RE: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
“The very leaders” of CF user groups (all of them, as you seem to imply) have not “moved away”, Aaron. You have cited one, and I’m sure you could name more. Individuals can of course go where they will, and user group leaders especially may be more inclined than most to move on because they enjoy leading folks into new and exciting areas. As one of those “very CF user group leaders” who has not left, I think I’ve done enough (both in this thread and otherwise) to convey why I think folks should have more confidence than they hear from most corners. But so be it. You can “lead a horse to water”, but you “can’t push a rope”. /charlie PS Maybe my mistaken “Adam” was a Freudian slip, which some may well recognize. From: houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Rouse Sent: Monday, August 7, 2017 12:01 PM To: houcfug@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question You really are missing the point here. They used to come out and basically "sell" a product and upcoming new versions of it. They stopped doing that for whatever reasons they had. They stopped doing that around the same time a lot more people outside the coding side of the product started getting wind of this now 10+ year old rumor the product is dead. The "non average" folks who make decisions as to what products will and will not be used start to feel this is an abandoned technology and just being milked for money until finally dies. Those folks make the decision to move to technologies that they do not hear are dead and do not feel the parent companies have abandoned. Then fast forward to present day and the communication on the product to existing customers is basically non-existent, especially if you do not read some CF blog mentioned in prior emails on this thread. The only two companies I can compare to would be Oracle and Microsoft. They do come out, feel the need for showing their faces and trying to make people aware of their products and upcoming features/changes. Sure those are much bigger companies, but they are doing basically just what Adobe used to do with us. Physically seeing someone makes a much more lasting impression. I am glad CF got their 8000 new clients or whatever that number was, but they really are doing a bad job of making long term clients feel like they should stick with the product. A great example is in this very email thread where the leader of this CF user group stated they moved their company from CF to Ruby and stated some reasons. To me that is not an overly good sign of a product being all that great when the very leaders of user groups for the product have moved away from it and make statements which seem to show them disliking Adobe. -- Admiral Aaron Rouse or Adam if you want -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/houcfug?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to houcfug+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
You really are missing the point here. They used to come out and basically "sell" a product and upcoming new versions of it. They stopped doing that for whatever reasons they had. They stopped doing that around the same time a lot more people outside the coding side of the product started getting wind of this now 10+ year old rumor the product is dead. The "non average" folks who make decisions as to what products will and will not be used start to feel this is an abandoned technology and just being milked for money until finally dies. Those folks make the decision to move to technologies that they do not hear are dead and do not feel the parent companies have abandoned. Then fast forward to present day and the communication on the product to existing customers is basically non-existent, especially if you do not read some CF blog mentioned in prior emails on this thread. The only two companies I can compare to would be Oracle and Microsoft. They do come out, feel the need for showing their faces and trying to make people aware of their products and upcoming features/changes. Sure those are much bigger companies, but they are doing basically just what Adobe used to do with us. Physically seeing someone makes a much more lasting impression. I am glad CF got their 8000 new clients or whatever that number was, but they really are doing a bad job of making long term clients feel like they should stick with the product. A great example is in this very email thread where the leader of this CF user group stated they moved their company from CF to Ruby and stated some reasons. To me that is not an overly good sign of a product being all that great when the very leaders of user groups for the product have moved away from it and make statements which seem to show them disliking Adobe. -- Admiral Aaron Rouse or Adam if you want On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 11:02 AM, charlie arehart wrote: > Oh Adam, please don’t do that. I was not saying your company is “average”, > and I’m certainly not speaking for Adobe, so don’t turn this into an > assertion that THEY think you are, either. I was speaking in generalities, > as I hope anyone else reading along understood. > > And indeed, I added that if software sales folks DO come around “it’s > generally at a level where many of us ‘regular folks’ wouldn’t be > involved”. Also, it seems these days that even enterprise software sales > are more about phone calls and online meetings, so even less typical that > one would actually “see a vendor coming around”. > > You may feel differently, and fair enough. I was just trying to offer some > counterpoints for the discussion, about whether this is indeed more “signs > of the apocalypse” regarding CF or not. I don’t see it that way, but I > realize that even what I say may not sway some. Hey, it’s just conversation > around the water cooler. > > But that’s the second comment you’ve made in a row where I can’t tell if > you’re saying these things as some sort of swipe at me. I don’t know that > we ever had any beef—I certainly don’t recall any. If you want to tell me > about something, feel free either directly or to the group. If I’m > misreading you, feel free to set me straight there also. I’m just trying to > help, not stir up any trouble. > > /charlie > > > > *From:* houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Aaron Rouse > *Sent:* Monday, August 7, 2017 06:36 AM > *To:* houcfug@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question > > > > > > Well Oracle and Microsoft certainly take the time to come out and meet us > still, I guess we are not an "average customer" to them. Adobe used to do > this, at least once a year with us if not more often than that, good to > know we are just "average" now in their eyes, but then again I think we > long since figured that out anyway. > > > > -- > > Admiral Aaron Rouse > > > > On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 7:38 PM, charlie arehart < > charlie_li...@carehart.org> wrote: > > I don’t know if you’re saying that in jest, Aaron, but I would have been > that “certain Charlie”. :-) > > Yep, I worked for New Atlanta from 2003-2006 (hard to believe it’s been > over 10 years since I left). And yep, as we were needing to persuade people > about the value it brought (especially for .NET deployment of CFML, when > that was—and still is—compelling to some transitioning to ASP.NET), we did > have me traveling around to user groups and key clients/prospects, and I do > believe I spoke at the houcfug. :-) > > But back to the “don’t see Adobe coming around”, that is another one where > I would say I rarely have seen most companies really selling their product > to the average customer, or if they do it’s general
RE: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
Oh Adam, please don’t do that. I was not saying your company is “average”, and I’m certainly not speaking for Adobe, so don’t turn this into an assertion that THEY think you are, either. I was speaking in generalities, as I hope anyone else reading along understood. And indeed, I added that if software sales folks DO come around “it’s generally at a level where many of us ‘regular folks’ wouldn’t be involved”. Also, it seems these days that even enterprise software sales are more about phone calls and online meetings, so even less typical that one would actually “see a vendor coming around”. You may feel differently, and fair enough. I was just trying to offer some counterpoints for the discussion, about whether this is indeed more “signs of the apocalypse” regarding CF or not. I don’t see it that way, but I realize that even what I say may not sway some. Hey, it’s just conversation around the water cooler. But that’s the second comment you’ve made in a row where I can’t tell if you’re saying these things as some sort of swipe at me. I don’t know that we ever had any beef—I certainly don’t recall any. If you want to tell me about something, feel free either directly or to the group. If I’m misreading you, feel free to set me straight there also. I’m just trying to help, not stir up any trouble. /charlie From: houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Rouse Sent: Monday, August 7, 2017 06:36 AM To: houcfug@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question Well Oracle and Microsoft certainly take the time to come out and meet us still, I guess we are not an "average customer" to them. Adobe used to do this, at least once a year with us if not more often than that, good to know we are just "average" now in their eyes, but then again I think we long since figured that out anyway. -- Admiral Aaron Rouse On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 7:38 PM, charlie arehart mailto:charlie_li...@carehart.org> > wrote: I don’t know if you’re saying that in jest, Aaron, but I would have been that “certain Charlie”. :-) Yep, I worked for New Atlanta from 2003-2006 (hard to believe it’s been over 10 years since I left). And yep, as we were needing to persuade people about the value it brought (especially for .NET deployment of CFML, when that was—and still is—compelling to some transitioning to ASP.NET), we did have me traveling around to user groups and key clients/prospects, and I do believe I spoke at the houcfug. :-) But back to the “don’t see Adobe coming around”, that is another one where I would say I rarely have seen most companies really selling their product to the average customer, or if they do it’s generally at a level where many of us “regular folks” wouldn’t be involved. :-) I’m picturing golf outings, executive lunches, stuff like that, which is what I suspect happens with most enterprise products. The number of such big CF deals in any given city may be very low, so I just don’t expect most CFers would ever see an Adobe person. This is similar to how especially international folks often complain they never see Adobe (in person, at events, or in their media), and I would often say in effect, “hey, trust me. The average American doesn’t, either. It’s really not somehow very different here, and it’s definitely not about Adobe disrespecting you and your country’s folks”. :-) /charlie -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/houcfug?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to houcfug+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
Well Oracle and Microsoft certainly take the time to come out and meet us still, I guess we are not an "average customer" to them. Adobe used to do this, at least once a year with us if not more often than that, good to know we are just "average" now in their eyes, but then again I think we long since figured that out anyway. -- Admiral Aaron Rouse On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 7:38 PM, charlie arehart wrote: > I don’t know if you’re saying that in jest, Aaron, but I would have been > that “certain Charlie”. :-) > > Yep, I worked for New Atlanta from 2003-2006 (hard to believe it’s been > over 10 years since I left). And yep, as we were needing to persuade people > about the value it brought (especially for .NET deployment of CFML, when > that was—and still is—compelling to some transitioning to ASP.NET), we did > have me traveling around to user groups and key clients/prospects, and I do > believe I spoke at the houcfug. :-) > > But back to the “don’t see Adobe coming around”, that is another one where > I would say I rarely have seen most companies really selling their product > to the average customer, or if they do it’s generally at a level where many > of us “regular folks” wouldn’t be involved. :-) I’m picturing golf outings, > executive lunches, stuff like that, which is what I suspect happens with > most enterprise products. The number of such big CF deals in any given city > may be very low, so I just don’t expect most CFers would ever see an Adobe > person. > > This is similar to how especially international folks often complain they > never see Adobe (in person, at events, or in their media), and I would > often say in effect, “hey, trust me. The average American doesn’t, either. > It’s really not somehow very different here, and it’s definitely not about > Adobe disrespecting you and your country’s folks”. :-) > > /charlie > > > > *From:* houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Aaron Rouse > *Sent:* Thursday, August 3, 2017 06:13 PM > *To:* houcfug@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question > > > > Three sides to everything and usually some mesh of all three is the real > story. > > > > That is a very surprising number, 8000, but probably surprising to me > because in my circle of contacts in the CF world everyone I know is > purchasing licenses through through company that is then used for different > clients. One particular contact up in NJ I would imagine has purchased > upwards of a dozen licenses in the past 12 months, I know at least half > would be for new clients of his. > > > > I think the lack of communication or poor communication methods is a real > thorn in the language side for established customers. I can't even > remember the last time we had someone come out to us "selling" ColdFusion > to us, been years, maybe even dates back to when Forta was the mouth > piece. Of course that all is back when other companies such as New Atlanta > also sent out people, I recall meeting a certain Charlie one time and > pretty certain my previous manager met that guy too for a different set of > CF servers. > > > > Now I need to go read up on the latest version of Zanzabar now that it is > open source and out of Adobe's reach. > > > > -- > > Admiral Aaron Rouse > > > > -- > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston > ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. > To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/houcfug?hl=en > > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to houcfug+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/houcfug?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to houcfug+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
I think earlier in this thread someone made a joke about an Adobe product called Zanzabar. (Zanzibar). On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 8:32 AM, wrote: > What’s Zanzabar? None of my Google-Fu could return anything that would > imply anything related to ColdFusion… > > > > *From:* houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Aaron Rouse > *Sent:* Thursday, August 3, 2017 6:13 PM > > *To:* houcfug@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question > > > > Three sides to everything and usually some mesh of all three is the real > story. > > > > That is a very surprising number, 8000, but probably surprising to me > because in my circle of contacts in the CF world everyone I know is > purchasing licenses through through company that is then used for different > clients. One particular contact up in NJ I would imagine has purchased > upwards of a dozen licenses in the past 12 months, I know at least half > would be for new clients of his. > > > > I think the lack of communication or poor communication methods is a real > thorn in the language side for established customers. I can't even > remember the last time we had someone come out to us "selling" ColdFusion > to us, been years, maybe even dates back to when Forta was the mouth > piece. Of course that all is back when other companies such as New Atlanta > also sent out people, I recall meeting a certain Charlie one time and > pretty certain my previous manager met that guy too for a different set of > CF servers. > > > > Now I need to go read up on the latest version of Zanzabar now that it is > open source and out of Adobe's reach. > > > > -- > > Admiral Aaron Rouse > > > > On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 1:19 PM, charlie arehart < > charlie_li...@carehart.org> wrote: > > I know it seems I’m always the apologist for Adobe. It’s just that since I > work with hundreds of clients each year (in my CF troubleshooting > consulting), and new ones every week, as well as with my ongoing > involvement in the CF community, I have a perhaps different perspective > than most who may focus either only on what they get to see/hear, or what > their circle of associates may get to see/hear/say. > > So about the question of whether Adobe’s report of increased “adoption” > can be trusted, well first, Aaron, I would point out that this sort of news > was first presented in a comment by Rakshith, on the post when CF came out, > where he said that they sell about 8000 new CF licenses per year. People > naturally raised the question of, are these upgrades? Subscriptions? Etc. > And he clarified that no, this was new clients who had not purchased CF > before: > > “*New customers in this context are entities or organizations that have > never bought ColdFusion from us in the past. Each such customer has bought > one or more units of Standard or Enterprise. 8000 new customers will mean > more than 8000 new units purchased.*” > > http://blogs.coldfusion.com/announcing-the-launch-of-the- > newest-version-of-coldfusion-adobe-coldfusion-2016-release/#comment-6180 > > For context, the two comments before from him were: > > http://blogs.coldfusion.com/announcing-the-launch-of-the- > newest-version-of-coldfusion-adobe-coldfusion-2016-release/#comment-6101 > and > http://blogs.coldfusion.com/announcing-the-launch-of-the- > newest-version-of-coldfusion-adobe-coldfusion-2016-release/#comment-6178 > > > Why we have to dig through the comments to find this out, versus seeing a > post on it, is indeed another facet of the communications challenges that > you go on to share, Aaron. I don’t deny those. I just do what I can to > share what I can when I see discussions like this, and don’t see others > mentioning these more positive aspects. Like politics and cultre today, > it’s SO easy to focus only on what’s wrong, as well as for echo chambers to > appear where only one side of a story is ever told. I see that a LOT in the > CF community. > > And I see the other comments here in the thread, and I will have a couple > more thoughts those. As always, just trying to help, in broadening the > discussion. Especially since some people are indeed making critical > business decisions based on such discussions. > > /charlie > > > > *From:* houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Aaron Rouse > *Sent:* Thursday, August 3, 2017 09:09 AM > *To:* houcfug@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question > > > > I wonder how they judge an adoption percentage. Since 2012 due to a > couple of things(mainly us mothballing old Windows operating systems but >
RE: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
What’s Zanzabar? None of my Google-Fu could return anything that would imply anything related to ColdFusion… From: houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Rouse Sent: Thursday, August 3, 2017 6:13 PM To: houcfug@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question Three sides to everything and usually some mesh of all three is the real story. That is a very surprising number, 8000, but probably surprising to me because in my circle of contacts in the CF world everyone I know is purchasing licenses through through company that is then used for different clients. One particular contact up in NJ I would imagine has purchased upwards of a dozen licenses in the past 12 months, I know at least half would be for new clients of his. I think the lack of communication or poor communication methods is a real thorn in the language side for established customers. I can't even remember the last time we had someone come out to us "selling" ColdFusion to us, been years, maybe even dates back to when Forta was the mouth piece. Of course that all is back when other companies such as New Atlanta also sent out people, I recall meeting a certain Charlie one time and pretty certain my previous manager met that guy too for a different set of CF servers. Now I need to go read up on the latest version of Zanzabar now that it is open source and out of Adobe's reach. -- Admiral Aaron Rouse On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 1:19 PM, charlie arehart mailto:charlie_li...@carehart.org>> wrote: I know it seems I’m always the apologist for Adobe. It’s just that since I work with hundreds of clients each year (in my CF troubleshooting consulting), and new ones every week, as well as with my ongoing involvement in the CF community, I have a perhaps different perspective than most who may focus either only on what they get to see/hear, or what their circle of associates may get to see/hear/say. So about the question of whether Adobe’s report of increased “adoption” can be trusted, well first, Aaron, I would point out that this sort of news was first presented in a comment by Rakshith, on the post when CF came out, where he said that they sell about 8000 new CF licenses per year. People naturally raised the question of, are these upgrades? Subscriptions? Etc. And he clarified that no, this was new clients who had not purchased CF before: “New customers in this context are entities or organizations that have never bought ColdFusion from us in the past. Each such customer has bought one or more units of Standard or Enterprise. 8000 new customers will mean more than 8000 new units purchased.” http://blogs.coldfusion.com/announcing-the-launch-of-the-newest-version-of-coldfusion-adobe-coldfusion-2016-release/#comment-6180 For context, the two comments before from him were: http://blogs.coldfusion.com/announcing-the-launch-of-the-newest-version-of-coldfusion-adobe-coldfusion-2016-release/#comment-6101 and http://blogs.coldfusion.com/announcing-the-launch-of-the-newest-version-of-coldfusion-adobe-coldfusion-2016-release/#comment-6178 Why we have to dig through the comments to find this out, versus seeing a post on it, is indeed another facet of the communications challenges that you go on to share, Aaron. I don’t deny those. I just do what I can to share what I can when I see discussions like this, and don’t see others mentioning these more positive aspects. Like politics and cultre today, it’s SO easy to focus only on what’s wrong, as well as for echo chambers to appear where only one side of a story is ever told. I see that a LOT in the CF community. And I see the other comments here in the thread, and I will have a couple more thoughts those. As always, just trying to help, in broadening the discussion. Especially since some people are indeed making critical business decisions based on such discussions. /charlie From: houcfug@googlegroups.com<mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com> [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com<mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf Of Aaron Rouse Sent: Thursday, August 3, 2017 09:09 AM To: houcfug@googlegroups.com<mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question I wonder how they judge an adoption percentage. Since 2012 due to a couple of things(mainly us mothballing old Windows operating systems but also some internal changes that require us to go to newer versions of Java and in turn CF more times than not) I personally have signed off on at least half a dozen if not a dozen CF license purchases. These were not upgrades to new versions of CF, because the old versions we had running were too old to qualify for an upgrade, so brand new purchases. Just seems like a lot of factors that Adobe would know nothing about at play here, not like they ever sent me a survey pre or post purchase to even try to gather some data. One thing that always
RE: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
I don’t know if you’re saying that in jest, Aaron, but I would have been that “certain Charlie”. :-) Yep, I worked for New Atlanta from 2003-2006 (hard to believe it’s been over 10 years since I left). And yep, as we were needing to persuade people about the value it brought (especially for .NET deployment of CFML, when that was—and still is—compelling to some transitioning to ASP.NET), we did have me traveling around to user groups and key clients/prospects, and I do believe I spoke at the houcfug. :-) But back to the “don’t see Adobe coming around”, that is another one where I would say I rarely have seen most companies really selling their product to the average customer, or if they do it’s generally at a level where many of us “regular folks” wouldn’t be involved. :-) I’m picturing golf outings, executive lunches, stuff like that, which is what I suspect happens with most enterprise products. The number of such big CF deals in any given city may be very low, so I just don’t expect most CFers would ever see an Adobe person. This is similar to how especially international folks often complain they never see Adobe (in person, at events, or in their media), and I would often say in effect, “hey, trust me. The average American doesn’t, either. It’s really not somehow very different here, and it’s definitely not about Adobe disrespecting you and your country’s folks”. :-) /charlie From: houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Rouse Sent: Thursday, August 3, 2017 06:13 PM To: houcfug@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question Three sides to everything and usually some mesh of all three is the real story. That is a very surprising number, 8000, but probably surprising to me because in my circle of contacts in the CF world everyone I know is purchasing licenses through through company that is then used for different clients. One particular contact up in NJ I would imagine has purchased upwards of a dozen licenses in the past 12 months, I know at least half would be for new clients of his. I think the lack of communication or poor communication methods is a real thorn in the language side for established customers. I can't even remember the last time we had someone come out to us "selling" ColdFusion to us, been years, maybe even dates back to when Forta was the mouth piece. Of course that all is back when other companies such as New Atlanta also sent out people, I recall meeting a certain Charlie one time and pretty certain my previous manager met that guy too for a different set of CF servers. Now I need to go read up on the latest version of Zanzabar now that it is open source and out of Adobe's reach. -- Admiral Aaron Rouse -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/houcfug?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to houcfug+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
Three sides to everything and usually some mesh of all three is the real story. That is a very surprising number, 8000, but probably surprising to me because in my circle of contacts in the CF world everyone I know is purchasing licenses through through company that is then used for different clients. One particular contact up in NJ I would imagine has purchased upwards of a dozen licenses in the past 12 months, I know at least half would be for new clients of his. I think the lack of communication or poor communication methods is a real thorn in the language side for established customers. I can't even remember the last time we had someone come out to us "selling" ColdFusion to us, been years, maybe even dates back to when Forta was the mouth piece. Of course that all is back when other companies such as New Atlanta also sent out people, I recall meeting a certain Charlie one time and pretty certain my previous manager met that guy too for a different set of CF servers. Now I need to go read up on the latest version of Zanzabar now that it is open source and out of Adobe's reach. -- Admiral Aaron Rouse On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 1:19 PM, charlie arehart wrote: > I know it seems I’m always the apologist for Adobe. It’s just that since I > work with hundreds of clients each year (in my CF troubleshooting > consulting), and new ones every week, as well as with my ongoing > involvement in the CF community, I have a perhaps different perspective > than most who may focus either only on what they get to see/hear, or what > their circle of associates may get to see/hear/say. > > So about the question of whether Adobe’s report of increased “adoption” > can be trusted, well first, Aaron, I would point out that this sort of news > was first presented in a comment by Rakshith, on the post when CF came out, > where he said that they sell about 8000 new CF licenses per year. People > naturally raised the question of, are these upgrades? Subscriptions? Etc. > And he clarified that no, this was new clients who had not purchased CF > before: > > “*New customers in this context are entities or organizations that have > never bought ColdFusion from us in the past. Each such customer has bought > one or more units of Standard or Enterprise. 8000 new customers will mean > more than 8000 new units purchased.*” > > http://blogs.coldfusion.com/announcing-the-launch-of-the- > newest-version-of-coldfusion-adobe-coldfusion-2016-release/#comment-6180 > > For context, the two comments before from him were: > > http://blogs.coldfusion.com/announcing-the-launch-of-the- > newest-version-of-coldfusion-adobe-coldfusion-2016-release/#comment-6101 > and > http://blogs.coldfusion.com/announcing-the-launch-of-the- > newest-version-of-coldfusion-adobe-coldfusion-2016-release/#comment-6178 > > > Why we have to dig through the comments to find this out, versus seeing a > post on it, is indeed another facet of the communications challenges that > you go on to share, Aaron. I don’t deny those. I just do what I can to > share what I can when I see discussions like this, and don’t see others > mentioning these more positive aspects. Like politics and cultre today, > it’s SO easy to focus only on what’s wrong, as well as for echo chambers to > appear where only one side of a story is ever told. I see that a LOT in the > CF community. > > And I see the other comments here in the thread, and I will have a couple > more thoughts those. As always, just trying to help, in broadening the > discussion. Especially since some people are indeed making critical > business decisions based on such discussions. > > /charlie > > > > *From:* houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Aaron Rouse > *Sent:* Thursday, August 3, 2017 09:09 AM > *To:* houcfug@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question > > > > I wonder how they judge an adoption percentage. Since 2012 due to a > couple of things(mainly us mothballing old Windows operating systems but > also some internal changes that require us to go to newer versions of Java > and in turn CF more times than not) I personally have signed off on at > least half a dozen if not a dozen CF license purchases. These were not > upgrades to new versions of CF, because the old versions we had running > were too old to qualify for an upgrade, so brand new purchases. Just seems > like a lot of factors that Adobe would know nothing about at play here, not > like they ever sent me a survey pre or post purchase to even try to gather > some data. > > > > One thing that always bugs me is Adobe's failure to really notify existing > customers of much to anything. As an example even though I have all those > licenses relate
RE: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
As for the lack of comms from Adobe, again I don’t deny that, but I would add that they are VERY careful about sending out email. And that means that even the CF team can have a hard time getting email out. Another challenge is for Adobe to distinguish who really is an active user vs who just made the purchase. The latter tend to not care to hear much. The former may just not be known by Adobe. (I realize that’s just one example, and not Aaron’s aforementioned situation.) Of course, I have experienced such poor email comms from other companies whose products I own, so this doesn’t surprise or bother me quite as much as I know it does some. And as for Billy’s experience at the conference where Adobe folks seemed not to know about CF, well, that doesn’t surprise me either. I always point out that Adobe is huge, and the CF team is tiny. Probably 99% of Adobe folks can’t even spell ColdFusion, because it never even crosses their radar screen (since it’s not in the Creative Cloud wheelhouse). And any top-level folks there do likely only care about it to the degree that it contributes to the bottom line, and without other detriment. But to be clear, the CF team IS very much devoted to CF, again more than I think most give them credit, since most folks rarely see or hear from them (see the first point above), and I’ve tried to get them on the CFMeetup but it’s been hard. At least they have been speaking this week on the Adobe Devweek, and nearly all of them come to and/or speak at the Summit in Nov. There are plenty of aspects of these situations which are sad, sure. I’ve personally just learned over the years to accept them as, it is what it is. You can’t push a rope, and again Adobe is a big ship. We can only do what we can. /charlie From: houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Billy Cravens Sent: Thursday, August 3, 2017 12:50 PM To: houcfug@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question I remember a few years ago at the Internet Retailers Conference (mostly e-commerce focused, generally CIO level) I walked over to the giant Adobe booth (they were pitching their all-in-solution or whatever it was), mentioning I was a Adobe ColdFusion UGM, and the sales rep there looked at like if I had said I was the UGM for Adobe Zanzabar it would have made as much sense. Billy Cravens On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 9:57 AM, Gary McNeel mailto:gary.mcn...@gmail.com> > wrote: This is great information. I am going to continue to mockup and launch the site using CF for now. I have it all running and the hosting company supports it (up to 11 I think). For me it is quick and easy compared to what we do in .NET. I will, however, be asking you guys some questions that will seem easy to you and appreciate any help. As I said earlier, I am not a hardcore developer and am more focused on creating a good starting point that I hope will get traction and then hire in the real developers, perhaps converting it to something different if it makes sense. So expect to see a little more activity from the group for a bit. Thanks for all the feedback. Adobe has not been good about letting me know about anything - ever. That includes all the CC stuff. I do have to admit it is getting better. I have gotten a few emails, but they are not related to Coldfusion. -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/houcfug?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to houcfug+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
I know it seems I’m always the apologist for Adobe. It’s just that since I work with hundreds of clients each year (in my CF troubleshooting consulting), and new ones every week, as well as with my ongoing involvement in the CF community, I have a perhaps different perspective than most who may focus either only on what they get to see/hear, or what their circle of associates may get to see/hear/say. So about the question of whether Adobe’s report of increased “adoption” can be trusted, well first, Aaron, I would point out that this sort of news was first presented in a comment by Rakshith, on the post when CF came out, where he said that they sell about 8000 new CF licenses per year. People naturally raised the question of, are these upgrades? Subscriptions? Etc. And he clarified that no, this was new clients who had not purchased CF before: “New customers in this context are entities or organizations that have never bought ColdFusion from us in the past. Each such customer has bought one or more units of Standard or Enterprise. 8000 new customers will mean more than 8000 new units purchased.” <http://blogs.coldfusion.com/announcing-the-launch-of-the-newest-version-of-coldfusion-adobe-coldfusion-2016-release/#comment-6180> http://blogs.coldfusion.com/announcing-the-launch-of-the-newest-version-of-coldfusion-adobe-coldfusion-2016-release/#comment-6180 For context, the two comments before from him were: http://blogs.coldfusion.com/announcing-the-launch-of-the-newest-version-of-coldfusion-adobe-coldfusion-2016-release/#comment-6101 and http://blogs.coldfusion.com/announcing-the-launch-of-the-newest-version-of-coldfusion-adobe-coldfusion-2016-release/#comment-6178 Why we have to dig through the comments to find this out, versus seeing a post on it, is indeed another facet of the communications challenges that you go on to share, Aaron. I don’t deny those. I just do what I can to share what I can when I see discussions like this, and don’t see others mentioning these more positive aspects. Like politics and cultre today, it’s SO easy to focus only on what’s wrong, as well as for echo chambers to appear where only one side of a story is ever told. I see that a LOT in the CF community. And I see the other comments here in the thread, and I will have a couple more thoughts those. As always, just trying to help, in broadening the discussion. Especially since some people are indeed making critical business decisions based on such discussions. /charlie From: houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Rouse Sent: Thursday, August 3, 2017 09:09 AM To: houcfug@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question I wonder how they judge an adoption percentage. Since 2012 due to a couple of things(mainly us mothballing old Windows operating systems but also some internal changes that require us to go to newer versions of Java and in turn CF more times than not) I personally have signed off on at least half a dozen if not a dozen CF license purchases. These were not upgrades to new versions of CF, because the old versions we had running were too old to qualify for an upgrade, so brand new purchases. Just seems like a lot of factors that Adobe would know nothing about at play here, not like they ever sent me a survey pre or post purchase to even try to gather some data. One thing that always bugs me is Adobe's failure to really notify existing customers of much to anything. As an example even though I have all those licenses related to my primary work email account, I can't think of a single notification about what John pointed out. I can recall some notifications about the CF conference they have later this year as well as ones about Adobe products we do not even use. Heck I had no idea CF2016 came out until I got an email from the Adobe licensing site saying my purchase was complete or some cryptic wording like that, I had to log in and see what in the world were they notifying me about and THEN see it was about new version of CF due to the many Platinum support packages we maintain and I am a contact on those too. Some more communication sure could go a long way here, the current level makes it feel like they have zero interest in the product and just treat it as a cash cow until the cow finally kills over and dies. -- Admiral Aaron Rouse On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 12:37 PM, charlie arehart mailto:charlie_li...@carehart.org> > wrote: And Gary, as for google results often being old ones, well, consider first that some answers from back then may be as good now as then. Indeed, google ranks a result based on (among many other things of course) how often people open it and then don’t proceed to open another in the given search result list. They figure if people don’t go to another, it must be authoritative (or at least adequate). Sadly that does mean that sometimes
Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
out, >>>> this whole week Adobe is giving several webinars on various facets of >>>> CF2016. The recording will be posted likely next week. >>>> >>>> And the first one was an overview by the Product Manager, Rakshith, >>>> where he both addressed your very concerns, and also highlighted recent >>>> improvements, and touted what’s planned for CF2018. >>>> >>>> But he also pointed out a point that few seem to realize: that CF >>>> adoption has grown by 20% on average between 2012 and 2017. That is an >>>> acknowledgement that while of course some have left CF (for all the >>>> aforementioned reasons in this thread and others, some justified and some >>>> perhaps misinformed/chicken little), clearly more have ADOPTED CF than have >>>> left it. >>>> >>>> You don’t hear that ever that sort of positive observation in any of >>>> the long-winded discussions which inevitably arise when this question is >>>> debated, which as Steve noted has sincerely been going on since the early >>>> 200’s. It’s great when there can be a reasoned discussion, as is happening >>>> here. It’s just too bad that it often happens elsewhere with only >>>> overwhelming negativity from those who either have left or feel compelled >>>> to persuade all listeners that “any thinking person” should. >>>> >>>> There are indeed more affirming points, like the Adobe CF Summit >>>> conference in Nov which grows in size each year. But there are surely >>>> plenty of challenges. I’m just saying it’s not as bad as many/most seem to >>>> want to make it out to be. >>>> >>>> BTW, as for the jobs issue I addressed that, pointing to resources >>>> offering hundreds of them (still today), in a recent post: >>>> >>>> http://www.carehart.org/blog/client/index.cfm/2007/3/11/FInd >>>> ing-ColdFusion-Jobs >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> /charlie >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] *On >>>> Behalf Of *Gary McNeel >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 2, 2017 05:40 AM >>>> *To:* Houston ColdFusion Users' Group >>>> *Subject:* Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes, that is what I see. I guess, as a non-hardcore-developer, more of >>>> an idea/product manager type, I find it perfect for my needs. Sadly, there >>>> may not be many of 'me' out here. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> At Jacob's I began to see the move to SharePoint withing NASA and moved >>>> us to .NET, which took some doing, as everyone, for the most part, was CF. >>>> But, like you, I missed many of the convenient bits and found the added >>>> complexity of .NET, in someways, more time consuming. Thanks for the lucid >>>> reply. I will keep doing my first pass on this app in CF, asking you guys >>>> for help as long as people monitor the group ;) and if it works okay hire >>>> someone to move it to another language. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Gary >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston >>>> ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. >>>> To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>> For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/houcfug?hl=en >>>> >>>> --- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to houcfug+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston >>> ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. >>> To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>> For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/houcfug?hl=en >>> >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed t
Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
;> perhaps misinformed/chicken little), clearly more have ADOPTED CF than have >>> left it. >>> >>> You don’t hear that ever that sort of positive observation in any of the >>> long-winded discussions which inevitably arise when this question is >>> debated, which as Steve noted has sincerely been going on since the early >>> 200’s. It’s great when there can be a reasoned discussion, as is happening >>> here. It’s just too bad that it often happens elsewhere with only >>> overwhelming negativity from those who either have left or feel compelled >>> to persuade all listeners that “any thinking person” should. >>> >>> There are indeed more affirming points, like the Adobe CF Summit >>> conference in Nov which grows in size each year. But there are surely >>> plenty of challenges. I’m just saying it’s not as bad as many/most seem to >>> want to make it out to be. >>> >>> BTW, as for the jobs issue I addressed that, pointing to resources >>> offering hundreds of them (still today), in a recent post: >>> >>> http://www.carehart.org/blog/client/index.cfm/2007/3/11/FInd >>> ing-ColdFusion-Jobs >>> >>> >>> >>> /charlie >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] *On >>> Behalf Of *Gary McNeel >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 2, 2017 05:40 AM >>> *To:* Houston ColdFusion Users' Group >>> *Subject:* Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question >>> >>> >>> >>> Yes, that is what I see. I guess, as a non-hardcore-developer, more of >>> an idea/product manager type, I find it perfect for my needs. Sadly, there >>> may not be many of 'me' out here. >>> >>> >>> >>> At Jacob's I began to see the move to SharePoint withing NASA and moved >>> us to .NET, which took some doing, as everyone, for the most part, was CF. >>> But, like you, I missed many of the convenient bits and found the added >>> complexity of .NET, in someways, more time consuming. Thanks for the lucid >>> reply. I will keep doing my first pass on this app in CF, asking you guys >>> for help as long as people monitor the group ;) and if it works okay hire >>> someone to move it to another language. >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Gary >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston >>> ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. >>> To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>> For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/houcfug?hl=en >>> >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to houcfug+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston >> ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. >> To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >> For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/houcfug?hl=en >> >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to houcfug+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > John Bliss - http://www.linkedin.com/in/jbliss > > -- > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston > ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. > To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/houcfug?hl=en > > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to houcfug+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Warm Regards, Gary McNeel 713-962-0885 -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/houcfug?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to houcfug+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
> As an example even though I have all those licenses related to my primary work email account, I can't think of a single notification about what John pointed out. Yes! The *only* reason I found out about it is that I subscribe to http://blogs.coldfusion.com On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 10:08 AM, Aaron Rouse wrote: > I wonder how they judge an adoption percentage. Since 2012 due to a > couple of things(mainly us mothballing old Windows operating systems but > also some internal changes that require us to go to newer versions of Java > and in turn CF more times than not) I personally have signed off on at > least half a dozen if not a dozen CF license purchases. These were not > upgrades to new versions of CF, because the old versions we had running > were too old to qualify for an upgrade, so brand new purchases. Just seems > like a lot of factors that Adobe would know nothing about at play here, not > like they ever sent me a survey pre or post purchase to even try to gather > some data. > > One thing that always bugs me is Adobe's failure to really notify existing > customers of much to anything. As an example even though I have all those > licenses related to my primary work email account, I can't think of a > single notification about what John pointed out. I can recall some > notifications about the CF conference they have later this year as well as > ones about Adobe products we do not even use. Heck I had no idea CF2016 > came out until I got an email from the Adobe licensing site saying my > purchase was complete or some cryptic wording like that, I had to log in > and see what in the world were they notifying me about and THEN see it was > about new version of CF due to the many Platinum support packages we > maintain and I am a contact on those too. Some more communication sure > could go a long way here, the current level makes it feel like they have > zero interest in the product and just treat it as a cash cow until the cow > finally kills over and dies. > > -- > Admiral Aaron Rouse > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 12:37 PM, charlie arehart < > charlie_li...@carehart.org> wrote: > >> And Gary, as for google results often being old ones, well, consider >> first that some answers from back then may be as good now as then. Indeed, >> google ranks a result based on (among many other things of course) how >> often people open it and then don’t proceed to open another in the given >> search result list. They figure if people don’t go to another, it must be >> authoritative (or at least adequate). >> >> Sadly that does mean that sometimes old, stinky answers do remain >> popular, despite being outdated. This is of course not unique to CF, but it >> adds to the situation you observed. >> >> And not taking away from Billy’s reasonable observations, there is a lot >> more positive about CF than you usually hear. As John pointed out, this >> whole week Adobe is giving several webinars on various facets of CF2016. >> The recording will be posted likely next week. >> >> And the first one was an overview by the Product Manager, Rakshith, where >> he both addressed your very concerns, and also highlighted recent >> improvements, and touted what’s planned for CF2018. >> >> But he also pointed out a point that few seem to realize: that CF >> adoption has grown by 20% on average between 2012 and 2017. That is an >> acknowledgement that while of course some have left CF (for all the >> aforementioned reasons in this thread and others, some justified and some >> perhaps misinformed/chicken little), clearly more have ADOPTED CF than have >> left it. >> >> You don’t hear that ever that sort of positive observation in any of the >> long-winded discussions which inevitably arise when this question is >> debated, which as Steve noted has sincerely been going on since the early >> 200’s. It’s great when there can be a reasoned discussion, as is happening >> here. It’s just too bad that it often happens elsewhere with only >> overwhelming negativity from those who either have left or feel compelled >> to persuade all listeners that “any thinking person” should. >> >> There are indeed more affirming points, like the Adobe CF Summit >> conference in Nov which grows in size each year. But there are surely >> plenty of challenges. I’m just saying it’s not as bad as many/most seem to >> want to make it out to be. >> >> BTW, as for the jobs issue I addressed that, pointing to resources >> offering hundreds of them (still today), in a recent post: >> >> http://www.carehart.org/blog/client/index.cfm/2007/3/11/FInd >> ing-ColdFusion-Jobs >
Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
I wonder how they judge an adoption percentage. Since 2012 due to a couple of things(mainly us mothballing old Windows operating systems but also some internal changes that require us to go to newer versions of Java and in turn CF more times than not) I personally have signed off on at least half a dozen if not a dozen CF license purchases. These were not upgrades to new versions of CF, because the old versions we had running were too old to qualify for an upgrade, so brand new purchases. Just seems like a lot of factors that Adobe would know nothing about at play here, not like they ever sent me a survey pre or post purchase to even try to gather some data. One thing that always bugs me is Adobe's failure to really notify existing customers of much to anything. As an example even though I have all those licenses related to my primary work email account, I can't think of a single notification about what John pointed out. I can recall some notifications about the CF conference they have later this year as well as ones about Adobe products we do not even use. Heck I had no idea CF2016 came out until I got an email from the Adobe licensing site saying my purchase was complete or some cryptic wording like that, I had to log in and see what in the world were they notifying me about and THEN see it was about new version of CF due to the many Platinum support packages we maintain and I am a contact on those too. Some more communication sure could go a long way here, the current level makes it feel like they have zero interest in the product and just treat it as a cash cow until the cow finally kills over and dies. -- Admiral Aaron Rouse On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 12:37 PM, charlie arehart wrote: > And Gary, as for google results often being old ones, well, consider first > that some answers from back then may be as good now as then. Indeed, google > ranks a result based on (among many other things of course) how often > people open it and then don’t proceed to open another in the given search > result list. They figure if people don’t go to another, it must be > authoritative (or at least adequate). > > Sadly that does mean that sometimes old, stinky answers do remain popular, > despite being outdated. This is of course not unique to CF, but it adds to > the situation you observed. > > And not taking away from Billy’s reasonable observations, there is a lot > more positive about CF than you usually hear. As John pointed out, this > whole week Adobe is giving several webinars on various facets of CF2016. > The recording will be posted likely next week. > > And the first one was an overview by the Product Manager, Rakshith, where > he both addressed your very concerns, and also highlighted recent > improvements, and touted what’s planned for CF2018. > > But he also pointed out a point that few seem to realize: that CF adoption > has grown by 20% on average between 2012 and 2017. That is an > acknowledgement that while of course some have left CF (for all the > aforementioned reasons in this thread and others, some justified and some > perhaps misinformed/chicken little), clearly more have ADOPTED CF than have > left it. > > You don’t hear that ever that sort of positive observation in any of the > long-winded discussions which inevitably arise when this question is > debated, which as Steve noted has sincerely been going on since the early > 200’s. It’s great when there can be a reasoned discussion, as is happening > here. It’s just too bad that it often happens elsewhere with only > overwhelming negativity from those who either have left or feel compelled > to persuade all listeners that “any thinking person” should. > > There are indeed more affirming points, like the Adobe CF Summit > conference in Nov which grows in size each year. But there are surely > plenty of challenges. I’m just saying it’s not as bad as many/most seem to > want to make it out to be. > > BTW, as for the jobs issue I addressed that, pointing to resources > offering hundreds of them (still today), in a recent post: > > http://www.carehart.org/blog/client/index.cfm/2007/3/11/ > FInding-ColdFusion-Jobs > > > > /charlie > > > > *From:* houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Gary McNeel > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 2, 2017 05:40 AM > *To:* Houston ColdFusion Users' Group > *Subject:* Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question > > > > Yes, that is what I see. I guess, as a non-hardcore-developer, more of an > idea/product manager type, I find it perfect for my needs. Sadly, there may > not be many of 'me' out here. > > > > At Jacob's I began to see the move to SharePoint withing NASA and moved us > to .NET, which took some doing, as everyone, for the most part, was CF
RE: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
Yep, local groups can be great. (And thanks for the shout outs, Billy and James.) And funny that Billy complained that your group soon became him talking all the time. I’ve avoided that with the online CF Meetup, but its been like pulling teeth to get speakers—which makes no sense to me. There are so many conference speakers who’ve put the time in to create sessions. Why not offer them online to be recorded? Or as has been noted here, either local group or the online meetup are just as suited to people giving a new talk, even if they’ve never spoken before or not often. Lots of local user groups are struggling in recent years, but as Billy has said there’s real value in getting together just to socialize, in ways that can’t be met with social media. But different strokes, so, hard to please everyone. :-) /charlie From: houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Billy Cravens Sent: Wednesday, August 2, 2017 04:04 PM To: houcfug@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question Charlie has been doing this for years: https://www.meetup.com/coldfusionmeetup/ A small local group's advantage is proximity and networking. If you're going to be virtual, might as well cast a wider net. Billy Cravens On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 3:53 PM, mailto:james.tho...@bakerbotts.com> > wrote: That’s what I don’t get – this is 2017 – why not meet virtually via Skype, Slack, Discord, etc. – sure, human interaction is fun and all, but you have a greater chance of everyone attending, and you can share docs and present just like you would if everyone met in person. -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/houcfug?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to houcfug+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
Charlie has been doing this for years: https://www.meetup.com/coldfusionmeetup/ A small local group's advantage is proximity and networking. If you're going to be virtual, might as well cast a wider net. Billy Cravens On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 3:53 PM, wrote: > That’s what I don’t get – this is 2017 – why not meet virtually via Skype, > Slack, Discord, etc. – sure, human interaction is fun and all, but you have > a greater chance of everyone attending, and you can share docs and present > just like you would if everyone met in person. > > > > *From:* houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *John M Bliss > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 2, 2017 3:16 PM > *To:* houcfug@googlegroups.com > > *Subject:* Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question > > > > Sure! Come on over! > > > > I live in Fort Myers and my "local" CFUG is http://www.cfug-sfl.org which > used to meet 150 miles across Alligator Alley in Miami. Now, they meet > virtually. > > > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 4:13 PM, Gary McNeel wrote: > > Ok, so the first meeting is hosted by John in Florida! > > > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 12:59 PM, John M Bliss > wrote: > > I wish. I enjoy lurking here but I moved to Florida. > > > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Ken Auenson, II > wrote: > > Since we are having the most active discussion in a while, I was wondering > if anyone would be up for reviving the local, in person, meetings for the > group? > > > > I would gladly host meetings anytime at The Humble Makers (makerspace in > NE Houston). This is at 59N and 1960, so not as convenient for some... But > there are a lot of people in North Houston or who don't mind making the > drive, so I thought I would put this question out there... > > > > On Aug 2, 2017 12:37 PM, "charlie arehart" > wrote: > > And Gary, as for google results often being old ones, well, consider first > that some answers from back then may be as good now as then. Indeed, google > ranks a result based on (among many other things of course) how often > people open it and then don’t proceed to open another in the given search > result list. They figure if people don’t go to another, it must be > authoritative (or at least adequate). > > Sadly that does mean that sometimes old, stinky answers do remain popular, > despite being outdated. This is of course not unique to CF, but it adds to > the situation you observed. > > And not taking away from Billy’s reasonable observations, there is a lot > more positive about CF than you usually hear. As John pointed out, this > whole week Adobe is giving several webinars on various facets of CF2016. > The recording will be posted likely next week. > > And the first one was an overview by the Product Manager, Rakshith, where > he both addressed your very concerns, and also highlighted recent > improvements, and touted what’s planned for CF2018. > > But he also pointed out a point that few seem to realize: that CF adoption > has grown by 20% on average between 2012 and 2017. That is an > acknowledgement that while of course some have left CF (for all the > aforementioned reasons in this thread and others, some justified and some > perhaps misinformed/chicken little), clearly more have ADOPTED CF than have > left it. > > You don’t hear that ever that sort of positive observation in any of the > long-winded discussions which inevitably arise when this question is > debated, which as Steve noted has sincerely been going on since the early > 200’s. It’s great when there can be a reasoned discussion, as is happening > here. It’s just too bad that it often happens elsewhere with only > overwhelming negativity from those who either have left or feel compelled > to persuade all listeners that “any thinking person” should. > > There are indeed more affirming points, like the Adobe CF Summit > conference in Nov which grows in size each year. But there are surely > plenty of challenges. I’m just saying it’s not as bad as many/most seem to > want to make it out to be. > > BTW, as for the jobs issue I addressed that, pointing to resources > offering hundreds of them (still today), in a recent post: > > http://www.carehart.org/blog/client/index.cfm/2007/3/11/ > FInding-ColdFusion-Jobs > > > > /charlie > > > > *From:* houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Gary McNeel > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 2, 2017 05:40 AM > *To:* Houston ColdFusion Users' Group > *Subject:* Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question > > > > Yes, that is what I see. I guess, as a non-hardcore-developer, more of an > idea/product manager ty
RE: [houcfug] ColdFusion DEAD Question
This also allows luminaries like Charlie and the ACF team to actually attend the CFUG, and provide important substance around CF. Also, on the CF is Dead original subject – we’re still using BlueDragon.NET 7.1, made by NewAtlanta. It’s basically CF8 minus a few Adobe-specific tags, and we still are creating interesting and dynamic applications. It’s just too damn easy to create stuff quickly in CF versus .NET or similar. Add to the fact it runs on .NET instead of bloated, memory-hungry JVMs, we’re running 100+ sites on a two-CPU server with 16 GB RAM and only utilizing 30-40% CPU and 20% memory. We can also leverage any .NET object and library too, right within CFML (yes, I know you can now do this in ACF). From: houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John M Bliss Sent: Wednesday, August 2, 2017 3:55 PM To: houcfug@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question Plus then everyone can enjoy a beer (or three) with the CFUG meeting and not have to worry about Ubering home! :-) On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 4:53 PM, mailto:james.tho...@bakerbotts.com>> wrote: That’s what I don’t get – this is 2017 – why not meet virtually via Skype, Slack, Discord, etc. – sure, human interaction is fun and all, but you have a greater chance of everyone attending, and you can share docs and present just like you would if everyone met in person. From: houcfug@googlegroups.com<mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com> [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com<mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf Of John M Bliss Sent: Wednesday, August 2, 2017 3:16 PM To: houcfug@googlegroups.com<mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question Sure! Come on over! I live in Fort Myers and my "local" CFUG is http://www.cfug-sfl.org which used to meet 150 miles across Alligator Alley in Miami. Now, they meet virtually. On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 4:13 PM, Gary McNeel mailto:gary.mcn...@gmail.com>> wrote: Ok, so the first meeting is hosted by John in Florida! On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 12:59 PM, John M Bliss mailto:bliss.j...@gmail.com>> wrote: I wish. I enjoy lurking here but I moved to Florida. On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Ken Auenson, II mailto:ken.auen...@gmail.com>> wrote: Since we are having the most active discussion in a while, I was wondering if anyone would be up for reviving the local, in person, meetings for the group? I would gladly host meetings anytime at The Humble Makers (makerspace in NE Houston). This is at 59N and 1960, so not as convenient for some... But there are a lot of people in North Houston or who don't mind making the drive, so I thought I would put this question out there... On Aug 2, 2017 12:37 PM, "charlie arehart" mailto:charlie_li...@carehart.org>> wrote: And Gary, as for google results often being old ones, well, consider first that some answers from back then may be as good now as then. Indeed, google ranks a result based on (among many other things of course) how often people open it and then don’t proceed to open another in the given search result list. They figure if people don’t go to another, it must be authoritative (or at least adequate). Sadly that does mean that sometimes old, stinky answers do remain popular, despite being outdated. This is of course not unique to CF, but it adds to the situation you observed. And not taking away from Billy’s reasonable observations, there is a lot more positive about CF than you usually hear. As John pointed out, this whole week Adobe is giving several webinars on various facets of CF2016. The recording will be posted likely next week. And the first one was an overview by the Product Manager, Rakshith, where he both addressed your very concerns, and also highlighted recent improvements, and touted what’s planned for CF2018. But he also pointed out a point that few seem to realize: that CF adoption has grown by 20% on average between 2012 and 2017. That is an acknowledgement that while of course some have left CF (for all the aforementioned reasons in this thread and others, some justified and some perhaps misinformed/chicken little), clearly more have ADOPTED CF than have left it. You don’t hear that ever that sort of positive observation in any of the long-winded discussions which inevitably arise when this question is debated, which as Steve noted has sincerely been going on since the early 200’s. It’s great when there can be a reasoned discussion, as is happening here. It’s just too bad that it often happens elsewhere with only overwhelming negativity from those who either have left or feel compelled to persuade all listeners that “any thinking person” should. There are indeed more affirming points, like the Adobe CF Summit conference in Nov which grows in size each year. But there are surely plenty of challenges. I’m just saying it’s not as bad as many/most s
RE: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
James, Regarding why not host meetings virtually: Because we all already have some online contacts and resources, and there are already online meetups that fill this need. Online meetings and Skype are great for simple transfer of knowledge and presentation, but a Meetup group is so much more than that. You aren't going to make friends and deep personal connections with someone who is just 1 of 20 people being presented to in an online presentation. There is a valid argument for *also* providing the resources online to those who can't make it in person, but that's a different discussion. --Ken On Aug 2, 2017 3:53 PM, wrote: That’s what I don’t get – this is 2017 – why not meet virtually via Skype, Slack, Discord, etc. – sure, human interaction is fun and all, but you have a greater chance of everyone attending, and you can share docs and present just like you would if everyone met in person. *From:* houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *John M Bliss *Sent:* Wednesday, August 2, 2017 3:16 PM *To:* houcfug@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question Sure! Come on over! I live in Fort Myers and my "local" CFUG is http://www.cfug-sfl.org which used to meet 150 miles across Alligator Alley in Miami. Now, they meet virtually. On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 4:13 PM, Gary McNeel wrote: Ok, so the first meeting is hosted by John in Florida! On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 12:59 PM, John M Bliss wrote: I wish. I enjoy lurking here but I moved to Florida. On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Ken Auenson, II wrote: Since we are having the most active discussion in a while, I was wondering if anyone would be up for reviving the local, in person, meetings for the group? I would gladly host meetings anytime at The Humble Makers (makerspace in NE Houston). This is at 59N and 1960, so not as convenient for some... But there are a lot of people in North Houston or who don't mind making the drive, so I thought I would put this question out there... On Aug 2, 2017 12:37 PM, "charlie arehart" wrote: And Gary, as for google results often being old ones, well, consider first that some answers from back then may be as good now as then. Indeed, google ranks a result based on (among many other things of course) how often people open it and then don’t proceed to open another in the given search result list. They figure if people don’t go to another, it must be authoritative (or at least adequate). Sadly that does mean that sometimes old, stinky answers do remain popular, despite being outdated. This is of course not unique to CF, but it adds to the situation you observed. And not taking away from Billy’s reasonable observations, there is a lot more positive about CF than you usually hear. As John pointed out, this whole week Adobe is giving several webinars on various facets of CF2016. The recording will be posted likely next week. And the first one was an overview by the Product Manager, Rakshith, where he both addressed your very concerns, and also highlighted recent improvements, and touted what’s planned for CF2018. But he also pointed out a point that few seem to realize: that CF adoption has grown by 20% on average between 2012 and 2017. That is an acknowledgement that while of course some have left CF (for all the aforementioned reasons in this thread and others, some justified and some perhaps misinformed/chicken little), clearly more have ADOPTED CF than have left it. You don’t hear that ever that sort of positive observation in any of the long-winded discussions which inevitably arise when this question is debated, which as Steve noted has sincerely been going on since the early 200’s. It’s great when there can be a reasoned discussion, as is happening here. It’s just too bad that it often happens elsewhere with only overwhelming negativity from those who either have left or feel compelled to persuade all listeners that “any thinking person” should. There are indeed more affirming points, like the Adobe CF Summit conference in Nov which grows in size each year. But there are surely plenty of challenges. I’m just saying it’s not as bad as many/most seem to want to make it out to be. BTW, as for the jobs issue I addressed that, pointing to resources offering hundreds of them (still today), in a recent post: http://www.carehart.org/blog/client/index.cfm/2007/3/11/ FInding-ColdFusion-Jobs /charlie *From:* houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Gary McNeel *Sent:* Wednesday, August 2, 2017 05:40 AM *To:* Houston ColdFusion Users' Group *Subject:* Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question Yes, that is what I see. I guess, as a non-hardcore-developer, more of an idea/product manager type, I find it perfect for my needs. Sadly, there may not be many of 'me' out here. At Jacob's I began to see the move to SharePoint withing NASA and moved
Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
Plus then everyone can enjoy a beer (or three) with the CFUG meeting and not have to worry about Ubering home! :-) On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 4:53 PM, wrote: > That’s what I don’t get – this is 2017 – why not meet virtually via Skype, > Slack, Discord, etc. – sure, human interaction is fun and all, but you have > a greater chance of everyone attending, and you can share docs and present > just like you would if everyone met in person. > > > > *From:* houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *John M Bliss > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 2, 2017 3:16 PM > *To:* houcfug@googlegroups.com > > *Subject:* Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question > > > > Sure! Come on over! > > > > I live in Fort Myers and my "local" CFUG is http://www.cfug-sfl.org which > used to meet 150 miles across Alligator Alley in Miami. Now, they meet > virtually. > > > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 4:13 PM, Gary McNeel wrote: > > Ok, so the first meeting is hosted by John in Florida! > > > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 12:59 PM, John M Bliss > wrote: > > I wish. I enjoy lurking here but I moved to Florida. > > > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Ken Auenson, II > wrote: > > Since we are having the most active discussion in a while, I was wondering > if anyone would be up for reviving the local, in person, meetings for the > group? > > > > I would gladly host meetings anytime at The Humble Makers (makerspace in > NE Houston). This is at 59N and 1960, so not as convenient for some... But > there are a lot of people in North Houston or who don't mind making the > drive, so I thought I would put this question out there... > > > > On Aug 2, 2017 12:37 PM, "charlie arehart" > wrote: > > And Gary, as for google results often being old ones, well, consider first > that some answers from back then may be as good now as then. Indeed, google > ranks a result based on (among many other things of course) how often > people open it and then don’t proceed to open another in the given search > result list. They figure if people don’t go to another, it must be > authoritative (or at least adequate). > > Sadly that does mean that sometimes old, stinky answers do remain popular, > despite being outdated. This is of course not unique to CF, but it adds to > the situation you observed. > > And not taking away from Billy’s reasonable observations, there is a lot > more positive about CF than you usually hear. As John pointed out, this > whole week Adobe is giving several webinars on various facets of CF2016. > The recording will be posted likely next week. > > And the first one was an overview by the Product Manager, Rakshith, where > he both addressed your very concerns, and also highlighted recent > improvements, and touted what’s planned for CF2018. > > But he also pointed out a point that few seem to realize: that CF adoption > has grown by 20% on average between 2012 and 2017. That is an > acknowledgement that while of course some have left CF (for all the > aforementioned reasons in this thread and others, some justified and some > perhaps misinformed/chicken little), clearly more have ADOPTED CF than have > left it. > > You don’t hear that ever that sort of positive observation in any of the > long-winded discussions which inevitably arise when this question is > debated, which as Steve noted has sincerely been going on since the early > 200’s. It’s great when there can be a reasoned discussion, as is happening > here. It’s just too bad that it often happens elsewhere with only > overwhelming negativity from those who either have left or feel compelled > to persuade all listeners that “any thinking person” should. > > There are indeed more affirming points, like the Adobe CF Summit > conference in Nov which grows in size each year. But there are surely > plenty of challenges. I’m just saying it’s not as bad as many/most seem to > want to make it out to be. > > BTW, as for the jobs issue I addressed that, pointing to resources > offering hundreds of them (still today), in a recent post: > > http://www.carehart.org/blog/client/index.cfm/2007/3/11/ > FInding-ColdFusion-Jobs > > > > /charlie > > > > *From:* houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Gary McNeel > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 2, 2017 05:40 AM > *To:* Houston ColdFusion Users' Group > *Subject:* Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question > > > > Yes, that is what I see. I guess, as a non-hardcore-developer, more of an > idea/product manager type, I find it perfect for my needs. Sadly, there may > not be many of 'me' out here. > >
RE: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
That’s what I don’t get – this is 2017 – why not meet virtually via Skype, Slack, Discord, etc. – sure, human interaction is fun and all, but you have a greater chance of everyone attending, and you can share docs and present just like you would if everyone met in person. From: houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John M Bliss Sent: Wednesday, August 2, 2017 3:16 PM To: houcfug@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question Sure! Come on over! I live in Fort Myers and my "local" CFUG is http://www.cfug-sfl.org which used to meet 150 miles across Alligator Alley in Miami. Now, they meet virtually. On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 4:13 PM, Gary McNeel mailto:gary.mcn...@gmail.com>> wrote: Ok, so the first meeting is hosted by John in Florida! On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 12:59 PM, John M Bliss mailto:bliss.j...@gmail.com>> wrote: I wish. I enjoy lurking here but I moved to Florida. On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Ken Auenson, II mailto:ken.auen...@gmail.com>> wrote: Since we are having the most active discussion in a while, I was wondering if anyone would be up for reviving the local, in person, meetings for the group? I would gladly host meetings anytime at The Humble Makers (makerspace in NE Houston). This is at 59N and 1960, so not as convenient for some... But there are a lot of people in North Houston or who don't mind making the drive, so I thought I would put this question out there... On Aug 2, 2017 12:37 PM, "charlie arehart" mailto:charlie_li...@carehart.org>> wrote: And Gary, as for google results often being old ones, well, consider first that some answers from back then may be as good now as then. Indeed, google ranks a result based on (among many other things of course) how often people open it and then don’t proceed to open another in the given search result list. They figure if people don’t go to another, it must be authoritative (or at least adequate). Sadly that does mean that sometimes old, stinky answers do remain popular, despite being outdated. This is of course not unique to CF, but it adds to the situation you observed. And not taking away from Billy’s reasonable observations, there is a lot more positive about CF than you usually hear. As John pointed out, this whole week Adobe is giving several webinars on various facets of CF2016. The recording will be posted likely next week. And the first one was an overview by the Product Manager, Rakshith, where he both addressed your very concerns, and also highlighted recent improvements, and touted what’s planned for CF2018. But he also pointed out a point that few seem to realize: that CF adoption has grown by 20% on average between 2012 and 2017. That is an acknowledgement that while of course some have left CF (for all the aforementioned reasons in this thread and others, some justified and some perhaps misinformed/chicken little), clearly more have ADOPTED CF than have left it. You don’t hear that ever that sort of positive observation in any of the long-winded discussions which inevitably arise when this question is debated, which as Steve noted has sincerely been going on since the early 200’s. It’s great when there can be a reasoned discussion, as is happening here. It’s just too bad that it often happens elsewhere with only overwhelming negativity from those who either have left or feel compelled to persuade all listeners that “any thinking person” should. There are indeed more affirming points, like the Adobe CF Summit conference in Nov which grows in size each year. But there are surely plenty of challenges. I’m just saying it’s not as bad as many/most seem to want to make it out to be. BTW, as for the jobs issue I addressed that, pointing to resources offering hundreds of them (still today), in a recent post: http://www.carehart.org/blog/client/index.cfm/2007/3/11/FInding-ColdFusion-Jobs /charlie From: houcfug@googlegroups.com<mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com> [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com<mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf Of Gary McNeel Sent: Wednesday, August 2, 2017 05:40 AM To: Houston ColdFusion Users' Group mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com>> Subject: Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question Yes, that is what I see. I guess, as a non-hardcore-developer, more of an idea/product manager type, I find it perfect for my needs. Sadly, there may not be many of 'me' out here. At Jacob's I began to see the move to SharePoint withing NASA and moved us to .NET, which took some doing, as everyone, for the most part, was CF. But, like you, I missed many of the convenient bits and found the added complexity of .NET, in someways, more time consuming. Thanks for the lucid reply. I will keep doing my first pass on this app in CF, asking you guys for help as long as people monitor the group ;) and if it works okay hire someone to move i
Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
Sure! Come on over! I live in Fort Myers and my "local" CFUG is http://www.cfug-sfl.org which used to meet 150 miles across Alligator Alley in Miami. Now, they meet virtually. On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 4:13 PM, Gary McNeel wrote: > Ok, so the first meeting is hosted by John in Florida! > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 12:59 PM, John M Bliss > wrote: > >> I wish. I enjoy lurking here but I moved to Florida. >> >> On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Ken Auenson, II >> wrote: >> >>> Since we are having the most active discussion in a while, I was >>> wondering if anyone would be up for reviving the local, in person, meetings >>> for the group? >>> >>> I would gladly host meetings anytime at The Humble Makers (makerspace in >>> NE Houston). This is at 59N and 1960, so not as convenient for some... But >>> there are a lot of people in North Houston or who don't mind making the >>> drive, so I thought I would put this question out there... >>> >>> On Aug 2, 2017 12:37 PM, "charlie arehart" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> And Gary, as for google results often being old ones, well, consider >>>> first that some answers from back then may be as good now as then. Indeed, >>>> google ranks a result based on (among many other things of course) how >>>> often people open it and then don’t proceed to open another in the given >>>> search result list. They figure if people don’t go to another, it must be >>>> authoritative (or at least adequate). >>>> >>>> Sadly that does mean that sometimes old, stinky answers do remain >>>> popular, despite being outdated. This is of course not unique to CF, but it >>>> adds to the situation you observed. >>>> >>>> And not taking away from Billy’s reasonable observations, there is a >>>> lot more positive about CF than you usually hear. As John pointed out, >>>> this whole week Adobe is giving several webinars on various facets of >>>> CF2016. The recording will be posted likely next week. >>>> >>>> And the first one was an overview by the Product Manager, Rakshith, >>>> where he both addressed your very concerns, and also highlighted recent >>>> improvements, and touted what’s planned for CF2018. >>>> >>>> But he also pointed out a point that few seem to realize: that CF >>>> adoption has grown by 20% on average between 2012 and 2017. That is an >>>> acknowledgement that while of course some have left CF (for all the >>>> aforementioned reasons in this thread and others, some justified and some >>>> perhaps misinformed/chicken little), clearly more have ADOPTED CF than have >>>> left it. >>>> >>>> You don’t hear that ever that sort of positive observation in any of >>>> the long-winded discussions which inevitably arise when this question is >>>> debated, which as Steve noted has sincerely been going on since the early >>>> 200’s. It’s great when there can be a reasoned discussion, as is happening >>>> here. It’s just too bad that it often happens elsewhere with only >>>> overwhelming negativity from those who either have left or feel compelled >>>> to persuade all listeners that “any thinking person” should. >>>> >>>> There are indeed more affirming points, like the Adobe CF Summit >>>> conference in Nov which grows in size each year. But there are surely >>>> plenty of challenges. I’m just saying it’s not as bad as many/most seem to >>>> want to make it out to be. >>>> >>>> BTW, as for the jobs issue I addressed that, pointing to resources >>>> offering hundreds of them (still today), in a recent post: >>>> >>>> http://www.carehart.org/blog/client/index.cfm/2007/3/11/FInd >>>> ing-ColdFusion-Jobs >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> /charlie >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] *On >>>> Behalf Of *Gary McNeel >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 2, 2017 05:40 AM >>>> *To:* Houston ColdFusion Users' Group >>>> *Subject:* Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes, that is what I see. I guess, as a non-hardcore-developer, more of >>>> an idea/product manager type, I find it perfect for my needs. Sadly, there >>>> may not be ma
Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
Ok, so the first meeting is hosted by John in Florida! On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 12:59 PM, John M Bliss wrote: > I wish. I enjoy lurking here but I moved to Florida. > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Ken Auenson, II > wrote: > >> Since we are having the most active discussion in a while, I was >> wondering if anyone would be up for reviving the local, in person, meetings >> for the group? >> >> I would gladly host meetings anytime at The Humble Makers (makerspace in >> NE Houston). This is at 59N and 1960, so not as convenient for some... But >> there are a lot of people in North Houston or who don't mind making the >> drive, so I thought I would put this question out there... >> >> On Aug 2, 2017 12:37 PM, "charlie arehart" >> wrote: >> >>> And Gary, as for google results often being old ones, well, consider >>> first that some answers from back then may be as good now as then. Indeed, >>> google ranks a result based on (among many other things of course) how >>> often people open it and then don’t proceed to open another in the given >>> search result list. They figure if people don’t go to another, it must be >>> authoritative (or at least adequate). >>> >>> Sadly that does mean that sometimes old, stinky answers do remain >>> popular, despite being outdated. This is of course not unique to CF, but it >>> adds to the situation you observed. >>> >>> And not taking away from Billy’s reasonable observations, there is a lot >>> more positive about CF than you usually hear. As John pointed out, this >>> whole week Adobe is giving several webinars on various facets of CF2016. >>> The recording will be posted likely next week. >>> >>> And the first one was an overview by the Product Manager, Rakshith, >>> where he both addressed your very concerns, and also highlighted recent >>> improvements, and touted what’s planned for CF2018. >>> >>> But he also pointed out a point that few seem to realize: that CF >>> adoption has grown by 20% on average between 2012 and 2017. That is an >>> acknowledgement that while of course some have left CF (for all the >>> aforementioned reasons in this thread and others, some justified and some >>> perhaps misinformed/chicken little), clearly more have ADOPTED CF than have >>> left it. >>> >>> You don’t hear that ever that sort of positive observation in any of the >>> long-winded discussions which inevitably arise when this question is >>> debated, which as Steve noted has sincerely been going on since the early >>> 200’s. It’s great when there can be a reasoned discussion, as is happening >>> here. It’s just too bad that it often happens elsewhere with only >>> overwhelming negativity from those who either have left or feel compelled >>> to persuade all listeners that “any thinking person” should. >>> >>> There are indeed more affirming points, like the Adobe CF Summit >>> conference in Nov which grows in size each year. But there are surely >>> plenty of challenges. I’m just saying it’s not as bad as many/most seem to >>> want to make it out to be. >>> >>> BTW, as for the jobs issue I addressed that, pointing to resources >>> offering hundreds of them (still today), in a recent post: >>> >>> http://www.carehart.org/blog/client/index.cfm/2007/3/11/FInd >>> ing-ColdFusion-Jobs >>> >>> >>> >>> /charlie >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] *On >>> Behalf Of *Gary McNeel >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 2, 2017 05:40 AM >>> *To:* Houston ColdFusion Users' Group >>> *Subject:* Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question >>> >>> >>> >>> Yes, that is what I see. I guess, as a non-hardcore-developer, more of >>> an idea/product manager type, I find it perfect for my needs. Sadly, there >>> may not be many of 'me' out here. >>> >>> >>> >>> At Jacob's I began to see the move to SharePoint withing NASA and moved >>> us to .NET, which took some doing, as everyone, for the most part, was CF. >>> But, like you, I missed many of the convenient bits and found the added >>> complexity of .NET, in someways, more time consuming. Thanks for the lucid >>> reply. I will keep doing my first pass on this app in CF, asking you guys >>> for help as long as people monitor the group ;) and if it works
Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
I'm open to that. Obviously I'm on record as the official manager of the group, but when Adobe did their road show or whatever it was (last year?) they didn't even notify me, so I think that says a lot about Adobe support of local user groups. Moreover, as I don't really develop much in CF, and when I do, it's supporting our code running on Lucee, not ACF. At the same time, you'll recall that our meetings were for the longest time me coming up with something to talk about. While I'm open to contributing and even speaking, I feel the user group will be most successful if those who are using CF day-to-day are active participants in those meetings. Then again, the now defunct DFWCFUG's largest meeting ever was when Hal Helms presented on Rails for CF developers, so I'd be open to doing that :-) Billy Cravens On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Ken Auenson, II wrote: > Since we are having the most active discussion in a while, I was wondering > if anyone would be up for reviving the local, in person, meetings for the > group? > > I would gladly host meetings anytime at The Humble Makers (makerspace in > NE Houston). This is at 59N and 1960, so not as convenient for some... But > there are a lot of people in North Houston or who don't mind making the > drive, so I thought I would put this question out there... > > On Aug 2, 2017 12:37 PM, "charlie arehart" > wrote: > >> And Gary, as for google results often being old ones, well, consider >> first that some answers from back then may be as good now as then. Indeed, >> google ranks a result based on (among many other things of course) how >> often people open it and then don’t proceed to open another in the given >> search result list. They figure if people don’t go to another, it must be >> authoritative (or at least adequate). >> >> Sadly that does mean that sometimes old, stinky answers do remain >> popular, despite being outdated. This is of course not unique to CF, but it >> adds to the situation you observed. >> >> And not taking away from Billy’s reasonable observations, there is a lot >> more positive about CF than you usually hear. As John pointed out, this >> whole week Adobe is giving several webinars on various facets of CF2016. >> The recording will be posted likely next week. >> >> And the first one was an overview by the Product Manager, Rakshith, where >> he both addressed your very concerns, and also highlighted recent >> improvements, and touted what’s planned for CF2018. >> >> But he also pointed out a point that few seem to realize: that CF >> adoption has grown by 20% on average between 2012 and 2017. That is an >> acknowledgement that while of course some have left CF (for all the >> aforementioned reasons in this thread and others, some justified and some >> perhaps misinformed/chicken little), clearly more have ADOPTED CF than have >> left it. >> >> You don’t hear that ever that sort of positive observation in any of the >> long-winded discussions which inevitably arise when this question is >> debated, which as Steve noted has sincerely been going on since the early >> 200’s. It’s great when there can be a reasoned discussion, as is happening >> here. It’s just too bad that it often happens elsewhere with only >> overwhelming negativity from those who either have left or feel compelled >> to persuade all listeners that “any thinking person” should. >> >> There are indeed more affirming points, like the Adobe CF Summit >> conference in Nov which grows in size each year. But there are surely >> plenty of challenges. I’m just saying it’s not as bad as many/most seem to >> want to make it out to be. >> >> BTW, as for the jobs issue I addressed that, pointing to resources >> offering hundreds of them (still today), in a recent post: >> >> http://www.carehart.org/blog/client/index.cfm/2007/3/11/FInd >> ing-ColdFusion-Jobs >> >> >> >> /charlie >> >> >> >> *From:* houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] *On >> Behalf Of *Gary McNeel >> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 2, 2017 05:40 AM >> *To:* Houston ColdFusion Users' Group >> *Subject:* Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question >> >> >> >> Yes, that is what I see. I guess, as a non-hardcore-developer, more of an >> idea/product manager type, I find it perfect for my needs. Sadly, there may >> not be many of 'me' out here. >> >> >> >> At Jacob's I began to see the move to SharePoint withing NASA and moved >> us to .NET, which took some doing, as everyone, for
Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
I wish. I enjoy lurking here but I moved to Florida. On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Ken Auenson, II wrote: > Since we are having the most active discussion in a while, I was wondering > if anyone would be up for reviving the local, in person, meetings for the > group? > > I would gladly host meetings anytime at The Humble Makers (makerspace in > NE Houston). This is at 59N and 1960, so not as convenient for some... But > there are a lot of people in North Houston or who don't mind making the > drive, so I thought I would put this question out there... > > On Aug 2, 2017 12:37 PM, "charlie arehart" > wrote: > >> And Gary, as for google results often being old ones, well, consider >> first that some answers from back then may be as good now as then. Indeed, >> google ranks a result based on (among many other things of course) how >> often people open it and then don’t proceed to open another in the given >> search result list. They figure if people don’t go to another, it must be >> authoritative (or at least adequate). >> >> Sadly that does mean that sometimes old, stinky answers do remain >> popular, despite being outdated. This is of course not unique to CF, but it >> adds to the situation you observed. >> >> And not taking away from Billy’s reasonable observations, there is a lot >> more positive about CF than you usually hear. As John pointed out, this >> whole week Adobe is giving several webinars on various facets of CF2016. >> The recording will be posted likely next week. >> >> And the first one was an overview by the Product Manager, Rakshith, where >> he both addressed your very concerns, and also highlighted recent >> improvements, and touted what’s planned for CF2018. >> >> But he also pointed out a point that few seem to realize: that CF >> adoption has grown by 20% on average between 2012 and 2017. That is an >> acknowledgement that while of course some have left CF (for all the >> aforementioned reasons in this thread and others, some justified and some >> perhaps misinformed/chicken little), clearly more have ADOPTED CF than have >> left it. >> >> You don’t hear that ever that sort of positive observation in any of the >> long-winded discussions which inevitably arise when this question is >> debated, which as Steve noted has sincerely been going on since the early >> 200’s. It’s great when there can be a reasoned discussion, as is happening >> here. It’s just too bad that it often happens elsewhere with only >> overwhelming negativity from those who either have left or feel compelled >> to persuade all listeners that “any thinking person” should. >> >> There are indeed more affirming points, like the Adobe CF Summit >> conference in Nov which grows in size each year. But there are surely >> plenty of challenges. I’m just saying it’s not as bad as many/most seem to >> want to make it out to be. >> >> BTW, as for the jobs issue I addressed that, pointing to resources >> offering hundreds of them (still today), in a recent post: >> >> http://www.carehart.org/blog/client/index.cfm/2007/3/11/FInd >> ing-ColdFusion-Jobs >> >> >> >> /charlie >> >> >> >> *From:* houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] *On >> Behalf Of *Gary McNeel >> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 2, 2017 05:40 AM >> *To:* Houston ColdFusion Users' Group >> *Subject:* Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question >> >> >> >> Yes, that is what I see. I guess, as a non-hardcore-developer, more of an >> idea/product manager type, I find it perfect for my needs. Sadly, there may >> not be many of 'me' out here. >> >> >> >> At Jacob's I began to see the move to SharePoint withing NASA and moved >> us to .NET, which took some doing, as everyone, for the most part, was CF. >> But, like you, I missed many of the convenient bits and found the added >> complexity of .NET, in someways, more time consuming. Thanks for the lucid >> reply. I will keep doing my first pass on this app in CF, asking you guys >> for help as long as people monitor the group ;) and if it works okay hire >> someone to move it to another language. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Gary >> >> >> >> -- >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston >> ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. >> To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >> For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/ho
RE: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
Since we are having the most active discussion in a while, I was wondering if anyone would be up for reviving the local, in person, meetings for the group? I would gladly host meetings anytime at The Humble Makers (makerspace in NE Houston). This is at 59N and 1960, so not as convenient for some... But there are a lot of people in North Houston or who don't mind making the drive, so I thought I would put this question out there... On Aug 2, 2017 12:37 PM, "charlie arehart" wrote: > And Gary, as for google results often being old ones, well, consider first > that some answers from back then may be as good now as then. Indeed, google > ranks a result based on (among many other things of course) how often > people open it and then don’t proceed to open another in the given search > result list. They figure if people don’t go to another, it must be > authoritative (or at least adequate). > > Sadly that does mean that sometimes old, stinky answers do remain popular, > despite being outdated. This is of course not unique to CF, but it adds to > the situation you observed. > > And not taking away from Billy’s reasonable observations, there is a lot > more positive about CF than you usually hear. As John pointed out, this > whole week Adobe is giving several webinars on various facets of CF2016. > The recording will be posted likely next week. > > And the first one was an overview by the Product Manager, Rakshith, where > he both addressed your very concerns, and also highlighted recent > improvements, and touted what’s planned for CF2018. > > But he also pointed out a point that few seem to realize: that CF adoption > has grown by 20% on average between 2012 and 2017. That is an > acknowledgement that while of course some have left CF (for all the > aforementioned reasons in this thread and others, some justified and some > perhaps misinformed/chicken little), clearly more have ADOPTED CF than have > left it. > > You don’t hear that ever that sort of positive observation in any of the > long-winded discussions which inevitably arise when this question is > debated, which as Steve noted has sincerely been going on since the early > 200’s. It’s great when there can be a reasoned discussion, as is happening > here. It’s just too bad that it often happens elsewhere with only > overwhelming negativity from those who either have left or feel compelled > to persuade all listeners that “any thinking person” should. > > There are indeed more affirming points, like the Adobe CF Summit > conference in Nov which grows in size each year. But there are surely > plenty of challenges. I’m just saying it’s not as bad as many/most seem to > want to make it out to be. > > BTW, as for the jobs issue I addressed that, pointing to resources > offering hundreds of them (still today), in a recent post: > > http://www.carehart.org/blog/client/index.cfm/2007/3/11/ > FInding-ColdFusion-Jobs > > > > /charlie > > > > *From:* houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Gary McNeel > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 2, 2017 05:40 AM > *To:* Houston ColdFusion Users' Group > *Subject:* Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question > > > > Yes, that is what I see. I guess, as a non-hardcore-developer, more of an > idea/product manager type, I find it perfect for my needs. Sadly, there may > not be many of 'me' out here. > > > > At Jacob's I began to see the move to SharePoint withing NASA and moved us > to .NET, which took some doing, as everyone, for the most part, was CF. > But, like you, I missed many of the convenient bits and found the added > complexity of .NET, in someways, more time consuming. Thanks for the lucid > reply. I will keep doing my first pass on this app in CF, asking you guys > for help as long as people monitor the group ;) and if it works okay hire > someone to move it to another language. > > > > Regards, > > Gary > > > > -- > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston > ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. > To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/houcfug?hl=en > > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to houcfug+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. To unsubscribe, send
RE: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
And Gary, as for google results often being old ones, well, consider first that some answers from back then may be as good now as then. Indeed, google ranks a result based on (among many other things of course) how often people open it and then don’t proceed to open another in the given search result list. They figure if people don’t go to another, it must be authoritative (or at least adequate). Sadly that does mean that sometimes old, stinky answers do remain popular, despite being outdated. This is of course not unique to CF, but it adds to the situation you observed. And not taking away from Billy’s reasonable observations, there is a lot more positive about CF than you usually hear. As John pointed out, this whole week Adobe is giving several webinars on various facets of CF2016. The recording will be posted likely next week. And the first one was an overview by the Product Manager, Rakshith, where he both addressed your very concerns, and also highlighted recent improvements, and touted what’s planned for CF2018. But he also pointed out a point that few seem to realize: that CF adoption has grown by 20% on average between 2012 and 2017. That is an acknowledgement that while of course some have left CF (for all the aforementioned reasons in this thread and others, some justified and some perhaps misinformed/chicken little), clearly more have ADOPTED CF than have left it. You don’t hear that ever that sort of positive observation in any of the long-winded discussions which inevitably arise when this question is debated, which as Steve noted has sincerely been going on since the early 200’s. It’s great when there can be a reasoned discussion, as is happening here. It’s just too bad that it often happens elsewhere with only overwhelming negativity from those who either have left or feel compelled to persuade all listeners that “any thinking person” should. There are indeed more affirming points, like the Adobe CF Summit conference in Nov which grows in size each year. But there are surely plenty of challenges. I’m just saying it’s not as bad as many/most seem to want to make it out to be. BTW, as for the jobs issue I addressed that, pointing to resources offering hundreds of them (still today), in a recent post: http://www.carehart.org/blog/client/index.cfm/2007/3/11/FInding-ColdFusion-Jobs /charlie From: houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary McNeel Sent: Wednesday, August 2, 2017 05:40 AM To: Houston ColdFusion Users' Group Subject: Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question Yes, that is what I see. I guess, as a non-hardcore-developer, more of an idea/product manager type, I find it perfect for my needs. Sadly, there may not be many of 'me' out here. At Jacob's I began to see the move to SharePoint withing NASA and moved us to .NET, which took some doing, as everyone, for the most part, was CF. But, like you, I missed many of the convenient bits and found the added complexity of .NET, in someways, more time consuming. Thanks for the lucid reply. I will keep doing my first pass on this app in CF, asking you guys for help as long as people monitor the group ;) and if it works okay hire someone to move it to another language. Regards, Gary -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/houcfug?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to houcfug+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
Yes, that is what I see. I guess, as a non-hardcore-developer, more of an idea/product manager type, I find it perfect for my needs. Sadly, there may not be many of 'me' out here. At Jacob's I began to see the move to SharePoint withing NASA and moved us to .NET, which took some doing, as everyone, for the most part, was CF. But, like you, I missed many of the convenient bits and found the added complexity of .NET, in someways, more time consuming. Thanks for the lucid reply. I will keep doing my first pass on this app in CF, asking you guys for help as long as people monitor the group ;) and if it works okay hire someone to move it to another language. Regards, Gary On Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 5:09:51 AM UTC-5, Billy Cravens wrote: > > There's aren't a lot of companies moving existing apps to a different > language, so there's still CF jobs. However, many of those companies also > use other platforms. It's challenging to a be a CF-only developer I'd say. > > I don't think there's a lot of new development in CF. There's not many new > frameworks, or new libraries coming out. So there's not many new problems > to solve in CF, hence the stale Google results. > > Development is always evolving. Today's trends: devops, Docker, > microservices, single-page apps, etc. CFML hasn't adopted well to that new > world, and Adobe's commercial offering especially. For example, I stood up > a small microservice in Lucee on Docker just a little while ago, just a PDF > generator. I was seeing 400mb of memory usage, and saturating the CPU with > just a few requests. (Not sure how ACF would respond) The same thing in > node.js, or Ruby, would probably run in under 100mb of RAM, and handle many > concurrent requests. > > Moreover, I don't think the ecosystem has built up around CF like other > platforms. Everything is driven by languages with rich package ecosystems. > (Ruby Gems, NPM, Rust crates, etc) Rich services that support your language > of choice - CI, bug tracking, static analysis, APM - you'll find these for > Ruby, Node, Go, etc. This is partially a vendor issue, and partially a > language issue (for example, the hoops you have to jump through just to > configure your app using environment variables - in CF you have load the > Java class for doing so, in most languages it's a first class variable, > like ENV['my_variable'] > > The ecosystem is what led me to take my company's stack from CF to Ruby. > > There's a lot of great features I miss from CF: a web-based admin, > simplified structs, in-memory SQL support (query of query), the rich PDF > engine, easy iterators, a simplified querying model, etc. At the end of the > day, a few features and dogmatic adherence to a platform weren't enough, > and I really feel like CF wasn't the most optimal solution for our > software. > > I don't think CF is dying, as much as it's in a legacy ramp-down. > > > Billy Cravens > > > On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 9:54 PM, Gary McNeel > wrote: > >> Yes, I am not knocking it. I have just been out of using CF for about 10+ >> years so have not kept abreast of the changes. I do remember when CF was >> pretty robust and there was a lot of tech related forum activity. I was a >> bit stunned when I looked for help with things on Google and all the posts >> are about 5+ years old. Just curious. >> >> Gary >> >> On Tuesday, August 1, 2017 at 9:23:41 PM UTC-5, Steve Parks - Adept >> Developer wrote: >>> >>> Not sure about Adobe’s plan. Definitely small market share but it >>> always has been. Still lots of big companies using it, but the job market >>> is low. I still get lots of CF projects, so I’ve stuck with it. Btw, >>> they’ve been asking is CF dead since ASP Classic was popular. lol >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* hou...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hou...@googlegroups.com] *On >>> Behalf Of *Gary McNeel >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 1, 2017 9:16 PM >>> *To:* Houston ColdFusion Users' Group >>> *Subject:* [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question >>> >>> >>> >>> All, >>> >>> >>> >>> I started using ColdFusion back when a tech call got Jeremy Allaire - >>> mostly because I was not a programmer and needed to program. That was in >>> 1995. So I used CF on and off for about 14 years then we did C# .NET >>> development. >>> >>> >>> >>> What I liked about CF, for me anyway, was the rapid speed at which I >>>
Fwd: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
There's aren't a lot of companies moving existing apps to a different language, so there's still CF jobs. However, many of those companies also use other platforms. It's challenging to a be a CF-only developer I'd say. I don't think there's a lot of new development in CF. There's not many new frameworks, or new libraries coming out. So there's not many new problems to solve in CF, hence the stale Google results. Development is always evolving. Today's trends: devops, Docker, microservices, single-page apps, etc. CFML hasn't adopted well to that new world, and Adobe's commercial offering especially. For example, I stood up a small microservice in Lucee on Docker just a little while ago, just a PDF generator. I was seeing 400mb of memory usage, and saturating the CPU with just a few requests. (Not sure how ACF would respond) The same thing in node.js, or Ruby, would probably run in under 100mb of RAM, and handle many concurrent requests. Moreover, I don't think the ecosystem has built up around CF like other platforms. Everything is driven by languages with rich package ecosystems. (Ruby Gems, NPM, Rust crates, etc) Rich services that support your language of choice - CI, bug tracking, static analysis, APM - you'll find these for Ruby, Node, Go, etc. This is partially a vendor issue, and partially a language issue (for example, the hoops you have to jump through just to configure your app using environment variables - in CF you have load the Java class for doing so, in most languages it's a first class variable, like ENV['my_variable'] The ecosystem is what led me to take my company's stack from CF to Ruby. There's a lot of great features I miss from CF: a web-based admin, simplified structs, in-memory SQL support (query of query), the rich PDF engine, easy iterators, a simplified querying model, etc. At the end of the day, a few features and dogmatic adherence to a platform weren't enough, and I really feel like CF wasn't the most optimal solution for our software. I don't think CF is dying, as much as it's in a legacy ramp-down. Billy Cravens On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 9:54 PM, Gary McNeel wrote: > Yes, I am not knocking it. I have just been out of using CF for about 10+ > years so have not kept abreast of the changes. I do remember when CF was > pretty robust and there was a lot of tech related forum activity. I was a > bit stunned when I looked for help with things on Google and all the posts > are about 5+ years old. Just curious. > > Gary > > On Tuesday, August 1, 2017 at 9:23:41 PM UTC-5, Steve Parks - Adept > Developer wrote: >> >> Not sure about Adobe’s plan. Definitely small market share but it always >> has been. Still lots of big companies using it, but the job market is >> low. I still get lots of CF projects, so I’ve stuck with it. Btw, they’ve >> been asking is CF dead since ASP Classic was popular. lol >> >> >> >> *From:* hou...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hou...@googlegroups.com] *On >> Behalf Of *Gary McNeel >> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 1, 2017 9:16 PM >> *To:* Houston ColdFusion Users' Group >> *Subject:* [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question >> >> >> >> All, >> >> >> >> I started using ColdFusion back when a tech call got Jeremy Allaire - >> mostly because I was not a programmer and needed to program. That was in >> 1995. So I used CF on and off for about 14 years then we did C# .NET >> development. >> >> >> >> What I liked about CF, for me anyway, was the rapid speed at which I >> could develop. When I was at Jacobs Technology we used it on NASA projects >> as it was used throughout NASA. But around 2010 that began to change and >> NASA, using much more SharePoint, began to move to .NET. >> >> >> >> So what gives? I guess I lost track of what was happening with CF along >> the way. Is it dying? Technologically getting obsolete? Is Adobe going to >> dump it? What has anyone heard. >> >> >> >> It is a terrible shame as it works great from my perspective. I am >> developing a pet project now and just wondering if I should keep going >> forward with CF. Thoughts? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Gary McNeel >> >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/gmcneel/ >> >> -- >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston >> ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. >> To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-u...@googlegroups.com >> For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/houcfug?hl=en >> >> --- >> You received this message
Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
Yes, I am not knocking it. I have just been out of using CF for about 10+ years so have not kept abreast of the changes. I do remember when CF was pretty robust and there was a lot of tech related forum activity. I was a bit stunned when I looked for help with things on Google and all the posts are about 5+ years old. Just curious. Gary On Tuesday, August 1, 2017 at 9:23:41 PM UTC-5, Steve Parks - Adept Developer wrote: > > Not sure about Adobe’s plan. Definitely small market share but it always > has been. Still lots of big companies using it, but the job market is > low. I still get lots of CF projects, so I’ve stuck with it. Btw, they’ve > been asking is CF dead since ASP Classic was popular. lol > > > > *From:* hou...@googlegroups.com [mailto: > hou...@googlegroups.com ] *On Behalf Of *Gary McNeel > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 1, 2017 9:16 PM > *To:* Houston ColdFusion Users' Group > > *Subject:* [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question > > > > All, > > > > I started using ColdFusion back when a tech call got Jeremy Allaire - > mostly because I was not a programmer and needed to program. That was in > 1995. So I used CF on and off for about 14 years then we did C# .NET > development. > > > > What I liked about CF, for me anyway, was the rapid speed at which I could > develop. When I was at Jacobs Technology we used it on NASA projects as it > was used throughout NASA. But around 2010 that began to change and NASA, > using much more SharePoint, began to move to .NET. > > > > So what gives? I guess I lost track of what was happening with CF along > the way. Is it dying? Technologically getting obsolete? Is Adobe going to > dump it? What has anyone heard. > > > > It is a terrible shame as it works great from my perspective. I am > developing a pet project now and just wondering if I should keep going > forward with CF. Thoughts? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Gary McNeel > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/gmcneel/ > > -- > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston > ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. > To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-u...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/houcfug?hl=en > > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to houcfug+u...@googlegroups.com . > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/houcfug?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to houcfug+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
Check out https://cfdevweek.meetus.adobeevents.com/ happening this week. Lots of great info. Short answer: CF has 400+ jobs on Indeed. Dead is in the eye of the beholder. I've been a very well-paid, primarily CF developer since 1996. I'm also a DBA, sysadmin, data analyst, and I'm getting my MBA. On Tue, Aug 1, 2017, 10:16 PM Gary McNeel wrote: > All, > > I started using ColdFusion back when a tech call got Jeremy Allaire - > mostly because I was not a programmer and needed to program. That was in > 1995. So I used CF on and off for about 14 years then we did C# .NET > development. > > What I liked about CF, for me anyway, was the rapid speed at which I could > develop. When I was at Jacobs Technology we used it on NASA projects as it > was used throughout NASA. But around 2010 that began to change and NASA, > using much more SharePoint, began to move to .NET. > > So what gives? I guess I lost track of what was happening with CF along > the way. Is it dying? Technologically getting obsolete? Is Adobe going to > dump it? What has anyone heard. > > It is a terrible shame as it works great from my perspective. I am > developing a pet project now and just wondering if I should keep going > forward with CF. Thoughts? > > Thanks, > > Gary McNeel > https://www.linkedin.com/in/gmcneel/ > > -- > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston > ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. > To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/houcfug?hl=en > > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to houcfug+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/houcfug?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to houcfug+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
Not sure about Adobe’s plan. Definitely small market share but it always has been. Still lots of big companies using it, but the job market is low. I still get lots of CF projects, so I’ve stuck with it. Btw, they’ve been asking is CF dead since ASP Classic was popular. lol From: houcfug@googlegroups.com [mailto:houcfug@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary McNeel Sent: Tuesday, August 1, 2017 9:16 PM To: Houston ColdFusion Users' Group Subject: [houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question All, I started using ColdFusion back when a tech call got Jeremy Allaire - mostly because I was not a programmer and needed to program. That was in 1995. So I used CF on and off for about 14 years then we did C# .NET development. What I liked about CF, for me anyway, was the rapid speed at which I could develop. When I was at Jacobs Technology we used it on NASA projects as it was used throughout NASA. But around 2010 that began to change and NASA, using much more SharePoint, began to move to .NET. So what gives? I guess I lost track of what was happening with CF along the way. Is it dying? Technologically getting obsolete? Is Adobe going to dump it? What has anyone heard. It is a terrible shame as it works great from my perspective. I am developing a pet project now and just wondering if I should keep going forward with CF. Thoughts? Thanks, Gary McNeel https://www.linkedin.com/in/gmcneel/ -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<mailto:houcfug-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com> For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/houcfug?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to houcfug+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<mailto:houcfug+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/houcfug?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to houcfug+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[houcfug] Coldfusion DEAD Question
All, I started using ColdFusion back when a tech call got Jeremy Allaire - mostly because I was not a programmer and needed to program. That was in 1995. So I used CF on and off for about 14 years then we did C# .NET development. What I liked about CF, for me anyway, was the rapid speed at which I could develop. When I was at Jacobs Technology we used it on NASA projects as it was used throughout NASA. But around 2010 that began to change and NASA, using much more SharePoint, began to move to .NET. So what gives? I guess I lost track of what was happening with CF along the way. Is it dying? Technologically getting obsolete? Is Adobe going to dump it? What has anyone heard. It is a terrible shame as it works great from my perspective. I am developing a pet project now and just wondering if I should keep going forward with CF. Thoughts? Thanks, Gary McNeel https://www.linkedin.com/in/gmcneel/ -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" discussion list. To unsubscribe, send email to houcfug-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/houcfug?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Houston ColdFusion Users' Group" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to houcfug+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
