Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 04/09/2008 at 09:52 AM, Kelman, Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Hmmm, are we comparing languages a little bit here? When I was an undergraduate student at Ga. Tech (many years ago) the school computer was a Burroughs 5500. When I went back for my Masters in Computer Science that machine was the Computer Science Department's play toy. It was an interesting machine since it had plug-n-play before plug-n-play. You'd create a small gen with necessary devices like the card reader and punch. Then when you IPL'd the system would just look around to determine what other devices were attached to it. The language used was ALGOL. In fact the operating system itself was written in ALGOL. ITYM a combination of Extended ALGOL, DC ALGOL and ESPOL. I always felt that it was a very powerful language ALOGOL 60 wasn't all that pwerful. Don't judge it by Extended ALGOL. and was sorry it didn't catch on better. The ACM doesn't even use it as an algotithm publication language any more. They've replaced it with languages much less suitable. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Arellanes Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 12:21 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct? I gotta ask this, hope you don't mind. Why is the code generation for fullword binary so weird? Try TRUNC(OPT), you will get: LH2,14(0,10) PGMLIT AT +10 A 2,0(0,8)MYDATA ST2,0(0,8)MYDATA See the COBOL Performance Tuning paper at http://www- 306.ibm.com/software/awdtools/cobol/library/ for more info on the TRUNC compiler option, as well as the performance implications of using the various suboptions of TRUNC. Rick Arellanes (IBM COBOL Development and Performance) Thanks. COBOL really confuses me at times. I'm going to double check what our TRUNC option is. On my 3.4.1 compile, I guess since I used a literal, I got the code: LA5,1(0,0) A 5,0(0,2)MYDATA ST5,0(0,2)MYDATA -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Hmmm, are we comparing languages a little bit here? When I was an undergraduate student at Ga. Tech (many years ago) the school computer was a Burroughs 5500. When I went back for my Masters in Computer Science that machine was the Computer Science Department's play toy. It was an interesting machine since it had plug-n-play before plug-n-play. You'd create a small gen with necessary devices like the card reader and punch. Then when you IPL'd the system would just look around to determine what other devices were attached to it. The language used was ALGOL. In fact the operating system itself was written in ALGOL. I always felt that it was a very powerful language and was sorry it didn't catch on better. Tom Kelman Commerce Bank of Kansas City (816) 760-7632 -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 3:12 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct? PL/1 is the UnCOBOL When I was a UofW student in the mid-1970's, they offered a PL/I course, but (for some reason) it was a non-credit course for Math/CS students. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html * If you wish to communicate securely with Commerce Bank and its affiliates, you must log into your account under Online Services at http://www.commercebank.com or use the Commerce Bank Secure Email Message Center at https://securemail.commercebank.com NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attached files are confidential. The information is exclusively for the use of the individual or entity intended as the recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, printing, reviewing, retention, disclosure, distribution or forwarding of the message or any attached file is not authorized and is strictly prohibited. If you have received this electronic mail message in error, please advise the sender by reply electronic mail immediately and permanently delete the original transmission, any attachments and any copies of this message from your computer system. * -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
(fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
(I believe this was a major factor in the demise of COBOL; I just cannot resist responding to this (sorry I am so late, I was out of the office for 2 weeks). I work on the IBM COBOL compiler, and if you could see the amount of interest, the number of compiler licenses, the sheer number of COBOL programmers on IBM Mainframes doing new work everyday in COBOL, you would never say such a thing. For example, we are being overwhelmed with requests to continue our improvements for XML support in COBOL, it has been the most quickly adopted new feature of COBOL in my quarter century as an IBM COBOL compiler developer. COBOL is more alive today than it was 10 years ago! Demise indeed... Cheers, TomR COBOL is the Language of the Future! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
--snip--- COBOL is the Language of the Future! unsnip--- PL/1 is the UnCOBOL :-) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Funny thing - I was just writing about COBOL yesterday: Is COBOL like Oil? : http://www.cicsworld.com/node/559 Thanks Corneel Booysen. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Howard Brazee Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 2:19 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct? On 8 Apr 2008 10:55:13 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tom Ross) wrote: I work on the IBM COBOL compiler, and if you could see the amount of interest, the number of compiler licenses, the sheer number of COBOL programmers on IBM Mainframes doing new work everyday in COBOL, you would never say such a thing. For example, we are being overwhelmed with requests to continue our improvements for XML support in COBOL, it has been the most quickly adopted new feature of COBOL in my quarter century as an IBM COBOL compiler developer. COBOL is more alive today than it was 10 years ago! Demise indeed... It's certainly not dead - but its share is dropping as alternative tools do more tasks. I don't think it is more alive today than it was 10 years ago. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Ross Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 12:50 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct? (I believe this was a major factor in the demise of COBOL; I just cannot resist responding to this (sorry I am so late, I was out of the office for 2 weeks). I work on the IBM COBOL compiler, and if you could see the amount of interest, the number of compiler licenses, the sheer number of COBOL programmers on IBM Mainframes doing new work everyday in COBOL, you would never say such a thing. For example, we are being overwhelmed with requests to continue our improvements for XML support in COBOL, it has been the most quickly adopted new feature of COBOL in my quarter century as an IBM COBOL compiler developer. COBOL is more alive today than it was 10 years ago! Demise indeed... Cheers, TomR COBOL is the Language of the Future! Tom, I gotta ask this, hope you don't mind. Why is the code generation for fullword binary so weird? I have: 77 MYDATA PIC S9(8) BINARY. .. ADD +1 TO MYDATA The code generated is terrible (to me): L 6,0(0,2)MYDATA SRDA 6,32(0) LH0,22(0,10) PGMLIT AT +10 SRDA 0,32(0) AR6,0 ALR 7,1 BC12,164(0,11)GN=17(0002D8) A 6,0(0,12) SYSLIT AT +0 GN=17EQU * ST7,0(0,2)MYDATA Why is COBOL doing 64 bit arithmetic? Why the BC around the A when the contents of register 6 are ignored? This is with TRUNC(BIN). With TRUNC(STD), I get: LH7,22(0,10) PGMLIT AT +10 (halfword H'1') A 7,0(0,2)MYDATA LR6,7 SRDA 6,32(0) D 6,4(0,12) SYSLIT AT +4 ST6,0(0,2)MYDATA which is much better, but still confusing. In my own code, a simple: L 6,MYDATA A 6,PLUS1 ST 6,MYDATA suffices. Or, going with what would be more similar to COBOL's code: LH 7,=H'+1' A 7,MYDATA ST 7,MYDATA what is with the SRDA and D? I cannot determine what SYSLIT+4 is because it looks like x'05F5E100' which makes NO sense to me. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Grace Hopper would be proud...! Charles S. Kammer -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Ross Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 12:50 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct? (I believe this was a major factor in the demise of COBOL; I just cannot resist responding to this (sorry I am so late, I was out of the office for 2 weeks). I work on the IBM COBOL compiler, and if you could see the amount of interest, the number of compiler licenses, the sheer number of COBOL programmers on IBM Mainframes doing new work everyday in COBOL, you would never say such a thing. For example, we are being overwhelmed with requests to continue our improvements for XML support in COBOL, it has been the most quickly adopted new feature of COBOL in my quarter century as an IBM COBOL compiler developer. COBOL is more alive today than it was 10 years ago! Demise indeed... Cheers, TomR COBOL is the Language of the Future! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
PL/1 is the UnCOBOL When I was a UofW student in the mid-1970's, they offered a PL/I course, but (for some reason) it was a non-credit course for Math/CS students. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
COBOL is more alive today than it was 10 years ago! Demise indeed... Having recently been downsized from a COBOL shop, I agree. Some of them can create COBOL code to do things faster than I can do it in SAS. And, I have been doing SAS for almost 30 years. Long live COBOL (or for Galactica fans -- the Lords of [K]COBOL). I haven't written more than two programmes in COBOL in over 25 years, but I can see it's not going away. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
With TRUNC(STD), I put my money on the SYSLIT AT +4 being a binary fullword with 10**8 since the ST into MYDATA is storing the remainder of the divide. With TRUNC(BIN), this is consistent w/the behaviour of IBM Enterprise COBOL for z/OS 3.4.1 not using any 64 bit-era instruction, e.g. relative addressing and halfword immediate. Since you show only R7 being stored, the A R6 is superfluous. IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU wrote on 04/08/2008 02:25:14 PM: I gotta ask this, hope you don't mind. Why is the code generation for fullword binary so weird? I have: 77 MYDATA PIC S9(8) BINARY. .. ADD +1 TO MYDATA The code generated is terrible (to me): L 6,0(0,2)MYDATA SRDA 6,32(0) LH0,22(0,10) PGMLIT AT +10 SRDA 0,32(0) AR6,0 ALR 7,1 BC12,164(0,11)GN=17(0002D8) A 6,0(0,12) SYSLIT AT +0 GN=17EQU * ST7,0(0,2)MYDATA Why is COBOL doing 64 bit arithmetic? Why the BC around the A when the contents of register 6 are ignored? This is with TRUNC(BIN). With TRUNC(STD), I get: LH7,22(0,10) PGMLIT AT +10 (halfword H'1') A 7,0(0,2)MYDATA LR6,7 SRDA 6,32(0) D 6,4(0,12) SYSLIT AT +4 ST6,0(0,2)MYDATA which is much better, but still confusing. In my own code, a simple: L 6,MYDATA A 6,PLUS1 ST 6,MYDATA suffices. Or, going with what would be more similar to COBOL's code: LH 7,=H'+1' A 7,MYDATA ST 7,MYDATA what is with the SRDA and D? I cannot determine what SYSLIT+4 is because it looks like x'05F5E100' which makes NO sense to me. John McKown - The information contained in this communication (including any attachments hereto) is confidential and is intended solely for the personal and confidential use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. The information may also constitute a legally privileged confidential communication. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this communication in error and that any review, dissemination, copying, or unauthorized use of this information, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail, and delete the original message. Thank you -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Tom, I was also under the impression that new development on the mainframe was few and far between. But I ran a poll a while ago and the results was rather surprising. 28% of responded that they are developing new applications in COBOL. (Natural/adabas was 48%.) I was expecting a very low new development count. I'm planning on running the poll again in a few months to see if I can get a wider audience. (link http://www.cicsworld.com/node/198) Regards Ian http://www.cicsworld.com/ On 4/8/08, Tom Ross [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (I believe this was a major factor in the demise of COBOL; I just cannot resist responding to this (sorry I am so late, I was out of the office for 2 weeks). I work on the IBM COBOL compiler, and if you could see the amount of interest, the number of compiler licenses, the sheer number of COBOL programmers on IBM Mainframes doing new work everyday in COBOL, you would never say such a thing. For example, we are being overwhelmed with requests to continue our improvements for XML support in COBOL, it has been the most quickly adopted new feature of COBOL in my quarter century as an IBM COBOL compiler developer. COBOL is more alive today than it was 10 years ago! Demise indeed... Cheers, TomR COBOL is the Language of the Future! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- Ian http://www.cicsworld.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 13:25:14 -0500, McKown, John wrote: 77 MYDATA PIC S9(8) BINARY. .. ADD +1 TO MYDATA In my own code, a simple: L 6,MYDATA A 6,PLUS1 ST 6,MYDATA suffices. John, When you get your nice new z10 you will be able to simplify it even further: ASI MYDATA,1 http://publibfp.boulder.ibm.com/epubs/pdf/dz9zr006.pdf Regards, Roger Bowler Hercules the people's mainframe -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 6:22 PM, Ian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom, I was also under the impression that new development on the mainframe was few and far between. But I ran a poll a while ago and the results was rather surprising. 28% of responded that they are developing new applications in COBOL. (Natural/adabas was 48%.) I was expecting a very low new development count. Yep, I am working on one right now. However, since our major legacy systems are being shoehorned into a COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf) package, it might be the last one for a while. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
On Tue, 8 Apr 2008, Roger Bowler wrote: John, When you get your nice new z10 you will be able to simplify it even further: ASI MYDATA,1 http://publibfp.boulder.ibm.com/epubs/pdf/dz9zr006.pdf Regards, Wishful thinking. Managements avowed purpose in life for 3 separate administrations has been to eliminate the mainframe. How varies, but the desire to do so does not. deleting two paragraphs to avoid immediate termination for insubordination -- Q: What do theoretical physicists drink beer from? A: An EIN stein. Maranatha! John McKown -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
I gotta ask this, hope you don't mind. Why is the code generation for fullword binary so weird? Try TRUNC(OPT), you will get: LH2,14(0,10) PGMLIT AT +10 A 2,0(0,8)MYDATA ST2,0(0,8)MYDATA See the COBOL Performance Tuning paper at http://www- 306.ibm.com/software/awdtools/cobol/library/ for more info on the TRUNC compiler option, as well as the performance implications of using the various suboptions of TRUNC. Rick Arellanes (IBM COBOL Development and Performance) On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 13:25:14 -0500, McKown, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom, I gotta ask this, hope you don't mind. Why is the code generation for fullword binary so weird? I have: 77 MYDATA PIC S9(8) BINARY. .. ADD +1 TO MYDATA The code generated is terrible (to me): L 6,0(0,2)MYDATA SRDA 6,32(0) LH0,22(0,10) PGMLIT AT +10 SRDA 0,32(0) AR6,0 ALR 7,1 BC12,164(0,11)GN=17(0002D8) A 6,0(0,12) SYSLIT AT +0 GN=17EQU * ST7,0(0,2)MYDATA Why is COBOL doing 64 bit arithmetic? Why the BC around the A when the contents of register 6 are ignored? This is with TRUNC(BIN). With TRUNC(STD), I get: LH7,22(0,10) PGMLIT AT +10 (halfword H'1') A 7,0(0,2)MYDATA LR6,7 SRDA 6,32(0) D 6,4(0,12) SYSLIT AT +4 ST6,0(0,2)MYDATA which is much better, but still confusing. In my own code, a simple: L 6,MYDATA A 6,PLUS1 ST 6,MYDATA suffices. Or, going with what would be more similar to COBOL's code: LH 7,=H'+1' A 7,MYDATA ST 7,MYDATA what is with the SRDA and D? I cannot determine what SYSLIT+4 is because it looks like x'05F5E100' which makes NO sense to me. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 03/28/2008 at 09:00 AM, Don Leahy [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: IMO, you don't need permission to *learn* stuff. Only if you don't use their system to test your code. If you do then you have to concern yourself with local policy. Some shops allow it, some don't. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of O'Brien, David W. You missed the point. The previous post to mine mentioned that's it's easier to say 'Sorry' than get permission. My post was meant to warn of the possible ramifications of taking that approach. If I tried to describe the change control approach at my former shop, you most likely would not believe it. Some jobs are not worth having. This was one of them. Sounds like commentary I've heard about the U.S. legal system: Truth and justice are irrelevant, so long as procedure is followed precisely. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 2:15 PM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 03/26/2008 at 08:13 AM, Steve Comstock [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I know the feeling. But we gotta' learn how to do the new stuff on the mainframe, and let management see it. First you have to get management's permission. -- IMO, you don't need permission to *learn* stuff. Implementing what you've learned is another matter. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
---snip- Sounds like commentary I've heard about the U.S. legal system: Truth and justice are irrelevant, so long as procedure is followed precisely. -jc- unsnip--- And the lawyers get their (obscene) fees! :-) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
On 28 Mar 2008 08:17:13 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rick Fochtman) wrote: Sounds like commentary I've heard about the U.S. legal system: Truth and justice are irrelevant, so long as procedure is followed precisely. -jc- unsnip--- And the lawyers get their (obscene) fees! :-) I think due process is the goal of judicial systems most everywhere. And people want predictability more than Truth and Justice. Predictability allows plans to function.Justice might bite us. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Howard Brazee On 28 Mar 2008 08:17:13 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rick Fochtman) wrote: Sounds like commentary I've heard about the U.S. legal system: Truth and justice are irrelevant, so long as procedure is followed precisely. unsnip--- And the lawyers get their (obscene) fees! :-) I think due process is the goal of judicial systems most everywhere. And people want predictability more than Truth and Justice. Predictability allows plans to function.Justice might bite us. Perhaps, to a point. But if you have a program that predictably abends with, say, S913-xx, wouldn't you prefer justice in the form of diagnosing and fixing the cause, rather than get so-and-so to run it? Due process should be a means, not an end. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
On 28 Mar 2008 09:08:48 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Chase, John) wrote: I think due process is the goal of judicial systems most everywhere. And people want predictability more than Truth and Justice. Predictability allows plans to function.Justice might bite us. Perhaps, to a point. But if you have a program that predictably abends with, say, S913-xx, wouldn't you prefer justice in the form of diagnosing and fixing the cause, rather than get so-and-so to run it? Due process should be a means, not an end. I know users who seem more happy with the predictability of knowing how things work - than with the idea of changing to a better way. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 03/26/2008 at 08:13 AM, Steve Comstock [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I know the feeling. But we gotta' learn how to do the new stuff on the mainframe, and let management see it. First you have to get management's permission. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Not sure, but that may have been Steve's point ;-) -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 1:16 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Is IT becoming extinct? In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 03/26/2008 at 08:13 AM, Steve Comstock [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I know the feeling. But we gotta' learn how to do the new stuff on the mainframe, and let management see it. First you have to get management's permission. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any files transmitted with it are intended exclusively for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. The message, together with any attachment, may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, printing, saving, copying, disclosure or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender by reply email and delete all copies. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote: In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 03/26/2008 at 08:13 AM, Steve Comstock [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I know the feeling. But we gotta' learn how to do the new stuff on the mainframe, and let management see it. First you have to get management's permission. Easier to ask forgiveness that to ask permission. Kind regards, -Steve Comstock The Trainer's Friend, Inc. 303-393-8716 http://www.trainersfriend.com z/OS Application development made easier * Our classes include + How things work + Programming examples with realistic applications + Starter / skeleton code + Complete working programs + Useful utilities and subroutines + Tips and techniques == call or email to receive a free sample student handout == -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
snip--- Easier to ask forgiveness that to ask permission. ---unsnip- A big AMEN to that! Highly unfortunate, but true. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Also a good way to get fired when you have 'professional managers' more interested in following change/control procedures than getting the job done. I speak from experience. From: Rick Fochtman [Subject: Re: Is IT becoming extinct? snip--- Easier to ask forgiveness that to ask permission. ---unsnip- A big AMEN to that! Highly unfortunate, but true. -- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Also a good way to get fired when you have 'professional managers' more interested in following change/control procedures than getting the job done. I speak from experience. I am sorry, but I believe in change control. If you can't follow them, it's your problem. A process exists for a reason. Follow it. If it doesn't work change it. But, what right do you have to change the process just because you think it's in the way? - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
You missed the point. The previous post to mine mentioned that's it's easier to say 'Sorry' than get permission. My post was meant to warn of the possible ramifications of taking that approach. If I tried to describe the change control approach at my former shop, you most likely would not believe it. Some jobs are not worth having. This was one of them. From: Ted MacNEIL Sent: Thu 3/27/2008 10:15 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Is IT becoming extinct? Also a good way to get fired when you have 'professional managers' more interested in following change/control procedures than getting the job done. I speak from experience. I am sorry, but I believe in change control. If you can't follow them, it's your problem. A process exists for a reason. Follow it. If it doesn't work change it. But, what right do you have to change the process just because you think it's in the way? - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Ian wrote: I did a polls recently to see what new development is happening on CICS specifically. The result was very surprising. Out of 190 votes only 5% said that they have no new development plans. 48% said that the new development is in Natural 28% said COBOL 1. This is based on 190 votes. Only 190. 2. This thread is about COBOL popularity. IMHO it is quite obvious that CICS environment is biased. As well as mainframe at all (at least z/OS and VSE). It's like asking VSAM users what's your favority operating system?. BTW: Someone mentioned huge value of COBOL code (10T$). 1. How it is measured ? 2. What about other language's value? Maybe this value is only half of C's value? Such number, without any comparison proves nothing. My $0.02 (how it's measured ? g) -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2008 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA wynosi 118.642.672 zote i zosta w caoci wpacony. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL [ snip ] One outsourced their development to India because they couldn't find any new COBOL programmers. At a price they were willing to pay, perhaps -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
couldn't find any new COBOL programmers. At a price they were willing to pay, perhaps Perhaps. But, the main reason is nobody wanted to live there. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
On 26 Mar 2008 07:34:32 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ted MacNEIL) wrote: At a price they were willing to pay, perhaps Perhaps. But, the main reason is nobody wanted to live there. A company has a choice. It can be located where skilled labor is available and expensive - use external labor - or it can train its labor in-house. Training in-house used to be the standard. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
COBOL isn't sexy anymore. High schools are teaching PC stuff. And yet a myriad of code being used is on our mainframes. I once automated myself out of a support job. I am a dinosaur. Daniel McLaughlin Z-Series Systems Programmer Information Communications Technology Crawford Company 4680 N. Royal Atlanta Tucker GA 30084 phone: 770-621-3256 fax: 770-621-3237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.crawfordandcompany.com Best Overall Third-Party Claims Administrator - 2007 Business Insurance Readers Choice Awards Consider the environment before printing this message. This transmission is intended exclusively for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This communication may contain information that is confidential, proprietary, privileged or otherwise exempt from disclosure. If you are not the named addressee, you are NOT authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this communication, its attachments or any part of them. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this communication from all computers. This communication does not form any contractual obligation on behalf of the sender, the sender's employer, or the employer's parent company, affiliates or subsidiaries. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Howard Brazee wrote: On 26 Mar 2008 07:34:32 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ted MacNEIL) wrote: At a price they were willing to pay, perhaps Perhaps. But, the main reason is nobody wanted to live there. A company has a choice. It can be located where skilled labor is available and expensive - use external labor - or it can train its labor in-house. Training in-house used to be the standard. Sigh. Those were the good old days! Kind regards, -Steve Comstock The Trainer's Friend, Inc. 303-393-8716 http://www.trainersfriend.com z/OS Application development made easier * Our classes include + How things work + Programming examples with realistic applications + Starter / skeleton code + Complete working programs + Useful utilities and subroutines + Tips and techniques == call or email to receive a free sample student handout == -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Daniel McLaughlin wrote: COBOL isn't sexy anymore. High schools are teaching PC stuff. And yet a myriad of code being used is on our mainframes. Well, COBOL isn't _percieved_ as sexy anymore. But you can handle ASCII and UNICODE and XML in COBOL. You can code COBOL CGIs to run under your z/OS HTTP. What's sexier than the web these days? I once automated myself out of a support job. I am a dinosaur. I know the feeling. But we gotta' learn how to do the new stuff on the mainframe, and let management see it. Kind regards, -Steve Comstock The Trainer's Friend, Inc. 303-393-8716 http://www.trainersfriend.com z/OS Application development made easier * Our classes include + How things work + Programming examples with realistic applications + Starter / skeleton code + Complete working programs + Useful utilities and subroutines + Tips and techniques == call or email to receive a free sample student handout == -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Misstated - COBOL isn't perceived as sexy ,,, WE have over 500 servers in the room and we call it the chicken farm. Daniel McLaughlin Z-Series Systems Programmer Information Communications Technology Crawford Company 4680 N. Royal Atlanta Tucker GA 30084 phone: 770-621-3256 fax: 770-621-3237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.crawfordandcompany.com IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu wrote on 03/26/2008 11:13:48 AM: -- Information from the mail header --- Sender: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Poster: Steve Comstock [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Is IT becoming extinct? --- Daniel McLaughlin wrote: COBOL isn't sexy anymore. High schools are teaching PC stuff. And yet a myriad of code being used is on our mainframes. Well, COBOL isn't _percieved_ as sexy anymore. But you can handle ASCII and UNICODE and XML in COBOL. You can code COBOL CGIs to run under your z/OS HTTP. What's sexier than the web these days? I once automated myself out of a support job. I am a dinosaur. I know the feeling. But we gotta' learn how to do the new stuff on the mainframe, and let management see it. Kind regards, -Steve Comstock The Trainer's Friend, Inc. 303-393-8716 http://www.trainersfriend.com z/OS Application development made easier * Our classes include + How things work + Programming examples with realistic applications + Starter / skeleton code + Complete working programs + Useful utilities and subroutines + Tips and techniques == call or email to receive a free sample student handout == -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html Best Overall Third-Party Claims Administrator - 2007 Business Insurance Readers Choice Awards Consider the environment before printing this message. This transmission is intended exclusively for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This communication may contain information that is confidential, proprietary, privileged or otherwise exempt from disclosure. If you are not the named addressee, you are NOT authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this communication, its attachments or any part of them. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this communication from all computers. This communication does not form any contractual obligation on behalf of the sender, the sender's employer, or the employer's parent company, affiliates or subsidiaries. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Daniel McLaughlin wrote: Misstated - COBOL isn't perceived as sexy ,,, WE have over 500 servers in the room and we call it the chicken farm. COBOL vs distributed platforms ? Apples and oranges. The most popular banking application in Poland is written in COBOL, but the platform is Unix (formerly single flavor). From the other hand, it is possible to have non-COBOL applications on mainframe. We have some in Poland. BTW: COBOL has serious disadvantages. (and the war began...) -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2008 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA wynosi 118.642.672 zote i zosta w caoci wpacony. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
On 26 Mar 2008 10:22:03 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (R.S.) wrote: BTW: COBOL has serious disadvantages. (and the war began...) Every tool has serious disadvantages - because no tool is all things for all people. It's not about the language though. IS is about the data.We need to make sure we have the right data accessible to the right people - but not accessible to the wrong people. Often this is facilitated by having a big box database with lots of rules in it.But what languages we use really doesn't matter. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
On 24 Mar 2008 14:03:15 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gerhard Adam) wrote: What's much harder for both data processing and for users is to figure out how to collect and use data that might give us that competitive advantage - without spending more than the return. Agreed. But that's a question that's independent of technology. That isn't to say that technology can't assist in this question, but it can't drive it. Sometimes IT organizations forget that they didn't invent information, they simply are a means of managing it. But talking about replacing IT is basically independent of technology as well.Except that some technological changes make this something that people consider. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
On 24 Mar 2008 16:02:53 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Patrick O'Keefe) wrote: That depends on who defines competetive advantage. In most businesses there must be protection of confidential or proprietary information. I've heard ads for a company that provides Sales Leads. Of course, that company also sells Sales Leads to your competitors as well. Sort of like the company that provides generic software. That can be like someone with a small business buying advertisement from the same station its competitors though - which does work. But it isn't the type of New Idea to make your company maximize itself. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
From desktops to mainframes and all flavors of servers in between lies a vast ocean of opportunities for IT folks. In my daily non-work life I run into people who buy a computer but can't set it up even following the pictures. I run into people who don't understand why an undersized PC won't run all their favorite games or take forever to bring up their pictures. I run into people who get a high speed connection and haven't got a clue what to do next to get on the internet. In the workaday world it's those who have used the same JCL for 20 years and won't streamline it because change is bad. As long as there is 'they' someone will need 'us'. Daniel McLaughlin Z-Series Systems Programmer Information Communications Technology Crawford Company 4680 N. Royal Atlanta Tucker GA 30084 phone: 770-621-3256 fax: 770-621-3237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.crawfordandcompany.com Best Overall Third-Party Claims Administrator - 2007 Business Insurance Readers Choice Awards Consider the environment before printing this message. This transmission is intended exclusively for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This communication may contain information that is confidential, proprietary, privileged or otherwise exempt from disclosure. If you are not the named addressee, you are NOT authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this communication, its attachments or any part of them. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this communication from all computers. This communication does not form any contractual obligation on behalf of the sender, the sender's employer, or the employer's parent company, affiliates or subsidiaries. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 11:41:29 -0700 (PDT), in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: Pete Dashwood wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://blogs.zdnet.com/projectfailures/?p=666 (Not from where I'm standing - but I might not be standing the right place) I have been saying similar things for some time. The arrogance of IT alienated it from the rest of the organization... (I believe this was a major factor in the demise of COBOL; users just got pissed of with being treated like crap and grabbed any alternate solutions (packages, outsourcing, SaaS) as soon as they became available. Added to this, you have a rising generation who are much more computer literate than their parents were and are quite cappable of devising their own (albeit, imperfect and disintegrated from an IT perspective) solutions with spreadsheets and databases. The resulting chaos is what we're seeing today. Getting a hold on this and integrating disparate IT operations throughout the company so that a coherent picture can be derived is a large part of what some IT departments are doing. This represents a shift in IT away from technical service and into management of information. the role of the Technocrats is being ever diminished.) The split between the Business and IT has always been a contrived one. Agile methodologies recognise this and are successfully (re-)combining the two. Is IT becoming extinct? Depends what you mean by IT... I don't think IT is becoming extinct (yet...) but the need for businesses to develop in-house IT applications is definitely under threat. There are many alternatives and some companies are getting really good value from dropping their IT departments. It is MUCH cheaper to simply buy the service than to do it yourself. In-house IT development is expensive (prohibitively so if you insist on using procedural languages like COBOL with line-by-line hand carved solutions...embedding your business into millions of lines of archaic geek-code), and nobody likes the IT department anyway... they consistently treat people who are not technical with condescension and arrogance and are not exactly warm and friendly when you need an IT service. Their track record is abysmal, and most of the organisation would be very glad to see the back of them. Why would you go to IT. cap in hand, when the new students in your department can knock you up a desktop solution in a day or so that is exactly what you need? The role of the in-house IT department to develop and provide services will definitely be taken out of the corporate environment and relegated to a handful of software companies. Long term, the Nirvana is for people to interact with, and utilise the power of, computers, without requiring specialist knowledge or interfaces or go-betweens (like the Priests of COBOL). When this is attained (and it is still a fair way off, although steps are made towards it every year...) THEN you could say IT was extinct. Meantime, there are ASPECTS of IT which certainly are becoming, or even have become extinct. Have you heard anyone discussing EDP recently? Pete. -- I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything. The demise of Cobol, eh? Odd then, that the estimated value of Cobol code currently in production is over $10,000,000,000,000. That's TRILLION. That estimate may be vastly overstated. A large number of in-house COBOL systems and packages written in COBOL have been replace by things like SAP. Many companies change from the mainframe because the package they believe will best run the business doesn't run on the mainframe and the reliability of box x using operating system y is good enough. Is Peoplesoft (now from Oracle) still in COBOL? Does Oracle's language still generate COBOL? And I'm not a Cobol coder, I code in a FAR more civilized language, Rexx. Mickey Clark Morris -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
That estimate may be vastly overstated. A large number of in-house COBOL systems and packages written in COBOL have been replace by things like SAP. I disagree with that, but there is no (recent) evidence to support it either way. The last studies I saw were for Y2K, and there was still a lot of code. Two companies I worked for estimated it would take a minimum of 5 years and $100,000,000 US to do it. Both are still generating new COBOL code every year. One outsourced their development to India because they couldn't find any new COBOL programmers. Unfortunately, that meant they moved the problem around, and with India's economy speeding up, programmers are moving around quickly with higher salaries each time. This also means that what little business knowledge they managed to transfer to India is quickly disappearing. So, I think the cost and time estimates are low. I could go on, but I'll stop now. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
I did a polls recently to see what new development is happening on CICS specifically. The result was very surprising. Out of 190 votes only 5% said that they have no new development plans. 48% said that the new development is in Natural 28% said COBOL The poll results is over here http://www.cicsworld.com/node/198 I will probably run the poll again later in 2008 again to see what it looks like. Ian http://www.cicsworld.com On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Ted MacNEIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That estimate may be vastly overstated. A large number of in-house COBOL systems and packages written in COBOL have been replace by things like SAP. I disagree with that, but there is no (recent) evidence to support it either way. The last studies I saw were for Y2K, and there was still a lot of code. Two companies I worked for estimated it would take a minimum of 5 years and $100,000,000 US to do it. Both are still generating new COBOL code every year. One outsourced their development to India because they couldn't find any new COBOL programmers. Unfortunately, that meant they moved the problem around, and with India's economy speeding up, programmers are moving around quickly with higher salaries each time. This also means that what little business knowledge they managed to transfer to India is quickly disappearing. So, I think the cost and time estimates are low. I could go on, but I'll stop now. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Is IT becoming extinct?
http://blogs.zdnet.com/projectfailures/?p=666 (Not from where I'm standing - but I might not be standing the right place) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
You're standing in the right place - the author, however, is not. While he brings up valid points, these are correctable by good project management and more User ownership of (and responsibility for) their applications and data. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Howard Brazee Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 09:01 To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Is IT becoming extinct? http://blogs.zdnet.com/projectfailures/?p=666 (Not from where I'm standing - but I might not be standing the right place) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Since this is a family list G I cannot use the true language needed to Express my opinion. I will have to paraphrase! Horse Manure! While many of the points are valid, the conclusion is not. Remember CASE and then case? Where are they now? snip http://blogs.zdnet.com/projectfailures/?p=666 /snip -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
---snip Howard Brazee wrote: http://blogs.zdnet.com/projectfailures/?p=666 (Not from where I'm standing - but I might not be standing the right place) -unsnip- As a whole, I disagree with the article as well. But it DOES raise a few valid points. The biggest point I see is the error of letting the purchasing dept. decide what software to purchase, rather than the technicians and/or users. It's like trying to feed liver or spinach to a child; the more you force into him, the less he's going to like it and the more vocal he's going to be about it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Staller, Allan Since this is a family list G I cannot use the true language needed to Express my opinion. I will have to paraphrase! Horse Manure! The phonetic alphabet is your friend here: Bravo Sierra, or if you're _really_ irked, Bravo Foxtrot Sierra. :-) Alternatively, you could diagnose the writer as constipated, or playing the colon calliope. :-) -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Sounds like this is the same thought process that proclaimed that the mainframe was dead. I loved the statement (my words of the thier toughts) about bulk purchases are limiting the company by preventing the user commuinity from taking advantage of newer, more flexible offerings. Yeah, right... Just what a company needs, the user coonunity buying whatever they think and then calling up the help desk to fix it when the new thing does not operate/execute/produce as promised. Nah, that'll never happen... On Mon Mar 24 9:15 , Doc Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent: You're standing in the right place - the author, however, is not. While he brings up valid points, these are correctable by good project management and more User ownership of (and responsibility for) their applications and data. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [EMAIL PROTECTED]','','','')[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Howard Brazee Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 09:01 To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Is IT becoming extinct? http://blogs.zdnet.com/projectfailures/\?p=666 (Not from where I'm standing - but I might not be standing the right place) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well. [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Doc Farmer) writes: You're standing in the right place - the author, however, is not. While he brings up valid points, these are correctable by good project management and more User ownership of (and responsibility for) their applications and data. re: http://blogs.zdnet.com/projectfailures/?p=666 the argument in the 80s (somewhat related to desktop systems) ... in one of the earlier iterations of this discussion were 1) computer technology was becoming significantly more pervasive 2) there wasn't enuf skill base to support the rapidly expanding uses 3) had to change the paradigm so users could handle much of their own support. there was some parallels drawn with the examples of the automobile industry when every automobile required at least one professional chauffeur/mechanic or the telephone industry where all phone calls were connected manually by a human telephone operator. an earlier iteration of this was in the huge explosion in midrange market ... the 43xx and vax machines ... while 43xx may have actually sold more machines, there were SHARE studies that vax/vms had competitive advantage because of lower requirement for (scarce) human effort/skill required for care feeding (of course by the mid-80s, PCs and workstations were starting to gobble up the mid-range market from the low end). in this country ... part of the issue has been that there has been scarcity of homegrown skill base for some time ... mitigated by large influx of foreigners. recently more more of these skills have been returning home ... contributing to the outsourcing activity. combination of outsourcing and foreign workers existed all through (at least) the 90s ... some what coming to a crunch with a combination of both the y2k remediation activity and the internet bubble going on at the same time. a large amount of y2k remediation was outsourced, in part because it was viewed as one-shot activity ... however, it resulted in the creation of business relationships that persisted after the remediation had finished. In core legacy systems, the greener pastures of the internet bubble siphoned off some amount of resources. Going into this century, the internet bubble burst and lots were looking for other safe havens ... at the same time, outsourcing operations had been able to demonstrate core legacy competency with their y2k remediation work. recent thread that 20 or so yrs ago, numerous had realized math/science skills contributed to economy activity ... and recent study calculated the effect on the economy of the education system being unable to deliver those skills http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008e.html#61 Study Finds Sharp Math, Science Skills Help Expand Economy http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008e.html#63 Study Finds Sharp Math, Science Skills Help Expand Economy http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008f.html#22 Study Finds Sharp Math, Science Skills Help Expand Economy http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008f.html#70 Study Finds Sharp Math, Science Skills Help Expand Economy the US now coming in with rankings like 29 out of 30 industrial countries ... recent posts: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007u.html#78 Education ranking http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007u.html#80 Education ranking http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007u.html#82 Education ranking http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007v.html#16 Education ranking http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007v.html#19 Education ranking http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007v.html#20 Education ranking http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007v.html#38 Education ranking http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007v.html#39 Education ranking http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007v.html#44 Education ranking http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007v.html#45 Education ranking http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007v.html#51 Education ranking http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007v.html#71 Education ranking http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008.html#52 Education ranking http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008.html#55 Education ranking http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008.html#60 Education ranking http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008.html#62 competitiveness http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008.html#81 Education ranking http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008.html#83 Education ranking http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008b.html#6 Science and Engineering Indicators 2008 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008b.html#13 Education ranking -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Chase, John wrote: -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Staller, Allan Since this is a family list G I cannot use the true language needed to Express my opinion. I will have to paraphrase! Horse Manure! The phonetic alphabet is your friend here: Bravo Sierra, or if you're _really_ irked, Bravo Foxtrot Sierra. :-) Alternatively, you could diagnose the writer as constipated, or playing the colon calliope. :-) -jc- Let me add: Diarhea of the Mouth and Constipation of Good Sense -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Predicators of the mainframe demise are probably of the same genre as those experts (who have probably never opened a science book) who are expounding the dangers of this global warming nonsense. Dick Rick Fochtman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 3/24/2008 11:10 AM Chase, John wrote: -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Staller, Allan Since this is a family list G I cannot use the true language needed to Express my opinion. I will have to paraphrase! Horse Manure! The phonetic alphabet is your friend here: Bravo Sierra, or if you're _really_ irked, Bravo Foxtrot Sierra. :-) Alternatively, you could diagnose the writer as constipated, or playing the colon calliope. :-) -jc- Let me add: Diarhea of the Mouth and Constipation of Good Sense -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html == CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email contains information from the sender that may be CONFIDENTIAL, LEGALLY PRIVILEGED, PROPRIETARY or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email is intended for use only by the person or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure, copying, distribution, printing, or any action taken in reliance on the contents of this email, is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error, please contact the sending party by reply email, delete the email from your computer system and shred any paper copies. Note to Patients: There are a number of risks you should consider before using e-mail to communicate with us. See our Privacy Policy and Henry Ford My Health at www.henryford.com for more detailed information. If you do not believe that our policy gives you the privacy and security protection you need, do not send e-mail or Internet communications to us. ==
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Richard Bond Predicators of the mainframe demise are probably of the same genre as those experts (who have probably never opened a science book) who are expounding the dangers of this global warming nonsense. Indeed, I think Chicagoland is finally experiencing the nuclear winter forecasted by Carl Sagan et al, as a consequence of Iraq torching all the Kuwait oil wells during the first war over there. I doubt seriously that the mainframe is going away, ha ha; rather, it is frequently wearing new clothes in the form of penguin tuxedos and other non-traditional garb. :-) -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Michael Krigsman is just jumping on Nicholas Carr's bandwagon. Carr has been beating the IT is dying drum for a long time. ( http://www.nicholasgcarr.com/articles/matter.html) Mostly, I think, for the free advertising for his books. Ian http://www.cicsworld.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:55 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Is IT becoming extinct? Michael Krigsman is just jumping on Nicholas Carr's bandwagon. Carr has been beating the IT is dying drum for a long time. ( http://www.nicholasgcarr.com/articles/matter.html) Mostly, I think, for the free advertising for his books. Ian http://www.cicsworld.com I wonder if I could somehow convince people that, like IT, food is obsolete? Perhaps, rather than large farms, we should go back to everybody growing their own? That would reduce the amount of fuel needed to get the food from the farm to the individual! Think of the cost savings! Think of how green this would be in that there would be more plants to absorb the CO2 and less emissions from trucks! WOW! We could also have individual waste recycling mini-plants to take the waste product (you know what I mean) emitted and recycle it as fertilizer. Personal self-sufficiency! -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
On 24 Mar 2008 09:27:34 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Richard Bond) wrote: Predicators of the mainframe demise are probably of the same genre as those experts (who have probably never opened a science book) who are expounding the dangers of this global warming nonsense. Possibly. But those who do not pay attention to doomsayers in either genre are vulnerable when parts of their views have validity - or when parts of their views can be convincing or have utility to our goals. (For instance, the U.S. President has found the global warming politics to be useful when dealing with China). If our CEOs read about IT becoming extinct, then we should know about the arguments that he reads about.Whether we think of it as a battle (only fools go to war without studying the enemy), or whether we think of these alternative technologies as allies in doing our jobs - we should analyze these alternatives and assume that there are useful parts of their positions. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
On 24 Mar 2008 09:54:44 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Chase, John) wrote: I doubt seriously that the mainframe is going away, ha ha; rather, it is frequently wearing new clothes in the form of penguin tuxedos and other non-traditional garb. :-) But my particular mainframe skills are likely to need modifying. For me to make intelligent decisions for myself and for my company, I should be prepared if things change. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
I believe Corporate IT departments will be utilized for a long time; however, such organizations will just become paper-pushers and mouse-clickers (or a paper-pusher/mouse-clicker) in the long run, utilizing third party vendors, VARs, and such, for their overall IT HW and SW maintenances. Regards, Carmelo Grecia If it ain't broke, may I have it? Howard Brazee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://blogs.zdnet.com/projectfailures/?p=666 (Not from where I'm standing - but I might not be standing the right place) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html - Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
More in Nicolas Carr from my favorite pundit. Carr-ied away: http://www.issurvivor.com/ArticlesDetail.asp?ID=651 Carr-toonish engineering: http://www.issurvivor.com/ArticlesDetail.asp?ID=652 Lately he has had a series of columns on how some employers are requiring their employees to buy their own computers for work. IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu wrote on 03/24/2008 12:55:18 PM: Michael Krigsman is just jumping on Nicholas Carr's bandwagon. Carr has been beating the IT is dying drum for a long time. ( http://www.nicholasgcarr.com/articles/matter.html) Mostly, I think, for the free advertising for his books. Ian http://www.cicsworld.com - The information contained in this communication (including any attachments hereto) is confidential and is intended solely for the personal and confidential use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. The information may also constitute a legally privileged confidential communication. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this communication in error and that any review, dissemination, copying, or unauthorized use of this information, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail, and delete the original message. Thank you -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Predicators of the mainframe demise are probably of the same genre as those experts (who have probably never opened a science book) who are expounding the dangers of this global warming nonsense. Why is it that experts that expound global warming are fools, but experts that denounce it are assumed correct? Can I assume that your statement (on global warming) is based on your expertise and that you aren't simply repeating something you've heard? My point, is that expert opinions are just that opinions. The article under discussion is flawed at so many levels, that its difficult to know where to start. First, there is no mention of the mainframe, its demise, or anything relating to it in the article. The article suggests that IT (as an organization of individuals) is verging on extinction, but then proceeds to suggest simply that someone else (i.e. non-technical personnel), can fulfill the role, or perhaps outsourcers? If it's outsourcers, then the argument that expertise is no longer needed, simply falls apart, since it is only a transfer of expertise to a different supplier. However, if the argument is that computer technology is becoming simple enough so that anyone can support it, then we have to examine how realistic that position is. I would suggest that more suppliers of expertise have surfaced because of smaller systems (i.e. Geek Squad, etc.). This would suggest that the simplicity of personal systems has failed and that (other than the power user), the home consumer now has a greater need of technical support. Are we to believe that this situation will suddenly be resolved at the corporate level by those same users? One of the most serious flaws in the article is to dismiss IT as a commodity. This is easy to say when systems are in place and functioning, but it does nothing to address the issue of new applications and the infrastructure needed for data management. Are we to assume that systems design, data management, security, communications, etc are also commodities? The truth is that IT services will not be eliminated, although how they may evolve (or mutate) is certainly beyond most of us. As systems become simpler for the end-user, there is a higher degree of expertise required to deal with the complexities that deliver that simplicity. IT services have always evolved as the technology has changed. Businesses have always tried to save money and sometimes these two entities have collided with harsh consequences. One point that should be considered, is that much of the article doesn't suggest extinction, but rather a higher degree of competition with outside providers (either software or services). This is certainly going to be the case, so anyone that thinks that IT will, or should, be business as usual is in for a rude awakening. The biggest danger to most IT organizations is that they don't realize they're even in a competition and that will certainly cause them to go away in favor of their competitors. Despite its failings, this article should serve as a wake-up call to anyone thinking that IT is simply a job you can go to for 30 years and then retire. Anyway ... end rant Adam -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
More in Nicolas Carr from my favorite pundit. Carr-ied away: http://www.issurvivor.com/ArticlesDetail.asp?ID=651 Carr-toonish engineering: http://www.issurvivor.com/ArticlesDetail.asp?ID=652 There is also some truth in these articles, and they should be carefully considered. One problem is that it appears that everyone is applying whatever interpreation they like to the term, IT, and then using it to support their particular point of view. The author criticizes Carr using absurdity Every business has access to the same everything as every other business -- the same technology, ideas, people, processes, capital, real estate ... This is patently false, since neither the ideas, people, capital, or real estate are commodities in any sense implying equality. Processes may or may not be identical, which doesn't really say much, but to trivialize this argument by suggesting that all these elements are on an equal par with technology for comparison is seriously disingenious. By the author's own admission Most internal IT organizations long ago changed their focus. They seldom develop. Mostly they configure and integrate purchased applications. What is this if it isn't turning applications into commodities? Don't get me wrong. I'm not here to defend nor support Nicholas Carr. What I am saying is that to dismiss some of these points out of hand is also wrong, and bears some scrutiny in assessing what is occurring within IT. (Disclaimer: I am not a supporter of Nicholas Carr, nor am I familiar with his writings beyond those stated in these posts). Consider this: In the early years (decades) of computing, there was a strong incentive for companies to develop in-house applications because of the competitive advantage this could provide. An idea could be developed and implemented that might completely blind-side a competitor and provide a significant business advantage. Increasingly, this is no longer the case and we have seen a decline in the need for large development staffs with a significant portion of software being purchased from outside providers. In other words, many applications have become commodities that no longer convey advantage. Therefore to determine which direction Applications Development is taking within the term, IT, compare how many new systems and/or applications are being created in-house versus those that are purchased off the shelf. We could also consider what's happening with IT Operations, and it should be abundantly clear that there is a higher degree of automation and system tools which have been brought to bear, so this area has also shrunk to commodity levels. In other words, in today's environment the operator also requires less expertise. In systems programming, we have also seen greater consolidation of hardware resources and more software tools being made available to gain economies of scale. Because of these changes, fewer people can support larger configurations. The responsibilities have also become more specialized with the vendors providing a greater role in supporting systems than in previous decades. Systems programmers (in many organizations) have become largely supplanted by systems administrators. In all these cases, the argument can be made that IT has evolved to be functional with fewer individuals and less expertise (on hand, on a daily basis). This doesn't mean that the expertise isn't required, but rather that it doesn't have to be on staff as a permanent position. This is one reason for the rise of outside service providers. Similarly, even though many applications components are commodities, many other elements are also assumed, so resources need to be expended to live up to the expectation. For example, in the past while response time was useful to improve productivity, etc. In today's commodity environment it is an expectation that the customer has. While it is a commodity it is also an expectation, so that failure to provide expected services becomes a competitive disadvantage in today's IT world. In the past a database might have provided advantage by allowing a corporation to access customer data more quickly than a competitor. In today's environment, the database is assumed and failure to being able to access customer data is a liability. Without reading too much into it, I would suggest that Nicolas Carr has a legitimate point when he says that IT can no longer be assumed to carry a business advantage. In addition, it would appear that it really doesn't matter from a purely technical perspective. However, like all the other technologies that business relies on, the advantage comes from providing a high quality level of services for expected services and deploying these commodities effectively to enhance the business environment. It seems like everyone wants a black or white argument, in that IT either goes away completely, or it remains exactly the
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
On 24 Mar 2008 13:26:16 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gerhard Adam) wrote: Similarly, even though many applications components are commodities, many other elements are also assumed, so resources need to be expended to live up to the expectation. For example, in the past while response time was useful to improve productivity, etc. In today's commodity environment it is an expectation that the customer has. While it is a commodity it is also an expectation, so that failure to provide expected services becomes a competitive disadvantage in today's IT world. In the past a database might have provided advantage by allowing a corporation to access customer data more quickly than a competitor. In today's environment, the database is assumed and failure to being able to access customer data is a liability. One job I had was working with two insurance company data warehouses after one bought the other.They didn't quite track all the same things. Our job was to integrate them so that the customers could use them both without comparing apples to oranges. It could become very easy to commoditize a company's data until it fit in a way that we know how to use. What's much harder for both data processing and for users is to figure out how to collect and use data that might give us that competitive advantage - without spending more than the return. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
What's much harder for both data processing and for users is to figure out how to collect and use data that might give us that competitive advantage - without spending more than the return. Agreed. But that's a question that's independent of technology. That isn't to say that technology can't assist in this question, but it can't drive it. Sometimes IT organizations forget that they didn't invent information, they simply are a means of managing it. Adam -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Adam said Sometimes IT organizations forget that they didn't invent information, they simply are a means of managing it. ...and sometimes not even managing it. Often enough IT is arguably just a vessel in which corporate information resides and it's a vessel that fights the business tooth and nail every day. It is more of a necessary bur-in-my-saddle than anything remotely approaching a core technology asset that might drive some sort of competitive advantage. I -don't- subscribe to the idea that IT doesn't matter. That prognostication is premature at best. However, if you look at downsizing, outsourcing and offshoring trends and also at the steep decline of in-house application development world-wide, then it is pretty easy to agree with a lot of what Nicholas Carr says, even if you don't buy the whole story. CC -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:16:11 -0400, Craddock, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...and sometimes not even managing it. Often enough IT is arguably just a vessel in which corporate information resides and it's a vessel that fights the business tooth and nail every day. It is more of a necessary bur-in-my-saddle than anything remotely approaching a core technology asset that might drive some sort of competitive advantage. That depends on who defines competetive advantage. In most businesses there must be protection of confidential or proprietary information. Those trying to access useful data could easily see this lowering the business's competetive advantage. Legal teams might see release of such information as complete loss of competetive advantage (if not corporate existance). The lawers likely win in this case. So I think some sort of IT layer is needed - something under corporate control that limits access to sensitive inforation. That IT layer may be local or out-sourced, but it MUST exist in many businesses. Pat O'Keefe -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 08:27:36 -0500, Rick Fochtman wrote: As a whole, I disagree with the article as well. But it DOES raise a few valid points. The biggest point I see is the error of letting the purchasing dept. decide what software to purchase, rather than the technicians and/or users. It's like trying to feed liver or spinach to a child; the more you force into him, the less he's going to like it and the more vocal he's going to be about it. This is close to a paraphrase of Management by Airline Magazine. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
In a recent note, Richard Bond said: Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 12:24:32 -0400 Predicators of the mainframe demise are probably of the same genre as those experts (who have probably never opened a science book) who are expounding the dangers of this global warming nonsense. Troll. Sheesh. We must simply learn to ignore the Zealots who too often attempt to convert a fairly on-charter thread to politics or religion with a platform thinly disguised as a metaphor. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
(fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
This probably was cross-posted to both comp.lang.cobol and bit.listserv.ibm-main. Pete Dashwood is a long time consultant who has CICS and COBOL experience. I don't necessarily agree with him but he does have many good insights. Clark Morris On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 13:54:55 +1300, in bit.listserv.ibm-main Pete Dashwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://blogs.zdnet.com/projectfailures/?p=666 (Not from where I'm standing - but I might not be standing the right place) I have been saying similar things for some time. The arrogance of IT alienated it from the rest of the organization... (I believe this was a major factor in the demise of COBOL; users just got pissed of with being treated like crap and grabbed any alternate solutions (packages, outsourcing, SaaS) as soon as they became available. Added to this, you have a rising generation who are much more computer literate than their parents were and are quite cappable of devising their own (albeit, imperfect and disintegrated from an IT perspective) solutions with spreadsheets and databases. The resulting chaos is what we're seeing today. Getting a hold on this and integrating disparate IT operations throughout the company so that a coherent picture can be derived is a large part of what some IT departments are doing. This represents a shift in IT away from technical service and into management of information. the role of the Technocrats is being ever diminished.) The split between the Business and IT has always been a contrived one. Agile methodologies recognise this and are successfully (re-)combining the two. Is IT becoming extinct? Depends what you mean by IT... I don't think IT is becoming extinct (yet...) but the need for businesses to develop in-house IT applications is definitely under threat. There are many alternatives and some companies are getting really good value from dropping their IT departments. It is MUCH cheaper to simply buy the service than to do it yourself. In-house IT development is expensive (prohibitively so if you insist on using procedural languages like COBOL with line-by-line hand carved solutions...embedding your business into millions of lines of archaic geek-code), and nobody likes the IT department anyway... they consistently treat people who are not technical with condescension and arrogance and are not exactly warm and friendly when you need an IT service. Their track record is abysmal, and most of the organisation would be very glad to see the back of them. Why would you go to IT. cap in hand, when the new students in your department can knock you up a desktop solution in a day or so that is exactly what you need? The role of the in-house IT department to develop and provide services will definitely be taken out of the corporate environment and relegated to a handful of software companies. Long term, the Nirvana is for people to interact with, and utilise the power of, computers, without requiring specialist knowledge or interfaces or go-betweens (like the Priests of COBOL). When this is attained (and it is still a fair way off, although steps are made towards it every year...) THEN you could say IT was extinct. Meantime, there are ASPECTS of IT which certainly are becoming, or even have become extinct. Have you heard anyone discussing EDP recently? Pete. -- I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well. [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It could become very easy to commoditize a company's data until it fit in a way that we know how to use. What's much harder for both data processing and for users is to figure out how to collect and use data that might give us that competitive advantage - without spending more than the return. re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008f.html#81 Is IT becoming extinct? in much the same way that hardware started to become commoditized, software also started becoming commoditized (as part of industry maturing). some of this was helped along by gov. COTS (commercial off the shelf) activity (both hardware and software) ... some recent posts: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008d.html#37 COTS software on box ? to replace mainframe was Re: Curious(?) way to ZIP a mainframe file http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008d.html#41 COTS software on box ? to replace mainframe was Re: Curious(?) way to ZIP a mainframe file http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008d.html#43 more on (the new 40+ yr old) virtualization http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008d.html#49 Linux zSeries questions http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008d.html#87 Berkeley researcher describes parallel path some amount of software matured to the point where it is good enuf ... and competitive edge comes from focusing on domain specific issues rather than managing software projects ... especially by organizations that don't have a lot of expertise in the area. there has been an extrodinary number of major failed IT projects in the past couple decades which would contribute to many organizations just wanting something off the shelf that works. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
