAK users (where +X,C,V isn't at all intuitive) when the rest of world had moved on to QWERTY, but now there are keyboards that have moved the key onto the row and doubled the size of the key! (Mine is one of these monstrosities.) The simple reality is that things get easier for users when common assumptions are shared. Some say that smart people learn from their mistakes; wise people learn from the mistakes of others. As to the GNOME HIG, that is a much broader topic. If the GNOME HIG has an entry that says "The 'R' key shall select the 'Rectangle Selection' tool", I would say that it is over-specified and doomed to failure. Note that I am not saying that it is the case that it is - just that it would be. However, if an application is intended to be cross-platform, it should conform to the conventions of that platform. Very broadly, that means on MacOS it should do the weird titlebar thing by default; it would do single window mode on Windows; Ok/Cancel conventions would match the platform; and as there really aren't that many expectations of what a *nix system looks like, it can pretty much be whatever - but should follow the GNOME HIG on GNOME and the KDE HIG on KDE ... ideally. And these HIGs should not have sections called anything like "Keyboard shortcuts for raster image editors". Chris ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Photoshop“compatibility” mode
Christopher Curtis gmail.com> writes: > I don't know if you're intentionally setting up a stawman here, but > inkscape is a vector editor, blender is a 3D modeler, and gedit is a > text editor. These applications aren't in the same domain as GIMP and > MyPaint. Don't dismiss it so quickly. It may not be very important for a 2D graphic artist, but for a 3d artist, to have the same keybindings in their 2d and 3d apps would be very useful. I work with 3ds Max and Photoshop on a daily basis and I have to switch between the two often. even after 10 years It gets annoying that simple tasks like "panning the view" or "cloning a selection" is completely different in the two (Autodesk is mostly to blame in this case). When you work with a number of apps, and you need to work fast, having to shift mental gears between apps always slows you down. I still occasionally use Ctrl-alt-z to undo more than one step when I'm in 3ds max because this is how it's done in Photoshop, and I end up zooming to the scene extents instead. I try my best to synchronize keybindings where I can. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Photoshop “compatibility” mode
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:33 PM, Christopher Curtis wrote: > On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 8:51 PM, Liam R E Quin wrote: > >> I'm actually Ok with this. But we have to agree what we mean by "peer >> applications" - I'd say gimp and inkscape are, for example, and not gimp >> and photoshop. > > So your argument is that on the "Software Spectrum" GIMP is not a > graphics application but is first a GNOME application. For the people > who want, you know, to create GNOME. It just happens to create GNOME > using graphics. > > That's sarcasm of course - you say that primary platform trumps > application domain, and GIMP is GNOME because that's where it's > hosted; a rather myopic and user-hostile view, IMHO. Most people > don't care one whit about GNOME or where GIMP is hosted. Let's start with the fact that Inkscape isn't a GNOME application (though it uses GIO, AFAIK). Now, there is nothing bad about following UI conventions set by umbrella organization such as GNOME as long as they make sense. Do we have agreement on that? Furthermore, collaborating with Inkscape *instead* makes a lot of sense, because GIMP + Inkscape are a usual combo. Blindly reusing shortcuts from old Adobe products doesn't make a lot of sense. I'd have to look at Ps again to make sure nothing changed, but Illustrator carries around somewhat inconsistent shortcuts exactly because old habits die hard. I'd say that the idea of reusing shortcuts from an application where they had been stacked on top of each other over years without review is a bit on the crazy side. The very same "many people" who don't care about GNOME want GIMP to be a drop-in Photoshop replacement. Needless to say, this is not the point why GIMP exists and is being worked on. One would have to lose all self-respect and joy of life to work on a free drop-in replacement for *any* software project. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Fwd: Photoshop “compatibility” mode
Forgot to reply-all... -- Forwarded message -- From: Chris Mohler Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 10:10 AM Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Photoshop “compatibility” mode To: Christopher Curtis On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 9:33 AM, Christopher Curtis wrote: >> I'm actually Ok with this. But we have to agree what we mean by "peer >> applications" - I'd say gimp and inkscape are, for example, and not gimp >> and photoshop. > > So your argument is that on the "Software Spectrum" GIMP is not a > graphics application but is first a GNOME application. For the people > who want, you know, to create GNOME. It just happens to create GNOME > using graphics. I think the argument is GIMP and Inkscape are peers, while GIMP and Photoshop are not. Makes sense to me - I hop between the two quite often. > That's sarcasm of course - you say that primary platform trumps > application domain, and GIMP is GNOME because that's where it's > hosted; a rather myopic and user-hostile view, IMHO. Most people > don't care one whit about GNOME or where GIMP is hosted. They want > software that is better than what they currently have, fits the way > they work, and is relatively familiar ... which is going to lead down > an ugly road. Hosting is another straw man, and I believe there are people out there who are fine with the software they have, people whose workflow is constantly evolving and people who try new things. So in other words that blanket statement cannot possibly be true ;) > So let me ask you this instead: Are you going to oppose a patch that > changes the GIMP shortcut for FG/BG fill to match PhotoShop's on the > basis that Backspace does something completely different in GEdit? Or > on the basis that GIMP is not a PS clone? Or some other reason? Or > would you have no opposition at all? Personally I would oppose that patch (I'm not a dev). Why mess with people who have been using GIMP for years just to mimic some other application? There's nothing stopping you from defining your own shortcuts. Chris ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Photoshop “compatibility” mode
On 31 January 2011 17:33, Christopher Curtis wrote: > On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 8:51 PM, Liam R E Quin wrote: > >> I'm actually Ok with this. But we have to agree what we mean by "peer >> applications" - I'd say gimp and inkscape are, for example, and not gimp >> and photoshop. > > So your argument is that on the "Software Spectrum" GIMP is not a > graphics application but is first a GNOME application. For the people > who want, you know, to create GNOME. It just happens to create GNOME > using graphics. > No, I am quite certain the argument is that GIMP users workflow/pipeline is more likely to also include Inkscape than Photoshop. Which in my experience is fairly sound. -- Regards Jon Nordby - www.jonnor.com ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Photoshop “compatibility” mode
On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 8:51 PM, Liam R E Quin wrote: > I'm actually Ok with this. But we have to agree what we mean by "peer > applications" - I'd say gimp and inkscape are, for example, and not gimp > and photoshop. So your argument is that on the "Software Spectrum" GIMP is not a graphics application but is first a GNOME application. For the people who want, you know, to create GNOME. It just happens to create GNOME using graphics. That's sarcasm of course - you say that primary platform trumps application domain, and GIMP is GNOME because that's where it's hosted; a rather myopic and user-hostile view, IMHO. Most people don't care one whit about GNOME or where GIMP is hosted. They want software that is better than what they currently have, fits the way they work, and is relatively familiar ... which is going to lead down an ugly road. So let me ask you this instead: Are you going to oppose a patch that changes the GIMP shortcut for FG/BG fill to match PhotoShop's on the basis that Backspace does something completely different in GEdit? Or on the basis that GIMP is not a PS clone? Or some other reason? Or would you have no opposition at all? Chris ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
