Re: bitmapped displays [was: Definition of mainframe?]

[Grant Taylor]

On 7/29/23 5:47 PM, Rick Troth wrote:
Xwindows is used by Linux because it had been developed widely and was 
common on Unix when Linux came into popular view.  Xwindows itself 
is an excellent development. Sadly, Xwindows is way to "chatty" and 
has other issues.


I'm curious to know what you're thinking if you'd be willing to elaborate.

(But the reactions against it from the security community are WAY 
out of line, MUCH to aggressive. Xwindows is not and evil back door 
for the hackers. But I digress.)


X11 is not good.  I don't know how /bad/ it is.

I think the biggest thing is that most people don't think about it at 
all.  As such it has a way of biting many people.


X11 has a couple of authentication methods, per IP and MIT Magic Cookie. 
 Per IP is problematic when you have multiple users on either IP.  MIT 
Magic Cookie tends to help this and make t hings more per user.  But I 
don't think as many people use MIT Magic Cookie as should.  Almost all 
of the tutorials I've seen online still do things per IP or simply open 
up X11 to the any IP that can connect to it.


Despite the authentication issue, X11 makes it too easy for a client 
that can access the X11 display server to copy the screen to a file, 
manipulate the clipboard, capture keys, read / mess with the mouse, and 
various other surprising things.


You're right: z/OS already does Xwindows.  Mac doesn't use Xwindows, 
but its fore-runner NeXT did X just fine.  (personal experience)


macOS doesn't use X11 /by/ /default/.  But my understanding is that 
there are many ways to add X11 on top of -- what I think is called - 
Coco (?) -- thereby making it behave similar to Linux (et al.) and 
Windows with an X11 display server.


MS Windows doesn't do X, but there are numerous utilities bridging 
the gap. (Personally I go for CYGWIN/X when corp IT doesn't get in 
the way.  Works great!)  I rarely use X based apps on MVS, but I've 
used them occasionally for more than two decades. (Even used X from 
CMS. Tell the ARS Technica guy *that*, will ya?)


I'm curious what X11 based applications you ran as clients on MVS / CMS.

The nice thing about Xwindows is that it's the same from one platform 
to the next.


That's not as true as it used to be.

X11 used to be both BIGendian & littleENDIAN and supported byte swapping 
on the fly.  That functionality was disabled by default in a recent 
change (within the last year) and now must be enabled with a command 
line option on the X server.


Newer X11 servers should support older X11 clients.  I'm not as sure 
about the other way around.  Especially when you get to older releases 
or even X10.


Geek that I am, I started recompiling the compiler. (Gotta have the 
latest compiler for everything else. Besides, Linux is "open source", 
right?)  Mike was more sporty. He brought up DOOM. We had to borrow a 
nearby Sun workstation (I forget which model). There was no BITMAPPED 
DISPLAY on the mainframe.  But the beauty of this story is that DOOM 
was essentially the first application to run on Linux/390 native 
(outside of IBM).


LOL



Grant. . . .

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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

[Wayne Bickerdike]

COBOL MOVE was not intuitive. Should have been PROPOGATE or COPY, COPY was
already taken I guess.

On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 1:55 PM Grant Taylor <
023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> On 7/30/23 7:58 PM, Andrew Rowley wrote:
> > They do dynamicaly expand. It's not growing that's the problem though,
> > it's shrinking - releasing space so that it can be used by another user.
>
> I feel like shrinking is a thing for many file systems.  The utility to
> shrink may not be included with the OS and need to be installed or even
> come from a 3rd party.
>
> Not all file systems can be expanded much less shrunk while mounted.
> Many of the ones that I've worked with need to be unmounted to do such
> actions.
>
> Usually, such actions also require the support of some sort of resizable
> container to put the file system in.  This is often Logical Volume
> Manager on Linux (across platforms).
>
>
>
> Grant. . . .
>
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Wayne V. Bickerdike

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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

[Grant Taylor]

On 7/30/23 7:58 PM, Andrew Rowley wrote:
They do dynamicaly expand. It's not growing that's the problem though, 
it's shrinking - releasing space so that it can be used by another user.


I feel like shrinking is a thing for many file systems.  The utility to 
shrink may not be included with the OS and need to be installed or even 
come from a 3rd party.


Not all file systems can be expanded much less shrunk while mounted. 
Many of the ones that I've worked with need to be unmounted to do such 
actions.


Usually, such actions also require the support of some sort of resizable 
container to put the file system in.  This is often Logical Volume 
Manager on Linux (across platforms).




Grant. . . .

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Re: USS Features

[Grant Taylor]

On 7/30/23 10:23 PM, Andrew Rowley wrote:
A low end laptop has 250GB available. How much space should a z/OS user 
be able to use (to do their job) before they have to make a special 
request to the storage management group? 10GB? 100GB?


Please forgive the ignorant question, but does z/OS support quota in any 
way other than a hard file system limit?


Some of my testing runs to (temporarily) 100GB+ for input and output 
files. I run it on the PC because the space isn't available on the 
mainframe, but It would be nice to be able to run it on z/OS. If you get 
a few users with usage spikes to 100GB the space might not be so trivial.


I've seen a few quota systems capable of allowing users to go above a 
soft limit for an amount of time while still being bounded by an 
absolute hard limit.


This soft limit allows users to burst for temporary things, usually for 
single digit number of hours or days.  Once the user exceeds the time, 
their soft quota kicks in and behaves as if it's the hard limit.




Grant. . . .

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Re: USS Features

[Andrew Rowley]

On 31/07/2023 10:59 am, Steve Smith wrote:

Whatever.  We use automount, and the "space" wasted is way too trivial to
worry about.  And HSM can magically free up home filesystem zfs files that
aren't used any more.


If it's trivial, you're probably not using actually using it.

A low end laptop has 250GB available. How much space should a z/OS user 
be able to use (to do their job) before they have to make a special 
request to the storage management group? 10GB? 100GB?


Some of my testing runs to (temporarily) 100GB+ for input and output 
files. I run it on the PC because the space isn't available on the 
mainframe, but It would be nice to be able to run it on z/OS. If you get 
a few users with usage spikes to 100GB the space might not be so trivial.



gil answered that one... if you really have a good reason to go poking
around in users' business.
HSM recalls are the big problem with that. And authorized_keys is the 
sort of question where auditors might require you to be poking around in 
users' business.


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Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

[Bill Johnson]

Mainframe - the greatest computer hardware ever developed & continues to be 
developed.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, July 30, 2023, 7:36 PM, Paul Gilmartin 
<042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 08:50:39 +1000, Andrew Rowley wrote:
>
>An automounted filesystem per user has always been a terrible idea. I
>think it was given as an example of how you could use automount and
>somehow morphed into a recommendation. (Other OSes can e.g. use
>automount to mount a remote user filesystem via NFS).
>
>Reasons it's a bad idea:
>
>1) Freespace in the filesystem is not shared between users. This means
>that you need much more space than if there was one pool of freespace
>shared between all.
> 
It mimics the MVS tradition of overallocating datasets.  Aren't modern
filesystems virtual and dynamically extensible?

>2) It makes simple questions like e.g. "Which users have a
>.ssh/authorized_keys file?" much harder to answer.
>
Hmmm... Use RACF to enumerate hone directories in OMVS segments.  The
"hard" then is just the performance cost of so many automounts.

-- 
gil

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USS Features

[Steve Smith]

On Sun, Jul 30, 2023 at 6:51 PM Andrew Rowley 
wrote:

> On 30/07/2023 2:28 am, Jon Perryman wrote:
> > ASK YOURSELF: Name the z/OS Unix feature that sort of fixes the
> fundamental design flaw with Unix filesystems just described?
> >
> > I suspect most people won't think about each user having a unique
> filesystem using automount to make their filesystem available. Typical Unix
> uses one file system with all users having directories in the /user
> directory.
>
> An automounted filesystem per user has always been a terrible idea. I
> think it was given as an example of how you could use automount and
> somehow morphed into a recommendation. (Other OSes can e.g. use
> automount to mount a remote user filesystem via NFS).
>
> Reasons it's a bad idea:
>
> 1) Freespace in the filesystem is not shared between users. This means
> that you need much more space than if there was one pool of freespace
> shared between all.
>
Whatever.  We use automount, and the "space" wasted is way too trivial to
worry about.  And HSM can magically free up home filesystem zfs files that
aren't used any more.

>
> 2) It makes simple questions like e.g. "Which users have a
> .ssh/authorized_keys file?" much harder to answer.
>
gil answered that one... if you really have a good reason to go poking
around in users' business.

>
> A filesystem per user is basically equivalent to a SMS storage group and
> catalog per user. You get isolation between users, but at the expense of
> much more difficult management.
>
Now that you mention it, a catalog per user sounds like a great idea.  I
suppose it's the nature of our business, but we badly damage catalogs more
often than I'd care to admit.  We have a few expert Catalog Surgeons*, but
the downtime and their time are an expense.

The only issue I see is how that might affect CAS.

*If my company would license Catalog Recovery+, we would only need to be
Catalog Nurse Practitioners.

>
> --
> Andrew Rowley
> Black Hill Software
>
> sas

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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

[Andrew Rowley]

On 31/07/2023 9:36 am, Paul Gilmartin wrote:

It mimics the MVS tradition of overallocating datasets.  Aren't modern
filesystems virtual and dynamically extensible?
They do dynamicaly expand. It's not growing that's the problem though, 
it's shrinking - releasing space so that it can be used by another user.

Hmmm... Use RACF to enumerate hone directories in OMVS segments.  The
"hard" then is just the performance cost of so many automounts.


One of the claimed advantages of automount was that user filesystems 
could be migrated by HSM. Enumerating the users is fine if the 
filesystems are all instantly available. If you have a few thousand that 
need to be recalled from HSM...


Does HSM release unused space from the filesystem when it is migrated 
and recalled, or do you need enough DASD to allocate all the empty space 
in all the filesystems?


--
Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 08:50:39 +1000, Andrew Rowley wrote:
>
>An automounted filesystem per user has always been a terrible idea. I
>think it was given as an example of how you could use automount and
>somehow morphed into a recommendation. (Other OSes can e.g. use
>automount to mount a remote user filesystem via NFS).
>
>Reasons it's a bad idea:
>
>1) Freespace in the filesystem is not shared between users. This means
>that you need much more space than if there was one pool of freespace
>shared between all.
> 
It mimics the MVS tradition of overallocating datasets.  Aren't modern
filesystems virtual and dynamically extensible?

>2) It makes simple questions like e.g. "Which users have a
>.ssh/authorized_keys file?" much harder to answer.
>
Hmmm... Use RACF to enumerate hone directories in OMVS segments.  The
"hard" then is just the performance cost of so many automounts.

-- 
gil

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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

[Andrew Rowley]

On 30/07/2023 2:28 am, Jon Perryman wrote:

ASK YOURSELF: Name the z/OS Unix feature that sort of fixes the fundamental 
design flaw with Unix filesystems just described?

I suspect most people won't think about each user having a unique filesystem 
using automount to make their filesystem available. Typical Unix uses one file 
system with all users having directories in the /user directory.


An automounted filesystem per user has always been a terrible idea. I 
think it was given as an example of how you could use automount and 
somehow morphed into a recommendation. (Other OSes can e.g. use 
automount to mount a remote user filesystem via NFS).


Reasons it's a bad idea:

1) Freespace in the filesystem is not shared between users. This means 
that you need much more space than if there was one pool of freespace 
shared between all.


2) It makes simple questions like e.g. "Which users have a 
.ssh/authorized_keys file?" much harder to answer.


A filesystem per user is basically equivalent to a SMS storage group and 
catalog per user. You get isolation between users, but at the expense of 
much more difficult management.


--
Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

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Re: Ignorant z/OS question

[Seymour J Metz]

I'm saying that you are lying about what we disagree about.

When you launch gratuitous ad hominem attacks on me then you have forfeited any 
claim to respect.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Jon 
Perryman 
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2023 6:16 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question

 > On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 01:11:05 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz  
 > wrote:
> You are repeating the same old lie.

What lie are you saying I'm repeating? z/VM console 3215 for screen scraping? 
Are you saying you asked a question in trying to understand my point? Are you 
saying as your message didn't imply, it's inconceivable my I point may have 
merit? Are you saying your last message was in any way an attempt to show any 
type of respect for my opinion? Are you saying that your response was not 
intended to deny all possibility that you could be wrong and I may have a valid 
point.

What is the lie? See-more Putz proving you can't fix stupid. Is this really the 
direction you want to take this?


On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 01:11:05 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz 
 wrote:

 You are repeating the same old lie. In fact, I am aware that I sumetimes err 
and I have thanked people one this list for correcting errors that I have made. 
Can you honestly make the same claim?

I will consistently respect opinions for others when they have a basis in fact. 
I, however, do not suffer fools gladly and do not respect the opinions of those 
who deliberately misrepresent what is in contention.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Jon 
Perryman [jperr...@pacbell.net]
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2023 4:02 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question

 > On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 09:04:58 AM PDT, Seymour J Metz  
 > wrote:
> WTF? It has nothing to do with screen scraping. It has to do with addresses 
> and device types matching.

Once again Seymour fails to ask even one basic question to determine if there 
is any merit. Seymour's incompetence once again demands I must be wrong because 
it's inconceivable that anyone can be more knowledgeable than he.


z/OS 3270 to z/VM 3215 CONSOLE to a SECUSER running z/VM PROP to capture the 
3270 data stream. Only a couple more pieces of the puzzle to figure out and you 
can quickly prototype a screen scraper. If someone wants to see 3270 data 
stream, they have easy access through z/VM 3215 console. Device mismatching has 
it's uses.

Seymour, in the future, do you plan on respecting opinions from others or will 
you continue to insist that your opinion is the only one with true merit and 
that you can't possibly be wrong?



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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

[Jon Perryman]

 > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:36:12 PM PDT, Rick Troth  
 > wrote:
 
 > Your inquiry is (understandably) somewhat of a reaction against 

> unfortunate trends in public thinking.


IBM doesn't have a definition. I can't define mainframe because the only 
distinction I could find is design philosophy. Surely people in this group can 
define mainframe. Like z16, all modern computers have a CPU, RAM and PCIe 
slots. What criteria do people in this group use to identify a mainframe?

> Your #2 is a miss. Hardware *does* make a mainframe: channelized I/O


Like IBM, other manufacturers now build multi-disk PCIe cards which provide 
some form of channel support. Installing these cards does not make them a 
mainframe. Channel support may not be on the level of IBM but it's still 
channels. IBM has chosen PCIe for all expansion whereas other manufactures 
chose additional support thru SATA, IDE and various other techniques. Granted 
that IBM makes far better implementation choices but are we saying that 
mainframe comes down to simple choices?  

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Re: Ignorant z/OS question

[Jon Perryman]

 > On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 01:11:05 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz  
 > wrote:
> You are repeating the same old lie.

What lie are you saying I'm repeating? z/VM console 3215 for screen scraping? 
Are you saying you asked a question in trying to understand my point? Are you 
saying as your message didn't imply, it's inconceivable my I point may have 
merit? Are you saying your last message was in any way an attempt to show any 
type of respect for my opinion? Are you saying that your response was not 
intended to deny all possibility that you could be wrong and I may have a valid 
point.

What is the lie? See-more Putz proving you can't fix stupid. Is this really the 
direction you want to take this?


On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 01:11:05 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz 
 wrote:  
 
 You are repeating the same old lie. In fact, I am aware that I sumetimes err 
and I have thanked people one this list for correcting errors that I have made. 
Can you honestly make the same claim?

I will consistently respect opinions for others when they have a basis in fact. 
I, however, do not suffer fools gladly and do not respect the opinions of those 
who deliberately misrepresent what is in contention.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Jon 
Perryman [jperr...@pacbell.net]
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2023 4:02 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question

 > On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 09:04:58 AM PDT, Seymour J Metz  
 > wrote:
> WTF? It has nothing to do with screen scraping. It has to do with addresses 
> and device types matching.

Once again Seymour fails to ask even one basic question to determine if there 
is any merit. Seymour's incompetence once again demands I must be wrong because 
it's inconceivable that anyone can be more knowledgeable than he.


z/OS 3270 to z/VM 3215 CONSOLE to a SECUSER running z/VM PROP to capture the 
3270 data stream. Only a couple more pieces of the puzzle to figure out and you 
can quickly prototype a screen scraper. If someone wants to see 3270 data 
stream, they have easy access through z/VM 3215 console. Device mismatching has 
it's uses.

Seymour, in the future, do you plan on respecting opinions from others or will 
you continue to insist that your opinion is the only one with true merit and 
that you can't possibly be wrong?



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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 17:32:54 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote:
>
>...  But it never seemed to me that COBOL statements were any easier to 
> learn, or more intuitive, than those of FORTRAN or Basic.
>
In defense of verbosity:

Once in the late 1960s I counseled a physics graduate student who was struggling
to learn FORTRAN.  He coded many assignment statements that corresponded
to elements of a matrix, then
PRINT 

He came to me asking why the computer had not found the solution to a system
of linear equations.

since then, perhaps earlier, I have disliked the use of "=" for assignment.
Some languages do better with "SET variable = expression",
or Pascal with "variable := expression" (the asymmetric delimiter is
informative.)  C tries and perhaps does worse by using "=" for assignment
but something else for a relational operator.  Rexx and PL/I do yet worse
by using "=" for both and depending on context-sensitivity.

-- 
gil

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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

[Bob Bridges]

I assumed that too (and laughed aloud at the time).

The man who introduced me to computer programming (blessings upon him!) got us 
writing code the very first day.  I remember him asking us "so you have to 
write a program that compares two numbers and tells you which one is greater.  
What's the first thing the program has to do?"  After a few wrong guesses from 
us (write out the bigger number?  Look at the two numbers?) he said "You have 
to GET THE FIRST NUMBER", and he wrote GET NUMBERA on the board.  I suppose he 
spent a (very) little time explaining about a variable name before getting us 
to tell him that the second statement should be GET NUMBERB.

The class was in PL/1, so GET and PUT were right there waiting for him to use 
without having to explain very much.

I don't know whether it was because of this approach, or because I'm just 
naturally drawn to such things (and there's no doubt I am), or maybe I've 
simply forgotten after all these years what it was like to learn a computer 
language for the first time.  But most computer languages seem pretty obvious 
to me.  Oh, I wasted some time being confused about the concept of methods in 
VBA, when I first started using it, and of course APL is an exception.  So, 
maybe, is LISP, though I never seriously tackled it.  But it never seemed to me 
that COBOL statements were any easier to learn, or more intuitive, than those 
of FORTRAN or Basic.

And the structure!  All that stuff about the four divisions, and especially the 
ENVIRONMENT division, I didn't find them intuitive at all.

But I'm not so much saying that you're wrong about COBOL being easy to learn as 
that personally I find ALL languages easy to learn - and that may be just an 
idiosyncrasy of mine, especially having learned a number of them.

And by the way, we were six weeks into that PL/C class when I ran across 
someone taking COBOL the same semester.  They were just learning about the 
concept of loops, and had not yet written their first program.  That's a 
terrible way to learn coding, for which I blame not COBOL but their instructor. 
 If for my sins I ever have to teach a COBOL class, I may not be able to get 
them writing PROCEDURE DIVISION statements the first day, but surely by the 
second...

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It is always the right time to do the right thing.  -Martin Luther King, Jr. 
*/

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Jon 
Perryman
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2023 16:57

I assume this is sarcasm about problems with Cobol. There are very few 
peculiarities to Cobol and these are often easily learned very quickly. 
Languages like C and C++ are not intuitive to a non-computer person. Of the 
languages, which is more intuitive to a layperson?  
 
--- On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 01:50:52 PM PDT, Paul Gilmartin 
<042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:  
> However, COBOL can be coded using everyday, non-specialized English 
> vocabulary such as "LEVEL 77".

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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

[Jon Perryman]

 

On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 01:50:52 PM PDT, Paul Gilmartin 
<042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:  
> However, COBOL can be coded using everyday, 
> non-specialized English vocabulary such as "LEVEL 77".

I assume this is sarcasm about problems with Cobol. There are very few 
peculiarities to Cobol and these are often easily learned very quickly. 
Languages like C and C++ are not intuitive to a non-computer person. Of the 
languages, which is more intuitive to a layperson?  

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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

[Jon Perryman]

 > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 12:22:22 PM PDT, Bob Bridges 
 >  wrote:
 
 > I reluctantly admit that COBOL has important strengths 
> ("reluctant" only because I have a deep dislike of verbosity in coding), 
> But there are tasks for which I like PL/1, or VBA, or REXX (or ooRexx), and 
> so on.


Business is not about the languages we like or dislike. Cobol's biggest benefit 
for the business is that there is very little to learn. Ever notice that 
learning the language is far more interesting than learning about the business 
problems? Does anyone doubt they couldn't easily rewrite Twitter in Cobol on 
z/OS? Twitter isn't more complicated than banking software. Cobol forces you to 
focus on the business instead of computers. PL/1, VBA, REXX, JavaScript, HTML 
are far more interesting than the needs of the business. 

  

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Re: Ignorant z/OS question

[Seymour J Metz]

You are repeating the same old lie. In fact, I am aware that I sumetimes err 
and I have thanked people one this list for correcting errors that I have made. 
Can you honestly make the same claim?

I will consistently respect opinions for others when they have a basis in fact. 
I, however, do not suffer fools gladly and do not respect the opinions of those 
who deliberately misrepresent what is in contention.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Jon 
Perryman [jperr...@pacbell.net]
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2023 4:02 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question

 > On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 09:04:58 AM PDT, Seymour J Metz  
 > wrote:
> WTF? It has nothing to do with screen scraping. It has to do with addresses 
> and device types matching.

Once again Seymour fails to ask even one basic question to determine if there 
is any merit. Seymour's incompetence once again demands I must be wrong because 
it's inconceivable that anyone can be more knowledgeable than he.


z/OS 3270 to z/VM 3215 CONSOLE to a SECUSER running z/VM PROP to capture the 
3270 data stream. Only a couple more pieces of the puzzle to figure out and you 
can quickly prototype a screen scraper. If someone wants to see 3270 data 
stream, they have easy access through z/VM 3215 console. Device mismatching has 
it's uses.

Seymour, in the future, do you plan on respecting opinions from others or will 
you continue to insist that your opinion is the only one with true merit and 
that you can't possibly be wrong?



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Re: Ignorant z/OS question

[Jon Perryman]

 > On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 09:04:58 AM PDT, Seymour J Metz  
 > wrote:
> WTF? It has nothing to do with screen scraping. It has to do with addresses 
> and device types matching.

Once again Seymour fails to ask even one basic question to determine if there 
is any merit. Seymour's incompetence once again demands I must be wrong because 
it's inconceivable that anyone can be more knowledgeable than he.


z/OS 3270 to z/VM 3215 CONSOLE to a SECUSER running z/VM PROP to capture the 
3270 data stream. Only a couple more pieces of the puzzle to figure out and you 
can quickly prototype a screen scraper. If someone wants to see 3270 data 
stream, they have easy access through z/VM 3215 console. Device mismatching has 
it's uses.

Seymour, in the future, do you plan on respecting opinions from others or will 
you continue to insist that your opinion is the only one with true merit and 
that you can't possibly be wrong? 

  

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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

[Rick Troth]

On 7/30/23 12:42, Paul Gilmartin wrote:

On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 10:56:08 -0500, Dave Jones wrote:


Pretty sure it was CMS.


Do you know the chronology?

When was the CMS(?) based HTTPD created?

Was SFS available at that date?  MDFS is a poor fit for HTTP paths.




There were several web servers available for VM early on.
One I was fond of was based on Pipelines and did hierarchical content 
even on flat CMS minidisks.
If you had SFS, you could go that route and have a storage-based 
hierarchy. The server figgered it out. Flexible.



-- R; <><

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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

[Tom Brennan]

Got it, thanks.  So the 1600 slots is related to the 1536 ports you 
previously mentioned.  The problem with that calculation is that you 
can't just take the 4 CPC's x 12 fanout slots = 48 I/O drawers.  There's 
nowhere near enough room for that many drawers - you'd have to stack 
about 9 on top of each frame :)


It's not very clear in that Redbook, but see the chart on the bottom of 
page 19, "Frames and cabling".  z16 limit = 12 I/O drawers.


On 7/30/2023 9:25 AM, Jon Perryman wrote:

  > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 12:18:04 PM PDT, Tom Brennan 
 wrote:

Where does "1,600 PCIe slots" come from?

If I calculated max configurable PCIe slots correctly, 4 CPC drawers * 12 PCIe+ 
fanout adapters * 2 fanout ports per adapter * 16 PCIe+ slots in each drawer = 
1,536 PCIe+ slots. Sorry that I couldn't remember the exact number but I also said 
PCIe instead of PCIe+. PCIe by other manufactures comes in 8, 16 & 32 wires 
(called lanes where each lane transmits 1 bit). I suspect that PCIe+ is 64 lanes 
transmitting 64 bits simultaneously. These are beasts compared to PC PCIe slots but 
the implementation is the same.

On page 22 of https://www.redbooks.ibm.com/redbooks/pdfs/sg248950.pdf

Fanouts
   - Each CPC drawer supports up to 12 PCIe+ fanout adapters to connect to
     the PCIe+ I/O drawers, and Integrated Coupling Adapter Short Reach
     (ICA SR) coupling links:
    – A 2-port Peripheral Component Interconnect Express (PCIe) 16 GBps I/O 
fanout.
        Each port supports one domain in the 16-slot PCIe+ I/O drawers
. – ICA SR1.1 and ICA SR PCIe fanouts for coupling links (two links of 8 GBps 
each).


 On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 12:18:04 PM PDT, Tom Brennan 
 wrote:
  
  Where does "1,600 PCIe slots" come from?


On 7/29/2023 9:28 AM, Jon Perryman wrote:

2. Hardware does not make a mainframe. IBM z16 has PCIe and ram which are also 
on every modern motherboard. IBM z16 chooses not to include other hardware 
(e.g. SATA, IDE, WIFI and more). Motherboards choose not to have 1,600 PCIe 
slots. IBM could allow PCIe graphics cards, mice, keyboards and more. 
Essentially, IBM z16 and AMD Ryzen can implement the same hardware if there was 
enough customer demand.

3. OS does not make a mainframe. Linux running on z16 doesn't make it mainframe 
Linux. There's nothing stopping Linux from taking advantage of every z16 
hardware feature (e.g. 1,600 PCIe slots) but no one is willing to build the 
Linux software. IBM hasn't duplicated z/OS software features in Linux.


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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 12:11:11 -0400, Rick Trot wrote:

>On 7/30/23 11:49, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
>> On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 10:38:59 -0500, Dave Jones  wrote:
>>> 3) The original web browse was written of a Next, but the web server that 
>>> served out the pages ran on IBM's VM/ESA.
>>>
>> What guest OS?
>
>CMS, which technically is a "guest OS".
>
>
Why the "technically" qualification?  Aren't all guest OSes technically guest 
OSes?
Is the distinction whether it IPLs from a saved segment or a disk image?

-- 
gil

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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 10:56:08 -0500, Dave Jones wrote:

>Pretty sure it was CMS.
>
Do you know the chronology?

When was the CMS(?) based HTTPD created?

Was SFS available at that date?  MDFS is a poor fit for HTTP paths.

-- 
gil

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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

[Jon Perryman]

 > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 12:18:04 PM PDT, Tom Brennan 
 >  wrote:
> Where does "1,600 PCIe slots" come from?
If I calculated max configurable PCIe slots correctly, 4 CPC drawers * 12 PCIe+ 
fanout adapters * 2 fanout ports per adapter * 16 PCIe+ slots in each drawer = 
1,536 PCIe+ slots. Sorry that I couldn't remember the exact number but I also 
said PCIe instead of PCIe+. PCIe by other manufactures comes in 8, 16 & 32 
wires (called lanes where each lane transmits 1 bit). I suspect that PCIe+ is 
64 lanes transmitting 64 bits simultaneously. These are beasts compared to PC 
PCIe slots but the implementation is the same.

On page 22 of https://www.redbooks.ibm.com/redbooks/pdfs/sg248950.pdf 

Fanouts 
  - Each CPC drawer supports up to 12 PCIe+ fanout adapters to connect to 
    the PCIe+ I/O drawers, and Integrated Coupling Adapter Short Reach 
    (ICA SR) coupling links: 
   – A 2-port Peripheral Component Interconnect Express (PCIe) 16 GBps I/O 
fanout.
       Each port supports one domain in the 16-slot PCIe+ I/O drawers
. – ICA SR1.1 and ICA SR PCIe fanouts for coupling links (two links of 8 GBps 
each).


On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 12:18:04 PM PDT, Tom Brennan 
 wrote:  
 
 Where does "1,600 PCIe slots" come from?

On 7/29/2023 9:28 AM, Jon Perryman wrote:
> 2. Hardware does not make a mainframe. IBM z16 has PCIe and ram which are 
> also on every modern motherboard. IBM z16 chooses not to include other 
> hardware (e.g. SATA, IDE, WIFI and more). Motherboards choose not to have 
> 1,600 PCIe slots. IBM could allow PCIe graphics cards, mice, keyboards and 
> more. Essentially, IBM z16 and AMD Ryzen can implement the same hardware if 
> there was enough customer demand.
> 
> 3. OS does not make a mainframe. Linux running on z16 doesn't make it 
> mainframe Linux. There's nothing stopping Linux from taking advantage of 
> every z16 hardware feature (e.g. 1,600 PCIe slots) but no one is willing to 
> build the Linux software. IBM hasn't duplicated z/OS software features in 
> Linux.

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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

[Rick Troth]

On 7/30/23 11:49, Paul Gilmartin wrote:

On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 10:38:59 -0500, Dave Jones  wrote:

3) The original web browse was written of a Next, but the web server that 
served out the pages ran on IBM's VM/ESA.


What guest OS?


CMS, which technically is a "guest OS".


-- R; <><

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Re: Ignorant z/OS question

[Seymour J Metz]

> In what world were you spot on?

The real one.

> screen scraping 

WTF? It has  nothing to do with screen scraping. It has to do with addresses 
and device types matching.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Jon 
Perryman 
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2023 11:53 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question

 > On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 02:05:59 AM PDT, Seymour J Metz  
 > wrote:
> I was spot on when I wrote that the CP and z/OS definitions had to be in 
> synch.


In what world were you spot on? There is a huge difference between must and 
should. In this case, out of synch is a solution for 3270 screen scraping which 
was not useful for Phil's problem but it does solve a useful problem. More 
important at that point, we suspected but did not know the behavior of mixing 
3270 with 3215. It could have potentially led to a better solution than Phil's 
current solution to his problem. Why are you saying that out of synch can't 
possibly have a useful purpose?
You haven't learned a thing. You don't have the humility to even consider you 
might not understand and be wrong. Instead, you demand we hold your opinion in 
reverence even when it throws a monkey wrench into the works. Is this something 
we both learn from?
On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 02:05:59 AM PDT, Seymour J Metz 
 wrote:

 > If I'm continually "wrong again", how is it that we arrived at the solution?

When you perpetually launch ad hominem attacks, it's difficult to justify the 
claime that you are being civil.

> Does anyone think that Seymour was leading Phil towards a solution to his 
> problem?

Only those who actually read what I wrote, instead of reflexively attacking me. 
I was spot on when I wrote that the CP and z/OS definitions had to be in synch.

> Disagreements are expected but complete dismissal is not acceptable.

And yet, complete dismissal seems to be your forté.

> I will show respect as long as respect is returned.

That is an outright lie.

> What I've learned is that you are a hypocrite.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Jon 
Perryman [jperr...@pacbell.net]
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2023 12:14 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question

 > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 04:33:30 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz 
 >  wrote:
> I'm perfectly willing to be civil with people who are civil,

If I'm continually "wrong again", how is it that we arrived at the solution? 
Does anyone think that Seymour was leading Phil towards a solution to his 
problem? I'm civil to those who earn and demonstrate respect instead of 
demanding it. Lack of humility and the inability to understand the value of 
what others say is not a sign of respect. To prattle on about complete nonsense 
is not a sign of respect. What in any way was Seymour's comments being useful 
or informative? With the help of others, I was able to lead Phil to a solution 
for his problem and a solution he understands. I have no doubt that Seymour 
thinks he played a vital role in solving this problem but as he says, the 
devils in the details. I don't expect people to have all the correct answers 
but I do expect humility and respect for everyone in this group (not just me). 
Disagreements are expected but complete dismissal is not acceptable. I will 
show respect as long as respect is returned. As long as everyone is being 
respected, I will return that respect. Time will tell if Seymour has actually 
learned from what I've said.

Please accept my apologies for those who are upset with me but there is a line 
that I will not allow to be crossed without some form of retribution.

On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 04:33:30 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz 
 wrote:

 I'm perfectly willing to be civil with people who are civil, but when someone 
insists on repeated personal attacks. Take a look at the history of this thread 
and you will see that I have been restrained by comparison.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Jay 
Maynard 
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 6:47 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question

Now folks...let's not descend into personal name-calling, how about?

On Sat, Jul 29, 2023 at 4:56 PM Jon Perryman  wrote:

>  > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:10:11 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz <
> sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
> > Wrong again. When running z/OS under VM for production, multiple 3270
> consoles is the norm.
>
> See-more Putz. What are you saying is wrong with my second sentence that
> says "z/OS has many consoles." which applies to native and z/VM. Can you
> stop with the non-stop nonsense.
>
>   On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:10:11 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz <
> sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
>
>  Wrong again. When running z/OS under VM for production, multiple 3270
> consoles is 

Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

[Dave Jones]

Pretty sure it was CMS.
DJ

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Re: Ignorant z/OS question

[Jon Perryman]

 > On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 02:05:59 AM PDT, Seymour J Metz  
 > wrote:
> I was spot on when I wrote that the CP and z/OS definitions had to be in 
> synch.


In what world were you spot on? There is a huge difference between must and 
should. In this case, out of synch is a solution for 3270 screen scraping which 
was not useful for Phil's problem but it does solve a useful problem. More 
important at that point, we suspected but did not know the behavior of mixing 
3270 with 3215. It could have potentially led to a better solution than Phil's 
current solution to his problem. Why are you saying that out of synch can't 
possibly have a useful purpose?
You haven't learned a thing. You don't have the humility to even consider you 
might not understand and be wrong. Instead, you demand we hold your opinion in 
reverence even when it throws a monkey wrench into the works. Is this something 
we both learn from?  
On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 02:05:59 AM PDT, Seymour J Metz 
 wrote:  
 
 > If I'm continually "wrong again", how is it that we arrived at the solution?

When you perpetually launch ad hominem attacks, it's difficult to justify the 
claime that you are being civil.

> Does anyone think that Seymour was leading Phil towards a solution to his 
> problem?

Only those who actually read what I wrote, instead of reflexively attacking me. 
I was spot on when I wrote that the CP and z/OS definitions had to be in synch.

> Disagreements are expected but complete dismissal is not acceptable.

And yet, complete dismissal seems to be your forté.

> I will show respect as long as respect is returned.

That is an outright lie.

> What I've learned is that you are a hypocrite.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Jon 
Perryman [jperr...@pacbell.net]
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2023 12:14 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question

 > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 04:33:30 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz 
 >  wrote:
> I'm perfectly willing to be civil with people who are civil,

If I'm continually "wrong again", how is it that we arrived at the solution? 
Does anyone think that Seymour was leading Phil towards a solution to his 
problem? I'm civil to those who earn and demonstrate respect instead of 
demanding it. Lack of humility and the inability to understand the value of 
what others say is not a sign of respect. To prattle on about complete nonsense 
is not a sign of respect. What in any way was Seymour's comments being useful 
or informative? With the help of others, I was able to lead Phil to a solution 
for his problem and a solution he understands. I have no doubt that Seymour 
thinks he played a vital role in solving this problem but as he says, the 
devils in the details. I don't expect people to have all the correct answers 
but I do expect humility and respect for everyone in this group (not just me). 
Disagreements are expected but complete dismissal is not acceptable. I will 
show respect as long as respect is returned. As long as everyone is being 
respected, I will return that respect. Time will tell if Seymour has actually 
learned from what I've said.

Please accept my apologies for those who are upset with me but there is a line 
that I will not allow to be crossed without some form of retribution.

    On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 04:33:30 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz 
 wrote:

 I'm perfectly willing to be civil with people who are civil, but when someone 
insists on repeated personal attacks. Take a look at the history of this thread 
and you will see that I have been restrained by comparison.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Jay 
Maynard 
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 6:47 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question

Now folks...let's not descend into personal name-calling, how about?

On Sat, Jul 29, 2023 at 4:56 PM Jon Perryman  wrote:

>  > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:10:11 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz <
> sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
> > Wrong again. When running z/OS under VM for production, multiple 3270
> consoles is the norm.
>
> See-more Putz. What are you saying is wrong with my second sentence that
> says "z/OS has many consoles." which applies to native and z/VM. Can you
> stop with the non-stop nonsense.
>
>   On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:10:11 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz <
> sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
>
>  Wrong again. When running z/OS under VM for production, multiple 3270
> consoles is the norm.
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Jon Perryman 
> Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 5:04 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question
>
>  > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 01:24:04 PM PDT, Phil Smith III <
> li...@akphs.com> wrote:
> > After changing the virtual console address 

Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 10:38:59 -0500, Dave Jones  wrote:
>
>3) The original web browse was written of a Next, but the web server that 
>served out the pages ran on IBM's VM/ESA.
>
What guest OS?

-- 
gil

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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

[Dave Jones]

While I agree with most of the points made by the original poster, a couple of 
nits:
1) zPDT is a software-only toolno special chips or PC boards involved.
2) HTML was inspired by - or evolved from - IBM's GML
3) The original web browse was written of a Next, but the web server that 
served out the pages ran on IBM's VM/ESA.
Good discussions, though. +1
DJ

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Re: Ignorant z/OS question

[Bill Johnson]

Any manager who bases his hiring on what transpires here, is a fool.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, July 30, 2023, 8:08 AM, Jay Maynard  wrote:

Do you really think you're accomplishing anything by getting personally
insulting?  ...that is, beyond destroying your own credibility and
potential future job prospects? If I was looking at your resume, I'd think
twice about keeping it instead of sticking it in the nearest shredder.

On Sat, Jul 29, 2023 at 11:17 PM Jon Perryman  wrote:

>  > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 04:33:30 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz <
> sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
> > I'm perfectly willing to be civil with people who are civil,
>
> If I'm continually "wrong again", how is it that we arrived at the
> solution? Does anyone think that Seymour was leading Phil towards a
> solution to his problem? I'm civil to those who earn and demonstrate
> respect instead of demanding it. Lack of humility and the inability to
> understand the value of what others say is not a sign of respect. To
> prattle on about complete nonsense is not a sign of respect. What in any
> way was Seymour's comments being useful or informative? With the help of
> others, I was able to lead Phil to a solution for his problem and a
> solution he understands. I have no doubt that Seymour thinks he played a
> vital role in solving this problem but as he says, the devils in the
> details. I don't expect people to have all the correct answers but I do
> expect humility and respect for everyone in this group (not just me).
> Disagreements are expected but complete dismissal is not acceptable. I will
> show respect as long as respect is returned. As long as everyone is being
> respected, I will return that respect. Time will tell if Seymour has
> actually learned from what I've said.
>
> Please accept my apologies for those who are upset with me but there is a
> line that I will not allow to be crossed without some form of retribution.
>
>    On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 04:33:30 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz <
> sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
>
>  I'm perfectly willing to be civil with people who are civil, but when
> someone insists on repeated personal attacks. Take a look at the history of
> this thread and you will see that I have been restrained by comparison.
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Jay Maynard 
> Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 6:47 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question
>
> Now folks...let's not descend into personal name-calling, how about?
>
> On Sat, Jul 29, 2023 at 4:56 PM Jon Perryman  wrote:
>
> >  > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:10:11 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz <
> > sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
> > > Wrong again. When running z/OS under VM for production, multiple 3270
> > consoles is the norm.
> >
> > See-more Putz. What are you saying is wrong with my second sentence that
> > says "z/OS has many consoles." which applies to native and z/VM. Can you
> > stop with the non-stop nonsense.
> >
> >    On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:10:11 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz <
> > sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
> >
> >  Wrong again. When running z/OS under VM for production, multiple 3270
> > consoles is the norm.
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> > of Jon Perryman 
> > Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 5:04 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question
> >
> >  > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 01:24:04 PM PDT, Phil Smith III <
> > li...@akphs.com> wrote:
> > > After changing the virtual console address from 03E1 to 0009
> > > linemode output went to SECUSER without artifacts
> >
> >
> > Congrats Phil. Here is what you need to know:
> >
> > 1. z/OS has many consoles. You don't have any consoles activated. The
> > hardware console is DEV(SYSCONS) in PARMLIB(CONSOL##) which has nothing
> to
> > do with DEV(3E1) in CONSOL##.
> >
> > 2. DEV(SYSCONS) will stop working if a DEV(###) regardless how the
> > terminal is defined (DEF CONS, DEF GRAF or ATTACH). If someone decides
> they
> > need a console located next to the tape drives and another console next
> to
> > printers, then DEV(SYSCONS) will no longer be automatically activated.
> >
> > 3. Virtual CONSOLE DEV(###) should never be used for z/OS. The default
> for
> > screen full with non-autoscroll messages requires a real person clear the
> > screen. This VM user typically would not be logged on. It could be days
> or
> > weeks before someone notices the message backlog.
> >    On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 01:24:04 PM PDT, Phil Smith III <
> > li...@akphs.com> wrote:
> >
> >  After changing the virtual console address from 03E1 (matching the
> > CONSOLE entry in CONSOLxx) to 0009 (matching no z/OS console definition)
> > and reIPLing the guest, the linemode output went to SECUSER without
> > artifacts, as it did on our old hosting environment.
> >
> > I'm convinced based on the evidence that:
> >
> > *    The 

Re: AT-TLS and CSSMTP setup

[Phil Smith III]

Since I know almost nothing about AT-TLS config, this might be dumb, but: 
Don't forget to try the *AUTH*/* key ring. That's a "virtual key ring" that 
represents all the trusted certs, and is a great shortcut for saying "Do I have 
the right cert in there somewhere but the key ring setup isn't right yet?"

After getting badly burned by a customer problem that went on way too long, 
I'm also always chary of AT-TLS being turned on without necessarily 
understanding both ends well enough. To wit: our customer was using AT-TLS for 
various stuff, and turned it on for the connection from our product (outbound 
from z/OS) to our server. However, our product and server were both already 
using TLS. So we then had:

1.  Product asks gsk to start a connection
2.  gsk requests a handshake
3.  AT-TLS jumps in, wraps that connection, and starts its own handshake
4.  Our server gets that handshake, says "OK, sure" and they do the dance
5.  Once that's established, the handshake request from z/OS arrives, 
wrapped, at our server
6.  It unwraps it and then says "What the heck is THAT?!!" because it sure 
doesn't look like what it was expecting from an established connection and we 
get an incomprehensible error


Your problem probably isn't, but could be, sort of the invers: because AT-TLS 
is adding the handshake and the server isn't expecting it, it's also saying 
"What the heck is THAT?!"


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Re: Ignorant z/OS question

[Jay Maynard]

Do you really think you're accomplishing anything by getting personally
insulting?  ...that is, beyond destroying your own credibility and
potential future job prospects? If I was looking at your resume, I'd think
twice about keeping it instead of sticking it in the nearest shredder.

On Sat, Jul 29, 2023 at 11:17 PM Jon Perryman  wrote:

>  > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 04:33:30 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz <
> sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
> > I'm perfectly willing to be civil with people who are civil,
>
> If I'm continually "wrong again", how is it that we arrived at the
> solution? Does anyone think that Seymour was leading Phil towards a
> solution to his problem? I'm civil to those who earn and demonstrate
> respect instead of demanding it. Lack of humility and the inability to
> understand the value of what others say is not a sign of respect. To
> prattle on about complete nonsense is not a sign of respect. What in any
> way was Seymour's comments being useful or informative? With the help of
> others, I was able to lead Phil to a solution for his problem and a
> solution he understands. I have no doubt that Seymour thinks he played a
> vital role in solving this problem but as he says, the devils in the
> details. I don't expect people to have all the correct answers but I do
> expect humility and respect for everyone in this group (not just me).
> Disagreements are expected but complete dismissal is not acceptable. I will
> show respect as long as respect is returned. As long as everyone is being
> respected, I will return that respect. Time will tell if Seymour has
> actually learned from what I've said.
>
> Please accept my apologies for those who are upset with me but there is a
> line that I will not allow to be crossed without some form of retribution.
>
> On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 04:33:30 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz <
> sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
>
>  I'm perfectly willing to be civil with people who are civil, but when
> someone insists on repeated personal attacks. Take a look at the history of
> this thread and you will see that I have been restrained by comparison.
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Jay Maynard 
> Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 6:47 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question
>
> Now folks...let's not descend into personal name-calling, how about?
>
> On Sat, Jul 29, 2023 at 4:56 PM Jon Perryman  wrote:
>
> >  > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:10:11 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz <
> > sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
> > > Wrong again. When running z/OS under VM for production, multiple 3270
> > consoles is the norm.
> >
> > See-more Putz. What are you saying is wrong with my second sentence that
> > says "z/OS has many consoles." which applies to native and z/VM. Can you
> > stop with the non-stop nonsense.
> >
> >On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:10:11 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz <
> > sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
> >
> >  Wrong again. When running z/OS under VM for production, multiple 3270
> > consoles is the norm.
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> > of Jon Perryman 
> > Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 5:04 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question
> >
> >  > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 01:24:04 PM PDT, Phil Smith III <
> > li...@akphs.com> wrote:
> > > After changing the virtual console address from 03E1 to 0009
> > > linemode output went to SECUSER without artifacts
> >
> >
> > Congrats Phil. Here is what you need to know:
> >
> > 1. z/OS has many consoles. You don't have any consoles activated. The
> > hardware console is DEV(SYSCONS) in PARMLIB(CONSOL##) which has nothing
> to
> > do with DEV(3E1) in CONSOL##.
> >
> > 2. DEV(SYSCONS) will stop working if a DEV(###) regardless how the
> > terminal is defined (DEF CONS, DEF GRAF or ATTACH). If someone decides
> they
> > need a console located next to the tape drives and another console next
> to
> > printers, then DEV(SYSCONS) will no longer be automatically activated.
> >
> > 3. Virtual CONSOLE DEV(###) should never be used for z/OS. The default
> for
> > screen full with non-autoscroll messages requires a real person clear the
> > screen. This VM user typically would not be logged on. It could be days
> or
> > weeks before someone notices the message backlog.
> >On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 01:24:04 PM PDT, Phil Smith III <
> > li...@akphs.com> wrote:
> >
> >  After changing the virtual console address from 03E1 (matching the
> > CONSOLE entry in CONSOLxx) to 0009 (matching no z/OS console definition)
> > and reIPLing the guest, the linemode output went to SECUSER without
> > artifacts, as it did on our old hosting environment.
> >
> > I'm convinced based on the evidence that:
> >
> > *The old environment had the virtual console at 0009
> > *The old environment had the z/OS CONSOLE definition at 03E1
> > *The folks who ported our system 

Re: of COBOL and other languages [was: Definition of mainframe?]

[Seymour J Metz]

Even a ghastly language may have good features, and there is nothing wrong with 
finding the few jewels in the much. On the flip side, even a good language has 
warts, and there is no virtue in ignoring them.

As an example, I like PL/I and dislike COBOL, but COBOL had enumerations (the 
English-like level 88) from the beginning, while it took IBM decades 
to add them to PL/I.

Another example is C; I intensely dislike it, but I found myself defending the 
for (;;) idiom as being perfectly clear.

One of my convictions is that nobody that can't find flaws in a language truly 
understands it.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Rick Troth [tro...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 7:14 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: of COBOL and other languages [was: Definition of mainframe?]

We had an ... interesting ... conversation over on the assembler list a
couple weeks ago.
I knee-jerked against something PHSiii said. I sorta started some
flaming. Not intentional.

Yeah ... the author got me ticked off too.
I'm actually not a COBOL fan, but I truly wish more of us knew it (and
used it).
It annoys me to the max when people reject things due to age or
perceived obsolescence.
FORTRAN is older but catches less crap than COBOL.

As an industry, we need less allergies to languages outside our normal
space.
It's frustrating the Java has become such a requirement. Java itself is
a great language, but nobody compiles it to native; they leave it as
byte code requiring a JVM. That makes it difficult to work with other
languages. (Java can call out to C, assembler, even COBOL, using the
JNI, but those languages cannot call back "in" to Java inside the JVM.)

COBOL does not require a mainframe and mainframes do not require COBOL.

Jon, you should drop a note to the chief editor at ARS Technica. Tell
him (or her) how far off the mark they were!

-- R; <><


On 7/29/23 12:28, Jon Perryman wrote:
> Can anyone provide the definition of MAINFRAME? The ARS Technica article is 
> complete nonsense because the mainframe is a state of mind and nothing to do 
> with reality. Can anyone prove me wrong? 
> https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/07/the-ibm-mainframe-how-it-runs-and-why-it-survives/.
>
> The IBM z16 is just 4 motherboards containing 16 CPU and many PCIe slots. 
> Linux will run on an IBM z16. Is a PC also mainframe? Forget zPDT because I 
> suspect it still uses a PCIe zCPU card. I can't say with any certainty, but I 
> suspect that z/OS will run on a PC by using Hercules. What is the definition 
> of MAINFRAME?
>
> 1. CPU does not make a mainframe: The smallest IBM z16 (39 user cores of the 
> 64 cores) is the same as an AMD Ryzen 4.2Ghz CPU (64 user cores of 64 cores). 
> The largest IBM z16 (200 user cores of the 256 cores) is the same as 4 AMD 
> Ryzen CPU on 1 motherboard (256 user cores of the 256 cores). Both are CISC 
> CPU (AMD uses X86 instructions versus IBM z instructions). IBM Telum (5.2Ghz) 
> has a slightly faster clock than AMD Ryzen (4.2Ghz) but is offset by the 25% 
> extra user cores. IBM z16 has 4 motherboards for 16 CPU and the same AMD 
> Ryzen would need 1 motherboard for 4 CPU.
>
> 2. Hardware does not make a mainframe. IBM z16 has PCIe and ram which are 
> also on every modern motherboard. IBM z16 chooses not to include other 
> hardware (e.g. SATA, IDE, WIFI and more). Motherboards choose not to have 
> 1,600 PCIe slots. IBM could allow PCIe graphics cards, mice, keyboards and 
> more. Essentially, IBM z16 and AMD Ryzen can implement the same hardware if 
> there was enough customer demand.
>
> 3. OS does not make a mainframe. Linux running on z16 doesn't make it 
> mainframe Linux. There's nothing stopping Linux from taking advantage of 
> every z16 hardware feature (e.g. 1,600 PCIe slots) but no one is willing to 
> build the Linux software. IBM hasn't duplicated z/OS software features in 
> Linux.
>
> 4. Software does not make a mainframe. IBM sells DB2 for Linux and DB2 for 
> z/OS. DB2 for Linux runs on all hardware including z16. With Linux, you can 
> still run DB2 on z16 but large customers choose DB2 for z/OS.
>
> ASK YOURSELF: Other than design philosophy, name 1 fundamental difference 
> between IBM z16, AMD Ryzen and the software.
>
> ASK YOURSELF: Since design philosophy is the only difference, name the 
> philosophy that makes a mainframe.
>
> Despite the story's false claims for z/OS relevance, it is ignorance in the 
> Linux community that makes IBM z/OS relevant. Specifically, it's the lack of 
> design in Linux. Consider DB2 for Linux and DB2 for z/OS which are the same 
> product both from IBM and available on an IBM z16. Linux people tell you they 
> provide the same results, but they ignore the intrinsic capabilities of z/OS 
> design. DB2 for Linux supports high availability and large databases but it 
> 

Re: speaking of filesystems [was: Definition of mainframe?]

[Seymour J Metz]

> A colleague said, "Everything is a file."  OS/360 aimed for that
> target with the abstraction of DD names, but missed by exposing
> hardware characteristics with "attributes" such as RECFM=FBM.

That was not an OS/360 design goal, but I don't believe that there is any 
conflict between attributes and "everything is a file" and, in fact, Unix has 
attributes. Where OS/360 falls short of that non-goal is that there is not a 
uniform naming system for "everything"; it's UNIT=foo instead of something like 
DSN=DEV.foo.

I would not classify RECFM as device dependent, but I would agree that, e.g., 
SPACE is, at least partially.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin [042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 8:50 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: speaking of filesystems [was: Definition of mainframe?]

On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 18:26:29 -0400, Rick Troth wrote:
>
>Here's a neat trick: you can make a hard link to a sym-link.
>
I believe that's not required for POSIX conformance.  But I may
be misled by the lack of that ability in the "ln" utility.

>There are only a handful of actual file *types*:
>
>  * plain file
>  * directory
>  * character special (like a terminal)
>  * block special (like a disk drive or partition thereof)
>  * symbolic link
>  * and a couple others added by OMVS ... really
>
A colleague said, "Everything is a file."  OS/360 aimed for that
target with the abstraction of DD names, but missed by exposing
hardware characteristics with "attributes" such as RECFM=FBM.
OMVS recovered considerable with access methods that generate
RDWs, etc. as specified by the DCB.  (But they don't synthesize
the carriage control character. )

CMS doesn't even try, having distinct system calls for each device
type.

--
gil

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Re: Ignorant z/OS question

[Seymour J Metz]

> If I'm continually "wrong again", how is it that we arrived at the solution?

When you perpetually launch ad hominem attacks, it's difficult to justify the 
claime that you are being civil.

> Does anyone think that Seymour was leading Phil towards a solution to his 
> problem?

Only those who actually read what I wrote, instead of reflexively attacking me. 
I was spot on when I wrote that the CP and z/OS definitions had to be in synch.

> Disagreements are expected but complete dismissal is not acceptable.

And yet, complete dismissal seems to be your forté.

> I will show respect as long as respect is returned.

That is an outright lie.

> What I've learned is that you are a hypocrite.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Jon 
Perryman [jperr...@pacbell.net]
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2023 12:14 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question

 > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 04:33:30 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz 
 >  wrote:
> I'm perfectly willing to be civil with people who are civil,

If I'm continually "wrong again", how is it that we arrived at the solution? 
Does anyone think that Seymour was leading Phil towards a solution to his 
problem? I'm civil to those who earn and demonstrate respect instead of 
demanding it. Lack of humility and the inability to understand the value of 
what others say is not a sign of respect. To prattle on about complete nonsense 
is not a sign of respect. What in any way was Seymour's comments being useful 
or informative? With the help of others, I was able to lead Phil to a solution 
for his problem and a solution he understands. I have no doubt that Seymour 
thinks he played a vital role in solving this problem but as he says, the 
devils in the details. I don't expect people to have all the correct answers 
but I do expect humility and respect for everyone in this group (not just me). 
Disagreements are expected but complete dismissal is not acceptable. I will 
show respect as long as respect is returned. As long as everyone is being 
respected, I will return that respect. Time will tell if Seymour has actually 
learned from what I've said.

Please accept my apologies for those who are upset with me but there is a line 
that I will not allow to be crossed without some form of retribution.

On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 04:33:30 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz 
 wrote:

 I'm perfectly willing to be civil with people who are civil, but when someone 
insists on repeated personal attacks. Take a look at the history of this thread 
and you will see that I have been restrained by comparison.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Jay 
Maynard 
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 6:47 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question

Now folks...let's not descend into personal name-calling, how about?

On Sat, Jul 29, 2023 at 4:56 PM Jon Perryman  wrote:

>  > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:10:11 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz <
> sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
> > Wrong again. When running z/OS under VM for production, multiple 3270
> consoles is the norm.
>
> See-more Putz. What are you saying is wrong with my second sentence that
> says "z/OS has many consoles." which applies to native and z/VM. Can you
> stop with the non-stop nonsense.
>
>    On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:10:11 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz <
> sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
>
>  Wrong again. When running z/OS under VM for production, multiple 3270
> consoles is the norm.
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Jon Perryman 
> Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 5:04 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question
>
>  > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 01:24:04 PM PDT, Phil Smith III <
> li...@akphs.com> wrote:
> > After changing the virtual console address from 03E1 to 0009
> > linemode output went to SECUSER without artifacts
>
>
> Congrats Phil. Here is what you need to know:
>
> 1. z/OS has many consoles. You don't have any consoles activated. The
> hardware console is DEV(SYSCONS) in PARMLIB(CONSOL##) which has nothing to
> do with DEV(3E1) in CONSOL##.
>
> 2. DEV(SYSCONS) will stop working if a DEV(###) regardless how the
> terminal is defined (DEF CONS, DEF GRAF or ATTACH). If someone decides they
> need a console located next to the tape drives and another console next to
> printers, then DEV(SYSCONS) will no longer be automatically activated.
>
> 3. Virtual CONSOLE DEV(###) should never be used for z/OS. The default for
> screen full with non-autoscroll messages requires a real person clear the
> screen. This VM user typically would not be logged on. It could be days or
> weeks before someone notices the message backlog.
>    On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 01:24:04 PM PDT, Phil Smith III <
> li...@akphs.com> wrote:
>
>  After changing 

Re: Ignorant z/OS question

[Seymour J Metz]

> simply a point where I think it's obvious that someone is intentionally being 
> disrespectful.

And it is obvious that you are intentionally being disrespectful.

> As a rule, I don't act snarky unless something is happening.

Actually, you attack people based on who they are rather than what they wrote.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Jon 
Perryman [jperr...@pacbell.net]
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2023 2:29 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question

 > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 09:58:00 PM PDT, Tom Brennan 
 >  wrote:

> Ok, I guess that could mean that if/until someone earns your respect,
> you make fun of them like you did with me, ignore their answers like you
> did with me, and ignore their questions like you did with me.

I give everyone the benefit of the doubt from the start and treat them respect. 
There is simply a point where I think it's obvious that someone is 
intentionally being disrespectful. The vast majority in this group are 
extremely respectful.

As for ignoring questions and responses, that is more often a problem of yahoo 
mail web interface. Tab, backspace and space somehow permanently delete entire 
threads and I can no longer find them (not even in trash). I apologize if I did 
not respond when I should have.

As for making fun of you and I was in the wrong, then I apologize. As a rule, I 
don't act snarky unless something is happening. I don't recall the situation 
but maybe I misinterpreted something you said or maybe incorrectly felt you 
were being disrespectful of someone else. If that was not your intent, then I 
apologize for my mistake.

 On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 09:58:00 PM PDT, Tom Brennan 
 wrote:

 Ok, I guess that could mean that if/until someone earns your respect,
you make fun of them like you did with me, ignore their answers like you
did with me, and ignore their questions like you did with me.

On 7/29/2023 9:14 PM, Jon Perryman wrote:
> I'm civil to those who earn and demonstrate respect instead of demanding it.

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Re: AT-TLS and CSSMTP setup

[Colin Paice]

Getting a GSK trace is non trivial.  See here

for instructions

On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 at 05:36, Peter Vels  wrote:

> That is OK.  But I need to see the output from the GSKSRVR trace to get to
> the bottom of the issue.  I suspect that you are missing a CA somewhere,
> and the trace will tell us WHICH certificate that is.
>
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 at 14:23, Brian Westerman <
> brian_wester...@syzygyinc.com>
> wrote:
>
> > This is what I get from your command:
> >
> > racdcert id(CSSMTP) listr(CSSMTPRing)
> > Digital ring information for user CSSMTP:
> >
> >Ring:
> > >CSSMTPRing<
> >Certificate Label Name Cert Owner USAGE  DEFAULT
> >         ---
> >CSSMTPCA   CERTAUTH   CERTAUTH NO
> >CSSMTPServer   ID(CSSMTP) PERSONAL YES
> > --
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> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >
>
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Re: Ignorant z/OS question

[Tom Brennan]

Sounds good, thanks!

On 7/29/2023 11:29 PM, Jon Perryman wrote:

  > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 09:58:00 PM PDT, Tom Brennan 
 wrote:


Ok, I guess that could mean that if/until someone earns your respect,
you make fun of them like you did with me, ignore their answers like you
did with me, and ignore their questions like you did with me.


I give everyone the benefit of the doubt from the start and treat them respect. 
There is simply a point where I think it's obvious that someone is 
intentionally being disrespectful. The vast majority in this group are 
extremely respectful.

As for ignoring questions and responses, that is more often a problem of yahoo 
mail web interface. Tab, backspace and space somehow permanently delete entire 
threads and I can no longer find them (not even in trash). I apologize if I did 
not respond when I should have.

As for making fun of you and I was in the wrong, then I apologize. As a rule, I 
don't act snarky unless something is happening. I don't recall the situation 
but maybe I misinterpreted something you said or maybe incorrectly felt you 
were being disrespectful of someone else. If that was not your intent, then I 
apologize for my mistake.
  
  On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 09:58:00 PM PDT, Tom Brennan  wrote:
  
  Ok, I guess that could mean that if/until someone earns your respect,

you make fun of them like you did with me, ignore their answers like you
did with me, and ignore their questions like you did with me.

On 7/29/2023 9:14 PM, Jon Perryman wrote:

I'm civil to those who earn and demonstrate respect instead of demanding it.


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Re: Ignorant z/OS question

[Jon Perryman]

 > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 09:58:00 PM PDT, Tom Brennan 
 >  wrote:

> Ok, I guess that could mean that if/until someone earns your respect,
> you make fun of them like you did with me, ignore their answers like you
> did with me, and ignore their questions like you did with me.

I give everyone the benefit of the doubt from the start and treat them respect. 
There is simply a point where I think it's obvious that someone is 
intentionally being disrespectful. The vast majority in this group are 
extremely respectful.

As for ignoring questions and responses, that is more often a problem of yahoo 
mail web interface. Tab, backspace and space somehow permanently delete entire 
threads and I can no longer find them (not even in trash). I apologize if I did 
not respond when I should have. 

As for making fun of you and I was in the wrong, then I apologize. As a rule, I 
don't act snarky unless something is happening. I don't recall the situation 
but maybe I misinterpreted something you said or maybe incorrectly felt you 
were being disrespectful of someone else. If that was not your intent, then I 
apologize for my mistake.
 
 On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 09:58:00 PM PDT, Tom Brennan 
 wrote:  
 
 Ok, I guess that could mean that if/until someone earns your respect, 
you make fun of them like you did with me, ignore their answers like you 
did with me, and ignore their questions like you did with me.

On 7/29/2023 9:14 PM, Jon Perryman wrote:
> I'm civil to those who earn and demonstrate respect instead of demanding it.

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