Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Dear Behcet, Can you please check the confirmation you received when you made your reservation. There were a number of rates available with different terms, when I contacted the MECC booking service and they indicated you booked the rate which is non-refundable. This means you received a special low rate which is pre-paid and charged at the time you make your reservation. This rate also means you cannot change or cancel your reservation. If you need additional information, please let me know. Thanks, Marcia On May 19, 2010, at 1:03 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote: Hi, I noticed that IETF 78 Hotel that I made reservation already charged my credit card for the whole duration of my stay. Should I be thankful because euro is low these days or complain about it? Thx. Behcet ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Hi, I noticed that IETF 78 Hotel that I made reservation already charged my credit card for the whole duration of my stay. Should I be thankful because euro is low these days or complain about it? Thx. Behcet ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On May 18, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote: Hi, I noticed that IETF 78 Hotel that I made reservation already charged my credit card for the whole duration of my stay. Charged, or authorized ? (In the authorized case, the charge will generally show up as pending.) Frequently authorization is ~ 150% of the nominal room charge, but doing it in advance seems quite excessive. Marshall Should I be thankful because euro is low these days or complain about it? Thx. Behcet ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Its all about money, but not necessarily the fees. The cabs in most parts of the US are run through a licensed monopoly scheme which is frequently corrupt. In NYC the guy who drives the cab gets a pittance while the medallions sell for huge sums. Raising taxi fares does not improve the pay of the drivers, the surplus all goes to the controllers of the monopoly. Mandating credit card acceptance should in theory merely reduce the amount the rent that the medallion owners can extract from the drivers and thus not affect the proportion of the fares the drivers receive. The reason the drivers do not like them is that they make their earnings more transparent to the medallion owners and thus enable them to maximize their rent extraction. It may not appear to be IETF related, but there are many, many circumstances where deployment of a security protocol will be blocked because similar effects are at work under the covers. On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 10:15 AM, Nathaniel Borenstein n...@guppylake.com wrote: I think it's really all about the credit card fees. Cab drivers, at least in the US, are often on a small enough margin, with high fixed costs, that the few percent taken by the card companies can be the difference between a worthwhile and a wasted fare. Next time a cabbie doesn't want your card, offer him 10% more and watch him change his tune. On May 9, 2010, at 11:01 PM, ty...@mit.edu wrote: On Sun, May 09, 2010 at 06:31:14PM -0700, Dan Harkins wrote: I have had cab drivers in the US try to force me to pay cash in similar situations. Saying they don't accept credit cards and then, when I say that's all I have, telling me how much longer it will take to get me out of their cab if I really want to use a credit card. In these cases I just kept insisting on the card and eventually (like, within a minute) all was settled the way I wanted it to be settled: with the credit card. It may seem anachronistic to some, but the rule of law does apply in the US today and asking to have a police officer settle the dispute is a good way of getting quick resolution. If all else fails maybe taking a picture or two (driver and taxi permit) with a camera phone might tend to elicit a change of attitude. I talked to a cab driver in Boston, and he's not very happy with credit cards, because he was forced to use a new system for credit cards, and it takes what he considered an unfairly large percentage when customers pay by credit cards. After learning that, I've generally tried to pay cash when I can, and if I really have to pay by credit card, I'll give a bigger tip as compensation. - Ted ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf -- Website: http://hallambaker.com/ ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Taxicabs (was: Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht)
(subject line adjusted -- this has long ago ceased to be Maastricht-specific in any way) --On Tuesday, May 18, 2010 13:11 -0400 Phillip Hallam-Baker hal...@gmail.com wrote: ... Mandating credit card acceptance should in theory merely reduce the amount the rent that the medallion owners can extract from the drivers and thus not affect the proportion of the fares the drivers receive. The reason the drivers do not like them is that they make their earnings more transparent to the medallion owners and thus enable them to maximize their rent extraction. A closely-related reason the drivers don't like them is concern that credit card charges leave a paper trail that can, in principle, make it harder to distort income for taxation purposes. None of this makes the comments of Ted and others less true. The equation is, as usual, a little more complicated than credit card charges or perceived float alone. There is no the reason, only a whole complex of reasons, some of which may be more important to some drivers in some areas than others. john ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Hi, I noticed that IETF 78 Hotel that I made reservation already charged my credit card for the whole duration of my stay. Charged, or authorized ? (In the authorized case, the charge will generally show up as pending.) I saw it as a fixed charge in my credit card statement not as pending. Frequently authorization is ~ 150% of the nominal room charge, but doing it in advance seems quite excessive. You mean one night's charge? In my case it was for the whole week. I am hoping that Ray will do something. Regards, Behcet ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Which hotel was it? Two of the hotels (NH Maastricht and Crowne Plaza Maastricht) show two sets of rates, a refundable rate and a non-refundable rate. It says that if you choose the non-refundable rate your credit card will be charged immediately. Janet ietf-boun...@ietf.org wrote on 05/18/2010 02:55:24 PM: [image removed] Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht Behcet Sarikaya to: Marshall Eubanks 05/18/2010 02:55 PM Sent by: ietf-boun...@ietf.org Cc: IETF Discussion Please respond to Behcet Sarikaya Hi, I noticed that IETF 78 Hotel that I made reservation already charged my credit card for the whole duration of my stay. Charged, or authorized ? (In the authorized case, the charge will generally show up as pending.) I saw it as a fixed charge in my credit card statement not as pending. Frequently authorization is ~ 150% of the nominal room charge, but doing it in advance seems quite excessive. You mean one night's charge? In my case it was for the whole week. I am hoping that Ray will do something. Regards, Behcet ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht (morphed to cabbies and credit cards)
On May 10, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Steven Bellovin wrote: On May 10, 2010, at 11:54 52AM, Bob Braden wrote: Is there no bottom to this particular rat hole? Enough, already! We first have to discuss if the credit cards have to be in ASCII vs. HTML or PDF. There you have it, folks: clear evidence of the IETF's irrational and unfair bias against EBCDIC. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht (morphed to cabbies and credit cards)
On 10.05.2010 18:44, Steven Bellovin wrote: On May 10, 2010, at 11:54 52AM, Bob Braden wrote: Is there no bottom to this particular rat hole? Enough, already! We first have to discuss if the credit cards have to be in ASCII vs. HTML or PDF. Even cab drivers nowadays know that the character encoding (ASCII vs UTF-8 vs EBCDIC) and the file format (text/plain, application/xhtml+xml, ...) are orthogonal issues... Best regards, Julian ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On 10 mei 2010, at 5:01, ty...@mit.edu wrote: I talked to a cab driver in Boston, and he's not very happy with credit cards, because he was forced to use a new system for credit cards, and it takes what he considered an unfairly large percentage when customers pay by credit cards. And that's why credit cards are so evil. I understand there are often provisions that sellers can't charge a premium for credit card payments to make up for the commission so in places where creditcards are common EVERYONE pays more because of credit card commissions. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 11:05:52AM +0200, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: On 10 mei 2010, at 5:01, ty...@mit.edu wrote: I talked to a cab driver in Boston, and he's not very happy with credit cards, because he was forced to use a new system for credit cards, and it takes what he considered an unfairly large percentage when customers pay by credit cards. And that's why credit cards are so evil. I understand there are often provisions that sellers can't charge a premium for credit card payments to make up for the commission so in places where creditcards are common EVERYONE pays more because of credit card commissions. It's worse than the standard credit card banks charge a percentage. Apparently the service that provides the TV screen with GPS monitoring (and which gets revenue from the advertising shown on said TV screen) is charging substantially more (2x to 3x) than what the percentage would be if the Taxi cab driver were to use his own bank's credit card clearing service; but the way the system is set up, he has to use the one which is installed in his cab. Anyway, Taxi cabs are a regulated monopoly, so the State gets to set the rules, but do have some understanding if the taxi cab drivers growl a bit before accepting the credit card. (This is at least in Boston; YMMV in different cities.) - Ted ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On May 10, 2010, at 5:05 52AM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: On 10 mei 2010, at 5:01, ty...@mit.edu wrote: I talked to a cab driver in Boston, and he's not very happy with credit cards, because he was forced to use a new system for credit cards, and it takes what he considered an unfairly large percentage when customers pay by credit cards. And that's why credit cards are so evil. I understand there are often provisions that sellers can't charge a premium for credit card payments to make up for the commission so in places where creditcards are common EVERYONE pays more because of credit card commissions. On the other hand, according to the NY Times taxi drivers in New York have found that accepting credit cards (required by law in the city) has helped their business and their bottom line: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/08/nyregion/08taxi.html --Steve Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 5:05 AM, Iljitsch van Beijnum iljit...@muada.com wrote: On 10 mei 2010, at 5:01, ty...@mit.edu wrote: I talked to a cab driver in Boston, and he's not very happy with credit cards, because he was forced to use a new system for credit cards, and it takes what he considered an unfairly large percentage when customers pay by credit cards. And that's why credit cards are so evil. I understand there are often provisions that sellers can't charge a premium for credit card payments to make up for the commission so in places where creditcards are common EVERYONE pays more because of credit card commissions. While there might be special rules for taxis and while in the USA most credit card merchant agreements prohibit adding a surcharge for using a credit card, they do not prohibit giving a discount for cash. Donald ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
I think it's really all about the credit card fees. Cab drivers, at least in the US, are often on a small enough margin, with high fixed costs, that the few percent taken by the card companies can be the difference between a worthwhile and a wasted fare. Next time a cabbie doesn't want your card, offer him 10% more and watch him change his tune. On May 9, 2010, at 11:01 PM, ty...@mit.edu wrote: On Sun, May 09, 2010 at 06:31:14PM -0700, Dan Harkins wrote: I have had cab drivers in the US try to force me to pay cash in similar situations. Saying they don't accept credit cards and then, when I say that's all I have, telling me how much longer it will take to get me out of their cab if I really want to use a credit card. In these cases I just kept insisting on the card and eventually (like, within a minute) all was settled the way I wanted it to be settled: with the credit card. It may seem anachronistic to some, but the rule of law does apply in the US today and asking to have a police officer settle the dispute is a good way of getting quick resolution. If all else fails maybe taking a picture or two (driver and taxi permit) with a camera phone might tend to elicit a change of attitude. I talked to a cab driver in Boston, and he's not very happy with credit cards, because he was forced to use a new system for credit cards, and it takes what he considered an unfairly large percentage when customers pay by credit cards. After learning that, I've generally tried to pay cash when I can, and if I really have to pay by credit card, I'll give a bigger tip as compensation. - Ted ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On May 10, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Nathaniel Borenstein wrote: I think it's really all about the credit card fees. Cab drivers, at least in the US, are often on a small enough margin, with high fixed costs, that the few percent taken by the card companies can be the difference between a worthwhile and a wasted fare. Next time a cabbie doesn't want your card, offer him 10% more and watch him change his tune. There is also a big difference in my experience between cabs that have wireless card readers / verifies (as do the Dulles Airport - IAD - taxis here in DC) and those that run credit cards through a paper imprinter. I have, for example, never gotten any push back in paying for a Dulles cab by card since they got the readers. The taxis without a reader tend to resist using a card. The last IETF in Minneapolis I took a cab to the airport, had no cash and paid by credit card with a paper imprint. The charge did not appear until about 6 months later, so someone (the taxi driver or at least his company) effectively floated my ride for 6 months. I can understand them pushing back if it means a delay in their income. Regards Marshall On May 9, 2010, at 11:01 PM, ty...@mit.edu wrote: On Sun, May 09, 2010 at 06:31:14PM -0700, Dan Harkins wrote: I have had cab drivers in the US try to force me to pay cash in similar situations. Saying they don't accept credit cards and then, when I say that's all I have, telling me how much longer it will take to get me out of their cab if I really want to use a credit card. In these cases I just kept insisting on the card and eventually (like, within a minute) all was settled the way I wanted it to be settled: with the credit card. It may seem anachronistic to some, but the rule of law does apply in the US today and asking to have a police officer settle the dispute is a good way of getting quick resolution. If all else fails maybe taking a picture or two (driver and taxi permit) with a camera phone might tend to elicit a change of attitude. I talked to a cab driver in Boston, and he's not very happy with credit cards, because he was forced to use a new system for credit cards, and it takes what he considered an unfairly large percentage when customers pay by credit cards. After learning that, I've generally tried to pay cash when I can, and if I really have to pay by credit card, I'll give a bigger tip as compensation. - Ted ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On Mon, 10 May 2010, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: On 10 mei 2010, at 5:01, ty...@mit.edu wrote: I talked to a cab driver in Boston, and he's not very happy with credit cards, because he was forced to use a new system for credit cards, and it takes what he considered an unfairly large percentage when customers pay by credit cards. And that's why credit cards are so evil. I understand there are often provisions that sellers can't charge a premium for credit card payments to make up for the commission so in places where creditcards are common EVERYONE pays more because of credit card commissions. Worth noting in this context ... in many/most/all US cities, cab fares are regulated ... that would tend to not provide the cab driver/company with the ability to compensate for the CC fee with higher rates and might make them less happy about taking cards. Also, in one case where I used a card, the transaction was handled over the cab's radio to the dispatcher ... not something that made me happy. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht (morphed to cabbies and credit cards)
Is there no bottom to this particular rat hole? Enough, already! Bob Braden ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht (morphed to cabbies and credit cards)
On May 10, 2010, at 11:54 52AM, Bob Braden wrote: Is there no bottom to this particular rat hole? Enough, already! We first have to discuss if the credit cards have to be in ASCII vs. HTML or PDF. --Steve Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
I traveled through Schipol last January. My Visa debit card (with PIN) worked at the human counter with the PIN Cards Only sign. It was later refused at a different station, but I think that was a matter of an untrained attendant more than a technology failure. (He expected a chip.) On May 9, 2010, at 11:43 AM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: On 8 mei 2010, at 1:50, Glen Zorn wrote: More than once, I _have_ asked the driver specifically if he accepts credit cards (the advertised policy notwithstanding) only to have him refuse it upon arrival... Curious way to engage in commerce. Where was this? BTW: I'm typing this from Schiphol airport. I just went to the train ticket counter, and they have big signs posted everywhere that they only accept PIN-enabled credit cards. And cash, of course. Note that on http://www.ietf78.nl/ it says that the railway ticket machines accept cash, but that's only barely true: only some of them do, and then only in the form of coins. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On 8 mei 2010, at 1:50, Glen Zorn wrote: More than once, I _have_ asked the driver specifically if he accepts credit cards (the advertised policy notwithstanding) only to have him refuse it upon arrival... Curious way to engage in commerce. Where was this? BTW: I'm typing this from Schiphol airport. I just went to the train ticket counter, and they have big signs posted everywhere that they only accept PIN-enabled credit cards. And cash, of course. Note that on http://www.ietf78.nl/ it says that the railway ticket machines accept cash, but that's only barely true: only some of them do, and then only in the form of coins. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Iljitsch van Beijnum [mailto:iljit...@muada.com] writes: On 8 mei 2010, at 1:50, Glen Zorn wrote: More than once, I _have_ asked the driver specifically if he accepts credit cards (the advertised policy notwithstanding) only to have him refuse it upon arrival... Curious way to engage in commerce. Where was this? Several places, all in the US; most recently, Dallas. ... ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
I have had cab drivers in the US try to force me to pay cash in similar situations. Saying they don't accept credit cards and then, when I say that's all I have, telling me how much longer it will take to get me out of their cab if I really want to use a credit card. In these cases I just kept insisting on the card and eventually (like, within a minute) all was settled the way I wanted it to be settled: with the credit card. It may seem anachronistic to some, but the rule of law does apply in the US today and asking to have a police officer settle the dispute is a good way of getting quick resolution. If all else fails maybe taking a picture or two (driver and taxi permit) with a camera phone might tend to elicit a change of attitude. Dan. On Sun, May 9, 2010 5:29 pm, Glen Zorn wrote: Iljitsch van Beijnum [mailto:iljit...@muada.com] writes: On 8 mei 2010, at 1:50, Glen Zorn wrote: More than once, I _have_ asked the driver specifically if he accepts credit cards (the advertised policy notwithstanding) only to have him refuse it upon arrival... Curious way to engage in commerce. Where was this? Several places, all in the US; most recently, Dallas. ... ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On Sun, May 09, 2010 at 06:31:14PM -0700, Dan Harkins wrote: I have had cab drivers in the US try to force me to pay cash in similar situations. Saying they don't accept credit cards and then, when I say that's all I have, telling me how much longer it will take to get me out of their cab if I really want to use a credit card. In these cases I just kept insisting on the card and eventually (like, within a minute) all was settled the way I wanted it to be settled: with the credit card. It may seem anachronistic to some, but the rule of law does apply in the US today and asking to have a police officer settle the dispute is a good way of getting quick resolution. If all else fails maybe taking a picture or two (driver and taxi permit) with a camera phone might tend to elicit a change of attitude. I talked to a cab driver in Boston, and he's not very happy with credit cards, because he was forced to use a new system for credit cards, and it takes what he considered an unfairly large percentage when customers pay by credit cards. After learning that, I've generally tried to pay cash when I can, and if I really have to pay by credit card, I'll give a bigger tip as compensation. - Ted ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Joe, You should have asked when you got in; many cabs in the US (in most cities I've traveled to, and all the ones I've used at LAX where I reside) do take credit cards. The cab had a sign that said they take credit cards. Just that in the end, that didn't turn out to be a true advertisement. In any case, my point was not my specific travel problems. The point was that no matter where you are going some cash is probably recommended. I certainly recommend that for EU and Maastricht as well. You may survive without, but you are definitely taking a risk with bad cabs, foreign-credit-cards-not-accepted-ticket-machines, and the like. Jari ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Hi, Jari, Individual shop owners (and cab drivers) can always do what they want (anywhere), even when the company they work for accepts cards. As I noted, you can ask before you get into the cab. Though I agree with your recommendation that backup cash is always useful -- in any city. Joe Jari Arkko wrote: Joe, You should have asked when you got in; many cabs in the US (in most cities I've traveled to, and all the ones I've used at LAX where I reside) do take credit cards. The cab had a sign that said they take credit cards. Just that in the end, that didn't turn out to be a true advertisement. In any case, my point was not my specific travel problems. The point was that no matter where you are going some cash is probably recommended. I certainly recommend that for EU and Maastricht as well. You may survive without, but you are definitely taking a risk with bad cabs, foreign-credit-cards-not-accepted-ticket-machines, and the like. Jari signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Hi, Jari, Individual shop owners (and cab drivers) can always do what they want (anywhere), even when the company they work for accepts cards. As I noted, you can ask before you get into the cab. More than once, I _have_ asked the driver specifically if he accepts credit cards (the advertised policy notwithstanding) only to have him refuse it upon arrival... Though I agree with your recommendation that backup cash is always useful -- in any city. Indeed. Joe Jari Arkko wrote: Joe, You should have asked when you got in; many cabs in the US (in most cities I've traveled to, and all the ones I've used at LAX where I reside) do take credit cards. The cab had a sign that said they take credit cards. Just that in the end, that didn't turn out to be a true advertisement. In any case, my point was not my specific travel problems. The point was that no matter where you are going some cash is probably recommended. I certainly recommend that for EU and Maastricht as well. You may survive without, but you are definitely taking a risk with bad cabs, foreign-credit-cards-not-accepted-ticket-machines, and the like. Jari ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Theodore Tso wrote: ... This was my experience as well (I travel a lot, to many countries in Europe and Asia, and have never had a problem until I travelled to the Netherlands last year) --- except my ATM card didn't work, either. When I talked to my bank, they told me it was because of fraud problems in that country specifically; I would have needed to warn them at least a few days in advance i was planning on visiting the Netherlands for them to put my card on a special authorization list. Many banks have a not outside the country of origin except with explicit permission rule. My bank started this about 7 years ago. It's not country-specific. I encourage those intending to use their ATM cards overseas to similarly inform their bank in advance. Joe signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Jari Arkko wrote: Phillip, This is the main change from the US. In the US it is entirely practical to carry only plastic and no cash at all. This is mostly right, but maybe not universally true. Imagine my surprise when I walked to a cab at LAX and asked to be taken to the Anaheim hotel. First, I had apparently not read enough 77attendees list to realize that its a LONG way from the airport. Second, the cab refused to take credit cards. You should have asked when you got in; many cabs in the US (in most cities I've traveled to, and all the ones I've used at LAX where I reside) do take credit cards. If you find one that doesn't, get out and get another cab (and, at the airport, inform the cab attendant). FYI. Joe signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Phillip, This is the main change from the US. In the US it is entirely practical to carry only plastic and no cash at all. This is mostly right, but maybe not universally true. Imagine my surprise when I walked to a cab at LAX and asked to be taken to the Anaheim hotel. First, I had apparently not read enough 77attendees list to realize that its a LONG way from the airport. Second, the cab refused to take credit cards. I had cash, of course. I was already under the impression that paying cabs with cash is necessary in the US. But it took a big dent to my cash reserves. Lessons: 1) its useful to be aware of where you are going and what form of transport is appropriate 2) you always need cash, no matter where you go. If its not the cab its the coke machine, train or something else. Jari ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On Apr 2, 2010, at 3:56 PM, Ralph Droms wrote: So, with all this discussion, I'm still not clear what to expect. When I walk up to a train ticket kiosk in Schiphol, should I expect to be able to use my US-issued, non-chip credit card (AMEX, VISA - I don't care as long as *one* of them works), or should I have a fistful of Euros handy? My US-issued Visa, Mastercard, Amex, Visa Debit, and Mastercard Debit cards did not work at the automated kiosk in Schiphol last summer. I was able to use the attended desk with a US credit card. I was also able to use a US credit card at the Amsterdam local transit sales counter/ I was also able to withdraw Euros using my ATM (US debit) cards at every location I tried. -- Dean ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Theodore Tso allegedly wrote on 04/03/2010 06:48 EDT: When I talked to my bank, they told me it was because of fraud problems in that country specifically; I would have needed to warn them at least a few days in advance i was planning on visiting the Netherlands for them to put my card on a special authorization list. Could someone verify that they HAVE warned their bank and successfully used credit cards at Schiphol? That that was the issue? (I've gotten cash at Schiphol but never bought a train ticket) ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Last time I was there you could *not* use a non-chip credit card at the train kiosks, but you could use a non-chip card in general at manned stores/vendors. At 09:35 AM 4/5/2010, Scott Brim wrote: Theodore Tso allegedly wrote on 04/03/2010 06:48 EDT: When I talked to my bank, they told me it was because of fraud problems in that country specifically; I would have needed to warn them at least a few days in advance i was planning on visiting the Netherlands for them to put my card on a special authorization list. Could someone verify that they HAVE warned their bank and successfully used credit cards at Schiphol? That that was the issue? (I've gotten cash at Schiphol but never bought a train ticket) ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On 4/5/2010 5:40 PM, Mike Tibodeau wrote: Last time I was there you could *not* use a non-chip credit card at the train kiosks, but you could use a non-chip card in general at manned stores/vendors. During last year I had no any problem with usage of Visa and Mastercard non-chip credit and debit cards at the Schiphol's train kiosks. You still need PIN. Before sometimes it was a problem at the Amsterdam Central Station. Dima At 09:35 AM 4/5/2010, Scott Brim wrote: Theodore Tso allegedly wrote on 04/03/2010 06:48 EDT: When I talked to my bank, they told me it was because of fraud problems in that country specifically; I would have needed to warn them at least a few days in advance i was planning on visiting the Netherlands for them to put my card on a special authorization list. Could someone verify that they HAVE warned their bank and successfully used credit cards at Schiphol? That that was the issue? (I've gotten cash at Schiphol but never bought a train ticket) ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
This is the main change from the US. In the US it is entirely practical to carry only plastic and no cash at all. There are more purchases that are impossible with cash than a card - try buying a car with cash and see what happens. In most of Europe you have a high probability of being able to use a card, but you really don't want to ever get into a situation where your cash reserves are lower than the price of a taxi fare plus a railway ticket. On the plus side, there are subway stops where you can buy a beer from the kiosk on the platform. On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 5:33 PM, Chris Elliott chell...@pobox.com wrote: Yes. Expect them to work and bring cash! That said, some of us with American cards will be arriving the Tuesday before. I'll post the results of our travels and trials . Chris. -- Chris Elliott On Apr 2, 2010, at 4:56 PM, Ralph Droms rdroms.i...@gmail.com wrote: So, with all this discussion, I'm still not clear what to expect. When I walk up to a train ticket kiosk in Schiphol, should I expect to be able to use my US-issued, non-chip credit card (AMEX, VISA - I don't care as long as *one* of them works), or should I have a fistful of Euros handy? - Ralph ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf -- -- New Website: http://hallambaker.com/ View Quantum of Stupid podcasts, Tuesday and Thursday each week, http://quantumofstupid.com/ ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
I had the same experience last summer. Lacking euros, I needed to find a teller to get on the train at Schipol. Tim On 4/5/10 9:40 AM, Mike Tibodeau tibod...@cisco.com wrote: Last time I was there you could *not* use a non-chip credit card at the train kiosks, but you could use a non-chip card in general at manned stores/vendors. At 09:35 AM 4/5/2010, Scott Brim wrote: Theodore Tso allegedly wrote on 04/03/2010 06:48 EDT: When I talked to my bank, they told me it was because of fraud problems in that country specifically; I would have needed to warn them at least a few days in advance i was planning on visiting the Netherlands for them to put my card on a special authorization list. Could someone verify that they HAVE warned their bank and successfully used credit cards at Schiphol? That that was the issue? (I've gotten cash at Schiphol but never bought a train ticket) ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On Apr 2, 2010, at 6:46 PM, Hadriel Kaplan wrote: Not to belabor this thread, but... I was in Schiphol the week before IETF Anaheim and bought a train ticket. *None* of the my cards worked (Amex, Visa, Mastercard, and a debit, and yes I tried all of them). In fact, not only did they not work at the machines, but they were not accepted at the human-based ticket counter either, despite my having a Passport and one of the cards even has my picture on it. They had a sign even warning that it wouldn't work without a PIN. It was cash only, but there is an ATM near by. I travel a lot and was quite surprised. This was my experience as well (I travel a lot, to many countries in Europe and Asia, and have never had a problem until I travelled to the Netherlands last year) --- except my ATM card didn't work, either. When I talked to my bank, they told me it was because of fraud problems in that country specifically; I would have needed to warn them at least a few days in advance i was planning on visiting the Netherlands for them to put my card on a special authorization list. Maybe all of my credit card providers (Amex, Chase, Citigroup, etc.) are losers (actually, the problem with Amex was that the train station didn't accept it, not that my Amex card didn't work. Ultimately Amex was the only card that worked for me, and I ended up getting a cash advance using my Amex card), but if I were you, I'd bring Euros, and make sure you inform your bank and credit card issuers in advance. I've never needed to do this before when traveling to other countries, and I've never had trouble getting local currency out of an ATM machine, so I had gotten complacent -- Ted ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
I'm with Joe on this. I also travel extensively, including in non-tourist areas, and have never had my US Visa or Mastercard declined because it didn't have a chip. Cheers, Andy On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Joe Abley jab...@hopcount.ca wrote: On 2010-03-31, at 20:56, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: In theory it is possible to use a US issued credit card in Europe. In practice, forget it unless you are willing to face the embarrassment of 50% of places declining your card. My experience in the UK is that outside London you are very likely to find that the only cards they accept are chip and pin cards. I travel somewhat frequently through Asia, Europe, Africa and Australasia with credit cards issued by US institutions (Bank of America Visa, American Express) and Canadian banks (TD Canada Trust, CIBC, Desjardins, all Visa cards). The Desjardins card is the only one with a chip. I occasionally find that people don't take American Express. This happens more often outside North America, but not only outside North America. I have found that in some countries (UK included) people are unfamiliar with cards that don't have a chip, but it has never stopped me from using one. (In New Zealand it seems more common that people are confused about chip cards, since the EFTPOS terminals support them but very few people have them). I have never had a problem with any of my North American cards being declined, chip or not. I have spent a reasonable amount of time in the UK in particular, since most of my family lives there. I was most recently there in December 2009. Your comments above do not match my experience in the slightest. Joe ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Well, I was living in France in spring 2005 when the chip and pin systems went live there. There was a very short period where cards without chip and pin did not work. Two days later, facing the inability to take money from foreigners, signature-based transactions were back. Sometimes (including in the UK) the shop-owner may sigh in a dramatic way as they reach for the pen, but money is money! Adrian - Original Message - From: Andrew G. Malis agma...@gmail.com To: Joe Abley jab...@hopcount.ca Cc: Phillip Hallam-Baker hal...@gmail.com; ietf@ietf.org Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 1:11 PM Subject: Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht I'm with Joe on this. I also travel extensively, including in non-tourist areas, and have never had my US Visa or Mastercard declined because it didn't have a chip. Cheers, Andy On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Joe Abley jab...@hopcount.ca wrote: On 2010-03-31, at 20:56, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: In theory it is possible to use a US issued credit card in Europe. In practice, forget it unless you are willing to face the embarrassment of 50% of places declining your card. My experience in the UK is that outside London you are very likely to find that the only cards they accept are chip and pin cards. I travel somewhat frequently through Asia, Europe, Africa and Australasia with credit cards issued by US institutions (Bank of America Visa, American Express) and Canadian banks (TD Canada Trust, CIBC, Desjardins, all Visa cards). The Desjardins card is the only one with a chip. I occasionally find that people don't take American Express. This happens more often outside North America, but not only outside North America. I have found that in some countries (UK included) people are unfamiliar with cards that don't have a chip, but it has never stopped me from using one. (In New Zealand it seems more common that people are confused about chip cards, since the EFTPOS terminals support them but very few people have them). I have never had a problem with any of my North American cards being declined, chip or not. I have spent a reasonable amount of time in the UK in particular, since most of my family lives there. I was most recently there in December 2009. Your comments above do not match my experience in the slightest. Joe ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On 02.04.2010 14:44, Adrian Farrel wrote: Well, I was living in France in spring 2005 when the chip and pin systems went live there. There was a very short period where cards without chip and pin did not work. Two days later, facing the inability to take money from foreigners, signature-based transactions were back. Sometimes (including in the UK) the shop-owner may sigh in a dramatic way as they reach for the pen, but money is money! ... The more tricky part are cases where there's nobody around to check a signature (ticket machines in Stockholm come to mind). Best regards, Julian ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On Apr 2, 2010, at 8:11 AM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: I'm with Joe on this. I also travel extensively, including in non-tourist areas, and have never had my US Visa or Mastercard declined because it didn't have a chip. At Point of Sale (e.g., restaurants, hotels, stores), no. At automated kiosks, yes. If the machine asks for a PIN in my experience my card will be declined, even if I enter my US PIN. Regards Marshall Cheers, Andy On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Joe Abley jab...@hopcount.ca wrote: On 2010-03-31, at 20:56, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: In theory it is possible to use a US issued credit card in Europe. In practice, forget it unless you are willing to face the embarrassment of 50% of places declining your card. My experience in the UK is that outside London you are very likely to find that the only cards they accept are chip and pin cards. I travel somewhat frequently through Asia, Europe, Africa and Australasia with credit cards issued by US institutions (Bank of America Visa, American Express) and Canadian banks (TD Canada Trust, CIBC, Desjardins, all Visa cards). The Desjardins card is the only one with a chip. I occasionally find that people don't take American Express. This happens more often outside North America, but not only outside North America. I have found that in some countries (UK included) people are unfamiliar with cards that don't have a chip, but it has never stopped me from using one. (In New Zealand it seems more common that people are confused about chip cards, since the EFTPOS terminals support them but very few people have them). I have never had a problem with any of my North American cards being declined, chip or not. I have spent a reasonable amount of time in the UK in particular, since most of my family lives there. I was most recently there in December 2009. Your comments above do not match my experience in the slightest. Joe ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Hi, I was living in France in spring 2005 when the chip and pin systems went live there. There was a very short period where cards without chip and pin did not work. Two days later, facing the inability to take money from foreigners, signature-based transactions were back. Sometimes (including in the UK) the shop-owner may sigh in a dramatic way as they reach for the pen, but money is money! ... The more tricky part are cases where there's nobody around to check a signature (ticket machines in Stockholm come to mind). While we are on anecdotal notes on the b0rken CC system, here's one from Germany: Signature-based CCs were - and are - rather popular here. The Chip+PIN system was introduced anyways, which is arguably a good thing. My bank wrote me a nice letter that Chip+PIN had to be put on my new card, but to ensure that I can use the card in the more convenient (WTH?) way of signing, it had been configured to offer POSes both options, but defaulting to signature. This makes sure that a) I use signature next to everywhere, which makes me forget the nevertheless existing PIN b) if some POS understands enough handshaking to choose between the two and use Chip, I'm lost because I forgot it c) if some POS insists on Chip+PIN but does not understand enough handshaking to recognise that there is more than the default sig method on the card, I won't get service. Due to that, I can not use any automatic-payment refueling stations in Luxembourg, nor rent a bike (Veloh!) in Luxembourg City. Or train ticketing machines in the UK. I'm delighted. Thanks, financials! That's it for the rant of the day, happy Easter! Stefan Winter -- Stefan WINTER Ingenieur de Recherche Fondation RESTENA - Réseau Téléinformatique de l'Education Nationale et de la Recherche 6, rue Richard Coudenhove-Kalergi L-1359 Luxembourg Tel: +352 424409 1 Fax: +352 422473 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On Fri, 2 Apr 2010, Marshall Eubanks wrote: On Apr 2, 2010, at 8:11 AM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: I'm with Joe on this. I also travel extensively, including in non-tourist areas, and have never had my US Visa or Mastercard declined because it didn't have a chip. At Point of Sale (e.g., restaurants, hotels, stores), no. At automated kiosks, yes. If the machine asks for a PIN in my experience my card will be declined, even if I enter my US PIN. Regards Marshall I have had that happen too. The last time was with an NSB train ticket machine in Lillestrøm. This was a regular non-chip MasterCard and when I later asked the card company about this they told me the machine probably did not recognize your card properly. If you are actually BUYING stuff, then entering the US PIN is futile since it is not set up to do anything beyond giving you a cash advance. Ole___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Andrew G. Malis пишет: I'm with Joe on this. I also travel extensively, including in non-tourist areas, and have never had my US Visa or Mastercard declined because it didn't have a chip. In Amsterdam there are shops (e.g. nice cheese shop ;) ) which accept only local chip cards. At the same time a lot of other shops (on Kalverstraat ;) ) accepts all kind of cards provided you have an ID. dol@ Cheers, Andy On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Joe Abley jab...@hopcount.ca wrote: On 2010-03-31, at 20:56, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: In theory it is possible to use a US issued credit card in Europe. In practice, forget it unless you are willing to face the embarrassment of 50% of places declining your card. My experience in the UK is that outside London you are very likely to find that the only cards they accept are chip and pin cards. I travel somewhat frequently through Asia, Europe, Africa and Australasia with credit cards issued by US institutions (Bank of America Visa, American Express) and Canadian banks (TD Canada Trust, CIBC, Desjardins, all Visa cards). The Desjardins card is the only one with a chip. I occasionally find that people don't take American Express. This happens more often outside North America, but not only outside North America. I have found that in some countries (UK included) people are unfamiliar with cards that don't have a chip, but it has never stopped me from using one. (In New Zealand it seems more common that people are confused about chip cards, since the EFTPOS terminals support them but very few people have them). I have never had a problem with any of my North American cards being declined, chip or not. I have spent a reasonable amount of time in the UK in particular, since most of my family lives there. I was most recently there in December 2009. Your comments above do not match my experience in the slightest. Joe ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
What Iljitsch doesn't say, and should be said, is that Maastricht is a lovely and charming place in the summer; its central square is one of the nicer places in Europe to linger over lunch or dinner. When I went I rented a car in Frankfurt and enjoyed the Autobahn experience. Not a complicated route at all. - T On Mar 28, 2010 8:45 PM, Melinda Shore melinda.sh...@gmail.com wrote: Chris Elliott wrote: Google Maps lists several restaurants in the 2-3km range walking. That's do... During meetings I appreciate opportunities to get off my can and get out of the venue but I hope there will be meal options for people who aren't able-bodied and who aren't able to walk a couple of miles during a 1.5-hour lunch break. Melinda ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.or... ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On 4/2/2010 12:18 PM, Yoav Nir wrote: Yes, but we have already concluded that lunch time is not 1.5 hours spent on going to some restaurant in lovely and charming places. Lunch is the 1.5-hour session, dedicated to bar BoFs with a sandwich to eat, in one of the regular meeting rooms. I think you are confusing some and sometimes with all and always. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
So, with all this discussion, I'm still not clear what to expect. When I walk up to a train ticket kiosk in Schiphol, should I expect to be able to use my US-issued, non-chip credit card (AMEX, VISA - I don't care as long as *one* of them works), or should I have a fistful of Euros handy? - Ralph ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On Apr 2, 2010, at 4:56 PM, Ralph Droms wrote: So, with all this discussion, I'm still not clear what to expect. When I walk up to a train ticket kiosk in Schiphol, should I expect to be able to use my US-issued, non-chip credit card (AMEX, VISA - I don't care as long as *one* of them works), or should I have a fistful of Euros handy? We need ground truth here - last time I was in Paris, I needed cash to get a metro ticket - none of my cards worked. At 10:00 AM on a Sunday, it was pretty inconvenient to find an open Bureau de Change. Marshall - Ralph ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Yes. Expect them to work and bring cash! That said, some of us with American cards will be arriving the Tuesday before. I'll post the results of our travels and trials . Chris. -- Chris Elliott On Apr 2, 2010, at 4:56 PM, Ralph Droms rdroms.i...@gmail.com wrote: So, with all this discussion, I'm still not clear what to expect. When I walk up to a train ticket kiosk in Schiphol, should I expect to be able to use my US-issued, non-chip credit card (AMEX, VISA - I don't care as long as *one* of them works), or should I have a fistful of Euros handy? - Ralph ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Ralph, On Apr 2, 2010, at 1:56 PM, Ralph Droms wrote: So, with all this discussion, I'm still not clear what to expect. When I walk up to a train ticket kiosk in Schiphol, should I expect to be able to use my US-issued, non-chip credit card (AMEX, VISA - I don't care as long as *one* of them works), or should I have a fistful of Euros handy? I propose that we identify someone, everyone send them our credit cards, they fly to AMS, and try to buy train tickets with our credit cards, and report back. Then we will know for sure. Bob p.s I wish I had sent this yesterday. p.p.s. Today's answer, your credit cards are likely to work, but it is also a good idea to have some euros. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Not to belabor this thread, but... I was in Schiphol the week before IETF Anaheim and bought a train ticket. *None* of the my cards worked (Amex, Visa, Mastercard, and a debit, and yes I tried all of them). In fact, not only did they not work at the machines, but they were not accepted at the human-based ticket counter either, despite my having a Passport and one of the cards even has my picture on it. They had a sign even warning that it wouldn't work without a PIN. It was cash only, but there is an ATM near by. I travel a lot and was quite surprised. -hadriel p.s. on the other hand they have excellent licorice and hagelslag. :) -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ralph Droms Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 4:56 PM To: IETF Discussion Subject: Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht So, with all this discussion, I'm still not clear what to expect. When I walk up to a train ticket kiosk in Schiphol, should I expect to be able to use my US-issued, non-chip credit card (AMEX, VISA - I don't care as long as *one* of them works), or should I have a fistful of Euros handy? - Ralph ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On 4/2/2010 3:46 PM, Hadriel Kaplan wrote: p.s. on the other hand they have excellent licorice and hagelslag. :) You could pay with licorice? Did they make change with fennel? d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
-Original Message- From: Dave CROCKER [mailto:d...@dcrocker.net] Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 7:02 PM To: Hadriel Kaplan On 4/2/2010 3:46 PM, Hadriel Kaplan wrote: p.s. on the other hand they have excellent licorice and hagelslag. :) You could pay with licorice? Did they make change with fennel? Don't be silly - they have licorice coins that drop out. -hadriel ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
In theory it is possible to use a US issued credit card in Europe. In practice, forget it unless you are willing to face the embarrassment of 50% of places declining your card. My experience in the UK is that outside London you are very likely to find that the only cards they accept are chip and pin cards. Now according to the VIsa and Mastercard agreements, this should not be the case. Only the UK banks could not care less what Visa and Mastercard want, they have zero intention of enforcing the requirement on merchants. They are fed up with the fact that the US banks refusal to deploy chip and pin means that they still face serious fraud losses CP has eliminated for card present transactions in the UK. The attack presented by Ross Anderson is interesting, but fixable. The hard part was insisting that everyone would use chips. As with SSL 2.0, the protocol has holes. They will be fixed. Meanwhile US cards have no security at all. I have a UK card just so I can spend money in the UK. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On 1 apr 2010, at 2:56, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: In theory it is possible to use a US issued credit card in Europe. In practice, forget it unless you are willing to face the embarrassment of 50% of places declining your card. :-) What you have to remember is that in many European countries, including the Netherlands, there is no tradition of credit card use. Rather, people use debit cards. Of course restaurants, hotels etc that cater to tourists accept them, and these days more places that sell expensive items do as well. But I would be very surprised to find a super market in the Netherlands that accepts credit cards. And credit cards are also not universally accepted in restaurants (the bigger / more expensive, the more likely they accept credit cards). So you really need to carry enough cash to at least pay for a meal and a train ticket or taxi ride. You can find ATMs with the Maestro and Cirrus logos all over the place, so this shouldn't be a problem. (Although because of lack of regulations that forbid this, you're likely to pay a hefty commision for cash withdrawals and of course your bank has to allow them.) My experience in the UK is that outside London you are very likely to find that the only cards they accept are chip and pin cards. I don't think places in the Netherlands that accept credit cards require a chip, mine didn't have one until last year. Without having been able to test this, I'd say that in any place that accepts credit cards in the Netherlands (logos on the window) you should be ok: since Dutch don't use them much and rarely if ever depend on them, places that accept them do so mainly for the convenience of international travelers. Also note that the most widely accepted credit card type is Mastercard, followed by Visa. With other cards, your milage may vary even more. I have a UK card just so I can spend money in the UK. Even when traveling in the EU with a card from a different EU country you can encounter refusals in non-tourist places, but at least when it works the charges (if any) are reasonable. (In fact I can withdraw money for free from all Spanish ATMs with my Dutch debit card but with the Spanish one, ATMs from banks other than my own cost me 50 cents.) ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On 2010-03-31, at 20:56, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: In theory it is possible to use a US issued credit card in Europe. In practice, forget it unless you are willing to face the embarrassment of 50% of places declining your card. My experience in the UK is that outside London you are very likely to find that the only cards they accept are chip and pin cards. I travel somewhat frequently through Asia, Europe, Africa and Australasia with credit cards issued by US institutions (Bank of America Visa, American Express) and Canadian banks (TD Canada Trust, CIBC, Desjardins, all Visa cards). The Desjardins card is the only one with a chip. I occasionally find that people don't take American Express. This happens more often outside North America, but not only outside North America. I have found that in some countries (UK included) people are unfamiliar with cards that don't have a chip, but it has never stopped me from using one. (In New Zealand it seems more common that people are confused about chip cards, since the EFTPOS terminals support them but very few people have them). I have never had a problem with any of my North American cards being declined, chip or not. I have spent a reasonable amount of time in the UK in particular, since most of my family lives there. I was most recently there in December 2009. Your comments above do not match my experience in the slightest. Joe ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On 3/30/2010 9:09 PM, Dean Willis wrote: On Mar 30, 2010, at 4:55 AM, Robert Kisteleki wrote: On 2010.03.30. 11:41, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: I'll prepare information about all of this as soon as I know the transition status during the IETF week. And in any event, there are no early booking / online booking discounts for Dutch train tickets, and buying online with Dutch Railways requires the iDEAL payment system that only Dutch banks use. That reminds me: if you intend to use a credit card in electronic contexts (such as buying train tickets at a machine, etc.), you should make sure you know your PIN code. On the way home from Anaheim I helped some guy who had some problems because he wasn't even aware that his card had a PIN code. Many US cards do not work in point-of-sale applications in Europe even if one knows the PIN code. Last Spring, I had 6 US bank cards and a SwissPost card rejected at the train kiosk in Amsterdam, and I believe the same 6 failed at whatever IETF we last went to in Europe, because I recall borrowing train tickets from Ole. SO the answer is to call the card provider and make sure they will honor your charges in that foreign country. This is actually a really good idea since for personal cards they (the Card Provider) bear all of the risk so they are locking down out-of-area charges for personal cards as much as possible. The solution is to keep your card company informed of your travel plans, or get a card which is intended for that purpose. Todd -- Dean ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf attachment: tglassey.vcf___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Dear folks, Please be advised that a special IETF 78 host website is available that already contains quite some information and practicalities: http://www.ietf78.nl/. More information will be added as it becomes available. If you are missing specific things, or have any other concerns, please do not hesitate to contact the IETF78 webmaster at iet...@sidn.nl. I am sure the people of SIDN will be more than glad to provide you with an answer and put it on the website as well if the information is of general interest. Oh, and there is also a Twitter channel: http://twitter.com/ietf78, in case you might be interested. :-) Regards, -- Marco Davids ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On 30 mrt 2010, at 10:15, Marco Davids (Prive) wrote: http://www.ietf78.nl/. Ok, one thing: I strongly recommend AGAINST purchasing any _Dutch_ train tickets before you travel. (This does not apply to international train tickets!) The Nethelands is currently making a transition from paper tickets to RFID card based payment (OV-chipkaart, similar to the London oyster card) for all forms of public transport. Depending on how this proceeds the coming months it may be both cheaper and more convenient to get one of those RFID cards to pay for your train journey as well as the bus in Maastricht and public transport elsewhere in the Netherlands, especially Rotterdam (all forms of public transport) and Amsterdam (the metro) where paper tickets are no longer valid. I'll prepare information about all of this as soon as I know the transition status during the IETF week. And in any event, there are no early booking / online booking discounts for Dutch train tickets, and buying online with Dutch Railways requires the iDEAL payment system that only Dutch banks use. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On 2010.03.30. 11:41, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: I'll prepare information about all of this as soon as I know the transition status during the IETF week. And in any event, there are no early booking / online booking discounts for Dutch train tickets, and buying online with Dutch Railways requires the iDEAL payment system that only Dutch banks use. That reminds me: if you intend to use a credit card in electronic contexts (such as buying train tickets at a machine, etc.), you should make sure you know your PIN code. On the way home from Anaheim I helped some guy who had some problems because he wasn't even aware that his card had a PIN code. Robert ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
That reminds me: if you intend to use a credit card in electronic contexts (such as buying train tickets at a machine, etc.), you should make sure you know your PIN code. On the way home from Anaheim I helped some guy who had some problems because he wasn't even aware that his card had a PIN code. Not sure if this applies to Americans, but when I lived in Canada, I had a 5 or 6 digit pin code, but internationally, pin codes are only 4 digits. If you have a longer pin code, change it to a 4 digit one before travelling. --Michael Dillon 2 years ago I was back in Canada, visiting, and in a small restaurant, I noticed the familiar chip and pin reader. When I remarked on it, they said it was a new system that was coming in but even the bank didn't know how it worked yet. I said, let me show you and paid for the meal with my UK chip and pin card. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
The PIN codes issued by US banks are for cash advances only, they are NOT the required PIN code that European credit cards use and won't work if you try to use them for a regular credit card payment. US cards do not (in general) require a PIN code for credit card payments. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj On Tue, 30 Mar 2010, Robert Kisteleki wrote: On 2010.03.30. 11:41, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: I'll prepare information about all of this as soon as I know the transition status during the IETF week. And in any event, there are no early booking / online booking discounts for Dutch train tickets, and buying online with Dutch Railways requires the iDEAL payment system that only Dutch banks use. That reminds me: if you intend to use a credit card in electronic contexts (such as buying train tickets at a machine, etc.), you should make sure you know your PIN code. On the way home from Anaheim I helped some guy who had some problems because he wasn't even aware that his card had a PIN code. Robert ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Again, for US cards, these PIN codes apply to either ATM cards or for credit card cash advances (using your credit card as an [expensive] ATM card). Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj On Tue, 30 Mar 2010, Michael Dillon wrote: That reminds me: if you intend to use a credit card in electronic contexts (such as buying train tickets at a machine, etc.), you should make sure you know your PIN code. On the way home from Anaheim I helped some guy who had some problems because he wasn't even aware that his card had a PIN code. Not sure if this applies to Americans, but when I lived in Canada, I had a 5 or 6 digit pin code, but internationally, pin codes are only 4 digits. If you have a longer pin code, change it to a 4 digit one before travelling. --Michael Dillon 2 years ago I was back in Canada, visiting, and in a small restaurant, I noticed the familiar chip and pin reader. When I remarked on it, they said it was a new system that was coming in but even the bank didn't know how it worked yet. I said, let me show you and paid for the meal with my UK chip and pin card. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Ole Jacobsen пишет: The PIN codes issued by US banks are for cash advances only, they are NOT the required PIN code that European credit cards use and won't work if you try to use them for a regular credit card payment. US cards do not (in general) require a PIN code for credit card payments. When you pay with _credit_card_ to Dutch railway ticket machines you will be asked to enter PIN code (I always do so, when I am in Amsterdam). In that aspect these machines are working like ATMs. This is a Netherlands specific, I have never seen such ticket machine behavior in other countries. Btw, if you use credit card, you will be surcharged E0,50 per ticket. OV-chipkaart logo is already seen on some ticket machines, so I would be glad to get an advice where and how these chipkaarts can be bought and where it can be used except for train tickets purchase. TIA, dol@ Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj On Tue, 30 Mar 2010, Robert Kisteleki wrote: On 2010.03.30. 11:41, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: I'll prepare information about all of this as soon as I know the transition status during the IETF week. And in any event, there are no early booking / online booking discounts for Dutch train tickets, and buying online with Dutch Railways requires the iDEAL payment system that only Dutch banks use. That reminds me: if you intend to use a credit card in electronic contexts (such as buying train tickets at a machine, etc.), you should make sure you know your PIN code. On the way home from Anaheim I helped some guy who had some problems because he wasn't even aware that his card had a PIN code. Robert ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 11:37:17AM +, Michael Dillon wrote: Not sure if this applies to Americans, but when I lived in Canada, I had a 5 or 6 digit pin code I don't know about other banks, but I used to have a 6 digit PIN with the Royal Bank of Canada. They made me change it a couple years ago, I think because the chip-and-pin system was on its way. So at least RBC won't let you create PINs longer than 4 digits any more. A -- Andrew Sullivan a...@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
I'd recommend telling your bank and your credit card issuers that you are planning on traveling to The Netherlands at least a week or two in advance. My ATM card and two of my credit cards had a policy last year of declining all charges from that country due to large amounts of ATM/credit card fraud several years ago. Of course, I only found that out after the conference closed and I had absolutely no way of purchasing a train ticket back to Amsterdam I ended having to walk for a mile or two to find a post office to change US Dollars to Euros, since the only credit card that I had that worked in The Netherlands was my American Express card, and (a) I didn't know its pin number, and (b) it was accepted at the train station. (And when I called my bank to get my ATM card authorized for The Netherlands, they told me it would take 24-36 hours, and I wasn't going to be in the country that long. Very Frustrating.) My fault for not having a secondary backup of traveling with a hundred dollars of Euro bills, of course, which is now my standard policy. I had gotten spoiled with having my ATM card work everywhere.. -- Ted ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
OV-chipkaart logo is already seen on some ticket machines, so I would be glad to get an advice where and how these chipkaarts can be bought and where it can be used except for train tickets purchase. Have a look at http://www.ov-chipkaart.nl/?taal=en. Maybe the iet...@sidn.nl can add a link on the ietf78 site to this. jaap ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On 2010-03-30, at 09:49, Theodore Tso wrote: I'd recommend telling your bank and your credit card issuers that you are planning on traveling to The Netherlands at least a week or two in advance. I'd recommend that someone creates the 78-attendees list right now, so that all this list traffic can migrate there. Joe ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On 30 mrt 2010, at 15:39, Basil Dolmatov wrote: OV-chipkaart logo is already seen on some ticket machines, so I would be glad to get an advice where and how these chipkaarts can be bought and where it can be used except for train tickets purchase. (Plural of chipkaart is chipkaarten, or use chipcards, but please not chipkaarts. In Dutch most words are pluralized with -en, some with -s.) The OV-chipkaart (OV = openbaar vervoer = public transport, kaart = card) is supposed to be rolled out in the province of Limburg, of which Maastricht is the capital, this summer. If that happens, I will recommend anyone traveling through Schiphol to get one. The existing paper bus/tram tickets are not all that user friendly, some trips require invalidation of two strips, others three. With the chipcard you check in when you enter the bus and check out when you leave, no need to know about zone boundaries etc or master Dutch/Limburgs to the degree that the bus driver understands you when you tell him/her your stop. The chipkaart costs 7,50 euros but the train trip between Schiphol and Maastricht is 5,85 euros cheaper with the chipkaart than with a paper ticket so you still come out ahead. You can get one from the ticket machines I believe but it probably makes more sense to buy one at the ticket counter and ask them to charge the card with the right amount of credit so you don't run out too soon or get stuck with too much left. You also need to specify whether you want to travel first or second class before you can use it in the train. I'll compile detailed instructions in july. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On Tue, 30 Mar 2010, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: The chipkaart costs 7,50 euros but the train trip between Schiphol and Maastricht is 5,85 euros cheaper with the chipkaart than with a paper ticket so you still come out ahead. You can get one from the ticket machines I believe but it probably makes more sense to buy one at the ticket counter and ask them to charge the card with the right amount of credit so you don't run out too soon or get stuck with too much left. Using the counter will cost you 1,50 extra right? So not sure about coming out ahead. You will also forget to check out causing your card to be drained immediately. Been there, done that, have the empty cards... I'll compile detailed instructions in july. Today there was an article about faking the cards on dutch news, but the article vanished. Could be a prelude to April 1st. Paul ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
When you pay with _credit_card_ to Dutch railway ticket machines you will be asked to enter PIN code ... European credit cards have an embedded chip that does a crypto handshake using your PIN with the bank to validate the transaction. This process is known in English as chip+pin and is considered equivalent to a manual signature. There are, as far as I know, no US banks currently issuing cards with chips, which means your US card won't work in a ticket machine that requires a PIN, even if your card has a PIN that works to get cash at an ATM. For over the counter transactions, the machine that clerks use can typically handle both chip+pin and swipe with signature transactions. R's, John PS: See the Light Blue Touchpaper blog at the University of Cambridge for more than you ever imagined about how screwed up the implementation of chip+pin is. But it's what all the banks in Europe use. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
This is only true for EUROPEAN issued credit cards (some of which have chips and some which don't). You can get a PIN for your US credit card, but it will NOT work for credit card purchases, only as your PIN for cash advances (like an ATM card). There is no PIN required when using US-based cards for purchases, and if you are asked to provide one, the PIN you have been given for cash advances will NOT work. Yes, it is confusing to say the least. I agree that we should move this to a new list: ietf-78 which I hereby ask Ray to create. Ole On Tue, 30 Mar 2010, Dmitry Burkov wrote: Wrong - cards - both as credits and debits work without any chips - only PIN required - Visa and Mastercard. Dima ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
I'm not sure I understand what problem we're solving by setting up IETF meeting-specific mailing lists each time. It's not like most of the attendees at IETF 77 weren't at at least one meeting in the previous year, and if there is a population on earth that we should expect to be able to unsubscribe from mailing lists when they aren't relevant to us, it's IETF attendees. Maybe an ietf-meeting-attendees mailing list, and be done with it? Spencer Yes, it is confusing to say the least. I agree that we should move this to a new list: ietf-78 which I hereby ask Ray to create. Ole On Tue, 30 Mar 2010, Dmitry Burkov wrote: Wrong - cards - both as credits and debits work without any chips - only PIN required - Visa and Mastercard. Dima ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Spencer, This practice was started because the main IETF list got flooded with messages like where is the nearest Apple store? once we were onsite and this annoyed the folks who weren't actually at the meeting. Having it (opt-in) on a per-meeting basis makes sense to me, if we create the list in advance of the meeting (pre-registration), I guess we'd have to figure out some subscription mechanims (like you will be auto-subscribed once you post your first message to ietf-xx or something like that.) I can see a lot of value in having a list created well in advance to answer questions such as visa and transportation. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj On Tue, 30 Mar 2010, Spencer Dawkins wrote: I'm not sure I understand what problem we're solving by setting up IETF meeting-specific mailing lists each time. It's not like most of the attendees at IETF 77 weren't at at least one meeting in the previous year, and if there is a population on earth that we should expect to be able to unsubscribe from mailing lists when they aren't relevant to us, it's IETF attendees. Maybe an ietf-meeting-attendees mailing list, and be done with it? Spencer ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Hi, Ole, I'm still having coherency problems after IETF 77 - sorry. What I was wondering wasn't why there is an attendees list (I remember the where is the nearest Apple store discussions that resulted in current practice). What I'm wondering is why we continue to set up 76attendees, 77attendees, 78attendees, and not something like ietf-attendees. Whatever current practice is on opt-in, and on pretty much everything else about the way the NNattendees lists are handled, seems to be fine. I'm remembering that we were already getting information about Hiroshima (IETF 76) posted prior to IETF 75 (including very helpful material from you), and we had some discussions about the IETF 78 site that started soon after IETF 76. If we have 70-percent turnover in who's subscribed to each ietf meeting-specific list, having ietf meeting-specific lists makes sense, but if it's 70-percent the same people each time, why not have one list that we use for all site-specific topics, so if someone were to have something helpful to say about IETF 79 in Beijing now, there would be an obvious place to put it, and an equally obvious place to look for it in a few months when people are making travel arrangements? Just a thought... Spencer Spencer, This practice was started because the main IETF list got flooded with messages like where is the nearest Apple store? once we were onsite and this annoyed the folks who weren't actually at the meeting. Having it (opt-in) on a per-meeting basis makes sense to me, if we create the list in advance of the meeting (pre-registration), I guess we'd have to figure out some subscription mechanims (like you will be auto-subscribed once you post your first message to ietf-xx or something like that.) I can see a lot of value in having a list created well in advance to answer questions such as visa and transportation. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj On Tue, 30 Mar 2010, Spencer Dawkins wrote: I'm not sure I understand what problem we're solving by setting up IETF meeting-specific mailing lists each time. It's not like most of the attendees at IETF 77 weren't at at least one meeting in the previous year, and if there is a population on earth that we should expect to be able to unsubscribe from mailing lists when they aren't relevant to us, it's IETF attendees. Maybe an ietf-meeting-attendees mailing list, and be done with it? Spencer ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
I live in Germany, and I had ordered all the Credit cards (Master and Visa) which I used during 1994-2008 explicitly _without_ PIN -- because I did _NOT_ want them to be usable to draw cash from an ATM, only for signature based transactions. Going into a bank and obtaining cash with card, picture-ID and signature was still possible. Paying in restaurants and shops, hotels and rental cars is also possible with only signature-based transacations. I have never seen a credit card purchase with PIN. Have Visa/MasterCard/etc. come up with additional payment options like Maestro, ElectronicCash and the stuff that you have on traditional ATM cards? -Martin Ole Jacobsen wrote: This is only true for EUROPEAN issued credit cards (some of which have chips and some which don't). You can get a PIN for your US credit card, but it will NOT work for credit card purchases, only as your PIN for cash advances (like an ATM card). There is no PIN required when using US-based cards for purchases, and if you are asked to provide one, the PIN you have been given for cash advances will NOT work. Yes, it is confusing to say the least. I agree that we should move this to a new list: ietf-78 which I hereby ask Ray to create. Ole On Tue, 30 Mar 2010, Dmitry Burkov wrote: Wrong - cards - both as credits and debits work without any chips - only PIN required - Visa and Mastercard. Dima ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
I have never seen a credit card purchase with PIN. In the UK, all credit card purchases use a PIN with Chip-and-PIN cards except when their network link is down or your card is registered as signature-only. Some elderly and disabled people have the signature-only option, and foreigners too, of course. Debit cards, however, can be used without a PIN in certain circumstances. A few years back, I forgot my PIN code after changing it and promptly spending a month abroad. Back in the UK, I paid at the supermarket with the debit card, and asked for 10 or 20 quid cashback. No PIN, no problems. I think they have changed that now, and my latest debit card came with a notice that it can be used PIN-free for purchases under 10 pounds. This uses the RFID in the card and only works at retailers like Caffe Nero, who have installed the RFID readers. It's basically the same as the Oystercard used for riding the tube, and in fact, many people have a special Oystercard (perhaps with extra RFID) that works in coffeeshops too. --Michael Dillon ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
I think they have changed that now, and my latest debit card came with a notice that it can be used PIN-free for purchases under 10 pounds. This uses the RFID in the card and only works at retailers like Caffe Nero, who have installed the RFID readers. Adding to the confusion, although there are no contact chip cards in the US, we do have contactless MasterCard (Paypass), Visa (Paywave), and American Express (Express Pay) cards. But you still don't use a PIN when you pay, either you just tap it if the amount is small, or you tap and then sign. R's, John ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On Mar 30, 2010, at 4:55 AM, Robert Kisteleki wrote: On 2010.03.30. 11:41, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: I'll prepare information about all of this as soon as I know the transition status during the IETF week. And in any event, there are no early booking / online booking discounts for Dutch train tickets, and buying online with Dutch Railways requires the iDEAL payment system that only Dutch banks use. That reminds me: if you intend to use a credit card in electronic contexts (such as buying train tickets at a machine, etc.), you should make sure you know your PIN code. On the way home from Anaheim I helped some guy who had some problems because he wasn't even aware that his card had a PIN code. Many US cards do not work in point-of-sale applications in Europe even if one knows the PIN code. Last Spring, I had 6 US bank cards and a SwissPost card rejected at the train kiosk in Amsterdam, and I believe the same 6 failed at whatever IETF we last went to in Europe, because I recall borrowing train tickets from Ole. -- Dean ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
- Original Message - From: Chris Elliott chell...@pobox.com To: Richard Barnes rbar...@bbn.com Cc: IAOC i...@ietf.org; Iljitsch van Beijnum iljit...@muada.com; IETF-Discussion Discussion ietf@ietf.org Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 11:03 AM Subject: Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht Richard, The site for the IETF in Dublin was easily an order of magnitude farther from the city center than the MECC. In Dublin, there are few places where we can have something to be eaten. very inconvenient. If IETF or the host can arrange some shuttle bus to the nearby restaurant, that will be perfect. or more bikes; or someone opens the temporary restaurant for IETFers. :) Google Maps lists several restaurants in the 2-3km range walking. That's doable even by an overweight out-of-shape American like me with the normal 1.5 hours for lunch. Would do me good to spend more time walking than eating. We could even advertise the meeting as a easy to moderate workout week! I like the idea of rental bikes, but I suspect they may sell out faster than rooms in the attached hotel... Enjoy! Chris. -- Chris Elliott On Mar 28, 2010, at 9:55 PM, Richard Barnes rbar...@bbn.com wrote: [Added IAOC] Iljitsch: Thanks very much for this information. I was not aware of this: The MECC conference center is 2 - 3 kilometers from the city center, where the restaurants are. IAOC: I had been getting used to the idea of Maastricht, with it being historic, nice city center and all. Iljitsch's observation makes me wonder if we learned nothing from Dublin, and are now choosing IETF venues from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_points_of_the_World#Remoteness --Richard P.S. WTFIAOC is worth 65 points in Scrabble. 69 points in the Dutch edition! Ground transport: Maastricht is located in the far southeast of the Netherlands, 215 km (by road) from Amsterdam. The city is located on the Belgian border and is also very close to Germany. There are some smaller airports closer to Maastricht than the ones mentioned below, but those don't serve many destinations and don't connect to the rail network so more hassle and as much or more time to reach Maastricht despite the shorter distance. Only consider these smaller airports if you know what you're doing. You can of course rent a car at one of the airports and drive to Maastricht, and even commute between the MECC and your hotel by car if the hotel is located outside the inner city, but you'll probably need to get into the city for dinner anyway and being a few thousand years old, Maastricht's city center isn't really built for cars. The most convenient airport to use would be Schiphol (Amsterdam) airport. From there, it takes about 2 hours, 35 minutes with one change to get to Maastricht by train with a connection every 30 minutes. A second class one way ticket is 27.50 euros. The last train from Schiphol to Maastricht is at 22:16. The first train to Schiphol arrives at nine. A good alternative is Brussels, from where Maastricht is about two hours with one or two changes and one connection per hour with regular national and international trains. The last connection to Maastricht is at around 21:39. The first train to Brussels airport arrives at nine on weekdays, ten on weekends. There are also a few high speed train connections which save you 30 minutes. If you're arriving in Europe through Frankfurt or Paris, it may not make too much sense to first connect to Amsterdam or Brussels and then sit in a train for a few more hours. You may as well take the train directly from these airports to Maastricht. However, consider that missing train/plane connections is your problem, while plane/ plane connections are the airline's problem. (Financially, at least.) From Frankfurt, there is one connection per hour (weekdays) or one every two hours (weekends) that takes 4 hours, 46 minutes with regular national and international trains. The last connection to Maastricht without high speed trains leaves at around 18:22. The first connection to FRA without high speed trains arrives at 13:36. From Frankfurt it is (of course) faster to take a high speed train, and from Paris it's the only option. The downside of high speed trains is that you can't just hop on like on a regular train, you need to book or reserve a seat on a specific train. Also, they run less often so if you miss one, you're in big trouble. Also check prices before you book (usually available 90 days before the travel date), international trains in general and especially high speed trains can be quite expensive. From Frankfurt, there is an ICE connection several times a day that takes between 3 hours and 3 hours 41 minutes with 2 or 3 changes. The last connection to Maastricht is at 21:09. The first connection
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On Mar 29, 2010, at 00:56, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: From Frankfurt it is (of course) faster to take a high speed train, and from Paris it's the only option. The downside of high speed trains is that you can't just hop on like on a regular train, you need to book or reserve a seat on a specific train. Also, they run less often so if you miss one, you're in big trouble. Small correction: The need to reserve in advance is specific to the train type being used. Almost all ICE trains (like you would use from Frankfurt) have no requirement for advance reservation. I'd still recommend to spend the 3 EUR for a reserved seat on the train you are likely to make, but if you miss it, you just hop on the next train (with the only consequence being that you don't have a reserved seat, which may be a problem on Friday or Sunday afternoon/evening in second class). Fast trains are regular in Germany (usually once per hour). (Yes, there are special prices for tickets that *are* bound to a specific train; these are too much gambling when you come in by plane -- just book a normal ticket.) www.bahn.de allows you to see what's available *and* to buy tickets, which you print yourself. Choose your preferred language in the top row. Gruesse, Carsten ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On 29/03/2010 04:37, Michael Richardson wrote: Richard == Richard Barnesrbar...@bbn.com writes: The MECC conference center is 2 - 3 kilometers from the city center, where the restaurants are. Richard IAOC: I had been getting used to the idea of Maastricht, Richard with it being historic, nice city center and all. Richard Iljitsch's observation makes me wonder if we learned http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=dsource=s_dsaddr=Forum+100,+6229+GV+Maastricht,+Netherlands+(Maastrichts+Expositie+%26+Congres+Centrum+(Mecc)+B.V.)daddr=Maastrichthl=engeocode=FTC4BwMdrC9XACH4LXENCJiY-w%3BFTfoBwMd28dWACmTO154tunARzHmk2QWU-RsTAmra=ccdirflg=wsll=50.843475,5.696705sspn=0.022709,0.043559ie=UTF8t=hz=15 it appears one has to cross the river? Iljitsch can you confirm the end points are reasonable? I'd disagree on the starting point. The MECC is a huge complex, when walking and going North-west (to the city center), I'd leave through the north-western exit, not the south-eastern one as on your map. This is where it says Kennedy Singel on your map. That save you about half a kilometer. For the end point. Yes, it is correct that the Vrijthof is the main square of the city. However, when going for food, you do not have to go as far as that. Cross the river one bridge more to the south (the pedestrian/bicycle bridge near Centre Ceramique) and walk your way through the maze of little streets in the direction of Vrijthof. By the time you get there, you must have passed at least 50 restaurants in all price categories starting at McDonalds and ending at 2 options with multiple Michelin stars. Finally, the MECC has a quite reasonable restaurant for lunch. I never felt the need to go to town for lunch. Henk -- -- Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.xs4all.nl/~henku P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The NetherlandsThe NetherlandsMobile: +31.6.55861746 -- Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public. H.L.Mencken ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Note: I unintentionally wrote off some German airports that _may_ be suitable for travel to Maastricht, such as Cologne/Köln. But be careful with any of the smaller airports in the region, check ground transportation before you book or you may be in for nasty surprises. On 29 mrt 2010, at 4:37, Michael Richardson wrote: Richard IAOC: I had been getting used to the idea of Maastricht, Richard with it being historic, nice city center and all. Richard Iljitsch's observation makes me wonder if we learned it appears one has to cross the river? Iljitsch can you confirm the end points are reasonable? Looking at the street map, I think that there are might be many closer restaurants, such as on Wycker Brugstraat. I wasn't in Dublin, so I don't know the issue there. Was the problem like in Vienna? In Dublin, we were outside the city, with travel times by car or bus of 30 or more minutes. However, some impromptu lunch facilities were set up at the venue so those who didn't have time for a real lunch could buy a sandwich or two. I don't remember what I did for lunch in Vienna, but there there was good public transport. In Maastricht the situation will be different from both: because it's a small city, public transport isn't very high frequency / high capacity, but we'll be within walking distance of the city center, so for _dinner_ this shouldn't be a problem. It's just that in my opinion, it's not doable to have a decent lunch within 1.5 hours if you have to walk 4 km. (Also note that going out for lunch isn't as common in the Netherlands as elsewhere, not every restaurant serves lunch.) Like Henk said, the Vrijthof is considered the center square of the city, but you don't have to go all the way there, once you get closer to the main railway station there should be places to eat. And the maas (meuse) river isn't quite as wide here as it gets in Rotterdam, it doesn't take the whole day to cross it. :-) ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On Mar 29, 2010, at 12:05, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: suitable for travel to Maastricht, such as Cologne/Köln More useful from, say, the US (often surprisingly inexpensive), and quite reasonably connected to Maastricht: Duesseldorf (DUS). I'd probably look for BRU, DUS, AMS, FRA (in that order, but all four are fine connection-wise). Gruesse, Carsten ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On 29/03/2010 12:05, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: In Maastricht the situation will be different from both: because it's a small city, public transport isn't very high frequency / high capacity, but we'll be within walking distance of the city center, There are 3 bus-lines passing by the MECC, going to central station and then the city center in +/- 10-15 minutes. The lines all run a 15min schedule during the day, so that averages a bus every 5 minutes. Henk -- -- Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.xs4all.nl/~henku P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The NetherlandsThe NetherlandsMobile: +31.6.55861746 -- Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public. H.L.Mencken ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
In Vienna there were lots of semi-open-air restaurants along the Danube, very close to the meeting site. I remember particularly good fried sardines- something I rarely find in the US. Janet ietf-boun...@ietf.org wrote on 03/29/2010 06:05:47 AM: [image removed] Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht Iljitsch van Beijnum I don't remember what I did for lunch in Vienna, but there there was good public transport. I ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
For what it's worth... I wasn't in Dublin, so I don't know the issue there. Was the problem like in Vienna? For me, the issue in Dublin wasn't that there were no places to eat, but that there were very few places to eat, and they were small, and we filled them up. I could walk, eat lunch, and return in 1.5 hours, but couldn't stand around waiting to be seated, or wandering around to other places to eat, and discovering that they were also full. So I ate in the hotel in Dublin much more than I prefer at an IETF. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Even though many of you are still fighting jet lag, it's never too soon to start thinking about the next IETF meeting! Below some musings on how to get to Maastricht from various airports to aid those who want to book their plane and possibly train tickets. Lunch: But before that: Maastricht is the Netherlands' 19th largest city, about the same size as Ann Arbor. (Just over 100k inhabitants.) The MECC conference center is 2 - 3 kilometers from the city center, where the restaurants are. That's too far to walk for lunch, and I doubt the city busses or taxis are up to the task of transporting a thousand hungry IETF'ers back and fro in the alotted time, either. So it would be very good if lunch arrangements similar to those in Dublin could be made. Ground transport: Maastricht is located in the far southeast of the Netherlands, 215 km (by road) from Amsterdam. The city is located on the Belgian border and is also very close to Germany. There are some smaller airports closer to Maastricht than the ones mentioned below, but those don't serve many destinations and don't connect to the rail network so more hassle and as much or more time to reach Maastricht despite the shorter distance. Only consider these smaller airports if you know what you're doing. You can of course rent a car at one of the airports and drive to Maastricht, and even commute between the MECC and your hotel by car if the hotel is located outside the inner city, but you'll probably need to get into the city for dinner anyway and being a few thousand years old, Maastricht's city center isn't really built for cars. The most convenient airport to use would be Schiphol (Amsterdam) airport. From there, it takes about 2 hours, 35 minutes with one change to get to Maastricht by train with a connection every 30 minutes. A second class one way ticket is 27.50 euros. The last train from Schiphol to Maastricht is at 22:16. The first train to Schiphol arrives at nine. A good alternative is Brussels, from where Maastricht is about two hours with one or two changes and one connection per hour with regular national and international trains. The last connection to Maastricht is at around 21:39. The first train to Brussels airport arrives at nine on weekdays, ten on weekends. There are also a few high speed train connections which save you 30 minutes. If you're arriving in Europe through Frankfurt or Paris, it may not make too much sense to first connect to Amsterdam or Brussels and then sit in a train for a few more hours. You may as well take the train directly from these airports to Maastricht. However, consider that missing train/plane connections is your problem, while plane/plane connections are the airline's problem. (Financially, at least.) From Frankfurt, there is one connection per hour (weekdays) or one every two hours (weekends) that takes 4 hours, 46 minutes with regular national and international trains. The last connection to Maastricht without high speed trains leaves at around 18:22. The first connection to FRA without high speed trains arrives at 13:36. From Frankfurt it is (of course) faster to take a high speed train, and from Paris it's the only option. The downside of high speed trains is that you can't just hop on like on a regular train, you need to book or reserve a seat on a specific train. Also, they run less often so if you miss one, you're in big trouble. Also check prices before you book (usually available 90 days before the travel date), international trains in general and especially high speed trains can be quite expensive. From Frankfurt, there is an ICE connection several times a day that takes between 3 hours and 3 hours 41 minutes with 2 or 3 changes. The last connection to Maastricht is at 21:09. The first connection to FRA arrives at 10:16, 11:51 on sundays. From Paris, there is a thalys connection every two hours or so in the weekend and a bit more often during weekdays. The journey takes between 3 hours, 15 minutes and 4 hours, 10 minutes, with one or two changes. The last connection to Maastricht is at 20:04 on weekdays and 18:49 on weekends. On weekdays, the first train to CDG arrives at 10:44, on the weekends 11:36. You can also get from Heathrow to Maastricht in 5 to 6 hours with 2 or 3 changes, but as the last connection from Heathrow is around five and from Maastricht the first one arrives at around noon (two hours later on weekends), this seriously limits your flight options. The best place to investigate rail connections is http://www.bahn.de/ You may also want to check the website of NS, the Dutch railways: http://www.ns.nl/ (but only for Dutch trips, their international planner is incomplete and will often only show longer and more expensive options) and http://www.maastrichtbrusselexpress.nl/ I have no recommendations on where to book train tickets. From Schiphol, the recommended way to get to Maastricht is with a change in Utrecht. Don't
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
[Added IAOC] Iljitsch: Thanks very much for this information. I was not aware of this: The MECC conference center is 2 - 3 kilometers from the city center, where the restaurants are. IAOC: I had been getting used to the idea of Maastricht, with it being historic, nice city center and all. Iljitsch's observation makes me wonder if we learned nothing from Dublin, and are now choosing IETF venues from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_points_of_the_World#Remoteness --Richard P.S. WTFIAOC is worth 65 points in Scrabble. 69 points in the Dutch edition! Ground transport: Maastricht is located in the far southeast of the Netherlands, 215 km (by road) from Amsterdam. The city is located on the Belgian border and is also very close to Germany. There are some smaller airports closer to Maastricht than the ones mentioned below, but those don't serve many destinations and don't connect to the rail network so more hassle and as much or more time to reach Maastricht despite the shorter distance. Only consider these smaller airports if you know what you're doing. You can of course rent a car at one of the airports and drive to Maastricht, and even commute between the MECC and your hotel by car if the hotel is located outside the inner city, but you'll probably need to get into the city for dinner anyway and being a few thousand years old, Maastricht's city center isn't really built for cars. The most convenient airport to use would be Schiphol (Amsterdam) airport. From there, it takes about 2 hours, 35 minutes with one change to get to Maastricht by train with a connection every 30 minutes. A second class one way ticket is 27.50 euros. The last train from Schiphol to Maastricht is at 22:16. The first train to Schiphol arrives at nine. A good alternative is Brussels, from where Maastricht is about two hours with one or two changes and one connection per hour with regular national and international trains. The last connection to Maastricht is at around 21:39. The first train to Brussels airport arrives at nine on weekdays, ten on weekends. There are also a few high speed train connections which save you 30 minutes. If you're arriving in Europe through Frankfurt or Paris, it may not make too much sense to first connect to Amsterdam or Brussels and then sit in a train for a few more hours. You may as well take the train directly from these airports to Maastricht. However, consider that missing train/plane connections is your problem, while plane/ plane connections are the airline's problem. (Financially, at least.) From Frankfurt, there is one connection per hour (weekdays) or one every two hours (weekends) that takes 4 hours, 46 minutes with regular national and international trains. The last connection to Maastricht without high speed trains leaves at around 18:22. The first connection to FRA without high speed trains arrives at 13:36. From Frankfurt it is (of course) faster to take a high speed train, and from Paris it's the only option. The downside of high speed trains is that you can't just hop on like on a regular train, you need to book or reserve a seat on a specific train. Also, they run less often so if you miss one, you're in big trouble. Also check prices before you book (usually available 90 days before the travel date), international trains in general and especially high speed trains can be quite expensive. From Frankfurt, there is an ICE connection several times a day that takes between 3 hours and 3 hours 41 minutes with 2 or 3 changes. The last connection to Maastricht is at 21:09. The first connection to FRA arrives at 10:16, 11:51 on sundays. From Paris, there is a thalys connection every two hours or so in the weekend and a bit more often during weekdays. The journey takes between 3 hours, 15 minutes and 4 hours, 10 minutes, with one or two changes. The last connection to Maastricht is at 20:04 on weekdays and 18:49 on weekends. On weekdays, the first train to CDG arrives at 10:44, on the weekends 11:36. You can also get from Heathrow to Maastricht in 5 to 6 hours with 2 or 3 changes, but as the last connection from Heathrow is around five and from Maastricht the first one arrives at around noon (two hours later on weekends), this seriously limits your flight options. The best place to investigate rail connections is http:// www.bahn.de/ You may also want to check the website of NS, the Dutch railways: http://www.ns.nl/ (but only for Dutch trips, their international planner is incomplete and will often only show longer and more expensive options) and http://www.maastrichtbrusselexpress.nl/ I have no recommendations on where to book train tickets. From Schiphol, the recommended way to get to Maastricht is with a change in Utrecht. Don't go through Amsterdam, it takes longer and it's not covered by a regular ticket. From London, Paris and
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Richard == Richard Barnes rbar...@bbn.com writes: The MECC conference center is 2 - 3 kilometers from the city center, where the restaurants are. Richard IAOC: I had been getting used to the idea of Maastricht, Richard with it being historic, nice city center and all. Richard Iljitsch's observation makes me wonder if we learned http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=dsource=s_dsaddr=Forum+100,+6229+GV+Maastricht,+Netherlands+(Maastrichts+Expositie+%26+Congres+Centrum+(Mecc)+B.V.)daddr=Maastrichthl=engeocode=FTC4BwMdrC9XACH4LXENCJiY-w%3BFTfoBwMd28dWACmTO154tunARzHmk2QWU-RsTAmra=ccdirflg=wsll=50.843475,5.696705sspn=0.022709,0.043559ie=UTF8t=hz=15 it appears one has to cross the river? Iljitsch can you confirm the end points are reasonable? Looking at the street map, I think that there are might be many closer restaurants, such as on Wycker Brugstraat. I wasn't in Dublin, so I don't know the issue there. Was the problem like in Vienna? -- ] He who is tired of Weird Al is tired of life! | firewalls [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON|net architect[ ] m...@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device driver[ Kyoto Plus: watch the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzx1ycLXQSE then sign the petition. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
On 29.03.2010 04:37, Michael Richardson wrote: Richard == Richard Barnesrbar...@bbn.com writes: The MECC conference center is 2 - 3 kilometers from the city center, where the restaurants are. Richard IAOC: I had been getting used to the idea of Maastricht, Richard with it being historic, nice city center and all. Richard Iljitsch's observation makes me wonder if we learned http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=dsource=s_dsaddr=Forum+100,+6229+GV+Maastricht,+Netherlands+(Maastrichts+Expositie+%26+Congres+Centrum+(Mecc)+B.V.)daddr=Maastrichthl=engeocode=FTC4BwMdrC9XACH4LXENCJiY-w%3BFTfoBwMd28dWACmTO154tunARzHmk2QWU-RsTAmra=ccdirflg=wsll=50.843475,5.696705sspn=0.022709,0.043559ie=UTF8t=hz=15 it appears one has to cross the river? ... Looks like a case rental bikes to me :-) Best regards, Julian ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Richard, The site for the IETF in Dublin was easily an order of magnitude farther from the city center than the MECC. Google Maps lists several restaurants in the 2-3km range walking. That's doable even by an overweight out-of-shape American like me with the normal 1.5 hours for lunch. Would do me good to spend more time walking than eating. We could even advertise the meeting as a easy to moderate workout week! I like the idea of rental bikes, but I suspect they may sell out faster than rooms in the attached hotel... Enjoy! Chris. -- Chris Elliott On Mar 28, 2010, at 9:55 PM, Richard Barnes rbar...@bbn.com wrote: [Added IAOC] Iljitsch: Thanks very much for this information. I was not aware of this: The MECC conference center is 2 - 3 kilometers from the city center, where the restaurants are. IAOC: I had been getting used to the idea of Maastricht, with it being historic, nice city center and all. Iljitsch's observation makes me wonder if we learned nothing from Dublin, and are now choosing IETF venues from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_points_of_the_World#Remoteness --Richard P.S. WTFIAOC is worth 65 points in Scrabble. 69 points in the Dutch edition! Ground transport: Maastricht is located in the far southeast of the Netherlands, 215 km (by road) from Amsterdam. The city is located on the Belgian border and is also very close to Germany. There are some smaller airports closer to Maastricht than the ones mentioned below, but those don't serve many destinations and don't connect to the rail network so more hassle and as much or more time to reach Maastricht despite the shorter distance. Only consider these smaller airports if you know what you're doing. You can of course rent a car at one of the airports and drive to Maastricht, and even commute between the MECC and your hotel by car if the hotel is located outside the inner city, but you'll probably need to get into the city for dinner anyway and being a few thousand years old, Maastricht's city center isn't really built for cars. The most convenient airport to use would be Schiphol (Amsterdam) airport. From there, it takes about 2 hours, 35 minutes with one change to get to Maastricht by train with a connection every 30 minutes. A second class one way ticket is 27.50 euros. The last train from Schiphol to Maastricht is at 22:16. The first train to Schiphol arrives at nine. A good alternative is Brussels, from where Maastricht is about two hours with one or two changes and one connection per hour with regular national and international trains. The last connection to Maastricht is at around 21:39. The first train to Brussels airport arrives at nine on weekdays, ten on weekends. There are also a few high speed train connections which save you 30 minutes. If you're arriving in Europe through Frankfurt or Paris, it may not make too much sense to first connect to Amsterdam or Brussels and then sit in a train for a few more hours. You may as well take the train directly from these airports to Maastricht. However, consider that missing train/plane connections is your problem, while plane/ plane connections are the airline's problem. (Financially, at least.) From Frankfurt, there is one connection per hour (weekdays) or one every two hours (weekends) that takes 4 hours, 46 minutes with regular national and international trains. The last connection to Maastricht without high speed trains leaves at around 18:22. The first connection to FRA without high speed trains arrives at 13:36. From Frankfurt it is (of course) faster to take a high speed train, and from Paris it's the only option. The downside of high speed trains is that you can't just hop on like on a regular train, you need to book or reserve a seat on a specific train. Also, they run less often so if you miss one, you're in big trouble. Also check prices before you book (usually available 90 days before the travel date), international trains in general and especially high speed trains can be quite expensive. From Frankfurt, there is an ICE connection several times a day that takes between 3 hours and 3 hours 41 minutes with 2 or 3 changes. The last connection to Maastricht is at 21:09. The first connection to FRA arrives at 10:16, 11:51 on sundays. From Paris, there is a thalys connection every two hours or so in the weekend and a bit more often during weekdays. The journey takes between 3 hours, 15 minutes and 4 hours, 10 minutes, with one or two changes. The last connection to Maastricht is at 20:04 on weekdays and 18:49 on weekends. On weekdays, the first train to CDG arrives at 10:44, on the weekends 11:36. You can also get from Heathrow to Maastricht in 5 to 6 hours with 2 or 3 changes, but as the last connection from Heathrow is around five and from Maastricht the first one arrives at around noon (two hours later on
RE: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
I wasn't in Dublin, so I don't know the issue there. Was the problem like in Vienna? I have to say, that I didn't find Vienna a problem at all. There was a great mass transit system, and a two minute train trip to all the restaurants in the centre of town. I don't often stay at the venue though, so I am used to a hike. Greg ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
Chris Elliott wrote: Google Maps lists several restaurants in the 2-3km range walking. That's doable even by an overweight out-of-shape American like me with the normal 1.5 hours for lunch. Would do me good to spend more time walking than eating. During meetings I appreciate opportunities to get off my can and get out of the venue but I hope there will be meal options for people who aren't able-bodied and who aren't able to walk a couple of miles during a 1.5-hour lunch break. Melinda ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
