Re: [h-cost] Venice c. 1600
Robin, Do you want *anyone* from anywhere in the world, or someone that can communicate in English? I have access to mitt loads of both, some of which don't speak English and/or are working right in Venice. Kathy It’s never too late to be who you might have been.-George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc/Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. -Irish proverb One can never consent to creep when one feels an impulse to soar.-Helen Keller The difference between stupid and intelligent people - and this is true whether or not they are educated - is that intelligent people can handle subtlety. They are not baffled by ambiguous or even contradictory situations. In fact, they expect them and are apt to be suspicious when things seem overly straightforward. - Neal Stephenson, The Diamond Age It's not who you are that holds you back, it's who you think you're not. - Denis Waitley Once more I'm faced with a query way outside my own area of expertise, so I figured I'd see if you folks can give me some clues. For those of you who study Italian Renaissance: Who would you say are the best living scholars of Venetian dress, c. 1600, or, failing that, Venetian portraiture or art history of this era? By scholars, I mean those with academic credentials, positions, or publications. In this case, the need is for someone to cite, not someone to make clothing. In other words, who do the historic-clothing-makers look to as the authorities here? Everyone I can think of is either deceased or working in earlier periods, alas. --Robin __ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] drafting/scaling corsets to size,
Hi Zuzanna, I just wanted to post a question about what methods you use when drafting/scaling corsets to size. Any way that works at the time. ;-) Generally speaking I create a proportionately close copy of the original I am working from based on the bust/waist/hip measurement I am aiming for, create a toile, and start tailoring it in from there. I try not to mess too heavily with the original silhouette, however. a corset is designed to shape the body rather than to adjust to it. Yes and no. It's primary purpose is bust support, then torso shaping. This also depends on what era you are looking at, but I think the conversation is referring to the mid/late 1800's, so I won't confuse the issue. ;-) It's only this era and onward that was more concerned with torso compression than any other. I draft all patterns I make, but I still cannot draft a corset that would achieve the period, not modern, figure. I mix and match my techniques. I am still a little queasy on drafting vic patterns, but georgian and older I can do without trouble. I always prefer drape drafting for later eras and flat patterning for the older ones, because they tend to be a little more geometric than later eras. When following a specific era closely, you have to take into account the body type differences and posture variations between the two, and accept you may have to make allowance for the two in order for them to meet. It's just like the placement of a shoulder seam - do you put it in the period correct place and have it either fit funny or end up in a visually wrong place, or do you adjust it to fit correctly and end up in the visually correct location on a modern body? When I drafted this pattern (the one I posted is the same pattern I am using for my current project) I had to make an allowance for difference between the spoon busk used in the original in exchange for the flat busk I have available. So I had to nip a little here and there to flatten out the front, but widen the side front to allow for the correct compression. I am still working on the fit, I'll have to let you know how that goes. Literally in the middle of preparing to sew the fitting toile I got a call back for a job (ya!!) so my time has now been cut down significantly for projects such as these. It's maybe best to make the right proportions (width and height) in photoshop and then print it to the correct size. If you can accomplish it, then go for it. I just couldn't be bothered fussing with that formula listed on the pattern I posted. ;-) I, unlike Michaela (sp? correct person?) prefer to draft to the width then length of the torso because to me, shortening something is much easier than having to second guess the intended silhouette. Each to their own as long as it has the intended end result. So, may I ask, what methods do you use when making a corset pattern? If it is not your trade secret, of course:-) nah I don't consider knowledge proprietary, really. ;-) Other institutions have different ideas about this than I do, however... Toile is most important - the test fitting should be providing some support without the stiffening by the time you are finished fitting. The stiffening material is simply designed to keep the garment from collapsing or shifting during wear. It also helps take stress off seams under high tension. This is what provides the torso shaping when the fabric is restricted in stretch and movement. Hopefully that makes sense, and if it did, that is was useful. :-) Kathy It’s never too late to be who you might have been.-George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc/Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. -Irish proverb One can never consent to creep when one feels an impulse to soar.-Helen Keller The difference between stupid and intelligent people - and this is true whether or not they are educated - is that intelligent people can handle subtlety. They are not baffled by ambiguous or even contradictory situations. In fact, they expect them and are apt to be suspicious when things seem overly straightforward. - Neal Stephenson, The Diamond Age It's not who you are that holds you back, it's who you think you're not. - Denis Waitley __ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Corset pattern 1895
This is an original pattern from 1898 someone has scanned in and even explained how one could resize it on the computer. I couldn't figure out exactly what they were talking about, so I simply printed it on mylar and proportionately enlarged it. It made it too long, but that's fairly fixable. With any corset pattern, you should be test fitting it several times anyway. http://www.staylace.com/updatelogs/graphics/school_corset.gif I'm trying my hand at sewing again. I had the urge to get back in thesaddle right in time to finally secure a job. :-) Irony abounds! I'm trying to make a black leather show girl costume in time for a competition in May. I decided to give my imagination free reign, which it still isn't used to. ;-) Cheers, Kathy It’s never too late to be who you might have been.-George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc/Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. -Irish proverb One can never consent to creep when one feels an impulse to soar.-Helen Keller The difference between stupid and intelligent people - and this is true whether or not they are educated - is that intelligent people can handle subtlety. They are not baffled by ambiguous or even contradictory situations. In fact, they expect them and are apt to be suspicious when things seem overly straightforward. - Neal Stephenson, The Diamond Age It's not who you are that holds you back, it's who you think you're not. - Denis Waitley __ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Wedding traditions (was Tango in a Hoop )
I have largely been bypassing this thread for a while, but a thought came to mind whilst jumping into random discussions. I finally found a little inspiration! I made a pretty garland for my front door and a lovely gold and tiger's eye necklace to wear at my daughter's Christmas concert. I am so pleased with myself. I don't know when the date of this wedding under discussion is, but I used to make ribbon embroidered, French heirloom sewn garters for brides. It was often one of my gifts to them. I may still have my collection of antique hankies, too.I still have all of my silk ribbons and embroidery silks in loads of shades of blue, and vintage laces kicking around. If the bride in question thinks I have enough time to make one and then have it arrive to her in time, I could be convinced of the idea. :-) It's a small enough project that I won't feel overwhelmed. I'm taking little steps at a time. It's a thought. Kathy It’s never too late to be who you might have been.-George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc/Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. -Irish proverb One can never consent to creep when one feels an impulse to soar.-Helen Keller People don’t mind being used; what they mind is being discarded.-Chris Matthews Pride makes us do things well, but it is love, that makes us do them to perfection.-H. Jackson Brown - Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: h-costume@mail.indra.com Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 2:00:38 PM Subject: h-costume Digest, Vol 6, Issue 567 Send h-costume mailing list submissions to h-costume@mail.indra.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can reach the person managing the list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of h-costume digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: Wedding traditions (was Tango in a Hoop ) (Barbara -_- M aren) 2. Re: Re: Wedding traditions (was Tango in a Hoop ) (Adele de Maisieres) 3. Re: Re: Wedding traditions (was Tango in a Hoop ) ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 4. Re: Re: Wedding traditions (was Tango in a Hoop ) bluegarter seller (Melody Watts) 5. opinions of Past patterns #001 for Regency (Elizabeth Walpole) 6. Masque Costume (Suzi Clarke) 7. Re: Re: Wedding traditions (was Tango in a Hoop ) (LLOYD MITCHELL) 8. Re: Masque Costume (Carmen Beaudry) -- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:08:38 +1100 From: Barbara -_- M aren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [h-cost] Re: Wedding traditions (was Tango in a Hoop ) To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi De, 2007/12/8, otsisto [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Actually, the blue comes from the saying wear something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue. Which was originally: Something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue and a silver sixpence in her shoe. English bridal tradition from the Victorian era. ... Whose telling you have to have a blue garter? A friend of us who will be MC at the reception. He has apparently been to 6 (German) weddings already this year. The color blue is alleged to be a symbol of love, modesty and fidelity. I read about the tradition to wear etwas Altes, etwas Neues, etwas Geliehenes, etwas Blaues in a German booklet with marriage tips. But it was quoted to me again by a friend of us who will be MC at our reception and has apparently been at 6 (German) weddings this year already. It just occurred to me the other day that it actually rhymes in English something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue. The booklet said the color blue was to symbolise the hope for a son. I think that prior to the Edwardian era, that blue was a popular color for wedding dresses but I can't remember where I read that. Hm, at the costume museum in Bath, I remember seeing pre-1900 bridal dresses which weren't white, and many could probably just count as Sunday best , but couldn't spot a trend to a particular color like blue. In fact, I think even then light, pastel or cream colors dominated. Carol, I will try a bridal shop for a blue garter. I will ask them if they haven't heard of the tradition :-) B M -- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:12:12 +1300 From: Adele de Maisieres [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Wedding traditions (was Tango in a Hoop ) To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Barbara -_- M aren wrote: think that prior to the Edwardian era, that blue was a popular color for wedding dresses but I can't remember where
[h-cost] Re: Vendor: Threads in Time
Not heard of them, but I can supply the undergarment she will need. Pretty in peach silk even. Only hitch is fitting. ;-) Kathy It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. -Irish proverb Use what talent you possess: the woods would be very silent if no birds sang except those that sang best. - Henry van Dyke Pride makes us do things well, but it is love, that makes us do them to perfection. -H. Jackson Brown I said I'd check with h-costume see if anyone's bought from them. We hope to find out pretty quick if anyone's had quality, delivery or payment issues with the vendor. snip Hi Cin, I was looking around online today and found the following page: http://threadsintime.net/id1.html snip Make free worldwide PC-to-PC calls. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: To the lady who had the idea about the fleas and the thong
Actually, I do have one in my own name. I had it long before I had him. I had sterling, well established credit when I met him. It's dubious at best now. So I have taken him off every account I can legally yank his name from. Around here, basics like phone and cable are very expensive start up costs if you have bad credit and no recent history with the company. I had thought about reporting his card stolen, but that would yank my card with it, I would believe- it would freeze the entire account. I could be wrong. But, that is also playing dirty pool. Since I have no official, gainful employment that a bank can confirm, I have no money of my own so I need to keep every option open to me until that circumstance changes. I might be getting underwear revenge, but I could end up shooting myself in the foot in the long run. Besides, the bills come to me, I back track the purchases, and mount up even more proof that he is having an affair with someone who he keeps trying to tell me is just a friend. heh. Not anymore. Playing my cards as carefully as my vengeful urges allow me, Kathy. Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lions head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. Who you are is contained inside, and no one can change that. They can only assist you in denying who you are, but not indelibly reshape you to their own image. I was just thinking: If your ex is using your joint credit card, it could be a legal process to untangle. What if you reported it stolen, so he can't use it, and apply for another card under your own name? Fran Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: ideas
I might use this idea. The Visa bill came in. He has been buying her lingerie on our joint account, and since I'm the one that still has an address I get the bills. Then, he bitches at me for every dime I am costing him - enough that he has suggested I keep the heat off in the house this winter. I hope that thong gives her rug burn. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lions head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. Who you are is contained inside, and no one can change that. They can only assist you in denying who you are, but not indelibly reshape you to their own image. Have a badly flea-infested dog sleep in them for a few nights, then send them to your ex as a gift. Dog fleas will bite humans if no dog is available. Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: more on tea gowns
I have two Past Patterns tea gown patterns - at least one of them is no longer in print. If you are interested, I can dig them out for you. Kathy ~she of the still-huge hoard of patterns~ Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lions head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. Who you are is contained inside, and no one can change that. They can only assist you in denying who you are, but not indelibly reshape you to their own image. Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Valuation of collection
Hello everyone, The divorce saga continues. Ugh. My collection is large enough that it's going to wind up on the inventory list for the division of assets. Oh joy. I have to reduce my collection to a bunch of numbers. Some of these things were for my personal collection and thus I never bothered to count hours put in, so I have NO clue what I would valuate them at. Trying to do searches on various costuming sites is proving very lengthy and tedious - time I just don't have since I am scrambling to rebuild myself enough to find a job (anyone having leads for a lowly costumer in dire need of a place to work, do let me know!) and keep up with my soon-to-be- ex's demanding schedule. Apparently I should be waking up one morning totally over it and greeting him at the door like my best buddy already. Then again twelve years of his life was a complete waste of time to him. So much for memories. Getting on with it, I was hoping that everyone as costumers would be willing to throw your opinions - they don't have to be vastly detailed, just a round number - on what these items are worth on the market. Some of them already have a valuation, which you will see - these ones I did count, and are very flexible now. The numbers merely represent actual hours and actual materials costs - I charged myself out $10.00/hr. I am sitting here right now as I type - well, you know what I mean. ;-) putting up measurements for those whom have contacted me with interest for my pieces. That will give you a start on your decision making process. Anything I plan on keeping is marked not for sale. But, if you like it just that much, we can talk. Thanks for your patience with the harried, rather miserable creature that I am, Kathy ~He didn't think the bed prank was as funny as I did. But it was very satisfying!~ Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lions head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. Who you are is contained inside, and no one can change that. They can only assist you in denying who you are, but not indelibly reshape you to their own image. Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Costume Valuation
Gah! It's the missing link! Sorry I didn't include it. http://picasaweb.google.com/49victor/KathySCostuming Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lions head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. Who you are is contained inside, and no one can change that. They can only assist you in denying who you are, but not indelibly reshape you to their own image. Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Victorian costume collection
Where are you? Sylvia I am about an hour's drive west of Toronto, Ontario. But I'm happy to ship to anywhere in the world. :-) I just realised that my soon-to-be ex had uploaded all of my portfolio to his Picasa account, thinking I needed a copy. I had them in my drive, but this is a convenient mistake: http://picasaweb.google.com/49victor/KathySCostuming It's not sorted yet, and I don't currently have access to the account to do any sorting. Any men's wear, children's wear or anything pre-1600 is not for sale. Anything else I will consider. Although I would really like to keep my hoop dress, the right price will sell it. I can always make another one. I am so sorry to hear that. Where do you live? I can paint/sew, etc. and would be happy to help. I'm pretty good with tools, too. Comes from years as a theatre tech. For the costumes: This was posted on Tribe Lost Colony buildings destroyed in fire snip Sharon Hm I wonder if I called to offer my collection, we could come to an arrangement. Thanks for the offer. If you were anywhere near me, I'd have you here in a heartbeat. :-) I have so much to do, all little annoying things, some need professionals. My SIL is a lighting engineer and interior designer that used to stage houses for realtors, so as far as that goes, I have a good consultant. We are having a grand time spending his money to fix the house he no longer lives in. ;-) Have you heard the one about the woman whose husband and new girlfriend/wife wanted to move into her home, which she couldn't afford now he had dumped her? She put fresh shrimp in the hollow curtain rods and moved out. *L* Yes, I have heard it. I thought about pushing a chunk of roadkill into the mattress, but I'd have to find a way of opening a seam, then replacing it without being noticeable. I just thought my perfume would be nauseating enough to him that he won't sleep well. This is the stuff that he said not long ago he liked because it reminded him of me. And incidentally, my mother bought me so much of it, I could bathe in the lotion and bottles of perfume. I'm just going to spray, smear and powder that damned thing until it reeks, then package it up in plastic, looking like I am being pleasant and efficient. It'll be too late by the time he gets it to his cozy, furnished and convenient little basement apartment that he'll be stuck with it. He can't afford to buy a new one now, anyway. The smell will go away - eventually. Yes, I am evil! Kathy ~who's ex thinks my making comments in an email about cold beds is funny. He didn't see my face when I wrote it~ Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lions head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. Who you are is contained inside, and no one can change that. They can only assist you in denying who you are, but not indelibly reshape you to their own image. Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Victorian costume collection
Well, things have certainly changed around my house lately. I am down by a husband and up by twice the responsibility of home and child. Bit of a surprise for me; interesting 12th anniversary present - he got a new girlfriend. I also have the additional job of being chief decorator and interior schlep for this monstrosity, on top of trying to find myself gainful, on-the-books work if I am going to have any shot in hell of keeping this house. If I can't find something that will pay the bills, I have to sell it. In the very likely event that will happen, I have to redecorate and repair everything I had been nagging him to do for years as it was, only with less money and time. Now I am not likely to ever enjoy the fruits of these labours. That being said, I have this huge collection of Victorian/Edwardian, and a smidge of American Confed costuming that *really* needs a home now. I can't afford to have it taking up space, and now that I have to pay for a divorce, I could use the money. So much for that special make-me-feel-better-about-me stuff I was going to do with that money one day. *sigh* Anyway, if anyone knows of a venue that could purchase my stuff, I would be happy for the leads. I have now become very negotiable on the prices. Off to pour my perfume all over the mattress he wants to take from the house. Hope she likes my choices. Heh, hope he can live with his. ;-) Kathy ~bitter? nooohohohoo...~ Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lions head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. Who you are is contained inside, and no one can change that. They can only assist you in denying who you are, but not indelibly reshape you to their own image. Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Heat n Bond Hell
Thanks for the suggestions. I chose the ultra because I had enough of it on hand, and the garment in question will see hard wear. I wouldn't trust the ultra to hold without help under repeated beatings and heavy washing. Also the motif has internal detail that was best served by sewing them on rather than painting. Also, given that this is an Anglo-Scandinavian fighting tunic, paint just doesn't seem right. ;-) The cone thread could very possibly be poly, I have no clue. Thinner is almost a definite possibility, however. I had replaced the needle, ran it with another fabric scrap, rethreaded it, respun the bobbin, you name the troubleshooting, I did it. Nothing worked. Ultimately, I just had to fight my way through having to clean the needle and scrape it with my seam ripper once an inch or less, until the project was finished. The stitching isn't as perfect as I would prefer it, but I'm taking what I can get. Much to my delight, it's all but complete, I'm just hemming the monster now. Whew! My machine, a #1+, takes just about anything, short of metallic threads. Even with a metallic needle, it still eats it for breakfast. But everything else runs like a dream through it. I simply prefer Gutermann for the durability and smooth finish of the seam. Normally, I use Sullivan's Fray Stop Spray and a spray on adhesive combination to applique with. That Sullivan's is brilliant stuff, especially on velvet cutwork. Spray the wrong side, let dry, and cut with an exacto blade. It'll cut like paper all but laser clean. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lions head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. Who you are is contained inside, and no one can change that. They can only assist you in denying who you are, but not indelibly reshape you to their own image. Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Heat n Bond Hell
NOW I remember why I hate that stuff. I just had the weirdest thing happen while using it. I am appliqueing a cotton/linen blend midweight fabric and used the ultra bond, the thread is Gutermann cotton thread. The first two appliques went fine- a total dream; I was using plain cone thread for that. I switch to the Gutermann, and all hell breaks loose. The satin stitch starts skipping stitches and the needle is gummed up with sticky goop. I have to clean off my needle roughly once an inch. Nothing had changed from one pair to the other, except the thread and the weather. I was ripping my hair out trying to figure out what the problem was. The best we could come up with was the slight rise in humidity with the new weather front has caused the heat n bond to soften. I even tried to dry it with a hot iron, but that didn't work, either. Anyone else have this happen, and is there anything I can do to make it stop?? Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lions head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. Who you are is contained inside, and no one can change that. They can only assist you in denying who you are, but not indelibly reshape you to their own image. Get news delivered with the All new Yahoo! Mail. Enjoy RSS feeds right on your Mail page. Start today at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: batiste weight linen
Ohhh... are you talking about the bishop's lawm or lawn? That's similar to batiste. Lawm, cambric, voile, nainsook, organdy and batiste are all *generally* in the same category. Some apply more often to cottons, others to linens, sometimes both. The industry is quite fickle in that regard. I did find a useful set of definitions, though: http://www.ntgclarity.com/ICCFD/cotton.htm Batiste Fibre: Cotton, also rayon and wool. Weave: Plain Characteristics: Named after Jean Baptiste, a French linen weaver. Light weight, soft, semi-sheer fabric which resembles nainsook, but finer. It belongs to the lawn family; almost transparent. It is made of tightly twisted, combed yarns and mercerized finish. Sometimes it is printed or embroidered. In a heavier weight, it is used for foundation garments and linings in a plain, figured, striped, or flowered design. Considered similar to nainsook but finer and lighter in weight. Now usually made of 100% polyester distinguished by slubs in filling direction. Cambric Fibre: Cotton, also linen. Weave: Plain Characteristics: Soft, closely woven, light. Either bleached or piece dyed. Highly mercerized, lint free. Calendered on the right side with a slight gloss. Lower qualities have a smooth bright finish. Similar to batiste but is stiffer and fewer slubs. Launders very well. Has good body, sews and finishes well. Originally made in Cambria, France of linen and used for Church embroidery and table linens. Uses: Handkerchiefs, underwear, slips, nightgowns, children's dresses, aprons, shirts and blouses. Lawn Fibre: Cotton Weave: Plain Characteristics: Word derived from Laon, a city in France, where linen lawn was manufactured extensively. Light weight, sheer, soft, washable. It is crispier than voile but not as crisp as organdy. Made with fine high count yarns, silky feel. Made with either carded or combed yarns. Comes in white or may be dyed or printed. When made with combed yarns with a soft feel and slight lustre it is called nainsook. Uses: Underwear, dresses, blouses, night wear, curtains, lingerie, collars, cuffs, infant wear, shirtings, handkerchiefs. Nainsook Fibre: Cotton Weave: Plain Characteristics: Produced in the finishing processes from the same gray goods as used for batiste, cambric, lawn. Fine and lightweight. Soft and has a slight lustre in the better qualities (mercerization). Slightly heavier than batiste. Like lawn but not as crisp. Soft, lacks body. Usually found in white but also comes in pastel colours and some printed. Uses: tucked or embroidered, blouses, night wear, lingerie, and infant's wear. Organdy Fibre: Cotton. Weave: Plain. Some has lappet, swivel, or flocked designs. Characteristics: Made with tightly twisted yarns. Crispness is due to a finish with starch and calendaring which washes out, or a permanent crispness obtained with chemicals (Heberlein process). Wrinkles badly unless given a wrinkle-free finish (bellmanizing). May be bleached, dyed, printed, frosted, flocked, embroidered, or plisse. Uses: Fussy children's wear, trims, collars and cuffs, baby's wear, bonnets, artificial flowers, dolls clothes, millinery, summer formals, blouses, curtains, bedspreads, aprons. Voile Fibre: Cotton - also wool and called Voile de laine. Weave: Plain, loosely woven. Characteristics: Sheer and very light weight. Usually made with cylindrical combed yarns. To obtain a top quality fabric, very highly twisted yarns are used. Voile drapes and gathers very well. The clear surface is obtained by singeing away any fuzzy yarns. Has a hard finish and crisp, sometimes wiry hand. Voile de Laine is wool voile. Uses: Dresses, blouses, curtains. It was me whom checked out Julian's supplier in Jersey. It was indeed cotton, unfortunately. $25/yard doesn't sound too insane for good quality lightweight linen. I sell my period-width, better cambric for $14/yard (Czech origin), and the wider, very high quality for $36 (Belgian origin) Canadian dollars. As for the link you were looking for in the first place, I can't recall offhand where it could have been. Search the above terms and see what you wind up with. Typically, you'll find them at heirloom sewing shops, which tend to price gouge a little, if you ask me. Hope this helps. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lions head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art. -Leonardo da Vinci but there was further discussion and a name of the sheer linen (it was not called batiste)was said and a site that sold it for roughly $25 a yard was found. De -Original Message- The discussion I remember began when Julian Wilson (Hi,
[h-cost] Re: batiste weight linen
Hi De, That *might* be the cambric I found. It's at least as light as batiste, if not moreso. I can only get it wholesale and have to buy in bulk. In North America, I get it from Ulster Linen. I believe they also have a parent company somewhere in the UK. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lions head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art. -Leonardo da Vinci Once upon a time there was a discussion on batiste weight linen and a source was posted. I thought I saved the URL but I can't find it in my link files. Could someone with the link please post it and post (if you remember) the name of that type of linen as I know it isn't batiste. Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Out of my period again - 1914
MaggiRos, Personally, I envision this one in black chiffon with both jet and iridescent black beading, both tube and round beads. Go for a scrolling pattern for the beads, keep the really heavy stuff away from the edge of the hems to keep it moving softly. Only a thing line of them at the hem to frame it. Concentrate the sparkly bits between knee and thigh to get maximum light, as the black on black might be lost. Same with the bodice, put the most work into where the light will catch it - across the chest and centre front. Go utterly crazy on the girdle where it will take the weight. You might even find a patterned chiffon out there to get you started. Kathy OK, 20s, I can go with that. Colors? Fabric suggestions? Websites that don't require a subscription? I'm not committed to perfect accuracy but I'd like to be in the ballpark for whatever date the dress is trying to be, and make a pretty, wearable dress. MaggiRos Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lions head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art. -Leonardo da Vinci Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Florence in 2008?
*tries to remember how to breathe!* I wonder if they'll take my soul as payment to attend??? Thank you Robin! Kathy For the Italian costuming enthusiasts: http://www.costume-textiles.com/index.htm Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lions head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art. -Leonardo da Vinci Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Florence 2008
I called a friend of mine who happens to own a travel company, and explained to her the details. She will do some checking around for group rates, minimum of 10 travellers for accomodation and airfare and anything else we may need to know about. When she gets back to me, I'll let you know. She said because it's so far in advance, we are more likely to get ball park estimates for now, but its a starting point. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lions head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art. -Leonardo da Vinci Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Split drawer's expert?
Fran, If you can locate that reference somewhere, I'd love to have it. That further supports my theory about the Sicilian underwear. Eleonora's wardrobe accounts show underwear coming with her from Naples to Florence, but Italians disdained the, having the prostitute implication attached. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion#39;s head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art. -Leonardo da Vinci Somewhere I have information on the wardrobe of Juana the Mad (Katherine of Aragon's sister) . . . she wore drawers. Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Split drawer's expert?
Sunny, That would be me. I just presented at Kalamazoo on the topic of the Sicilian trousseau. I do know that the Met will be publishing a major-league documentation book on the same topic in the coming years, I guess they felt the need to make me the opening act, rather than the major attraction. *shrug* They'll cover way more than I ever could afford to do. Ask just about anything you want, and I'll do what I can to answer. :-) I have info on the Venetian camicia, the Sicilian trousseau, and the chopines in their collection. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion#39;s head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art. -Leonardo da Vinci A while ago, I thought someone from this list went to the Met in NY to look at extant 16th cent. Italian chemises and drawers, but I no longer remember _who_... Hope that helps, -sunny Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 6, Issue 240
There is a bit of a hair to split in these statements. Split is an important word here. The 16th century Sicilian underwear are not split in the 19th century sense. They are fully attached at the crotch seam, not separate tubes attached at the waist. The Met collection has been identified microscopically as most likely linen; a bast fibre. So far, Sicily seems to be more the anomaly in European cultures, underwear on women being more acceptable amongst the proper females, as opposed to the prostitutes. In Italy, underwear were used for horseback riding, I would hazard other cultures are similar - the notion of sticking to a leather seat seems pretty universally unattractive. The Pepys quote also mentions that he disdained her using underwear, because to him it was a sign of unfaithfulness. The other text quote by Fynes Morison is often taken out of context, the full quote actually explains who he is talking to - courtesans, during Festival season. Gender bending was a common costume during that season. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 From: Lynn Roth [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] Split drawer's expert? To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I'm neew to this list and have enjoyed learning a lot of different things. I do recreating the 1500's. I didn't realize that they had split drawers in the 16th cen. Do you have any historical evidence that they had them in the nobility class in the midto late 1500's, and what they were made of? I would appreciate any information. Lynn Sue Clemenger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dunno about the 18th century, but there are rare surviving examples of them from the 16th century. I suspect that it was something that came and went, as a style. Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Perpginan cloth
Wel. yeah. although I have found a vanishingly small collection of wool jersey cloth out there, mostly vintage or British in origin, that *almost* looks like it could be woven. Very fine, mind, but that also lends itself to the difficulty of establishing its structure. The term jersey, according to the OEM, lists it to 1583, referring to knitted cloth. So, I suspect her terminology could be an issue. Knitting in this context really wasn't that popular as far back as the reference she makes - IIRC, the 1100's or so. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 I thought jersey was by definition a knit or looped fabric? I could see developing a strechy fabric using over twisted wool or some other technique, but I think if it's woven, it's not jersey. Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Perpignan cloth
Hi Beth, A... you've just saved me a bunch of headaches and time consumption. I am stronger in French than I am in Italian! So the reference only occurs in text outside of direct cloth manufacture, hmm. That's annoying. Gar. This French book only shows up in a couple of libraries around here, all of which charge for the ILL. hmm.. unless I convince a local to U of T to snag it for me and make a copy. My husband is fully bilingual, I can bribe him to at least look up the indexes for me and see if the references are any good. Darn! And I was hoping to solve my issues with something easy! Gee... I wonder if contacting a museum in Perpignan might prove fruitful? I wonder if they have something like that. *goes googling* Aha. I think I may have something. The village indeed does have museums (these are the divisions most likely to have information useful to us): Musée des Beaux-Arts Hyacinthe Rigaud 16, rue de l'Ange 66000 PERPIGNAN Tél : 04 68 35 81 23 Mél : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Peinture Musée du Castillet Casa Pairal Place de Verdun 66000 PERPIGNAN Tél : 04 68 35 42 05 Arts et traditions populaires Musée archéologique de Ruscino (en cours de création) Centre Archéologique de Ruscino Château Roussillon 66000 PERPIGNAN Tél : 04 68 67 47 17 Site archéologique I'll have to wait until hub is awake and in a mood to be coerced into helping me to brew up a contact email. We can hope they know what we are talking about, or at least something that helps clear up just what this stuff really is. Onto a new adventure... Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 snip that Frick references regarding this but, while useful, it's focus is on trade and economics and I could find no hint of the weave structure. I also attempted to contact Dr. Frick (she teaches at a University in Oklahoma.. the next state over) as to why she used the term jersey to describe it but never received a reply. The only other book that I have that mentions (in a textile context) Perpignan is Cardon, Dominique. La draperie au Moyen Age: essor d'une grande industrie europe enne. Paris: CNRS Ed, 1999. ISBN: 227105592X OCLC: 50663845 As I am seriously weak in French, this is proving very slow going for me. Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Perpignan cloth
I have just been flipping through Dressing Renaissance Florence, and they mention hosiery itself was made of perpignan cloth (perpignano), a washable and stretchy woolen jersey fabric, originally developed by weavers in Perpignan, France. Has anyone ever heard of this stuff before, and if so, what is its' weave structure? What would it be close to in modern terms? This answers a lot of questions why Italian men's hose are so smooth and tight looking. If I can find a reasonable equivalent, it will make my job MUCH easier on this commission that I have been stalled on for so long. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] K'zoo catch up
I'll blame this on post-session geekery. ;-) Give us free time, wireless internet access, chocolate and alcohol and what happens? Images exchanges. No, no... not *those* kinds of images! ;-) Completely different variety of porn It's nice to know my memory wasn't completely befuddled and that I could indeed re-find some images I said I had. I don't have the email address for the one specifically asking for these images, however I thought I'll post it here, chances are reay good you A) know who you are and B) are on this list in the first place, so why not share the bounty with everyone else at the same time? The following site is a French images agency site, to which I found the 16th c. Venetian coat with front, back and fabric detail. http://www.photo.rmn.fr/c/htm/Search_New.aspx To find the coat specifically, put in 16th century under period then silk under Technic/Material, hit search. his will bring up a specifics prompt that asks you to choose one from the list. Choose textile and hit search again. The very first image is the coat, after that, you are rewarded with 50+ pages of images that all share 16thc. silk textile keywords. Be prepared for a whackload of tapestry images, but sift through them for other gems hiding between. After you're finished with those pages, wander around a little more. Guaranteed to find tonnes of nifty things. :-) Great time consumer and drool producer. Kathy It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 Get news delivered with the All new Yahoo! Mail. Enjoy RSS feeds right on your Mail page. Start today at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Medieval Embroidery
I can kinda-sorta help you out with this one. One of the shirts in the Sicilian Bride collection at the Met is completely reversible, done not only in polychrome silks, but gold thread as well. Both cuffs and collars are coated in it in good 2 inch bands. These date to ca. 1500-1600 Sicily. They employ several stitch types, none of which are Assisi or Blackwork in nature. Satin stitch is most predominant in the motifs. As for publishingwait a year or so and see who ends up published first -me or the Met. ;-) I understand that insisting on completely reversible, uber-tidy embroidery backs is far more a Victorian convention than Medieval. I've heard this statement debated hotly both ways. The Met collection is by no means nasty looking on the back, but you can spot the knots if you look for them. Kathy It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 So, questions: 1. Is my memory correct -- is this indeed a characteristic of blackwork? Or any other kind of historic embroidery style? 2. Is this characteristic actually documentable to any non-modern examples? (I know it's easy to assume that a standard definition of a technique must date back forever, but it might be done differently in different periods.) If so, how early? I mentally associate blackwork in particular with the Tudor period, but the reference in this case is about 1400. 3. Can anyone point me to a published source that would document the use of such a two right sides technique to a medieval artifact? Ultimately my friend would like to have a citation that shows the use of such inside/outside embroidery from around 1400. Doesn't have to be blackwork. Failing that, it would be helpful to have a citation of such a technique from a later period, even if it's not c. 1400. Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] RE: Embroidery Question
I recently cobbled together something in a pinch that worked. I was appliqueing an embroidery onto silk velvet, and because of the shape of the garment and the position of the applique, it had to be framed in order to be managed. I wasn't at home so didn't have access to my supply of stretcher frames (what I have always called a slate frame, which was a new term to me) So I went out to the local WalMart and bought a really cheap wooden picture frame and a box of large head thumb tacks. I wiggled the tacks through the weave (I found out the hard way this particular fabric liked to pull if not treated nicely) and tacked the garment into place on the frame just barely hard enough to work on, making sure the tack didn't press into the pile too much, pinned down the applique, worked then removed it from the frame after I was finished. Yes, I had a few pinholes, but they are fading now that I am working on something else on the garment and the fibres are slipping back into place. Not optimal, but it accomplished the goal. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Childrens costumes
It's called Canadian smocking. http://www.savvyseams.com/techniques/canadian.php It goes by other names as well, as this page will tell you. It is incredibly consumptive but its well worth it. It took me a good couple of hours to grasp how it's done; I am left handed and have to mentally invert instructions like this. I only wish that I could document its use to the 16th c. Best as I can figure its exclusively 19th or better. I've seen it used in several Elizabethan-era movies lately, though. That sounds like a knitting technique, Bjarne? Or did she manipulate it liek this after making the flat knitting up? Once you have the rhythm of this stitch, it goes very quickly. It becomes addictive and one starts to want smocking up everything just to put the new toy to use. :-) Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 I love the sleeves. How did you do that? Sharon Thanks for posting Kathy. She is very sweat in her fine costume. I remembered one of my studyers, who went to the design school same time as me, she made a knitted jacket, in machine knit, where she also plaited the long sleaves like you did with the puffed sleaves. It looked so elegant. Took her hours to make, as i remember. Bjarne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 6, Issue 160
My daughter does as authentic as I can convince her to. :-) I even make her jewellry to make sure it all looks right. (except for the tiara in this photo set, she thought she should have a proper tiara befitting a princess. :-) ) Just because it's fun to think Bjarne might get all weak at the knees over the stuff I make just because it's on my little one *grin*, here's my little girl's Christmas concert dress this past winter, based roughly on Bia De Medici and some Disney Princess thrown in to make her giddy. :-) There are proper sleeves to tie onto the puffs, but they were just a little long at the time and were annoying her, so we took them off. http://picasaweb.google.com/49victor/2006ChristmasConcert She has a pretty convincing little Norse kit as well that she likes because she can grub out in it - its all wool and linen so it washes without trouble. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 There is nothing like a child in period costume. I get weak in my knees, every time i see it. And if i had children, they would have loads of costumes i had made for them. Bjarne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Last chance
It seems that one of the publications I am wanting is determined to elude me. All North American options are pretty much exhausted at this point, I am needing someone sympathetic local to one of the libraries that holds this particular catalogue. It seems to be exclusively Italian, it lists no where else. I am needing: Labito della Granduchessa. Vesti di corte e di madonne nel Palazzo Reale di Pisa, catalogo della mostra (Pisa, Museo Nazionale di Palazzo Reale, dal 28 giugno 2000) a cura di M. Burresi, Museo Nazionale di Palazzo Reale, Pisa 2000 Moira Brunori and Mary Rizza in 2000, completed in 2004 with the consultancy of Thessy Schoenholzer Nichols. It has been located at the following libraries so far: Biblioteca nazionale centrale -Firenze Biblioteca comunale Labronica Francesco Domenico Guerrazzi. Sezione dei Bottini dell'olio - Livorno Biblioteca statale - Lucca Biblioteca di storia dell'arte Bruno Molajoli - Napoli Biblioteca universitaria - Pisa Biblioteca di archeologia e storia dell'arte - Roma Biblioteca dell'Ufficio centrale per i beni ambientali, architettonici,archeologici, artistici e storici - Roma Biblioteca della Soprint. per i beni architettonici e il paesaggio, il patrimonio storico, artistico e demoetnoantropologico per le provincie di SS e NU - Sassari Biblioteca della Soprintendenza per i beni artistici e storici del Piemonte -SBAS - Torino Any assistance obtaining this catalogue, or willingness to copy parts thereof, are deeply appreciated. This is my last kick at the cat before I give up. Thanks for any help you can provide. I have a copy of MAZZI Curzio, La camicia: ricerche dantico costume italiano, Firenze, Olschki, 1915, ill now, if anyone wants a copy, email me offlist. It's written in Italian, however I am working on getting it translated. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Spanish underwear
Mine are photographed in: Textiles Revealed Object lessons in historic textile and costume research Edited by Mary M. Brooks How to Read Historic Textiles by Katia Johansen. Figure 6a Hose of yellow Chinese silk damask with a white pattern of swimming ducks; this fabric is the same as the undersleeves of the pink coat (31.a.3). Reproduced by permission of the Royal Danish Collections, Rosenborg Castle. ...The waist has lost its gathering cord so the original waist width is not known. The feet are sewn onto the hose. The cut of the hose is similar to prehistoric Danish archaeological finds (31.L1.d) (figs a.b). There is a photograph of them in toto, and a pattern of their construction. These are listed as the Polish costume of King Fredrik III, inventoried in his wardrobe 1651. There is no mention in the inventory how he used or acquired them, as they are significantly different from the rest of his wardrobe. This collection has rarely been put on display and kept in the dark, so are in a remarkable state of preservation. (paraphrased by me) Same, but different, methinks. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 I don't know that those are the same pair as the ones in Textile Conservation--do you have a link or a reference for them? Thanks! Melanie __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Spanish underwear
Melanie and Suzi, Thanks for those references! I knew I wasn't nuts. It even recalled where I had seen pieced-calf stockings before - I think we are talking about the same pair, yellow Chinese damask silk hose, but mine are listed as being Royal Danish Collections, Rosenborg Castle. It's the Met stockings I am comparing to - I have plenty on those. ;-) I had hit a mental block recently, and just couldn't recall where exactly I had seen pieced-calf stockings, just knew that I had. The only one I could come up with was Bocksten hose, but they are not contemporary enough to really be a fair comparison. My biggest sticking point is to make certain the cut was on both stockings, not just one. I'm trying to prove it was intentionally made this way, not salvaged from a sleeve from a previous garment. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the logistics of that. Thankyouthankyouthankyou! Now, off to find support on the collar weirdness of these shirts Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Spanish underwear
Hi everyone, I'm looking for pictures of Spanish underwear - particularly chemise necklines and stockings, mid to late 1500's. Extant garments would be a big bonus! I am also looking for surviving stockings or other leg coverings, same period, male or female, I don't care where they are from, particularly those that have been pieced at the legs. (i.e. selvedge edges butted together that run on the bias) Spain isn't quite my area of expertise, so I am a little lost as to where to begin finding images. Thanks! Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Norse poufy pants
AH! That's the one! The exact one he pointed me to. I knew I had seen a pattern at some point, I just couldn't dig it out of the site. Thanks to everyone! Kathy There's a pattern and info at the Swedish Historiska världar website: http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/eng/drakter/vherre/vherrefr.htm http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/drakter/monster/dvmpasbyxor.pdf You'll probably figure out what goes where from the drawings. The stuff that is hard to figure out if you can't read the language; Your waistbands lenght should be the same as your waistmeasurements. The width of each pantleg is 3,20m between C and B. Cut 2. Pleat where you see a dotted line between C and B. Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Florentine Men's wear, c. 1475
I'm picking back up with this project in a big way, and in my Sunday meanderings through my art references, something has come to mind. I am cross posting this, so some of you might get it twice. It wouldn't be original to suggest that men's hose were footless, it's how they were worn that seems to jump out at me. I could never quite figure out how they had them s skin tight. Yes, wool stretches where it needs to (but it doesn't return, which makes this a real conundrum), but there is a point that even that won't work - the ankle fitting was my biggest concern. I am sure to say they didn't make hose out of wool exclusively, either. So I started looking to see what I could find... I found several that had lacing up the back of the calf, a closure at the ankle, and of course the stirrup reaching under the instep. This suggests to me how linen or silk hose were treated, being less elastic than wool. Flip through images on this site, it's loaded with various detail images: http://www.scrimatorino.it/images/iconxv.html These pics in particular: http://www.scrimatorino.it/images/icon/xv/xv-13.jpg Lacing up the back of the calf, lower left, man in red hose. Look between the lacing, the colour of his skin doesn't show through - it's white. http://www.scrimatorino.it/images/icon/xv/xv-43.jpg two again, man on lower left. There is clearly two distinct colours going on, and I am pretty sure that isn't armour. Same thing here. Second man from right, foreground. Look at the opening in his boot, there is a distinct line: http://jessamynscloset.com/images/more%20art/vic%5C This guy, you can't miss he is wearing socks over his hose. Piper on right: http://jessamynscloset.com/images/postspainimages/Reyeshombres/rhIV.jpg The man in yellow has his hose split *up from* the foot and tucked away, rather than rolled down, as we are used to seeing it. http://jessamynscloset.com/images/postspainimages/Pinturas%20sobre/PS138.jpg These guys here are showing more realistic sag and bag at the joints that I would expect: http://jessamynscloset.com/images/postspainimages/Nobleza2/no18.jpg Also at the high ankle on the man at left, I would swear there was a ridge where the hem of a sock would be *under* his hose. This guy has a button closure at the inner ankle: http://jessamynscloset.com/images/postspainimages/Nobleza2/no147.jpg I also have a photo of an extant man's hose, although I can't for the life of me relocate where I got it from. All I know is that it's contemporary to this project, based on where I filed it. The cut doesn't seem too surprising until one looks to the hip to waist, then all the measurements seem really off - far too low of a seat rise to meet the waist, assuming the wearer was at least reasonably proportionate. Oddly too, these are not likely wool - it's a broad striped brocade cut on the straight of grain. Another thing I am trying to deal with is getting the seat tight enough to look the way they should, yet give him something to sit down with. Luckily the man in question isn't overly endowed in the caboose department, but still, my first efforts to have it cover over the back of the hip to the point of almost meeting at the waist, yet have him the space to sit it, succeeded in immediately tearing away from their points at the farsetto waist. Interestingly, this guy is wearing the back of his hose about the same way my client would have to, man on right in red: http://jessamynscloset.com/images/more%20art/1406Cabrera I guess in my mental meanderings, I am wondering if anyone has tried employing these adjustment techniques, actually uses the footless hose and sock combination, and has found a way to accomplish covering someones' butt yet they had the space to sit in, without the use of endless fish inserts to force roundness into the back of the hose. I can't justify using fish, there is not one image out there that places a seam of any kind over the fullest part of the hip. Any ideas? Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Norse poufy pants
I have someone wanting a pair of those Birka poufy pants. Does anyone have a general assembly, pattern sort of thing out there that I might use? I swear someone out there had a fairly definitive how to, but I can no longer locate it. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Christmas Gift Exchange
Ha! Finally! my gift arrived! Apparently the description on the declaration wasn't convincing enough customs felt the need to open the package, so it was hung up at Canada Border Services Agency this whole time. Kelly Dorman sent me a beaded hat pin - it's just lovely! I had started my costuming days in the Victorian and Edwardian era, so I have a wonderful HUGE Victorian picture hat this will be perfect with! It's just the right colours for it too! Just in time to be photographed with my entire collection end of this week. I'm finally getting around to making a real portfolio. Very worth the wait. :-D Thank you! Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: question re: floss silks for embroidery
Arlys, I can happily confirm they go back *at least* as far as the sixteenth century in Sicily, having had first hand experience with stranded floss silks in use. They sewed garments and made lace with them, in my experience. I can even help you find some to experiment with. ;-) The store exists, but is not ready yet for orders. email me off list if you are interested. Kathy Page ~New Stranded Floss Embroidery Silk Enabler~ www.outoftheattic.biz/store Might even delve into spiffy cambric linens, as well one day soon... Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 Hi all. I'm researching embroidery materials and keep bumping into references that mention floss silks. Might anyone know how early these were used and/or have some possible sources they could point me to? __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 5, Issue 762
I'm sorry for pointing this out, but it tickled my funny bone. Some transvestites really are a fashion travesty :-D Kathy One of the mistakes a lot of travesties make is that they use to much makeup. And colors that are too hard. Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Janet Arnold
If you're talking about the shirts book, I kind of do. It's still hung up in legal issues - estate, copyright, permissions... the typical yadda yadda for publishing a book of this nature. It happens that my research crosses over hers, a couple of the shirts in the Met collection are included in this book. But because hers is far more diverse, the chances of my publishing first are greater than her estate beating me to it. I am to understand her estate has enough material to publish 4 more books. It's just a matter of sifting through it all and assembling it appropriately. Kathy Hi, Does any of you know any news about the last Arnold Book wich was supposed to be published? I am awaiting it impatiently Bjarne Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] kammerdug/linnen
Hi Kimiko and Bjarne, I am very familiar with this linen, I am betting my boots this is the same supplier I use. 2.8 oz is about as fine as you are going to get it. I have bolts of both the Czech linen (which is what this Draper is selling) and the Belgian, which is much wider but also *much* finer quality. This largely competes with the Italian, but better priced. (Belgian is running at about $36.00 CAD cost, Italian is about $100.00 per yard at COST- eek!) Kammerdug, I understand translates to lawm or lawn, which I believe is a shade heavier than cambric. The yardage that Kimiko showed is lighter yet than Kammerdug. Doing a little looking around, lawm tends to be placed into a similar category as organdy. You will find Batiste and voile in this family of weaves as well. Between the two (Czech and Belgian) Czech is good, but as you mentioned, crisper. By comparison, the flaws are a little more noticable as well. There is some slubbiness to it. The Belgian doesn't have a slub larger than a pin head in the entire yardage. The Belgian is also qualified as museum quality and restoration shops use it for their work. (I found this out because my first order from the supplier was erroneously redirected to one of them!) Something else I have found out in my pursuit of the perfect linen: the price. YIKES! It's shot up! I was told the reason for this was because the flax seed and oil industry is more lucrative than the linen textile, and because they cannot harvest both the stalk and the seed and reap the income from both, many farmers have opted to follow their pocket books and not let the stalks mature into useable plants for the textile industry. This of course creates a supply and demand problem, quickly filtering down to the end user. I can get this linen for you, I have a wholesale account. I just need to gather orders because I just can't keep this stuff in stock and they require a minimum purchase. But, if you want to keep some in stock for yourself, this is definitely the way to go. I may in time start stocking it, but I have to get some income rolling in another easier to sell department - I have a wholesale account for Eterna Silks as well. I will be selling their stranded silk flosses, other lines as the demand sees fit. Kathy snip We are searching for that elusive fine linen. However, there is at least one site I know of a draper who sells fine 2.8 oz (~ 79.38 grams) linen. http://wmboothdraper.com/Linen/linens_index.htm 100% white handkerchief linen, 2.8 oz., 35” wide, $14.50/yd. snip I contakted the danish handicraft guild to enquire to their kammerdug (very fine handkerchief linnen) and was quite surprised to hear from them that this no longer is made. I had baught from them about 10 years ago when i made a christening gown with bobbin lace. And i wanted more for a gentlemans shirt. snip Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 - Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: h-costume@mail.indra.com Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 6:59:10 AM Subject: h-costume Digest, Vol 5, Issue 744 Send h-costume mailing list submissions to h-costume@mail.indra.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can reach the person managing the list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of h-costume digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: kyoto stays again ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 2. WildThang2005 has invited you to FREE 3D avatar chat onIMVU (WildThang2005) 3. Re: Holbein exhibit (Dawn) 4. Re: a question about museums (Bjarne og Leif Drews) 5. kammerdug/linnen (Bjarne og Leif Drews) 6. RE: a question about museums (Wanda Pease) 7. Re: Holbein exhibit (Suzi Clarke) 8. RE: Holbein exhibit (Anne Moeller) 9. Re: kammerdug/linnen (Kimiko Small) 10. Re: kammerdug/linnen (Sue Clemenger) 11. RE: Holbein exhibit/London shows (Suzi Clarke) 12. Re: kammerdug/linnen (Tania Gruning) -- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:56:55 EST From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] kyoto stays again To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII In a message dated 11/25/2006 8:43:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: First off, yup, I agree with you, they are a bit too big around the bust. I think you could take them in along the
[h-cost] Stranded Silk Floss
I am trying to sort out what colours to stock most of when I finally start ordering in floss stock from Eterna Silks - I plan on selling their line of stranded silk, and as demand sees fit, others in time. I thought originally to find a bunch of embroidery books and use them as my references (I plan on making up floss packs that one can buy a range of colours for a group price) but realised that if I compared to extant, I will be getting today's colours, which could be faded or otherwise altered by time. If people are wanting these flosses for reproduction work, they want it to look how it did when it was new. Does anyone out there have a decent book or two I can use as reference for colouring relative to historical dying of silk? I'd like to for example, have a pack for Norse, Tudor, Elizabethan, Byzantine, Heraldic, etc that covers the general colour tones one would expect to find in such periods and cultures. I have 575 colours to choose from, and as much as I would like to buy one of everything and just go to town, it's not a practical approach to efficient stocking. I'm hoping to get some stock in and at least try to get a bit of Christmas rush covered, but this issue is kind of hanging me up. On the topic of Kammerdug (which I did a little searching and it translates to lawn), I can get linen as fine as that here in North America, and if anyone wants it, I'll gather an order. The merchant that Kimiko mentioned I am betting is buying from the same company as I do, however theirs is the narrower Czech - nothing wrong with it, just a middle-high end grade. I have bolts of both and can compare. I have been getting the museum quality Belgian cambric from them, and it is so fine and lovely that angels fear to touch it. It's pricey, but oh-so-worth it. I can't afford to stock this item, I just act as the clearing house for gathered orders. They require a minimum purchase. Thanks Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: Re: [h-cost] Blue on Judith
What started this train of thought for me was this: http://www.tekhelet.com/brochure.htm . I didn't realise the importance of blue to the Hebrews or if there was any significance to women. I did a search on biblical Judith and found a quote from the Book of Judith that said she cast off her blue widow's veil and left the city, her beauty was a surprise to the elders Judith is considered a heroine but the whole story is by most thought to be fictional by many. Judith is important in that she represents the people overcoming their invaders. When I did a cursory search for Judith paintings, there was an overwhelming number of them that in some way, she was wearing a distinct blue or shades of it, even if just a fold or stripe in a layer. Italians subscribed to the yellow-is-Jewish thing as well, she wore nothing on her head - likely relevant to the story of her casting off her veil. She doesn't for the most part look any different than any other Italian woman, it seemed the bulk of the non-Italian, 16th c. paintings didn't use this blue indicator however - Cranach being the most noticable in this group. I really don't know how to interpret this one. It would be a fascinating research... just one I don't have the time to sink my teeth into at the moment. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 Wow! This stirred up a really vague memory of an article I read, probably 15 years ago about a special blue dye--if memory serves, it came from the Mediterranean, and was, similar to Tyrian purple, a shell-fish based vat dye. And it was used by the Hebrews and, again if I'm remembering right, had a ritual significance. If it's shellfish-based, it would be unlikely to be used by the Hebrews, at least not post-Sinai, as it would be considered unclean per the kosher law in Leviticus. snipSo, depending on where and when the art was produced, you might see pointed hats, or yellow badges, or stripes, or other devices to designate Jewish characters -- snipIn medieval Christian art, ultramarine blue has long been associated with the Virgin -- usually in her mantle or robe -- because it was the most expensive available pigment. snip but I don't know if that was a Jewish thing in particular or just an important person designator. You are probably thinking about the single thread of blue included in snip I'm not aware of any special significance of blue in regards to women. It's probably something from the Christian symbolism snip ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Blue on Judith
On another list I am on, a topic coming up regarding the relevance the colour blue is to Jewish women came up, relative to the Book of Judith and all the spin off paintings it has created particularly in Italian ren paintings. While bantering the topic, I came to find that a certain shade of blue is important to the Jewish culture. I thought that the use of blue on the Judith figures in the paintings marked her visually as a Jewess. Someone suggested that it was not relevant in that regard but connected it to the blue veil of the Virgin - that didn't ring right for me, since Judith is a widow. Rootling a little more, I found that she wore a blue widow's veil - I didn't know that a widow's veil was blue in any culture I just assumed they were always black, so this was news to me. So, is this representation of blue because she is a Jewess, or because she is a widow? And, because of the connection of blue, has anyone noticed that blue is not a well represented colour amongst the Christian nobility? It occurs on occasion in Italian art, according to my memory, I haven't yet done a serious survey to make any real conclusions. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] RE: Pattern clearance
You timing is spot on, Lorina. Sad but true. I started to get rid of my patterns and laces as well at a loss on Ebay. I get, if I am lucky one bid on the patterns and when the last of the laces sold, I had someone email me and give me righteous sh*t for charging shipping out high - which was a genuine error on the Post Offices' part, and I didn't catch it. I go to the trouble of making sure exact shipping is charged out. She railed at me for gouging the shipping to make extra income - heh, I wish. That lace went out at less than half of wholesale. Making *profit* wasn't an option. And I still refunded her the overage on the shipping. My 100% cotton imported French and Swiss lace sold at what that crap poly/nylon stuff sells at retail, if that in some cases. I tried selling a few Vic underpinnings and got no bites at all, even at less than half of their value. I was looking up other period costumes and someone is selling ladies ACW day and ball gowns for $325, all included. That wouldn't even cover the materials for mos! t of those dresses, let alone the labour! I'd love to know how they're doing it. Sure volume, yeah, but jeez! That's a lot of sweat for little pay, much less they must be stealing the fabric! And my husband thought *I* was on cheap crack... Off to work on my newest theoretical bodice - The Galizia Judith painting. I create because the Fabric Gods tell me so. Listening to the little voices in my head, Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 There are days in the past two weeks I think I've made a horrible mistake. And then I look at the reports, lack of growth, loss of sales to my suppliers and the Big Three, and I know I've decided to bow out while there's yet grace. You do what you gotta do. I've seen the market for costume clothing change in the last couple of years too. Beats me how some of the people who sell on ebay are making any kind of money with the prices they charge. Unless they are getting fabric for free. ___ All New Yahoo! Mail – Tired of [EMAIL PROTECTED]@! come-ons? Let our SpamGuard protect you. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Hourly Wages
I was having yet another *coughcough* discussion with my husband on what the typical hourly wages independant costumers make - what they charge out at for high end work - full suites of clothing, custom designed, in part or fully assembled by machine, complete with embellishments. He seems to think I am on cheap crack, however I have looked into it through employment statistics in my province and country, and have kept a quiet eye on the discussions in the past here and I believe that I am on track for a 5 year plan of establishing my reputation and credibility. He is a frustrating insta-boing type, thinking I should be able to name whatever I please with no justification behind the price tag. Could I run a survey on what those interested and willing to offer cannon fodder on this discussion charge out for work roughly described above, and the currency it is typically quoted at, so I can compare apples to apples? If it seems like a private subject, please feel free to reply offlist. Thanks for anyone willing to save my sanity, Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert(Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Useful Resource
When the itinerant textile/costume research folks are back from Pennsic, some might find this pdf useful: URL: http://www.textilemuseum.org/PDFs/Worldwidetextilecollections.pdf Description: The International Directory of Textile Collections has been compiled by members of staff and volunteers at the Arthur D. Jenkins Library at the Textile Museum in Washington, D.C. Compiled from the Library's resources, the directory lists museums specializing in textiles, costumes, or rugs or museums listing them among their collections. Locations are listed in alphabetical order. Adobe Reader is required in order to view the document. Kathy/Cait. Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert(Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 5, Issue 577
I can give you an extant source where the linen thread DID survive - The Bocksten bog man. I have an in situ photograph of it, which is the only state it survived in. It disintegrated the moment they moved the textile. Wool sewing thread, if used in wool garments would likely full into place like The extant Irish Moy gown shows. I don't recall hearing of wool being sewn with silk though - I could likely be wrong, though. I would suspect that silk would cut the wool with the movement of the wearer. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert(Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 It seems that in a lot of extant garments, the protein fibers (wool and silk) have survived, while the plant fibers have not. We can only speculate that linen thread was used because there are stitching holes and no thread (and it seems unlikely that they would have pulled the silk or wool sewing thread out before tossing the rest in the trash). I was hoping you might be able to help me find some sort of documentation that I can use as a reference that explains how this works? It doesn't have to be overly technical. I've seen this mentioned in a number of places but don't have a cite offhand. If I were to look for one, it would be in the Museum of London's Textiles and Dress book. Another possibility is Else Ostergard's Woven Into the Earth, which mentions the paucity of linen survivals in Greenland; whether it discusses thread, I'm not sure. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Patterns on Ebay
I have finally gotten around to listing my patterns. I have everything except my Past Patterns collections up, which those will go up later this evening. My seller ID is insaneseamstress: http://search.ebay.ca/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQsassZinsaneseamstress Hope that link works. I have listed everything with a starting price below current market values - or at least the ones I could find. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert(Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] RE: OT-Architecture (otsisto)
I have the book which contains that translation. That's the problem, I want to see it in Italian, preferably the actual plaque. I have a bent sense of humour, and want to work it into a design element of a trompe l'oeil project I am working on. Kathy 2. RE: OT-Architecture (otsisto) No but from a person that seems to have seen it, it says Hope and love keep us in this pleasant prison -Original Message- Does anyone have a close up of the Santa Maria delle Vergini arch found in Virgins of Venice, now attached to the Arsenal? I've tried googling all of the above and can't find a large enough copy. I would like to take a close look at the inscription plaque. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] OT-Architecture
Does anyone have a close up of the Santa Maria delle Vergini arch found in Virgins of Venice, now attached to the Arsenal? I've tried googling all of the above and can't find a large enough copy. I would like to take a close look at the inscription plaque. Thanks! Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert(Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: OT: LJ/ blogspot/Yahoo360 etc.
I'll chime in with a wooden nickel or two, for what it's worth. I've never gotten into that document every stitch diary thing. I am too busy thinking about the work I am doing, where it needs to go and how to get there to worry about where my camera is or accessing some convoluted file system (my husband set up my system, and thus is a reflection of his odd, uncommunicative mind... not very user friendly.) to tell everyone how my day's work went. I have people asking me to do it, but I am just not wired for it. I never kept up with a diary as a kid, I am lousy at sending letters - I have the attention span of a gnat even for email, for that matter. Occasionally I'll take a pic or two if it's something really bizarre or way left of the accepted centre. I would rather show someone in person, talk face to face and interact directly. That is when I really start flooding with ideas and information. My network is also to blame for my lack of readily available photographs; my camera software is in my husbands computer which is an Apple, thus I haven't the foggiest how things work. Asking him is like pulling hen's teeth so, I find myself very efficient in my photography. Have I found other's LJ and blogs useful and interesting? Occasionally. Do I tend to find a plethora of information I don't care about/need to know? Yes. I am with Dawn on this one, I keep my stuff on my website (which I can't even keep up to that - I have *years* of stuff that has to be put on there) which having to do all that technical schtuff to get it looking right and operating efficiently, one finds good reason to not post every last iota of thought onto it. All this quite ironic coming from a person who has a difficult time *not* talking for extended periods of time. ;-) Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert(Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Heirloom stuff
All that lace I had mentioned I had a while back has finally made it onto E Bay, along with some other stuff. If you're interested, look up my ID insaneseamstress. I'll be pitching some other stuff up there soon as well. I have a whackload of Victorian patterns - all are intact, I traced off rather than cut. Some may have notations on them in pencil - anyone interested in what I have? I can inventory and photograph for those interested. Otherwise I'll toss em on EBay as well. Some of my finished vic goods will be going this week too. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert(Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Heirloom stuff
Oh if they were the originals, I wouldn't part with them. :-) They are modern patterns. NOT big 3 patt's - the kind that Five Rivers sells. :-) Kathy Kathy Page wrote: I have a whackload of Victorian patterns Are these patterns that were produced in the Victorian era or modern patterns of Victorian styles? Thanks, Melanie Schuessler -- ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume End of h-costume Digest, Vol 5, Issue 476 * ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Heirloom stuff
To make it simpler for everyone, I just piled a quick inventory onto my website: http://outoftheattic.homeip.net/Patterns%20for%20Sale.html If you are eager or in a hurry let me know. This week is kinda full to try and get a pic of each and every one but I can do some of them. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert(Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: New Portrait of Eleonora of Toledo
Actually, that painting is nearly dead-on to about 5 paintings attributed to several artists. A few months back I was digging into the source of an lithograph I had found in Levi-Piesetsky (sp? I'm lazy today). I was trying to find out who this Bahuet guy was, and we came to the general conclusion that she made an error in the translations to his name or something like that, that it was likely based on something else. I had said the same thing, that the dates given didn't match that of Eleanora. Some of the other paintings that came up relative said they were ladies of her court, not Herself. The others that look like this one are dated in the 1540-1560's range. I have the fabric and trimmings, even the gold couching pattern ready just a matter of getting to making the thing so many projects, so little time. Especially when I have one that has me painted into a corner like that Florentine hose I am knawing on no one has any ideas on how to do this? Anyone? Bueller? Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert(Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 I heard about this miniature on the BBC radio news this evening:- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/5037002.stm If you click to enlarge the image, you'll also see more of the painting. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re:Hancock's closing
Mia, There is a reason for the sharp jump in price. I am right now making up a wholesale order for super spiffy linen from Ulster Linen in NY. Apparently, the Czech Republic, where most of the mid-lower grade linens were being made, more or less are getting out of that business. This leaves the higher end, higher prices linen producers in Ireland, Belgium and Italy to bear the market. and since they have the lions' share, they can drive the price up to whatever they want, and frustratingly, get it. I am unsure about the Indian market right now, or their quality. It's possible that is where the purchasers for the major chains are getting their goods from. However I was caught in the so-called 100% linen rook not long ago. I went to Toronto to buy linen, and found it for 6.50/m, they listed it as 100% linen. It wasn't. I got it home and while using it in my project, couldn't figure out why is was behaving strangely. I came to realise it had 3% lycra in it. They just can't leave the damned stuff alone; they have to put modern convenience crap in everything. That's why I am resorting to buying wholesale - not that it saves me a great deal, but I am getting the top end stuff wholesale for what some people are paying for mid grade stuff retail- and I *know* this stuff is pure. It had better be for the price I am paying for it. Almost no one is stocking high end linens right now because it's just too pricey to sit on that stock. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert(Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 Costume content...and further ranting Has anybody else this side of the pond had a conniption over the price of linnen? I went to buy a bit to make an 18c cent shirt. and WOW, it was about 4-5 US dollars more than the last bit I bout last year!! now the quality available was really nice and I want tot buy some for some caps, but it was a bit too fine for a common soldiers shirt. I guess I have to break down and buy a bolt. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Trapunto was: linnen embroidered stomacher
I'm already half a step ahead. I had decided to make a baby quilt for a friend and was looking into trapunto. There are several extant examples of it, the VA quilt is linen with brown and white linen thread, stuffed with cotton. Museum Number 1391-1904, referred to as The Tristan Quilt. This one is Sicilian circa 1400. There are a couple other Italian quilts apparently, and some from Henry VIII. Some have been silk top with linen bases, variously coloured threads. I caught a glimpse of one that was polychrome embroidered first, then quilted. I wish I could get my hands on that image... I don't know where or when it was from. This type of quilting is most certainly within SCA-period, that I am aware, not as clothing, but as bed covers. I know there is a yahoo group for quilting you might want to sign onto. If you want some insta-boing answers, you could track down Lisa Evans, a quilt historian who presented at K'zoo. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert(Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 On the other hand, I just read something saying that trapunto (or a similar technique) goes back at least as far as 1485, and possibly back to the 14thC, so I may have to get into it! No! I have been thinking of trapunto stays from the 1840s now you have to tempt me with hints that it was used prior to 1600! I'd love to know more:) Especially if I can then go and find out if it was used in 16thC Germany/Netherlands;) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Onto Something
just not sure what, exactly. I am finally getting around to webbing my Bella Nani documentation. While doing so, several photos I have that didn't make it into the competition paper were being prepped for uploading when it hit me: the pattern on those sleeves were finally familiar. I had recently flipped through several digitised lacemaking and embroidery pattern books. In particular, one German (dated 1527), one Venezia(dated 1561). I noted at the time the repeating knotwork motif that occurs. I have uploaded all these images onto a page: http://outoftheattic.homeip.net/Sleeve_Theory.html Please pardon the margin issues, it's rather late. For whatever reason, 2+2 suddenly added to 4: Veronese was possibly using those pattern books as embellishment inspiration. Some were so close that I could practically say with confidence that was the actual pattern used. I compared the other two with the same sleeve style, and sure enough, they too match with stunning familiarity. I thought perhaps that Veronese had designed some pattern books. It seemed logical, he has a tendancy toward strong architectural environments in his paintings. Upon a very cursory search of the net, there is no known connection between Paolo Caliari and embroidery designs. But... I did find out that his younger brother, Benedetto was the one who tended toward the grandiose architecture in the backgrounds. His sons, Carlo (or Carletto) and Gabriele, along with Benedetto, were all occupied with finishing Paolo's paintings after his death. I have to wonder if these paintings were not done entirely by Paolo himself, but his brother in particular had a hand in designing them, adding into them a geometric, architectural element by using embroidery pattern books? Benedetto in his own right has frescoes attributed to him at Villa Cornaro, and Villa Gradenigo, and shares attribution with Paolo for San Sebastiano, which accounts for each of these common sources. Having taken a look at Carlo and Benedetto's works, there are few differences in style and composition. Maybe this is what accounts for the relative novelty of these paintings? Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert(Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Onto Something
Good! I'm glad it wasn't some bizarre waking dream I was having! Glas someone else sees it too! :-) There is much debate as to the origins of Bella Nani in particular. Some say it is Caliari's wife. This is possible, since she had posed for several of his allegorical paintings and the face matches. He was married very close to the date of this painting, so again, there is a match. All circumstantial, however. Other say that is is one of the Nani family members. There is some kind of relationship between the Nanis and Paolo, but no one can lay a finger on which one it is, or when exactly the family had contact with him. There is another theory out there that this woman is completely imaginary: the idealised woman; the renaissance pin up girl, if you wish. Elementally all the virtues of the ideal wife is there. Men would commission paintings like this for their private chambers, not unlike the calendar girls often found in husbands' garages. I personally think it's a little bit of the first and third. I have done a lot of studying and reading about his works, and have come to find a consistency in his images. He will tend to add completely fantastic, outrageous, over the top jewellry and costuming to the people who are not likely to be real persons, or those real persons representing a mythological persona. In short, I think he idealised his own wife. The huge pauldrons were the major giveaway - I can't find anything else like them anywhere, at any time in history - short of one pair of real pauldrons carved into a tomb stone. It's the same case with those sleeve styles. Only Veronese uses them, and all in the same period of time. There are no extant pieces of textile nor surviving painting by another unrelated painter that shows it as actually existing. For a while I had thought perhaps it was voided velvet or some variation on that theme, but the way the sleeve hang is just... off, for some reason. I had thought perhaps that they were actually embroidered, or even overlayed with punto in aria lace, but he is detailed enough that he would have shown threads and stitches. I can't recall any surviving piece of velvet that was embroidered, either. That stuff is a pain to cover up decently with embroidery silk. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert(Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 Yep, that sleeve definitely seems to match the bottom second image on the last row from the patternbooks! But, are you certain that the sleeve is invented? Perhaps the lady's dressmaker is the one with the patternbook. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Selling Stuff
I have decided to sell off bits of my stash I won't be using. I have packed it all onto a .pdf for anyone who is interested: http://ca.geocities.com/absynthe30/avatars/sale_inventory.pdf Mostly heirloom sewing stuff, some trims. I'll put it up on Ebay if there are no bites here. Email me off list before Wednesday the 3rd if you are really keen. Otherwise I'll be back after the 7th. Kathy Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Wanting some pix
Greetings, I am gathering together information for a new project that some photography would greatly benefit from. I was hoping some sympathetic soul somewhere close to Manchester Square, London would be willing to do a quick (of course, if allowed) photo tour of the Wallace Collection for a particular cast collar. I have emailed Hertford House, and received no response to my request for more information regarding this item. I am at this point assuming the object (The Archer's Guild Collar is the object of my interest) is still in their collection and on display at Hertford House. If anyone in the London UK area is willing to take a few photos, email me offlist, and I will give you more details. Thanks, Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Venetian research question - need help
Hi Rachel, welcome to the list. :-) I can nod gravely with the been there, done that expression on my face. I have been slowly, slowly digging into Venetian mask wearing and making for a few years now. I've written a couple of SCA AS papers on it, if you are interested in comparing what I have to what you have collected. http://outoftheattic.homeip.net/Venetian_Masks.html I ran into the same brick walls you did. There was one grad listed on some university site somewhere that did her senior thesis on Venetian masks, but I have yet to figure out how to make contact with her. I find that a lot of Italian, particularly Venetian historical documents are few and far in between, and even less written in English. One needs to have a working knowledge of Latin Italian *and* access to the documents in question before one gets anywhere. And thus far, every attempt I have made to locate primary source materials in Italy have failed. The Italians just don't respond. This is not to discourage you, but giving you an idea of what you are up against. I am all *too* happy to pool resources and come up with something that we would be satisfied with. Basically, you'll likely have to get used to the statement I don't know yet, but I'm working on it, until you weed out what you are looking for. Kathy The problem comes in when I'm researching Venetian masking traditions PRIOR to the 1600's. I�d like to offer a �brief history of� handout and I�m running into all kinds of problems. I've run across a number of masking sources on the internet, professional suppliers, amateur sites and so on that give a very romantic view of the masking tradition, but don't supply any bibliography. snip So my question is � does anyone have ANY idea on a reputable scholastic source for Venetian masking traditions prior to the 17th century? Is there maybe a database out there with medieval Venetian law codes that I can tear through or maybe a recognized scholarly authority SOMEWHERE on the subject? Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Eyelet insertion trim
I have white swiss insertions and edges that I am willing to part with. I bought it wholesale (at a discount at that) years ago from a Capitol Imports distributor back when I was doing Vic and heirloom. I know its 100% cotton so it'll take dye. Some are identical to the ones on that link someone sent. Let me know what you want and and how much of it you need and I'll see if I have something suitable. Kathy Does anyone have any good online trim resources besides Jay Trims and Cheaptrims? I am looking for black eyelet insertion or dyeable white and can't seem to find it anywhere. Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Eyelet insertion trim
This was years ago, and I dealt with a Canadian distributor, which she was ahem... difficult, to say the least to deal with. I gave her the name The Dragon Lady for very good reason. She has since passed away and now Canada has no distributor, that I am currently aware of. I have no idea what Capitol is like directly though. I have a bunch of Val kicking around as well not earmarked for a project. If I have enough for your project, or at least some of it to get you started, let me know and we'll work something out. I'm only looking to get my costs out of this stuff, so I'm not planning on charging a fortune. I only keep the stuff I might make an outrageously fancy heirloom dress for my daughter out of. I largely don't do Vic anymore, swiss and val laces look wrong on Ren kits. Kathy I've ben thinking of looking into Capitol Imports. How are they to deal with? I have a big project coming up that will require lots of Val lace trim. Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Drawn Wire Thread
Fortuitous tripping upon this page pretty much clears up the question I asked recently about gold wire-wrapped embroidery thread: http://www.et-tu.com/soper-lane/access/gold.htm Incidentally, written by the same woman that wrote this upcoming book: http://takvbowes.et-tu.com/index.shtml (second posting of this link, I know, ignore it if it bores you.) Kathy __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re:Glove pic
I keep thinking I've seen this glove before, but I have seen similar ones in the portrait of Lady Mary Neville and her Son Gregory Fiennes, 10th Baron Dacre (1559) I had looked at this one too, but couldn't get a close enough look at it, till I tripped on this site: http://www.employees.org/~cathy/gloves_body.html LINEN gloves?!? Cool!! If I only had the time to construct a pair, I could let the intended wearer loose on the gauntlets - she is an avid blackwork broiderer. also look at figure 5 on this page, that is a darned close match if you rotate the hand to vertical. Elizabeth Cornwallis, Lady Kytson (1573) them) but I have a feeling in the redrawings some features may have changed. Looking at your examples and those above, I think this could be a composite drawing of various elements. Excellent sources, though. I think this is why this drawing rang bells - it's a little of everything. It's very easy to show the glove style in German dress, very easy indeed. This would be good, since it is being paired with the Nuremburg kirtle and loose gown in PoF. :-) That is very sheek! :-) Thanks. I liked them the moment I saw that drawing. :-)I was originally going to do goldworked gauntlets, but the more I took into account the style of the intended wearer, I felt this was more her pace. I would recomend you to use silk ribbon of the kind used for ribbon work, That is exactly what I plan on using. I purchased some white vintage kid gloves and will tack on the wrist decoration with russet and olive ribbons. I currently have it in a garment weight leather, butit's coming off rather heavy looking and totally overpowering the delicacy of the kid and the silk ribbons. I have also lined the leather with an orange/red shot silk to make the slashes pop. It looks good, but again, I need to lighten the leather up. I have some paper thin sueded leather in white that might work. I'm just reluctant to cut into it as it had other plans to be corset binding. I'll see what I can come up with. I wonder if I could just do it with some white taffeta and the silk ribbons instead? That would match the sheen of the kid and the delicacy of the decoration. hMust go rummaging for scraps! Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Glove pic
Okay, I have everything fixed. This is the drawing I was talking about: http://ca.geocities.com/absynthe30/avatars/hand.jpg Look familiar to anyone? Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Obsessed with underwear
Hard not to seem fetishistic when one has such a preoccupation with what goes on under one's skirts. ;-) I'm doing a bit of byproduct research at the moment and can't figure out why there is such a clearly understood, but as-of-yet not terribly well supported belief that English women didn't wear underwear for, at the very least the 1500-1600 block of time. They were worn at other points in time - bikini type appear in illuminations through the middle ages. All over continental Europe at various periods they were the norm. Thus far I have tracked the usage like this: From the Middle East to Spain, From Spain to Italy, From Italy to France, and only until after the French Revolution, does England cave in and cover up. (Or so I have found without sources thus far) Best I can find right now are two implied statements from Fynes Morryson and Samuel Pepys. Neither actually out right say English women don't wear underwear, the implication is through their reaction to continental women that do. Just where is this coming from??? Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Trying to find original source
I'm sprucing up a pair of kid gloves to look more elizabethan, and have decided this is what I want them to look like: http://ca.geocities.com/absynthe30/avatars/hand.jpg (hopefully tht link works, it said it uploaded just fine, but I couldn't get it to open myself. weird.) The drawing is from Cunningtons' Handbook of English Costume in the Sixteenth Century. When I checked her source for the drawing, it was not an original painting as I had hoped, but another book (Kelly's Shakespearean Costume). I know I have seen these gloves in a painting just recently but I can't for the life of me recall the painting itself. I had found a close-ish Spanish one, but it's hard to tell. Does it ring a bell for anyone? Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Maternity corsets - trivia
I know I had seen some around. I tripped on this page: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Maternity_corset Mostly later eras from where I was asking about originally, but a neat selection of how it was handled. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Goldwork
Computer is back up and running again. Just tell me where you would like me to send it. E says: Doh! I certainly would have been interested. It sounds vaguely familiar, probably from commercials. Im in Canada, so Im not sure we have it. I'll keep my eyes open for it. This cold has hit me fast with an intensity that suggests the gods are punishing me for something as of yet undefined. ;-) Still haven't figured out the connection between the eye infection and the cold though. Seems to be a recent development; every time I get a cold, I get a minor general infection in my eye. E says: Oh dear. Hope you get over it quickly! (Have you tried Zicam? These definitely fall under the general heading of goldwork because they contain either passing or jap threads. Basically jap thread is a much heavier version of passing. It's a bigger pain to work with too for anything other than couching. Just plunging the ends through for couching is a pain, I wouldn't want to try and actually pass that stuff through fabric repeatedly. A good indication if something was likely to have been done with jap thread (which has existed forever) or purl is the date. I remember reading somewhere that purl wasn't invented until they would make a strong enough draw plate to make wires that thin. Jap thread is made with beaten gold cut into fine strips, thus doesn't need a draw plate. Memory, as foggy as it is, is ringing a date to something like post 1500. Draw plates have been around since the Roman times, so I'd have to retrack my path to confirm this memory on why there is a difference. E says: I was afraid this would be the case. Drea Leed has some pictures of late 16thC/early 17thC coifs, several of which have a type of goldwork, on her site: http://costume.dm.net/headwear/coifpics.html I'm binding a book for this very reason. :-) I could have just scribbled notes on a piece of paper but noo.. I have to go binding those papers just so I can cover it in goldwork! stuff that screams MAKE ME at me whenever I see it. If you are being particular, you're not likely to find any. But if say you are willing to accept non-european or ecclesiastic head wear, you are more likely to find something. I think there is a miter out there loaded with the stuff. I can't think offhand where at the moment. Thing is, back then, this was pure gold. When the church or whomever owned an item covered in this stuff was in a pinch, they would burn the object to render the gold from it. If you find one of these, share it with the rest of us, would you? ;-) Or a nice manual from 1518 on how to do it. Hey, why not dream big? If you take a wander into the roccoco period, you'll find sparkly bits that'll rock your world. :-) They are so shiny they are to the point of garish sometimes. Well, they were back then. They are often badly tarnished today. The underwear I saw at the Met covered in the stuff looks like black and brown embroidery because of the heavy tarnish all over the purls. It'll be exciting to reproduce those and see what they would have looked like when they were first made. E says: Very interesting! That's certainly a lot more than I would have expected. Knots are period!! And I will feel better about what the back of my work looks like! You're quite welcome. :-) And yes I will. I'm sweating most of it out - I'm certainly sympathising with the ladies going through the Change at the moment! I swing between freezing and roasting. Blech. E says: Very much! Thanks for the info and the great ideas, and go drink lots of liquids and get plenty of rest. =} Good Luck. Don't get *too* addicted. ;-) Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Goldwork
Hiya, I recently wrote some SCA competition documentation on goldwork, that if my computer hadn't been blown up recently, I'd offer to send to you. I'll also be teaching a very-beginner class in goldwork April 1 at Forward into the Past, Cambridge, Ontario. Ironically, my plea to find the original source for that sweete bag was for the documentation of this class. I'll list my doc sources since I have a hard copy floating about. Please excuse any spelling errors, I am developing a cold and thus can't sleep, so no accounting for the condition of my coherency. I don't waste anywhere near enough money on my sewing (HAH!) I feel your pain all too well. :-) Specifically, the sort that would be used for embellishing garments and headwear in the early 16th century. I've not actually found it on *extant* headwear, per se. To qualify, I am speaking *only* of purl/bullion goldwork, not or nue or anglicanum. I have little doubt that they used it on pillbox type hats , possibly coifs and partlets. Paintings show what looks like its' use to me, but so little of the stuff exists now because of recycling, I have no hard fast evidence. I've seen it on the girdler's coronet, but that is 17th c. and at that, a repro of the original. I was actually mentally running a list of extant things I have seen it on dated roughly to the 16th c (not being culturally specific): garments - sleeves, foreparts, underwear, wedding robes, Order robe appliques accessories - gloves, sweete bags, shoes, reliquary pouches other - book covers, ecclesiastic garments, various decor items, seal purses, needle cases... I could likely be a little more accurate if my drive were running, this is off the top of my head. Please feel free to add to this list, I actually want to throw a list at my students so they have a general idea where they can apply this highly-addictive hobby. :-) http://www.berlinembroidery.com Tanya is one of my main suppliers aside from the very reasonably priced lady at Pennsic. Tammy Barnes, I think her name is? I picked up loads of smooth purl from her at a great price. IF you want to go hard core and do the REAL thing, Lorina Stephens of Five Rivers Champanry will happily lighten your load in exchange for stuff no human hands deserve to touch. *grin* Does anyone know of any good resources for learning about the authentic stuff? Authentic is relative. Having recently seen the back of extant goldwork, even my partner said jeez, what a mess! But mine always seems surprisingly tidy by comparison. I can't seem to make mine messy enough on the back to look truly authentic. o.O But from the front.. it's pretty good. Any suggestions for modern books that might help me with technique? This list is from my doc: Saunders, Sally Royal School of Needlework Embroidery Techniques BT Batsford, 1998 Campbell-Harding, Lemon, Jane, Pyman, Kit Goldwork:Revised and Expanded Edition Search Press, 1998 Synge, Lanto Art of Embroidery:History of Style and Technique The Royal School of Needlework. Woodbridge, England; (Wappingers Falls, NY): Antique Collectors Club, 2001. Staniland, Kay Embroiderers. Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1991. Franklin, Tracy A., New Ideas in Goldwork BT Batsford, 2002. Schuette, Maris, Muller-Christensen, Sigrid, A Pictorial History of Embroidery Fredrik A. Praeger, New York, 1964. I have recently added this one to my collection: Lomny, Antonia, The Art and Craft of Goldwork Simon and Schuster, 2004. This one is great for small projects to familiarise yourself with techniques. It is Australian, and thus the technique is slightly different from most traditional techniques; they use Sadi bullion which is of Indian origin. They also use passing thread to couch with, which drives me nuts. Personally I use the YLI silk heirloom threads. There is an or nue project in there I want to try to get a grip on how it's done. The Royal School book also has great practise projects in it covering all traditional gold work techniques. My current project (which I would have had pictures of if my camera hadn't burped on me - just not my week for technology!) erroneously has one flower done with Sadi bullion, the rest with traditional. It doesn't show up until the light hits at the right angle, then you can't miss the difference. Ultimately I don't think it matters, just so long as you use all the same material from the same origin. I started embroidering when I was 7 or 8, so I do have experience with that angle of it, but I think a lot of that just doesn't translate. Actually, it does. Once I got over the hump of thinking same-but-different, I taught myself very quickly. And it's not the sort of thing where I'd want to spend tons of time experimenting blind, because even the cheap version of the silly stuff is so expensive per yard. Let me check my card for my Pennsic contact. It'll make the costs a little easier to swallow. Right now, costume storage is jammed into the sewing room as
[h-cost] Re: Goldwork
Hiya, I recently wrote some SCA competition documentation on goldwork, that if my computer hadn't been blown up recently, I'd offer to send to you. I'll also be teaching a very-beginner class in goldwork April 1 at Forward into the Past, Cambridge, Ontario. Ironically, my plea to find the original source for that sweete bag was for the documentation of this class. I'll list my doc sources since I have a hard copy floating about. Please excuse any spelling errors, I am developing a cold and thus can't sleep, so no accounting for the condition of my coherency. I don't waste anywhere near enough money on my sewing (HAH!) I feel your pain all too well. :-) Specifically, the sort that would be used for embellishing garments and headwear in the early 16th century. I've not actually found it on *extant* headwear, per se. To qualify, I am speaking *only* of purl/bullion goldwork, not or nue or anglicanum. I have little doubt that they used it on pillbox type hats , possibly coifs and partlets. Paintings show what looks like its' use to me, but so little of the stuff exists now because of recycling, I have no hard fast evidence. I've seen it on the girdler's coronet, but that is 17th c. and at that, a repro of the original. I was actually mentally running a list of extant things I have seen it on dated roughly to the 16th c (not being culturally specific): garments - sleeves, foreparts, underwear, wedding robes, Order robe appliques accessories - gloves, sweete bags, shoes, reliquary pouches other - book covers, ecclesiastic garments, various decor items, seal purses, needle cases... I could likely be a little more accurate if my drive were running, this is off the top of my head. Please feel free to add to this list, I actually want to throw a list at my students so they have a general idea where they can apply this highly-addictive hobby. :-) http://www.berlinembroidery.com Tanya is one of my main suppliers aside from the very reasonably priced lady at Pennsic. Tammy Barnes, I think her name is? I picked up loads of smooth purl from her at a great price. IF you want to go hard core and do the REAL thing, Lorina Stephens of Five Rivers Champanry will happily lighten your load in exchange for stuff no human hands deserve to touch. *grin* Does anyone know of any good resources for learning about the authentic stuff? Authentic is relative. Having recently seen the back of extant goldwork, even my partner said jeez, what a mess! But mine always seems surprisingly tidy by comparison. I can't seem to make mine messy enough on the back to look truly authentic. o.O But from the front.. it's pretty good. Any suggestions for modern books that might help me with technique? This list is from my doc: Saunders, Sally Royal School of Needlework Embroidery Techniques BT Batsford, 1998 Campbell-Harding, Lemon, Jane, Pyman, Kit Goldwork:Revised and Expanded Edition Search Press, 1998 Synge, Lanto Art of Embroidery:History of Style and Technique The Royal School of Needlework. Woodbridge, England; (Wappingers Falls, NY): Antique Collectors Club, 2001. Staniland, Kay Embroiderers. Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1991. Franklin, Tracy A., New Ideas in Goldwork BT Batsford, 2002. Schuette, Maris, Muller-Christensen, Sigrid, A Pictorial History of Embroidery Fredrik A. Praeger, New York, 1964. I have recently added this one to my collection: Lomny, Antonia, The Art and Craft of Goldwork Simon and Schuster, 2004. This one is great for small projects to familiarise yourself with techniques. It is Australian, and thus the technique is slightly different from most traditional techniques; they use Sadi bullion which is of Indian origin. They also use passing thread to couch with, which drives me nuts. Personally I use the YLI silk heirloom threads. There is an or nue project in there I want to try to get a grip on how it's done. The Royal School book also has great practise projects in it covering all traditional gold work techniques. My current project (which I would have had pictures of if my camera hadn't burped on me - just not my week for technology!) erroneously has one flower done with Sadi bullion, the rest with traditional. It doesn't show up until the light hits at the right angle, then you can't miss the difference. Ultimately I don't think it matters, just so long as you use all the same material from the same origin. I started embroidering when I was 7 or 8, so I do have experience with that angle of it, but I think a lot of that just doesn't translate. Actually, it does. Once I got over the hump of thinking same-but-different, I taught myself very quickly. And it's not the sort of thing where I'd want to spend tons of time experimenting blind, because even the cheap version of the silly stuff is so expensive per yard. Let me check my card for my Pennsic contact. It'll make the costs a little easier to swallow. Right now, costume storage is jammed into the sewing room as
[h-cost] Re: Goldwork
Im not worried, just annoyed at the inconvenience. My husband has built a fortress for a network in this house that includes nightly tape back ups. We outgrew zip drive back up years ago. I'm just stuck waiting till he finds a functioning power supply to make it operational again. Had I believed that I had actually lost anything, I would *not* be this relaxed. I have some rather important and irreplaceable files on my drive. Namely the Sture translations, which are slow but progressing. My husband learned the hard way several years ago not to go messing with my computer without backing it up first. Kathy I had a computer crash last year. Since then I save everything to disk... within a few days of putting it on my computer. It's a hard lesson but that's one of the hassles of new technology. It's harder to fix than to get. Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Underwear, Demystified
Well frankly, since this is my first crack at the really serious, I know what I'd *like* to do with it just not quite sure how to achieve the goal. That's kinda where my mentor steps in and starts pointing in the right directions. *grins big at Susan* Hope your cat herding skills are sharp. ;-) I want to start smaller first; I have my Bocksten Bog Man paper written a couple years ago that I would like to modify into publishable format through TI or CA (SCA publications for those not involved in the group) and see if hard core editing of my blood sweat and tears is something I can handle. I also need a fast and dirty lesson or two on publishing issues and copyright laws. That is a completely foreign language to me. The Met are aware of my goals and weren't shocked by them, which is a positive step in the right direction. I have little clue what K'zoo will expect out of a presentation - but yes, that is one of my goals. I've already been told that going just as a spectator to get a grip of how things are done first is my best bet, so I hope to wind up there this year. By that time, I should be part way through stewing this stuff into something palatable and still able to modify the current draft to better fit expectations. I should know if I am able to present at the following year right about the time you are organising things. :-) Ultimately, I do want this published so that those who can't necessarily see this stuff in person can run with it based on clinical evidence. Once that's done... I'll be ready to start writing it into a final finding paper. :-D Which you will be presenting ... where? snip (And yes, it's a very good idea to present before you publish. It's like a first layer of peer review.) I giggled like a school girl when I read this. That is the best encouragement I could get. *big grin* And I will certainly buy your book when it comes out ;~ Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Corded corset Shrinkage?
Allison, I have made a corded corset and no, it won't shrink dramatically. Even if it does, it will stretch back out again once under tension. Mine is made from cotton corset coutil and linen tabby lining with hemp cording and garment weight leather binding. I find after wearing it for a couple of hours, I wish I could tighten it a little, but being a front laced, I can't. Highly absorbent garment however... Kathy Does anyone have any experience with possible shrinkage? The site mentions no exact numbers and that it's highly variable by fabric type. I'm planning on making the corseted part out of cotton canvas. Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Jealousy, envy Desired Careers (Long)
That would be me. :-) I think I am on the other end of the same journey as the original poster. That is why that quote means so much to me. I have always been creative to the point of excess. But having had an learning disability that I didn't learn how to function with until I was nearly out of school, it always held me back from what I really wanted to do. Frankly, I didn't realise what it was until these past couple of years. I knew it was to be creative (I had plans on going into tech theatre program ay Ryerson and working my wany into the [Canadian] budding market of special effects makeup), I had all the contacts and opportunities before me, but I was engaged to someone much older than I when I graduated highschool. He didn't want me to be hung up in university, getting myself in debt, or being anything that might have proven useful or profitable. Frankly, he wanted a baby machine and house slave. His exact words have been burned into my memory You'll never go anywhere with that, it's a waste of time. Why don't you go for secretary or something? This guy said he loved me. Funny, that. It took him 3 years after I broke up with him to realise his mistakes, and by then it was too late. It was also too late for me to pursue that avenue. Thus I ended up in business accounting, which was ironic relative to my learning disability dyscalculia- an inability to function with numbers. It was that inability to function that held me back from applying to university; my grades in math were horrendous despite all my other grades being in the upper 70-100. They would have thrown my application out without even bothering to look deeper. I had learned to function with this just fine my senior year of highschool; I understand how my brain works and I pick up numbers almost as fast as anyone else. All my skills have been the same from the beginning but applied in lateral ways, thus not giving me the satisfaction I have always been searching for. I have never had a job that I loved so much that it got me out of bed every morning. I did what I had to do to get the bills paid. A friend had said to me that I have put my time in (I am 35 years old and have held 18 jobs in my life, working since the age of 14 and many times, held up to 3 of those jobs down at the same time. I haven't worked for 6 years), the opportunity exists to take a break from it - why not grab it and enjoy life for a while? So I did. It put me on a path that is only defining itself now. I was for a while, devolving as a person during that break. The powers-that-be said nope, this is not where you are supposed to be heading, we're gonna throw something at you that will smarten you up and put you back on you path. I had a child, who is also further defining the person I am meant to be - and of course, put me back on my path. I have always sewn, drawn, sculpted... I prefer the complex things because I like the challenge of putting my skills to the test. Someone gave me a magazine and a nightie pattern then said you know, I am not really into this french heirloom stuff. maybe you'll be into it. Take this these. And I did. And it was good. That spawned into Victorian costuming passion that has produced a closet load of garments hanging in stasis. Since the Vic reenactment is not a strong theme in this region, that passion died bitterly in the cradle. It also caused a long standing consternation between my husband and I; he resents my passion for creating beautiful things. But because I love it so much, I am willing to go to war with him whenever I dig into another project. He is the sort of reason for my other quote in my sig. *He* may not appreciate what I do, nor take it seriously or think it worthy, but dammit, I know I am not the only one out there that shares the love for beautiful things and how they are made. Well, now I am being taken seriously by large institutions regarding my current research. This revived that dead ember of passion into something that I have secure faith will go somewhere. My husband thinks I should be paid vast amounts and awed (*shudder* closer to feared for the insane things I get myself into), but I know that there is more passion than cash in this chosen field. But again, I am willing to defend what I love enough to become the person I am meant to be. It's funny that everyone mentions that they put little or no effort into what they wear every day. I too am the same. I consider my every day clothes functional necessities. I rarely if ever find a trend that works for both my sense of style and body type, so, why put the effort into it? But when I wear my kits... I am thoroughly empowered. The repression mask comes off and I am more the person I really am, perhaps in some cases more magnified. But I have less regret and more certainty while wearing something that makes me feel like me. I am a bundle of nerves and quite uncertain of myself any other day. I believe I was born many years too late. :-) Sorry for the
[h-cost] Underwear, Demystified
I'm back!!! And frivolously cross posting this all over the place;please pardon my excitement. : I have to say (yet again!), any photo I have *ever* seen will not do those garments justice! This was a most amazing experience. I have to thank Nikki a million times over for being a patient and humourous compass. I, being the directionally impaired, would not have made it *to* the Met, let alone around the island and then home! It was luck of the draw we got along so well, having only met once for about an hour the year previous. Thankyouthankyouthankyou!! Okay, the cool stuff everyone has been looking forward to: Underwear Mythbusting. I won't have complete data available right away, I still have to crunch it into a readable format, however I can happily say that even the museum staff were impressed with the level of detail I was painstakingly dragging the Most Patient Nikki through. She recorded as fast as she could while I fired numbers and terms at her as fast as she could write. After four hours she was just about mental mush. By hour six, so was I - but could have kept going! You have much to look forward to in the coming months. :-) Myth #1 The Stained Drawers They are not in any way stained by blood. They are not even stained in the right place for it to be blood of natural causes. The photos that we are all used to have some kind of strange shadow artifact. We have mapped out the stains, however the stains are not *nearly* as dark as the photos suggest. My suspicion is, the inks used to trace out the embroidery pattern leeched into subsequent layers when the garment got wet while being folded. There is no evidence that suggests that someone tried to remove the stains which tells me they haven't been used since the stains occured. In fact, none of these garments look like they have been used, ever. This one garment though has taken a beating of some kind; it has substantial evidence of poor-quality repair work throught the seams and embroidery. The fabric shows no wear that says it was actually damaged through actual use, though. Myth #1A The Stained Drawers have a front and back V opening Not true. The back should have a seam in it; the seam has torn away down from the waist, but has done so cleanly enough that it appears to have a seam finish. The waistband is supposed to be a casing that a drawstring runs though. Myth #2 - The Gathered Drawers are crotchless Patently untrue. In fact they are gusseted, just as the other above is. It's just a really long opening. They are just like any other pair of knickers one might envision. I have to say though that the sewing on this garment is just... incredible. The seams are as sturdy and perfect as the day they were made. So much so I couldn't find the selvedge edge inside the seams. And the stitches are so perfectly repeated and tiny, it looks as if a machine had made them. Myth #2A - The Gathered Drawers are closed with a button Again, untrue. They have two small eyelets for a point tie to pass through. The pattern down the opening is goldwork, as is the rest of the embellishment which excited me to no end. Goldwork embroidery is my new obsession so I get to decorate to my heart's content. Given the nature of goldwork though, it's amazing that the embroidery is still in perfect condition at the opening. This point leads me to further believe this trousseau was never worn. Myth #3 - The Stockings were once sleeves I totally disagree with this supposition. They have piecing in them that are absolutely identical to one another which says to me that it was a part of the cutting design. They are also above the knee stockings so the photos simply have not given relevant context to their dimensions. I would hazard that the intended wearer was roughly my height (5'5); if I compare the overall length of the stocking to my own leg, it sits perfectly above my knee by about 2 inches. I have some numbers and formulae I can use to establish this for certain, I just have to crunch it and see what pops out. I want to roughly estimate the overall size of the intended wearer so I can better understand how the clothing sat on the body. Myth #4 - The Gathered Chemise is blackworked I'll leave embroidery technique out of this for a moment and say no, indeed it is not *black* work - it is mauve and plum. Yes, purple, to be general about it. And somewhat variegated at that. It was such an odd shade of purple that we couldn't find an accurate match to them in the swatch book. Basically, the colour codes we have are close in value, but one must sadden the tone considerably. Myth #5 - The Ungathered Chemise has been tampered with considerably Most certainly has been; this one is confirmed without a doubt. The lower hem embellishment is petit point cross stitch in a totally wrong style of embroidery. In fact, the whole thing looked so far off from what I have seen in the other items in this collection, I left that one to
[h-cost] Re: Underwear, Demystified
Sharon, I believe that the Realm of Venus website has a couple of the photos scanned from these books: Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd by Janet Arnold The History of Underclothes by Cunnington (a husband and wife team) There are a couple of other smaller publications as well, one in German I believe. I have literally hundreds of photos of this collection, but since I intend to publish at some point, I am confined by their copyright. Until I know exactly what their limits are, I can't show off my new prized possessions. I am hoping I can draw images from the photos to avoid copyright chaos. I plan on contacting their images department to sort that out soon. Kathy Having recently joined the group, Where can I see pics of this underwear? Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Mystery Bag
Melanie, you're an angel! Thank you SO much!!! I had tried there only briefly before I left for NY and couldn't find it. Thanks again!! Kathy It's from the Los Angeles County Museum of Art: Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Mystery Bag
In my late night perusals of the web, I had come across this sweet bag. I know it is gold work, and likely 16th c., otherwise I wouldn't have the photo. But for the *life of me* I can't remember where I got it from, thus have no attribution. Since I am using the motif all over everything lately, could everyone search their memories and hopfully come up with the location I originally found this photo at so that I might reattach its attribution and provenance? http://ca.geocities.com/absynthe30/avatars/M91_165.jpg Thanks so much. Kathy 24 hours away from New York and old underwear... Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Tailor mannequins
Has anyone here have any experience with this company? I am in the market for a male, and if there are good reviews, a plus female mannequin. Even their heir base model looks pretty good. Price isn't too terrible, either for what you're getting. http://www.fabulousfit.com/ Any opinions or suggestions eagerly welcome. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Elizabethan Corset habits.
Perhaps a personal perception thing. I find that when a larger woman wears a corset, there really isn't a major change in her shape- it's just smoother. A smaller woman, because she does have less stuff to squish, will see more dramatic response to the compression. Add to that a bumroll on a small woman and the difference becomes even more pronounced, whereas a larger woman likely won't need one at all; the corset will have pinched just enough that her hips will have popped out all by themselves. Kathy I'm puzzled as to what you mean by this, Kathy. Surely a thin woman has few squishy bits and so can't mould herself into a different shape? I can't change my shape with a corset except by constricting my lower ribs so that I can't breathe freely. Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Elizabethan Corset Habits was: Gestational Stays
Not that I am arguing th validity of your points, I think though some could be qualified. Both of us have a losing battle trying to truly prove our points of view, so take it for what it's worth. With high fashion (of England France and Spain) there was a very definite tendancy to much waist reduction. There is no doubt that someone somewhere, and likely quantities of them in high fashion circles got into tight lacing in the period. Extreme body modification is a curious human trait that transcends time. I would hazard however that the masses were not in the habit of tight lacing. Corsetry, at it's core purpose is to mould the squishy bits into a pleasing shape. Some people just take that a step further than others. The ideal was as extreme (in it's way) as the ideal in the late Victorian era! snips links Of course most of these are stylised, but that's the point. Therein lies the problem with portrait paintings - they are at best someone else's interpretation of reality, and worse yet, the sitter might have requested they not paint in that double chin or hairy wart on their cheek. ;-) What you suggest is akin to what goes on today - photoshop takes care of all the model's sins, they are printed to look like reality, then sent to us to swallow whole. However within the context we are talking about, it's impossible to check for the real cellulite on their thighs. ;-) At least two of those paintings you had posted looks very much to me like girls, not women, either. The last two in particular. I would very much like to see the DOB of the sitter against the date of the painting. Also too, I think running the rest through a program that could enhance details might just show the illusion going on - a lot of shadow casting down the sides of the torso. The ideal was this extreme shape (for various reasons of art and fashion.) I think there is a perception thing going on too. Illusion may make it appear that they are severely tightened, however a good taylor that knows how to fool the eye can do just as much. My Venetian gown does just that. I am not even wearing a corset, yet I look like I am *and* I even look like I have a waist! A not so bad one, at that. ;-) Mostly because I have a long point at centre front and the waist at the sides have been raised 2 over my natural, further artificially drawing the eye to the centre of my body. snips many quotes A mix of fact and fiction to make it sound worse than it was. Exactly. That she be so bombe-thin, yet she crosse like seems four squaire My point again about the age of the women. Most girls are twiggy and could pull off looking like they have been tight laced. Also too naturally thin women always show more extreme body shaping than better-padded ones. It's hard to compare, but the method of optical illusion (broader shoulders and skirts) with fitted stays is very similar in many periods. Carefully designed embellishment can achieve much too. Combine that with large shoulders and huge hemlines, and the waist is bound to appear small. What needs to be done but is largely impossible to do, is take a corset known to be owned by a given individual, then have that individual's remains examined, and essentially rebuild them virtually and see where the differences lie. This of course would be a singular example and *very* hard to take a useful sampling to prove anything either way, but it would be a benchmark. It would be a very expensive, if not very interesting experiment. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Gestional Stays
Is this the Lady Burghley portrait being talked about? http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/images/Gamage,Barbara(Sidney)01.jpg Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays
Gah! I think that's the one that that came to mind for me as well, she is literally covered in pearls, right? I did a quick search on Lady Burghley and couldn't find the painting. I'll have to do a little more digging. She however is an example of nobility, rather than middle class, which is where the focus of my efforts are. But.. it's a start. I know that there's a portrait of Lady Burghley in a very pregnant state wearing a kirtle and surcoat. :-) I appreciate the concern, however I personally can't event *get* pregnant anymore, so miscarriage is not a concern of mine. It is indeed a concern to the person I would be making it for, however. The Gestational stays that I am thinking of have expansion lacing in the front so as not to constrict the belly. This is something of a nosy bit of research to see how such a thing was handled at the time. Hi Kathy, First off, let me warn you not to wear stays during your pregnancy, I know from my research in Venetian dress, indeed, they wore what amounted to a muumuu type.. thing... chiton? sort of affair in the last days when nothing will fit. This is however, in the stages of full confinement when no one will see her except immediate family. Since breast binding wasn't an unheard of thing, it is possible that they bound, just enough for support and wore looser clothing. This is a logical assumption, it's a question of what happens after they outgrew their stays - did they have a soft pair of bodies? Or, is it like the pattern I have described and has expansion lacing in a say, quilt-stiffened corset? Or as you suggest, and bound? I'm thinking to, that quite possibly they loosened their stays as they got bigger, until the point they couldn't wear them. then again too, Elizabethan corsetry wasn't designed to be tightened severely. That's a Victorian convention. as in tight lacing... Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays
Rebecca, Please do. The more references we have, the happier we will be. :-) Kathy I have photos, but nowhere to put them up online. I can send them to you directly if you would like - let me know. Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays
Susan, That would be great! I am asking as a part of a team for a costuming competition, so having a link with several useful things on it would be grand. :-) We are planning a middle class English/Flemish loose gown. The model is planning a pregancy, so we wanted to make sure we had all the accomodation for it - it would add an interesting touch to the research. Kathy I've found about a half dozen or so paintings of pregnant women late in the SCA period -- including one that's just out of period. I can see about getting them posted somewhere if y'all are interested; one of them appears to be a pregnant Eleanor of Toledo! Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Gestational Stays
I'm doing a little nosing around on this subject. Another discussion offlist brought up the issue of support in the Elizabethan era during pregnancy. Is there any evidence of what women did while pregnant but not yet confined, for support? I'm sure the middle class couldn't afford a lengthy confinement, if at all. They had to do something while waiting for the end to come. I know there is a pattern from ohh.. I think late 18th early 19th c. out there, I'm wondering where they got the idea from. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Livrustkammaren/Sture Shirts
For those whom were asking for it, here it is. The Livrustkammaren Journal of the Royal Armoury Stockholm, Vol. IV:8-9 Stureskjortorna by Anna-Maja Nylen. It's a BIG file, I have zipped it, but be prepared. I have scanned everything LARGE so that details are preserved. http://outoftheattic.homeip.net/venetian_costuming.html I'll leave it up for a week or so then take it down. If anyone misses it while catching up to email, email me off list and I'll upload it again. Now that the file has been scanned, I can get on translating. That will take me some time, I'll get back to you on it. :-) Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Livrustkammaren/Sture Shirts
I wish I knew. I only know that as a whole the entire set of scans is 29 megs. I wanted to make a PDF of them, but hubby, who actually knows how to do that, is down with a virus right now. So I did the best I could with what I had. 'sides, asking the computer demi god simple questions like this is taking ones' life into ones' hands... He has little patience for my fundamental queries. Ironic it is a virus that has him crashed on the couch at the moment. ;-) Sorry, I couldn't resist the bad joke. Anyone who wants to make a pdf of them, go right ahead. Kathy I've never had much luck with zipped files since I never know how to unzip them. PDF I can deal with. How big is it as a PDF? That I would download immediately. Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Livrustkammaren/Sture Shirts
I wish I knew. I only know that as a whole the entire set of scans is 29 megs. I wanted to make a PDF of them, but hubby, who actually knows how to do that, is down with a virus right now. So I did the best I could with what I had. 'sides, asking the computer demi god simple questions like this is taking ones' life into ones' hands... He has little patience for my fundamental queries. Ironic it is a virus that has him crashed on the couch at the moment. ;-) Sorry, I couldn't resist the bad joke. Anyone who wants to make a pdf of them, go right ahead. Kathy I've never had much luck with zipped files since I never know how to unzip them. PDF I can deal with. How big is it as a PDF? That I would download immediately. Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Underwear Menses (was: medieval quote on
This.. is kinda why I was leaning to the marriage night theory. I recall at some point in history that women were often confined to their chambers if not bed during their periods. And seeing maternity fashions in Renaissance Venice- or lack thereof, I can see that they did not tend to put a great deal of effort into private clothing that was meant to take a serious beating. Another thought that came to mind and it's one that we rely upon when thinking about whether or not to use underwear today- Would it be generally agreed that based on available portraiture from England and Venice (using two that we are familiar with for now) that Venetian women were more ruebenesque than English women? Perhaps it's a matter of friction, just like today. I remember those long lost days of thin-hood, and wearing itty bitty undies under a skirt was normal. Now, I'm hauling out knickers to my knees so that I am not dreadfully uncomfortable. Given the relative warm humidity of Venice versus the cooler dampness of England, a heavier woman would be wanting something to ease the friction under all those layers. Heck, I do now, and I live in Canada! Kathy In any case, since this was raised in the context of discussing underwear, it is worth explicitly reminding ourselves that while currently in the US and similar cultures we often deal with menstruation by attaching something to underwear, this solution is in fact extremely modern. snip That is, sanitary protection tells us nothing about underwear, and underwear tells us nothing about sanitary protection snip Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: drawers
I've been quiet and watching this convresation evolve, and honestly I have been enjoying myself. It gives food for thought as to why these underwear, and another Venetian pair that indeed look like men's breeches, exist in the first place. It also further develops the question as to why one of them is stained in a strategic place. I'll throw some opinions and theories out there and see why others think... conversation fodder. This collection is referred to as the Sicilian Bride. Following along with the lingerie philosophy that it's not the contents, but the packaging that make it sweeter would it be a habit to wrap the prize of marriage to further entice the couple into consummation? By extension, the other pair that are listed as undergarments: http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/extdraw2.htm and given the blatant nature of the phrase all over them, are we back to the underwear on women are for enticement theory? It also seems odd to put so much decorative effort into a marginally functional garment if they were not in regular use. I think it was Lawner that mentioned a text reference to courtesans and prostitutes being church sanctioned in order to try and turn the homosexual males back to a more biblical way of life. I think there was also mention of some women cross dressing for this very reason - playing an erotic cross-gendering game. Would it not be another type of erotic game to dress like a woman but wear men's underwear underneath all that obvious femininity? I think too that we have to take into account the culture these underwear are attached - Sicilian, not Italian as many people believe. Sicily is more attached to Spain than it is Italy at this time. I am rather vague on both Spanish and Sicilian 16th c. cultures to really make any comment on the commonality of intimate undergarments for women. I think our general ignorance on the subject of feminine hygiene has nothing to do with it not being written down. I suspect it's more due to it being hidden away, my guess would be typical of the Victorian, possibly earlier depending on the social mores of the time and place. I have an entire book written on childbirth and its' associated rituals in Venice. It contains some surprisingly frank art within it's covers. Unfortunately, since it deals with childbirth as an event, there is no real mention of how menses are handled in it. I would suspect though, that if we followed the authors' original sources, we would find more than our share of information. In all of the primary texts that I have come across relative to sexuality in general, the Venetians at least, are very straightforward and have a rather colourful and broad vocabulary covering such private topics. Looking up sangue in Florios' 1611 Italian-English Dictionary garners me a broad variety of derivatives that can be applied to a woman's menstrual blood. Looking up menses I get a period (pardon the pun) term for a woman's monthly: Me'nstruo: a womans monethly(sic) termes, issues, fluxes, sheddings or flowers. Also silver(?) among Alchemists. Flowers?! So they really weren't any less frank about it than we are, really. And honestly we are just as allusive today as they were then - that whole period and flowers thing. Therein lies a possible explanation as to why we know little about the topic - code words that were used amongst familiar groups that are meaningless to us today. Either way, it bears looking into. My general opinion on the stained underwear I mentioned above is the possibility of proof of consummation. The provenance of the garments suggests that the woman in question was possibly not that well-to-do, perhaps from a convent orphanage. If she married above her station, mayhap this was her insurance against annulment? It would seem odd to save stained underwear in a time whenall fabrics were too precious not to put into regular daily use, or sell off for rags. I suppose I will know more when I see them in person - if the stain looks undisturbed or washed several times since their discolouration. Anyway, food for thought. Kathy Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re:Italian Underwear
I'm still in shock they are letting me do this, to be honest. :-) I'm waiting for the HA! We got ya! when I arrive for my appointment. ;-) OHMYGOD! I am green with envy :). I can take colour pics, but I can't publish them without permission. I can draw to my hearts' content based on my photos, however. I might just set up a photo gallery for like a week or something and say go nuts, I'm taking it down in 7 days... but you never heard me say that. ;-) That was my big sticking point with the photos they have on file- no size reference. I could count the thread of the fabric they were so close up, but with no point of reference, it's useless. I am hoping to get some construction pics and specs as well, I am not sure if they will allow me to move the garments that much though. I really, really hope they do. Ahh, good point, I'll bring my embroidery encyclopedia so I can compare them to something with a proper name, since the world of embroidery and sewing have such inexact or multiple titles for their techniques. I'm trying my best to make this as concrete as possible. I am also going to attempt to reconstruct the original wearer so I can better understand *how* these garments were worn. Looking at the underwear, they have significantly different crotch depths. One must have been worn at the hip, the other at the waist. If so, then that alters the length of the leg - did it come to her knee? Above? Below? The sleeves look a bit long just hanging there, just how much was fullness, and how much was arm length? I can't really estimate her girth really since I am dealing with ease in the cuffs, but I might be able to get something out of the stockings with a calf or ankle measurement. My sister-in-law was pre-med and still has ber biomechanics books kicking around. She's going to dig the one up with the human anatomy formulas in it, hopefully I will be able to extract some useful numbers from the clothing and have a better guess at the size of the woman whom used to wear these clothes. Kathy Any color pics would be great, references for colors will be fantastic. Pics of the embroidery w/ something to put it in scale would also be very much appreciated. How about pics of the reverse side as well? And best estimates on types of embroidery stitches used? Close-ups of the construction seams and how they are stitched would also be good. *** Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Italian Underwear/late or missing messages Is it just me, or are others missing posts. I didn't get Kathy's original on this topic, and would have like to read it. Suzi, As a side note, I am in the middle of scanning the Livrstkammaren Journal right now. I hope to have it done soon. I'll be starting on the translations right after that. This is essentially the original post: I am gearing up for my visit to the Met to document their 16th century Sicilian Bride underpinning collection and a pair of chopines. I had to delay from my original date of the 5th - I would be just coming down from my high right about now, had I gone when I was supposed to. But, life jumped up and got in the way... This delay has proven fortuitous in that the curator, knowing how much we are trying to cover in a short period of time, gave us an additional 2 hours with the collection, totalling 6 hours of delerious pleasure with 2 pairs of drawers, 2 chemises, a shirt, a pair of stockings and a pair of chopines. Although I don't have pics of everything I am viewing that day, these are what I can find: http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/extcam1.htm http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/Drawers.JPG http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/ItalianDrawersQEWUMed.jpg http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/08/eustn/hod_1973.114.4a%2Cb.htm These items have been variously pictured in books like Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd, History of Underclothes, and two of the items will be in the upcoming posthumous Arnold Shirts book - however if my guess is right, they won't deal with actual colours of the embroidery, but most likely will have brilliant drawings of it. So, knowing that we have the time to go into dramatic detail, and wanting to maximise said time, I am trolling for additional questions to my own. I have all kinds of supplies and equipment allowed to me as long as it is non-destructive, which means as long as I don't use a flash, cameras are allowed. I will be bringing along with me a linen tester, magnifying glass, a DMC floss chart for the polychrome embroideries, measuring equipment, drawing supplies, cotton gloves and of course my camera. Adele and I will be measuring everything initially in mm but will translate that to imperial while processing our data so that it is universally readable. Anyone else out there have burning questions you'd like answered about these garments? Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it.
[h-cost] Italian Underwear
I am gearing up for my visit to the Met to document their 16th century Sicilian Bride underpinning collection and a pair of chopines. I had to delay from my original date of the 5th - I would be just coming down from my high right about now, had I gone when I was supposed to. But, life jumped up and got in the way... This delay has proven fortuitous in that the curator, knowing how much we are trying to cover in a short period of time, gave us an additional 2 hours with the collection, totalling 6 hours of delerious pleasure with 2 pairs of drawers, 2 chemises, a shirt, a pair of stockings and a pair of chopines. Although I don't have pics of everything I am viewing that day, these are what I can find: http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/extcam1.htm http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/Drawers.JPG http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/ItalianDrawersQEWUMed.jpg http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/08/eustn/hod_1973.114.4a%2Cb.htm These items have been variously pictured in books like Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd, History of Underclothes, and two of the items will be in the upcoming posthumous Arnold Shirts book - however if my guess is right, they won't deal with actual colours of the embroidery, but most likely will have brilliant drawings of it. So, knowing that we have the time to go into dramatic detail, and wanting to maximise said time, I am trolling for additional questions to my own. This is also my first time doing something like this, so I am fairly sure I haven't thought of everything. I have all kinds of supplies and equipment allowed to me as long as it is non-destructive, which means as long as I don't use a flash, cameras are allowed. I will be bringing along with me a linen tester, magnifying glass, a DMC floss chart for the polychrome embroideries, measuring equipment, drawing supplies, cotton gloves and of course my camera. Adele and I will be measuring everything initially in mm but will translate that to imperial while processing our data so that it is universally readable. Anyone else out there have burning questions you'd like answered about these garments? Kathy Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Have you seen this painting?
Susan wrote: Ooh, cool! No, I haven't. What can you tell me about the book? Storia del costume in Italia by Rosita Levi Pisetzky. Volume 3 or 4, IIRC. Milano : Istituto editoriale italiano, 1964-1969 I can't wait to see if you can track down a color copy! Me too! It would help clarify an awful lot. Robin wrote: No clues, but something doesn't feel right about the portrait; the face seems Victorian. It may be a later copy, or perhaps if this is an older book (pre-photography), it is an engraving intended to show the painting. It *is* attributed, so it may be possible. I don't think it an engraving though. I can't tell from the online version whether it is an engraving, but that should be obvious from the book itself. It looks pretty much the same. The paper is typical glossy print. None of the other paintings in this tome are engraved; they are all originals, to the best of my knowledge. On another list I posted this request to, someone said the caption below it discussed mostly jewellry. She offered to translate it for me, which I'll take her up on and see just what it's referring to this painting for. At best it is indeed c. 1540, and just an unusual style for the time. I have found pretty much the same stuff as the others whom had responded, and apparently he had done another court painting of note. I'd very much like to find a larger image of that painting and compare the artist styles, even if to satisfy myself that his style is simply unique. Cynthia wrote: That would be my guess -- a tantalizing lead for the real painting. What marvelous sleeves! Yes! That is what caught my attention. That and the rather unsual flat front bodice that appears to run down the length of the gown, yet the hips are clearly fuller. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the engineering of this silhouette based on contemporary styles from other paintings. De wrote: Probably because it is Giovanni Bahuet in which many of his paintings are in a private collection in Mantua. I just wish they had a few more in an online gallery for comparative purposes. Another type of ceremonial costume is Vincenzo Gonzaga's attire for his 1587 coronation as Duke of Mantua Having done a dig on Gonzaga I finally found a pic of that painting large enough to get a general feel for his style - it seems relative. And since this painting is solidly dated... well, *shrug* http://www.kingstudio.it/pagine%20Abiti%20ricostriti/vincenzo-abito.htm http://www.sapere.it/tca/minisite/arte/nonsolomostre/images/tramaoro5.jpg It's interesting that they used Bahuet's painting as being more correct than Reubens' work. However it's important to note that the painting I am searching for and this one are nearly 40 years apart and his style may have evolved. They seem reasonably close at this point though. I found this too, for anyone interested in a complete series of costumes made based on Gonzaga's marriage portrait: www.a-mantova.com/News/kingstudio.html It looks like the Toledo repro is in there too. For some reason this collection looks suspiciously familiar. E House wrote: http://www.mantovaducale.it/eng_museo.htm I couldn't find any info about it on their English site (couldn't get the Italian version to load) but it couldn't hurt to try emailing/writing them. Absolutely. I had found this too, but my only reservation is that in the past I have had extremely poor luck getting a reply to any of my queries in Italy. I have tried on repeated occasions to locate items, ask more information on a painting, all answered with silence. Most frustrating. Not that I won't bang my head yet again against this particular Italian wall... Becky wrote: The artist is also knows as Giovanni Bahuet, a Renaissance painter. The thing I find most odd about this is that this painter apparently worked in Gonzaga's court his entire career. My first thought was this was a woman from Vincenzo's childhood - his mother's court, but that isn't possible since his mother was Eleonora von Habsburg, from what I can find she is from the Viennese branch (looks like she was born in Wien?). *does a little rummaging* Oh I know who the Isabella is they are talking about. It's great-great grandma, Isabella d'Este (1474-1539), married to Francesco II Gonzaga (1466-1519). This puts this painting, and the rather young woman sitter right at the very last days of Isabella's life. Moreover, the painter's last name rings familiar to French, not Italian. And if he did such notable sitters, why does this painter not exist historically in his own right? He must've seriously annoyed someone to have been this well erased from history. Having read over the history of the mantova ducale, it mentions that a good portion of the paintings they have are not at all related to the history of the palace since Vincenzo II spent Mantua into oblivion. Now that I found the Isabella connection, it is indeed related, it just took several hours of
[h-cost] Re: Have you seen this painting?
Someone on another list just presented a really compelling comparison: http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/diary/images/bronzino.jpg http://www.asn-ibk.ac.at/bildung/faecher/geschichte/maike/treffpunkt/buch2-96.htm It supports the opinion that my version is a later copy, but they have misdated it, if they have. The details have been exaggerated it would appear if this is true. One of these paintings is by Alessandro Allori apparently. I've seen it attributed to Bronzino as well. I'm gonna throw a reallly wild thought out there : would the A in the Jean Bahuet attribution have some relevance?! Doubtful, frankly. I think trying to unearth who this Bahuet guy is will give me most of the answers. I did find an Alfred-Louis Bahuet Born in Paris, France, 1862 listed as a largely unknown artist, but that's it. I have him listed in a collection that has him with their Engravings, Etchings, Lithographs and ÂPrints. There is another one though. http://www.comanducci.it/english/Risultati.asp?Ricerca=bahuet Also shows a Jeannin Bahuet, in the 16th century. Okay, my head is spinnning. time to go have a shower and go see Narnia with my daughter. :-) Kathy Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
