Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

[Bill Johnson]

False. Read up dimwit.

https://www.jewfaq.org/what_is_judaism




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 4:58 PM, Wayne Bickerdike  
wrote:

Johnson doesn't understand the difference between ethnicity and religion.
How surprising.

On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 4:44 AM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Ok, you’re right, as your fragile ego needs.
>
> As I stated, and proved, I can tell most people’s color and ethnicity just
> using their names. It’s not hard. Most people can do it. I’m neither
> Buddhist or Christian.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 1:22 PM, Seymour J Metz 
> wrote:
>
> I know what you told me. As usual, you're dodging the question and lying
> about those who disagree with you. Saying that I'm Jewish Isn't any closer
> to identifying my ethnicity than saying that You're Buddhist or Christian.
>
> ____
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2023 12:55 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!
>
> I already told you, you’re Jewish. Just like most people can tell I’m
> Swedish. But, you can’t tell where in Sweden my ancestors came. Just as I
> can’t tell (without more research) where your ancestors are from.
>
> As usual, you like to try to prove me wrong. And can’t.
>
> African Americans are more difficult. Because most have names derived from
> or taken from their slave owners. And tracing their roots is almost
> impossible since there is little paper trail. Most traces end in their
> arrival on the east coast. That’s not much of a problem here. There’s not
> many African American systems programmers.
>
> You should watch “Finding Your Roots”. Excellent series. I love
> educational programming.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 12:45 PM, Seymour J Metz 
> wrote:
>
> The question is whether you can, as you claimed, determine my origins from
> my name. You can probably determine whether I am Ashkenazi, Mizrachi or
> Sephardi, but beyond that it is not as easy as you believe.
>
> For that matter, can you tell from his name whether an American-born
> citizen has ancestry from Benin versus Gambia versus Ghana vversus Guinea?
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2023 12:32 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!
>
> You should read some history of the Jewish ghettos of Europe. Also read up
> on the pope declaring “Cum nimis absurdum”. You got to love the Christians
> right? An excerpt.
>
> In 1555, Pope Paul IV issued the “Cum nimis absurdum” proclamation, which
> required the Jews of Rome to live in separate quarters and also severely
> restricted their rights, including what businesses they could engage in.
> The purpose of this edict was to encourage conversion to Catholicism, an
> act that would serve as a ticket out of the ghetto. The ghetto made a clear
> distinction to the wider society between those who were accepted” and those
> who were not. Though anti-Semitism was alive and well in the centuries that
> preceded this papal order, until 1555 the Jews of Rome had enjoyed freedom
> of movement. Under the papal order, they were relocated to a crowded and
> unsanitary area that regularly was flooded by the Tiber River. While the
> ghetto was a place of squalor, the rest of the city was being built up with
> magnificent churches. This contrast allowed the authorities to highlight
> the differences between Jews and Christians, making it seem as though the
> destitute living conditions of the ghetto were the natural consequences of
> denying the divinity of Christ. Though the ghetto was designed to segregate
> Jews, who were seen as a threat to Catholicism, it did not stop Jews and
> Christians from maintaining social and economic interactions; indeed
> Christians were allowed to enter the Roman ghetto during the day.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 11:50 AM, Bill Johnson <
> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> I’ll guarantee you’re Jewish. There aren’t many Irish kids with the first
> name Shmuel. Are you really equating the degree comments as something

Re: Will AI free Bill Johnson? (was AI will surpass human intelligence!)

[Bill Johnson]

If I had started cleaning last year, I could have brought it with me to 
Regensburg. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 2:09 PM, Bernd Oppolzer 
 wrote:

I'd really be interested, because I am collecting historic computer 
related books,
so if - by any chance - you could send it to Germany, I would be happy.
Of course, I would pay you the needed transfer costs.

For exchanging contact information, please send me an offline mail. Thanks.

BTW: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Kudlick


Am 17.09.2023 um 17:04 schrieb Bill Johnson:
> Good news, while cleaning out my basement, I found my college Assembler 
> textbook. Along with my Assembler class final assignment printout. If anyone 
> wants the book, let my know, I’ll gladly give it to you so you can learn it. 
> Self taught of course.
>
> It’s called Assembler Language Programming for the IBM Systems 360 and 370 
> for OS and DOS. Author is Michael D. Kudlick second edition.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN




--
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send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Will AI free Bill Johnson? (was AI will surpass human intelligence!)

[Bill Johnson]

I would gladly send it to you. Send where off list. mellonb...@yahoo.com


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 2:09 PM, Bernd Oppolzer 
 wrote:

I'd really be interested, because I am collecting historic computer 
related books,
so if - by any chance - you could send it to Germany, I would be happy.
Of course, I would pay you the needed transfer costs.

For exchanging contact information, please send me an offline mail. Thanks.

BTW: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Kudlick


Am 17.09.2023 um 17:04 schrieb Bill Johnson:
> Good news, while cleaning out my basement, I found my college Assembler 
> textbook. Along with my Assembler class final assignment printout. If anyone 
> wants the book, let my know, I’ll gladly give it to you so you can learn it. 
> Self taught of course.
>
> It’s called Assembler Language Programming for the IBM Systems 360 and 370 
> for OS and DOS. Author is Michael D. Kudlick second edition.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN




--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

[Bill Johnson]

Ok, you’re right, as your fragile ego needs.

As I stated, and proved, I can tell most people’s color and ethnicity just 
using their names. It’s not hard. Most people can do it. I’m neither Buddhist 
or Christian.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 1:22 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

I know what you told me. As usual, you're dodging the question and lying about 
those who disagree with you. Saying that I'm Jewish Isn't any closer to 
identifying my ethnicity than saying that You're Buddhist or Christian.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2023 12:55 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

I already told you, you’re Jewish. Just like most people can tell I’m Swedish. 
But, you can’t tell where in Sweden my ancestors came. Just as I can’t tell 
(without more research) where your ancestors are from.

As usual, you like to try to prove me wrong. And can’t.

African Americans are more difficult. Because most have names derived from or 
taken from their slave owners. And tracing their roots is almost impossible 
since there is little paper trail. Most traces end in their arrival on the east 
coast. That’s not much of a problem here. There’s not many African American 
systems programmers.

You should watch “Finding Your Roots”. Excellent series. I love educational 
programming.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 12:45 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

The question is whether you can, as you claimed, determine my origins from my 
name. You can probably determine whether I am Ashkenazi, Mizrachi or Sephardi, 
but beyond that it is not as easy as you believe.

For that matter, can you tell from his name whether an American-born citizen 
has ancestry from Benin versus Gambia versus Ghana vversus Guinea?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2023 12:32 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

You should read some history of the Jewish ghettos of Europe. Also read up on 
the pope declaring “Cum nimis absurdum”. You got to love the Christians right? 
An excerpt.

In 1555, Pope Paul IV issued the “Cum nimis absurdum” proclamation, which 
required the Jews of Rome to live in separate quarters and also severely 
restricted their rights, including what businesses they could engage in. The 
purpose of this edict was to encourage conversion to Catholicism, an act that 
would serve as a ticket out of the ghetto. The ghetto made a clear distinction 
to the wider society between those who were accepted” and those who were not. 
Though anti-Semitism was alive and well in the centuries that preceded this 
papal order, until 1555 the Jews of Rome had enjoyed freedom of movement. Under 
the papal order, they were relocated to a crowded and unsanitary area that 
regularly was flooded by the Tiber River. While the ghetto was a place of 
squalor, the rest of the city was being built up with magnificent churches. 
This contrast allowed the authorities to highlight the differences between Jews 
and Christians, making it seem as though the destitute living conditions of the 
ghetto were the natural consequences of denying the divinity of Christ. Though 
the ghetto was designed to segregate Jews, who were seen as a threat to 
Catholicism, it did not stop Jews and Christians from maintaining social and 
economic interactions; indeed Christians were allowed to enter the Roman ghetto 
during the day.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 11:50 AM, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

I’ll guarantee you’re Jewish. There aren’t many Irish kids with the first name 
Shmuel. Are you really equating the degree comments as something I can 
determine in actuality? Really? Snowdon is from the old English meaning snow 
hill. (Snow dun) Williams is from old German. (Wilhelm) It’s easy to tell most 
people’s ethnicity from their names.

Here’s some help for you.

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1UYI-6B0pT8CfY2vwZ5Cak5kS32Ue-VZ0Y0U22Q5CiZ2CJZ9rvI89gSWf_dA9KtORFKLx14XsQ8JYWVmAlTg5kt_EAIz4sjSFHgaXxZLdeb9z3TN1Lp___CdnPd4he268_eyYVOLkNTMcRD8O5QmDjFtKnx0c0wEqZRpnoIUtrmWSWGBzcXStK6RVqXgZFSfWZXH073HeTxE8wXQtEx4eDVMrHMbQJF31Uqi0fX_h8VAWw8dtRm5XS2DTV9lT46D-ZbmMBcxARaUHlWMDd7Zp2ot0YUMB6X5d-hBpEL0xpiIRvT9y_-rZ2U81JZ9CuCBkbAxETWX866XSMD9fd07RDmgpCH_zITdsVICzNR9_N9KWNU_dAxpTjshSu79SH2pcF3uxV04w-RYzMSk2ApJiSoMJNw30oC9JKzu7O0XeM1Y/https%3A%2F%2Fnamsor.app%2F


Many blacks have acquired their last names from their slave owners.

A good source of information is via the PBS show “Finding Your Roots” with 
Henry Louis Gates Jr. It’s one of my favorite shows.


Se

Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

[Bill Johnson]

I already told you, you’re Jewish. Just like most people can tell I’m Swedish. 
But, you can’t tell where in Sweden my ancestors came. Just as I can’t tell 
(without more research) where your ancestors are from. 

As usual, you like to try to prove me wrong. And can’t.

African Americans are more difficult. Because most have names derived from or 
taken from their slave owners. And tracing their roots is almost impossible 
since there is little paper trail. Most traces end in their arrival on the east 
coast. That’s not much of a problem here. There’s not many African American 
systems programmers.

You should watch “Finding Your Roots”. Excellent series. I love educational 
programming.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 12:45 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

The question is whether you can, as you claimed, determine my origins from my 
name. You can probably determine whether I am Ashkenazi, Mizrachi or Sephardi, 
but beyond that it is not as easy as you believe.

For that matter, can you tell from his name whether an American-born citizen 
has ancestry from Benin versus Gambia versus Ghana vversus Guinea?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2023 12:32 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

You should read some history of the Jewish ghettos of Europe. Also read up on 
the pope declaring “Cum nimis absurdum”. You got to love the Christians right? 
An excerpt.

In 1555, Pope Paul IV issued the “Cum nimis absurdum” proclamation, which 
required the Jews of Rome to live in separate quarters and also severely 
restricted their rights, including what businesses they could engage in. The 
purpose of this edict was to encourage conversion to Catholicism, an act that 
would serve as a ticket out of the ghetto. The ghetto made a clear distinction 
to the wider society between those who were accepted” and those who were not. 
Though anti-Semitism was alive and well in the centuries that preceded this 
papal order, until 1555 the Jews of Rome had enjoyed freedom of movement. Under 
the papal order, they were relocated to a crowded and unsanitary area that 
regularly was flooded by the Tiber River. While the ghetto was a place of 
squalor, the rest of the city was being built up with magnificent churches. 
This contrast allowed the authorities to highlight the differences between Jews 
and Christians, making it seem as though the destitute living conditions of the 
ghetto were the natural consequences of denying the divinity of Christ. Though 
the ghetto was designed to segregate Jews, who were seen as a threat to 
Catholicism, it did not stop Jews and Christians from maintaining social and 
economic interactions; indeed Christians were allowed to enter the Roman ghetto 
during the day.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 11:50 AM, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

I’ll guarantee you’re Jewish. There aren’t many Irish kids with the first name 
Shmuel. Are you really equating the degree comments as something I can 
determine in actuality? Really? Snowdon is from the old English meaning snow 
hill. (Snow dun) Williams is from old German. (Wilhelm) It’s easy to tell most 
people’s ethnicity from their names.

Here’s some help for you.

https://namsor.app/


Many blacks have acquired their last names from their slave owners.

A good source of information is via the PBS show “Finding Your Roots” with 
Henry Louis Gates Jr. It’s one of my favorite shows.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 11:32 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> Essentially every belief you attributed to me. Who attended SHARE. Who had a 
> degree. Knowing the ethnicity of posters.

Pop quiz. What is the Ethnicity of Snowden Williams? Where did my ancestors 
live in the 19th and 20th centuries?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2023 10:53 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

Which of my facts aren’t true? Assembler is dying. Confirmed by one of 
Assembler’s experts, Ray Mullins.

With a name like Bill Johnson, I would either be Scandinavian or black most 
likely. I’m the former. Swedish mostly. Are you aware of how Swedes are named?

Here’s some context easily found on the web on highly credible sites.

First names often provide information such as gender and historical trends, 
cultural backgrounds, and nationality. Last names provide information on the 
roots of the family system and the origin of ethnicity. Using both can increase 
the chances of being able to predict someone's ethnicity with greater 
confidence.

Sent fr

Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

[Bill Johnson]

You should read some history of the Jewish ghettos of Europe. Also read up on 
the pope declaring “Cum nimis absurdum”. You got to love the Christians right? 
An excerpt. 

In 1555, Pope Paul IV issued the “Cum nimis absurdum” proclamation, which 
required the Jews of Rome to live in separate quarters and also severely 
restricted their rights, including what businesses they could engage in. The 
purpose of this edict was to encourage conversion to Catholicism, an act that 
would serve as a ticket out of the ghetto. The ghetto made a clear distinction 
to the wider society between those who were accepted” and those who were not. 
Though anti-Semitism was alive and well in the centuries that preceded this 
papal order, until 1555 the Jews of Rome had enjoyed freedom of movement. Under 
the papal order, they were relocated to a crowded and unsanitary area that 
regularly was flooded by the Tiber River. While the ghetto was a place of 
squalor, the rest of the city was being built up with magnificent churches. 
This contrast allowed the authorities to highlight the differences between Jews 
and Christians, making it seem as though the destitute living conditions of the 
ghetto were the natural consequences of denying the divinity of Christ. Though 
the ghetto was designed to segregate Jews, who were seen as a threat to 
Catholicism, it did not stop Jews and Christians from maintaining social and 
economic interactions; indeed Christians were allowed to enter the Roman ghetto 
during the day.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 11:50 AM, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

I’ll guarantee you’re Jewish. There aren’t many Irish kids with the first name 
Shmuel. Are you really equating the degree comments as something I can 
determine in actuality? Really? Snowdon is from the old English meaning snow 
hill. (Snow dun) Williams is from old German. (Wilhelm) It’s easy to tell most 
people’s ethnicity from their names.

Here’s some help for you.

https://namsor.app/


Many blacks have acquired their last names from their slave owners.

A good source of information is via the PBS show “Finding Your Roots” with 
Henry Louis Gates Jr. It’s one of my favorite shows. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 11:32 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> Essentially every belief you attributed to me. Who attended SHARE. Who had a 
> degree. Knowing the ethnicity of posters.

Pop quiz. What is the Ethnicity of Snowden Williams? Where did my ancestors 
live in the 19th and 20th centuries?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2023 10:53 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

Which of my facts aren’t true? Assembler is dying. Confirmed by one of 
Assembler’s experts, Ray Mullins.

With a name like Bill Johnson, I would either be Scandinavian or black most 
likely. I’m the former. Swedish mostly. Are you aware of how Swedes are named?

Here’s some context easily found on the web on highly credible sites.

First names often provide information such as gender and historical trends, 
cultural backgrounds, and nationality. Last names provide information on the 
roots of the family system and the origin of ethnicity. Using both can increase 
the chances of being able to predict someone's ethnicity with greater 
confidence.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 10:30 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> I have a talent for facts.

ObSeanSpicer Alternative facts.

> anyone can tell with near certainty the color and ethnicity of
> most posters here simply based on their names.

 It's unfortunate that being certain and being correct are two very different 
things. FWIW, I would have guessed from your name that you were of Anglo-Saxon 
ancestry, but you claim otherwise.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 10:38 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

I have a talent for facts. Which I’ve posted throughout this diatribe. The 
problem is many of you don’t like someone outside the cult showing you up so 
you attack and make ridiculous accusations and idiotic comparisons like the 
college one.

Fact - assembler is dying a slow tortuous death.

Fact - anyone can tell with near certainty the color and ethnicity of most 
posters here simply based on their names.




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, September 16, 2023, 1:09 AM, g...@gabegold.com  
wrote:

You could also incorrectly "tell" that I didn't have a college degree.

You have a talent for gratuitous insults and an obsession with starting and 
then a

Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

[Bill Johnson]

I agree with Ray Mullins, Assembler is a niche market and shrinking.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 12:01 PM, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Dying can be slow or fast. Assembler has been dying a slow death for decades. 
Yeah, it could go on for a decade or two but with far fewer programmers (most 
are older) and less need. (Because far fewer programmers and more user friendly 
replacements)

At no point has the mainframe been shrinking in actual workloads. Ever. Only in 
install base with small to midsized companies who can’t afford the platform.

Most everything else I agree.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 11:35 AM, Dean Kent  wrote:

Definitions are important or else words are subject to widely varying 
interpretations.   'dying' appears to be equated to 'extinct' in these 
claims.  I suggest that as long as someone needs to understand the 
underlying architecture of a computer, assembler language will be a 
useful skill for them - as a learning tool, if nothing else.  It may not 
be a good choice for a college to create a curriculum, but certainly a 
few might be able to offer a class or two and have 20-50 students in it 
each year.

In 1991 Stewart Alsop infamously predicted the end of mainframes by 
1996.   He seemed to be very certain, based on the trends he was 
observing.   In other words, at that time mainframes were 'dying'.    In 
the mid-2000s the developers I worked with (whose primary coding 
language was assembler) were very paranoid that their jobs would be 
outsourced to India, because so many other mainframe jobs had been 
(operations, application development, etc.).    My observation was that 
this would be very unlikely because India had no incentive to develop an 
education infrastructure that might be useful for only a few thousand 
students (at most).   Instead, by focusing on COBOL, C, Java, HTML, CSS, 
Javascript, etc. they could educate and provide useful (saleable) skills 
to many millions.

There have been more than a few threads on this list about how 
mainframes are dying as fewer 'new' installations are identified.   
Those debates have been just as vehement.   The reality seems to be that 
mainframes are here to stay for a long time, and therefore HLASM skills 
will be necessary for a long time for at least a few folks.   I'm sure 
IBM will make sure that internally there are assembler experts educated 
and employed inside the company.  The same is likely true for vendors of 
other hardware/operating systems.

As for AI taking over that role, I am really skeptical. I am doing some 
education on machine learning and what it involves. The term implies the 
AI gets feedback regarding the accuracy of its 
conclusions/predictions/etc. - presumably from humans.   If a human is 
not able to verify the accuracy of the results, how does the machine 
learn?   You can ask AI to 'write an assembler program' to do something, 
but how do you know it works?   Either you test it and simply say "no, 
that's not it" (which is almost useless for machine learning) or you 
have a subject matter expert analyze it and provide a correction.   At 
what point do you no longer need a subject matter expert?    When every 
problem has been solved?   If every problem has not yet been solved, 
doesn't someone need to verify the results of any AI generated solution, 
and provide useful feedback on what needs to be changed?

Currently, one can find a great many examples of coding solutions in 
popular languages in various easily searched open source repositories, 
and with many millions with expertise able to provide feedback AI can 
learn very quickly.   Most assembler solutions are proprietary, and 
therefore not searchable.   Even if you were to search CBT online you 
wouldn't find a lot of details until you download, extract and then 
analyze the code.   Even then, detailed descriptions of what a 
particular section of code is doing and how each piece relates to a 
specific action (DCB vs OPEN/CLOSE vs GET/PUT, etc.) would take a bit 
more analysis and feedback.   Could AI do it?   Sure, eventually - when 
experts provide the feedback necessary for an AI to 'learn' what is and 
is not correct, but with relatively few of them in the world and most of 
those having little to no incentive to 'teach' the AI proprietary 
information that the 'unwashed masses' could utilize freely and easily, 
I don't see it happening for many years.

My conclusion is that those with current assembler skills are safe for 
as long as they want to practice it professionally - including those 
just starting their careers.   I certainly wouldn't recommend to 
everyone as a career objective - but a few will find a career, and the 
rest may find that the understanding they gain of the underlying 
architecture and hardware will be useful in finding other professional 
opportunities... including wri

Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

[Bill Johnson]

 necessary to respond to every 
single reply and retort, then I matured.

I now return you to your regular programming...

On 9/17/2023 7:53 AM, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Which of my facts aren’t true? Assembler is dying. Confirmed by one of 
> Assembler’s experts, Ray Mullins.
>
> With a name like Bill Johnson, I would either be Scandinavian or black most 
> likely. I’m the former. Swedish mostly. Are you aware of how Swedes are named?
>
> Here’s some context easily found on the web on highly credible sites.
>
> First names often provide information such as gender and historical trends, 
> cultural backgrounds, and nationality. Last names provide information on the 
> roots of the family system and the origin of ethnicity. Using both can 
> increase the chances of being able to predict someone's ethnicity with 
> greater confidence.
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 10:30 AM, Seymour J Metz  
> wrote:
>
>> I have a talent for facts.
> ObSeanSpicer Alternative facts.
>
>> anyone can tell with near certainty the color and ethnicity of
>> most posters here simply based on their names.
>  It's unfortunate that being certain and being correct are two very different 
>things. FWIW, I would have guessed from your name that you were of Anglo-Saxon 
>ancestry, but you claim otherwise.
> ____
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
> Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 10:38 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!
>
> I have a talent for facts. Which I’ve posted throughout this diatribe. The 
> problem is many of you don’t like someone outside the cult showing you up so 
> you attack and make ridiculous accusations and idiotic comparisons like the 
> college one.
>
> Fact - assembler is dying a slow tortuous death.
>
> Fact - anyone can tell with near certainty the color and ethnicity of most 
> posters here simply based on their names.
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Saturday, September 16, 2023, 1:09 AM, g...@gabegold.com 
>  wrote:
>
> You could also incorrectly "tell" that I didn't have a college degree.
>
> You have a talent for gratuitous insults and an obsession with starting and 
> then arguing about wild digressions from whatever was the topic at hand.
>
> AI to assembler language to system programming demographics is quite the 
> meander; each of those would have been worth separate discussions, but not in 
> the unpleasant way you bring them up and then harangue anyone who disagrees 
> with you.
>
> A basic question is why, since you disdain everyone here and disagree with 
> most of what people say, you're still here. You're not changing minds, not 
> making friends, not providing useful information, and not contributing 
> anything. You're excellent at trolling though, which seems to be your sad 
> reason for being. So you're entertaining, in a ghastly sort of way.
>
> On Fri, 15 Sep 2023 18:33:25 +, Bill Johnson  wrote:
>
>> Are you that naive? Ever been to Share? The current makeup of mainframe 
>> systems programmers is 65% white, 15% Asian, 9% Hispanic & 5% African 
>> American. Factoring in most of the heavy posters are over 50, the 
>> demographics are even more white since almost all systems programmers who 
>> got into IT in the 50’s through the 70’s were almost exclusively white. 
>> Guess what? I can also tell which people are Jewish, Asian, Hispanic, 
>> Scandinavian, Irish, and most other ethnicities. That’s not nearly as easy 
>> but it’s not as difficult as you’d think. I’d bet Oujeski isn’t a black guy. 
>> My Father in Law’s name was Majewski.
> --
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>
>
>
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Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

[Bill Johnson]

I’ll guarantee you’re Jewish. There aren’t many Irish kids with the first name 
Shmuel. Are you really equating the degree comments as something I can 
determine in actuality? Really? Snowdon is from the old English meaning snow 
hill. (Snow dun) Williams is from old German. (Wilhelm) It’s easy to tell most 
people’s ethnicity from their names.

Here’s some help for you.

https://namsor.app/


Many blacks have acquired their last names from their slave owners.

A good source of information is via the PBS show “Finding Your Roots” with 
Henry Louis Gates Jr. It’s one of my favorite shows. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 11:32 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> Essentially every belief you attributed to me. Who attended SHARE. Who had a 
> degree. Knowing the ethnicity of posters.

Pop quiz. What is the Ethnicity of Snowden Williams? Where did my ancestors 
live in the 19th and 20th centuries?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2023 10:53 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

Which of my facts aren’t true? Assembler is dying. Confirmed by one of 
Assembler’s experts, Ray Mullins.

With a name like Bill Johnson, I would either be Scandinavian or black most 
likely. I’m the former. Swedish mostly. Are you aware of how Swedes are named?

Here’s some context easily found on the web on highly credible sites.

First names often provide information such as gender and historical trends, 
cultural backgrounds, and nationality. Last names provide information on the 
roots of the family system and the origin of ethnicity. Using both can increase 
the chances of being able to predict someone's ethnicity with greater 
confidence.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 10:30 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> I have a talent for facts.

ObSeanSpicer Alternative facts.

> anyone can tell with near certainty the color and ethnicity of
> most posters here simply based on their names.

 It's unfortunate that being certain and being correct are two very different 
things. FWIW, I would have guessed from your name that you were of Anglo-Saxon 
ancestry, but you claim otherwise.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 10:38 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

I have a talent for facts. Which I’ve posted throughout this diatribe. The 
problem is many of you don’t like someone outside the cult showing you up so 
you attack and make ridiculous accusations and idiotic comparisons like the 
college one.

Fact - assembler is dying a slow tortuous death.

Fact - anyone can tell with near certainty the color and ethnicity of most 
posters here simply based on their names.




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, September 16, 2023, 1:09 AM, g...@gabegold.com  
wrote:

You could also incorrectly "tell" that I didn't have a college degree.

You have a talent for gratuitous insults and an obsession with starting and 
then arguing about wild digressions from whatever was the topic at hand.

AI to assembler language to system programming demographics is quite the 
meander; each of those would have been worth separate discussions, but not in 
the unpleasant way you bring them up and then harangue anyone who disagrees 
with you.

A basic question is why, since you disdain everyone here and disagree with most 
of what people say, you're still here. You're not changing minds, not making 
friends, not providing useful information, and not contributing anything. 
You're excellent at trolling though, which seems to be your sad reason for 
being. So you're entertaining, in a ghastly sort of way.

On Fri, 15 Sep 2023 18:33:25 +, Bill Johnson  wrote:

>Are you that naive? Ever been to Share? The current makeup of mainframe 
>systems programmers is 65% white, 15% Asian, 9% Hispanic & 5% African 
>American. Factoring in most of the heavy posters are over 50, the demographics 
>are even more white since almost all systems programmers who got into IT in 
>the 50’s through the 70’s were almost exclusively white. Guess what? I can 
>also tell which people are Jewish, Asian, Hispanic, Scandinavian, Irish, and 
>most other ethnicities. That’s not nearly as easy but it’s not as difficult as 
>you’d think. I’d bet Oujeski isn’t a black guy. My Father in Law’s name was 
>Majewski.

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Re: Will AI free Bill Johnson? (was AI will surpass human intelligence!)

[Bill Johnson]

I remember the Share conferences in which I was there for the training and most 
of you were there for the after hours beers. There are few disagreements here. 
It’s a white frat boy cult. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 10:24 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> The pack mentality here is amazing. 

Yeah, a pack of cats. I guess that your super intelligence hasn't picked up on 
all of the disagreements here that don't involve you.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 11:58 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Will AI free Bill Johnson? (was AI will surpass human 
intelligence!)

The pack mentality here is amazing.

Pack mentality is a phenomenon in which people make decisions based upon the 
actions of others, sometimes without even realizing it. It stems from the 
animalistic drive to want to fit in. We are social and status-seeking animals.



Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, September 16, 2023, 11:55 AM, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

The only reason I stay here is for the lachen. But 40+ years of working with 
dummkopf coworkers like the ones here was quite lucrative and very 
entertaining. It’s a cult.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, September 16, 2023, 11:45 AM, Bernd Oppolzer 
 wrote:

So sad. No laugh for a long time. I am laughing all the time :-)

Am 16.09.2023 um 17:23 schrieb Bill Johnson:
> I’m going to laugh when AI replaces many of you assembler deniers. The under 
> 40 for sure. Maybe the under 50.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Saturday, September 16, 2023, 11:00 AM, Bernd Oppolzer 
>  wrote:
>
> Let's see if Bill comments on this ...
> if not, maybe the AI that wrote all the provocations now prefers to be
> silent on this
> to protect itself from exposure?
> Does AI have a sense of humour?
>
> Am 16.09.2023 um 08:28 schrieb Andrew Wilkinson:
>> You could be right.
>> However, my mental image is of the real Bill Johnson gagged and tied to a 
>> chair in his basement
>> while a wicked AI posts provocations to this list in order to study human 
>> nature. Cheers, Andrew

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Re: Will AI free Bill Johnson? (was AI will surpass human intelligence!)

[Bill Johnson]

Good news, while cleaning out my basement, I found my college Assembler 
textbook. Along with my Assembler class final assignment printout. If anyone 
wants the book, let my know, I’ll gladly give it to you so you can learn it. 
Self taught of course.

It’s called Assembler Language Programming for the IBM Systems 360 and 370 for 
OS and DOS. Author is Michael D. Kudlick second edition.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 10:24 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> The pack mentality here is amazing. 

Yeah, a pack of cats. I guess that your super intelligence hasn't picked up on 
all of the disagreements here that don't involve you.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 11:58 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Will AI free Bill Johnson? (was AI will surpass human 
intelligence!)

The pack mentality here is amazing.

Pack mentality is a phenomenon in which people make decisions based upon the 
actions of others, sometimes without even realizing it. It stems from the 
animalistic drive to want to fit in. We are social and status-seeking animals.



Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, September 16, 2023, 11:55 AM, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

The only reason I stay here is for the lachen. But 40+ years of working with 
dummkopf coworkers like the ones here was quite lucrative and very 
entertaining. It’s a cult.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, September 16, 2023, 11:45 AM, Bernd Oppolzer 
 wrote:

So sad. No laugh for a long time. I am laughing all the time :-)

Am 16.09.2023 um 17:23 schrieb Bill Johnson:
> I’m going to laugh when AI replaces many of you assembler deniers. The under 
> 40 for sure. Maybe the under 50.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Saturday, September 16, 2023, 11:00 AM, Bernd Oppolzer 
>  wrote:
>
> Let's see if Bill comments on this ...
> if not, maybe the AI that wrote all the provocations now prefers to be
> silent on this
> to protect itself from exposure?
> Does AI have a sense of humour?
>
> Am 16.09.2023 um 08:28 schrieb Andrew Wilkinson:
>> You could be right.
>> However, my mental image is of the real Bill Johnson gagged and tied to a 
>> chair in his basement
>> while a wicked AI posts provocations to this list in order to study human 
>> nature. Cheers, Andrew

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Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

[Bill Johnson]

Which of my facts aren’t true? Assembler is dying. Confirmed by one of 
Assembler’s experts, Ray Mullins.

With a name like Bill Johnson, I would either be Scandinavian or black most 
likely. I’m the former. Swedish mostly. Are you aware of how Swedes are named?

Here’s some context easily found on the web on highly credible sites. 

First names often provide information such as gender and historical trends, 
cultural backgrounds, and nationality. Last names provide information on the 
roots of the family system and the origin of ethnicity. Using both can increase 
the chances of being able to predict someone's ethnicity with greater 
confidence.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 17, 2023, 10:30 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> I have a talent for facts.

ObSeanSpicer Alternative facts.

> anyone can tell with near certainty the color and ethnicity of 
> most posters here simply based on their names.

 It's unfortunate that being certain and being correct are two very different 
things. FWIW, I would have guessed from your name that you were of Anglo-Saxon 
ancestry, but you claim otherwise.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 10:38 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

I have a talent for facts. Which I’ve posted throughout this diatribe. The 
problem is many of you don’t like someone outside the cult showing you up so 
you attack and make ridiculous accusations and idiotic comparisons like the 
college one.

Fact - assembler is dying a slow tortuous death.

Fact - anyone can tell with near certainty the color and ethnicity of most 
posters here simply based on their names.




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, September 16, 2023, 1:09 AM, g...@gabegold.com  
wrote:

You could also incorrectly "tell" that I didn't have a college degree.

You have a talent for gratuitous insults and an obsession with starting and 
then arguing about wild digressions from whatever was the topic at hand.

AI to assembler language to system programming demographics is quite the 
meander; each of those would have been worth separate discussions, but not in 
the unpleasant way you bring them up and then harangue anyone who disagrees 
with you.

A basic question is why, since you disdain everyone here and disagree with most 
of what people say, you're still here. You're not changing minds, not making 
friends, not providing useful information, and not contributing anything. 
You're excellent at trolling though, which seems to be your sad reason for 
being. So you're entertaining, in a ghastly sort of way.

On Fri, 15 Sep 2023 18:33:25 +, Bill Johnson  wrote:

>Are you that naive? Ever been to Share? The current makeup of mainframe 
>systems programmers is 65% white, 15% Asian, 9% Hispanic & 5% African 
>American. Factoring in most of the heavy posters are over 50, the demographics 
>are even more white since almost all systems programmers who got into IT in 
>the 50’s through the 70’s were almost exclusively white. Guess what? I can 
>also tell which people are Jewish, Asian, Hispanic, Scandinavian, Irish, and 
>most other ethnicities. That’s not nearly as easy but it’s not as difficult as 
>you’d think. I’d bet Oujeski isn’t a black guy. My Father in Law’s name was 
>Majewski.

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Re: Will AI free Bill Johnson? (was AI will surpass human intelligence!)

[Bill Johnson]

The pack mentality here is amazing. 

Pack mentality is a phenomenon in which people make decisions based upon the 
actions of others, sometimes without even realizing it. It stems from the 
animalistic drive to want to fit in. We are social and status-seeking animals.



Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, September 16, 2023, 11:55 AM, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

The only reason I stay here is for the lachen. But 40+ years of working with 
dummkopf coworkers like the ones here was quite lucrative and very 
entertaining. It’s a cult.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, September 16, 2023, 11:45 AM, Bernd Oppolzer 
 wrote:

So sad. No laugh for a long time. I am laughing all the time :-)

Am 16.09.2023 um 17:23 schrieb Bill Johnson:
> I’m going to laugh when AI replaces many of you assembler deniers. The under 
> 40 for sure. Maybe the under 50.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Saturday, September 16, 2023, 11:00 AM, Bernd Oppolzer 
>  wrote:
>
> Let's see if Bill comments on this ...
> if not, maybe the AI that wrote all the provocations now prefers to be
> silent on this
> to protect itself from exposure?
> Does AI have a sense of humour?
>
> Am 16.09.2023 um 08:28 schrieb Andrew Wilkinson:
>> You could be right.
>> However, my mental image is of the real Bill Johnson gagged and tied to a 
>> chair in his basement
>> while a wicked AI posts provocations to this list in order to study human 
>> nature. Cheers, Andrew

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Re: Will AI free Bill Johnson? (was AI will surpass human intelligence!)

[Bill Johnson]

The only reason I stay here is for the lachen. But 40+ years of working with 
dummkopf coworkers like the ones here was quite lucrative and very 
entertaining. It’s a cult.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, September 16, 2023, 11:45 AM, Bernd Oppolzer 
 wrote:

So sad. No laugh for a long time. I am laughing all the time :-)

Am 16.09.2023 um 17:23 schrieb Bill Johnson:
> I’m going to laugh when AI replaces many of you assembler deniers. The under 
> 40 for sure. Maybe the under 50.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Saturday, September 16, 2023, 11:00 AM, Bernd Oppolzer 
>  wrote:
>
> Let's see if Bill comments on this ...
> if not, maybe the AI that wrote all the provocations now prefers to be
> silent on this
> to protect itself from exposure?
> Does AI have a sense of humour?
>
> Am 16.09.2023 um 08:28 schrieb Andrew Wilkinson:
>> You could be right.
>> However, my mental image is of the real Bill Johnson gagged and tied to a 
>> chair in his basement
>> while a wicked AI posts provocations to this list in order to study human 
>> nature. Cheers, Andrew

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Re: Will AI free Bill Johnson? (was AI will surpass human intelligence!)

[Bill Johnson]

I’m going to laugh when AI replaces many of you assembler deniers. The under 40 
for sure. Maybe the under 50.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, September 16, 2023, 11:00 AM, Bernd Oppolzer 
 wrote:

Let's see if Bill comments on this ...
if not, maybe the AI that wrote all the provocations now prefers to be 
silent on this
to protect itself from exposure?
Does AI have a sense of humour?

Am 16.09.2023 um 08:28 schrieb Andrew Wilkinson:
> You could be right.
> However, my mental image is of the real Bill Johnson gagged and tied to a 
> chair in his basement
> while a wicked AI posts provocations to this list in order to study human 
> nature. Cheers, Andrew

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Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

[Bill Johnson]

I agree with much of what you stated with these comments.

We currently have numerous “media” outlets who spew propaganda and lies. So I’m 
pretty certain AI will improve upon that. Misinformation is out there but I 
believe it will be overwhelmed by the truth.

Certainly it will be regulated as various governments and the AI community is 
already working on them.

Yes, the danger of misusing AI is there. Fox news comes to mind. They spew lies 
for profit every day. Until Dominion and Smartmatic sue for damages.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, September 15, 2023, 6:06 PM, Joel C. Ewing  
wrote:

Getting back on-topic,...

  AI may easily surpass humans in the ability to analyze and deduce 
conclusions from a large amount of data and propose actions -- it 
already has in a number of areas.  One problem that arises in that there 
is a considerable amount of data loose in the real world that is 
misinformation, and too much garbage-in still produces garbage-out.  
That many humans have problems telling the different between fact and 
fiction, have biases on choices of data, and humans will be choosing the 
sources of data to program the AI will inevitably cause some problems.

The general public is already displaying an indifference to the 
limitations of AI and abusing AI:  asking questions of AI apps in areas 
for which the AI is poorly trained and trusting fallible responses as 
being authoritative because they are produced by a machine.

The real problems and dangers of unregulated AI become clear if and when 
AI is given the power to make and implement life and death decisions 
without adequate human oversight, or to propose actions that humans 
might blindly follow in a life or death situation.  The science fiction 
genre is full of plots that suggest how badly this can go.

When you grant AI the power to make decisions and take actions in the 
real world, most of us want not just intelligence involved, but also 
wisdom and morality.  Most want decisions that can impact their lives to 
be constrained by a moral compass of what is right and fair.   We have 
no idea how to build that awareness into AI; and since there may be no 
general agreement on whose standard of morality to use, that may be an 
impossible task.  Even if there were agreement on the morality that 
should be designed into AI, and an understanding of how to do it, do we 
trust fallible humans to implement it without error?

We need to be very cautious for the short and long term about what kinds 
of decisions and actions we entrust to AI.

A legitimate concern is that if future AI regulation or its enforcement 
is inadequate, some individual or corporation with more power & money 
than wisdom may go rogue, ignore whatever AI restrictions are in place, 
and create a dangerous AI, just because they believe it will enhance 
their short-term profit.

     JC Ewing

On 9/15/23 13:50, Ituriel do Neto wrote:
> I don't believe we are having this kind of discussion here.
>
>
> Best Regards
>
> Ituriel do Nascimento Neto
> z/OS System Programmer
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Em sexta-feira, 15 de setembro de 2023 às 15:34:14 BRT, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> escreveu:
>
>
>
>
>
> Are you that naive? Ever been to Share? The current makeup of mainframe 
> systems programmers is 65% white, 15% Asian, 9% Hispanic & 5% African 
> American. Factoring in most of the heavy posters are over 50, the 
> demographics are even more white since almost all systems programmers who got 
> into IT in the 50’s through the 70’s were almost exclusively white. Guess 
> what? I can also tell which people are Jewish, Asian, Hispanic, Scandinavian, 
> Irish, and most other ethnicities. That’s not nearly as easy but it’s not as 
> difficult as you’d think. I’d bet Oujeski isn’t a black guy. My Father in 
> Law’s name was Majewski.
>
> Almost all IT workers back then were men too. Ever notice the absence of 
> female posters here?
>
>
> A simple check from the bureau of labor statistics from the 50's, 60's, and 
> 70's is quite the fantasy buster I need.
>
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Friday, September 15, 2023, 12:55 PM, Seymour J Metz  
> wrote:
>
> Only in your fantasy world is it possible to tell the skin color of an e-mail 
> poster whom you have never met. I have you reason to believe that your 
> antagonists are mostly White, and no reason to believe your implicit claim 
> not to be. For all I know, you might be a klan member lying about his skin 
> color.
>
> Now, statistically, it's likely that most of the US posters calling you out 
> are White, but this is an international list.
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
> Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@l

Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

[Bill Johnson]

I have a talent for facts. Which I’ve posted throughout this diatribe. The 
problem is many of you don’t like someone outside the cult showing you up so 
you attack and make ridiculous accusations and idiotic comparisons like the 
college one.

Fact - assembler is dying a slow tortuous death.

Fact - anyone can tell with near certainty the color and ethnicity of most 
posters here simply based on their names.




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, September 16, 2023, 1:09 AM, g...@gabegold.com  
wrote:

You could also incorrectly "tell" that I didn't have a college degree.

You have a talent for gratuitous insults and an obsession with starting and 
then arguing about wild digressions from whatever was the topic at hand.

AI to assembler language to system programming demographics is quite the 
meander; each of those would have been worth separate discussions, but not in 
the unpleasant way you bring them up and then harangue anyone who disagrees 
with you.

A basic question is why, since you disdain everyone here and disagree with most 
of what people say, you're still here. You're not changing minds, not making 
friends, not providing useful information, and not contributing anything. 
You're excellent at trolling though, which seems to be your sad reason for 
being. So you're entertaining, in a ghastly sort of way.

On Fri, 15 Sep 2023 18:33:25 +0000, Bill Johnson  wrote:

>Are you that naive? Ever been to Share? The current makeup of mainframe 
>systems programmers is 65% white, 15% Asian, 9% Hispanic & 5% African 
>American. Factoring in most of the heavy posters are over 50, the demographics 
>are even more white since almost all systems programmers who got into IT in 
>the 50’s through the 70’s were almost exclusively white. Guess what? I can 
>also tell which people are Jewish, Asian, Hispanic, Scandinavian, Irish, and 
>most other ethnicities. That’s not nearly as easy but it’s not as difficult as 
>you’d think. I’d bet Oujeski isn’t a black guy. My Father in Law’s name was 
>Majewski.

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Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

[Bill Johnson]

Are you that naive? Ever been to Share? The current makeup of mainframe systems 
programmers is 65% white, 15% Asian, 9% Hispanic & 5% African American. 
Factoring in most of the heavy posters are over 50, the demographics are even 
more white since almost all systems programmers who got into IT in the 50’s 
through the 70’s were almost exclusively white. Guess what? I can also tell 
which people are Jewish, Asian, Hispanic, Scandinavian, Irish, and most other 
ethnicities. That’s not nearly as easy but it’s not as difficult as you’d 
think. I’d bet Oujeski isn’t a black guy. My Father in Law’s name was Majewski.

Almost all IT workers back then were men too. Ever notice the absence of female 
posters here?


A simple check from the bureau of labor statistics from the 50's, 60's, and 
70's is quite the fantasy buster I need.



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On Friday, September 15, 2023, 12:55 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

Only in your fantasy world is it possible to tell the skin color of an e-mail 
poster whom you have never met. I have you reason to believe that your 
antagonists are mostly White, and no reason to believe your implicit claim not 
to be. For all I know, you might be a klan member lying about his skin color.

Now, statistically, it's likely that most of the US posters calling you out are 
White, but this is an international list.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2023 12:02 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

So no problem with his attack on me, but I retaliate and it’s banning time. 
This is a white frat boy cult site. Nobody dares challenge the hierarchy.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, September 15, 2023, 12:00 PM, Michael Oujesky 
 wrote:

It appears it is well past time to remove Bill from IBM-MAIN.



At 02:26 PM 9/14/2023, Bill Johnson wrote:

>It's already passed yours.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Thursday, September 14, 2023, 3:22 PM, David Spiegel
><0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
>Yours included?
>
>On 2023-09-14 13:29, Bill Johnson wrote:
> > AI will surpass human intelligence.
> >
> >
> https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/14/softbanks-masayoshi-son-says-tech-can-surpass-human-intelligence.html
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

[Bill Johnson]

So no problem with his attack on me, but I retaliate and it’s banning time. 
This is a white frat boy cult site. Nobody dares challenge the hierarchy.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, September 15, 2023, 12:00 PM, Michael Oujesky 
 wrote:

It appears it is well past time to remove Bill from IBM-MAIN.



At 02:26 PM 9/14/2023, Bill Johnson wrote:

>It's already passed yours.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Thursday, September 14, 2023, 3:22 PM, David Spiegel 
><0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
>Yours included?
>
>On 2023-09-14 13:29, Bill Johnson wrote:
> > AI will surpass human intelligence.
> >
> > 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/14/softbanks-masayoshi-son-says-tech-can-surpass-human-intelligence.html
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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Re: Free SMPE product to just practice

[Bill Johnson]

Best bet is to ask the IBM expert who is the SMP/E manager. Kurt Quackenbush. 


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On Thursday, September 14, 2023, 3:36 PM, Jake Anderson 
 wrote:

Hello

Good morning

Is there any freeware product which can be installed using SMP/e.

Any pointers are appreciated

Jake

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Re: AI plus cybersecurity!

[Bill Johnson]

Even COBOL is better than Assembler.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that the job outlook for computer 
programmers is declining, but COBOL programmers are still in demand by 
companies that use COBOL for their daily operations, such as government 
agencies, banks, and other business organizations.


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On Thursday, September 14, 2023, 6:49 PM, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Along with AI, another growing field is IT security. MGM & Caesars got hacked, 
using LinkedIn, and you guys wonder why I’m not on it. Going to cost them 10’s 
of millions.

"All ALPHV ransomware group did to compromise MGM Resorts was hop on LinkedIn, 
find an employee, then call the Help Desk. A company valued at $33,900,000,000 
was defeated by a 10-minute conversation," VX-Underground said.

https://abcnews.go.com/Business/mgm-reeling-cyber-chaos-5-days-after-attack/story?id=103148809



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AI plus cybersecurity!

[Bill Johnson]

Along with AI, another growing field is IT security. MGM & Caesars got hacked, 
using LinkedIn, and you guys wonder why I’m not on it. Going to cost them 10’s 
of millions.

"All ALPHV ransomware group did to compromise MGM Resorts was hop on LinkedIn, 
find an employee, then call the Help Desk. A company valued at $33,900,000,000 
was defeated by a 10-minute conversation," VX-Underground said.

https://abcnews.go.com/Business/mgm-reeling-cyber-chaos-5-days-after-attack/story?id=103148809



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Re: IBM now advertising their AI.

[Bill Johnson]

 
https://www.ibm.com/products/watsonx-assistant?utm_content=WAIWW=PSocial=370062134=183231631=CKP9g7P_qoEDFcFgwQod6B4I8A




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IBM now advertising their AI.

[Bill Johnson]

IBM watsonx Assistant Virtual Agent

| 
| 
| 
|  |  |

 |

 |
| 
|  | 
IBM watsonx Assistant Virtual Agent

IBM watsonx Assistant provides customers with fast, consistent and accurate 
answers across any application, devi...
 |

 |

 |








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Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

[Bill Johnson]

Anyone who would choose assembler over AI is a complete fool. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, September 14, 2023, 3:26 PM, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

It’s already passed yours.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, September 14, 2023, 3:22 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Yours included?

On 2023-09-14 13:29, Bill Johnson wrote:
> AI will surpass human intelligence.
>
> https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/14/softbanks-masayoshi-son-says-tech-can-surpass-human-intelligence.html
>
>
>
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Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!

[Bill Johnson]

It’s already passed yours.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, September 14, 2023, 3:22 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Yours included?

On 2023-09-14 13:29, Bill Johnson wrote:
> AI will surpass human intelligence.
>
> https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/14/softbanks-masayoshi-son-says-tech-can-surpass-human-intelligence.html
>
>
>
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AI will surpass human intelligence!

[Bill Johnson]

AI will surpass human intelligence.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/14/softbanks-masayoshi-son-says-tech-can-surpass-human-intelligence.html



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Re: Assembler, was: AI expert hot new position

[Bill Johnson]

While the term AI was coined in 1956, real AI has just begun. Read the Harvard 
history of AI. Especially the segment called “The Future”.

https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2017/history-artificial-intelligence/




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On Thursday, September 14, 2023, 7:12 AM, Bernd Oppolzer 
 wrote:

The field of AI research was founded at a workshop 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dartmouth_workshop> at Dartmouth College 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dartmouth_College> in 1956.^[r] 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence#cite_note-222> 
^[2] 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence#cite_note-Dartmouth_workshop-2>
 
The attendees became the leaders of AI research in the 1960s.^[s] 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence#cite_note-224> 
They and their students produced programs that the press described as 
"astonishing":^[t] 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence#cite_note-226> 
computers were learning checkers 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draughts> strategies, solving word 
problems in algebra, proving logical theorems 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theorem> and speaking English.^[u] 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence#cite_note-227> 
^[3] 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence#cite_note-AI_in_the_60s-3>
 


By the middle of the 1960s, research in the U.S. was heavily funded by 
the Department of Defense <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA>^[207] 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence#cite_note-228> 
and laboratories had been established around the world.^[208] 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence#cite_note-FOOTNOTEHowe1994-229>
 
Herbert Simon <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_A._Simon> 
predicted, "machines will be capable, within twenty years, of doing any 
work a man can do".^[209] 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence#cite_note-230> 
Marvin Minsky <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Minsky> agreed, 
writing, "within a generation ... the problem of creating 'artificial 
intelligence' will substantially be solved".^[210] 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence#cite_note-231>


^

Am 14.09.2023 um 01:37 schrieb Bill Johnson:
> AI, real AI, isn’t even a year old. I’m betting the next 3-5 decades will see 
> it become the most powerful advancement in IT history.
>
> https://www.3dbear.io/blog/the-impact-of-ai-how-artificial-intelligence-is-transforming-society
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>

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Re: Assembler, was: AI expert hot new position

[Bill Johnson]

Prove it.


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On Wednesday, September 13, 2023, 10:54 PM, David Crayford 
 wrote:



> On 14 Sep 2023, at 10:39 am, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> Ray’s words. Cut and pasted from his response to a question about the 
> direction of assembler programming. 
> 
> “I'll be honest - it's getting smaller and smaller. It's become a niche, 
> mainly for system tools ISVs. Metal C is where the invisible hand of IBM is 
> pushing the industry.”
> 

Maybe Ray chip in? I think he was referring to new applications. The fact is 
that a huge amount of products that run the mainframe are written in assembler. 

> 
> There is nothing to indicate assembler programming is growing and in fact it 
> is shrinking by approximately 5% a year.
> 
> AI is going to grow exponentially. For decades.
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, September 13, 2023, 9:59 PM, David Crayford 
>  wrote:
> 
>> On 14 Sep 2023, at 9:37 am, Bill Johnson 
>> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> Potential positions? Either you have positions or you don’t. Or, you have 
>> positions and no applicants. Which once again proves my point.
> 
> Check our website which has all open positions. 
> 
>> Don’t waste your time learning a dying skill. As stated by Assembler expert 
>> Ray Mullins. 
>> 
> 
> I worked for the same company as Ray. Great guy, total respect. I’m sure if 
> you asked him he would acknowledge that the huge amount of assembler code in 
> mission critical products needs to be supported for decades. 
> 
>> 
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> On Wednesday, September 13, 2023, 9:00 PM, David Crayford 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> We’ve got loads of potential positions for good HLASM programmers. Send me 
>> your resume if you’re interested. 
>> 
>>> On 14 Sep 2023, at 4:23 am, Dean Kent  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I didn't want to get into the firefight... however, the commentary here 
>>> encouraged me to do so.
>>> 
>>> My own belief (whether founded or not) is that if you follow your passion 
>>> and become good at it, someone will recognize that and feel it is valuable 
>>> enough to pay for it.  I also believe that specialists tend to demand a 
>>> higher rate than generalists. Assembler is a specialty, and while there may 
>>> not be a lot of demand, the ones who do require it will pay.
>>> 
>>> I compare it to, for example, I have some classic vehicles with 
>>> carburetors.  Not too many mechanics work on carburetors any more - but 
>>> those who do have a lot of work.  Fine craftsmen may not be in huge demand 
>>> due to the 'production line' manufacturing of most furniture - but those 
>>> who do it make good money and have plenty of work.    People who specialize 
>>> in repairing antique clocks, pottery, rugs, etc. may not be able to get a 
>>> job anywhere - but if they are good at it, they have plenty of business.
>>> 
>>> As long as the mainframe runs legacy code, there will be a need for 
>>> assembler programmers.  That's my opinion, at least.
>>> 
>>> On 9/13/2023 8:52 AM, Bob Bridges wrote:
>>>> I've long observed that no matter what your employer hired you for, what 
>>>> you turn out to be good at is what they use you for.  At one location I 
>>>> was the only one who bothered to figure out what was wrong with the big 
>>>> greenbar printer when it went haywire; before I left, therefore, I was the 
>>>> one folks came to when it misbehaved, and I was the one ordering supplies 
>>>> for it.  At another place my boss remarked, during an annual review, that 
>>>> "we gotta get you on some of these team projects; we keep using you as the 
>>>> lone fire-fighter for odd problems, but team projects will look good an 
>>>> your resume".  I nodded enthusiastically and agreed aloud, but the fact is 
>>>> I ~liked~ being the guy in the corner who did the odd jobs, figuring out 
>>>> the software that no one else had time for.
>>>> 
>>>> I always recommend to young folks that they keep on doing what they're 
>>>> interested in doing.  Obviously this doesn't mean neglecting assigned 
>>>> tasks that sound boring; if I don't do what my boss wants me to do then 
>>>> I'm useless to him.  But eventually he'll discover that he wants me to do 
>>>> some of the things I'm especially good at too.
>&

Re: Assembler, was: AI expert hot new position

[Bill Johnson]

Ray’s words. Cut and pasted from his response to a question about the direction 
of assembler programming. 

“I'll be honest - it's getting smaller and smaller. It's become a niche, mainly 
for system tools ISVs. Metal C is where the invisible hand of IBM is pushing 
the industry.”


There is nothing to indicate assembler programming is growing and in fact it is 
shrinking by approximately 5% a year.

AI is going to grow exponentially. For decades.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, September 13, 2023, 9:59 PM, David Crayford  
wrote:

> On 14 Sep 2023, at 9:37 am, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> Potential positions? Either you have positions or you don’t. Or, you have 
> positions and no applicants. Which once again proves my point.

Check our website which has all open positions. 

> Don’t waste your time learning a dying skill. As stated by Assembler expert 
> Ray Mullins. 
> 

I worked for the same company as Ray. Great guy, total respect. I’m sure if you 
asked him he would acknowledge that the huge amount of assembler code in 
mission critical products needs to be supported for decades. 

> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, September 13, 2023, 9:00 PM, David Crayford 
>  wrote:
> 
> We’ve got loads of potential positions for good HLASM programmers. Send me 
> your resume if you’re interested. 
> 
>> On 14 Sep 2023, at 4:23 am, Dean Kent  wrote:
>> 
>> I didn't want to get into the firefight... however, the commentary here 
>> encouraged me to do so.
>> 
>> My own belief (whether founded or not) is that if you follow your passion 
>> and become good at it, someone will recognize that and feel it is valuable 
>> enough to pay for it.  I also believe that specialists tend to demand a 
>> higher rate than generalists. Assembler is a specialty, and while there may 
>> not be a lot of demand, the ones who do require it will pay.
>> 
>> I compare it to, for example, I have some classic vehicles with carburetors. 
>>  Not too many mechanics work on carburetors any more - but those who do have 
>> a lot of work.  Fine craftsmen may not be in huge demand due to the 
>> 'production line' manufacturing of most furniture - but those who do it make 
>> good money and have plenty of work.    People who specialize in repairing 
>> antique clocks, pottery, rugs, etc. may not be able to get a job anywhere - 
>> but if they are good at it, they have plenty of business.
>> 
>> As long as the mainframe runs legacy code, there will be a need for 
>> assembler programmers.  That's my opinion, at least.
>> 
>> On 9/13/2023 8:52 AM, Bob Bridges wrote:
>>> I've long observed that no matter what your employer hired you for, what 
>>> you turn out to be good at is what they use you for.  At one location I was 
>>> the only one who bothered to figure out what was wrong with the big 
>>> greenbar printer when it went haywire; before I left, therefore, I was the 
>>> one folks came to when it misbehaved, and I was the one ordering supplies 
>>> for it.  At another place my boss remarked, during an annual review, that 
>>> "we gotta get you on some of these team projects; we keep using you as the 
>>> lone fire-fighter for odd problems, but team projects will look good an 
>>> your resume".  I nodded enthusiastically and agreed aloud, but the fact is 
>>> I ~liked~ being the guy in the corner who did the odd jobs, figuring out 
>>> the software that no one else had time for.
>>> 
>>> I always recommend to young folks that they keep on doing what they're 
>>> interested in doing.  Obviously this doesn't mean neglecting assigned tasks 
>>> that sound boring; if I don't do what my boss wants me to do then I'm 
>>> useless to him.  But eventually he'll discover that he wants me to do some 
>>> of the things I'm especially good at too.
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>>> 
>>> /* The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a 
>>> little way past them into the impossible.  -[Arthur C] Clarke's 2nd law. */
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>>> Arthur Fichtl
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2023 04:18
>>> 
>>> As a now retired freelance z/OS guy  based in Munich/Germany I had to find 
>>> a market niche at my employer. Therefore I specialized on debugging, 
>>> analysis of dumps and the like. For those tasks HLAS

Re: Assembler, was: AI expert hot new position

[Bill Johnson]

Potential positions? Either you have positions or you don’t. Or, you have 
positions and no applicants. Which once again proves my point. Don’t waste your 
time learning a dying skill. As stated by Assembler expert Ray Mullins. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, September 13, 2023, 9:00 PM, David Crayford  
wrote:

We’ve got loads of potential positions for good HLASM programmers. Send me your 
resume if you’re interested. 

> On 14 Sep 2023, at 4:23 am, Dean Kent  wrote:
> 
> I didn't want to get into the firefight... however, the commentary here 
> encouraged me to do so.
> 
> My own belief (whether founded or not) is that if you follow your passion and 
> become good at it, someone will recognize that and feel it is valuable enough 
> to pay for it.  I also believe that specialists tend to demand a higher rate 
> than generalists. Assembler is a specialty, and while there may not be a lot 
> of demand, the ones who do require it will pay.
> 
> I compare it to, for example, I have some classic vehicles with carburetors.  
> Not too many mechanics work on carburetors any more - but those who do have a 
> lot of work.  Fine craftsmen may not be in huge demand due to the 'production 
> line' manufacturing of most furniture - but those who do it make good money 
> and have plenty of work.    People who specialize in repairing antique 
> clocks, pottery, rugs, etc. may not be able to get a job anywhere - but if 
> they are good at it, they have plenty of business.
> 
> As long as the mainframe runs legacy code, there will be a need for assembler 
> programmers.  That's my opinion, at least.
> 
> On 9/13/2023 8:52 AM, Bob Bridges wrote:
>> I've long observed that no matter what your employer hired you for, what you 
>> turn out to be good at is what they use you for.  At one location I was the 
>> only one who bothered to figure out what was wrong with the big greenbar 
>> printer when it went haywire; before I left, therefore, I was the one folks 
>> came to when it misbehaved, and I was the one ordering supplies for it.  At 
>> another place my boss remarked, during an annual review, that "we gotta get 
>> you on some of these team projects; we keep using you as the lone 
>> fire-fighter for odd problems, but team projects will look good an your 
>> resume".  I nodded enthusiastically and agreed aloud, but the fact is I 
>> ~liked~ being the guy in the corner who did the odd jobs, figuring out the 
>> software that no one else had time for.
>> 
>> I always recommend to young folks that they keep on doing what they're 
>> interested in doing.  Obviously this doesn't mean neglecting assigned tasks 
>> that sound boring; if I don't do what my boss wants me to do then I'm 
>> useless to him.  But eventually he'll discover that he wants me to do some 
>> of the things I'm especially good at too.
>> 
>> ---
>> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>> 
>> /* The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a 
>> little way past them into the impossible.  -[Arthur C] Clarke's 2nd law. */
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>> Arthur Fichtl
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2023 04:18
>> 
>> As a now retired freelance z/OS guy  based in Munich/Germany I had to find a 
>> market niche at my employer. Therefore I specialized on debugging, analysis 
>> of dumps and the like. For those tasks HLASM was inevitable.
>> 
>> My colleagues preferred more comfortable tasks and languages and therefore I 
>> for myself had a quite secure job.
>> 
>> And I liked it. My 1st language was the Siemens 4004 Assembler with punch 
>> cards as the user interface. Quite funny.
>> 
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Re: Assembler, was: AI expert hot new position

[Bill Johnson]

AI, real AI, isn’t even a year old. I’m betting the next 3-5 decades will see 
it become the most powerful advancement in IT history.

https://www.3dbear.io/blog/the-impact-of-ai-how-artificial-intelligence-is-transforming-society




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, September 13, 2023, 7:20 PM, Seymour J Metz  
wrote:

Just how many decades are there in an inning?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2023 6:38 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler, was: AI expert hot new position

It’s barely the first inning of AI. Demand for AI specialists is going to grow 
exponentially. Companies are spending trillions to implement over the next 
decade.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/06/23/the-ai-spending-boom-is-spreading-far-beyond-big-tech-companies.html




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, September 13, 2023, 5:37 PM, Bob Bridges  
wrote:

Predictions are risky, but I'm going to expose myself just for fun:  My bet is 
that these salaries represent a bubble that won't last long.  AI is the latest 
cool thing, right?  These are correspondingly cool numbers, but I'm thinking 
the bubble will burst.

Soon?  I dunno.  What's "soon"?  More than a year, probably.  Maybe four or 
five years?

But predictions, especially my predictions, are worth exactly what you're 
paying for them.  See the collection of taglines:

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* By 2005 or so, it will be clear that the Internet's impact on the economy 
has been no greater than the fax machine's.  -Paul Krugman, Nobel-prize-winning 
economist in 1998 */
/* Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons. -Popular Mechanics, 
forecasting in 1949 the relentless march of science */
/* The most important fundamental laws and facts of physical science have all 
been discovered, and these are now so firmly established that the possibility 
of their ever being supplemented in consequence of new discoveries is 
exceedingly remote.  -Abraham Albert Michelson in 1903 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2023 17:07

AI Specialist Salary
Last Updated on: August 14, 2023
The average AI specialist salary in the United States is $165,980 per year, or 
$79.80 per hour. Their monthly salary starts at $6,907 and goes up to $20,494 
per month, or about $245,931 per year.

The top-paying states for artificial intelligence specialists are California at 
$246,143 per year, Oregon at $201,305, and Washington at $193,768. The 
lowest-paying area is Georgia, with an average salary of $90,068 a year.

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Re: Assembler, was: AI expert hot new position

[Bill Johnson]

I’m not conflating anything. You don’t understand markets.

Let’s use carburetor mechanics. These numbers are only used as an example.

In 1970, there was very likely 100,000 mechanics who could work on carburetors. 
Because nearly every car had one.

In 2023, I’d bet it’s maybe 1000. Because very few cars have a carburetor. 
Those 1000 probably are doing ok financially. But, it leaves 99,000 either 
unemployed or retrained to work on something else. In 10 years, there will be 
even fewer cars with carburetors on the road. So, 500 carburetor specialists 
will be looking for a new skill/job. And so forth until the carburetor 
specialist job becomes nonexistent.

Assembler is going the same route. The ones still doing it will do ok, but the 
numbers will (and are) in decline. Eventually going to zero.

I’d venture to opine that AI is going to eliminate plenty of the current 
occupations in IT. And faster than many think.


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On Wednesday, September 13, 2023, 5:30 PM, Bob Bridges  
wrote:

Bill, it sounds to me like you're conflating two things, ie how many assembler 
programmers are needed with how much such a programmer can make.  You've been 
saying the market for assembler programmers is doomed to decline (and I have no 
opinion to offer on that), and you conclude that therefore a specialist will 
make more money only until the skillset involved begins to decline.  Dean, on 
the other hand, is saying that the few specialists who keep providing a service 
that's falling into disuse are going to go on working and making ~more~ money, 
and I think he's right.  So does the DICE article you quoted.

The reason is that when no one wants that skill any more, the fact is that a 
few people still want it and have a hard time finding it.  I'm thinking not 
only of my own experiences but also, here, an article I read recently about the 
last company in the world that deals with 3½" diskettes.  It's a dead market, 
right?  But only almost - and the one company that sells them, and provides 
other services, is up to the eyeballs in urgent requests for help from people 
who really need it and can't find it anywhere else.  So being skilled in 
providing a service that is getting harder and harder to find (and it's getting 
harder to find precisely ~because~ fewer employers want it) is a pretty 
enviable position to be in.

This accords with the advice offered by Richard Bolles, the writer of the 
annual publication "What Color is Your Parachute?", which many of us remember 
with reverence.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Following the path of least resistance is what makes rivers and men crooked. 
*/

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2023 16:47

A generalist will rarely be unemployed. A specialist will usually make more 
money but only until the skillset involved begins to decline or is phased out. 
Assembler programming has been in decline for decades.

-- From Dice.com September 2022.
There’s a pervasive myth that being able to program in assembly language makes 
you a master programmer with deity-level skills. Yet novice programmers can 
also pick up the nuances of assembly language—provided they invest the time and 
effort.

Today, assembly language finds its greatest use in compiler development and 
low-level engineering, with some finance applications. Some companies 
definitely need the talent. According to Lightcast (formerly Emsi Burning 
Glass), which collects and analyses millions of job postings from across the 
country, there were 5,088 open job postings over the past 12 months that 
mentioned assembly language; however, the platform estimates job growth for the 
language at -10.8 percent over the next two years.

That’s a steep decline.

Those skilled in assembly language can expect relatively high salaries, at 
least: Lightcast pegs the median salary for jobs requiring assembly language at 
$93,022, which can drift higher with the right mix of skills and experience. 
Jobs requesting assembly language knowledge include software 
developer/engineer, training and development specialist, embedded software 
engineer, and firmware engineer.

--- On Wednesday, September 13, 2023, 4:27 PM, Dean Kent  
wrote:
My own belief (whether founded or not) is that if you follow your passion and 
become good at it, someone will recognize that and feel it is valuable enough 
to pay for it.  I also believe that specialists tend to demand a higher rate 
than generalists. Assembler is a specialty, and while there may not be a lot of 
demand, the ones who do require it will pay.

I compare it to, for example, I have some classic vehicles with carburetors.  
Not too many mechanics work on carburetors any more - but those who do have a 
lot of work.  Fine craftsmen may not be in huge demand due to the 'production 
line' manufacturing of most furniture - but those

Re: Assembler, was: AI expert hot new position

[Bill Johnson]

It’s barely the first inning of AI. Demand for AI specialists is going to grow 
exponentially. Companies are spending trillions to implement over the next 
decade.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/06/23/the-ai-spending-boom-is-spreading-far-beyond-big-tech-companies.html




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, September 13, 2023, 5:37 PM, Bob Bridges  
wrote:

Predictions are risky, but I'm going to expose myself just for fun:  My bet is 
that these salaries represent a bubble that won't last long.  AI is the latest 
cool thing, right?  These are correspondingly cool numbers, but I'm thinking 
the bubble will burst.

Soon?  I dunno.  What's "soon"?  More than a year, probably.  Maybe four or 
five years?

But predictions, especially my predictions, are worth exactly what you're 
paying for them.  See the collection of taglines:

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* By 2005 or so, it will be clear that the Internet's impact on the economy 
has been no greater than the fax machine's.  -Paul Krugman, Nobel-prize-winning 
economist in 1998 */
/* Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons. -Popular Mechanics, 
forecasting in 1949 the relentless march of science */
/* The most important fundamental laws and facts of physical science have all 
been discovered, and these are now so firmly established that the possibility 
of their ever being supplemented in consequence of new discoveries is 
exceedingly remote.  -Abraham Albert Michelson in 1903 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2023 17:07

AI Specialist Salary
Last Updated on: August 14, 2023
The average AI specialist salary in the United States is $165,980 per year, or 
$79.80 per hour. Their monthly salary starts at $6,907 and goes up to $20,494 
per month, or about $245,931 per year.

The top-paying states for artificial intelligence specialists are California at 
$246,143 per year, Oregon at $201,305, and Washington at $193,768. The 
lowest-paying area is Georgia, with an average salary of $90,068 a year.

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Re: Assembler, was: AI expert hot new position

[Bill Johnson]

AI Specialist Salary
Last Updated on: August 14, 2023
The average AI specialist salary in the United States is $165,980 per year, or 
$79.80 per hour. Their monthly salary starts at $6,907 and goes up to $20,494 
per month, or about $245,931 per year.

The top-paying states for artificial intelligence specialists are California at 
$246,143 per year, Oregon at $201,305, and Washington at $193,768. The 
lowest-paying area is Georgia, with an average salary of $90,068 a year.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, September 13, 2023, 4:47 PM, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

A generalist will rarely be unemployed. A specialist will usually make more 
money but only until the skillset involved begins to decline or is phased out. 
Assembler programming has been in decline for decades.

>From Dice.com September 2022.

There’s a pervasive myth that being able to program in assembly language makes 
you a master programmer with deity-level skills. Yet novice programmers can 
also pick up the nuances of assembly language—provided they invest the time and 
effort.

Today, assembly language finds its greatest use in compiler development and 
low-level engineering, with some finance applications. Some companies 
definitely need the talent. According to Lightcast (formerly Emsi Burning 
Glass), which collects and analyses millions of job postings from across the 
country, there were 5,088 open job postings over the past 12 months that 
mentioned assembly language; however, the platform estimates job growth for the 
language at -10.8 percent over the next two years.

That’s a steep decline.

Those skilled in assembly language can expect relatively high salaries, at 
least: Lightcast pegs the median salary for jobs requiring assembly language at 
$93,022, which can drift higher with the right mix of skills and experience. 
Jobs requesting assembly language knowledge include software 
developer/engineer, training and development specialist, embedded software 
engineer, and firmware engineer.

As a generalist, I made more than 93k in an area where the cost of living was 
way below the national average.

Specializing in AI will be far more lucrative than Assembler.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, September 13, 2023, 4:27 PM, Dean Kent  wrote:

I didn't want to get into the firefight... however, the commentary here 
encouraged me to do so.

My own belief (whether founded or not) is that if you follow your 
passion and become good at it, someone will recognize that and feel it 
is valuable enough to pay for it.   I also believe that specialists tend 
to demand a higher rate than generalists. Assembler is a specialty, and 
while there may not be a lot of demand, the ones who do require it will pay.

I compare it to, for example, I have some classic vehicles with 
carburetors.   Not too many mechanics work on carburetors any more - but 
those who do have a lot of work.   Fine craftsmen may not be in huge 
demand due to the 'production line' manufacturing of most furniture - 
but those who do it make good money and have plenty of work.    People 
who specialize in repairing antique clocks, pottery, rugs, etc. may not 
be able to get a job anywhere - but if they are good at it, they have 
plenty of business.

As long as the mainframe runs legacy code, there will be a need for 
assembler programmers.   That's my opinion, at least.

On 9/13/2023 8:52 AM, Bob Bridges wrote:
> I've long observed that no matter what your employer hired you for, what you 
> turn out to be good at is what they use you for.  At one location I was the 
> only one who bothered to figure out what was wrong with the big greenbar 
> printer when it went haywire; before I left, therefore, I was the one folks 
> came to when it misbehaved, and I was the one ordering supplies for it.  At 
> another place my boss remarked, during an annual review, that "we gotta get 
> you on some of these team projects; we keep using you as the lone 
> fire-fighter for odd problems, but team projects will look good an your 
> resume".  I nodded enthusiastically and agreed aloud, but the fact is I 
> ~liked~ being the guy in the corner who did the odd jobs, figuring out the 
> software that no one else had time for.
>
> I always recommend to young folks that they keep on doing what they're 
> interested in doing.  Obviously this doesn't mean neglecting assigned tasks 
> that sound boring; if I don't do what my boss wants me to do then I'm useless 
> to him.  But eventually he'll discover that he wants me to do some of the 
> things I'm especially good at too.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a 
> little way past them into the impossible.  -[Arthur C] Clarke's 2nd law. */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: I

Re: Assembler, was: AI expert hot new position

[Bill Johnson]

A generalist will rarely be unemployed. A specialist will usually make more 
money but only until the skillset involved begins to decline or is phased out. 
Assembler programming has been in decline for decades.

>From Dice.com September 2022.

There’s a pervasive myth that being able to program in assembly language makes 
you a master programmer with deity-level skills. Yet novice programmers can 
also pick up the nuances of assembly language—provided they invest the time and 
effort.

Today, assembly language finds its greatest use in compiler development and 
low-level engineering, with some finance applications. Some companies 
definitely need the talent. According to Lightcast (formerly Emsi Burning 
Glass), which collects and analyses millions of job postings from across the 
country, there were 5,088 open job postings over the past 12 months that 
mentioned assembly language; however, the platform estimates job growth for the 
language at -10.8 percent over the next two years.

That’s a steep decline.

Those skilled in assembly language can expect relatively high salaries, at 
least: Lightcast pegs the median salary for jobs requiring assembly language at 
$93,022, which can drift higher with the right mix of skills and experience. 
Jobs requesting assembly language knowledge include software 
developer/engineer, training and development specialist, embedded software 
engineer, and firmware engineer.

As a generalist, I made more than 93k in an area where the cost of living was 
way below the national average.

Specializing in AI will be far more lucrative than Assembler.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, September 13, 2023, 4:27 PM, Dean Kent  wrote:

I didn't want to get into the firefight... however, the commentary here 
encouraged me to do so.

My own belief (whether founded or not) is that if you follow your 
passion and become good at it, someone will recognize that and feel it 
is valuable enough to pay for it.   I also believe that specialists tend 
to demand a higher rate than generalists. Assembler is a specialty, and 
while there may not be a lot of demand, the ones who do require it will pay.

I compare it to, for example, I have some classic vehicles with 
carburetors.   Not too many mechanics work on carburetors any more - but 
those who do have a lot of work.   Fine craftsmen may not be in huge 
demand due to the 'production line' manufacturing of most furniture - 
but those who do it make good money and have plenty of work.    People 
who specialize in repairing antique clocks, pottery, rugs, etc. may not 
be able to get a job anywhere - but if they are good at it, they have 
plenty of business.

As long as the mainframe runs legacy code, there will be a need for 
assembler programmers.   That's my opinion, at least.

On 9/13/2023 8:52 AM, Bob Bridges wrote:
> I've long observed that no matter what your employer hired you for, what you 
> turn out to be good at is what they use you for.  At one location I was the 
> only one who bothered to figure out what was wrong with the big greenbar 
> printer when it went haywire; before I left, therefore, I was the one folks 
> came to when it misbehaved, and I was the one ordering supplies for it.  At 
> another place my boss remarked, during an annual review, that "we gotta get 
> you on some of these team projects; we keep using you as the lone 
> fire-fighter for odd problems, but team projects will look good an your 
> resume".  I nodded enthusiastically and agreed aloud, but the fact is I 
> ~liked~ being the guy in the corner who did the odd jobs, figuring out the 
> software that no one else had time for.
>
> I always recommend to young folks that they keep on doing what they're 
> interested in doing.  Obviously this doesn't mean neglecting assigned tasks 
> that sound boring; if I don't do what my boss wants me to do then I'm useless 
> to him.  But eventually he'll discover that he wants me to do some of the 
> things I'm especially good at too.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a 
> little way past them into the impossible.  -[Arthur C] Clarke's 2nd law. */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Arthur Fichtl
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2023 04:18
>
> As a now retired freelance z/OS guy  based in Munich/Germany I had to find a 
> market niche at my employer. Therefore I specialized on debugging, analysis 
> of dumps and the like. For those tasks HLASM was inevitable.
>
> My colleagues preferred more comfortable tasks and languages and therefore I 
> for myself had a quite secure job.
>
> And I liked it. My 1st language was the Siemens 4004 Assembler with punch 
> cards as the user interface. Quite funny.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to 

Re: AI expert hot new position.

[Bill Johnson]

Mostly perm. My contractor days were as a programmer analyst writing some huge 
QMF queries and Y2K code repair. 2 years total. Late 90’s.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 12, 2023, 1:11 PM, Steve Beaver 
<050e0c375a14-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Is this contract or perm?

Sent from my iPhone

No one said I could type with one thumb 

> On Sep 12, 2023, at 11:15, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> I’ve done upgrades. Numerous times. Of z/OS, DB2, CICS, IMS, MQ, TSS, and a 
> boatload of third party software.
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Tuesday, September 12, 2023, 9:11 AM, David Spiegel 
> <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> Hi Bill,
> Never happen?
> If you were a systems programmer and were doing a z/OS upgrade, you 
> would probably have to repair some SMF, JES2 and Security Exits a lot 
> more than "almost never".
> 
> Regards,
> David
> 
>> On 2023-09-12 08:56, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> Making up scenarios that never or almost never happen.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> On Tuesday, September 12, 2023, 8:53 AM, David Spiegel 
>> <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Jon,
>> Now that you've mentioned DB2, please tell me how to write/maintain a
>> DB2 Secondary Authorization Exit WITHOUT Assembler.
>> Next time my customer asks me to amend it, I will be sure to give them
>> your answer. (I added logic to it to allow Informatica to authenticate
>> via ACF2.)
>> 
>> Regards,.
>> David
>> 
>>> On 2023-09-12 08:04, Jon Butler wrote:
>>> There will be a need for assembler programmers for quite a while, but 
>>> mainly because over the last forty years, and long after even COBOL II 
>>> added functions and a case construction in 1987, very, very  clever people 
>>> decided they would write application modules in assembler... and not waste 
>>> time with comments.  Today, when companies are trying to make their systems 
>>> Highly Available...or even convert to a cloud provider's service...no one 
>>> has a clue what the modules do.  Many could have been easily replaced by 
>>> COBOL's ADDRESS OF or LENGTH OF or PL/I Pointers, but of course that would 
>>> have been way too easy.  Very few application programs need to control 
>>> channels.
>>> 
>>> When I was interviewed by the Db2 Utilities group at the Santa Teresa lab 
>>> in San Jose (Now Silicon Valley) in 2001, I said I suppose I needed to 
>>> brush up on my assembler.  They laughed and said "no one uses assembler any 
>>> more."  All the Utilities were written in PL/S, now PL/X.
>>> 
>>> Not to denigrate assembler programmers, or those that decide to take up 
>>> Sanskrit, but it is a dying art.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>> --
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: AI expert hot new position.

[Bill Johnson]

I’ve done upgrades. Numerous times. Of z/OS, DB2, CICS, IMS, MQ, TSS, and a 
boatload of third party software.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 12, 2023, 9:11 AM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
Never happen?
If you were a systems programmer and were doing a z/OS upgrade, you 
would probably have to repair some SMF, JES2 and Security Exits a lot 
more than "almost never".

Regards,
David

On 2023-09-12 08:56, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Making up scenarios that never or almost never happen.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Tuesday, September 12, 2023, 8:53 AM, David Spiegel 
> <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi Jon,
> Now that you've mentioned DB2, please tell me how to write/maintain a
> DB2 Secondary Authorization Exit WITHOUT Assembler.
> Next time my customer asks me to amend it, I will be sure to give them
> your answer. (I added logic to it to allow Informatica to authenticate
> via ACF2.)
>
> Regards,.
> David
>
> On 2023-09-12 08:04, Jon Butler wrote:
>> There will be a need for assembler programmers for quite a while, but mainly 
>> because over the last forty years, and long after even COBOL II added 
>> functions and a case construction in 1987, very, very  clever people decided 
>> they would write application modules in assembler... and not waste time with 
>> comments.  Today, when companies are trying to make their systems Highly 
>> Available...or even convert to a cloud provider's service...no one has a 
>> clue what the modules do.  Many could have been easily replaced by COBOL's 
>> ADDRESS OF or LENGTH OF or PL/I Pointers, but of course that would have been 
>> way too easy.  Very few application programs need to control channels.
>>
>> When I was interviewed by the Db2 Utilities group at the Santa Teresa lab in 
>> San Jose (Now Silicon Valley) in 2001, I said I suppose I needed to brush up 
>> on my assembler.  They laughed and said "no one uses assembler any more."  
>> All the Utilities were written in PL/S, now PL/X.
>>
>> Not to denigrate assembler programmers, or those that decide to take up 
>> Sanskrit, but it is a dying art.
>>
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
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>
>
>
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Re: AI expert hot new position.

[Bill Johnson]

David so badly wants his dying art to be important because it makes him feel 
superior. Textbook narcissist.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 12, 2023, 8:58 AM, David Crayford  
wrote:

> On 12 Sep 2023, at 8:04 pm, Jon Butler  wrote:
> 
> There will be a need for assembler programmers for quite a while,

YEAH! z/OS syscalls are assembler macros! No HLASM no z/OS. The sheer volume of 
assembler code is an existential threat to the platform as young guys don’t 
want to spend 10 years onboarding. 

> but mainly because over the last forty years, and long after even COBOL II 
> added functions and a case construction in 1987, very, very  clever people 
> decided they would write application modules in assembler... and not waste 
> time with comments.  Today, when companies are trying to make their systems 
> Highly Available...or even convert to a cloud provider's service...no one has 
> a clue what the modules do.  Many could have been easily replaced by COBOL's 
> ADDRESS OF or LENGTH OF or PL/I Pointers, but of course that would have been 
> way too easy.  Very few application programs need to control channels.
> 
> When I was interviewed by the Db2 Utilities group at the Santa Teresa lab in 
> San Jose (Now Silicon Valley) in 2001, I said I suppose I needed to brush up 
> on my assembler.  They laughed and said "no one uses assembler any more."  
> All the Utilities were written in PL/S, now PL/X.

DB2 Utilities got sold a vendor and the devs moved with it. I heard an amusing 
story that IBM were hell bent on migrating to OO PL/X which was so buggy the 
CICS team in Hursley referred to it as “oh oh PL/X”. It was in the 90’s when 
everybody thought inheritance was a good idea but it introduced “is-a hell” and 
the path length of the code exploded. It was so bad that DB2 utilities were 
close to missing their targets and abandoned it. It was a huge blunder. A lot 
of new code in DB2 Utilities is done Metal/C/ 

> 
> Not to denigrate assembler programmers, or those that decide to take up 
> Sanskrit, but it is a dying art.

Yep. For new code avoid it like the plague. But the legacy needs to be 
maintained. 

> 
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Re: AI expert hot new position.

[Bill Johnson]

Making up scenarios that never or almost never happen. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 12, 2023, 8:53 AM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Jon,
Now that you've mentioned DB2, please tell me how to write/maintain a 
DB2 Secondary Authorization Exit WITHOUT Assembler.
Next time my customer asks me to amend it, I will be sure to give them 
your answer. (I added logic to it to allow Informatica to authenticate 
via ACF2.)

Regards,.
David

On 2023-09-12 08:04, Jon Butler wrote:
> There will be a need for assembler programmers for quite a while, but mainly 
> because over the last forty years, and long after even COBOL II added 
> functions and a case construction in 1987, very, very  clever people decided 
> they would write application modules in assembler... and not waste time with 
> comments.  Today, when companies are trying to make their systems Highly 
> Available...or even convert to a cloud provider's service...no one has a clue 
> what the modules do.  Many could have been easily replaced by COBOL's ADDRESS 
> OF or LENGTH OF or PL/I Pointers, but of course that would have been way too 
> easy.  Very few application programs need to control channels.
>
> When I was interviewed by the Db2 Utilities group at the Santa Teresa lab in 
> San Jose (Now Silicon Valley) in 2001, I said I suppose I needed to brush up 
> on my assembler.  They laughed and said "no one uses assembler any more."  
> All the Utilities were written in PL/S, now PL/X.
>
> Not to denigrate assembler programmers, or those that decide to take up 
> Sanskrit, but it is a dying art.
>
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Re: AI expert hot new position.

[Bill Johnson]

I do know assembler. College class. Used once in over 40 years. Your memory is 
weak since I know I mentioned it previously.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 12, 2023, 8:34 AM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
Nice job cherry picking.
Since you don't know Assembler, here is a fact you are (willfully) omitting.
PL/S, PL/X, PL/AS etc. has never been been made available to all IBM 
customers. (I know that select customers have successfully obtained a 
licence.)
Unless one works at IBM, there is still a need.

Regards,
David

On 2023-09-12 08:16, Bill Johnson wrote:
> “ Not to denigrate assembler programmers, or those that decide to take up 
> Sanskrit, but it is a dying art.”
>
> Indeed.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Tuesday, September 12, 2023, 8:04 AM, Jon Butler  
> wrote:
>
> There will be a need for assembler programmers for quite a while, but mainly 
> because over the last forty years, and long after even COBOL II added 
> functions and a case construction in 1987, very, very  clever people decided 
> they would write application modules in assembler... and not waste time with 
> comments.  Today, when companies are trying to make their systems Highly 
> Available...or even convert to a cloud provider's service...no one has a clue 
> what the modules do.  Many could have been easily replaced by COBOL's ADDRESS 
> OF or LENGTH OF or PL/I Pointers, but of course that would have been way too 
> easy.  Very few application programs need to control channels.
>
> When I was interviewed by the Db2 Utilities group at the Santa Teresa lab in 
> San Jose (Now Silicon Valley) in 2001, I said I suppose I needed to brush up 
> on my assembler.  They laughed and said "no one uses assembler any more."  
> All the Utilities were written in PL/S, now PL/X.
>
> Not to denigrate assembler programmers, or those that decide to take up 
> Sanskrit, but it is a dying art.
>
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>
>
>
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Re: AI expert hot new position.

[Bill Johnson]

“ Not to denigrate assembler programmers, or those that decide to take up 
Sanskrit, but it is a dying art.”

Indeed.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 12, 2023, 8:04 AM, Jon Butler  
wrote:

There will be a need for assembler programmers for quite a while, but mainly 
because over the last forty years, and long after even COBOL II added functions 
and a case construction in 1987, very, very  clever people decided they would 
write application modules in assembler... and not waste time with comments.  
Today, when companies are trying to make their systems Highly Available...or 
even convert to a cloud provider's service...no one has a clue what the modules 
do.  Many could have been easily replaced by COBOL's ADDRESS OF or LENGTH OF or 
PL/I Pointers, but of course that would have been way too easy.  Very few 
application programs need to control channels.

When I was interviewed by the Db2 Utilities group at the Santa Teresa lab in 
San Jose (Now Silicon Valley) in 2001, I said I suppose I needed to brush up on 
my assembler.  They laughed and said "no one uses assembler any more."  All the 
Utilities were written in PL/S, now PL/X.

Not to denigrate assembler programmers, or those that decide to take up 
Sanskrit, but it is a dying art.

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Re: AI expert hot new position.

[Bill Johnson]

What gives away your real skill level is your inability to comprehend English. 
At no point did I say assembler is useless. But, it will be in 5-10 years. What 
proves my point? Ray said so. The assembler list is deader than a door nail. 
Nobody offers it as a training course.

Here’s another fact. I worked in West Virginia. Well, about 30 minutes from WV. 
And I made more money than “real” Systems Programmers working in most major 
cities. Even ones who programmed in Assembler! Factoring in the low cost of 
living here.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 12, 2023, 6:40 AM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
Your claim of salary being equal to real SysProgs does not categorically 
prove that Assembler is useless.

It is very easy to destroy this vacuous argument.
Let's say you were employed in New York and your colleague (Assembler 
expert) was employed in West Virginia.
In this case, you might even earn more than your colleague, due to 
regional economics (nothing to do with technical ability).

Your logic, or lack thereof, gives away your real skill level.

Regards,
David

On 2023-09-11 23:00, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Some “geniuses” here, at least some self proclaimed ones, think knowing 
> assembler makes them real Systems Programmers. Well, I’ve been getting paid 
> like one for 2 decades. Anyone dumb enough to learn assembler in 2023, which 
> is dying a slow tortuous death, deserves to be replaced by AI. (They will be) 
> My best advice to anyone who is young enough to still be working in this 
> profession 10 years from now, is learn AI & forget about assembler. You’ll be 
> glad you did.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Sunday, September 10, 2023, 4:37 PM, Bob T Roller 
> <044ef325f6c3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Just go to the CNBC home page. It’s now the third story.
>
> Sent from Proton Mail for iOS
>
> On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 4:33 PM, Bob T Roller 
> <[044ef325f6c3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu](mailto:On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 
> at 4:33 PM, Bob T Roller < wrote:
>
>> It’s from CNBC. It’s the lead story. I also checked the link after I got the 
>> email.
>>
>> Sent from Proton Mail for iOS
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 3:58 PM, Paul Gilmartin 
>> <[042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu](mailto:On Sun, Sep 10, 
>> 2023 at 3:58 PM, Paul Gilmartin < wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 10 Sep 2023 17:23:10 +, Bob T Roller wrote:
>>>
>>>> AI will pay handsomely.
>>>>
>>>> AI expert is a hot new position in the freelance jobs market
>>>> https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/10/ai-expert-is-a-hot-new-position-in-the-freelance-jobs-market.html?__source=iosappshare%7Ccom.apple.UIKit.activity.CopyToPasteboard
>>>>
>>> That URL looked funny to me, so I asked on an Apple-centric forum and got:
>>>
>>>> The rest of the URL is critical. It means your copy/paste buffer is being 
>>>> sent over the internet. It could be benign, like a text to voice app, a 
>>>> grammar checker, a scanner program. Or, it could be what the last security 
>>>> update was all about.
>>>>
>>>> You need to find out if the network location can be trusted, so look at 
>>>> the first part of the URL.
>>>> Sent from Proton Mail for iOS
>>> --
>>> gil
>>>
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Re: AI expert hot new position.

[Bill Johnson]

Some “geniuses” here, at least some self proclaimed ones, think knowing 
assembler makes them real Systems Programmers. Well, I’ve been getting paid 
like one for 2 decades. Anyone dumb enough to learn assembler in 2023, which is 
dying a slow tortuous death, deserves to be replaced by AI. (They will be) My 
best advice to anyone who is young enough to still be working in this 
profession 10 years from now, is learn AI & forget about assembler. You’ll be 
glad you did.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 10, 2023, 4:37 PM, Bob T Roller 
<044ef325f6c3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Just go to the CNBC home page. It’s now the third story.

Sent from Proton Mail for iOS

On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 4:33 PM, Bob T Roller 
<[044ef325f6c3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu](mailto:On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 
at 4:33 PM, Bob T Roller < wrote:

> It’s from CNBC. It’s the lead story. I also checked the link after I got the 
> email.
>
> Sent from Proton Mail for iOS
>
> On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 3:58 PM, Paul Gilmartin 
> <[042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu](mailto:On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 
> at 3:58 PM, Paul Gilmartin < wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 10 Sep 2023 17:23:10 +, Bob T Roller wrote:
>>
>>>AI will pay handsomely.
>>>
>>>AI expert is a hot new position in the freelance jobs market
>>>https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/10/ai-expert-is-a-hot-new-position-in-the-freelance-jobs-market.html?__source=iosappshare%7Ccom.apple.UIKit.activity.CopyToPasteboard
>>>
>> That URL looked funny to me, so I asked on an Apple-centric forum and got:
>>
>>> The rest of the URL is critical. It means your copy/paste buffer is being 
>>> sent over the internet. It could be benign, like a text to voice app, a 
>>> grammar checker, a scanner program. Or, it could be what the last security 
>>> update was all about.
>>>
>>> You need to find out if the network location can be trusted, so look at the 
>>> first part of the URL.
>>
>>>Sent from Proton Mail for iOS
>>
>> --
>> gil
>>
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Re: AI expert hot new position.

[Bill Johnson]

That’s a good article. Also indicates where the future of IT is headed.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 10, 2023, 4:37 PM, Bob T Roller 
<044ef325f6c3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Just go to the CNBC home page. It’s now the third story.

Sent from Proton Mail for iOS

On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 4:33 PM, Bob T Roller 
<[044ef325f6c3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu](mailto:On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 
at 4:33 PM, Bob T Roller < wrote:

> It’s from CNBC. It’s the lead story. I also checked the link after I got the 
> email.
>
> Sent from Proton Mail for iOS
>
> On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 3:58 PM, Paul Gilmartin 
> <[042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu](mailto:On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 
> at 3:58 PM, Paul Gilmartin < wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 10 Sep 2023 17:23:10 +, Bob T Roller wrote:
>>
>>>AI will pay handsomely.
>>>
>>>AI expert is a hot new position in the freelance jobs market
>>>https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/10/ai-expert-is-a-hot-new-position-in-the-freelance-jobs-market.html?__source=iosappshare%7Ccom.apple.UIKit.activity.CopyToPasteboard
>>>
>> That URL looked funny to me, so I asked on an Apple-centric forum and got:
>>
>>> The rest of the URL is critical. It means your copy/paste buffer is being 
>>> sent over the internet. It could be benign, like a text to voice app, a 
>>> grammar checker, a scanner program. Or, it could be what the last security 
>>> update was all about.
>>>
>>> You need to find out if the network location can be trusted, so look at the 
>>> first part of the URL.
>>
>>>Sent from Proton Mail for iOS
>>
>> --
>> gil
>>
>> --
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Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days

[Bill Johnson]

This list is dying just like assembler. Another 5, maybe 10 years, both will be 
in the dustbin of history. In 10 years, most of the dominant posters will be 
gone. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, September 8, 2023, 7:44 PM, Tom Brennan 
 wrote:

I'd say head them over to
https://www.facebook.com/groups/ProfessionalMainframers

In spite of the name, it's 90% nostalgia - maybe more.  And there are a 
lot of retired folks there to give upvotes and comments - unlike a new 
email group.

For me, I don't mind anything reasonably on-topic.  It's the political, 
know-it-all, truck speed limits, I-won-a-game-show type of posts that 
are driving people away.  Tom's opinion.

On 9/8/2023 2:17 PM, Mark Zelden wrote:
> I'm with most of the posters...
> 
> There needs to be an IBM-MAIN-NOSTALGIA list and these trips down memory lane
> moved there when they start.
> 
> I was pretty much gone from IBM-MAIN over the last 2-3 years due to just 
> being too busy
> to try and keep up but recently have tried to start following again.  The 
> signal to noise ratio
> is near unbearable and much worse now. The bickering like children is 
> unprofessional.
> 
> I follow from the web archives instead of email, but I guess to get any value 
> out of this
> list and contribute when I can I'm going to have to seriously consider moving 
> to email and
> filtering out the noise and certain posters like some others have done.  Too 
> bad that
> some people are being driven away completely.
> 
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Re: CICS Question

[Bill Johnson]

I think Rex is onto something. 

Cause

Module CEEPLPKA was failing on the BLDL because empty library, PRD2.SCEECICS, 
was in the LIBDEF search.

Resolving The Problem

Remove empty Language Environment (LE) library PRD2.SCEECICS from the LIBDEF 
search and include the PRD2.SCEEBASE at the beginning of the LIBDEF search.

PRD2.SCEECICS is usually included in the LIBDEF statement as documented in 
section1.4.2.3 Sample LIBDEF statement of the CICS System Definition Guide:
// LIBDEF PHASE,SEARCH=(PRD2.SCEECICS,        1
                             PRD2.SCEEBASE,   2
                             cicslib.sublib,...

So, it is likely that the modules in PRD2.SCEECICS were moved to the Shared 
Virtual Area (SVA).


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, September 8, 2023, 10:48 AM, Pommier, Rex  
wrote:

Hi Terri,

At first blush the LE issue appears to be a "not found" type error.  What LE 
libraries are in your DFHRPL?  We're 5.6 and have

CEE.SCEECICS 
CEE.SCEERUN2 
CEE.SCEERUN  


I also managed to find the 0011020 - it's in the LE runtime messages manual.  
Here's the explanation for what it's worth..

11020

Last Updated: 2022-12-14
Explanation

Unable to load Language Environment® modules in order to initialize Language 
Environment for the CICS® region.
System action

CICS continues system initialization with Language Environment inactive.
Programmer response

Make sure the CSD definitions are correct for Language Environment. Also, make 
sure that the CICS region size is large enough to run Language Environment.



Rex




-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Shaffer, Terri
Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 9:24 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] CICS Question

I know there is a CICS forum, But I hope someone can answer a quick question, 
or I hope its quick.

I am trying to upgrade my CICS regions from 3.1 (don’t ask)  to newer.

And I am having 2 issues, that I have searched the manuals but must be missing 
something simple.

You use to add CEE group and then add that to a list and poof, LE programs, etc 
got installed.

Now I get, for which I cant find the 0011020 RC?

DFHAP1203I A03CICGS Language Environment is being initialized.
DFHAP1200 A03CICGS A CICS request to the Language Environment has failed. 
Reason code '0011020'.
DFHAP1208 A03CICGS Language Environment cannot support the Cobol language.
DFHAP1209 A03CICGS Language Environment cannot support the C/C++ languages.
DFHAP1210 A03CICGS Language Environment cannot support the PL/I language.

 Did I miss a library or Parm someplace or what?

Lastly and not sure if this is caused by another issue but getting the 
following message

DFHAM4837 E A03CICGS Install of DB2ENTRY ACIENTRY failed because a DB2CONN is 
Not installed
DFHAM4837 E A03CICGS Install of DB2ENTRY ACQENTRY failed because a DB2CONN is 
Not installed

Then I get.

DFHDB2110I 08/09/2023 15:11:25 A03CICGS The total number of threads exceeds 
TCBLIMIT.

Thanks!!!

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com


 
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Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days

[Bill Johnson]

I agree. ROSCOE was clunky & less productive. I’ve never used the other TSO 
alternatives.
I seem to remember vaguely ROSCOE requiring the user to “attach” the member you 
wanted to edit but that was 35 years ago.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 9:15 PM, Leonard D Woren 
 wrote:

Bill Johnson wrote on 9/7/2023 1:05 PM:
> We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less 
> resources. I hated it.

ROSCOE was one of a collection of TSO alternatives, which were all 
junk.  TONE, ACEP, Wylbur, maybe more that I don't remember.  They all 
had 1 two-pronged design goal:  except for Wylbur, a PITA in its own 
category, allow TSO-like online use without the perceived overhead of 
TSO, and also, they would run on systems other than MVS.

The reason the resource utilization of all of those was lower than TSO 
is that it took longer for programmers to get their work done, so the 
resource utilization was spread out over more elapsed time, lowering 
the apparent resources used in a given elapsed time period, but also 
lowering productivity.  Something beancounters generally don't factor 
because they don't understand it.  They liked the fact that a given 
set of hardware could support 50 (choose your poison from above) 
online users while TSO could support only 25.

Fortunately, we're way past hardware costing more than people.


/Leonard


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Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days

[Bill Johnson]

Agree. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 8:00 PM, Matt Hogstrom  
wrote:

We used it at a bank because of the number of application developers.  TSO was 
reserved for system programmers.  Also, it was limited in what you could do 
with the OS.  made sense for the purpose but it was not a lot of fun.  It was 
like being moderated at every turn.  TSO, was, Liberating.

Matt Hogstrom
PGP key 0F143BC1

> On Sep 7, 2023, at 15:41, Bob Bridges  wrote:
> 
> We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less 
> resources.

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Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days

[Bill Johnson]

I didn’t start it. But, I’ll bet I get the warnings.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 7:21 PM, Bob Bridges  
wrote:

And, they're off again.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* "If dickering won't work, then you have to fight.  But I think maybe it 
takes a man who has been shot at to appreciate how much better it is to fumble 
your way through a political compromise rather than have the top of your head 
blown off."  He frowned and suddenly looked very old.  "When to talk and when 
to fight -- that is the most difficult decision to make wisely of all the 
decisions in life."  -from _Podkayne of Mars_, by Robert A Heinlein */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Spiegel
Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2023 18:50

Hi Bill,
You said: "... because it used less resources ..."
Shmegegge, you should've said "fewer". That is the correct usage.
For a guy who knows so much about about a multitude of topics, it behooves you 
to write more correctly.
It might even increase your credibility.

--- On 2023-09-07 16:05, Bill Johnson wrote:
> We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less 
> resources. I hated it.

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Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days

[Bill Johnson]

1972-3. My high school was rated one of the best high schools in America. And 
just recently received an award for being one of the best again. (Last week)

The Ohio rankings are dragged down by white rural MAGA schools and inner city 
students. The suburban schools in my area are top performers, nationally.

I’ve been published approximately 100 times in the local newspaper. Also in 
Information Week. Mostly political in the newspaper. Because I’m politically 
active. I also ran for commissioner. Ran 2 businesses, including one that did 
business with the mafia. Was on the Millionaire show with Regis. Missed the hot 
seat by .08. I was 4 time spelling runner up in grade school. My spelling and 
grammar can be perfect when I care. Which I don’t on this list. Heck, some 
posters are barely literate. I’m making you the grammar and spelling police.







Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 7:14 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
According to a recent study, Ohio ranked 36. I'm not so sure I would want to 
boast about that.

Please see: 2023’s States with the Best & Worst School Systems 
(wallethub.com)<https://wallethub.com/edu/e/states-with-the-best-schools/5335>

Regards,
David
[https://cdn.wallethub.com/wallethub/posts/94009/states-with-the-best-worst-school-systems.png]<https://wallethub.com/edu/e/states-with-the-best-schools/5335>
2023’s States with the Best & Worst School 
Systems<https://wallethub.com/edu/e/states-with-the-best-schools/5335>
wallethub.com


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: September 7, 2023 6:59 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days

Ohio, I was at the top in Algebra and Geometry. Early 70’s. I still have the 
awards program. I’m very proud of it and my Math expertise paid off handsomely.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 6:50 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
You said: "... because it used less resources ..."
Shmegegge, you should've said "fewer". That is the correct usage.
For a guy who knows so much about about a multitude of topics, it
behooves you to write more correctly.
It might even increase your credibility.

Regards,
David

On 2023-09-07 16:05, Bill Johnson wrote:
> We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less 
> resources. I hated it.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 3:56 PM, Leonard D Woren 
>  wrote:
>
> What was the first OS that you had a 2 MB TSO region?  What hardware.
>
> MVT TSO on the 4 MB 360/91 at UCLA was about 3/4 MB .  There was a lot
> you could do, although it was slow.  I did experiment with overlay
> modules though.  Bleah.
>
> The reason you could do a lot in 3/4 MB is that it was done in
> efficient languages, like Assembler.  None of these modern bloatware
> languages that make every app on my phone 32 MB minimum, and often up
> to 500 MB.
>
> /Leonard
>
>
> Seymour J Metz wrote on 9/7/2023 3:32 AM:
>> I never had TSO in less than 2 MiB; 768 KiB gives me shudders.
>>
>> 
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
>> Clem Clarke 
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 6:38 AM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
>>
>>
>> Running TSO in 3/4 of a meg was interesting.  And VERY slow.
>>
> --
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Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days

[Bill Johnson]

English your second language? The program from the awards ceremony. I still 
have it.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 7:15 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
You said: "... I still have the awards program ..."
Please translate this statement into English.

Regards,
David

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: September 7, 2023 6:59 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days

Ohio, I was at the top in Algebra and Geometry. Early 70’s. I still have the 
awards program. I’m very proud of it and my Math expertise paid off handsomely.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 6:50 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
You said: "... because it used less resources ..."
Shmegegge, you should've said "fewer". That is the correct usage.
For a guy who knows so much about about a multitude of topics, it
behooves you to write more correctly.
It might even increase your credibility.

Regards,
David

On 2023-09-07 16:05, Bill Johnson wrote:
> We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less 
> resources. I hated it.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 3:56 PM, Leonard D Woren 
>  wrote:
>
> What was the first OS that you had a 2 MB TSO region?  What hardware.
>
> MVT TSO on the 4 MB 360/91 at UCLA was about 3/4 MB .  There was a lot
> you could do, although it was slow.  I did experiment with overlay
> modules though.  Bleah.
>
> The reason you could do a lot in 3/4 MB is that it was done in
> efficient languages, like Assembler.  None of these modern bloatware
> languages that make every app on my phone 32 MB minimum, and often up
> to 500 MB.
>
> /Leonard
>
>
> Seymour J Metz wrote on 9/7/2023 3:32 AM:
>> I never had TSO in less than 2 MiB; 768 KiB gives me shudders.
>>
>> 
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
>> Clem Clarke 
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 6:38 AM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
>>
>>
>> Running TSO in 3/4 of a meg was interesting.  And VERY slow.
>>
> --
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Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days

[Bill Johnson]

Ohio, I was at the top in Algebra and Geometry. Early 70’s. I still have the 
awards program. I’m very proud of it and my Math expertise paid off handsomely.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 6:50 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
You said: "... because it used less resources ..."
Shmegegge, you should've said "fewer". That is the correct usage.
For a guy who knows so much about about a multitude of topics, it 
behooves you to write more correctly.
It might even increase your credibility.

Regards,
David

On 2023-09-07 16:05, Bill Johnson wrote:
> We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less 
> resources. I hated it.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 3:56 PM, Leonard D Woren 
>  wrote:
>
> What was the first OS that you had a 2 MB TSO region?  What hardware.
>
> MVT TSO on the 4 MB 360/91 at UCLA was about 3/4 MB .  There was a lot
> you could do, although it was slow.  I did experiment with overlay
> modules though.  Bleah.
>
> The reason you could do a lot in 3/4 MB is that it was done in
> efficient languages, like Assembler.  None of these modern bloatware
> languages that make every app on my phone 32 MB minimum, and often up
> to 500 MB.
>
> /Leonard
>
>
> Seymour J Metz wrote on 9/7/2023 3:32 AM:
>> I never had TSO in less than 2 MiB; 768 KiB gives me shudders.
>>
>> 
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
>> Clem Clarke 
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 6:38 AM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
>>
>>
>> Running TSO in 3/4 of a meg was interesting.  And VERY slow.
>>
> --
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>
>
>
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Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days

[Bill Johnson]

LOLOLOLOL, I love that you’re obsessed with me. Are you getting enough sleep?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 6:50 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
You said: "... because it used less resources ..."
Shmegegge, you should've said "fewer". That is the correct usage.
For a guy who knows so much about about a multitude of topics, it 
behooves you to write more correctly.
It might even increase your credibility.

Regards,
David

On 2023-09-07 16:05, Bill Johnson wrote:
> We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less 
> resources. I hated it.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 3:56 PM, Leonard D Woren 
>  wrote:
>
> What was the first OS that you had a 2 MB TSO region?  What hardware.
>
> MVT TSO on the 4 MB 360/91 at UCLA was about 3/4 MB .  There was a lot
> you could do, although it was slow.  I did experiment with overlay
> modules though.  Bleah.
>
> The reason you could do a lot in 3/4 MB is that it was done in
> efficient languages, like Assembler.  None of these modern bloatware
> languages that make every app on my phone 32 MB minimum, and often up
> to 500 MB.
>
> /Leonard
>
>
> Seymour J Metz wrote on 9/7/2023 3:32 AM:
>> I never had TSO in less than 2 MiB; 768 KiB gives me shudders.
>>
>> 
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
>> Clem Clarke 
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 6:38 AM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
>>
>>
>> Running TSO in 3/4 of a meg was interesting.  And VERY slow.
>>
> --
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>
>
>
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Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days

[Bill Johnson]

I had been using TSO/ISPF for a decade mostly at GM, then EDS when GM bought 
them. Before accepting the job at the small local company (hospital) that used 
ROSCOE. In my programming days.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 4:41 PM, Bob Bridges  
wrote:

If you can explain why without deriding anyone, Bill, I'd be interested in 
knowing why.  I first encountered ROSCOE in 1980 and used it for a while 
without thinking much about it.  When I realized I could change things around 
in it, I got excited.

It was another two years before I was exposed to ISPF.  I still have ROSCOE on 
my resume, but there isn't much excuse for it; I haven't touched it since then, 
so if anyone asked me to do anything with it I'd have to start over.

If you were already familiar with ISPF and thought ROSCOE a poorer product, I 
guess that makes sense.  I didn't know anything about ISPF until ~after~ 
ROSCOE, so I was unable to compare them.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* A woman means by Unselfishness chiefly taking trouble for others; a man 
means not giving trouble for othersThus while the woman thinks of doing 
good offices and the man of respecting other people's rights, each sex, without 
any obvious unreason, can and does regard the other as radically selfish.  
-from The Screwtape Letters by C S Lewis */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2023 16:06

We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less 
resources. I hated it.

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Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days

[Bill Johnson]

We used to use ROSCOE at a small shop in the 80’s because it used less 
resources. I hated it.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 3:56 PM, Leonard D Woren 
 wrote:

What was the first OS that you had a 2 MB TSO region?  What hardware.

MVT TSO on the 4 MB 360/91 at UCLA was about 3/4 MB .  There was a lot 
you could do, although it was slow.  I did experiment with overlay 
modules though.  Bleah.

The reason you could do a lot in 3/4 MB is that it was done in 
efficient languages, like Assembler.  None of these modern bloatware 
languages that make every app on my phone 32 MB minimum, and often up 
to 500 MB.

/Leonard


Seymour J Metz wrote on 9/7/2023 3:32 AM:
> I never had TSO in less than 2 MiB; 768 KiB gives me shudders.
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
> Clem Clarke 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 6:38 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive - Dumps - Early days
>
>
> Running TSO in 3/4 of a meg was interesting.  And VERY slow.
>

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Re: There are good bosses and then there are the other kind

[Bill Johnson]

Disregard AI at your own peril.





OpenAI launches ChatGPT Enterprise, the firm's biggest announcement since 
ChatGPT.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/28/openai-chatgpt-enterprise-launches.html






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Re: There are good bosses and then there are the other kind

[Bill Johnson]

Agree completely. What really irked me was bosses who weren’t mainframe 
literate who thought they had a better grasp of what and how to solve mainframe 
issues.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, September 7, 2023, 12:55 PM, Retired Mainframer 
<03a485c129c3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

I always gave my bosses two choices:
    Tell me what to do and I'll do it.
    Tell me what you want and I'll see that you get it.

It took a while for some to figure out that the second was a better option.
A few never did.

Very few could compare to your Mr. Condon but they were indeed a pleasure.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2023 3:08 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: There are good bosses and then there are the other kind

I remember with fondness an old warrant officer who

 1. Had firm ideas about what he wanted.
 2' Ensured that we understood what he wanted.
 3. Insisted that we give him what he wanted.
 4. Got out of our way and let us do our jobs.
 5. Had our backs.

On item 4, I don't mean that he was aloof; he was always available if we
wanted to discuss things. But I never saw him micromanaging.

Mr. Condon, wherever you are, it was a pleasure working for you.

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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

Monty the Mustang will be disappointed.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, September 6, 2023, 9:25 PM, Matt Hogstrom  
wrote:

Sorry Dave but I’m skipping to Bill’s response.  

I recently blocked Bill's e-mail and don’t get to see his posts apart from 
people’s responses.  For those that might be interested … block 
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu 
 which seems to be 
Bill’s address.  My inbox is cleaner except for the responses to him.  He 
always could deregister and re-register but then his intentions to disrupt 
would be obvious.  Bill, you were entertaining and now I’m just embarrassed for 
you.

Matt Hogstrom

“It may be cognitive, but, it ain’t intuitive."
— Hogstrom



> On Sep 6, 2023, at 9:29 AM, David Spiegel 
> <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
>> LOL, good find Dave. I love how in your head


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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

Most businesses disagree with you and are spending billions to achieve.

https://www.accenture.com/us-en/services/ai-artificial-intelligence-index

Comparing 1973 to 2023 is like comparing a model T Ford to a space-X rocket. 
Technological advances are coming faster & faster.

The phone in my hand has more computing power than the computer that put man on 
the moon. By a large factor.

https://blog.adobe.com/en/publish/2022/11/08/fast-forward-comparing-1980s-supercomputer-to-modern-smartphone

I agree, it isn’t so much a new software development as it is massive storage, 
incredible processing speed, & ability to put the results into a form the user 
is requesting. But, there is some logic and machine learning involved. The next 
decade will be amazing.




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, September 6, 2023, 7:31 PM, Leonard D Woren 
 wrote:

Bill Johnson wrote on 9/6/2023 6:27 AM:
> [...]  AI is the future. [...]

FSV "future".  Who remembers the "Parry" program from the early 
1970s?  At SAIL, later renamed to SU-AI.  Oh, if you weren't on the 
ARPAnet circa 1973, you probably never saw Parry.  It was the first AI 
program I knew about.  I don't remember which famous computer science 
guy said this, but there haven't been and will never be any 
"significant breakthroughs" in AI -- all progress will be slow and 
incremental.  I say that recent apparent advances in AI are more due 
to faster cheaper computers and storage, and now the Internet, than to 
any new software tech.


/Leonard


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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

Because throughout over half my career ACF2 was the number 1 security package 
and RACF only had around 20% of the market. Medical Mutual, my longest time at 
any one employer used Top Secret. Most people who claim to be knowledgeable 
about the mainframe, would know ACF2 was the number 1 security package for most 
of the late 20th century. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, September 6, 2023, 4:12 PM, Wayne Bickerdike  
wrote:

How can Bombastic Bill have worked all those years and never worked in a
RACF shop? VSE shops never had RACF, however, RACF has had the Lion's share
for years.

On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 5:32 AM Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> Yes, assemblers came first, but <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laning_and_Zierler_system> was well before
> FORTRAN. I' not sure whether to cite the earlier <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plankalk%C3%BCl>, as it was never
> implemented.
>
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Bernd Oppolzer 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 3:02 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.
>
> Ok ... not quire correct, but:
> the first ASSEMBLER languages go back to the years 1947 to 1951, if my
> sources are right;
> there was some sort of ASSEMBLER for the 701 (which was available in
> 1953, IIRC).
> The first HLL was Fortran, IMO, which should be 1956 ca.
> So there are some years in the 1950 time frame, where ASSEMBLER was the
> only choice;
> that's what I am talking about.
> IIRC, in the first years of HLLs, there were some debates that HLLs are
> not usable because of
> the poor code the compilers generated at that time. This was true even
> in the 1960s for the
> first versions of PL/1.
> Kind regards
> Bernd
>
>
> Am 06.09.2023 um 17:55 schrieb Seymour J Metz:
> >> because in the 1950s and 1960s,
> >> it was the only language we had.
> > ?
> >
> > COBOL
> > COMIT
> > FACT
> > FARGO
> > FORTRAN
> > IPL-V
> > LISP
> > PL/I
> > RPG
> > SNOBOL
> >
> >
>
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-- 
Wayne V. Bickerdike

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Re: LexisNexis

[Bill Johnson]

Not exactly. It is owned by RELX. Which is primarily based in London but has 
offices in NY & worldwide. It trades on primarily the LSE but also in NY & 
elsewhere.

RELX plc is a British multinational information and analytics company 
headquartered in London, England. Its businesses provide scientific, technical 
and medical information and analytics; legal information and analytics; 
decision-making tools; and organise exhibitions.



CORPORATE GOVERNANCE AND STRUCTURE

RELX PLC is the sole parent company of the Group. It owns 100% of the shares in 
RELX Group plc which, in turn, holds all of the operating businesses, 
subsidiaries and financing activities of the Group. RELX PLC, its subsidiaries, 
associates and joint ventures are together known as RELX.

The shares of RELX PLC are traded through its primary listing on the London 
Stock Exchange and its secondary listing on Euronext Amsterdam, while its 
securities are also traded on the New York Stock Exchange under its American 
Depositary Share Programme. Accordingly, the Board has implemented standards of 
corporate governance and disclosure applicable to a UK incorporated company, 
with listings in London, Amsterdam and New York.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, September 6, 2023, 12:39 PM, Peter Sylvester 
 wrote:

Uk is not US.


On 06/09/2023 15:15, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Lol, it pays to do thorough research. 1818 it began.
>
> https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/legal-information-management/article/lexisnexis-the-future-of-law-since-1818/08BFF6F4025EB3800E2E44681CA6025C
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Wednesday, September 6, 2023, 9:05 AM, Joe Monk  
> wrote:
>
> "LexisNexis is over 200 years old..."
>
> Bull. LexisNexis was started by a lawyer in 1956...
>
> Joe
>

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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

In fact I’m not. Because I only respond to attacks from the TT. Many here 
actually fear the TT. (Terrible Twenty) The TT thinks they run the list. They 
don’t.

Like I’ve said a number of times, there are very few experts here. I’m not one. 
If you have an SMP/E question, you probably have a 60-70% chance of getting the 
correct answer from the TT. Whereas you’ve got 99.9% chance with Kurt 
Quackenbush. You probably have a 60% chance of getting the correct answer for 
z/OS internals from the TT & 99.9% from Mr. Relson.

Knowing who to trust 100% and who to fact check with the experts is probably 
the most important thing here. I know if I want hardware numbers from the 60’s 
& 70’s, you’re the man.




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, September 6, 2023, 11:47 AM, Seymour J Metz  
wrote:

> Putting down other people in this profession is the MO of guys like the 
> terrible twenty.

I hope that you are including yourself in that.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 9:09 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

Assembler is of little value and declining every year for most 
Installers/Systems Programmers not a part of ISVs. Which is the vast majority.

Putting down other people in this profession is the MO of guys like the 
terrible twenty. Who claim that if you don’t know or use assembler, you’re just 
an “Installer” and a second rate Systems Programmer.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, September 6, 2023, 9:03 AM, Bernd Oppolzer 
 wrote:

What you are quoting (1., 2., 3.) are facts ... of course true, and
nothing to dispute about.
But your conclusions are wrong ... Assembler is of value anyway; Ray
Mullins DID say that.
For example for studying the outcome of translators and for performance
analysis etc.
IMO knowledge of Assembler is NEEDED, once you want to dig a little
deeper into machine architecture
and other related topics. The Assembler language opens the door for the
understanding of registers,
storage, addressing schemes, operation formats and so on ... that is:
the hardware.

IMO, you always seem to be forced to put down other people and their
skills; I don't understand why.
But what scares me most is that your constant use of words like
"dinosaurs" and "narcissists"
(and "idiots", BTW) in this discussions. And that's why I will not
answer to any more mails from you from now on.
Should have done so earlier, maybe.

Bernd


Am 06.09.2023 um 14:11 schrieb Bill Johnson:
> Everything I said about assembler has rung true.
>
> 1. The assembler listserv is nearly dead.
> 2. One of assemblers experts, Ray Mullins, stated unequivocally its market is 
> getting smaller and smaller and is a niche product.
> 3. Bernd said since 2005, there’s been little demand for assembler training.
>
> ...
>
> And the dinosaurs here trying so hard to not become extinct.
> Notice how the 20-30 experts can’t say, Bill Johnson is right. Because it 
> makes them wrong and narcissists don’t like saying they were wrong.
>
> ...

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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

Since I’ve never worked in a RACF shop, ACF2 & Top Secret only, is this 
relevant? Or is your narcissism really strong today?
Do you know what a narcissist is? Because you’re textbook.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, September 6, 2023, 10:30 AM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
Do you know the meaning of "non sequitur"?
What is the connection between my attention to detail, your mother's 
career and your winning awards?
Now that you're busy boasting, why don't you also tell us which state 
gave you the awards?

Since you're the self-proclaimed expert on the relevance of Assembler, 
please explain how  an installer like yourself would create an ICHRDSNT 
Exit (with appropriate SMP/e control cards).

Regards,
David

On 2023-09-06 08:11, Bill Johnson wrote:
> LOL, good find Dave. I love how in your head I am. But, you won’t find many 
> grammar or spelling errors. My mom was a teacher. Dave has relegated himself 
> to spelling and grammar checks. Which takes me back to the state awards in 
> Algebra and Geometry I received. At the top in those subjects.
>
> Everything I said about assembler has rung true.
>
> 1. The assembler listserv is nearly dead.2. One of assemblers experts, Ray 
> Mullins, stated unequivocally its market is getting smaller and smaller and 
> is a niche product.3. Bernd said since 2005, there’s been little demand for 
> assembler training.
>
> Clearly assembler is not long for the mainframe world and just waiting for 
> the grim reaper to arrive. And the dinosaurs here trying so hard to not 
> become extinct.
>
> Notice how the 20-30 experts can’t say, Bill Johnson is right. Because it 
> makes them wrong and narcissists don’t like saying they were wrong.
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 9:14 PM, David Spiegel 
> <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> You said: "...Your comprehension of basic English are terrible. ..."
> Doorknob, it should have been "is terrible".
>
> Another case of the pot calling the kettle black.
> Open mouth, change feet.
>
> Regards,
> David
>
> On 2023-09-05 20:46, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> I never once said it would assemble or run. I can see why you guys went into 
>> IT. Your comprehension of basic English are terrible.
>>
>>
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 8:22 PM, Tom Brennan 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> Oh that's funny!  Then what are these notes from you I found in my trash
>> folder?  Sounds like you were sure it would assemble and run perfectly,
>> and also be able to take over someone's job today.
>>
>>      Why do you doubt it? Is it because you hope it doesn’t? Certainly, one
>>      of you assembler geniuses could test it.
>>
>>      Lol, how about going to chatgpt and asking the same question. So that
>>      cut and paste isn’t a factor.
>>
>>      What are you afraid of? That a computer can do what you do? That your
>>      “skills” aren’t all that impressive and can be automated away?
>>
>> On 9/5/2023 4:47 PM, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>> I never presented it as a working model.
>> --
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>>
>>
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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

ew for each book and 
>>> compared the 'differences'.   Not very impressed.
>>>
>>> My PhD son uses it to find obscure hypotheses and formulas that 
>>> would otherwise require a great many hours (or days) of searching.   
>>> My MS son uses it in a similar fashion to ferret out alternative 
>>> options for the various cell growing and protein extraction for his 
>>> job.   A very useful tool, but not yet SkyNet...
>>>
>>> YMMV.
>>>
>>> On 9/5/2023 9:36 AM, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>>> We are all retired. The other 2 went before me. I went in 
>>>> July 2022. You’re an idiot regardless. What are you afraid of? That 
>>>> a computer can do what you do? That your “skills” aren’t all that 
>>>> impressive and can be automated away?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 12:25 PM, David Spiegel 
>>>> <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Bill,
>>>> I have a better idea.
>>>> Why don't you and the 2 buddies who helped you modify the IEFUSI 
>>>> fix it?
>>>> Probably because you don't have the wherewithal (even with 2 helpers).
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>> On 2023-09-05 12:04, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>>>> Lol, how about going to chatgpt and asking the same question. So 
>>>>> that cut and paste isn’t a factor.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 12:02 PM, David Spiegel 
>>>>> <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Steve,
>>>>> It won't. The first executable statement is missing a comma between
>>>>> operands.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2023-09-05 11:43, Steve Thompson wrote:
>>>>>> I doubt it will assemble. And even if it does, the results are
>>>>>> unpredictable, other than it will probably ABEND for one reason or
>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are no DCB, OPEN, CLOSE macros while GET and PUT are being 
>>>>>> used.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Me thinks this AI system is confusing a few different assembly
>>>>>> languages together. I wonder how close they came for DOS I/O.
>>>>>> Steve Thompson
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9/5/2023 11:20 AM, Tom Marchant wrote:
>>>>>>> You're right, Tom. That is not a program. Certainly not one that 
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> do what it claims to do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- Tom Marchant On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 10:42:51 -0700, Tom Brennan
>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>> I can't be sure I formatted it properly, but after looking over 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> code, I have nothing to say but WTF? 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      PRINT NOGEN
>>>>>>>>      TITLE 'Simple Addition Program'
>>>>>>>> ** Define storage for input numbers and result
>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>> NUM1 DS    F First input number
>>>>>>>> NUM2 DS    F Second input number
>>>>>>>> RESULT   DS    F Result of addition
>>>>>>>> ** Main program
>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>> MAIN C  0    NUM1   Check if NUM1 is zero
>>>>>>>>      BE ZERO    Branch to ZERO if true
>>>>>>>> ** Read the first number from input
>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>      GET    NUM1,NUMIN  Read NUM1 from input
>>>>>>>>      LA 0,NUM1  Load NUM1 into register
>>>>>>>> ** Read the second number from input
>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>      GET    NUM2,NUMIN  Read NUM2 from input
>>>>>>>>      A  NUM1,NUM2   Add NUM1 and NUM2
>>

Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

Lol, it pays to do thorough research. 1818 it began.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/legal-information-management/article/lexisnexis-the-future-of-law-since-1818/08BFF6F4025EB3800E2E44681CA6025C




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, September 6, 2023, 9:05 AM, Joe Monk  wrote:

"LexisNexis is over 200 years old..."

Bull. LexisNexis was started by a lawyer in 1956...

Joe

On Wed, Sep 6, 2023 at 7:57 AM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Shocking, LexisNexis is over 200 years old and is designed specifically
> for legal purposes. ChatGPT is less than a year old and isn’t designed
> (yet) for the legal profession.
>
> Good choice picking the LexisNexis one.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Wednesday, September 6, 2023, 8:48 AM, Dean Kent 
> wrote:
>
> Which brings up another 'interesting' anecdote.  I used chatGPT to
> 'write' a set of bylaws for a new non-profit for a youth sports club.
> I asked it over a dozen times with different wording, and it came back
> with a wide variety of results - some that were long and included many
> sections, and others that were short and included only what might be
> considered 'necessary' sections.    I have a friend who is an attorney,
> and he sent me the template that LexisNexis provides.  It had a lot
> more content, some which the IRS now indicates is 'preferred' or even
> required.    So I ended up using the template since I could just remove
> or ignore sections that weren't pertinent.  The template also had a
> variety of options (variables, if you will) for wording depending on,
> for example, if the corporation has a CEO or President and whether board
> officers can also be corporate executives, etc.
>
> That caused me to make the decision that I would not consider using
> chatGPT for creating legal documents.  Again, YMMV.
>
> On 9/5/2023 12:27 PM, Steve Thompson wrote:
> > And so we can now understand that when a paralegal or newly minted
> > attorney uses it to find case law for points and authorities, it will
> > will make them up to match what was being searched for when it
> > prepares a motion it was asked for using the results of the search.
> >
> > And some attorneys got a judge quite angry with them when they didn't
> > tell the court this, but the opposing council pointed out they could
> > not find any such case listed in the pleadings/motion. Then the
> > judge's people also could not find same This is the kind of thing
> > that concerns me about AI today. Once it has been taught enough to
> > learn on its own
> >
> > Steve Thompson
> >
> > On 9/5/2023 12:46 PM, Dean Kent wrote:
> >> I spent a bit of time playing with chatGPT to see what it could do.
> >> So did my two sons - one an MS in biotech, the other a PhD in
> >> theoretical physics.    We all came to the same conclusion - chatGPT
> >> is a very, very good Google search that can filter many different
> >> possible 'answers' and come to one that is 'most likely' based on
> >> various factors.  It has little to no creativity or understanding of
> >> what it is asked to do.  Not surprising, but different than what the
> >> popular press seems to say about it.
> >>
> >> One of my questions was to write a simple sort routine in HLASM. It
> >> came back with a template containing the entry/exit code, and then a
> >> comment *insert sort routine here*.    After doing that with many
> >> different simple tasks, I came to the conclusion that the problem
> >> chatGPT has with assembler (but not with C, Python, Java, etc.) is
> >> that there are so few searchable examples of code in assembler.    So
> >> the quality of the results, for any question, depends upon what
> >> exists out on the Internet.  Again, not surprising.
> >>
> >> As another example, I have an interest in what is called 'historical
> >> analysis'.  There are a number of books on the subject, so I asked
> >> chatGPT to compare/contrast two of the books.  Then two other books,
> >> etc.    In literally every case it came back with the same
> >> introductory text and conclusion - but inserted a couple of
> >> paragraphs that was similar to a book review for each book and
> >> compared the 'differences'.  Not very impressed.
> >>
> >> My PhD son uses it to find obscure hypotheses and formulas that would
> >> otherwise require a great many hours (or days) of searching.  My MS
> >> son uses it in a similar fashion to ferret out alternative options
> >> for the various cell growing and protein ex

Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

Assembler is of little value and declining every year for most 
Installers/Systems Programmers not a part of ISVs. Which is the vast majority.

Putting down other people in this profession is the MO of guys like the 
terrible twenty. Who claim that if you don’t know or use assembler, you’re just 
an “Installer” and a second rate Systems Programmer.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, September 6, 2023, 9:03 AM, Bernd Oppolzer 
 wrote:

What you are quoting (1., 2., 3.) are facts ... of course true, and 
nothing to dispute about.
But your conclusions are wrong ... Assembler is of value anyway; Ray 
Mullins DID say that.
For example for studying the outcome of translators and for performance 
analysis etc.
IMO knowledge of Assembler is NEEDED, once you want to dig a little 
deeper into machine architecture
and other related topics. The Assembler language opens the door for the 
understanding of registers,
storage, addressing schemes, operation formats and so on ... that is: 
the hardware.

IMO, you always seem to be forced to put down other people and their 
skills; I don't understand why.
But what scares me most is that your constant use of words like 
"dinosaurs" and "narcissists"
(and "idiots", BTW) in this discussions. And that's why I will not 
answer to any more mails from you from now on.
Should have done so earlier, maybe.

Bernd


Am 06.09.2023 um 14:11 schrieb Bill Johnson:
> Everything I said about assembler has rung true.
>
> 1. The assembler listserv is nearly dead.
> 2. One of assemblers experts, Ray Mullins, stated unequivocally its market is 
> getting smaller and smaller and is a niche product.
> 3. Bernd said since 2005, there’s been little demand for assembler training.
>
> ...
>
> And the dinosaurs here trying so hard to not become extinct.
> Notice how the 20-30 experts can’t say, Bill Johnson is right. Because it 
> makes them wrong and narcissists don’t like saying they were wrong.
>
> ...

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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

Shocking, LexisNexis is over 200 years old and is designed specifically for 
legal purposes. ChatGPT is less than a year old and isn’t designed (yet) for 
the legal profession.

Good choice picking the LexisNexis one.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, September 6, 2023, 8:48 AM, Dean Kent  wrote:

Which brings up another 'interesting' anecdote.   I used chatGPT to 
'write' a set of bylaws for a new non-profit for a youth sports club.   
I asked it over a dozen times with different wording, and it came back 
with a wide variety of results - some that were long and included many 
sections, and others that were short and included only what might be 
considered 'necessary' sections.    I have a friend who is an attorney, 
and he sent me the template that LexisNexis provides.   It had a lot 
more content, some which the IRS now indicates is 'preferred' or even 
required.    So I ended up using the template since I could just remove 
or ignore sections that weren't pertinent.   The template also had a 
variety of options (variables, if you will) for wording depending on, 
for example, if the corporation has a CEO or President and whether board 
officers can also be corporate executives, etc.

That caused me to make the decision that I would not consider using 
chatGPT for creating legal documents.   Again, YMMV.

On 9/5/2023 12:27 PM, Steve Thompson wrote:
> And so we can now understand that when a paralegal or newly minted 
> attorney uses it to find case law for points and authorities, it will 
> will make them up to match what was being searched for when it 
> prepares a motion it was asked for using the results of the search.
>
> And some attorneys got a judge quite angry with them when they didn't 
> tell the court this, but the opposing council pointed out they could 
> not find any such case listed in the pleadings/motion. Then the 
> judge's people also could not find same This is the kind of thing 
> that concerns me about AI today. Once it has been taught enough to 
> learn on its own
>
> Steve Thompson
>
> On 9/5/2023 12:46 PM, Dean Kent wrote:
>> I spent a bit of time playing with chatGPT to see what it could do.   
>> So did my two sons - one an MS in biotech, the other a PhD in 
>> theoretical physics.    We all came to the same conclusion - chatGPT 
>> is a very, very good Google search that can filter many different 
>> possible 'answers' and come to one that is 'most likely' based on 
>> various factors.  It has little to no creativity or understanding of 
>> what it is asked to do.   Not surprising, but different than what the 
>> popular press seems to say about it.
>>
>> One of my questions was to write a simple sort routine in HLASM. It 
>> came back with a template containing the entry/exit code, and then a 
>> comment *insert sort routine here*.    After doing that with many 
>> different simple tasks, I came to the conclusion that the problem 
>> chatGPT has with assembler (but not with C, Python, Java, etc.) is 
>> that there are so few searchable examples of code in assembler.    So 
>> the quality of the results, for any question, depends upon what 
>> exists out on the Internet.   Again, not surprising.
>>
>> As another example, I have an interest in what is called 'historical 
>> analysis'.   There are a number of books on the subject, so I asked 
>> chatGPT to compare/contrast two of the books.   Then two other books, 
>> etc.    In literally every case it came back with the same 
>> introductory text and conclusion - but inserted a couple of 
>> paragraphs that was similar to a book review for each book and 
>> compared the 'differences'.   Not very impressed.
>>
>> My PhD son uses it to find obscure hypotheses and formulas that would 
>> otherwise require a great many hours (or days) of searching.   My MS 
>> son uses it in a similar fashion to ferret out alternative options 
>> for the various cell growing and protein extraction for his job.   A 
>> very useful tool, but not yet SkyNet...
>>
>> YMMV.
>>
>> On 9/5/2023 9:36 AM, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>> We are all retired. The other 2 went before me. I went in July 2022. 
>>> You’re an idiot regardless. What are you afraid of? That a computer 
>>> can do what you do? That your “skills” aren’t all that impressive 
>>> and can be automated away?
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 12:25 PM, David Spiegel 
>>> <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Bill,
>>> I have a better idea.
>>> Why don't you and the 2 buddies who helped you modify the IE

Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

LOL, good find Dave. I love how in your head I am. But, you won’t find many 
grammar or spelling errors. My mom was a teacher. Dave has relegated himself to 
spelling and grammar checks. Which takes me back to the state awards in Algebra 
and Geometry I received. At the top in those subjects.

Everything I said about assembler has rung true.

1. The assembler listserv is nearly dead.2. One of assemblers experts, Ray 
Mullins, stated unequivocally its market is getting smaller and smaller and is 
a niche product.3. Bernd said since 2005, there’s been little demand for 
assembler training.

Clearly assembler is not long for the mainframe world and just waiting for the 
grim reaper to arrive. And the dinosaurs here trying so hard to not become 
extinct.

Notice how the 20-30 experts can’t say, Bill Johnson is right. Because it makes 
them wrong and narcissists don’t like saying they were wrong.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 9:14 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
You said: "...Your comprehension of basic English are terrible. ..."
Doorknob, it should have been "is terrible".

Another case of the pot calling the kettle black.
Open mouth, change feet.

Regards,
David

On 2023-09-05 20:46, Bill Johnson wrote:
> I never once said it would assemble or run. I can see why you guys went into 
> IT. Your comprehension of basic English are terrible.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 8:22 PM, Tom Brennan 
>  wrote:
>
> Oh that's funny!  Then what are these notes from you I found in my trash
> folder?  Sounds like you were sure it would assemble and run perfectly,
> and also be able to take over someone's job today.
>
>    Why do you doubt it? Is it because you hope it doesn’t? Certainly, one
>    of you assembler geniuses could test it.
>
>    Lol, how about going to chatgpt and asking the same question. So that
>    cut and paste isn’t a factor.
>
>    What are you afraid of? That a computer can do what you do? That your
>    “skills” aren’t all that impressive and can be automated away?
>
> On 9/5/2023 4:47 PM, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> I never presented it as a working model.
> --
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>
>
>
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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

I never once said it would assemble or run. I can see why you guys went into 
IT. Your comprehension of basic English are terrible.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 8:22 PM, Tom Brennan 
 wrote:

Oh that's funny!  Then what are these notes from you I found in my trash 
folder?  Sounds like you were sure it would assemble and run perfectly, 
and also be able to take over someone's job today.

  Why do you doubt it? Is it because you hope it doesn’t? Certainly, one
  of you assembler geniuses could test it.

  Lol, how about going to chatgpt and asking the same question. So that
  cut and paste isn’t a factor.

  What are you afraid of? That a computer can do what you do? That your
  “skills” aren’t all that impressive and can be automated away?

On 9/5/2023 4:47 PM, Bill Johnson wrote:
> I never presented it as a working model.

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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

Here’s a prime example Bernd. Dummy Dave always likes his superior cut downs. 
Thinks he’s intelligent.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 8:39 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Tom,
+1
You forget that it took Bill and 2 colleagues to modify IEFUSI.

Regards,
David

On 2023-09-05 20:21, Tom Brennan wrote:
> Oh that's funny!  Then what are these notes from you I found in my 
> trash folder?  Sounds like you were sure it would assemble and run 
> perfectly, and also be able to take over someone's job today.
>
>   Why do you doubt it? Is it because you hope it doesn’t? Certainly, one
>   of you assembler geniuses could test it.
>
>   Lol, how about going to chatgpt and asking the same question. So that
>   cut and paste isn’t a factor.
>
>   What are you afraid of? That a computer can do what you do? That your
>   “skills” aren’t all that impressive and can be automated away?
>
> On 9/5/2023 4:47 PM, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> I never presented it as a working model.
>
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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

As always happens here. I am attacked and disrespected. Then when I respond in 
kind, your cult feigns innocence. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 8:19 PM, Bernd Oppolzer 
 wrote:

I told you "I try to answer respectfully" ...
doesn't work always, especially if I am called an idiot in the very same 
mail that I am answering to.

Kind regards

Bernd


Am 06.09.2023 um 01:53 schrieb Bill Johnson:
> If you consider this respectful, there’s something wrong with you.
>
> “So your JCL expertise qualifies you as a systems programmer ... that's
> interesting.”
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>

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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

If you consider this respectful, there’s something wrong with you. 

“So your JCL expertise qualifies you as a systems programmer ... that's 
interesting.”


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 7:36 PM, Bernd Oppolzer 
 wrote:

I am not bashing it. I am simply telling you that it has a bunch of 
errors and it will not work.

It's kind of interesting to me that, while I try to answer repectfully 
to your mails,
almost every answer from you contains the word "idiot" or "idiotic",
which is the same in German, so I understand that well.
Is that a specific way to support your arguments?


Am 06.09.2023 um 01:31 schrieb Bill Johnson:
> I find it stunning the technology people are trying to hang onto the past 
> (assembler) and bashing the future. (ChatGPT) Or perhaps that’s what aging 
> people do.
>
>
>

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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

No, but someone who extrapolates my JCL expertise as my only expertise deserves 
that response. Or perhaps dummkopf. Yes, I have 3 years of German, which served 
me well in Munich, Regensburg, Austria, & Switzerland. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 7:36 PM, Bernd Oppolzer 
 wrote:

I am not bashing it. I am simply telling you that it has a bunch of 
errors and it will not work.

It's kind of interesting to me that, while I try to answer repectfully 
to your mails,
almost every answer from you contains the word "idiot" or "idiotic",
which is the same in German, so I understand that well.
Is that a specific way to support your arguments?


Am 06.09.2023 um 01:31 schrieb Bill Johnson:
> I find it stunning the technology people are trying to hang onto the past 
> (assembler) and bashing the future. (ChatGPT) Or perhaps that’s what aging 
> people do.
>
>
>

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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

I never presented it as a working model.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 7:36 PM, Bernd Oppolzer 
 wrote:

I am not bashing it. I am simply telling you that it has a bunch of 
errors and it will not work.

It's kind of interesting to me that, while I try to answer repectfully 
to your mails,
almost every answer from you contains the word "idiot" or "idiotic",
which is the same in German, so I understand that well.
Is that a specific way to support your arguments?


Am 06.09.2023 um 01:31 schrieb Bill Johnson:
> I find it stunning the technology people are trying to hang onto the past 
> (assembler) and bashing the future. (ChatGPT) Or perhaps that’s what aging 
> people do.
>
>
>

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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

I find it stunning the technology people are trying to hang onto the past 
(assembler) and bashing the future. (ChatGPT) Or perhaps that’s what aging 
people do.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 7:04 PM, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

You people are idiots. Chatgpt just came out. Nobody, including me, said it was 
going to replace you today, or tomorrow. But, it will replace you.

Autonomous vehicles are coming too. In fact, they are already on the road. 
Perfect? Not yet. But getting closer daily.

Flying cars are a few decades away. Although flying taxis are closer than you 
think. 

https://www.npr.org/2023/07/01/1185060325/joby-electric-flying-taxi




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 6:52 PM, Bernd Oppolzer 
 wrote:

It will not work, because almost every single instruction has an error 
or two.
Every programmer with a little bit ASSMBLER experience can see this;
this ChatGPT program has no grasp of instruction formats, DCBs or the 
proper
use of I/O macros. I will not go into the details here ... the ASSEMBLER 
people know
what I'm talking about, and the others are not interested.

Kind regards

Bernd


Am 05.09.2023 um 18:00 schrieb Bill Johnson:
> Why do you doubt it? Is it because you hope it doesn’t? Certainly, one of you 
> assembler geniuses could test it.
>
> Like Mullins said, and others mentioned, most companies that run z/OS don’t 
> need assembler programmers. That numbers in the thousands if not ten 
> thousand. Whereas ISV’s who are the likely users of Assembler programming, 
> number in the hundreds, maybe. So install on Systems Programmers.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 11:43 AM, Steve Thompson  
> wrote:
>
> I doubt it will assemble. And even if it does, the results are
> unpredictable, other than it will probably ABEND for one reason
> or another.
>
> There are no DCB, OPEN, CLOSE macros while GET and PUT are being
> used.
>
> Me thinks this AI system is confusing a few different assembly
> languages together. I wonder how close they came for DOS I/O.
> Steve Thompson
>
>
>
> On 9/5/2023 11:20 AM, Tom Marchant wrote:
>> You're right, Tom. That is not a program. Certainly not one that will do 
>> what it claims to do.
>>
>> -- Tom Marchant On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 10:42:51 -0700, Tom Brennan
>>  wrote:
>>> I can't be sure I formatted it properly, but after looking over the
>>> code, I have nothing to say but WTF? 
>>>
>>>            PRINT NOGEN
>>>            TITLE 'Simple Addition Program'
>>> ** Define storage for input numbers and result
>>> *
>>> NUM1    DS    F            First input number
>>> NUM2    DS    F            Second input number
>>> RESULT  DS    F            Result of addition
>>> ** Main program
>>> *
>>> MAIN    C      0        NUM1  Check if NUM1 is zero
>>>            BE    ZERO            Branch to ZERO if true
>>> ** Read the first number from input
>>> *
>>>            GET    NUM1,NUMIN      Read NUM1 from input
>>>            LA    0,NUM1          Load NUM1 into register
>>> ** Read the second number from input
>>> *
>>>            GET    NUM2,NUMIN      Read NUM2 from input
>>>            A      NUM1,NUM2      Add NUM1 and NUM2
>>>            ST    NUM1,RESULT    Store the result in RESULT
>>> ** Print the result
>>> *
>>>            PUT    RESULT,NUMOUT  Print the result
>>> ** Terminate the program
>>> *
>>>            SR    15,15          Set return code to 0
>>>            BR    14              Return to caller
>>> ** Define input and output areas
>>> *
>>> NUMIN    DC    F'0'          Input buffer for numbers
>>> NUMOUT  DC    F'0'          Output buffer for result
>>> ZERO    DC    F'0'          Constant zero
>>>            END  MAIN            End of program
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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

You people are idiots. Chatgpt just came out. Nobody, including me, said it was 
going to replace you today, or tomorrow. But, it will replace you.

Autonomous vehicles are coming too. In fact, they are already on the road. 
Perfect? Not yet. But getting closer daily.

Flying cars are a few decades away. Although flying taxis are closer than you 
think. 

https://www.npr.org/2023/07/01/1185060325/joby-electric-flying-taxi




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 6:52 PM, Bernd Oppolzer 
 wrote:

It will not work, because almost every single instruction has an error 
or two.
Every programmer with a little bit ASSMBLER experience can see this;
this ChatGPT program has no grasp of instruction formats, DCBs or the 
proper
use of I/O macros. I will not go into the details here ... the ASSEMBLER 
people know
what I'm talking about, and the others are not interested.

Kind regards

Bernd


Am 05.09.2023 um 18:00 schrieb Bill Johnson:
> Why do you doubt it? Is it because you hope it doesn’t? Certainly, one of you 
> assembler geniuses could test it.
>
> Like Mullins said, and others mentioned, most companies that run z/OS don’t 
> need assembler programmers. That numbers in the thousands if not ten 
> thousand. Whereas ISV’s who are the likely users of Assembler programming, 
> number in the hundreds, maybe. So install on Systems Programmers.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 11:43 AM, Steve Thompson  
> wrote:
>
> I doubt it will assemble. And even if it does, the results are
> unpredictable, other than it will probably ABEND for one reason
> or another.
>
> There are no DCB, OPEN, CLOSE macros while GET and PUT are being
> used.
>
> Me thinks this AI system is confusing a few different assembly
> languages together. I wonder how close they came for DOS I/O.
> Steve Thompson
>
>
>
> On 9/5/2023 11:20 AM, Tom Marchant wrote:
>> You're right, Tom. That is not a program. Certainly not one that will do 
>> what it claims to do.
>>
>> -- Tom Marchant On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 10:42:51 -0700, Tom Brennan
>>  wrote:
>>> I can't be sure I formatted it properly, but after looking over the
>>> code, I have nothing to say but WTF? 
>>>
>>>            PRINT NOGEN
>>>            TITLE 'Simple Addition Program'
>>> ** Define storage for input numbers and result
>>> *
>>> NUM1    DS    F            First input number
>>> NUM2    DS    F            Second input number
>>> RESULT  DS    F            Result of addition
>>> ** Main program
>>> *
>>> MAIN    C      0        NUM1  Check if NUM1 is zero
>>>            BE    ZERO            Branch to ZERO if true
>>> ** Read the first number from input
>>> *
>>>            GET    NUM1,NUMIN      Read NUM1 from input
>>>            LA    0,NUM1          Load NUM1 into register
>>> ** Read the second number from input
>>> *
>>>            GET    NUM2,NUMIN      Read NUM2 from input
>>>            A      NUM1,NUM2      Add NUM1 and NUM2
>>>            ST    NUM1,RESULT    Store the result in RESULT
>>> ** Print the result
>>> *
>>>            PUT    RESULT,NUMOUT  Print the result
>>> ** Terminate the program
>>> *
>>>            SR    15,15          Set return code to 0
>>>            BR    14              Return to caller
>>> ** Define input and output areas
>>> *
>>> NUMIN    DC    F'0'          Input buffer for numbers
>>> NUMOUT  DC    F'0'          Output buffer for result
>>> ZERO    DC    F'0'          Constant zero
>>>            END  MAIN            End of program
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Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive

[Bill Johnson]

Offering? To me it sounds like there’s no demand or there would actually be 
classes available to select as we write. There’s really nothing scheduled and 
likely won’t be. Because there’s no demand.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 6:38 PM, Bernd Oppolzer 
 wrote:

I offer training classes,
Steve Thompson does.

If a company really wants ASSEMBLER training, they can find it here.


Am 04.09.2023 um 22:35 schrieb Bill Johnson:
> I love how many of you downplay others who don’t do what you do. And act like 
> it’s inferior. Plus, puff yourselves up simply for programming in Assembler. 
> I made a boatload of money in 40+ years performing nearly every task on the 
> mainframe. I can also code in Assembler, just never needed to. Assembler is 
> still dying, as the Assembler listserv attests. Plus, the fact it’s nearly 
> impossible to find a company that offers training classes in it.
>
>

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Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive

[Bill Johnson]

Sprechen Sie Englische? I never said any such thing. I’m an expert in many IT 
things. But, more a jack of all IT things with an ability to pick up things 
rapidly. And I’ve done everything. Operations, programming, DB2 DBA, DASD 
Admin, consulting, Ops Manager, z/OS “installer”, third party software 
expertise, MQ Admin, IMS DB/DC programming, others. JCL is just one area.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 6:35 PM, Bernd Oppolzer 
 wrote:

So your JCL expertise qualifies you as a systems programmer ... that's 
interesting.

Am 04.09.2023 um 17:57 schrieb Bill Johnson:
> To claim people who don’t code assembler or read dumps aren’t systems 
> programmers is idiotic.
>
> ...
>
> I learned zero JCL in college. I learned and became an expert at EDS. But, 
> college gave me the wherewithal to know how to study and succeed.
>

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Re: Ray Mullins on Assembler demand.

[Bill Johnson]

I agree with Matt that Ray is the man. Exactly why his response was used. And 
he is correct that assembler has become a niche product. Which is exactly what 
I’ve seen for most of my 40+ year career. A slow steady decline.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 1:17 PM, M. Ray Mullins 
 wrote:

Thank you, Matt. I'm humbled. I keep forgetting how long ago that was.

For context - this response was to a specific question regarding 
learning assembler. Basic assembler programming knowledge is a good 
thing to have on your resume, because it gives you the insights to how 
programs work on the platform.

A "cheap" way to learn some assembler basics is to turn on the LIST 
options for the COBOL, C/C++, PL/I, and FORTRAN compilers. You can see 
how language statements get converted to the machine instructions. It's 
very helpful in understanding how COBOL deals with MOVEs with mixed 
USAGE and computational verbs with different USAGE and PIC clauses.

On 2023-09-05 09:37, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
> FWIW, I’ve known Ray for as long as I’ve been programming in Assembler.
> Ray is the man.
>
>
>>> You guys know who Ray Mullins is right?
>>>
>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>>
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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

Dave always thinks his ideas are “better”. The sign of a narcissist and if you 
ever interview with or work for this type, get a new job.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 12:25 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
I have a better idea.
Why don't you and the 2 buddies who helped you modify the IEFUSI fix it?
Probably because you don't have the wherewithal (even with 2 helpers).

Regards,
David

On 2023-09-05 12:04, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Lol, how about going to chatgpt and asking the same question. So that cut and 
> paste isn’t a factor.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 12:02 PM, David Spiegel 
> <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
> It won't. The first executable statement is missing a comma between
> operands.
>
> Regards,
> David
>
> On 2023-09-05 11:43, Steve Thompson wrote:
>> I doubt it will assemble. And even if it does, the results are
>> unpredictable, other than it will probably ABEND for one reason or
>> another.
>>
>> There are no DCB, OPEN, CLOSE macros while GET and PUT are being used.
>>
>> Me thinks this AI system is confusing a few different assembly
>> languages together. I wonder how close they came for DOS I/O.
>> Steve Thompson
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/5/2023 11:20 AM, Tom Marchant wrote:
>>> You're right, Tom. That is not a program. Certainly not one that will
>>> do what it claims to do.
>>>
>>> -- Tom Marchant On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 10:42:51 -0700, Tom Brennan
>>>  wrote:
>>>> I can't be sure I formatted it properly, but after looking over the
>>>> code, I have nothing to say but WTF? 
>>>>
>>>>    PRINT NOGEN
>>>>    TITLE 'Simple Addition Program'
>>>> ** Define storage for input numbers and result
>>>> *
>>>> NUM1 DS    F First input number
>>>> NUM2 DS    F Second input number
>>>> RESULT   DS    F Result of addition
>>>> ** Main program
>>>> *
>>>> MAIN C  0    NUM1   Check if NUM1 is zero
>>>>    BE ZERO    Branch to ZERO if true
>>>> ** Read the first number from input
>>>> *
>>>>    GET    NUM1,NUMIN  Read NUM1 from input
>>>>    LA 0,NUM1  Load NUM1 into register
>>>> ** Read the second number from input
>>>> *
>>>>    GET    NUM2,NUMIN  Read NUM2 from input
>>>>    A  NUM1,NUM2   Add NUM1 and NUM2
>>>>    ST NUM1,RESULT Store the result in RESULT
>>>> ** Print the result
>>>> *
>>>>    PUT    RESULT,NUMOUT   Print the result
>>>> ** Terminate the program
>>>> *
>>>>    SR 15,15   Set return code to 0
>>>>    BR 14  Return to caller
>>>> ** Define input and output areas
>>>> *
>>>> NUMIN    DC    F'0'   Input buffer for numbers
>>>> NUMOUT   DC    F'0'   Output buffer for result
>>>> ZERO DC    F'0'   Constant zero
>>>>    END   MAIN    End of program
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Re: Ray Mullins on Assembler demand.

[Bill Johnson]

Metal C, exactly what Mullins said is replacing assembler. In the end, my 
contention in the beginning is proving truer by the day. And you’re right, 
assembler isn’t that hard to learn and not hard to replace,


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 12:36 PM, Matt Hogstrom  
wrote:

My take is that Assembler is just a language and honestly I don’t think its
all that hard to learn.  What it does require is more understanding of the
OS and the ability to setup for calls to other services.

The higher languages simply obscure, or encapsulate, those low level
services.

I use Metal C for new code as it is more easily understood by developers.
That said, there are times for pure assembler code and I enjoy it.  I
started out as a batch assembler programmer but I was drawn to understand
the OS and its structure.  Assembler was the way to interface and now there
are other options.

As an ISV we want Assembler programmers.  In a business, I’d focus on the
languages that the market understands.  The important thing is to not be
religious about a language.  Its just a tool.

On Tue, Sep 5, 2023 at 08:22 David Elliot  wrote:

> Very little from what I see. What little
>  there is is stupid stuff like reverse engineering code so that the client
> can rewrite it in JAVA or whatever the language of the day is.
>

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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

We are all retired. The other 2 went before me. I went in July 2022. You’re an 
idiot regardless. What are you afraid of? That a computer can do what you do? 
That your “skills” aren’t all that impressive and can be automated away?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 12:25 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
I have a better idea.
Why don't you and the 2 buddies who helped you modify the IEFUSI fix it?
Probably because you don't have the wherewithal (even with 2 helpers).

Regards,
David

On 2023-09-05 12:04, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Lol, how about going to chatgpt and asking the same question. So that cut and 
> paste isn’t a factor.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 12:02 PM, David Spiegel 
> <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
> It won't. The first executable statement is missing a comma between
> operands.
>
> Regards,
> David
>
> On 2023-09-05 11:43, Steve Thompson wrote:
>> I doubt it will assemble. And even if it does, the results are
>> unpredictable, other than it will probably ABEND for one reason or
>> another.
>>
>> There are no DCB, OPEN, CLOSE macros while GET and PUT are being used.
>>
>> Me thinks this AI system is confusing a few different assembly
>> languages together. I wonder how close they came for DOS I/O.
>> Steve Thompson
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/5/2023 11:20 AM, Tom Marchant wrote:
>>> You're right, Tom. That is not a program. Certainly not one that will
>>> do what it claims to do.
>>>
>>> -- Tom Marchant On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 10:42:51 -0700, Tom Brennan
>>>  wrote:
>>>> I can't be sure I formatted it properly, but after looking over the
>>>> code, I have nothing to say but WTF? 
>>>>
>>>>    PRINT NOGEN
>>>>    TITLE 'Simple Addition Program'
>>>> ** Define storage for input numbers and result
>>>> *
>>>> NUM1 DS    F First input number
>>>> NUM2 DS    F Second input number
>>>> RESULT   DS    F Result of addition
>>>> ** Main program
>>>> *
>>>> MAIN C  0    NUM1   Check if NUM1 is zero
>>>>    BE ZERO    Branch to ZERO if true
>>>> ** Read the first number from input
>>>> *
>>>>    GET    NUM1,NUMIN  Read NUM1 from input
>>>>    LA 0,NUM1  Load NUM1 into register
>>>> ** Read the second number from input
>>>> *
>>>>    GET    NUM2,NUMIN  Read NUM2 from input
>>>>    A  NUM1,NUM2   Add NUM1 and NUM2
>>>>    ST NUM1,RESULT Store the result in RESULT
>>>> ** Print the result
>>>> *
>>>>    PUT    RESULT,NUMOUT   Print the result
>>>> ** Terminate the program
>>>> *
>>>>    SR 15,15   Set return code to 0
>>>>    BR 14  Return to caller
>>>> ** Define input and output areas
>>>> *
>>>> NUMIN    DC    F'0'   Input buffer for numbers
>>>> NUMOUT   DC    F'0'   Output buffer for result
>>>> ZERO DC    F'0'   Constant zero
>>>>    END   MAIN    End of program
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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

Lol, how about going to chatgpt and asking the same question. So that cut and 
paste isn’t a factor.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 12:02 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Steve,
It won't. The first executable statement is missing a comma between 
operands.

Regards,
David

On 2023-09-05 11:43, Steve Thompson wrote:
> I doubt it will assemble. And even if it does, the results are 
> unpredictable, other than it will probably ABEND for one reason or 
> another.
>
> There are no DCB, OPEN, CLOSE macros while GET and PUT are being used.
>
> Me thinks this AI system is confusing a few different assembly 
> languages together. I wonder how close they came for DOS I/O.
> Steve Thompson
>
>
>
> On 9/5/2023 11:20 AM, Tom Marchant wrote:
>> You're right, Tom. That is not a program. Certainly not one that will 
>> do what it claims to do.
>>
>> -- Tom Marchant On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 10:42:51 -0700, Tom Brennan 
>>  wrote:
>>> I can't be sure I formatted it properly, but after looking over the
>>> code, I have nothing to say but WTF? 
>>>
>>>   PRINT NOGEN
>>>   TITLE 'Simple Addition Program'
>>> ** Define storage for input numbers and result
>>> *
>>> NUM1 DS    F First input number
>>> NUM2 DS    F Second input number
>>> RESULT   DS    F Result of addition
>>> ** Main program
>>> *
>>> MAIN C  0    NUM1   Check if NUM1 is zero
>>>   BE ZERO    Branch to ZERO if true
>>> ** Read the first number from input
>>> *
>>>   GET    NUM1,NUMIN  Read NUM1 from input
>>>   LA 0,NUM1  Load NUM1 into register
>>> ** Read the second number from input
>>> *
>>>   GET    NUM2,NUMIN  Read NUM2 from input
>>>   A  NUM1,NUM2   Add NUM1 and NUM2
>>>   ST NUM1,RESULT Store the result in RESULT
>>> ** Print the result
>>> *
>>>   PUT    RESULT,NUMOUT   Print the result
>>> ** Terminate the program
>>> *
>>>   SR 15,15   Set return code to 0
>>>   BR 14  Return to caller
>>> ** Define input and output areas
>>> *
>>> NUMIN    DC    F'0'   Input buffer for numbers
>>> NUMOUT   DC    F'0'   Output buffer for result
>>> ZERO DC    F'0'   Constant zero
>>>   END   MAIN    End of program
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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

Why do you doubt it? Is it because you hope it doesn’t? Certainly, one of you 
assembler geniuses could test it.

Like Mullins said, and others mentioned, most companies that run z/OS don’t 
need assembler programmers. That numbers in the thousands if not ten thousand. 
Whereas ISV’s who are the likely users of Assembler programming, number in the 
hundreds, maybe. So install on Systems Programmers. 


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On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 11:43 AM, Steve Thompson  wrote:

I doubt it will assemble. And even if it does, the results are 
unpredictable, other than it will probably ABEND for one reason 
or another.

There are no DCB, OPEN, CLOSE macros while GET and PUT are being 
used.

Me thinks this AI system is confusing a few different assembly 
languages together. I wonder how close they came for DOS I/O.
Steve Thompson



On 9/5/2023 11:20 AM, Tom Marchant wrote:
> You're right, Tom. That is not a program. Certainly not one that will do what 
> it claims to do.
>
> -- Tom Marchant On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 10:42:51 -0700, Tom Brennan 
>  wrote:
>> I can't be sure I formatted it properly, but after looking over the
>> code, I have nothing to say but WTF? 
>>
>>          PRINT NOGEN
>>          TITLE 'Simple Addition Program'
>> ** Define storage for input numbers and result
>> *
>> NUM1    DS    F            First input number
>> NUM2    DS    F            Second input number
>> RESULT  DS    F            Result of addition
>> ** Main program
>> *
>> MAIN    C      0        NUM1  Check if NUM1 is zero
>>          BE    ZERO            Branch to ZERO if true
>> ** Read the first number from input
>> *
>>          GET    NUM1,NUMIN      Read NUM1 from input
>>          LA    0,NUM1          Load NUM1 into register
>> ** Read the second number from input
>> *
>>          GET    NUM2,NUMIN      Read NUM2 from input
>>          A      NUM1,NUM2      Add NUM1 and NUM2
>>          ST    NUM1,RESULT    Store the result in RESULT
>> ** Print the result
>> *
>>          PUT    RESULT,NUMOUT  Print the result
>> ** Terminate the program
>> *
>>          SR    15,15          Set return code to 0
>>          BR    14              Return to caller
>> ** Define input and output areas
>> *
>> NUMIN    DC    F'0'          Input buffer for numbers
>> NUMOUT  DC    F'0'          Output buffer for result
>> ZERO    DC    F'0'          Constant zero
>>          END  MAIN            End of program
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Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive

[Bill Johnson]

Agree completely.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 9:59 AM, Doug Fuerst  
wrote:

I also think that what many of us seem to forget is that skills need to 
be used to stay sharp and to learn new things in that field.
If you are not doing Assembler a fair amount of time, the skill dulls. 
Some of the worse assembler I have ever seen was written by people who 
had not written it in a few years, and often I had to deal with systems 
heavily modded because somebody "loved" coding in assembler. And sadly 
the code was not really much better.
The same goes for dump reading, performance issues like WLM, or really 
anything.
This is a case where specialization is preferred, but my guess is most 
of us are generalists, and simply do not have the time or resources to 
become experts in every part of MVS there is (excuse me z/OS and the are 
ALOT of parts.)

Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
>From "Brian Westerman" 
To IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date 9/5/2023 6:32:27 AM
Subject Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive

>Equating college and systems programming is not really logical.  I'm not aware 
>of any colleges that "teach" how to be a systems programmer.  I think some may 
>have tried, but I doubt it would be a big draw.
>
>I have a PhD, but I didn't learn to write assembler in college, at least not 
>any that would be usable as a systems programmer.
>
>I don't think everyone needs to learn how to read dumps or write assembler to 
>be a systems administrator, but to be a systems programmer is seems very 
>practical.  I can't imagine working with an operating system for a large 
>number of years without being able to read or write the code it's generated 
>with.
>
>But that's just my opinion, I'm sure there are people who consider themselves 
>to be systems programmers that don't have any knowledge of assembler or know 
>how to read a dump, or know how to use SMP/e very well or understand ACS 
>coding or writing REXX or understanding the ins and outs of WLM.  My personal 
>opinion is that it would give me an ulcer to not know what I was doing.
>
>Brian
>
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Re: Ray Mullins on Assembler demand.

[Bill Johnson]

It’s a lot easier finding JAVA developers than Assembler programmers. And will 
only get harder over time.


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On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 10:37 AM, David Elliot  
wrote:

I was recently contacted by one company who was starting a project to throw
out thousands of assembler language programs and replace them with JAVA
code all with the aim of modernising his mainframe. The interview went
badly when I asked why he thought he had to discard years of development
which had kept his business going all in the name of modernization.

On Tue, Sep 5, 2023, 7:27 AM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Must have missed this.
>
>
> > I'll be honest - it's getting smaller and smaller. It's become a niche,
> > mainly for system tools ISVs. Metal C is where the invisible hand of IBM
> is
> > pushing the industry.
>
> And Ray is one of the most respected in the field.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 10:22 AM, David Elliot <
> star2015...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Very little from what I see. What little
>  there is is stupid stuff like reverse engineering code so that the client
> can rewrite it in JAVA or whatever the language of the day is.
>
> On Tue, Sep 5, 2023, 6:48 AM Bill Johnson <
> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> > How much demand is there for IBM mainframe Assembler programmers?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Ray Mullin said this:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I'll be honest - it's getting smaller and smaller. It's become a niche,
> > mainly for system tools ISVs. Metal C is where the invisible hand of IBM
> is
> > pushing the industry.
> >
> > Having said that…
> >
> > There is a benefit to learning assembler, or more specifically, the
> > z/Architecture instruction set. You learn how the instructions work, and
> by
> > reading the 1500+ page Principles of Operation (or, if you don't want
> that
> > much reading, the General Instructions and Decimal Instructions chapters,
> > plus some of the first 6 others), you can design efficient 3GL programs.
> In
> > addition, use the LIST option of compilers to see the generated
> > instructions. Through this, you can self-optimize and create efficient
> > code, code that performs, and can save precious CPU and wall clock time.
> >
> > Look at the z390 emulator. This allows you to play with it on your own
> > time on your own machine.
> >
> >
> > You guys know who Ray Mullins is right?
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> > --
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> >
>
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Re: Ray Mullins on Assembler demand.

[Bill Johnson]

Must have missed this.


> I'll be honest - it's getting smaller and smaller. It's become a niche,
> mainly for system tools ISVs. Metal C is where the invisible hand of IBM is
> pushing the industry.

And Ray is one of the most respected in the field.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 10:22 AM, David Elliot  
wrote:

Very little from what I see. What little
 there is is stupid stuff like reverse engineering code so that the client
can rewrite it in JAVA or whatever the language of the day is.

On Tue, Sep 5, 2023, 6:48 AM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> How much demand is there for IBM mainframe Assembler programmers?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ray Mullin said this:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I'll be honest - it's getting smaller and smaller. It's become a niche,
> mainly for system tools ISVs. Metal C is where the invisible hand of IBM is
> pushing the industry.
>
> Having said that…
>
> There is a benefit to learning assembler, or more specifically, the
> z/Architecture instruction set. You learn how the instructions work, and by
> reading the 1500+ page Principles of Operation (or, if you don't want that
> much reading, the General Instructions and Decimal Instructions chapters,
> plus some of the first 6 others), you can design efficient 3GL programs. In
> addition, use the LIST option of compilers to see the generated
> instructions. Through this, you can self-optimize and create efficient
> code, code that performs, and can save precious CPU and wall clock time.
>
> Look at the z390 emulator. This allows you to play with it on your own
> time on your own machine.
>
>
> You guys know who Ray Mullins is right?
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
> --
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Ray Mullins on Assembler demand.

[Bill Johnson]

How much demand is there for IBM mainframe Assembler programmers?







Ray Mullin said this:







I'll be honest - it's getting smaller and smaller. It's become a niche, mainly 
for system tools ISVs. Metal C is where the invisible hand of IBM is pushing 
the industry.

Having said that…

There is a benefit to learning assembler, or more specifically, the 
z/Architecture instruction set. You learn how the instructions work, and by 
reading the 1500+ page Principles of Operation (or, if you don't want that much 
reading, the General Instructions and Decimal Instructions chapters, plus some 
of the first 6 others), you can design efficient 3GL programs. In addition, use 
the LIST option of compilers to see the generated instructions. Through this, 
you can self-optimize and create efficient code, code that performs, and can 
save precious CPU and wall clock time.

Look at the z390 emulator. This allows you to play with it on your own time on 
your own machine.


You guys know who Ray Mullins is right? 

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

Interesting 




Automation and technology replacing jobs has long been a conversation in 
Nevada's most populated city. Studies show that between 38% to 65% of jobs 
there could be automated by 2035.




I’m betting the high end.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, September 4, 2023, 11:23 PM, August Carideo 
 wrote:

https://apple.news/AixoP4CtmQXe5nrEq1l8bCw
Interesting article about AI
Idk how many open link

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Tom 
Brennan 
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2023 4:48:22 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

I just moved the cursor to where I thought a line should end and pushed
Return.

On 9/4/2023 11:04 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 10:42:51 -0700, Tom Brennan wrote:
>
>> I can't be sure I formatted it properly, ...
>>
> What did you do to fix it?  (List the steps, or did you just retype t?)
>
> Could ChatGPT be instructed to use line breaks and eschew NBSP?
>
>> but after looking over the
>> code, I have nothing to say but WTF? :)
>>
>>          PRINT NOGEN
>>          TITLE 'Simple Addition Program'
>> ** Define storage for input numbers and result
>> *
> Reminds me of a certain physicist's first FORTRAN program.
>
> ChatGPT needs to peruse a QSAM tutorial.
> Could it produce a reentrant version?
> Does it remember in case you ask for a refinement?
>
>> NUM1    DS    F            First input number
>> NUM2    DS    F            Second input number
>> RESULT  DS    F            Result of addition
>> ** Main program
>> *
>> MAIN    C      0        NUM1  Check if NUM1 is zero
>>          BE    ZERO            Branch to ZERO if true
>> ** Read the first number from input
>> *
>>          GET    NUM1,NUMIN      Read NUM1 from input
>>          LA    0,NUM1          Load NUM1 into register
>> ** Read the second number from input
>> *
>>          GET    NUM2,NUMIN      Read NUM2 from input
>>          A      NUM1,NUM2      Add NUM1 and NUM2
>>          ST    NUM1,RESULT    Store the result in RESULT
>> ** Print the result
>> *
>>          PUT    RESULT,NUMOUT  Print the result
>> ** Terminate the program
>> *
>>          SR    15,15          Set return code to 0
>>          BR    14              Return to caller
>> ** Define input and output areas
>> *
>> NUMIN    DC    F'0'          Input buffer for numbers
>> NUMOUT  DC    F'0'          Output buffer for result
>> ZERO    DC    F'0'          Constant zero
>>          END  MAIN            End of program
>>
>> On 9/4/2023 9:57 AM, Paul Gilmartinrwrote:
>>> On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 16:36:14 +, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>> William:
>>>>
>>>> Write me an assembler program using high-level assembler for the mainframe.
>>>>
>>> Fix your damn mailer, or throw it away and get one that works!
>>>
>>> In particular, do not use NBSP to format code samples.
>>>
>>>> Chatgpt:
>>>>
>>>> Certainly! Here’s a simple example of a mainframe assembly program written 
>>>> in High-Level Assembler (HLASM) that reads two numbers from input and 
>>>> prints their sum:
>>>>            PRINT NOGEN        TITLE 'Simple Addition Program'** Define 
>>>>storage for input numbers and result*NUM1    DS    F            First input 
>>>>numberNUM2    DS    F            Second input numberRESULT  DS    F         
>>>>   Result of addition** Main program*MAIN    C      0      NUM1  Check if 
>>>>NUM1 is zero        BE    ZERO            Branch to ZERO if true** Read the 
>>>>first number from input*        GET    NUM1,NUMIN      Read NUM1 from input 
>>>>       LA    0,NUM1          Load NUM1 into register** Read the second 
>>>>number from input*        GET    NUM2,NUMIN      Read NUM2 from input       
>>>> A      NUM1,NUM2      Add NUM1 and NUM2        ST    NUM1,RESULT    Store 
>>>>the result in RESULT** Print the result*        PUT    RESULT,NUMOUT  Print 
>>>>the result** Terminate the program*        SR    15,15          Set return 
>>>>code to 0        BR    14              Return to caller** Define input and 
>>>>output areas*NUMIN    DC    F'0'          Input buffer for numbersNUMOUT  
>>>>DC    F'0'          Output buffer for resultZERO    DC    F'0'          
>>>>Constant zero        END  MAIN            En

Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive

[Bill Johnson]

I’ve been to at least 10 Shares over the years. Also CA Worlds, OPM 
conferences, & IBM systems tech universitys. Lots of idiotic presentations at 
Share. Lots of good ones as well. Like Quackenbush’s SMPE, wait SMP/E, Roger 
Miller DB2 sessions, and some others. Remember the Rod Stewart freebie about 10 
years ago in Vegas? What crappy software was Gabe trying to sell there?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:49 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

He is better known for his contributions to SHARE.. What have you contributed?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2023 4:46 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive

lol better known! That’s the goal of these cult members. Not talented, not 
educated, but better known. That’s why you join LinkedIn too. To be known and 
to network. You were unemployed for a long period of time. Because you had a 
signature line asking for a job. Begging really. Something I’ve never had to do.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:40 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

Nonsense. I have an MA in Mathematics, and I would never accept a degree as a 
proof of competency. Gabe has long since earned his chops, and is certainly 
better known in the industry than you are.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2023 4:18 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive

I’ve listed my skills and jobs here. Worked for numerous companies, some rather 
large, (GM, Revco, Parker Hannifin, Kaiser Permanente, Kent State, Phar Mor, 
Mellon Bank, First Energy, American Electric Power, Alltel, Medical Mutual of 
Ohio, Microfocus, and others. I can tell you’re not a college grad. Because you 
downplay what you lack. And try so hard to puff yourself up as well as others 
who couldn’t hack college.


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On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:11 PM, g...@gabegold.com  
wrote:

That's correctly spelled z/OS. Even beginning system programmers should know 
that.

Degrees are often most relevant to people who rely on them for credibility, vs. 
having actual qualifications and experience.

"Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer of zOS" shows profound 
ignorance of what system programming actually entails: making effective 
business-related use of what IBM and other vendors provide. Not just installing 
-- that's a poor excuse for what system programming has been for decades. It's 
too bad that in your decades of IT work at those dozens of jobs (so many, such 
short tenures?) you never encountered the real thing.

Your attitude towards a skill you don't posses is fascinating. Seems a lot like 
sour grapes:

refers to an attitude in which someone adopts a negative attitude to something 
because they cannot have it themselves.

Have you felt inadequate seeing assembler code you couldn't understand on the 
list?

Perhaps cheer yourself up by reading some comfortable JCL, or utility control 
statements. And set some nice variables to feel better.

On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 00:06:16 +, Bill Johnson  wrote:

>Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, you’re 
>likely an installer of zOS.

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Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive

[Bill Johnson]

lol better known! That’s the goal of these cult members. Not talented, not 
educated, but better known. That’s why you join LinkedIn too. To be known and 
to network. You were unemployed for a long period of time. Because you had a 
signature line asking for a job. Begging really. Something I’ve never had to do.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:40 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

Nonsense. I have an MA in Mathematics, and I would never accept a degree as a 
proof of competency. Gabe has long since earned his chops, and is certainly 
better known in the industry than you are.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2023 4:18 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive

I’ve listed my skills and jobs here. Worked for numerous companies, some rather 
large, (GM, Revco, Parker Hannifin, Kaiser Permanente, Kent State, Phar Mor, 
Mellon Bank, First Energy, American Electric Power, Alltel, Medical Mutual of 
Ohio, Microfocus, and others. I can tell you’re not a college grad. Because you 
downplay what you lack. And try so hard to puff yourself up as well as others 
who couldn’t hack college.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:11 PM, g...@gabegold.com  
wrote:

That's correctly spelled z/OS. Even beginning system programmers should know 
that.

Degrees are often most relevant to people who rely on them for credibility, vs. 
having actual qualifications and experience.

"Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer of zOS" shows profound 
ignorance of what system programming actually entails: making effective 
business-related use of what IBM and other vendors provide. Not just installing 
-- that's a poor excuse for what system programming has been for decades. It's 
too bad that in your decades of IT work at those dozens of jobs (so many, such 
short tenures?) you never encountered the real thing.

Your attitude towards a skill you don't posses is fascinating. Seems a lot like 
sour grapes:

refers to an attitude in which someone adopts a negative attitude to something 
because they cannot have it themselves.

Have you felt inadequate seeing assembler code you couldn't understand on the 
list?

Perhaps cheer yourself up by reading some comfortable JCL, or utility control 
statements. And set some nice variables to feel better.

On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 00:06:16 +0000, Bill Johnson  wrote:

>Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, you’re 
>likely an installer of zOS.

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Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive

[Bill Johnson]

I’m not a narcissist. I don’t need to post my resume there. (Many are 
embellished) Plus, LinkedIn has had numerous hacks.

My resume that I wrote decades ago and just added to with each employer, got me 
offers galore, was 100% factual, and my interview skills got me hired. I was 
never unemployed. And never had a bad review.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:35 PM, g...@gabegold.com  
wrote:

Too funny. Basic research (LinkedIn, etc.) would have revealed my degree. 
Research ability is another important system programming skill you haven't 
exhibited.

You've listed dozens of places you've worked (with apparently consistently 
short tenures) and various products you've touched but haven't said a word 
about anything you've accomplished. Claimed employers and skills and 
credentials are worthless without something to show for them. Listing my 
projects done using assembler language is simply stating facts. Your listing 
your degree and places you've worked is indeed irrelevant puffery.

Now let's return to your nonsensical assertions about assembler language.

On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 20:18:13 +, Bill Johnson  wrote:

>I’ve listed my skills and jobs here. Worked for numerous companies, some 
>rather large, (GM, Revco, Parker Hannifin, Kaiser Permanente, Kent State, Phar 
>Mor, Mellon Bank, First Energy, American Electric Power, Alltel, Medical 
>Mutual of Ohio, Microfocus, and others. I can tell you’re not a college grad. 
>Because you downplay what you lack. And try so hard to puff yourself up as 
>well as others who couldn’t hack college. 
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:11 PM, g...@gabegold.com  
>wrote:
>
>That's correctly spelled z/OS. Even beginning system programmers should know 
>that.
>
>Degrees are often most relevant to people who rely on them for credibility, 
>vs. having actual qualifications and experience.
>
>"Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer of zOS" shows profound 
>ignorance of what system programming actually entails: making effective 
>business-related use of what IBM and other vendors provide. Not just 
>installing -- that's a poor excuse for what system programming has been for 
>decades. It's too bad that in your decades of IT work at those dozens of jobs 
>(so many, such short tenures?) you never encountered the real thing.
>
>Your attitude towards a skill you don't posses is fascinating. Seems a lot 
>like sour grapes:
>
>refers to an attitude in which someone adopts a negative attitude to something 
>because they cannot have it themselves.
>
>Have you felt inadequate seeing assembler code you couldn't understand on the 
>list?
>
>Perhaps cheer yourself up by reading some comfortable JCL, or utility control 
>statements. And set some nice variables to feel better.
>
>On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 00:06:16 +, Bill Johnson  wrote:
>
>>Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, 
>>you’re likely an installer of zOS. 
>
>--
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>
>
>
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Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive

[Bill Johnson]

I love how many of you downplay others who don’t do what you do. And act like 
it’s inferior. Plus, puff yourselves up simply for programming in Assembler. I 
made a boatload of money in 40+ years performing nearly every task on the 
mainframe. I can also code in Assembler, just never needed to. Assembler is 
still dying, as the Assembler listserv attests. Plus, the fact it’s nearly 
impossible to find a company that offers training classes in it.

Retirement is great. I no longer have to deal with pompous a**holes like you. 
Self promoting narcissistic cult members. Trained, not educated.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:26 PM, g...@gabegold.com  
wrote:

Not that it matters -- or that I rely on it for credentials/credibility -- but 
I do, B.S. in Applied Mathematics.

Wrong again, you are. About so much.

My point is that many excellent programmers (system and application) don't have 
degrees - and are no less excellent for that omission. And besides you I can't 
think of another working programmer who trumpeted their supposed credentials 
vs. real-world on-the-job accomplishments.

What in the world does having a degree have to do with whether assembler 
language is a valuable/useful skill? Even for low-level grunt work such as 
yours, installing z/OS, how does your degree in Math/CS help? You've wandered 
far afield from the actual topic -- your misunderstanding that the essence of 
system programming isn't installing things.

On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 20:12:41 +, Bill Johnson  wrote:

>No doubt you don’t have one. 
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:11 PM, g...@gabegold.com  
>wrote:
>
>That's correctly spelled z/OS. Even beginning system programmers should know 
>that.
>
>Degrees are often most relevant to people who rely on them for credibility, 
>vs. having actual qualifications and experience.
>
>"Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer of zOS" shows profound 
>ignorance of what system programming actually entails: making effective 
>business-related use of what IBM and other vendors provide. Not just 
>installing -- that's a poor excuse for what system programming has been for 
>decades. It's too bad that in your decades of IT work at those dozens of jobs 
>(so many, such short tenures?) you never encountered the real thing.
>
>Your attitude towards a skill you don't posses is fascinating. Seems a lot 
>like sour grapes:
>
>refers to an attitude in which someone adopts a negative attitude to something 
>because they cannot have it themselves.
>
>Have you felt inadequate seeing assembler code you couldn't understand on the 
>list?
>
>Perhaps cheer yourself up by reading some comfortable JCL, or utility control 
>statements. And set some nice variables to feel better.
>
>On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 00:06:16 +, Bill Johnson  wrote:
>
>>Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, 
>>you’re likely an installer of zOS. 
>
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>
>
>
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Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive

[Bill Johnson]

Phoenix online?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:26 PM, g...@gabegold.com  
wrote:

Not that it matters -- or that I rely on it for credentials/credibility -- but 
I do, B.S. in Applied Mathematics.

Wrong again, you are. About so much.

My point is that many excellent programmers (system and application) don't have 
degrees - and are no less excellent for that omission. And besides you I can't 
think of another working programmer who trumpeted their supposed credentials 
vs. real-world on-the-job accomplishments.

What in the world does having a degree have to do with whether assembler 
language is a valuable/useful skill? Even for low-level grunt work such as 
yours, installing z/OS, how does your degree in Math/CS help? You've wandered 
far afield from the actual topic -- your misunderstanding that the essence of 
system programming isn't installing things.

On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 20:12:41 +, Bill Johnson  wrote:

>No doubt you don’t have one. 
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:11 PM, g...@gabegold.com  
>wrote:
>
>That's correctly spelled z/OS. Even beginning system programmers should know 
>that.
>
>Degrees are often most relevant to people who rely on them for credibility, 
>vs. having actual qualifications and experience.
>
>"Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer of zOS" shows profound 
>ignorance of what system programming actually entails: making effective 
>business-related use of what IBM and other vendors provide. Not just 
>installing -- that's a poor excuse for what system programming has been for 
>decades. It's too bad that in your decades of IT work at those dozens of jobs 
>(so many, such short tenures?) you never encountered the real thing.
>
>Your attitude towards a skill you don't posses is fascinating. Seems a lot 
>like sour grapes:
>
>refers to an attitude in which someone adopts a negative attitude to something 
>because they cannot have it themselves.
>
>Have you felt inadequate seeing assembler code you couldn't understand on the 
>list?
>
>Perhaps cheer yourself up by reading some comfortable JCL, or utility control 
>statements. And set some nice variables to feel better.
>
>On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 00:06:16 +, Bill Johnson  wrote:
>
>>Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, 
>>you’re likely an installer of zOS. 
>
>--
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>
>
>
>
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Key differences between education and training.

[Bill Johnson]

   
   - Training refers to an act of inculcating specific skills in a person. 
Education is all about gaining theoretical knowledge in the classroom or any 
institution.
   - Training is a way to develop specific skills, whereas education is a 
typical system of learning.
   - Training is completely based on practical application, which is just 
opposite in the case of education that involves theoretical orientation.
   - The concept of training is narrow while the concept of education is 
comparatively wider.
   - Training involves hands-on experience regarding the particular job. On the 
other hand, education involves learning in the classroom.
   - The term of education is longer than the duration of training.
   - The training prepares a person for the present job. Conversely, education 
prepares a person for future job and challenges.
   - The purpose of training is to improve the performance and productivity of 
employees. As opposed to education, where the purpose is to develop a sense of 
reasoning and judgement.
   - During training, a person learns, how to do a specific task. Unlike 
Education, which teaches about the general concepts.

Conclusion


Though with the changing environment, the approach towards training and 
education is also getting changed. Normally, it is presumed that every employee 
who is going to take training, has got some formal education. Moreover, it is 
also true that there is no training program which is conducted without 
education.

Education is more important for the employees working on a higher level as 
compared to the low-level workers. Although education is common for all the 
employees, regardless of their grades. So, the firms should consider both the 
elements, at the time of planning their training program because there are 
instances when the employees need to take decisions themselves regarding their 
work, where education is as important as training.




https://keydifferences.com/difference-between-training-and-education.html 







You could train someone to remove an appendix. What happens if the appendix 
burst during removal? Or something else happens outside of the training?




You can train most animals. Some are more trainable than others. Chimps & 
humans share 98.8 of their DNA.




While training people to perform a task can be done, and often it might be a 
perfect fit for the organization doing the training, (EDS for example since 
they had their own utilities) it generally requires more training when things 
change or the employee goes elsewhere.




You also have education bias. Some people who aren’t college educated sometimes 
tend to dislike and dismiss the education of others.




I don’t discount real world experience either. In fact, I ran 2 businesses, one 
of which interacted with the local mafia. (Carabbia’s were a customer of mine 
and me of theirs) It truly opened my eyes to Youngstown’s & the world’s reality.







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Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive

[Bill Johnson]

I’ve listed my skills and jobs here. Worked for numerous companies, some rather 
large, (GM, Revco, Parker Hannifin, Kaiser Permanente, Kent State, Phar Mor, 
Mellon Bank, First Energy, American Electric Power, Alltel, Medical Mutual of 
Ohio, Microfocus, and others. I can tell you’re not a college grad. Because you 
downplay what you lack. And try so hard to puff yourself up as well as others 
who couldn’t hack college. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:11 PM, g...@gabegold.com  
wrote:

That's correctly spelled z/OS. Even beginning system programmers should know 
that.

Degrees are often most relevant to people who rely on them for credibility, vs. 
having actual qualifications and experience.

"Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer of zOS" shows profound 
ignorance of what system programming actually entails: making effective 
business-related use of what IBM and other vendors provide. Not just installing 
-- that's a poor excuse for what system programming has been for decades. It's 
too bad that in your decades of IT work at those dozens of jobs (so many, such 
short tenures?) you never encountered the real thing.

Your attitude towards a skill you don't posses is fascinating. Seems a lot like 
sour grapes:

refers to an attitude in which someone adopts a negative attitude to something 
because they cannot have it themselves.

Have you felt inadequate seeing assembler code you couldn't understand on the 
list?

Perhaps cheer yourself up by reading some comfortable JCL, or utility control 
statements. And set some nice variables to feel better.

On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 00:06:16 +0000, Bill Johnson  wrote:

>Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, you’re 
>likely an installer of zOS. 

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Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive

[Bill Johnson]

No doubt you don’t have one. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, September 4, 2023, 4:11 PM, g...@gabegold.com  
wrote:

That's correctly spelled z/OS. Even beginning system programmers should know 
that.

Degrees are often most relevant to people who rely on them for credibility, vs. 
having actual qualifications and experience.

"Unless you work for IBM, you’re likely an installer of zOS" shows profound 
ignorance of what system programming actually entails: making effective 
business-related use of what IBM and other vendors provide. Not just installing 
-- that's a poor excuse for what system programming has been for decades. It's 
too bad that in your decades of IT work at those dozens of jobs (so many, such 
short tenures?) you never encountered the real thing.

Your attitude towards a skill you don't posses is fascinating. Seems a lot like 
sour grapes:

refers to an attitude in which someone adopts a negative attitude to something 
because they cannot have it themselves.

Have you felt inadequate seeing assembler code you couldn't understand on the 
list?

Perhaps cheer yourself up by reading some comfortable JCL, or utility control 
statements. And set some nice variables to feel better.

On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 00:06:16 +0000, Bill Johnson  wrote:

>Degrees are never relevant to the non-degreed. Unless you work for IBM, you’re 
>likely an installer of zOS. 

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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

Not sure. My experience with chatgpt is minimal. I installed it on the iPhone a 
month or two ago and this is my second attempt to get it to do something. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, September 4, 2023, 2:25 PM, Paul Gilmartin 
<042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 17:20:24 +, Bill Johnson wrote:

>The formatting was perfect. The cut & paste wasn’t. 
>
Could you direct it to a file instead of the screen, and attach the file?
(Teachers look askance at copies of homework.)

-- 
gil

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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

[Bill Johnson]

Like I said the formatting was perfect via chatgbt, the cut/paste was not.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, September 4, 2023, 2:05 PM, Paul Gilmartin 
<042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 10:42:51 -0700, Tom Brennan wrote:

>I can't be sure I formatted it properly, ...
>
What did you do to fix it?  (List the steps, or did you just retype t?)

Could ChatGPT be instructed to use line breaks and eschew NBSP?

>but after looking over the 
>code, I have nothing to say but WTF? :)
>
>          PRINT NOGEN
>          TITLE 'Simple Addition Program'
>** Define storage for input numbers and result
>*
Reminds me of a certain physicist's first FORTRAN program.

ChatGPT needs to peruse a QSAM tutorial.
Could it produce a reentrant version?
Does it remember in case you ask for a refinement?

>NUM1    DS    F            First input number
>NUM2    DS    F            Second input number
>RESULT  DS    F            Result of addition
>** Main program
>*
>MAIN    C      0        NUM1  Check if NUM1 is zero
>          BE    ZERO            Branch to ZERO if true
>** Read the first number from input
>*
>          GET    NUM1,NUMIN      Read NUM1 from input
>          LA    0,NUM1          Load NUM1 into register
>** Read the second number from input
>*
>          GET    NUM2,NUMIN      Read NUM2 from input
>          A      NUM1,NUM2      Add NUM1 and NUM2
>          ST    NUM1,RESULT    Store the result in RESULT
>** Print the result
>*
>          PUT    RESULT,NUMOUT  Print the result
>** Terminate the program
>*
>          SR    15,15          Set return code to 0
>          BR    14              Return to caller
>** Define input and output areas
>*
>NUMIN    DC    F'0'          Input buffer for numbers
>NUMOUT  DC    F'0'          Output buffer for result
>ZERO    DC    F'0'          Constant zero
>          END  MAIN            End of program
>
>On 9/4/2023 9:57 AM, Paul Gilmartinrwrote:
>> On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 16:36:14 +, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> 
>>> William:
>>>
>>> Write me an assembler program using high-level assembler for the mainframe.
>>>
>> Fix your damn mailer, or throw it away and get one that works!
>> 
>> In particular, do not use NBSP to format code samples.
>> 
>>> Chatgpt:
>>>
>>> Certainly! Here’s a simple example of a mainframe assembly program written 
>>> in High-Level Assembler (HLASM) that reads two numbers from input and 
>>> prints their sum:
>>>           PRINT NOGEN         TITLE 'Simple Addition Program'** Define 
>>>storage for input numbers and result*NUM1     DS    F             First 
>>>input numberNUM2     DS    F             Second input numberRESULT   DS    F 
>>>            Result of addition** Main program*MAIN     C      0      NUM1   
>>>Check if NUM1 is zero         BE     ZERO            Branch to ZERO if 
>>>true** Read the first number from input*         GET    NUM1,NUMIN      Read 
>>>NUM1 from input         LA     0,NUM1          Load NUM1 into register** 
>>>Read the second number from input*         GET    NUM2,NUMIN      Read NUM2 
>>>from input         A      NUM1,NUM2       Add NUM1 and NUM2         ST     
>>>NUM1,RESULT     Store the result in RESULT** Print the result*         PUT   
>>> RESULT,NUMOUT   Print the result** Terminate the program*         SR     
>>>15,15           Set return code to 0         BR     14              Return 
>>>to caller** Define input and output areas*NUMIN    DC    F'0'           
>>>Input buffer for numbersNUMOUT   DC    F'0'           Output buffer for 
>>>resultZERO     DC    F'0'           Constant zero         END   MAIN         
>>>   End of program
>>> Please note that this is a simplified example for demonstration purposes. 
>>> In a real-world scenario, you would need to adapt this code to your 
>>> specific mainframe environment and requirements. Assembly language 
>>> programming can be quite complex, so make sure to consult the documentation 
>>> for your specific mainframe and assembler to ensure compatibility and 
>>> correctness.

-- 
gil

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