Re: [Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Peter D'Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Tariq, Apparently it is alright for you to go back to a statement made 86 years ago by Ben Gurion to prove a point while completely ignoring the fact that Mario Goveia was talking about Israel's in today's context. When Mario said that the PLO charter doesn't recognise Israel--a claim that wasn't disputed even 10 years ago--you were very quick to bring him up to date, per your understanding of Oslo. (I do believe that Mario is correct, though--Yasser Arafat acknowledged the existence of Israel in the accords, but that did not change the PLO charter.) The statements attributed to David Ben-Gurion were provided in the context of Mario's absurd remarks that the Israeli's were never seeking more territory and their Next time, please read the whole thread before deciding to jump in and wag your finger. As for the Palestinian Charter, it was amended on April 24, 1996, in a special session of the PNC in Gaza. There were 504 votes for the change and 54 against, with 14 abstentions. The Jewish lobby and its pet parrots around the world have made a cottage industry of claiming that this Palestinian Charter was never changed because: 1. The PNC never published a charter that reflected the revision. 2. Disgruntled members of the PNC made comments to the effect that the vote on April 24, 1996 was merely a vote to authorize the change of the charter, and not a change to the charter itself. The sad part in all this is that, the Occupier of the Land and the supporters of Occupation, are today spending considerable effort and time, finding procedural irregularities in the political operations of the people whose land has been usurped. It would be perhaps wise to focus such energy on self-reflection and the fact that they have been occupying the land that belongs to someone else. -Tariq __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## - Forwarded message from Peter D'Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:40:51 -0500 From: Peter D'Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Peter D'Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hey Tariq, Apparently it is alright for you to go back to a statement made 86 years ago by Ben Gurion to prove a point while completely ignoring the fact that Mario Goveia was talking about Israel's in today's context. When Mario said that the PLO charter doesn't recognise Israel--a claim that wasn't disputed even 10 years ago--you were very quick to bring him up to date, per your understanding of Oslo. (I do believe that Mario is correct, though--Yasser Arafat acknowledged the existence of Israel in the accords, but that did not change the PLO charter.) Tariq Siddiqui [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Israel doesn't claim all of Palestine as a historical right, so this whole line of reasoning is bogus. Perhaps you were never aware of David Ben-Gurion. In 1918 Ben-Gurion described the future Jewish state's frontiers in details as follows:
Re: [Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Tariq, I hope you get some comfort and satisfaction from quoting what Ben Gurion said 85 years ago and Menachim Begin said 60 years ago, while ignoring what Ehud Barak said just 4 years ago. It is amazing to me that anyone would even consider locating a Jewish homeland in Uganda rather than their Biblical homeland. Anyway, all that was decided by the UN in 1947, making anything before that a moot issue. The brutal fact is that it is the militant Arabs and Palestinians who defied the UN sponsored partition of 1947, tried to push the Jews into the sea and failed, and will not accept a 2 state configuration to this day. Until the Palestinians are willing to cease hostilities and negotiate, the low-grade conflict is doomed to continue. Tariq Siddiqui [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Mario Goveia wrote: Israel doesn't claim all of Palestine as a historical right, so this whole line of reasoning is bogus. They accepted a small slice in 1947 as part of the UN attempt to provide them with a homeland after the Holocaust. Perhaps you were never aware of David Ben-Gurion. In 1918 Ben-Gurion described the future Jewish state's frontiers in details as follows: to the north, the Litani river [in southern Lebanon], to the northeast, the Wadi 'Owja, twenty miles south of Damascus; the southern border will be mobile and pushed into Sinai at least up to Wadi al-'Arish; and to the east, the Syrian Desert, including the furthest edge of Transjordan (Expulsion of the Palestinians by Nur Masalha) Or perhaps you were not aware of when he wrote: The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan. One does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today--but the boundaries of the Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them. (The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities by Simha Flapan) As for the partition of Palestine. Let us see what Menachim Begin, later to become Prime Minister of Israel said: The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever. (The Iron Wall by Avi Shlaim) Aren't you even aware that Jews and Muslims inhabited Palestine since the Old Testament days and both trace their origins to Abraham? The European Jews who had survived the Nazis then fled to Israel during and after WW-II. So, what is this nonsense about ALL the Israelis being Europeans? Your example of placing Israel in Uganda is also bogus, because, unlike Palestine, Uganda had no ties to Jews in any way, shape or form. You are correct, all the Israels are not Ashkenazi or European Jews. Some of them are Sephardic Jews. But neither of them lived in Palestine in any significant minority. At the turn of the century there were estimated to be only 70,000 Jews in Palestine. Due to immigration from Europe, these numbers swelled to 806,000 by the end of WWII. So Tim is correct. As for Tim's remarks on Uganda, they cannot be claimed as bogus since there was a plan to settle Jews in Uganda. Efforts were also made to settle Jews in Iraq, Libya, Argentina and the Jewish Autonomous Republic in the USSR. None were accepted by the European Jews, who preferred Palestine. -Tariq __ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Israel doesn't claim all of Palestine as a historical right, so this whole line of reasoning is bogus. They accepted a small slice in 1947 as part of the UN attempt to provide them with a homeland after the Holocaust. Perhaps you were never aware of David Ben-Gurion. In 1918 Ben-Gurion described the future Jewish state's frontiers in details as follows: to the north, the Litani river [in southern Lebanon], to the northeast, the Wadi 'Owja, twenty miles south of Damascus; the southern border will be mobile and pushed into Sinai at least up to Wadi al-'Arish; and to the east, the Syrian Desert, including the furthest edge of Transjordan (Expulsion of the Palestinians by Nur Masalha) Or perhaps you were not aware of when he wrote: The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan. One does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today--but the boundaries of the Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them. (The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities by Simha Flapan) As for the partition of Palestine. Let us see what Menachim Begin, later to become Prime Minister of Israel said: The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever. (The Iron Wall by Avi Shlaim) Aren't you even aware that Jews and Muslims inhabited Palestine since the Old Testament days and both trace their origins to Abraham? The European Jews who had survived the Nazis then fled to Israel during and after WW-II. So, what is this nonsense about ALL the Israelis being Europeans? Your example of placing Israel in Uganda is also bogus, because, unlike Palestine, Uganda had no ties to Jews in any way, shape or form. You are correct, all the Israels are not Ashkenazi or European Jews. Some of them are Sephardic Jews. But neither of them lived in Palestine in any significant minority. At the turn of the century there were estimated to be only 70,000 Jews in Palestine. Due to immigration from Europe, these numbers swelled to 806,000 by the end of WWII. So Tim is correct. As for Tim's remarks on Uganda, they cannot be claimed as bogus since there was a plan to settle Jews in Uganda. Efforts were also made to settle Jews in Iraq, Libya, Argentina and the Jewish Autonomous Republic in the USSR. None were accepted by the European Jews, who preferred Palestine. -Tariq __ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com
[Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## i hope every one is enjoying the debate without rancor / unfortunately truth appears to be whatever you beleive / most of the world looks at americans as spoilt selfserving people/ that is far from the reality/ as proved by the election most americans voted for god good liberty and democracy for all ()/ america is a beacon(and a country) for immigrants who were opressed in their own countries andthey are desperately trying to convince the world that true democracy (individual power) works / for those who are skeptical pl read the us constitution and bill of rights i challenge them to find a better freedom document in history not even the magna carta empowered the individual/ the only document in history that empowers the individual rather than the state is here in the us/ the haters need to learn that what they hate is actually what they dream of /and hope their countries will emulate the ideals of america/it is not perfect but americans love their dissenters more than any other country that is a lesson for all /u s votes on what they morally feel is right / in a world that is hedonistic (thats what you blame the us for) the amercans did stand up for morality and proved that they can still stand up for morals and values in a world that doesnt care or find an expediant excuse / /remember the voice in the wilderness /americans voted for whats right rather than what the world wanted/ if america did not exist as an opponent to dictators (hitler stalin lenin krushchev hirohito saddam etcetc )who will !1 would you rather have people subjugated or free / freedom is not free it comes at a moral price / those who are willing to pay the price live free / those who complain but remain subserviant have no right to complain about the free / if you are envious of the rights and abilities of the us /i challenge you to change your countries to empower the individual rather than the state / most indians who escape the constaints of their gov / find pastures only limited by their abilities / derek desouza ps please dont get personal in responses but debate with conviction / and we can have fun dd
Re: [Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I only take responsibility for my own actions, . . . . If you are shouldering all the sins of the Catholic Church through the ages you must be a real basket case. == By belonging to a particular religion or sect it is the responsibility of all members of that group to take note of what the leaders of that group do - and did. When I was growing up in Kenya, I certainly asked our Irish priests why the Church was quiet, not only about the holocaust, but also about apartheid. Why did the Church not speak up. Of course, we received the same stock answer each time: The Church has to try and work for the GREATER GOOD even though they are aware of injustices. Thankfully, more Catholics did not accept that position and that is why the Pope had to issue an apology about their acquiescence (and some say complicity) during the holocaust period. You also must be aware that the holocaust would not have happened if it wasn't for stong and sometimes virulent Christian anti-Semitism that existed at that time. It is not a case shouldering the sins but trying to act responsibly as a member of the Catholic Church - and to work with them to correct some of the wrongs done by the Church in the past - including, as you mention, the Inquisition. As far as the pedophile priests of more recent times, action by concerned Catholics were responsible for correcting a number or wrongs in Canada and around the world. Of course, if want to take a parochial stance and limit your responsibilities to what you yourself personally see and do you are welcome to do that position. Tim de Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] CANADA
Re: [Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Cornel, I have been very detailed and specific. So, instead of discussing generalities like whose objectivity is better, which is a meaningless excercise, and talking about every other issue under the sun than the topic of discussion, please feel free to challenge my facts and logic, point-by-point, with facts and logic of your own. Half-truths, untruths, faulty logic and false comparisons will be responded to with an opposing point of view. --- cornel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Mario, Methinks the trouble with your posts lies in your belief that your objectivity is better than the other guy's objectivity! Also, that you have the facts while others do not. I put it to you that much of your facticity is seriously questionable and straight from right-wing thinking in the USA, which in turn is largely controlled by the Jews in America. A look into serious quality international papers of the Left (including Jews highly critical of Israeli policy in Palestine) would be an absolute eye-opener to you. There are many alternative views to yours and I'll be brief, otherwise one can just go on and on re this issue. The Barak and Clinton deal was wisely rejected by Arafat as it would have reduced the proposed Palestinian State to a collection of mere powerless colonial Bantustans as in the former South Africa. Secondly, the Zionist agenda is undoubtedly to push the Palestinians out of their legitimately held homeland and they have been very successful so far with American support. In contrast, the Palestinian call to drive the Israelis into the sea is seemingly feeble and merely the rhetoric of victims of a mighty oppressor. Please do not ever forget that Israel was born through terrorism against anyone who stood in their way, be it the British or Arab. It continues to be a terrorist state, ready to attack any neighbouring state and Iran is especially vulnerable at this moment in time. Your comparison with the Indian/Pakistani partition in 1947 is a red herring. All that Israel has to do, without delay, is to get to the UN partition lines for a two-state solution. In other words, stop the occupation first before making unacceptable demands from the Palestinians. I respect you for your strongly held views and would defend your right to these. I hope you can also respect the views of others which are diametrically opposed to yours and are also strongly held. Cornel
Re: [Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Sachin, I'm glad you picked up on some of the strange anti-American rhetoric and inverse logic being used. As you may have heard, Suha Arafat has negotiated a payment of US$22 million a year to disclose where Yasser hid the stolen funds, some estimate it to be in the one billion range, much of which came from the US. So the Americans do have an interest in money that is stolen. Regarding Halliburton, there are investigations going on, some people have been prosecuted and fired, some fines have been levied, and some of the rhetoric is just overblown. In the meantime the company remains a recognized expert in their field. There are some independant investigative reports on www.factcheck.org on the no-bid contracts, which started under Clinton, and Cheney's involvement or lack thereof. --- Sachin Phadte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## I think Tony Correia Afonso makes a specious argument when he says: I agree with Cornel that Arafat may have been corrupt, but who are the Americans to judge him? I do not think that it is only the Americans who have accused him of such a crime. There have been many Palestinians who have also made similar accusations. And the accusation of corruption has been made while Arafat was alive, and the case of a pension for his wife is only one of the many things that people in Palestine are not happy about. However, we should not end up saying that because the Americans say that so-and-so is corrupt, the person is not corrupt. As far as Tony's comment on Haliburton is concerned, I agree with him that it smacks of corruption. Sachin Phadte. _ Choose what you want to read. Protect your mail from spam. http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/hotmailspamcontrol/ Win the war in 9 steps!
Re: [Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Mario, Methinks the trouble with your posts lies in your belief that your objectivity is better than the other guy's objectivity! Also, that you have the facts while others do not. I put it to you that much of your facticity is seriously questionable and straight from right-wing thinking in the USA, which in turn is largely controlled by the Jews in America. A look into serious quality international papers of the Left (including Jews highly critical of Israeli policy in Palestine) would be an absolute eye-opener to you. There are many alternative views to yours and I'll be brief, otherwise one can just go on and on re this issue. The Barak and Clinton deal was wisely rejected by Arafat as it would have reduced the proposed Palestinian State to a collection of mere powerless colonial Bantustans as in the former South Africa. Secondly, the Zionist agenda is undoubtedly to push the Palestinians out of their legitimately held homeland and they have been very successful so far with American support. In contrast, the Palestinian call to drive the Israelis into the sea is seemingly feeble and merely the rhetoric of victims of a mighty oppressor. Please do not ever forget that Israel was born through terrorism against anyone who stood in their way, be it the British or Arab. It continues to be a terrorist state, ready to attack any neighbouring state and Iran is especially vulnerable at this moment in time. Your comparison with the Indian/Pakistani partition in 1947 is a red herring. All that Israel has to do, without delay, is to get to the UN partition lines for a two-state solution. In other words, stop the occupation first before making unacceptable demands from the Palestinians. I respect you for your strongly held views and would defend your right to these. I hope you can also respect the views of others which are diametrically opposed to yours and are also strongly held. Cornel
Re: [Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Please see my comments below under Responses: --- Tim de Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: How are we all guilty for the Nazi Holocaust against the Jews? Tim: By virtue of being Catholics and the Pope and the Catholic Church being quiet over the holocaust even when he knew it was happening. Response: Tim, speak for yourself. I only take responsibility for my own actions, not of anyone else. Most of us were not even born when the Nazi genocide was going on. If you are shouldering all the sins of the Catholic Church through the ages you must be a real basket case. Maybe, you are also responsible for the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the pedophile priests of more recent times. and So, what is this nonsense about ALL the Israelis being Europeans? Tim: I never said that. Response: Mea culpa if you did not, but your buddy, Tony Correia-Afonso and all the other anti-Israelis certainly did. Tim de Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] CANADA
[Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## I think Tony Correia Afonso makes a specious argument when he says: I agree with Cornel that Arafat may have been corrupt, but who are the Americans to judge him? I do not think that it is only the Americans who have accused him of such a crime. There have been many Palestinians who have also made similar accusations. And the accusation of corruption has been made while Arafat was alive, and the case of a pension for his wife is only one of the many things that people in Palestine are not happy about. However, we should not end up saying that because the Americans say that so-and-so is corrupt, the person is not corrupt. As far as Tony's comment on Haliburton is concerned, I agree with him that it smacks of corruption. Sachin Phadte. _ Choose what you want to read. Protect your mail from spam. http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/hotmailspamcontrol/ Win the war in 9 steps!
Re: [Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: How are we all guilty for the Nazi Holocaust against the Jews? By virtue of being Catholics and the Pope and the Catholic Church being quiet over the holocaust even when he knew it was happening. and So, what is this nonsense about ALL the Israelis being Europeans? I never said that. Tim de Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] CANADA
Re: [Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## I have been informed that Tony Correia-Afonso is a respected elder member of the Goan community in Goa. Therefore I would request him to set an example and stick to the issues, respond specifically to the facts and arguments presented by others, and refrain from name-calling, which is a sure sign of annoyance, impatience or desperation in any debate. In my previous posting I said he had been selective in his use of the historical record, and presented a detailed analysis of why I thought so. Instead of addressing my points with specific rebuttals he responded by calling me a hypocrite and continued his selective use of the historical record as I have outlined below. Is that any way to debate? He levies a new claim that, the so-called Israelis are in fact European Jews... Can this be an accurate statement when anyone familiar with the Bible would know that native Jews had been residents of Palestine for thousands of years, and were later joined by European Jews who had survived the Holocaust. I'm sure Mr. Correia-Afonso remembers the Holocaust because of his great concern for the value of human life. This diversion from the initial debate is like arguing about how and when Hindus and Muslims occupied the Indian subcontinent and why it was necessary to partition what was then British India. It became a moot issue in 1947. After the horrendous initial chaos, everyone in India moved on, except for the thorny side issue of Kashmir, the Palestinians did not. Let me see if I can focus the attention of Mr. Correia-Afonso and his so-called supporters, who also ignored any specifics that I had laid out, and give them another opportunity to show me what I have missed, so that we all can learn something. Can anyone deny that it was the British that partitioned both India and Palestine, with UN approval, in 1947? Can anyone deny that this made prior history moot for all practical purposes? Can anyone deny the point that I tried to make, which is that Indians and Pakistanis, regardless of what they felt about it, accepted their partition and moved on with their lives, whereas the Palestinians and other Arabs never did, most of them to this day? Can anyone deny that Israel was attacked by five Arab neighbors in 1948 with the aim of pushing the Jews into the sea? Can anyone deny that the Palestininian Charter, to this day, has never been changed to reflect the acceptance of Israel to live in peace and security, that Arafat supposedly engineered? Can anyone deny that Arafat walked away from an interim agreement suggested by President Clinton in 2000 and accepted by Ehud Barak, with further negotiations to follow on remaining issues? Can anyone deny that powerful Palestinian militants, who never accepted Arafat's leadership, like Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa Brigades JUST LAST WEEK threatened to kill the PLO leadership just because Mr. Abbas asked for a cessation of hostilities? It is this sequential list of facts and the official maps that show no Israel anywhere that have led me to the conclusion that the Palestinians do not want to live with Israel in a 2 state configuration, but want to replace Israel. My conclusion was confirmed JUST LAST WEEK by the leaders of all the militant Palestinian organizations that control and dictate events on their side. Mr. Correia-Afonso seems to defend the brutal actions of the Palestinian militants when he says, Can they be expected to meekly accept such blatant injustice? The answer according to Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela is Yes!, while conducting peaceful negotiations not suicide bombings of innocent civilians. The militant suggestion by Mr. Correia-Afonso that the violence by Palestinian militants is justified by their perception that they have been wronged is not worthy of anyone who says he values life. Whose life exactly? Has Mr Correia-Afonso considered asking Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa Bridages to cease hostilities and conduct negotiations with Israel, and not threaten Mr. Abbas with death when he makes such a suggestion? I would like to assure Mr. Correia-Afonso that I, too, believe that every life is precious. However, I do not believe that the Israelis should commit collective suicide by not defending themselves from those who have vowed to exterminate them. If he really believes that life is precious, he would pay closer attention to the previous plight of the European Jews under the Nazi onslaught and realize that the world community agreed to a homeland for oppressed Jews when they formed Israel in 1947. He should also look up
Re: [Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Tim, Get real. How are we all guilty for the Nazi Holocaust against the Jews? Even India was involved in WW-II to defeat the Nazis. Israel doesn't claim all of Palestine as a historical right, so this whole line of reasoning is bogus. They accepted a small slice in 1947 as part of the UN attempt to provide them with a homeland after the Holocaust. Israel was legally formed in 1947, just as modern India was formed in 1947. Anything beyond that is useless for any other than rhetorical purposes. Aren't you even aware that Jews and Muslims inhabited Palestine since the Old Testament days and both trace their origins to Abraham? The European Jews who had survived the Nazis then fled to Israel during and after WW-II. So, what is this nonsense about ALL the Israelis being Europeans? Your example of placing Israel in Uganda is also bogus, because, unlike Palestine, Uganda had no ties to Jews in any way, shape or form. --- Tim de Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Without this US support the genocide against the Jews started by the Nazis would have been completed by the Arabs. There is no foundation for this statement. It is pure conjecture. I think that we are all guilty for what happened to the Jews under the Nazis. Ever since then we have over sympathaized with their cause to the detriment of other people's rights. Prior to the UN giving the Jews land that rightfully belonged to the Palestinians, you will recall that Theodor Herzl asked the British to help them find a homeland for the Jews. The British agreed to give part of Uganda to the Jews. This proposal had received formal British assent. If the Jews had accepted that (and for argument's sake, let us say they called it Israel) and if the Ugandans wanted their land back by driving the Jews out of Uganda would that be wrong? Would you be saying the same thing to them i.e. they NEVER ACCEPTED ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO EVEN EXIST. And would the Ugandan natives be considered terrorists? So yes, what the Nazis did to the Jews was wrong and nobody will dispute that but two wrongs do not make a right. Nobody disputes the facts that the Jews need to live in peace. The question, I think, is wheter we agree with the concept of Zionism. Many Jews do not buy into the this concept. To be anti-Zionist is NOT synonymous with being anti-semitic. If the Jews claim Palestinian lands as a historical right (over 2000 years ago) then should all countries be ceding rights to the original inhabitants on the same basis - and their history does not even go back that long, e.g. Australia, USA, Canada, practically all of South America? And if these original inhabitants started fighting back like Began and his Zionist friends did with terrorist attacks to secure their own state, would they be considered terrorists? Tim de Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] CANADA
Re: [Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Bosco, You are obviously a gentleman and a scholar because you have responded to some very emotional, hostile and one sided comments with a pretty balanced exposition of the Palestinian problem. Partitions of countries, by definition, will be fair or unfair depending on how one is affected. My own comparative analysis starts with the UN approved events of 1947 where one partition was accepted on the Indian sub-continent and after some transitional chaos, everyone moved on, but the other has never been accepted by the Arabs, to this day. Not only that, the Arabs tried to impose their will by force in 1948, rather than follow the Gandhian way of civil disobedience and negotiations, and their militants are still trying to impose their will by force. I believe that going beyond 1947 in Palestine to how everyone got there and in what proportions, is akin to arguing about how the Hindus and Muslims got to India and why that partition was necessary. To me, the ancient history became moot after 1947, other than for those who want to inject emotion into the debate, and does not contribute to any rational solution. Mr. Correia-Afonso seems to believe the fiction that all the Israelis came from Europe. The fact is that while many of them did come from Europe after having survived the Nazi genocide, we know that native Jews have been there since the time of Abraham. The critics curiously ignore the Holocaust in Europe perpetrated by the Nazis, and how this led the world community to the conclusion that the Jews needed a state of their own, and they situated that state in a bleak and barren desert area where Jews and Muslims had co-existed since Biblical times. The critics of Israel also ignore the committment by the US and Israel, made in 2000 by Bill Clinton and Ehud Barak, to a 2 state solution, with all issues to be negotiated once hostilities cease. Yasser Arafat participated in the negotiations but walked away from the table and re-ignited the intifadah after Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount. They could have protested with non-violent marches, but chose to resume the violence and suicide bombings of innocent Israeli citizens. I am very sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians because I have several friends and business clients among them, and have actually helped them raise funds to provide computers for the kids in the camps. However, I see no hope for them as long as they reject Israel's right to exist in peace and security. I am pessimistic that they will for several reasons: a) Events are being controlled not by Palestinians who want peace but by their militants who are willing to kill anyone who wants peace with Israel. b) They have refused to change their charter to reflect their acceptance of Israel c) All their official maps of the region show no state of Israel d) Their textbooks teach the most virulent hatred of the Jews, calling them monkeys and pigs e) Just last week their militants tried to kill Mohammad Abbas, Arafat's interim successor, just because he asked for a cessation of hostilities against Israel so that dialog could resume While occupation is an occupation sounds logical it is also simplistic and misleading and changes meaning completely when one realizes that it came about by virtue of a defense against an attack and an attempt by the Palestinians to eliminate the whole state of Israel since 1947-48. I'm am glad to see that you picked up on the fiction that the squalid camps in Palestine are like Soweto, which is a classic example of the injection of emotion into the debate. While Soweto is squalid it is far better that a typical Dharavi-type jhopdi settlement in India, but the Palestinian camps are of pukka construction and are no worse that any middle-income neighborhood in any Indian city. Mr. Correia-Afonso, while alleging that the poor Palestinians live in squalid camps, then turns around and seems quite sanguine about Suha Arafat's negotiated deal to be paid US$22 million a year just to disclose where the billion or so that her husband stole from those same Palestinians was hidden. He asks what business this is of the Americans, seemingly oblivious to the fact that more funds for the Palestinians comes from the US than any other country, including the rich Arab states. Then Mr. Correia-Afonso triumphantly throws in what he considers his trump card, the classic red herring of the no-bid contracts for Halliburton and the gratuitious comment that Dick Cheney used to be the CEO of Halliburton. The facts are as follows: a) Halliburton is a world leader in oilfield supplies and
Re: [Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Without this US support the genocide against the Jews started by the Nazis would have been completed by the Arabs. There is no foundation for this statement. It is pure conjecture. I think that we are all guilty for what happened to the Jews under the Nazis. Ever since then we have over sympathaized with their cause to the detriment of other people's rights. Prior to the UN giving the Jews land that rightfully belonged to the Palestinians, you will recall that Theodor Herzl asked the British to help them find a homeland for the Jews. The British agreed to give part of Uganda to the Jews. This proposal had received formal British assent. If the Jews had accepted that (and for argument's sake, let us say they called it Israel) and if the Ugandans wanted their land back by driving the Jews out of Uganda would that be wrong? Would you be saying the same thing to them i.e. they NEVER ACCEPTED ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO EVEN EXIST. And would the Ugandan natives be considered terrorists? So yes, what the Nazis did to the Jews was wrong and nobody will dispute that but two wrongs do not make a right. Nobody disputes the facts that the Jews need to live in peace. The question, I think, is wheter we agree with the concept of Zionism. Many Jews do not buy into the this concept. To be anti-Zionist is NOT synonymous with being anti-semitic. If the Jews claim Palestinian lands as a historical right (over 2000 years ago) then should all countries be ceding rights to the original inhabitants on the same basis - and their history does not even go back that long, e.g. Australia, USA, Canada, practically all of South America? And if these original inhabitants started fighting back like Began and his Zionist friends did with terrorist attacks to secure their own state, would they be considered terrorists? Tim de Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] CANADA
Re: [Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## I think you are letting your emotions and personal biases get in the way of your objectivity. You are correct that the US has guaranteed Israel's existence and security. Without this US support the genocide against the Jews started by the Nazis would have been completed by the Arabs. Maybe this is OK with you, but not by the Americans. Your personal bias is further illustrated when you mention only Bush and Sharon, without mentioning Clinton and Barak. The latter two leaders negotiated a detailed interim agreement with Arafat in 2000, with further negotiations to follow, which he walked away from at the last moment. If you REALLY look at ALL the available evidence, not just the part that fits your pre-conceived agenda, you would see that the militant Palestinians and Arabs who control the community through threats and intimidation, have NEVER ACCEPTED ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO EVEN EXIST. In 1947 they tried to achieve this when 5 Arab countries invaded the new state with the goal of pushing the Jews into the sea. Today they try to impose their will by a combination of attacks on Israeli forces and by deadly suicide attacks on innocent Israeli civilians. Just last week they almost killed Mr. Abbas, who has been nominated to fill in for Arafat until a new leader is elected, just because he asked for a cessation of hostilities against Israel. Did you even know that? To understand what I am saying you need to read the Palestinian charter, which has never been changed even though Arafat claimed that they now accepted Israel's existence. Look at the official Palestinian maps of the region which show no Israel. You also need to look at what the leaders of the militant groups like Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Arafat's own Al Aqsa Brigades are saying. They are NOT saying that they will negotiate a 2 state solution if the Israelis do certain things. They are saying they will NEVER accept an Israeli state. I have done a lot of such background research before coming to the conclusion that the militant Arabs do not want to live in peace with Israel, they want to replace Israel. Since they have no intentions of negotiating a 2 state configuration, I wonder what you supporters of the Palestinians think Israel is supposed to do? --- cornel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## To me, the available evidence suggests that at the heart of Israeli 'terrorism' against the Palestinians, at least since 1948, lies American uncritical support for Israel and total lack of even-handedness. Without this 'big brother', Israel would have come to heed UN rulings of 1948 long ago. I have said before on Goanet, and I repeat-- Bush and Sharon are the greatest terrorists around today. The world would be safer and more peaceful without such warrior leaders who have such a huge appetite for occupation of lands which are not theirs. I admit to not having a position on India's three days of mourning for Arafat as I do not know the facts on this count. Cornel
[Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Why did India (Goa) declare 3 days of mourning on Mr. Arafat's passing?? Is it only because we have a Congress-led government at the center and Mr. Arafat was present for Mrs. Gandhi's funeral ?? Does India regularly declare mourning when world leaders pass away ?? I think we can debate the Israeli-Palestinian conflict till we're blue in the face. As Tariq rightly says an Occupation is Occupation..on the flipside history tells us the Israelis were at war for more than a year in 1948 to create the state of Israel. The Israelis will never give up an inch of land when they fought long and hard to obtain it. Many of Israel's present day political leaders have fought in it's many wars, including Nobel Laureate (Peace) Yitzhak Rabin. The Jews always had the upperhand from the get-go after the Holocaust albeit they were buying land from the Palestinians long before 1948 similar to how non-Goans are buying vast tracts of land in Goa. Nevertheless viewing the Palestinians living in ghettoized environments is reminiscent of Sowetoonly here it is more concrete than corrugated metal. I hope the community of nations and the people involved on both sides will come together to alleviate the conditions of the Palestinians while at the same time safeguarding the habitants of Israel. Mr. Correia-Afonso's comparisons of Arafat with other luminary figures of history is misplaced. Would he consider the mujahedin (LeT) in Kashmir as heroes ?? Would he consider the proponents of an armed assault to extricate Goa from India as heroes ?? Mr. Correia-Afonso says Let us not put a label on people on the basis of our own pre-conceived notions or, what is worse, on notions conceived for us by vested interests. Let history be the judge of who is a hero and who is a terrorist. RESPONSE: Exactly !! You are giving us your pre-conceived notion too !! There's plenty of reading matter available - Israeli/American, European, Arab, Muslim, Jewish, left-wing, right-wing, shock-jock, etc. that helps us make an opinion. The original poster, Comet, had his opinion - Arafat was a terrorist besides being a jet-setting, city-hopping, gun-toting, wheeling-dealing, etc. etc. etc...!! Why the holiday ?? Holidays have economic consequences !! Best wishes - Bosco --- Goanet - http://www.goanet.org - Goa's premier mailing list is 10 years old
Re: [Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Tony Correia Afonso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you Radhakrishnan and Cornel for supporting my stand. I agree with Cornel that Arafat may have been corrupt, but who are the Americans to judge him? If awarding a pension to his wife (now his widow) is to be considered as corruption, how does one describe the award of no-bid contracts in Iraq worth millions of dollars to a firm (Halliburton) of which the Vice-President of the U.S. was the C.E.O? A case of spreading freedom and democracy, perhaps? You can count me as one supporting your stand as well. You have, very clearly, pointed out one of the greatest injustices of modern times in a manner that I could certainly never emulate. It is pity that there are many people who prefer to blame the victims. -Tariq __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com
[Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Tony: I agree with you. There is a history about Arafat that is rarely told and his forced involment with terror (which is not to say I condone it - but I understand). This excerpt from the NATION (11 Nov 04) says much, especially the last sentence. We in the West too often ignore what no Palestinian will ever forget: After the Palestinians' catastrophic defeat of 1948, when some 750,000 were expelled from their homeland and began living in destitution in refugee camps scattered across half a dozen countries, forgotten by the world, abused and cynically exploited by Arab despots and demagogues, it was Arafat who, along with a few comrades, gave birth to the Palestinian liberation movement. It was the PLO, under Arafat's leadership, that restored Palestinian pride and helped to forge a nation out of a population that was geographically dispersed and politically divided. And it was Arafat who led the PLO, in the face of fierce internal resistance, into adopting the two-state solution in the mid-1970s. But his conciliatory peace offering at the UN General Assembly in 1974, and numerous subsequent peace feelers, were met with persistent rebuffs from Israel and the United States. Regards, George --- Tony Correia Afonso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please understand that the so-called Israelis are in fact European Jews who have forcibly occupied vast tracts of Palestinian Arab lands, illegally constructed settlements therein and driven out those who have been living there for a couple of thousand years into squalid refugee camps where they live under sub-human conditions. Can they be expected to meekly accept such blatant injustice?
[Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## In his response to my posting on the subject, Mario Gouveia accuses me of being selective when making comparisons between Arafat and other celebrities accused of being terrorists. In point of fact, it is those who accuse Arafat and other leaders like him who are fighting for their peoples' rights of being terrorists, whilst being themselves guilty of the worst terorist crimes, who are being selective as well as being hypocrites. Please understand that the so-called Israelis are in fact European Jews who have forcibly occupied vast tracts of Palestinian Arab lands, illegally constructed settlements therein and driven out those who have been living there for a couple of thousand years into squalid refugee camps where they live under sub-human conditions. Can they be expected to meekly accept such blatant injustice? As I have stated in my post, every human life is precious and any unnecessary loss of such a life is to be decried. Mario rightly sheds tears for the lives of Israeli civilians killed by Palestinian suicide bombers. I hope he spares a thought for the thousands of Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli air attacks and tank fire in civilian areas. Comparisons are odious, as they say, but whatever attrocities the Palestinians Arabs may be accused of perpetrating on the Israelis pale into insignificance when compared with the systematic persecution of the Jewish race by European Christians over two thousand years, culminating in the Holocaust. Is it right for Palestinian Arabs to be paying for the crimes of European Christians? Thank you Radhakrishnan and Cornel for supporting my stand. I agree with Cornel that Arafat may have been corrupt, but who are the Americans to judge him? If awarding a pension to his wife (now his widow) is to be considered as corruption, how does one describe the award of no-bid contracts in Iraq worth millions of dollars to a firm (Halliburton) of which the Vice-President of the U.S. was the C.E.O? A case of spreading freedom and democracy, perhaps? Let truth prevail! ---Tony Correia-Afonso.
Re: [Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## With all due respect, Mr. Tony Correia-Afonso's point of view, based on a selective use of history, absolutely cries out for an opposing opinion based on all the facts. Mentioning Yasser Arafat in the same context as Jesus Christ, America's founding fathers and Nelson Mandela? Citing the ratio of Palestinian lives lost to Israeli lives lost, and Iraqi lives lost to American lives lost without any context or perspective on action versus reaction, and what has and is actually happening? Piously talking about being taught about the value of life? Can such teachings be used in an intellectual vacuum? What does true education about the value of life teach us about defending ourselves against those who want to kill us, in the case of the Israelis, and of shedding our own blood in order to save the lives of others, which is part of the American attempt to bring freedom and democracy to Afghanistan and Iraq? Has Mr Correia-Afonso criticized with equal vehemence the Palestinian goal of eliminating Israel and the taking of innocent Israeli lives by suicide bombers. Did he criticize with equal vehemence the massive killings of Iranis, Kuwaitis, Kurds and Shia by Saddam Hussein and his sadistic sons? Or is his anger only aimed very selectively at those who have acted to oppose those killings. Jesus Christ was a radical Jew whose principal philosophy was about loving your neighbor as yourself. America's founding fathers fought openly against British forces, not British civilians, and invented the most ingenious form of government known to man. Nelson Mandela fought against the most hideous policy of apartheid, the most abhorrent policy in post-Nazi history, a concept far more vile and degrading than the racism in any other colony. He never supported or encouraged attacks on innocent civilians, and opposed violence even against those who imprisoned him. There were two partitions in 1947-48 engineered by the British with the approval of the UN. One was the Indian sub-continent, the other in Palestine. Whatever one thinks about these events the fact remains that the Indians and Pakistanis accepted their partition, and after the horrifying initial chaos, went on with their lives. Kashmir was an issue separate from the primary partition, and continues to fester. No Indian or Pakistani demands a right of return or compensation or any such thing. Neither India nor Pakistan has in their founding charters or constitutions the complete elimination of the other, as the Palestinian Charter still does. In spite of subsequent acknowledgments by some, but not all Arabs, of the right of Israel to exist in peace and security, the charter was never revised, and several Palestinians and most of the Arab countries, except Egypt, Jordan and some of the smaller Gulf states, still do not recognize Israel. In 1948, every Arab neighbor of the fledgling Israel, including the Egypt and Jordan that now accept Israel, militarily attacked it with the goal of pushing the Jews into the sea. The invasion failed as did subsequent attempts, each with additional losses of territory, the most recent in 1967. The militant Palestinian organizations, Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Yasser Arafat's own Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade vow to this day that their goal is to eliminate Israel. Let me repeat that. They want to eliminate Israel. In addition to attacking Israeli forces as true freedom fighters would, these groups routinely conduct attacks on innocent Israeli civilians, including suicide homicides whenever they can, all in an attempt to achieve their objectives by force and terror. None of it has worked, simply because the Israelis have no choice but to fight back, and the overall security of Israel has been guaranteed by the USA, which is the root cause of the hatred of America among a large segment of Muslim society. In 2000, as part of a heroic attempt by President Bill Clinton, Yasser Arafat was offered 95% of what he had demanded, with negotiations to follow on the remaining 5%, in return for formally recognizing Israel's right to exist in peace and security. Arafat walked away from the agreement. Why? The stated reason was that the agreement left the issue of either right of return or the alternative of compensation to the subsequent negotiations, and he found that unacceptable. Others say he was afraid that those Palestinians who still want to eliminate Israel would have assassinated him if he had accepted Israel's right to exist in peace and security. Readers can make up their own minds in the context of what they see happening. In the
Re: [Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Well said Tony Correia-|Afonso. My position, as you may have gleaned from some of my earlier emails, is exactly the same as yours about the tragic situation re Palestine. However, I must admit to some unease about the way Arafat managed Palestinian money. For instance, the size of the pension (plus other benefits) to his widow, Suha, beggars belief. There was also a lot of widespread corruption too, and no doubt, these will be factored in over an eventual historical judgement on Arafat. Cornel
[Goanet]Re: Arafat Terrorism
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Someone on this forum criticised the Indian Government for declaring 3 days' mourning for Yasser Arafat, repeating the familiar Israeli/American line dubbing him a terrorist. It is said that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. By the same token one could state that declaring one to be a terrorist or a national hero entirely depends on which side of the fence you are on! Not so long ago, Nelson Mandela was declared to be a terrorist by none other than Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan. Today he is a Nobel Prize Winner and respected throughout the world as an elder statesman! By President Bush's definition, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin and all the Founding Fathers of the American Revolution would be dubbed as terrorists or at least as isurgentsby their British rulers (as are the Iraqis opposing American occupation of their country.) The Romans also had Christ crucified as a terrorist, since he was judged to be a rebel in conflict with Roman law and Roman rule, then prevailing in Palestine by virtue of their conquest of the land by force of arms.Two thousand years later, large tracts of the same Palestine are illegally occupied by European Jews by force of arms, who have forced millions of Palestinian Arabs from their land into refugee camps, where they have been forced to live in sub-human conditions for over fifty years! The irony of it is that throughout the centuries when the Jews were persecuted and subject to pogroms by Christian Europe cultiminating in massacre of 8 million Jews by the Nazis in the Holocaust, they were given protection by Muslim Arabs such as the Caliphs of Baghdad. Today the same Jews are making the self-same Arabs pay for the crimes committed against them by Christian Europe! They say that even a worm turns when attacked. What reaction can you expect when you see Israeli warplanes and helicopter gunships fire missiles into densely populated civilian urban areas killing innocent men, women and children? We live in a materialistic and commercial age where everything is judged by its market value and its exchange value, including human life. We were allways taught to belive that life is priceless and the value of every human life is the same. In today's world, however, the exchange rate for every Israeli life is 20 Palestinian lives and in Iraq it is approx. 15 Iraqi lives for every American life. Let us not put a label on people on the basis of our own pre-conceived notions or, what is worse, on notions conceived for us by vested interests. Let history be the judge of who is a hero and who is a terrorist. ---Tony Correia-Afonso.
