[h-cost] fiber arts and making vs buying clothes

[Stephanie Smith]

Fran wrote:
"The whole modern wearable art movement is an
outgrowth of DIY hippie crafts.  I'm hoping to see the
DIY aspects, the loving-hands-at-home experiments,
revived as a foundation for a new generation of fiber
artists."

I reply:
Huh.  My first encounters with fiber-arts came with my
grandmother (now 79); I doubt she'd enjoy being called
a hippie (but i won't tell) ;-)  

Good to know that's where/when/how working with
textiles and fiber went from something one did if you
were too poor to buy you clothes to something one did
as an artform :-)  When did "off the rack" clothes
become THE WAY to go, as opposed to just being what
people who couldn't afford to have clothes made for
them wore?

Stephanie



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Re: [h-cost] One last important message

[Wendy Colbert]

Penny,
Both CMU and PITT, in Pittsburgh, PA have also made the same offer. BOth have 
Theatre departments.
Wendy
Proud grad of the PITT theatre program

-Original Message-
From: Penny Ladnier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sep 3, 2005 12:04 AM
To: h-costume <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [h-cost] One last important message

This is so wonderful!  I just received this message and please pass it on:

Midwestern State University, Wichita Falls, Texas, http://www.mwsu.edu/  is 
opening its doors to students who now have no university for the fall because 
of the hurricane.  If you know of university students who are in need of 
temporary (or permanent) university education because
their school has been closed for the fall semester, (or longer) due to 
Hurricane Katrina, they can contact Barbara Merkle at 1-800-842-1922 or 
940-397-4328.  They will admit students late, and will charge in-state tuition. 
 We need to be contacted by September 13th.  Housing will be available.

They have a theater department.

Bless their hearts for being so thoughtful!  Texas sure does have a big heart 
and is a good neighbor!

Penny E. Ladnier
Owner,
The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com
Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com
Costume Research Library, www.costumelibrary.com
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Re: [h-cost] fiber arts and making vs buying clothes

[Carolyn Kayta Barrows]

When did "off the rack" clothes
become THE WAY to go, as opposed to just being what
people who couldn't afford to have clothes made for
them wore?


Probably as soon as they became plentiful and cheap.


   CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
 www.FunStuft.com

  \\\
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      7 )))
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   )   ((
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[h-cost] collages and hurricane relief

[JAMES OGILVIE]

Another generous offer:  
http://www.mercyhurst.edu/ne/college_news_detail.php?id=777&m=9&y=2005 
although I'm confused as to whether the tri-state area they are referring to is 
the tri-state area around Erie or the tri-state area hit by the hurricane.

Janet
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Re: [h-cost] fiber arts and making vs buying clothes

[Dawn]

Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote:




When did "off the rack" clothes
become THE WAY to go, as opposed to just being what
people who couldn't afford to have clothes made for
them wore?



Probably as soon as they became plentiful and cheap.



Store bought clothing and household goods became a sign of affluence 
after the Depression, and again after WW2. People hid quilts under Sears 
bedspreads and only wore flour sack underwear to school on days they 
didn't have to change for gym.


The 60's and 70's hippie movement spawned re-interest in those old 
crafts, and by the 80's it was being called "art".



Dawn



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Re: [h-cost] collages and hurricane relief

[Carol Kocian]

 There are many colleges and universities offering to accept 
students from hurricane areas, so unless people are talking about 
schools with a costume/theatre/textile program, I don't think they 
all need to be sent to the list.


 -Carol
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[h-cost] Bjarne

[Lalah]

I  know  this  isn't  costume  related  and I am not one of the
popular   people  on  this  list,  but  I  just  couldn't  keep
quiet.  The  message  Bjarne  sent  sounded  like  he  was more
surprised  than  critical,  and  give the guy credit - he writes
better English than most of us do Danish.  I wish I could speak
any  other language as well as he does.  I know that many of us
have  family or  dear friends in the areas hit and are a bit on
edge right now, but it isn't fair to take it out on someone who
was  making  an  honest  mistake.   People the world over think
that we  in the United States are all rich - if you watch TV at
all  you will understand why.  I do believe he was trying to be
sympathetic  and now  he  is just being quiet while he is being
blasted.

I,  for  one,  admire his attempts at English and his wonderful
handwork and costuming.  I would sorely miss him if he left the
list.

Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender


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[h-cost] Eras and places (was hippies)

[Carol Kocian]

Carolyn said,
Berkeley, CA, and the 1960s.  You see aging Hippies, and ones whose 
parents were barely born in the 1960s, on the streets in Berkeley, 
CA, even today.


 I have an "ageing" hippie next door who just turned 40. :-)  Do 
you think, though, that the hippie styles in Berkeley are only due to 
the area, or because kids like the style again?  Maybe a bit of both? 
I agree, though that the hippie look says Berkeley or Haight Ashbury. 
(Is that in Berkeley?)  Or Woodstock, which is not close at all. :-)


 Goth styles are all over the place, particularly at night in 
cities.  Or game conventions where they play Vampire.


 Hoopskirts evoke many places in the south east US - New Orleans, 
Atlanta, Mobile.  I was thinking of the style that defines a specific 
city or area - black & white pilgrim/puritan is Massachussets and not 
anywhere else.  Except, of course, Dutch paintings.


 Bustle gowns make me think of the midwest, I suppose due to the 
amount of growth during that era and I've seen a few houses that have 
them in their collection.   But those era houses are all over the 
place.


 And to extend this discussion to the rest of the world, late 
1500s/early 1600s is London due to Elizabeth.


 -Carol
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Re: [h-cost] Bjarne

[Chris]

I second that and Thank You Lalah for wording it so much better than I would 
have/could have.  
 
I can NOT imagine Bjarne ever being rude and I realize we've never met nor 
probably ever will, but his whole demeanor online has always been respectful 
IMHO.
 
Christine Gallucci

Lalah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I know this isn't costume related and I am not one of the
popular people on this list, but I just couldn't keep
quiet. The message Bjarne sent sounded like he was more
surprised than critical, and give the guy credit - he writes
better English than most of us do Danish. I wish I could speak
any other language as well as he does. I know that many of us
have family or dear friends in the areas hit and are a bit on
edge right now, but it isn't fair to take it out on someone who
was making an honest mistake. People the world over think
that we in the United States are all rich - if you watch TV at
all you will understand why. I do believe he was trying to be
sympathetic and now he is just being quiet while he is being
blasted.

I, for one, admire his attempts at English and his wonderful
handwork and costuming. I would sorely miss him if he left the
list.

Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender


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Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't 
matter and those who matter don't mind.
  Dr. Seuss
 
Our greatest glory is not in never failing, 
but in rising up every time we fail. 
Ralph Waldo Emerson




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Re: [h-cost] Eras and places (was hippies)

[J Schueller]

On the topic of the south and hoop skirts  Were the hoop skirts 
popular later in the south then the north?  I mean, our (ok, mine and I 
am a typical yankee) picture of "THE SOUTH" is alweays with ladies in 
hoops, but I would assume that the north had just as many ladies wearing 
hoops at the same time.


jordana


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RE: [h-cost] Eras and places (was hippies)

[Carolann Schmitt]

I did some extensive research on mid-19th century skirt supports (corded
petticoats, cage and covered crinolines, etc.) for a presentation last year.
Based on manufacturing and sales records, crinolines were widely available
and worn anywhere in the country, including the far west. This is amply
supported by original photographs, extant crinolines, and commentary in
period magazines, newspapers, letters and journals. The average retail price
for a crinoline c. 1855-1865 was $0.25-$2.00 each, depending on the overall
style and the number of steels. 

Documentation indicates that the style spread quite rapidly across the
country - within a few months at most.  

Carolann Schmitt
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.genteelarts.com
Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 2-5, 2006




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Re: [h-cost] Eras and places (was hippies)

[Carol Kocian]

Jordana said,
On the topic of the south and hoop skirts  Were the hoop skirts 
popular later in the south then the north?  I mean, our (ok, mine 
and I am a typical yankee) picture of "THE SOUTH" is alweays with 
ladies in hoops, but I would assume that the north had just as many 
ladies wearing hoops at the same time.


 Perhaps we have Scarlett O'Hara to thank for the hoopskirts, 
especially the barer evening dress worn at the picnic. :-)


 The American Civil War marked a great change for the south, and 
therefore an era greatly identified with the region.


 When I think of the real daytime wear, the buttoned up hooped 
gowns in the sepia toned portraits, I think of Gettysburg, PA. 
That's probably because it's near me and I've done reenactments 
there, so it's strictly personal.


 But the fluffy pastel colored ballgowns - that's the south.

 -Carol
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[h-cost] regional crinoline fashions

[Carolann Schmitt]

I disagree. For every extant pastel colored ballgown *documented* to the
South, I can show you one documented to the North, or the Midwest, or the
West, or Canada, or Europe. And I can do the same for every "buttoned up"
dress documented to the North or any other region of the country. There are
some regional differences in style, but they are minor elements of the
overall fashion and stem more frequently from local customs and availability
than a "if this is pale pink it must be Mississippi" trend.

One of the most stunning original dresses I've seen is in the collection of
the Cincinnati Art Museum: a bright sapphire blue silk taffeta woven a
disposition, originally from Gettysburg, PA. 

Carolann Schmitt, Life-long Gettysburgian
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.genteelarts.com
Ladies and Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 2-5, 2006




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Re: [h-cost] collages and hurricane relief

[Althea Turner]

Oregon State University is also taking in hurricane displaced  
students.  We have both a theater and textiles program.  It's a great  
place to live, but I'm tremendously biased.  :D


Althea


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Re: [h-cost] collages and hurricane relief

[Susan B. Farmer]

The University of Tennessee is as well -- and they also have a theatre
Department.  In fact, as of Tuesday, my department will have a Tulane
grad Student for at least the semester.

Susan
-
Susan Farmer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/


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Re: [h-cost] Bjarne

[ruthanneb]

May I echo Chris and Lalah, and further suggest (in the great American 
tradition of free speech) that anyone who has shared hundreds of pieces of 
useful costume information and dozens of beautiful and inspiring pictures of 
finished costumes and works-in-progress can be considered to have earned the 
right to express one political opinion a year on this list.

I haven't earned that right yet, but would be delighted to discuss politics 
off-list any time!

Meanwhile, thank you, Bjarne, for your concern for the people in this country.

And my own deepest sympathy for those affected by this disaster, both those in 
Katrina's zone and their loved ones and associates.

Ruth Anne Baumgartner
gypsy scholar and amateur costumer

-Original Message-
From: Chris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sep 3, 2005 9:56 AM
To: Historical Costume <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bjarne

I second that and Thank You Lalah for wording it so much better than I would 
have/could have.  
 
I can NOT imagine Bjarne ever being rude and I realize we've never met nor 
probably ever will, but his whole demeanor online has always been respectful 
IMHO.
 
Christine Gallucci

Lalah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I know this isn't costume related and I am not one of the
popular people on this list, but I just couldn't keep
quiet. The message Bjarne sent sounded like he was more
surprised than critical, and give the guy credit - he writes
better English than most of us do Danish. I wish I could speak
any other language as well as he does. I know that many of us
have family or dear friends in the areas hit and are a bit on
edge right now, but it isn't fair to take it out on someone who
was making an honest mistake. People the world over think
that we in the United States are all rich - if you watch TV at
all you will understand why. I do believe he was trying to be
sympathetic and now he is just being quiet while he is being
blasted.

I, for one, admire his attempts at English and his wonderful
handwork and costuming. I would sorely miss him if he left the
list.

Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender


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matter and those who matter don't mind.
  Dr. Seuss
 
Our greatest glory is not in never failing, 
but in rising up every time we fail. 
Ralph Waldo Emerson




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Re: [h-cost] Bjarne

[Susan B. Farmer]

Quoting Chris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

I second that and Thank You Lalah for wording it so much better than 
I would have/could have.


I can NOT imagine Bjarne ever being rude and I realize we've never 
met nor probably ever will, but his whole demeanor online has always 
been respectful IMHO.




IWhile I normally don't like the "Me Too" posts, I have to add my "me
too" to this.  Often, Bjarne's work is a calm oasis in this hectic life
that we lead.

Susan who has heard similar comments from new foreign students this week
-- and nobody was being critical, just surprised.
-
Susan Farmer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/


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Re: [h-cost] fiber arts and making vs buying clothes

[Lavolta Press]

Off-the-rack clothes became THE WAY to go in the 1920s.  Problem was, 
during the depression of the 1930s and the war rationing and shortages 
of the 1940s, a great many people had to home sew, restyle clothing, and 
think up ways to use things like flour sacks just to get something to 
wear.  While home dressmaking was associated with economy even in the 
19th century--the small amount one would spend on a low-end dressmaker 
was still worth saving if you had a small clothes budget--economy became 
its primary association.  1950s dressmaking manuals told women they 
could make clothes that would look just like RTW, so they didn't have to 
admit they home sewed.


Then, in the late 1960s and early 1970s, there was a "counterculture" 
reaction against things manufactured by the "establishment," including 
clothing, food, and many other things.  People took up not only home 
sewing (see _The Illustrated Hassle-Free Make Your Own Clothes Book_), 
but bread baking (see the _Tassajara Bread Book_), organic gardening, 
candle making, and lots of other crafts.  The emphasis was not only on 
doing it yourself, but on _not_ imitating "plastic" ready-made clothes, 
supermarket food, etc.  Many completely inexperienced people were 
experimenting with various crafts; and inexperience, as well as a "go 
with the flow" attitude, led to many original approaches.


And by the 1980s, some people had become very skilled, in fact 
professional, at patchwork, free-form crochet, and lots of other 
things.  (The Tassajara bakery morphed into the very expensive, 
sophisticated, gourmet vegetarian restaurant Greens.)  They published 
and taught about new approaches and techniques they'd developed. 
Companies like Folkwear were founded.  Banks bought enormous fiber art 
hangings for their lobbies.  It was very hip to study "fiber arts" in 
college (not usually sewing, but weaving, spinning, crochet, embroidery, 
and such). 

The modern reenactment movement (I'm excluding things like Victorian 
costume balls and jousts when I say "modern") also, I believe, got its 
start as part of the counterculture.  The SCA started as a bunch of 
hippies who enjoyed dressing in colorful clothes and evolved  into a 
much larger organization with much more complicated goals.


While I'm greatly enjoying the modern "boho" revival (especially gypsy 
skirts; I've accumulated a largish collection), as far as I can tell it 
focuses on people buying styles, not making them.  Yes, in the 1960s and 
1970s the RTW industry eagerly jumped on the counterculture bandwagon, 
manufacturing and selling "hippie" clothes.  Still, there was a lot of 
DIY, which I don't think I'm seeing currently as a mainstream movement.


Fran
Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming
http://www.lavoltapress.com



Good to know that's where/when/how working with
textiles and fiber went from something one did if you
were too poor to buy you clothes to something one did
as an artform :-)  When did "off the rack" clothes
become THE WAY to go, as opposed to just being what
people who couldn't afford to have clothes made for
them wore?

Stephanie



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Re: [h-cost] regional crinoline fashions

[Carol Kocian]

 I was looking at the way certain eras of fashion are associated 
with an area, which is different than what people were actually 
wearing.  It's not the reality, it's what we perceive based on 
movies, popular culture, etc.


 Hippies were everywhere, but now identified with Berkeley. 
Black hats with buckles on them were not the fashion at Plymouth, 
Mass, but they're all over the souvenir shops.


 I'm imagining a "what city is this" sort of thing based on the 
historic costume icons.


 -Carol


I disagree. For every extant pastel colored ballgown *documented* to 
the South, I can show you one documented to the North, or the 
Midwest, or the West, or Canada, or Europe. And I can do the same 
for every "buttoned up" dress documented to the North or any other 
region of the country. There are some regional differences in style, 
but they are minor elements of the overall fashion and stem more 
frequently from local customs and availability than a "if this is 
pale pink it must be Mississippi" trend.


One of the most stunning original dresses I've seen is in the 
collection of the Cincinnati Art Museum: a bright sapphire blue silk 
taffeta woven a disposition, originally from Gettysburg, PA.


Carolann Schmitt, Life-long Gettysburgian
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.genteelarts.com
Ladies and Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 2-5, 2006

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[h-cost] belted houppelandes

[Kathryn Parke]

Could someone walk me through the process of belting a houppelande just below 
the bustline?  How did they keep the belts there, without having it "walk" 
itself down to the natural waistline?  Was it tacked in places, and if so, 
wouldn't that interfere with the drape?  And how were they fastened in back -- 
buckled, tied, pinned?  This is for a stage costume, "accuracy" isn't the 
primary goal (don't hate me!) -- I want that look, but I'm not sure how best to 
achieve it.

Thank you --

KP

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Re: [h-cost] belted houppelandes

[Cynthia Virtue]

Kathryn Parke wrote:


Could someone walk me through the process of belting a houppelande
just below the  bustline? How did they keep the belts there, without

> having it "walk"itself down to the natural waistline? Was it tacked
> in places, and if so, wouldn't that interfere with the drape? And
> how were they fastened in back -- buckled, tied, pinned?

All excellent questions.  And all answers that we can only guess at, 
except for the last one.


There are some illustrations which show a buckle in the back, with a 
long tail hanging down from it.  Some may have had short tails in the back.


How were they kept up there?  This is all conjecture.  You could 
definitely tack it in place while the belt and houp are on the body -- 
which would allow a way to keep all those pleats even.  You could make 
belt loops -- that's what I've done for my husband's houp.  The men's 
houp belts often seem to be at the hip, and you *know* men's belts 
wouldn't magically stay put there!


I belt my own houps tightly under the bust, and because I'm squishy, 
that works for me.  But I am not sure it would work for everyone.


There's a marvelous illustration at the USA National Gallery which shows 
a closeup of the top of a houp from 1410, which I recommend to everyone 
because it's so fascinating.  Her belt seems to float magically over the 
top of her houp.


http://www.nga.gov/collection/gallery/gg39/gg39-31.0.html

--
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

  "Such virtue hath my pen"  -Shakespeare, Sonnet 81
   "I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!"  --Cynthia Virtue
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[h-cost] making vs buying clothes

[Carol Kocian]

Fran wrote,
1950s dressmaking manuals told women they could make clothes that 
would look just like RTW, so they didn't have to admit they home 
sewed.


 I worked in a clothing store in the early 1980s (got to look at 
a lot of ready-made), and also took sewing/tailoring/design classes 
in college.  The clothing we made was far better quality than most of 
the ready-to-wear available.  I would still hear "You made that?  I 
thought you bought it!", in the sense that people expected home-made 
to look bad.  When in fact, because we were learning how to fit, we 
could see that the self-sewn clothing looked a lot better!


 Also by then I found that home sewing was more expensive than 
store-bought just for the materials.  But I would have the fit and 
quality of clothing that was otherwise unavailable to me.


 This is also apparent for reenactment clothing.  In eras of 
fitted clothing, some items that are sold off-the-rack at events do 
not look as good as something custom-made (whether by one's self or 
someone else).


 -Carol
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Re: [h-cost] regional crinoline fashions

[Lavolta Press]

BTW, my husband's answer to the question "What did hippies wear?"  is 
"dense clouds of smoke."


Fran

Carol Kocian wrote:



 I was looking at the way certain eras of fashion are associated 
with an area, which is different than what people were actually 
wearing.  It's not the reality, it's what we perceive based on movies, 
popular culture, etc.



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Re: [h-cost] New to me Eleonora of Toledo

[Diana Habra]

>
> Sorry for the cross post.
>
> I was looking for a copy of the Wedding at Cana by Allesandro Allori to
> look
> at Catherine de Medici's dress and found this instead.  Ever since I made
> my
> first "Eleonora" dress from Janet Arnold's book I have found her
> fascinating.  I know the above URL is ridiculously long but snipurl
> doesn't
> want anything to do with it.  It is a portrait of Eleonora in the
> Hermitage
> collection.  It is unlike any portrait of her that I've see, but Allori
> was
> a fosterling of Bronzino so he might have had some sittings.  The dress is
> fantastic!

Wanda,

Could you give us a "how to get there" instead?  I can't use the URL but
if you said "go to the _ website and hit the  button, etc" I could
navigate to it myself

Thanks!

Diana


>
>
> Wanda Pease/Regina Romsey
> Never attribute to malice what can as easily
> be attributed to simple social ineptness
>
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>


www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

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[h-cost] 1968 SCA views of medieval clothing

[Cynthia Virtue]

Hi H-Costume,

You may remember a few months back that I was in pursuit of a legendary
statement about how ugly real medieval clothes were said to be by folks 
teaching early SCAers how to dress.


The East Kingdom Historian was kind enough to give me a copy of:

*
"A Handbook of the Current Middle Ages" 1968, for Baycon -- this was the 
only demo at that time.


Some excerpts from the clothing section, which is about six pages long:

Please note that my tailoring instructions are not completely authentic. 
 If this offends you, there are many texts available for more accurate 
patterns. A truly authentic dress is likely to appear clumsy to the 
modern eye.


Old bedspreads, especially the sort with scalloped edges, frequently 
make fine dresses.  The ones with scalloped edges make hemming 
unnecessary and so save time in sewing.


Knit fabrics hang nicely in dresses, but tend to lose their shapes in 
banners.

**

Now, please note that one of the areas which has seen a HUGE amount of 
study in the past dozen years of the SCA has been in clothing.  I'm not 
trying to make rude fun of the writer, or the early SCA folks here, but 
it is interesting to see what was advised in those early days. Whatever 
the method, the pictures I've seen from those times (mostly courtesy of 
the West Kingdom History Project website) are charming and medieval-looking.


As far as I know, there were not any "texts available for more accurate 
patterns" despite what the writer had said -- at least, not by our 21st 
century standards -- but if some of you who were doing historical sewing 
in the 60s knew of any, please do post!


The amazing detail in the Museum of London books only came out some 
dozen years ago, propagated by devoted folks like Mistress Tangwystl 
(Heather Rose Jones) and Robin Netherton, and with it, an astonishing 
realization by the archeological community that there were re-enactment 
hobbyists who might want to buy their journals.


And then hobbyists draping fabric and trying to figure out the fabric 
tech of the Middle Ages -- not assuming that a set-in sleeve was of 
course what you did for a tunic, and so on. (Note that the writer of 
this section does say that darts and set-in sleeves are "recent" 
inventions, but the included patterns  include them anyway.)


A last detail: the writer calls a sideless surcoat a "cotehardie." These 
days, that's what we call the fitted gown which goes under a woman's 
sideless surcoat, unless we're being really precise, and then we 
clothing-wonks call it a Gothic Fitted Dress. 
  (There was another site with 
pictures, but it's offline at the moment.)


--
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

  "Such virtue hath my pen"  -Shakespeare, Sonnet 81
   "I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!"  --Cynthia Virtue
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Re: [h-cost] Good News/Storm updates

[Penny Ladnier]

Jodi,

Thank you for your help.  This has been a sad, sad, situation.  But good 
things are occurring daily.


You might want to contact your local Red Cross.  They are coordinating the 
people moving into other areas of the country.  I talked with the chair of 
our local chapter and he said they can use all the local help they can get. 
They had a crash training course.  Please give your quilt guild our heart 
felt thanks.


Penny E. Ladnier
Owner,
The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com
Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com
Costume Research Library, www.costumelibrary.com

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Re: [h-cost] Good News/Storm updates

[Penny Ladnier]

I am sorry, I thought I had sent that off-list.  My apologies.

Penny E. Ladnier
Owner,
The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com
Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com
Costume Research Library, www.costumelibrary.com

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RE: [h-cost] collages and hurricane relief

[otsisto]

Well to cover my posting of Univ. of MO. Univ. of MO, Columbia has a textile
college (Human Environment Sciences) and a theatre college. Stephens College
near by which has a major enrollment and focus with costuming and textiles
may join the ranks of assistance to students.

De
-Original Message-
  There are many colleges and universities offering to accept
students from hurricane areas, so unless people are talking about
schools with a costume/theatre/textile program, I don't think they
all need to be sent to the list.

  -Carol


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Re: [h-cost] making vs buying clothes

[WickedFrau]

I missed the first post.  What is RTW???

I used to never buy any clothing because I would always think..."I can 
make that."   But of course I rarely got around to it.  Then another 
sewing friend of mine set me straight. "Never make anything you can 
buy-only make those things that you can't buy."  Thats has been my new 
motto for several years now, and has suited me well since I spend most 
of my sewing time doing historic stuff! 

You were lucky that you learned how to fit and sew.  Most folks I know 
now only learned how to sew.  If they didn't have a pattern for it, 
forget it...and I was never taught how to adjust a pattern as a younster 
sewing.  I picked all that up much later.


Sg

Carol Kocian wrote:



Fran wrote,

1950s dressmaking manuals told women they could make clothes that 
would look just like RTW, so they didn't have to admit they home sewed.




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[h-cost] Woven a disposition? was: regional crinoline fashions

[WickedFrau]

What does this mean?
Sg



One of the most stunning original dresses I've seen is in the 
collection of the Cincinnati Art Museum: a bright sapphire blue silk 
taffeta woven a disposition, originally from Gettysburg, PA


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RE: [h-cost] New to me Eleonora of Toledo

[otsisto]

http://www.hermitagemuseum.org

click on English
go to quick search and type in A.Alessandro, click on go
scroll down to the paintings, click on "next 5-16 matches"
click on "next 17 - 28 matches".
scroll down to #25
You probably have seen this. Someone has it on their website.
Eleanor has a high collared cream dress with a light teal sleeveless
overdress that has red and gold embroidery on it.
I like this site as you can zoom in much better. Her dress is pleated w/red
and green braid holding it in place w/matching pleated sleeves. Wonderful
details.

De


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RE: [h-cost] New to me Eleonora of Toledo

[otsisto]

I'm not sure what happened but the number switched. It is now #22.

De




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Re: [h-cost] belted houppelandes

[Heather Rose Jones]

At 9:54 AM -0700 9/3/05, Kathryn Parke wrote:
Could someone walk me through the process of belting a houppelande 
just below the bustline?  How did they keep the belts there, without 
having it "walk" itself down to the natural waistline?  Was it 
tacked in places, and if so, wouldn't that interfere with the drape? 
And how were they fastened in back -- buckled, tied, pinned?  This 
is for a stage costume, "accuracy" isn't the primary goal (don't 
hate me!) -- I want that look, but I'm not sure how best to achieve 
it.


Although this isn't a style that I wear very often (except for the 
masculine version with the more natural belt-line), my experience has 
been that if your belt is wide and relatively stiff, e.g., made from 
oak-tan leather, then if you buckle it rather snugly just under the 
breasts, the lower edge will ride right around where your waist 
starts flaring to the hips.  (Women with a relatively long waist or 
narrow hips will have a different experience than me.)  If you 
remember that the fashionable silhouette of the time included a 
gently rounded belly, it seems plausible that this method may have 
been part of how it worked.


Another factor may be that if your gown fabric is relatively heavy 
(as seems to be the case from how it is depicted) and the gown is 
relatively flared (ditto), then the change in volume of fabric 
between the upper and lower edges of the belt may also help keep it 
from slipping downwards.


Heather

--
*
Heather Rose Jones
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

*
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RE: [h-cost] New to me Eleonora of Toledo

[Wanda Pease]

Pardon me if this looks patronizing.  It isn't. I am putting these down as I
try it out, hoping it works.  I should have done it this way in the first
place instead of plastering that ridiculous URL in my message (it was late -
hangs head)

Go to http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/index.html

go to Digital Collection
http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/fcgi-bin/db2www/browse.mac/category?selLang=E
nglish

Choose Paintings beside the search box. Then click Browse by Artist.  Go
down the list until you see Allori, Allesandro.  There are two pictures and
Eleonora is the lady in peacock blue with her hair very close to her head.
You can put in Allori in the Quick search box but that brings up a number of
works in other media that aren't necessarily relevant.

Regina Romsey
OL, OP, Drachenwald/East, Now Proud Resident of the Laurel Kingdom of AnTir
and the Pacific NorthWet

> Wanda,
>
> Could you give us a "how to get there" instead?  I can't use the URL but
> if you said "go to the _ website and hit the  button, etc" I could
> navigate to it myself
>
> Thanks!
>
> Diana
>
>
> >

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RE: [h-cost] Woven a disposition?

[Carolann Schmitt]

Fabrics that are woven or printed "a disposition" are designed for a
particular use or particular area in a garment, frequently along one edge of
a flounce. (Our modern border prints are a distant cousin.) They were
particularly popular during the mid-late 1850s, when the technology was at
its peak. 

In addition to printed or woven designs, they were also made with trimmings
- braids or fringe - woven into the edge of the fabric; and were often sold
with matching or coordinating plain fabric and/or other trimmins. Some were
produced with the pattern along the lengthwise edge; others had the pattern
produced crosswise.  

Here are some links to just a few examples of dresses made from these
fabrics:

http://www.bowesmuseum.org.uk/collections/image.php3?Name=Woman%27s+Dress&im
age=1989-4-3-cst-2-793.jpg

http://www.zum.de/Faecher/G/BW/Landeskunde/schwaben/schloesser/ludwigsburg/m
ode/rundgang/krinolin01.htm

http://images.vam.ac.uk/images/photo/sch/20030207/high/1089-003.jpg

http://www.mfa.org/collections/search_art.asp?recview=true&id=458194&coll_ke
ywords=dress&coll_package=0&coll_start=561


Carolann Schmitt
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.genteelarts.com
Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 2-5, 2006



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RE: [h-cost] regional crinoline fashions

[Carolann Schmitt]

My apologies - I misunderstood what you were saying. :-)

Carolann Schmitt





On Behalf Of Carol Kocian

  I was looking at the way certain eras of fashion are associated 
with an area, which is different than what people were actually 
wearing.  It's not the reality, it's what we perceive based on 
movies, popular culture, etc.

  Hippies were everywhere, but now identified with Berkeley. 
Black hats with buckles on them were not the fashion at Plymouth, 
Mass, but they're all over the souvenir shops.

  I'm imagining a "what city is this" sort of thing based on the 
historic costume icons.

  -Carol




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Re: [h-cost] making vs buying clothes

[Lavolta Press]

I'm wondering, though, if anyone on h-costume is making RTW clothes for 
the boho market, perhaps selling on eBay?  I'd think tiered crushed 
velvet gypsy skirts and tunics with bell sleeves might sell well this 
fall and winter.


Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com



 This is also apparent for reenactment clothing.  In eras of 
fitted clothing, some items that are sold off-the-rack at events do 
not look as good as something custom-made (whether by one's self or 
someone else).




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[h-cost] Good News/Storm updates

[Jodi Nelson]

Penny,
 
I am so glad to hear of the wonderful progress being made in the areas your 
family is near. I cried as I read each post and showed my DH the photos you 
shared. I am still offering any help you feel is needed for your family 
personally, as I have donated for the general relief.A local quilt guild I am a 
member of was discussing how to help. We have decided to make quilts for those 
who will be relocating to Utah {I live in St.George; Utah's "Dixie"}as they 
will not be prepared for a Salt Lake City snowy winter.
 
Jodi  


-
 Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
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Re: [h-cost] making vs buying clothes

[Dawn]

Lavolta Press wrote:

I'm wondering, though, if anyone on h-costume is making RTW clothes for 
the boho market, perhaps selling on eBay?  I'd think tiered crushed 
velvet gypsy skirts and tunics with bell sleeves might sell well this 
fall and winter.



I can't compete with China, unfortunately. The RTW being imported is 
selling for less than my cost of materials.



Dawn


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Re: [h-cost] making vs buying clothes

[Lavolta Press]

RTW=Ready-to-wear.

I've pretty much quit making modern fashion clothes.  My motto is, as 
well as making what I can't buy, to only buy things that I find 
interesting, as a process, to make.  So I do almost exclusively historic 
clothes now . . . and, since I'm short, a lot of alterations of modern RTW.


Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

WickedFrau wrote:


I missed the first post.  What is RTW???

I used to never buy any clothing because I would always think..."I can 
make that."   But of course I rarely got around to it.  Then another 
sewing friend of mine set me straight. "Never make anything you can 
buy-only make those things that you can't buy."  Thats has been my new 
motto for several years now, and has suited me well since I spend most 
of my sewing time doing historic stuff!



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Re: [h-cost] Woven a disposition? was: regional crinoline fashions

[Lavolta Press]

A disposition means with a pattern printed or woven in, to be arranged a 
certain way when making the garment.  For example, you can get modern 
"border" fabrics, with a special border intended to be used at the 
bottom of a skirt.


Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com


WickedFrau wrote:


What does this mean?
Sg



One of the most stunning original dresses I've seen is in the 
collection of the Cincinnati Art Museum: a bright sapphire blue silk 
taffeta woven a disposition, originally from Gettysburg, PA




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Re: [h-cost] making vs buying clothes

[Lavolta Press]

It can be really amazing.  I've been buying cotton gauze skirts from a 
Thai seller whose eBay ID is aonneo.  He (or she? I can't figure out the 
gender from the name) sells them for as low as $8 apiece, never more 
than $15.  It depends on the skirt style and how well the auctions are 
going.  Shipping is very reasonable too, less than I've paid many eBay 
sellers for shipping within the US.  And fast, and efficient.


BUT, those are all thin cotton skirts . . . and I'm looking for velvet 
for fall/winter.


Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

Dawn wrote:


Lavolta Press wrote:

I'm wondering, though, if anyone on h-costume is making RTW clothes 
for the boho market, perhaps selling on eBay?  I'd think tiered 
crushed velvet gypsy skirts and tunics with bell sleeves might sell 
well this fall and winter.




I can't compete with China, unfortunately. The RTW being imported is 
selling for less than my cost of materials.



Dawn


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Re: [h-cost] 1968 SCA views of medieval clothing

[Carolyn Kayta Barrows]

As far as I know, there were not any "texts available for more accurate 
patterns" despite what the writer had said -- at least, not by our 21st 
century standards -- but if some of you who were doing historical sewing 
in the 60s knew of any, please do post!


Hill and Bucknell's The Evolution of Fashion was published in 1969.  It was 
intended for theatrical use rather than strict historical recreation, but 
at least it came with patterns.  I joined the SCA in 1971 and was an 
anomaly because I already owned Davenport's costume book and tried to 
recreate costumes from in there.



   CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
 www.FunStuft.com

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Re: [h-cost] Eras and places (was hippies)

[Carolyn Kayta Barrows]

Kayta said,
Berkeley, CA, and the 1960s.  You see aging Hippies, and ones whose 
parents were barely born in the 1960s, on the streets in Berkeley, CA, 
even today.


 I have an "ageing" hippie next door who just turned 40. :-)  Do you 
think, though, that the hippie styles in Berkeley are only due to the 
area, or because kids like the style again?  Maybe a bit of both? I 
agree, though that the hippie look says Berkeley or Haight Ashbury. (Is 
that in Berkeley?)  Or Woodstock, which is not close at all. :-)


Haight Ashbury (or "the Haight") is the name of the area around the 
intersection of Haight Street and Ashbury Street in San Francisco.  In my 
sartorial opinion, people today are more likely to wear Hippie clothes in 
Berkeley than in San Francisco, even people too young to have been Hippies 
the first time.  In the San Francisco Bay Area, Hippie clothes say Berkeley 
rather than San Francisco, to the locals.


The Haight Ashbury neighborhood has moved on beyond Hippie things, mostly, 
and is a mixture of gentrification and modern street kids.  A mile downhill 
on Haight Street ("the Lower Haight"), things are more Hippie-like and more 
young-artist driven.  Telegraph Avenue in Berkeley, a street dead-ending at 
the U.C.Berkeley campus, is another mix of gentrification and modern young 
people, but there's a daily street fair of sidewalk crafts booths that adds 
a distinct Hippie flavor to the area.  More than one of these booths sells 
tie-dye shirts and other tie-dye items.  A few sell bead jewelry.



   CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
 www.FunStuft.com

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Re: [h-cost] fiber arts and making vs buying clothes

[Carolyn Kayta Barrows]

1950s dressmaking manuals told women they could make clothes that would 
look just like RTW, so they didn't have to admit they home sewed.


It was a big day in my brother's life when he stopped letting my mother sew 
his shirts for him.  That was about 1964.


Then, in the late 1960s and early 1970s, there was a "counterculture" 
reaction against things manufactured by the "establishment," including 
clothing, food, and many other things.  People took up not only home 
sewing (see _The Illustrated Hassle-Free Make Your Own Clothes Book_), but 
bread baking (see the _Tassajara Bread Book_), organic gardening, candle 
making, and lots of other crafts.  The emphasis was not only on doing it 
yourself, but on _not_ imitating "plastic" ready-made clothes, supermarket 
food, etc.  Many completely inexperienced people were experimenting with 
various crafts; and inexperience, as well as a "go with the flow" 
attitude, led to many original approaches.


That's when Hippies started embroidering their blue jeans and wearing 
ethnic garments.


And by the 1980s, some people had become very skilled, in fact 
professional, at patchwork, free-form crochet, and lots of other 
things.  (The Tassajara bakery morphed into the very expensive, 
sophisticated, gourmet vegetarian restaurant Greens.)  They published and 
taught about new approaches and techniques they'd developed. Companies 
like Folkwear were founded.  Banks bought enormous fiber art hangings for 
their lobbies.  It was very hip to study "fiber arts" in college (not 
usually sewing, but weaving, spinning, crochet, embroidery, and such).


You must live in Northern CA.

The modern reenactment movement (I'm excluding things like Victorian 
costume balls and jousts when I say "modern") also, I believe, got its 
start as part of the counterculture.  The SCA started as a bunch of 
hippies who enjoyed dressing in colorful clothes and evolved  into a much 
larger organization with much more complicated goals.


Ren. Faires started in the early 1960s, and their founder coined the term 
"living history".


Still, there was a lot of DIY, which I don't think I'm seeing currently as 
a mainstream movement.


"Wearable art", while not being exactly mainstream is at least 
common.  Places like Michael's craft stores carry supplies for making 
wearable art, and a few kits for the same.



   CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
 www.FunStuft.com

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RE: [h-cost] Eras and places (was hippies)

[Carolyn Kayta Barrows]

I did some extensive research on mid-19th century skirt supports (corded
petticoats, cage and covered crinolines, etc.) for a presentation last year.
Based on manufacturing and sales records, crinolines were widely available
and worn anywhere in the country, including the far west. This is amply
supported by original photographs, extant crinolines, and commentary in
period magazines, newspapers, letters and journals. The average retail price
for a crinoline c. 1855-1865 was $0.25-$2.00 each, depending on the overall
style and the number of steels.

Documentation indicates that the style spread quite rapidly across the
country - within a few months at most.


Our Gold Rush started in 1849.  In the circular-skirt-support period there 
were substantially fewer women in California, per capita, than in other 
parts of the country.  So fewer circular-skirt-supports were being 
worn.  (This includes Chinese and Hispanic women, who were also few and far 
between, and much less likely to wear circular-skirt-supports 
anyway.)  Circular-skirt-supports were less common because women were less 
common.  As the years went by more women arrived, increasing their 
percentage of the population.  But by like 1870 very few, if any, women 
were still wearing circular-skirt-supports.  My point being that women in 
hoop skirts never became part of the Gold Rush image.  Men wearing Levis 
did, to the extent that there's one on the California State Seal.


   CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
 www.FunStuft.com

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Re: [h-cost] colleges and hurricane relief

[Penny Ladnier]

Carol,

I am compiling a listing of college with theater and fashion related that 
are accepting students.  I am looking for the schools to fill in specific 
information that a student would need to know.  I will be posting the 
listing to my site early in the week.  I am asking each school listing to 
have a contact person who can co-ordinate the transfer. The last thing these 
students need is to play telephone tag and go through miles of red tape.


If you all sincerely want to help with this project, please contact me 
off-list.  The transferring students will need people to pick them up at 
airports, help find houses, etc.  We hope to be co-coordinating with the Red 
Cross.


Penny E. Ladnier
Owner,
The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com
Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com
Costume Research Library, www.costumelibrary.com

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Re: [h-cost] fiber arts and making vs buying clothes

[Lavolta Press]

My grandmother used to make hippie crocheted vests and such for my 
cousin Donna (who is some years older than I am).  Donna was obsessed 
with clothes, but never sewed (her mother made all her enormous 
wardrobe) or crocheted (my grandmother did that).


Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com


I reply:
Huh.  My first encounters with fiber-arts came with my
grandmother (now 79); I doubt she'd enjoy being called
a hippie (but i won't tell) ;-)  



 


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Re: [h-cost] making vs buying clothes

[Jacqueline Johnson]

Read To Wear. I make a lot of my own clothes. In fact I'm getting to make a 
wiggle dress. A lot of people in the goth and FrUiTs movement do their own 
clothes. DIY clothing is really making a heavy duty stand. I just wrote a 
really short blurb on it for my own zine I produce.

Bice

On 9/3/05, WickedFrau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> I missed the first post. What is RTW???
> 
> I used to never buy any clothing because I would always think..."I can
> make that." But of course I rarely got around to it. Then another
> sewing friend of mine set me straight. "Never make anything you can
> buy-only make those things that you can't buy." Thats has been my new
> motto for several years now, and has suited me well since I spend most
> of my sewing time doing historic stuff!
> 
> You were lucky that you learned how to fit and sew. Most folks I know
> now only learned how to sew. If they didn't have a pattern for it,
> forget it...and I was never taught how to adjust a pattern as a younster
> sewing. I picked all that up much later.
> 
> Sg
>
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Re: [h-cost] belted houppelandes

[Robin Netherton]

On Sat, 3 Sep 2005, Kathryn Parke wrote:

> Could someone walk me through the process of belting a houppelande
> just below the bustline?  How did they keep the belts there, without
> having it "walk" itself down to the natural waistline?

In addition to the good advice already given, I've found it's essential to
be wearing an underdress that provides the right lift to the bust (meaning
high, contained, and stable). That way you don't have the pressure from
the bust pressing down on the belt, and you don't get any unattractive
flop of the bust over the belt. The belt's job is not to raise the bust,
but simply to contain the folds of the houppelande. Alas, I've seen many
people who think that if the houppelande covers everything, they can get
away without the underdress. It's not a pretty sight.

--Robin

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Re: [h-cost] 1968 SCA views of medieval clothing

[Lavolta Press]

Norris's books were all under heavy pirated/photocopy circulation in the 
SCA for many years. Norah Waugh's books "start" a bit past SCA period 
but were all originally published from the mid 1960s to 1970. Janet 
Arnold's _/Patterns of Fashion 1: Englishwomen's Dresses and Their 
Construction 1660–1860_ also "starts" past SCA period but was published 
in the early 1970s. Despite the "late" dates, all Waugh's books and the 
Arnold one I mentioned were popular with "serious" SCA costumers from 
fairly early on. //Karl Kohler's _A History of Costume_ (with patterns) 
was first published in the 1920s and was reprinted by Dover as early as 
1963.


Whatever you think of the "authenticity" of these books, their intention 
is more "serious" than a brochure on constructing a beginning T-tunic 
just to look acceptable at events.


I've never been a member of the SCA, but I've known quite a lot of them.

Renaissance Faires, BTW, are another outgrowth of the "hippie" movement.

//Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

/




As far as I know, there were not any "texts available for more 
accurate patterns" despite what the writer had said -- at least, not 
by our 21st century standards -- but if some of you who were doing 
historical sewing in the 60s knew of any, please do post!




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Re: [h-cost] Eras and places (was hippies)

[Carolyn Kayta Barrows]

 Perhaps we have Scarlett O'Hara to thank for the hoopskirts, 
especially the barer evening dress worn at the picnic. :-)


If you mean that ruffly short-sleeved white dress, I found the historical 
image they must have taken that costume from.  It was one of the hardest 
things I ever did, shifting gears in my head to accept that one as actually 
period.



   CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
 www.FunStuft.com

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RE: [h-cost] Woven a disposition?

[Carolyn Kayta Barrows]

Fabrics that are woven or printed "a disposition" are designed for a
particular use or particular area in a garment, frequently along one edge of
a flounce. (Our modern border prints are a distant cousin.) They were
particularly popular during the mid-late 1850s, when the technology was at
its peak.


The modern equivalent of this is the "border print", printed with a design 
along one edge, for use in making skirts or curtains.  Then there are 
printed lengths of fabric intended for making things like vests or aprons, 
where all the pieces come printed on the fabric ready to cut out and 
sew.  Some Daisy Kingdom fabric is printed in such a way that you can make 
a cute little girl's dress with different parts of the printed design in 
different places.  And some saree fabric comes with an extra piece at one 
end, woven or printed to match, intended for making a choli (under-blouse).



   CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
 www.FunStuft.com

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Re: [h-cost] making vs buying clothes

[Carolyn Kayta Barrows]

BUT, those are all thin cotton skirts . . . and I'm looking for velvet for 
fall/winter.


Does it make sense to layer one of these over what would amount to a 
petticoat underneath?  The underskirt would keep you warm and the over 
skirt would look nice for both of them.  I'm not usually a skirt-wearer, so 
I don't know.



   CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
 www.FunStuft.com

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[h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 4, Issue 564

[Janet Paine]

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 12:51 PM
Subject: h-costume Digest, Vol 4, Issue 564



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Today's Topics:

  1. Bjarne (Lalah)
  2. Eras and places (was hippies) (Carol Kocian)
  3. Re: Bjarne (Chris)
  4. Re: Eras and places (was hippies) (J Schueller)
  5. RE: Eras and places (was hippies) (Carolann Schmitt)
  6. Re: Eras and places (was hippies) (Carol Kocian)
  7. regional crinoline fashions (Carolann Schmitt)
  8. Re: collages and hurricane relief (Althea Turner)
  9. Re: collages and hurricane relief (Susan B. Farmer)
 10. Re: Bjarne ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
 11. Re: Bjarne (Susan B. Farmer)
 12. Re: regional crinoline fashions (Carol Kocian)
 13. Re: fiber arts and making vs buying clothes (Lavolta Press)








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Re: [h-cost] fiber arts and making vs buying clothes

[Lavolta Press]

Ren. Faires started in the early 1960s, and their founder coined the 
term "living history".


Wasn't there some early connection with the SCA?




Still, there was a lot of DIY, which I don't think I'm seeing 
currently as a mainstream movement.



"Wearable art", while not being exactly mainstream is at least 
common.  Places like Michael's craft stores carry supplies for making 
wearable art, and a few kits for the same.



But what do you call "wearable art"?  I'd say it's something more 
avant-garde, or arty, than a nice but  mainstream hand-knitted sweater.


Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com



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Re: [h-cost] making vs buying clothes

[Lavolta Press]

I've been thinking about layering the cotton ones, yes. 

Although, as you guessed, I live in northern CA--San Francisco.  I 
believe it's been established that it was not Mark Twain who said that 
"the coldest winter he ever spent was a summer in San Francisco," 
_somebody_ clearly did.


Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com


Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote:



BUT, those are all thin cotton skirts . . . and I'm looking for 
velvet for fall/winter.



Does it make sense to layer one of these over what would amount to a 
petticoat underneath?  The underskirt would keep you warm and the over 
skirt would look nice for both of them.  I'm not usually a 
skirt-wearer, so I don't know.



   CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
 www.FunStuft.com

  \\\
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Re: [h-cost] making vs buying clothes

[Dawn]

http://snipurl.com/hf4r
$8. You couldn't buy the fabric for that little, never mind the work 
involved.


http://snipurl.com/hf4t
$24. Still a steal.



Dawn


Lavolta Press wrote:



BUT, those are all thin cotton skirts . . . and I'm looking for velvet 
for fall/winter.


Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

Dawn wrote:


Lavolta Press wrote:

I'm wondering, though, if anyone on h-costume is making RTW clothes 
for the boho market, perhaps selling on eBay?  I'd think tiered 
crushed velvet gypsy skirts and tunics with bell sleeves might sell 
well this fall and winter.





I can't compete with China, unfortunately. The RTW being imported is 
selling for less than my cost of materials.



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Re: [h-cost] fiber arts and making vs buying clothes

[Jacqueline Johnson]

I would agree. Define wearable art. The DIY movement is VERY strong and VERY 
mainstream. In particular among teenage girls. Just take a look at Etsy and 
you'll see the demographics.
http://www.etsy.com/
The most popular thing to make right now in the "reconstruct" part of DIY is 
t-shirts recounstructed to look like corsets. Some are really nice.

B.


> > "Wearable art", while not being exactly mainstream is at least
> > common. Places like Michael's craft stores carry supplies for making
> > wearable art, and a few kits for the same.
> >
> >
> But what do you call "wearable art"? I'd say it's something more
> avant-garde, or arty, than a nice but mainstream hand-knitted sweater.
> 
> Fran
> Lavolta Press
> http://www.lavoltapress.com
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [h-cost] 1968 SCA views of medieval clothing

[Cynthia Virtue]

Lavolta Press wrote:
Whatever you think of the "authenticity" of these books, their intention 
is more "serious" than a brochure on constructing a beginning T-tunic 
just to look acceptable at events.


Right you are.  Thank you!

--
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

  "Such virtue hath my pen"  -Shakespeare, Sonnet 81
   "I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!"  --Cynthia Virtue
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Re: [h-cost] making vs buying clothes

[Lavolta Press]

If you see any velvet gypsy skirts (unworn, new) that are earthtones 
rather than jewel tones, lemme know.


I agree about the price competition, but if it were something of higher 
quality (cotton velvet instead of rayon, or rayon/silk devore velvet), 
or different (interesting design and/or trimming), I personally would 
pay more.


Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

Dawn wrote:


http://snipurl.com/hf4r
$8. You couldn't buy the fabric for that little, never mind the work 
involved.


http://snipurl.com/hf4t
$24. Still a steal.


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Re: [h-cost] Bjarne

[AnnBWass]

While I know we were glad to get updates on people personally known on the  
Gulf Coast, I think this exchange just proves that politics doesn't belong on  
this list.  We went through this before, and it got kind of nasty.
 
Ann Wass
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Re: [h-cost] regional crinoline fashions

[AnnBWass]

 
In a message dated 9/3/2005 2:15:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I'm  imagining a "what city is this" sort of thing based on the 
historic  costume icons.



One of my most vivid memories of Mobile, Alabama, is the Azalea Trail  Maids, 
who wore "ante-bellum" gone wild--Big hoop-skirted dresses with rows of  tiny 
ruffles on the skirt, pantalets, big hats, parasols, and mitts, all in a  
matching color, like peach, lime green, or turquoise.  This was back in the  
early 1980s--don't know if they still dress that way. Even then, I think we all 
 
knew better.
 
Ann Wass
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Re: [h-cost] fiber arts and making vs buying clothes

[Lavolta Press]

It's pretty easy to put lace-up trimming down the front of a tank top.  
BTW, that was a "hippie" style too.  It's certainly heavily done in 
ready-to-wear for the American "junior" market.  In shopping malls and 
online catalogs, I've seen a lot of ready-to-wear "decorated" T shirts 
and tank tops.  They're often quite charming.


I would guess Goths have to make most of their Goth clothes, although 
I've seen Goth clothing for sale on the net.  In fact I bought some 
skirts that I found out are by a Goth ready-to-wear manufacturer, at 
www.artfulwears.com.


Something else about "wearable art"--to my mind it has a kind of "wild 
and wooly" aspect.  It's not a well-made but conservative hand-knitted 
sweater.  I love hand-knitted sweaters, but I don't think they're all 
wearable art. It's not a commercial T-shirt with some lace trim and/or 
appliques sewn on.  Those can be very cute, but I don't think they're 
wearable art either.  It's also not ticky-tacky-craftsy, kits-and-kitsch. 

Wearable art may or may not be related to current fashion, but it's 
experimental, and "different."  That's what makes it art.


I agree that sewing an embroidered patch on your blue jeans, as many 
people did in the late 60s and early 70s, is not wearable art either.  
But some people went further, and were more "arty."


I should add that the modern vintage clothing market, or rather the 
modern perception of it, also dates from the "hippie" movement.  To the 
generation before that, buying used clothing was something you avoided 
if possible, for its connotations of not being able to afford new, and 
even catching parasites or diseases from the previous owner.  The 
"hippie" movement siezed on vintage clothing ("reconstructed" or not) as 
a way to both find different styles and to benefit the environment by 
recycling.


Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com


Jacqueline Johnson wrote:

I would agree. Define wearable art. The DIY movement is VERY strong and VERY 
mainstream. In particular among teenage girls. Just take a look at Etsy and 
you'll see the demographics.

http://www.etsy.com/
The most popular thing to make right now in the "reconstruct" part of DIY is 
t-shirts recounstructed to look like corsets. Some are really nice.


B.


 


"Wearable art", while not being exactly mainstream is at least
common. Places like Michael's craft stores carry supplies for making
wearable art, and a few kits for the same.


 


But what do you call "wearable art"? I'd say it's something more
avant-garde, or arty, than a nice but mainstream hand-knitted sweater.

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com



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Re: [h-cost] fiber arts and making vs buying clothes

[Jacqueline Johnson]

I'm unsure if you've seen the corset t-shirts but what they are is 
essentially the body of the t-shirt intact with pieces of fabric added 
either on the front or back with grommets in. Then you lace just like a 
corset. Some are really wild others are the basic style. Also the old "add a 
skirt to the bottom of a t-shirt" is still standard. Heck I was doing that 
in HS (I was born in 72 if it says much) . Depending on what facet of goth 
you are doing you have a few great choices for clothing. If you do LBG or 
Lolita Rose and Thorn is amazing. 
http://www.angelfire.com/ab6/roseandthorn/
If you like cyber goth Lip Service has some nice pieces although I'm not 
real keen on the method of making them or their lastability.
The Gothic Lolita Bible is a must for anyone who studies modern costume or 
is in the Lolita or FrUiTs movement of clothing. Blue Period hosts scans of 
the book:
http://www.blue-period.fsnet.co.uk/egl.html
Goth Fashion Info gives simple circle skirt instruction:
http://gothfashion.info/circlepixie.html
I like Morbid Outlook's explanation of Japanese Lolita:
http://www.morbidoutlook.com/fashion/articles/2002_07_gothiclolita.html
Metamorphose Temps des Filles sells great clothes for those into GL:
http://www.metamorphose.gr.jp/english/index.html

I have more links of course. If anyone wants them just ask. To my mind if 
you've made it chances are its wearable art. Its handmade and its OOAK. You 
aren't going to run into Hot Topic or Kmart and grab it off the rack.

B~


On 9/3/05, Lavolta Press <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> It's pretty easy to put lace-up trimming down the front of a tank top.
> BTW, that was a "hippie" style too. It's certainly heavily done in
> ready-to-wear for the American "junior" market. In shopping malls and
> online catalogs, I've seen a lot of ready-to-wear "decorated" T shirts
> and tank tops. They're often quite charming.
> 
> I would guess Goths have to make most of their Goth clothes, although
> I've seen Goth clothing for sale on the net. In fact I bought some
> skirts that I found out are by a Goth ready-to-wear manufacturer, at
> www.artfulwears.com .
> 
> Something else about "wearable art"--to my mind it has a kind of "wild
> and wooly" aspect. It's not a well-made but conservative hand-knitted
> sweater. I love hand-knitted sweaters, but I don't think they're all
> wearable art. It's not a commercial T-shirt with some lace trim and/or
> appliques sewn on. Those can be very cute, but I don't think they're
> wearable art either. It's also not ticky-tacky-craftsy, kits-and-kitsch.
> 
> Wearable art may or may not be related to current fashion, but it's
> experimental, and "different." That's what makes it art.
> 
> I agree that sewing an embroidered patch on your blue jeans, as many
> people did in the late 60s and early 70s, is not wearable art either.
> But some people went further, and were more "arty."
> 
> I should add that the modern vintage clothing market, or rather the
> modern perception of it, also dates from the "hippie" movement. To the
> generation before that, buying used clothing was something you avoided
> if possible, for its connotations of not being able to afford new, and
> even catching parasites or diseases from the previous owner. The
> "hippie" movement siezed on vintage clothing ("reconstructed" or not) as
> a way to both find different styles and to benefit the environment by
> recycling.
> 
> Fran
> Lavolta Press
> http://www.lavoltapress.com
>
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Re: [h-cost] fiber arts and making vs buying clothes

[Carolyn Kayta Barrows]

Ren. Faires started in the early 1960s, and their founder coined the term 
"living history".


Wasn't there some early connection with the SCA?


Not really.  The same kind of people joined each one, but there wasn't as 
much crossover as you might think.  There's still some awkwardness to this 
day, because of different goals for the two different groups.


"Wearable art", while not being exactly mainstream is at least 
common.  Places like Michael's craft stores carry supplies for making 
wearable art, and a few kits for the same.



But what do you call "wearable art"?  I'd say it's something more 
avant-garde, or arty, than a nice but  mainstream hand-knitted sweater.


What I call wearable art and what Michael's craft stores call wearable art 
are rather different.  They call things like craft-decorated t-shirts by 
that name, when they're selling supplies for making same.  I have a little 
more highbrow definition, and would go with the more avant guarde and arty 
look.  Upscale art and wine festivals have more what I would call wearable 
art.  I also call it fiber art, which the craft stores pretty much don't.



   CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
 www.FunStuft.com

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Re: [h-cost] fiber arts and making vs buying clothes

[Lavolta Press]

I'd agree with your definition, except that I associate the term "fiber 
art" with textile arts other than sewing. Whereas, to me "wearable art" 
covers sewing, weaving, spinning, knitting, crochet, embroidery, the 
whole spectrum.  Oh, except a hanging or sculpture is fiber art, but not 
wearable. 

As for Goths, who I supect may be a rather large DIY crowd, I've never 
been tempted to become one because, as far as I can tell from the 
historic costumers I know who are also Goths, they hang out in clubs and 
listen to modern music. I can't stand modern music. Also, I look awful 
in black.  But some of the ideas on the net I've seen are really 
creative.  The Gothic Lolitas seem far too sweet and innocent to be real 
Goths though.  While, as far as I know, none of my passing Goth 
acquaintances actually drink blood, they seem pretty sophisticated.


Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress

What I call wearable art and what Michael's craft stores call wearable 
art are rather different.  They call things like craft-decorated 
t-shirts by that name, when they're selling supplies for making same.  
I have a little more highbrow definition, and would go with the more 
avant guarde and arty look.  Upscale art and wine festivals have more 
what I would call wearable art.  I also call it fiber art, which the 
craft stores pretty much don't.



 


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Re: [h-cost] fiber arts and making vs buying clothes

[Jacqueline Johnson]

I'm guessing you've never encountered the "perky goth" subset of goth then. 
A google search should give you more than a few areas to look. As for the 
Lolita's looking innocent and sweet that's the whole idea. Sweet evil and 
innocent *looking*. Then you have the harajuku girls of Gwen Stefani fame. 
Yet another division in the Goth clothing movement.
gothicauctions.comwill show a number of
DIYers who sell to others. I see a lot of square dance
dresses adapted to Lolita (that's what I use for my clothes anyhow) and 
bustle skirts in any fabric is popular. Past Patterns #904 the polonaise 
dress is HUGE for Goth DIYers. I've made one version in PVC in fact. Right 
now I'm working on a black lolita nun dress.

B

On 9/3/05, Lavolta Press <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> As for Goths, who I supect may be a rather large DIY crowd, I've never
> been tempted to become one because, as far as I can tell from the
> historic costumers I know who are also Goths, they hang out in clubs and
> listen to modern music. I can't stand modern music. Also, I look awful
> in black. But some of the ideas on the net I've seen are really
> creative. The Gothic Lolitas seem far too sweet and innocent to be real
> Goths though. While, as far as I know, none of my passing Goth
> acquaintances actually drink blood, they seem pretty sophisticated.
> 
> Fran
> Lavolta Press
>
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RE: [h-cost] New to me Eleonora of Toledo

[Diana Habra]

>
> http://www.hermitagemuseum.org
>
> click on English
> go to quick search and type in A.Alessandro, click on go
> scroll down to the paintings, click on "next 5-16 matches"
> click on "next 17 - 28 matches".
> scroll down to #25
> You probably have seen this. Someone has it on their website.
> Eleanor has a high collared cream dress with a light teal sleeveless
> overdress that has red and gold embroidery on it.
> I like this site as you can zoom in much better. Her dress is pleated
> w/red
> and green braid holding it in place w/matching pleated sleeves. Wonderful
> details.

I agree that the portrait is beautiful but I don't think it is Eleonora of
Toledo.

Firstly it doesn't really look like her and secondly, the new book that I
have entitled "Moda a Firenze 1540-1580: Lo stile di Eleonora di Toledo e
la sua influenza" has this portrait listed as "Portrait of a Woman" by
Alessandro Allori 1580-1590.  In a book about Eleonora of Toledo, I would
think that if the portrait were really of her, this book would say so.  It
is a lovely portait, though.

And there are many other portraits that I hadn't seen before that are in
the book I mention above.  It is very much worth the $100 for anyone who
is passionate about Italian Renn clothing!

Diana

www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

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Re: [h-cost] fiber arts and making vs buying clothes

[Carolyn Kayta Barrows]

I'd agree with your definition, except that I associate the term "fiber 
art" with textile arts other than sewing.


I call it art using fiber as the medium, wearable or not.  This includes 
the hanging textile sculptures, wall pieces, and some garments.


Whereas, to me "wearable art" covers sewing, weaving, spinning, knitting, 
crochet, embroidery, the whole spectrum.


Fiber art with armholes ;)

BTW, some jewelry is like wearable sculpture, and is made of metal, stone, 
etc.  I would call that wearable art too.  Then there are cross-over folks 
like Arlene Fisch who, in the 1970s, was making knitted silver wire 
jewelry.  And the chain-mail-bikini crowd - wearable, but is it art?


   CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
 www.FunStuft.com

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RE: [h-cost] New to me Eleonora of Toledo

[Wanda Pease]

It does look very different from the portraits that we are used to from
Bronzino.  The hairstyle is so tight to the head.  I just put it down to the
difference in artist's eyes.  Also, I thought that the eyes of the girl did
look much like those I'm familiar with.

I can't wait to get my hands on a copy of this book.  It's on order and I'm
waiting for them to send me the receipt to tell me how much to pay.  By the
way - how did you pay for your copy or did you get it in Italy?  I'm going
to England in two weeks and expect to get the Euro-check there.

Wanda


>
> I agree that the portrait is beautiful but I don't think it is Eleonora of
> Toledo.
>
> Firstly it doesn't really look like her and secondly, the new book that I
> have entitled "Moda a Firenze 1540-1580: Lo stile di Eleonora di Toledo e
> la sua influenza" has this portrait listed as "Portrait of a Woman" by
> Alessandro Allori 1580-1590.  In a book about Eleonora of Toledo, I would
> think that if the portrait were really of her, this book would say so.  It
> is a lovely portait, though.
>
> And there are many other portraits that I hadn't seen before that are in
> the book I mention above.  It is very much worth the $100 for anyone who
> is passionate about Italian Renn clothing!
>
> Diana
>
> www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
> "Everything for the Costumer"
>
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Re: [h-cost] New to me Eleonora of Toledo

[Dianne & Greg Stucki]

- Original Message - 
From: "Wanda Pease" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 4:28 PM
Subject: RE: [h-cost] New to me Eleonora of Toledo


Pardon me if this looks patronizing.  It isn't. I am putting these down as 
I

try it out, hoping it works.  I should have done it this way in the first
place instead of plastering that ridiculous URL in my message (it was 
late -

hangs head)

Go to http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/index.html

go to Digital Collection
http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/fcgi-bin/db2www/browse.mac/category?selLang=E
nglish

Choose Paintings beside the search box. Then click Browse by Artist.  Go
down the list until you see Allori, Allesandro.  There are two pictures 
and

Eleonora is the lady in peacock blue with her hair very close to her head.
You can put in Allori in the Quick search box but that brings up a number 
of

works in other media that aren't necessarily relevant.>>


I found it easily by searching for "Eleanor".

Dianne

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Re: [h-cost] fiber arts and making vs buying clothes

[Lavolta Press]

BTW, some jewelry is like wearable sculpture, and is made of metal, 
stone, etc.


True, and there is also fiber jewelry.

  I would call that wearable art too.  Then there are cross-over folks 
like Arlene Fisch who, in the 1970s, was making knitted silver wire 
jewelry.  And the chain-mail-bikini crowd - wearable, but is it art?


   



Dunno.  There's a sense in which, the first time someone makes it, it's 
art; but if a bunch of other people make pretty much the same thing, is 
it art anymore?


Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com
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RE: [h-cost] 1968 SCA views of medieval clothing

[otsisto]

I missed the first part of this thread but this caught my eye.
In saying

"Renaissance Faires, BTW, are another outgrowth of the "hippie" movement.
Fran"

I come to understand that you may be saying that SCA came out of the
"hippie" movement. If I am understanding correctly, I would like to say that
SCA was not an outgrowth of the hippie movement, it grew from a history club
at Berkley.
I will say that the clothing in the beginning and even today is a blend of
historic and current style. The current style usually comes from those who
are just getting started or couldn't care less about costuming and cared
more of whatever arts or sciences they be interested in.
In early SCA costuming information, books, pictures were few and far
between.
I remember when I joined in `81 a woman who had no costuming experience was
telling me that this
http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/VENETIANLADYDurer1495.jpg
was a fantasy dress. A Victorian drawing of what was thought to have been
worn.
Oh yeah, and I was told that pink wasn't period.:P

De
my .2





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Re: [h-cost] fiber arts and making vs buying clothes

[Carolyn Kayta Barrows]

  I would call that wearable art too.  Then there are cross-over folks 
like Arlene Fisch who, in the 1970s, was making knitted silver wire 
jewelry.  And the chain-mail-bikini crowd - wearable, but is it art?


Dunno.  There's a sense in which, the first time someone makes it, it's 
art; but if a bunch of other people make pretty much the same thing, is it 
art anymore?


Good question.  This brings to mind the question of whether or not a 
recreation of, say, a Worth gown is art.  Certainly it was art the first 
time, but is what we're doing also art?  And are we in the wrong century to 
be calling our work art if we're creating a gown of a new design in a 
decades-old, or centuries-old, style?  Interesting point you brought up.


   CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
 www.FunStuft.com

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Re: [h-cost] 1968 SCA views of medieval clothing

[Lavolta Press]

I come to understand that you may be saying that SCA came out of the
"hippie" movement. If I am understanding correctly, I would like to say that
SCA was not an outgrowth of the hippie movement, it grew from a history club
at Berkley.
 

I thought the fantasy author Marion Zimmer Bradley was supposed to have 
started it.


Fran


 


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RE: [h-cost] 1968 SCA views of medieval clothing

[Justine Magill]

The West Kingdom has a history page up. This link will take you to the
origins of the SCA. http://history.westkingdom.org/Year0/index.htm

There are numerous photos and such of the early days of the SCA available in
some of the sections for looking at. I browse this page every once in a
while.

Jenne




I thought the fantasy author Marion Zimmer Bradley was supposed to have
started it.

Fran


>


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Re: [h-cost] 1968 SCA views of medieval clothing

[Cynthia Virtue]

I thought the fantasy author Marion Zimmer Bradley was supposed to have 
started it.


She was part of it.  The first SCA event was a goodbye party for someone 
going off to the Peace Corps(?), in Diana Listmaker's (Paxson, I think) 
back yard.  A few months later MZB came up with the name when asked for 
a name to put down on the park reservation form.


--
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

  "Such virtue hath my pen"  -Shakespeare, Sonnet 81
   "I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!"  --Cynthia Virtue
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Re: [h-cost] fiber arts and making vs buying clothes

[Lavolta Press]

Good question.  This brings to mind the question of whether or not a 
recreation of, say, a Worth gown is art.  Certainly it was art the 
first time, but is what we're doing also art?


I'm not sure it was even art the first time.  Worth actually had a 
fairly large concern and churned out numbers of very similar garments.  
I don't see that couture is necessarily art.


And are we in the wrong century to be calling our work art if we're 
creating a gown of a new design in a decades-old, or centuries-old, 
style?  Interesting point you brought up.


 



If it's an attempt at an exact reproduction, I think not.  It may be 
beautiful, it may be well made, but that doesn't make it art. It's 
really an effort  not to be original.


When I was studying weaving and other texile arts (in parallel with 
studying clothing design in another department of the same university, 
and history in yet another department), the other students sneered at 
anything they called "yardage."  Making garments was not hip.  I was at 
variance with the general opinion because I've always wanted everything 
I made to be useful.  For example, my crochet class was taught by a 
visiting instructor, a fiber artist well known at the time.  We were all 
encouraged to attend an exhibit of her work.   I went, and was puzzled 
by her current phase, which consisted of enormous, much larger than life 
kimonos with crocheted pictures.  They were beautiful, but there was 
quite enough room on an ordinary-sized kimono for the same pictures at 
smaller scale.   But, she said, if they were wearable they wouldn't 
really be art.  Huh?


There was one student who presented, for a weaving class critique, a 
beautiful curtain, or as she called it a window hanging, in leno weave 
(which some people call "lace weave" even though it is not technically 
lace).  She said she planned to hang it in her living room window.  She 
received a lot of praise, which emboldened her to say that she actually 
had three windows in her living room and already had her loom strung to 
make two more hangings. Immediately the praise turned to condemnation.  
"Oh, that would be _yardage_."  I thought that was silly; if one piece 
is art is it really degraded by her making a mere two others?  On the 
other hand, I have to say that if she'd churned them out by the hundreds 
I might stop calling it art.


Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

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Re: [h-cost] 1968 SCA views of medieval clothing

[Lavolta Press]

It's a very counterculture idea for the mid 1960s.

Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

Cynthia Virtue wrote:



I thought the fantasy author Marion Zimmer Bradley was supposed to 
have started it.



She was part of it.  The first SCA event was a goodbye party for 
someone going off to the Peace Corps(?), in Diana Listmaker's (Paxson, 
I think) back yard.  A few months later MZB came up with the name when 
asked for a name to put down on the park reservation form.



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Re: [h-cost] 1968 SCA views of medieval clothing

[Susan Carroll-Clark]

Greetings--


I come to understand that you may be saying that SCA came out of the
"hippie" movement. If I am understanding correctly, I would like to say 
that
SCA was not an outgrowth of the hippie movement, it grew from a history 
club

at Berkley.

I thought the fantasy author Marion Zimmer Bradley was supposed to have 
started it.


It's my understanding that a little of each of these last two are true.  (As 
for the hippie connection, there's often an assumption that anyone at 
Berkley in the late 60s must have been a hippie, but that's not necessarily 
true.  I suspect that hippie-ness, like most things, existed on a spectrum).


As I understand it, there was a group of friends at Berkley.  Some were into 
history, some into Tolkein, some into early music, and some into various 
combinations thereof.  So you had that interesting mix of ideas right from 
the beginning.   MZB was definitely part of the original group, but she 
didn't "start" it.  I don't think any one person can claim credit.


Susan 


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[h-cost] I don't know art but I know what I like

[Carol Kocian]

And the chain-mail-bikini crowd - wearable, but is it art?


 I was an early adaptor - does mine get to be art?  I think the 
idea of a chainmail bikini was around for a bit before somebody 
decided to try making one.


 So there's a crowd now?  My invitation must have gotten lost. :-(

 A few years back, some historic site or organization was trying 
to put together a directory of people who would make historic 
clothes.  I think it was for 18th century.  Anyway, on the 
questionaire, one of the questions was "Do you design historic 
clothing?"


 In my opinion, it's already designed, just needs to be 
researched and put together with the appropriate accessories.  But 
some people consider patternmaking to be designing.  If I copy a 
pattern out of Janet Arnold ad adapt it to fit, some would say that's 
designing, but I think it's adaptation.


 The wearing of a costume, attitude, posture and staying in 
character, is a performance art in itself.


 Here is another thought - if the outfit is upper class, in 
beautiful silk with the perfect trimming, people will say "art". 
What about the perfect lower-class outfit, with coarse fabric and the 
wear that comes with actual use - is that as much "art" as the upper 
class dress?


 -Carol
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RE: [h-cost] 1968 SCA views of medieval clothing

[Anne Moeller]

Is the West Kingdom History website available for general viewing?  Anyone
have the address?

Anne

the method, the pictures I've seen from those times (mostly courtesy of 
the West Kingdom History Project website) are charming and medieval-looking.


-- 
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Re: [h-cost] 1968 SCA views of medieval clothing

[Sylvia Rognstad]

On Sep 3, 2005, at 7:06 PM, Susan Carroll-Clark wrote:



It's my understanding that a little of each of these last two are 
true.  (As for the hippie connection, there's often an assumption that 
anyone at Berkley in the late 60s must have been a hippie, but that's 
not necessarily true.  I suspect that hippie-ness, like most things, 
existed on a spectrum).





As someone who lived in Berkeley and went to UC back in the late 
sixties, I can attest to the fact that not everyone there was or 
dressed like a hippie, but it was probably a much higher percentage of 
the population than existed in the mainstream US.  There certainly was 
a spectrum.  I liked to dress like a hippie back then, but I don't 
think I was a true hippie, if there really was such an animal.  I 
lived pretty much on the fringes of both hippiedom and the radical 
political movements that flourished in Berkeley.Never the less, I 
think it was my impression at the time that much more of the US lived 
and believed as we did in Berkeley, since I am still surprised to this 
day, when I meet contemporaries of mine who grew up in other areas of 
the country, such as the midwest, and were totally even unaware of 
what was going on in places like the CA Bay Area.


Sylrog

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Re: [h-cost] 1968 SCA views of medieval clothing

[Lavolta Press]

Absolutely.  But the San Franciso Bay Area really was different from 
much of the rest of the country.  Many people considered to be 
"straight" there in the 1960s would have been considered hippies, and/or 
flaming political radicals, in much of the rest of the US.  In much of 
the rest of the US, all you had to do to be considered a "hippie" was 
wear frayed bellbottom jeans in public, and/or be a male with long hair 
and/or a beard.


Take my husband, who grew up in Berkeley and got his BA at UC Berkeley.  
He was a (punch) card-carrying nerd, computer geek, programmer-for-pay 
at 15 when hardly anyone was a programmer at that age (there were no 
personal computers).  Being a nerd was not "cool."  Nerds were always 
straight, pimply weedy guys facing what everyone else regarded as 
dismally dull futures at places like, horrors, IBM.  Just the same, he 
did the things straight teenagers and young adults were doing in 
Berkeley, which included the usual clouds of smoke in public places, 
political demonstrations on campus, enduring pepper gassing of same, 
growing a beard, and so on.


Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com



It's my understanding that a little of each of these last two are 
true.  (As for the hippie connection, there's often an assumption that 
anyone at Berkley in the late 60s must have been a hippie, but that's 
not necessarily true.  I suspect that hippie-ness, like most things, 
existed on a spectrum).




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RE: [h-cost] New to me Eleonora of Toledo

[Diana Habra]

> It does look very different from the portraits that we are used to from
> Bronzino.  The hairstyle is so tight to the head.  I just put it down to
> the
> difference in artist's eyes.  Also, I thought that the eyes of the girl
> did
> look much like those I'm familiar with.
>
> I can't wait to get my hands on a copy of this book.  It's on order and
> I'm
> waiting for them to send me the receipt to tell me how much to pay.  By
> the
> way - how did you pay for your copy or did you get it in Italy?  I'm going
> to England in two weeks and expect to get the Euro-check there.

Wanda,

I paid for it using a credit card when I ordered it through Abe Books. 
The cost was dependant on the exchange rate that day.  But with shipping I
paid about $100 for it.  And it did come from Italy

Hope that helps,

Diana

www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

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Re: [h-cost] 1968 SCA views of medieval clothing

[Carolyn Kayta Barrows]

It's my understanding that a little of each of these last two are 
true.  (As for the hippie connection, there's often an assumption that 
anyone at Berkley in the late 60s must have been a hippie, but that's not 
necessarily true.  I suspect that hippie-ness, like most things, existed 
on a spectrum).


There's a Daughters of the American Revolution chapter in Berkeley, so I'm 
assuming a spectrum ;)



   CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
 www.FunStuft.com

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Re: [h-cost] I don't know art but I know what I like

[Carolyn Kayta Barrows]

The wearing of a costume, attitude, posture and staying in character, is a 
performance art in itself.


I totally forgot about performance art.

 Here is another thought - if the outfit is upper class, in beautiful 
silk with the perfect trimming, people will say "art". What about the 
perfect lower-class outfit, with coarse fabric and the wear that comes 
with actual use - is that as much "art" as the upper class dress?


If it's in an art museum then somebody must think it's art...

   CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
 www.FunStuft.com

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Re: [h-cost] I don't know art but I know what I like

[Lavolta Press]

Yes, I'd say pattern drafting, enlarging and altering a pattern to fit, 
and designing are three (actually four) different tasks. 




 In my opinion, it's already designed, just needs to be researched 
and put together with the appropriate accessories.  But some people 
consider patternmaking to be designing.  If I copy a pattern out of 
Janet Arnold ad adapt it to fit, some would say that's designing, but 
I think it's adaptation.


 The wearing of a costume, attitude, posture and staying in 
character, is a performance art in itself.


But a different issue from the costume itself  In fact, the physical 
attitude/posture and "staying in character" by saying the right things, 
are different tasks.




 Here is another thought - if the outfit is upper class, in 
beautiful silk with the perfect trimming, people will say "art". What 
about the perfect lower-class outfit, with coarse fabric and the wear 
that comes with actual use - is that as much "art" as the upper class 
dress?


I'd say neither is necessarily art.  One is fashionable upper-class 
dress, the other is lower-class dress.


Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

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Re: [h-cost] I don't know art but I know what I like

[Lavolta Press]

If it's in an art museum then somebody must think it's art...

 



I think clothes of the past are regarded even by art museums as cultural 
and historical artifacts (as well as, or instead of being art). They are 
not necessarily chosen by the same criteria as modern artifacts.  Many 
art museums with any textile facilities would probably be delighted to 
accept any original medieval garment whatever.  Most would not be 
delighted to accept just any modern garment.  They might be delighted to 
accept a "beautiful" Victorian upper-class garment in excellent 
condition, but most would not be as happy to include a lovely, expensive 
modern upper-class garment of no historically important provenance.   
The scarcity of that type of item plays a part too.


Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com




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Re: [h-cost] 1968 SCA views of medieval clothing

[Ann Catelli]

'Sideless cotehardie' comes from Milia Davenport's
book.  
Noticed the error right before I bought the book,
because it is still one of the few books with that
many contemporary-to-the-style pictures available.

And at least some of the early fifteenth century
pictures are from re-drawings, but you have to be
wide-awake to recognize the sources.

Ann in CT

--- Cynthia Virtue wrote:
> 
> A last detail: the writer calls a sideless surcoat a
> "cotehardie." 
> 
> Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent


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RE: [h-cost] I don't know art but I know what I like

[otsisto]

-Original Message-

>And the chain-mail-bikini crowd - wearable, but is it art?

-Carol

Comment:
Sorry to bring up SCA again but this reminded me of SCA in the early
eighties when from time to time a woman showed up in a chainmail bikini and
called herself a barbarian. Most were late teens and a few older women.
Once, one of the older women  showed up to a winter event in `83(?) in a
chainmail bikini. The hall was chilly but the men found it quite warm when
she was around. To say the least the bikini was not lined, nor were the ends
of the links welded, so you could tell she was quite perky and every once in
a while snagged a hair or two or maybe three.
Having learned from experience or other people's experiences these women
started wearing the rabbit fur lined chainmail bikini.
Then when colored wire became available you got artistic patterns with the
chainmail bikini, sans the fur but lined.
Outside of the SCA I saw two men wearing  chainmail "loincloths" one was
really in good shape, the otherwell...needed more chainmail so that
there was more to leave to the imagination. Both learned the hard way about
unlined, unwelded ends of links.

De
Back to the regular schedule programs.



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Re: [h-cost] 1968 SCA views of medieval clothing

[Robert Uhl]

"Anne Moeller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> Is the West Kingdom History website available for general viewing?
> Anyone have the address?

Well,  is a decent place to start...

For those not keeping score, the SCA is possibly the longest-running
costume party in history.  What it lacks in history it makes it makes up
in enthusiasm.  And the mead is incredible:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl 
In Africa, some of the native tribes have a custom of beating the ground
with clubs and uttering spine-chilling cries.  Anthropologists call this
a form of primitive self-expression.  In the West, we call it golf.

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