Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On 8/30/2011 2:30 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: Dean, Before you give up completely I would check out: http://wikitravel.org/en/Taipei Taxis are not expensive, the Metro even less so, and there are at least some budget hotels nearby. I expect the local hosts to provide more information soon -- they already have some info on the website. I agree about the Hyatt hotel price. I agree with Ole. Staying in a different hotel (easily found for $150/night in TPE) will give some budget back into the taxi column, and they're inexpensive in TPE. The Metro even more so. Case in point: I stayed at a $120/night hotel in Quebec, so I didn't mind spending $7 on a taxi when it rained and I couldn't walk. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
Dean, I think you would be an ideal person to be on IAOC. Would you be willing to stand for that? Cullen On Aug 30, 2011, at 2:00 PM, Dean Willis wrote: On 8/23/11 9:24 AM, John C Klensin wrote: So I'm opposed to a USD 200 (or any other number) firm limit on hotel rates. At the same time, I continue to wish that the IAOC would be more open with the community about how these decisions are made and, in particular, how the tradeoffs between sponsorship (and hence lower costs to the IETF for meeting infrastructure and arrangements) and meetings costs to attendees are made... open enough that the community could give substantive guidance on the subject, guidance that I assume the IAOC would follow if it were coherent and plausible. Quite right. There's more than just the hotel rates. My budget is about $2500 US per IETF meeting. That has to cover airfare, the IETF meeting fee, the hotel, meals, service charges, ground transport, mobile phone roaming, incidentals, etc. $300 a night counting taxes and surcharge is just ABSOLUTELY OUT OF THE FREAKING QUESTION. Having the backup hotel a 10 minute taxi ride away is out of the question -- I can't afford taxis. If I can't walk, I can't go. So guess what? I told the wife last night that I wasn't planning to go to the Taiwan meeting. I wanted to go, but I just don't see how it can happen. Maybe I'll win the lottery between now and then... I'm disappointed. I'm hurt. I'm angry. And the trend has just been getting worse and worse with every venue. I want the IAOC's heads on a platter (preferably an inexpensive, disposable platter, like maybe the lid off an old pizza box) for signing us up to this venue. And I want a travel budget no larger than mine for the people we send to future meetings. If we can't find a reasonably inexpensive place to have a meeting, DON'T HAVE THE MEETING! -- Dean Willis ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
Hi, Also note that, according to Google maps, it is possible to take a bus from the overflow hotel to the meeting. It requires a 400 meters walk from the hotel to the bus stop, but that should be managble even for an IETF attendee... The total travel (walking+bus) is 13 minutes. Regards, Christer -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ole Jacobsen Sent: 31. elokuuta 2011 0:31 To: Dean Willis Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy? Dean, Before you give up completely I would check out: http://wikitravel.org/en/Taipei Taxis are not expensive, the Metro even less so, and there are at least some budget hotels nearby. I expect the local hosts to provide more information soon -- they already have some info on the website. I agree about the Hyatt hotel price. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo On Tue, 30 Aug 2011, Dean Willis wrote: On 8/23/11 9:24 AM, John C Klensin wrote: So I'm opposed to a USD 200 (or any other number) firm limit on hotel rates. At the same time, I continue to wish that the IAOC would be more open with the community about how these decisions are made and, in particular, how the tradeoffs between sponsorship (and hence lower costs to the IETF for meeting infrastructure and arrangements) and meetings costs to attendees are made... open enough that the community could give substantive guidance on the subject, guidance that I assume the IAOC would follow if it were coherent and plausible. Quite right. There's more than just the hotel rates. My budget is about $2500 US per IETF meeting. That has to cover airfare, the IETF meeting fee, the hotel, meals, service charges, ground transport, mobile phone roaming, incidentals, etc. $300 a night counting taxes and surcharge is just ABSOLUTELY OUT OF THE FREAKING QUESTION. Having the backup hotel a 10 minute taxi ride away is out of the question -- I can't afford taxis. If I can't walk, I can't go. So guess what? I told the wife last night that I wasn't planning to go to the Taiwan meeting. I wanted to go, but I just don't see how it can happen. Maybe I'll win the lottery between now and then... I'm disappointed. I'm hurt. I'm angry. And the trend has just been getting worse and worse with every venue. I want the IAOC's heads on a platter (preferably an inexpensive, disposable platter, like maybe the lid off an old pizza box) for signing us up to this venue. And I want a travel budget no larger than mine for the people we send to future meetings. If we can't find a reasonably inexpensive place to have a meeting, DON'T HAVE THE MEETING! -- Dean Willis ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On 8/23/11 9:24 AM, John C Klensin wrote: So I'm opposed to a USD 200 (or any other number) firm limit on hotel rates. At the same time, I continue to wish that the IAOC would be more open with the community about how these decisions are made and, in particular, how the tradeoffs between sponsorship (and hence lower costs to the IETF for meeting infrastructure and arrangements) and meetings costs to attendees are made... open enough that the community could give substantive guidance on the subject, guidance that I assume the IAOC would follow if it were coherent and plausible. Quite right. There's more than just the hotel rates. My budget is about $2500 US per IETF meeting. That has to cover airfare, the IETF meeting fee, the hotel, meals, service charges, ground transport, mobile phone roaming, incidentals, etc. $300 a night counting taxes and surcharge is just ABSOLUTELY OUT OF THE FREAKING QUESTION. Having the backup hotel a 10 minute taxi ride away is out of the question -- I can't afford taxis. If I can't walk, I can't go. So guess what? I told the wife last night that I wasn't planning to go to the Taiwan meeting. I wanted to go, but I just don't see how it can happen. Maybe I'll win the lottery between now and then... I'm disappointed. I'm hurt. I'm angry. And the trend has just been getting worse and worse with every venue. I want the IAOC's heads on a platter (preferably an inexpensive, disposable platter, like maybe the lid off an old pizza box) for signing us up to this venue. And I want a travel budget no larger than mine for the people we send to future meetings. If we can't find a reasonably inexpensive place to have a meeting, DON'T HAVE THE MEETING! -- Dean Willis ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
Dean, Before you give up completely I would check out: http://wikitravel.org/en/Taipei Taxis are not expensive, the Metro even less so, and there are at least some budget hotels nearby. I expect the local hosts to provide more information soon -- they already have some info on the website. I agree about the Hyatt hotel price. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo On Tue, 30 Aug 2011, Dean Willis wrote: On 8/23/11 9:24 AM, John C Klensin wrote: So I'm opposed to a USD 200 (or any other number) firm limit on hotel rates. At the same time, I continue to wish that the IAOC would be more open with the community about how these decisions are made and, in particular, how the tradeoffs between sponsorship (and hence lower costs to the IETF for meeting infrastructure and arrangements) and meetings costs to attendees are made... open enough that the community could give substantive guidance on the subject, guidance that I assume the IAOC would follow if it were coherent and plausible. Quite right. There's more than just the hotel rates. My budget is about $2500 US per IETF meeting. That has to cover airfare, the IETF meeting fee, the hotel, meals, service charges, ground transport, mobile phone roaming, incidentals, etc. $300 a night counting taxes and surcharge is just ABSOLUTELY OUT OF THE FREAKING QUESTION. Having the backup hotel a 10 minute taxi ride away is out of the question -- I can't afford taxis. If I can't walk, I can't go. So guess what? I told the wife last night that I wasn't planning to go to the Taiwan meeting. I wanted to go, but I just don't see how it can happen. Maybe I'll win the lottery between now and then... I'm disappointed. I'm hurt. I'm angry. And the trend has just been getting worse and worse with every venue. I want the IAOC's heads on a platter (preferably an inexpensive, disposable platter, like maybe the lid off an old pizza box) for signing us up to this venue. And I want a travel budget no larger than mine for the people we send to future meetings. If we can't find a reasonably inexpensive place to have a meeting, DON'T HAVE THE MEETING! -- Dean Willis ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
-Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rescorla Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 9:03 AM Subject: Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy? I find that I work more effectively when I have computer and Internet available WEG] Me too, emphasis on the Internet. And this is exactly the reason why I simply don't buy the just find a cheaper hotel instead of the IETF one argument as the only solution for people put off by the price of the main hotel. Those staying in hotels with non-IETF internet access find that the combination of some non-trivial number of heavy internet users plus underprovisioned wireless, DHCP pool, and uplink, lack of IPv6 support + NAT = internet service that is somewhere between annoyingly crappy and unusably crappy. While I am somewhat sensitive to hotel price, for me, first-class internet service in my hotel room is worth a small bump in price so that I don't have to spend hours before and after sessions are over squatting in the conference area or hotel common area to get a decent connection to get work done. If you're willing to make that tradeoff in the interest of cheaper hotel, more power to you, but given the number of complaints about Delta's network in QC, I think that this is something that people tend to forget until they get there... (and before you say anything, I realize that Delta was the official overflow hotel, but I think the point is still valid). I'll also note that I don't think that it's strictly necessary for the hotel and conference center to be connected. I thought that the arrangement in Stockholm was quite nice. Wes George This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On 26/08/2011 16:48, Mary Barnes wrote: [MB] I've not seen a single person advocate a 0:3:0 schedule and it's only less cheaper for all participants (not just US) because the hotel rates are extremely reasonable ($150 as I recall).It is definitely less expensive for the vast majority of participants than NA cities like Quebec City and San Francisco that travel by air. BUT, I think you are missing what we are saying overall - the major reasons some of us prefer Minneapolis is because it meets what some of us have been saying over and over as far a key factors for meetings: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg68656.html http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg68727.html I like Minneapolis as meeting location too, assuming that the visa troubles we had there last time are solved, and I'd be happy to make it the default location for US meetings. However, we have said that we want to meet all over the planet. That means that we have to go elsewhere somewhere, even if there is a good and cheaper meeting location available elsewhere, but in the wrong region. The same goes for the meeting weeks, if a good hotel option isn't available in a meeting week but is available a week or so earlier/later, then under the present rules, it has to be discarded. Henk -- -- Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk(at)uijterwaal.nl http://www.uijterwaal.nl Phone: +31.6.55861746 -- There appears to have been a collective retreat from reality that day. (John Glanfield, on an engineering project) ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
I also like Minneapolis, for what it's worth. Cheers, Andy On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 6:24 AM, Henk Uijterwaal h...@uijterwaal.nl wrote: On 26/08/2011 16:48, Mary Barnes wrote: [MB] I've not seen a single person advocate a 0:3:0 schedule and it's only less cheaper for all participants (not just US) because the hotel rates are extremely reasonable ($150 as I recall). It is definitely less expensive for the vast majority of participants than NA cities like Quebec City and San Francisco that travel by air. BUT, I think you are missing what we are saying overall - the major reasons some of us prefer Minneapolis is because it meets what some of us have been saying over and over as far a key factors for meetings: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg68656.html http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg68727.html I like Minneapolis as meeting location too, assuming that the visa troubles we had there last time are solved, and I'd be happy to make it the default location for US meetings. However, we have said that we want to meet all over the planet. That means that we have to go elsewhere somewhere, even if there is a good and cheaper meeting location available elsewhere, but in the wrong region. The same goes for the meeting weeks, if a good hotel option isn't available in a meeting week but is available a week or so earlier/later, then under the present rules, it has to be discarded. Henk -- -- Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk(at)uijterwaal.nl http://www.uijterwaal.nl Phone: +31.6.55861746 -- There appears to have been a collective retreat from reality that day. (John Glanfield, on an engineering project) ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On 8/28/2011 12:25 PM, Adam Novak wrote: On Aug 28, 2011 12:06 AM, Glen Zorn glenz...@gmail.com mailto:glenz...@gmail.com wrote: Good to hear. Getting rid of cookies can save a _lot_ of money since you're at IETF to work I'm sure you wouldn't mind if the conditions more closely approximated those of the typical office; no office I've ever worked in has provided free cookies beverages twice a day... In my experience, computer industry employers often provide free snacks and beverages, since hungry/thirsty/caffine-deprived developers write bad code. It's also a better value than paying them more, in terms of how much they like you. I'm familiar with the refrigerator full of caffeinated sugar water, even the occasional tray of treats or keg of beer, but cookies (often 2 or 3 varieties)/brownies (ditto), fresh fruit, crudites dip, twice a day? Wow, I've really been working the wrong places... ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Aug 28, 2011, at 2:35 AM, Glen Zorn wrote: I'm familiar with the refrigerator full of caffeinated sugar water, even the occasional tray of treats or keg of beer, but cookies (often 2 or 3 varieties)/brownies (ditto), fresh fruit, crudites dip, twice a day? Wow, I've really been working the wrong places... some companies will do almost anything to keep their employees at work as long as possible every day. Keith ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 10:05 PM, Glen Zorn glenz...@gmail.com wrote: On 8/27/2011 10:30 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 7:57 AM, Dave CROCKER d...@dcrocker.net wrote: On 8/27/2011 7:48 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: What I have heard is that the community would prefer going to locations that were easy to travel to over interesting. How do you reconcile this assertion against the clearly positive group reactions to Prague and Quebec? FYI, in relative terms, even Minneapolis is second-tier. I have no idea what the community wants--and I'm not convinced that the data we have available lets us assess that, for the usual reasons about the difficulty of doing accurate surveying--but speaking solely for myself, I'm at IETF to work, so my priorities center around the things that make it easy to get work done. This basically boils down to cost and convenience. Good to hear. Getting rid of cookies can save a _lot_ of money since you're at IETF to work I'm sure you wouldn't mind if the conditions more closely approximated those of the typical office; no office I've ever worked in has provided free cookies beverages twice a day... I'm not sure that getting rid of food at breaks would save a lot of money. Do you know what the actual numbers are as a percentage of the overall cost? With that said, it's actually quite common for workplaces to offer free snacks and/or beverages, not only twice a day but 24/7. Maybe you should consider a different class of employers. Within these general parameters, my priorities are something like: 1. Cost: - Travel - Hotel Rationale: airfare tends to not be that flexible, but it's generally possible to find a cheaper hotel if you try (as several people have observed). However, if the conference hotel is $300/night, then this is probably going to trickle down some into cheaper hotels so it's not like hotel doesn't matter. 2. Convenience: - Length of trip. - Local services Rationale: travel time is time I'm not working (yeah, we all try, but I'm not that effective and I suspect most people are not.) Lack of local services means less time meeting and more time rushing around trying to find lunch before the next meeting, walking to and from the hotel, etc. So, do you live in your office? Next door to the building? Across the street from the office park? If not, why are you applying criteria to the IETF workplace that you don't to everyday employment? Funny you should mention that, since I work from home most of the time in part to minimize commute time. For that matter, for one whose (not primary, but _only_) purpose is work, Strawman alert finding lunch is a non-problem: you simply eat whatever is closest, quickest, most efficient, without any regard to taste or surroundings (e.g., the company cafeteria, analogous in this case to the hotel restaurant(s)). Maybe you've noticed that the hotel restaurants are (a) expensive and (b) tend to fill up quickly, which often makes it hard for people to actually get in and out in the relevant time. This would of course be far worse if there were no reasonable restaurants in the area. WRT walking to and from the hotel, I know that I, at least, am not paid to type (if I was, my clients would be getting a really bad deal ;-). I get paid to think, and I'm pretty sure that you are, too. I don't know you very well, but I think it's a sure bet that you can think walk at the same time :-). I find that I work more effectively when I have computer and Internet available, neither of which is the situation when I'm walking to and from the conference center. Your mileage may vary. -Ekr ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Aug 24, 2011, at 2:27 PM, Sam Hartman wrote: Dave == Dave CROCKER d...@dcrocker.net writes: Dave ps. As a personal aside, I'll note that I've lobbied rather Dave vigorously for venues that entail less travel effort, by Dave eliminating the additional hop needed to get from a major hub. Dave Note that that has gotten essentially zero support from the Dave community. The community has vigrously expressed a preference Dave for interesting venues rather than ones that are chosen Dave solely for logistics convenience. Can you start by backing up the assertion that the community has vigrously expressed a preference for interesting venues? I may just need a new IETF community:-) What I have heard is that the community would prefer going to locations that were easy to travel to over interesting. I'd be perfectly happy with every US meeting being in Minneapolis. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On 8/27/2011 7:48 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: What I have heard is that the community would prefer going to locations that were easy to travel to over interesting. How do you reconcile this assertion against the clearly positive group reactions to Prague and Quebec? FYI, in relative terms, even Minneapolis is second-tier. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
What I have heard is that the community would prefer going to locations that were easy to travel to over interesting. Well, some of the community. I expect that's because we just came back from a meeting that wasn't great for travel (insert shout-out to the gang who were all stuck for the night at the Phila airport Marriott) but once we got there, had good food and interesting stuff to do nearby in the evenings. If we'd come back from a meeting that was within walking distance of a hub airport, but all the places to eat had bright lighting and laminated menus, I expect the set of complaints would be quite different. R's, John ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 7:57 AM, Dave CROCKER d...@dcrocker.net wrote: On 8/27/2011 7:48 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: What I have heard is that the community would prefer going to locations that were easy to travel to over interesting. How do you reconcile this assertion against the clearly positive group reactions to Prague and Quebec? FYI, in relative terms, even Minneapolis is second-tier. I have no idea what the community wants--and I'm not convinced that the data we have available lets us assess that, for the usual reasons about the difficulty of doing accurate surveying--but speaking solely for myself, I'm at IETF to work, so my priorities center around the things that make it easy to get work done. This basically boils down to cost and convenience. Within these general parameters, my priorities are something like: 1. Cost: - Travel - Hotel Rationale: airfare tends to not be that flexible, but it's generally possible to find a cheaper hotel if you try (as several people have observed). However, if the conference hotel is $300/night, then this is probably going to trickle down some into cheaper hotels so it's not like hotel doesn't matter. 2. Convenience: - Length of trip. - Local services Rationale: travel time is time I'm not working (yeah, we all try, but I'm not that effective and I suspect most people are not.) Lack of local services means less time meeting and more time rushing around trying to find lunch before the next meeting, walking to and from the hotel, etc. I'm certainly not opposed to interesting venues, but I would say it's worth about $200-300 to me on a typical IETF trip. I would be more than happy to have all IETFs at some small number of convenient, economical venues. E.g., Vancouver, Prague, and (insert Asian Venue here.) [0] Obviously, we can't optimize for these criteria at once for everyone, but it's equally the case that there are plenty of venues which don't really meet them that well for anyone. -Ekr [0] Prague isn't actually that convenient since it's one hop away from Frankfurt. None of the European venues have been that great for me from the standpoint of the two criteria above, since they're either far from a hub (Prague) or expensive (Paris). My vote here would probably be for Frankfurt, but that's probably just Star Alliance provincialism. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On 8/27/2011 10:30 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 7:57 AM, Dave CROCKER d...@dcrocker.net wrote: On 8/27/2011 7:48 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: What I have heard is that the community would prefer going to locations that were easy to travel to over interesting. How do you reconcile this assertion against the clearly positive group reactions to Prague and Quebec? FYI, in relative terms, even Minneapolis is second-tier. I have no idea what the community wants--and I'm not convinced that the data we have available lets us assess that, for the usual reasons about the difficulty of doing accurate surveying--but speaking solely for myself, I'm at IETF to work, so my priorities center around the things that make it easy to get work done. This basically boils down to cost and convenience. Good to hear. Getting rid of cookies can save a _lot_ of money since you're at IETF to work I'm sure you wouldn't mind if the conditions more closely approximated those of the typical office; no office I've ever worked in has provided free cookies beverages twice a day... Within these general parameters, my priorities are something like: 1. Cost: - Travel - Hotel Rationale: airfare tends to not be that flexible, but it's generally possible to find a cheaper hotel if you try (as several people have observed). However, if the conference hotel is $300/night, then this is probably going to trickle down some into cheaper hotels so it's not like hotel doesn't matter. 2. Convenience: - Length of trip. - Local services Rationale: travel time is time I'm not working (yeah, we all try, but I'm not that effective and I suspect most people are not.) Lack of local services means less time meeting and more time rushing around trying to find lunch before the next meeting, walking to and from the hotel, etc. So, do you live in your office? Next door to the building? Across the street from the office park? If not, why are you applying criteria to the IETF workplace that you don't to everyday employment? For that matter, for one whose (not primary, but _only_) purpose is work, finding lunch is a non-problem: you simply eat whatever is closest, quickest, most efficient, without any regard to taste or surroundings (e.g., the company cafeteria, analogous in this case to the hotel restaurant(s)). WRT walking to and from the hotel, I know that I, at least, am not paid to type (if I was, my clients would be getting a really bad deal ;-). I get paid to think, and I'm pretty sure that you are, too. I don't know you very well, but I think it's a sure bet that you can think walk at the same time :-). ... ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Aug 28, 2011 12:06 AM, Glen Zorn glenz...@gmail.com wrote: Good to hear. Getting rid of cookies can save a _lot_ of money since you're at IETF to work I'm sure you wouldn't mind if the conditions more closely approximated those of the typical office; no office I've ever worked in has provided free cookies beverages twice a day... In my experience, computer industry employers often provide free snacks and beverages, since hungry/thirsty/caffine-deprived developers write bad code. It's also a better value than paying them more, in terms of how much they like you. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On 25/08/2011 01:03, geoff wrote: On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 15:28 -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: 1) We don't have to go to any particular location. There has been an assumption made by people in this discussion that sometimes when we pick locations with particularly expensive hotels, we'll get particularly expensive meetings. That's great except that we were the ones who chose to go to those locations. If we can't meet our cost targets at a location, go somewhere else. Sam makes a really good point here. We didn't have to go to Taipei. For some reason we chose to go to Taipei. Not quite. There is a requirement to have meetings all over the world, in a ratio of 1:1:1 for Europe, North America and Asia. Considering that we have to go to Asia, Taipei looks like a sensible choice: it is in the middle of the region, it well connected, and it is one of the bigger economies in the region. I have a feeling that if we dropped this requirement and went for a 0:3:0 schedule because it is much cheaper for the US participants to go to M'polis 3 times/year, somebody else would complain. The hotel (and host if there was on) could/should have been told - sorry too expensive. I've lost track what has been officially announced, but in one of the future years, the 1:1:1 requirement has been dropped as there was no suitable venue in one of the areas. Henk -- -- Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk(at)uijterwaal.nl http://www.uijterwaal.nl Phone: +31.6.55861746 -- There appears to have been a collective retreat from reality that day. (John Glanfield, on an engineering project) ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
That's why we've met TWICE in your city! Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo On Thu, 25 Aug 2011, Michal Krsek wrote: Dear sirs, I really appreciate your support to US venues, but please keep in mind, there are places eastern from Bermuda and western from Kauai. In addition there is also some land southern from El Paso. Lets say - Internet is for everyone. And, trust me or not, there are people that have no budget for intercontinental travel and their input is to the community work is valuable too. Sorry for this social two cents in this engineering list. Regards Michal Krsek How about Fresno? Sent from my iPhone -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 11:09 AM To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy? On 25/08/2011 18:12, Mary Barnes wrote: I am also a fan of Minneapolis for meetings - the facilities at the Hilton are perfect for our needs. There's lots of food options. It has good air connections and there is decent pubic transport from the airport to the city. However, this seems to be a minority perspective. If we were to do votes again, the results might be interesting. Mary. I like Minneapolis as well, but then, speaking personally, I like US IETF venues in general. Stewart ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
Henk, A few responses inline below [MB]. Regards, Mary. On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 1:22 AM, Henk Uijterwaal henk.uijterw...@gmail.comwrote: On 25/08/2011 01:03, geoff wrote: On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 15:28 -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: 1) We don't have to go to any particular location. There has been an assumption made by people in this discussion that sometimes when we pick locations with particularly expensive hotels, we'll get particularly expensive meetings. That's great except that we were the ones who chose to go to those locations. If we can't meet our cost targets at a location, go somewhere else. Sam makes a really good point here. We didn't have to go to Taipei. For some reason we chose to go to Taipei. Not quite. There is a requirement to have meetings all over the world, in a ratio of 1:1:1 for Europe, North America and Asia. Considering that we have to go to Asia, Taipei looks like a sensible choice: it is in the middle of the region, it well connected, and it is one of the bigger economies in the region. I have a feeling that if we dropped this requirement and went for a 0:3:0 schedule because it is much cheaper for the US participants to go to M'polis 3 times/year, somebody else would complain. [MB] I've not seen a single person advocate a 0:3:0 schedule and it's only less cheaper for all participants (not just US) because the hotel rates are extremely reasonable ($150 as I recall).It is definitely less expensive for the vast majority of participants than NA cities like Quebec City and San Francisco that travel by air. BUT, I think you are missing what we are saying overall - the major reasons some of us prefer Minneapolis is because it meets what some of us have been saying over and over as far a key factors for meetings: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg68656.html http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg68727.html The expense factor is just one other factor that is higher priority for some folks than others and certainly shouldn't be ignored in venue selection, but I don't think there is an accurate way to judge the overall expense burden for attendees as it is not at all based on which continent the meeting is held. My expenses for Prague, Quebec City and Beijing were nearly the same: Prague was $500 less than QC and Beijing - cost for QC and Beijing was the same!!! [/MB] The hotel (and host if there was on) could/should have been told - sorry too expensive. I've lost track what has been officially announced, but in one of the future years, the 1:1:1 requirement has been dropped as there was no suitable venue in one of the areas. [MB] I think it's next year that is the exception as we will be in both Vancouver and Atlanta - although, I would think the West Coast and East Coast locations ensures that a bit more of the travel burden is shared. I think what some folks miss is that West Coast meetings in NA are almost as far away as Western Europe for folks in the Eastern US, so it's really not at all reasonable to assume that folks in the US have an easier travel burden only if the meetings are NA. And, you ought to consider that when the meetings are in the US, the majority of us travel significantly further to get to meetings than folks in Europe do to get to meetings in Europe. [/MB] [MB] So, it's really silly for folks to be assuming that some of us want all meetings in NA because it's just so much easier and cheaper for us.[/MB] Henk -- -- Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk(at)uijterwaal.nl http://www.uijterwaal.nl Phone: +31.6.55861746 -- There appears to have been a collective retreat from reality that day. (John Glanfield, on an engineering project) ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
Ole == Ole Jacobsen o...@cisco.com writes: Ole * Sticking to our fixed dates, published up to 5 years in Ole advance. Ole I think you will find that the one-roof solution does indeed Ole lead to fairly expensive HQ properties, this is more or less Ole true all over the world and is currently made much worse by the Ole weak dollar. The fixed date restriction (which is good in my Ole view) also contributes to challenges with venue Ole availability. We been told more than once that if you do it a Ole week later or earlier... Given that we are now booking three years in advance (vs 1 year that occured 5 years ago), perhaps it is time to change our policy to publish the dates only three years in advance. We still have the list of conflicts/avoidances to deal with. -- ] He who is tired of Weird Al is tired of life! | firewalls [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON|net architect[ ] m...@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device driver[ Kyoto Plus: watch the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzx1ycLXQSE then sign the petition. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
Ole, In the (somewhat far) past, my memory was that the IETF rate was *less* then the normal available rate. This trend to higher rates is something I only remember seeing over the last 5 or so years. Perhaps my memory is just flawed, as I haven't done the work to verify this, but I don't think so. I think in the spirit of transparency we really need to understand why this trend has occurred. From looking at the list of things we get for the IETF rate, the only thing I see in the list that is really important to the individuals paying the room-fees is in-room (typically) IETF-class internet. Breakfast is great, but it is included only when this is the norm for the region/hotel, so really isn't a real benefit compared to rack rates. I strongly feel that the free or subsidized meeting rooms should come out of the meeting fees, not *hidden* in the hotel rates. You also don't mention the free hotel rooms/suites. Again the value here and subsidy in the IETF rates really should be known, but in either case, these too should come out of the meeting fees. I personally think the issues to focus on/fix are the lack of transparency and the current approach of distributing meeting costs to the hotel rate. Lou On 8/23/2011 2:07 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: You said: At root is that we are trying to negotiate a purchase at a discounted price without committing to buying any particular number of rooms, versus only a limited number of possible sellers. When negotiating a group rate we actually ARE committing to buying a certain number of rooms (the room block). There are certainly pros and cons with group rates. On the pro side: guaranteed rate (but not necessarily the absolute lowest available at any time), included benefits (breakfast, Internet, if applicable), free or subsidized meeting rooms where applicable. On the cons side is of course the cancellation policy (not that it has to be as onerous as this one). Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: [IETF] Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
From: Warren Kumari [war...@kumari.net] And I've concluded that the IAOC have a crappy job to do and that folk like to kvetch. +1 The IAOC does a remarkably good job given the difficulty of the optimization problem. Just over the last two years, I'm amazed by the number of vastly different places we've had meetings, and I (as a non-speaking foreigner in many of them) have had no serious difficulties with any of them. Dale ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
Lou == Lou Berger lber...@labn.net writes: Lou Ole, In the (somewhat far) past, my memory was that the IETF Lou rate was *less* then the normal available rate. This trend to Lou higher rates is something I only remember seeing over the last Lou 5 or so years. Perhaps my memory is just flawed, as I haven't Lou done the work to verify this, but I don't think so. Yes, I agree. It seems that it has occured since we started booking the events many years in advance. When we booked at the last minute, and didn't know even where the meeting was going to be more than two IETFs in advance, the room rates were better. Lou I personally think the issues to focus on/fix are the lack of Lou transparency and the current approach of distributing meeting Lou costs to the hotel rate. It's more than that, but until we have this fixed, we can't know how much more. -- ] He who is tired of Weird Al is tired of life! | firewalls [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON|net architect[ ] m...@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device driver[ Kyoto Plus: watch the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzx1ycLXQSE then sign the petition. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
- Original Message - From: Thomas Nadeau tnad...@lucidvision.com To: Alia Atlas akat...@gmail.com Cc: Sam Hartman hartmans-i...@mit.edu; Dave CROCKER dcroc...@bbiw.net; ietf@ietf.org Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 10:39 PM On Aug 24, 2011, at 4:33 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 4:30 PM, Dave CROCKER dcroc...@bbiw.net wrote: On 8/24/2011 1:27 PM, Sam Hartman wrote: Can you start by backing up the assertion that the community has vigrously expressed a preference for interesting venues? I may just need a new IETF community:-) gosh, I hadn't thought that that was less than obvious, given the vote for quebec and many, many comments about venue choice over the years. I'm one who really liked Minneapolis - we had excellent meeting space, places to run into each other, reasonable food access, and a clueful hotel. Is it interesting to go to new places? Sure and if I'm lucky I might get a morning or afternoon to look around. Would I be perfectly happy going to the same 2-3 places every year? Absolutely. I am with you on that. I do not attend IETFs as a vacation and sight-seeing opportunity. tp Yes, I too go to work, and would rate Minneapolis in the top three, with Atlanta perhaps just above it. Tom /tp --Tom Alia ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 16:27 -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: Dave == Dave CROCKER d...@dcrocker.net writes: Dave ps. As a personal aside, I'll note that I've lobbied rather Dave vigorously for venues that entail less travel effort, by Dave eliminating the additional hop needed to get from a major hub. Dave Note that that has gotten essentially zero support from the Dave community. The community has vigrously expressed a preference Dave for interesting venues rather than ones that are chosen Dave solely for logistics convenience. Can you start by backing up the assertion that the community has vigrously expressed a preference for interesting venues? I may just need a new IETF community:-) I agree. I think that there is a vocal minority that wants this. I don't think that community as a whole really cares. We had this huge debate about the number of times (down to fractions of times) to visit each area of the world so as to increase participation and we then have locations that make it difficult to get to or expensive or both and expensive to get to which limits participation. I like Santa Clara, CA geoff ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 15:28 -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: 1) We don't have to go to any particular location. There has been an assumption made by people in this discussion that sometimes when we pick locations with particularly expensive hotels, we'll get particularly expensive meetings. That's great except that we were the ones who chose to go to those locations. If we can't meet our cost targets at a location, go somewhere else. Sam makes a really good point here. We didn't have to go to Taipei. For some reason we chose to go to Taipei. When the IAOC was looking at places years ago was the dollar so strong that the hotel was cheap - I doubt it. It was probably just as expensive back then. It should have just been dropped from the list and the city as wel. The hotel (and host if there was on) could/should have been told - sorry too expensive. There was never a requirement to go to Taipei. There was never a requirement to go to Maastricht with the 3 train changes and hotels spread out and not under a single roof, awful cancellation policy (unless you booked it separately from the IETF). Nice place, but no one ordered us to go to Maastricht. I liked Hiroshima, but even it was not easy to get to (multiple trains). We seem to be limiting attendance to people from large companies just so that we can meet everywhere in the world. If it isn't relatively inexpensive then we say, sorry we can't go there. So what. We don't have to visit every country. I know that this is blasphemous but why can't we meet in just a couple of the same places over and over again -- yeah it's boring for those that want to be a tourist, but I go to work and would prefer a venue that has good/easy access (major airport nearby) with a cheapish hotel and a decent cancellation policy. geoff PS - Lets just go to Minneapolis 3 times a year - bet we can get a great rate and the US dollar is on-sale! ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
Maybe the majority doesn't care one way or the other - they will just go wherever the meetings are held in which case: let's make them easy to get to cheap decent food one roof (with other hotels near-by) cheap and easy to get to You could pick Rosemont, IL (next to O'hare) for every meeting (oops, sorry - misses on decent food). geoff On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 13:23 -0700, Dave CROCKER wrote: On 8/24/2011 1:18 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: As long as a relatively large percentage of IETF folks see meetings as an opportunity to sight-see, I don't think we'll see much support for rotating among a small set of major hub locations. +1 But it's worse than relatively large percent. There's absolutely no minority constituency that is vocal about wanting this to change. That's why I declared myself giving up on this topic. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 14:10 -0700, Ole Jacobsen wrote: On Wed, 24 Aug 2011, Dave CROCKER wrote: ps. Underlying any sort of change to the model is a change in the nature of host/sponsor recruitment. The current approach uses new venues to aid in finding new sponsors. Not quite. But you are correct that sponsors/hosts often strongly influence the choice of venue and let's not forget that there are places (China for example) where we could NOT do a meeting without a host [regardless of any financial considerations]. There may not be many such places, but the do exist. I'm confused. I heard earlier that we are picking sites 3 years ahead of time, but that sponsorship is something that happens 18 months or less. So we are not picking venues based on sponsorship or are we? If we didn't have a sponsor how much would the meeting fee increase? $100 or $200? That is more than offset by the increased cost of the hotel ($150/night vs $200/night). geoff PS - I liked Philadelphia Ole ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
I am also a fan of Minneapolis for meetings - the facilities at the Hilton are perfect for our needs. There's lots of food options. It has good air connections and there is decent pubic transport from the airport to the city. However, this seems to be a minority perspective. If we were to do votes again, the results might be interesting. Mary. On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 10:55 AM, t.petch daedu...@btconnect.com wrote: - Original Message - From: Thomas Nadeau tnad...@lucidvision.com To: Alia Atlas akat...@gmail.com Cc: Sam Hartman hartmans-i...@mit.edu; Dave CROCKER dcroc...@bbiw.net; ietf@ietf.org Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 10:39 PM On Aug 24, 2011, at 4:33 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 4:30 PM, Dave CROCKER dcroc...@bbiw.net wrote: On 8/24/2011 1:27 PM, Sam Hartman wrote: Can you start by backing up the assertion that the community has vigrously expressed a preference for interesting venues? I may just need a new IETF community:-) gosh, I hadn't thought that that was less than obvious, given the vote for quebec and many, many comments about venue choice over the years. I'm one who really liked Minneapolis - we had excellent meeting space, places to run into each other, reasonable food access, and a clueful hotel. Is it interesting to go to new places? Sure and if I'm lucky I might get a morning or afternoon to look around. Would I be perfectly happy going to the same 2-3 places every year? Absolutely. I am with you on that. I do not attend IETFs as a vacation and sight-seeing opportunity. tp Yes, I too go to work, and would rate Minneapolis in the top three, with Atlanta perhaps just above it. Tom /tp --Tom Alia ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On 8/25/11 08:55 , t.petch wrote: Yes, I too go to work, and would rate Minneapolis in the top three, with Atlanta perhaps just above it. Tom /tp --Tom In Minneapolis I think you're talking about a specific venue and city. In the case of Atlanta I'm guessing not, we've had two meetings, 55 and 21. I'm not party to the details for 21 but I helped host 55 and I don't not have a lot of love for the Marriott Marquis. Alia ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
If we use actual *attendance* as a form of voting, Minneapolis would lose big time. According to the stats, since IETF-1, there have been 6 IETF meetings in Minneapolis. Every one of them had significantly lower number of participants than the meeting before and after them... except IETF-44 which was lower than IETF-43 but about the same as IETF-45, but IETF-45 was in Oslo, Norway, and IETF-46 went back up to higher levels again. -hadriel On Aug 25, 2011, at 1:12 PM, Mary Barnes wrote: I am also a fan of Minneapolis for meetings - the facilities at the Hilton are perfect for our needs. There's lots of food options. It has good air connections and there is decent pubic transport from the airport to the city. However, this seems to be a minority perspective. If we were to do votes again, the results might be interesting. Mary. On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 10:55 AM, t.petch daedu...@btconnect.commailto:daedu...@btconnect.com wrote: - Original Message - From: Thomas Nadeau tnad...@lucidvision.commailto:tnad...@lucidvision.com To: Alia Atlas akat...@gmail.commailto:akat...@gmail.com Cc: Sam Hartman hartmans-i...@mit.edumailto:hartmans-i...@mit.edu; Dave CROCKER dcroc...@bbiw.netmailto:dcroc...@bbiw.net; ietf@ietf.orgmailto:ietf@ietf.org Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 10:39 PM On Aug 24, 2011, at 4:33 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 4:30 PM, Dave CROCKER dcroc...@bbiw.netmailto:dcroc...@bbiw.net wrote: On 8/24/2011 1:27 PM, Sam Hartman wrote: Can you start by backing up the assertion that the community has vigrously expressed a preference for interesting venues? I may just need a new IETF community:-) gosh, I hadn't thought that that was less than obvious, given the vote for quebec and many, many comments about venue choice over the years. I'm one who really liked Minneapolis - we had excellent meeting space, places to run into each other, reasonable food access, and a clueful hotel. Is it interesting to go to new places? Sure and if I'm lucky I might get a morning or afternoon to look around. Would I be perfectly happy going to the same 2-3 places every year? Absolutely. I am with you on that. I do not attend IETFs as a vacation and sight-seeing opportunity. tp Yes, I too go to work, and would rate Minneapolis in the top three, with Atlanta perhaps just above it. Tom /tp --Tom Alia ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.orgmailto:Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.orgmailto:Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.orgmailto:Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ATT1..c ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On 08/25/2011 09:36 AM, Hadriel Kaplan wrote: According to the stats, since IETF-1, there have been 6 IETF meetings in Minneapolis. Every one of them had significantly lower number of participants than the meeting before and after them... except IETF-44 which was lower than IETF-43 but about the same as IETF-45, but IETF-45 was in Oslo, Norway, and IETF-46 went back up to higher levels again. One could make some guesses about why that might be the case, but probably shouldn't. At any rate I don't think I've ever seen anybody complain about the meeting facilities in Minneapolis. Myself, I think they're probably the best of the various venues we've tried. Must be some other factor. Hm. Melinda ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On 25/08/2011 18:12, Mary Barnes wrote: I am also a fan of Minneapolis for meetings - the facilities at the Hilton are perfect for our needs. There's lots of food options. It has good air connections and there is decent pubic transport from the airport to the city. However, this seems to be a minority perspective. If we were to do votes again, the results might be interesting. Mary. I like Minneapolis as well, but then, speaking personally, I like US IETF venues in general. Stewart ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
Hadriel If we use actual *attendance* as a form of voting, Hadriel Minneapolis would lose big time. I don't think using actual attendance is the right metric. Actual attendance of people who submitted internet drafts or chaired meetings would be closer, but is also problematic. My goals are to: 1) Make IETFs easy for people doing current technical work within the organization 2) Ease getting involved in doing technical work in the organization I'm not sure what metric is best for judging things, but I have low confidence that raw attendance maps onto those two goals. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
At 12:12 PM -0500 8/25/11, Mary Barnes wrote: I am also a fan of Minneapolis for meetings - the facilities at the Hilton are perfect for our needs. There's lots of food options. It has good air connections and there is decent pubic transport from the airport to the city. I fully agree. Minneapolis works well for IETFs. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;facts are suspect;I speak for myself only -- Randomly selected tag: --- wabi (wah-BI; Japanese; noun): a flawed detail that creates an elegant whole. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
How about Fresno? Sent from my iPhone -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 11:09 AM To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy? On 25/08/2011 18:12, Mary Barnes wrote: I am also a fan of Minneapolis for meetings - the facilities at the Hilton are perfect for our needs. There's lots of food options. It has good air connections and there is decent pubic transport from the airport to the city. However, this seems to be a minority perspective. If we were to do votes again, the results might be interesting. Mary. I like Minneapolis as well, but then, speaking personally, I like US IETF venues in general. Stewart ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On 08/25/2011 11:20, John E Drake wrote: How about Fresno? ... just make sure it's upwind from the bovines. :) -- Nothin' ever doesn't change, but nothin' changes much. -- OK Go Breadth of IT experience, and depth of knowledge in the DNS. Yours for the right price. :) http://SupersetSolutions.com/ ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
Dear sirs, I really appreciate your support to US venues, but please keep in mind, there are places eastern from Bermuda and western from Kauai. In addition there is also some land southern from El Paso. Lets say - Internet is for everyone. And, trust me or not, there are people that have no budget for intercontinental travel and their input is to the community work is valuable too. Sorry for this social two cents in this engineering list. Regards Michal Krsek How about Fresno? Sent from my iPhone -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 11:09 AM To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy? On 25/08/2011 18:12, Mary Barnes wrote: I am also a fan of Minneapolis for meetings - the facilities at the Hilton are perfect for our needs. There's lots of food options. It has good air connections and there is decent pubic transport from the airport to the city. However, this seems to be a minority perspective. If we were to do votes again, the results might be interesting. Mary. I like Minneapolis as well, but then, speaking personally, I like US IETF venues in general. Stewart ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
Don't worry - this thread occurs on a regular basis, and let's us vent our frustration at having an unsolvable problem. But you do raise a good point about there being places west of Kauai. In fact, my guess is every IETFer is either west or east of Kauai. Therefore, I propose we hold a future meeting on Kauai. The Marriott there can be had for ~$220 in November; and although flights won't be cheap, they will be long so you get a lot more bang for your buck/euro/whatever. The major downside is the sand may be too hot and there is a danger of falling coconuts. -hadriel On Aug 25, 2011, at 4:43 PM, Michal Krsek wrote: Dear sirs, I really appreciate your support to US venues, but please keep in mind, there are places eastern from Bermuda and western from Kauai. In addition there is also some land southern from El Paso. Lets say - Internet is for everyone. And, trust me or not, there are people that have no budget for intercontinental travel and their input is to the community work is valuable too. Sorry for this social two cents in this engineering list. Regards Michal Krsek ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 6:32 PM, Hadriel Kaplan hkap...@acmepacket.comwrote: Don't worry - this thread occurs on a regular basis, and let's us vent our frustration at having an unsolvable problem. But you do raise a good point about there being places west of Kauai. In fact, my guess is every IETFer is either west or east of Kauai. There are a few in South Africa, the antipodes to Kauai, and thus neither East or West (or both, depending on your preference). Therefore, I propose we hold a future meeting on Kauai. The Marriott there can be had for ~$220 in November; and although flights won't be cheap, they will be long so you get a lot more bang for your buck/euro/whatever. The major downside is the sand may be too hot and there is a danger of falling coconuts. Sound good to me. Marshall -hadriel On Aug 25, 2011, at 4:43 PM, Michal Krsek wrote: Dear sirs, I really appreciate your support to US venues, but please keep in mind, there are places eastern from Bermuda and western from Kauai. In addition there is also some land southern from El Paso. Lets say - Internet is for everyone. And, trust me or not, there are people that have no budget for intercontinental travel and their input is to the community work is valuable too. Sorry for this social two cents in this engineering list. Regards Michal Krsek ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
...and, at least in this case, if you look at similar hotels (e.g. the Starwood properties) in the area, you'll find that even the current pre-book-non-refundable-no-breakfast-in-some-cases-no-internet rates will be higher than the rate offered to us. There are also cheaper hotels, so it's all about having the benefits of staying at/very-close-to the meeting, or having to do some walk. -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan Sent: 23. elokuuta 2011 23:34 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy? On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 11:29:34AM -0700, David Morris wrote: For this to be a meaningful disccusion re. the success or lack there of, we need to compare what we have vs. similar sized groups in the same season, etc. at the same venue. _And_ having negotiated at the same time, as Ray pointed out already in this thread. Every time one of these discussions comes up, people seem to forget that the negotiations are happening several years in advance of the actual event. Agreements about the future almost always require the party buying to take some risk that they will be paying more than the going rate at the time the actual sale date arrives. In the case of hotel agreements, the block negotiator takes some risk that there will be a lower price or otherwise better terms actually available at the time of the block being used. The hotel takes some risk that the block negotiator is unable to deliver the actual room occupancy negotiated. Each is making a bet. If you don't like the cancellation terms (or other terms of the bet), don't participate in it: don't make a reservation in the IETF block. A -- Andrew Sullivan a...@anvilwalrusden.com ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Aug 24, 2011, at 1:44 AM, Glen Zorn wrote: Unfortunately, since the meeting fees are tied to the block occupancy (via conference room charges, etc.), this puts us in a double-bind situation: the smaller the block, the higher the other fees. This is the concern that I expressed during the plenary in QC, that because of exorbitant hotel rates (and consequent lack of occupancy) the meeting fees would themselves become exorbitant to compensate, the end result being that major corporate support would be mandatory for attendants: independents, academics and even employees of small companies need not apply. I hope we don't want to go there... we're pretty close to there already. Keith ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Aug 23, 2011, at 1:34 AM, John C Klensin wrote: --On Monday, August 22, 2011 20:16 -0400 Ray Pelletier rpellet...@isoc.org wrote: ... As for the rates, they are high. Taiwan is expensive, particularly given that the hotels know what our options are when we book the TICC. The Hyatt knew that foreign visitors needed to use the Hyatt as headquarters and charged accordingly. Since the time of our site visit, 2 new hotels have been constructed in the vicinity of the TICC (Le Meridien and W), which may provide more competition for Hyatt in these circumstances. At the time we were working on this event, there were no acceptable options. Ray, I know you want to find sponsors and go where the sponsors want to go. I accept the explanation that you negotiated as hard as you could for both room rates and cancellation policies. But I have to wonder, especially in the light of Lixia's observation about the US Govt rate (which, internationally, is often a pretty good measure for the higher end of a reasonable rate in a given city), whether there is a stopping rule. We were told in Quebec that you had given up on one Southeast Asian city because rooms would have cost over USD 300 a night. I don't remember hearing about a sponsor there. What looks like USD 275 net is not all that much less than USD 300, especially if the dollar continues to sink. So, if you had a sponsor for a future meeting at that other location, would an estimated USD 300 be acceptable? USD 350? I obviously don't have all of the information available to me that you and the IAOC do, but it seems to be there is always another alternative. If there are no local ones, that alternative is usually described as just say no and go elsewhere. What I'm trying to understand, mostly for the future and with the understanding that it is presumably much too late for Taipei and the several following meetings, is whether you would ever consider that an option for a meeting for which you have a sponsor if you hold it in a particular place or if you and the IAOC really believe there is no alternative under those circumstances. The IAOC has adopted a program of booking venues 3 years in advance. This will open up more venue choices as we found that even 2 years out we were shut out of places. The other effect is that these venue decisions will be made for the most part without sponsors and sponsors driving meeting locations. Typically sponsors become engaged 18 or fewer months before a meeting, probably for budgetary reasons. Many places they just don't need our business, and don't budge from their $300+USD guest room rates, or their $350k + cost for meeting space. We turn elsewhere. The meeting in Paris was going to be in another major European city for which we were actively engaged in a discussion with a Host. However, the venue was outside the city center, so the plug was pulled and moved to Paris - where we still do not have a Host. Sponsors welcome! The points are that the IAOC is not going to select a poor venue because it may have a sponsor; nor a $300+ USD guest room rate for the headquarters hotel. Ray john john ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
$300/night is far too high a ceiling for a guest room rate. A more reasonable ceiling would be in the ballpark of $150. On Aug 24, 2011, at 8:18 AM, Ray Pelletier wrote: The points are that the IAOC is not going to select a poor venue because it may have a sponsor; nor a $300+ USD guest room rate for the headquarters hotel. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
IAOC, travel and hotel prices (was RE: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?)
I've been watching this discussion across several attendee lists, plenaries, etc and it appears that we have a routing loop. Perhaps it's time for those who seem most concerned about this to author a BCP draft regarding IETF meeting venue and hotel selection policies that addresses this, so that IAOC has a bit clearer instructions and a documented policy based on community consensus, rather than this discussion continuing to come up every couple of meetings, and the general response from the IAOC being this is hard, we're doing the best we can... [example, explanation] Not to say that I doubt the intentions or efforts of any of the IAOC folks past or present, but the theme I keep seeing in these discussions is a request for both transparency and price sensitivity, and I'm not sure that the feedback is being acknowledged so much as it is being treated as a request for explanation of the extenuating circumstances. It may also be advisable for the IAOC to start asking a few questions (via survey, for example): 1) What (if any) guidelines do(es) you(r company) follow for allowable hotel costs? 2) Would you prefer to subsidize the cost of the meeting venue with the cost of the hotel room, or via higher registration fees (or evenly split)? 3) Would you prefer the meetings to center on a few locations and negotiate an extremely good deal for repeat attendance (e.g. OFC/NFOEC, etc). a. Indefinitely rotate between the same 3 locations? b. Rotate on a 2 year basis (6 different locations) c. Rotate on a 3 year basis (9 different locations) d. Option a, but pick new venues every 2 or 3 years e. Status quo (venues completely variable) Additional questions about air travel and mass transit (the other perennial travel topics) might also be a good idea. Do it every year, or every 2 years or after every meeting when the previous meeting (good and bad) is still fresh in everyone's mind. Thanks Wes George From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Keith Moore Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 8:37 AM To: Ray Pelletier Cc: John C Klensin; Secretariat IETF; IETF-Discussion list; Lixia Zhang Subject: Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy? $300/night is far too high a ceiling for a guest room rate. A more reasonable ceiling would be in the ballpark of $150. On Aug 24, 2011, at 8:18 AM, Ray Pelletier wrote: The points are that the IAOC is not going to select a poor venue because it may have a sponsor; nor a $300+ USD guest room rate for the headquarters hotel. This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Keith Moore Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 8:37 AM To: Ray Pelletier Cc: John C Klensin; Secretariat IETF; IETF-Discussion list; Lixia Zhang Subject: Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy? $300/night is far too high a ceiling for a guest room rate. A more reasonable ceiling would be in the ballpark of $150. I don't understand why we keep throwing around hard and fast dollar figures. Every person, whether paying their own way or using a corporate expense account is going to have a different view of what is ok vs what is unacceptably high, and that may or may not line up with the market rate reality of the actual location chosen. As others have pointed out in the past, the only limit that would make sense is to use something like the US gov't max travel rate guidelines, which are indexed to things like USD value vs. local currency, average cost by location, etc. We would likely need a percentage multiplier to compensate for the fact that we ask for breakfast, internet service, and conference fees to be waived in lieu of a cheaper hotel rate, but I think that's a reasonable rule of thumb. If there are alternative sources for the same data from EU or APAC government sources, they could also be used, but lots of folks already know about the US gov ones. US domestic rates are here: http://www.gsa.gov/portal/category/21287 International ones here: http://aoprals.state.gov/content.asp?content_id=184menu_id=78 If this becomes the stated policy, it makes available the negotiation tactic to note that we have a lot of members who follow the guidelines set forth here as far as how much they are allowed to spend per night for a hotel, if you insist on exceeding this by more than X%, we'll be forced to go elsewhere. Wes George This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 12:27:30PM +0700, Glen Zorn wrote: advance of the actual event. Agreements about the future almost always require the party buying to take some risk that they will be paying more than the going rate at the time the actual sale date arrives. This can be minimized, though, right? Maybe the conference room rate could be set at a percentage of the rack rate, for example. I totally fail to see how that's going to help. IAOC: We want a rate at about $150. Hotel: We charge $300 a night. or IAOC: We want a rate at about $150. Hotel: We can give you a % of rack rate. IAOC: What is the rack rate? Hotel: $1000/night. IAOC: We want a rate of 15% of rack rate. Hotel: We will not go below 30%. Worse, the second case requires that the IAOC also negotiate a freeze in the rack rate. Every business problem can also be solved by another layer of indirection. A -- Andrew Sullivan a...@anvilwalrusden.com ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Aug 24, 2011, at 9:34 AM, George, Wesley wrote: From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Keith Moore Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 8:37 AM To: Ray Pelletier Cc: John C Klensin; Secretariat IETF; IETF-Discussion list; Lixia Zhang Subject: Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy? $300/night is far too high a ceiling for a guest room rate. A more reasonable ceiling would be in the ballpark of $150. I don’t understand why we keep throwing around hard and fast dollar figures. Every person, whether paying their own way or using a corporate expense account is going to have a different view of what is ok vs what is unacceptably high, and that may or may not line up with the market rate reality of the actual location chosen. As others have pointed out in the past, the only limit that would make sense is to use something like the US gov’t max travel rate guidelines, which are indexed to things like USD value vs. local currency, average cost by location, etc. [...] I think you're missing my point. I'm concerned about the total cost of attending an IETF meeting, or IETF meetings in general. The per night room rate obviously isn't the only factor. But when the room rate goes much above $150/night, it starts to become a very significant factor, often the most significant factor, in total travel cost. More broadly, when IETF negotiators start thinking it's okay for rooms to cost much more than $150 per night, there's a serious disconnect going on. Maybe they don't realize it, but at that point they're actively working to exclude participation from those not supported by large companies or governments. I'm not arguing for a hard, fixed ceiling for room rates or anything else. I'm saying that the average total cost of attending an IETF meeting needs to be kept down. (Having said that, I personally don't mind if the conference hotel is expensive as long as there are reasonably priced alternatives nearby. In Quebec City I stayed at a very nice hotel in the old town, about 5 minutes' walk away. But I also realize that for some participants, even that distance might be a significant burden.) Whether the room cost is reasonable for a particular location matters if you're getting reimbursed by someone who will only pay the USG per diem rate. And for those in that situation, it's a valid concern. It's just not what I happen to be concerned about. Keith p.s. I keep thinking that we should try, at least once, holding a meeting on a college campus between semesters. Colleges tend to have lots of meeting space, campus networks with wi-fi, lots of food available nearby (though perhaps not fine lunches and dinners), and the ones that have popular sports teams tend to have plenty of nearby hotel rooms available at reasonable prices in the off season. Some colleges will want to charge conference center rates, but I bet that there are lots of colleges struggling to make ends meet that might be willing to cut a deal. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IAOC, travel and hotel prices (was RE: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?)
At 06:31 24-08-2011, George, Wesley wrote: Perhaps its time for those who seem most concerned about this to author a BCP draft regarding IETF meeting venue and hotel selection policies that addresses this, so that See draft-palet-ietf-meeting-venue-selection-criteria-04 (expired). IAOC has a bit clearer instructions and a documented policy based on community consensus, rather than this discussion continuing to come up every couple of meetings, and the general response from the IAOC being this is hard, were doing the best we can [example, explanation] It's safer to stick to a tried strategy. Not to say that I doubt the intentions or efforts of any of the IAOC folks past or present, but the theme I keep seeing in these discussions is a request for both transparency and price sensitivity, and Im not sure that the feedback is being acknowledged so much as it is being treated as a request for explanation of the extenuating circumstances. My guess is that the contact covers: (a) Guest substitution (b) Client attrition (c) Guaranteed reservations and the terms for a refund (d) Reservation cut-off (e) Hotel rate after cut-off Some of the information could probably be made available at the time of the announcement of the venue selection. Although it still won't be possible to select a different venue, it gives the community ample time to complain. Glen Zorn mentioned that the end result being that major corporate support would be mandatory for attendants: independents, academics and even employees of small companies need not apply. Lixia Zhang mentioned that up to now IETF hotel prices have been within the federal per diem allowance. Peter Saint-Andre mentioned that thanks to tips from other cost-conscious IETFers, [he] was able to find hotels costing $100. Ray mentioned that Many places they just don't need our business. A rough number for hotel and travel costs might be as follows: U.S. to Taiwan: $3,619 U.K. to Taiwan: $3,765 China to Taiwan:$3,094 U.S. to Paris: $3,841 U.K. to Paris: $2,325 China to Paris: $3,780 U.S. to Vancouver: $3,226 U.K. to Vancouver: $5,535 China to Vancouver: $4,212 The question of cross-subsidization has not been brought into the discussion yet. There is also the question of rotation across continents. Over the years U.S. IETF participation (used loosely) has dropped to 50%. IETF participation from the European Union has increased to 25%. IETF participation from Asia has increased to 15%. The choice of IETF meeting venue has an impact on U.S. participation. Based on the above numbers, I would have concluded that it shouldn't. I doubt that U.S. participants encounter visa issues. Maybe it is because those without major corporate support find the attendance too expensive. Is there any hypothesis about why this type of discussion does not occur when a venue in the U.S. is selected? Regards, -sm ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On 08/24/2011 07:47 AM, Keith Moore wrote: Maybe they don't realize it, but at that point they're actively working to exclude participation from those not supported by large companies or governments. It seems to me that this is a very, very important point. Melinda ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
Melinda == Melinda Shore melinda.sh...@gmail.com writes: Melinda On 08/24/2011 07:47 AM, Keith Moore wrote: Maybe they don't realize it, but at that point they're actively working to exclude participation from those not supported by large companies or governments. Melinda It seems to me that this is a very, very important point. I'd like to underscore this poin. I'd like to make two others. 1) We don't have to go to any particular location. There has been an assumption made by people in this discussion that sometimes when we pick locations with particularly expensive hotels, we'll get particularly expensive meetings. That's great except that we were the ones who chose to go to those locations. If we can't meet our cost targets at a location, go somewhere else. 2) If I had to say yes or no in a parliamentary vote of confidence in the IAOC, today my answer would probably be no. I feel that a lot of concerns have been raised, and I don't find the responses very convincing. When I've looked into issues with the IAOC, I haven't found the visibility necessary to really evaluate things. That to me is not a good combination. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 15:09, Melinda Shore melinda.sh...@gmail.com wrote: On 08/24/2011 07:47 AM, Keith Moore wrote: Maybe they don't realize it, but at that point they're actively working to exclude participation from those not supported by large companies or governments. It seems to me that this is a very, very important point. I haven't stayed in the main hotel for a number of IETFs, in order to save money, but I haven't had trouble finding a good place to stay, in various cities around the world. IMHO the IETF can continue to book rooms at a hotel that has good support for foreigners and is adjacent to the meeting facility, but also make sure there is good transportation so that people -- most people perhaps -- can stay elsewhere. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
Let me just point out that the IETF community has expressed a strong preference for: * One roof venues, meeting space in HQ hotel or HQ hotel next to convention center. * Cities, not resorts, because the former yields many more accomodation options for those who wish to stay in HQ hotel alternatives. * Sticking to our fixed dates, published up to 5 years in advance. I think you will find that the one-roof solution does indeed lead to fairly expensive HQ properties, this is more or less true all over the world and is currently made much worse by the weak dollar. The fixed date restriction (which is good in my view) also contributes to challenges with venue availability. We been told more than once that if you do it a week later or earlier... Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo On Wed, 24 Aug 2011, Sam Hartman wrote: Melinda == Melinda Shore melinda.sh...@gmail.com writes: Melinda On 08/24/2011 07:47 AM, Keith Moore wrote: Maybe they don't realize it, but at that point they're actively working to exclude participation from those not supported by large companies or governments. Melinda It seems to me that this is a very, very important point. I'd like to underscore this poin. I'd like to make two others. 1) We don't have to go to any particular location. There has been an assumption made by people in this discussion that sometimes when we pick locations with particularly expensive hotels, we'll get particularly expensive meetings. That's great except that we were the ones who chose to go to those locations. If we can't meet our cost targets at a location, go somewhere else. 2) If I had to say yes or no in a parliamentary vote of confidence in the IAOC, today my answer would probably be no. I feel that a lot of concerns have been raised, and I don't find the responses very convincing. When I've looked into issues with the IAOC, I haven't found the visibility necessary to really evaluate things. That to me is not a good combination. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On 8/24/2011 12:28 PM, Sam Hartman wrote: I feel that a lot of concerns have been raised, and I don't find the responses very convincing. As the new guy on the IAOC block, I'm still learning the complexities of IETF venue planning. Perhaps you can list the concerns that have been raised and -- as an efficiency filter -- are shared among a significant base of the community? It would also help to see what responses have been offered and what is unsatisfactory about them. When I've looked into issues with the IAOC, I haven't found the visibility necessary to really evaluate things. The issue of transparency/visibility has been raised a couple of times in this thread. While I understand it as a general concept, I'm not clear how to apply it pragmatically here. I don't understand what folks should be done differently /in specific/ that would continue to permit a practical process of event planning. To use an extreme example: A completely fishbowl model of administrative process, in which every discussion and decision is explored under full view of the entire community, is not practical. d/ ps. As a personal aside, I'll note that I've lobbied rather vigorously for venues that entail less travel effort, by eliminating the additional hop needed to get from a major hub. Note that that has gotten essentially zero support from the community. The community has vigrously expressed a preference for interesting venues rather than ones that are chosen solely for logistics convenience. -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On 8/24/11 2:11 PM, Dave CROCKER wrote: ps. As a personal aside, I'll note that I've lobbied rather vigorously for venues that entail less travel effort, by eliminating the additional hop needed to get from a major hub. Note that that has gotten essentially zero support from the community. The community has vigrously expressed a preference for interesting venues rather than ones that are chosen solely for logistics convenience. As long as a relatively large percentage of IETF folks see meetings as an opportunity to sight-see, I don't think we'll see much support for rotating among a small set of major hub locations. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 15:28 -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: 1) We don't have to go to any particular location. There has been an assumption made by people in this discussion that sometimes when we pick locations with particularly expensive hotels, we'll get particularly expensive meetings. That's great except that we were the ones who chose to go to those locations. If we can't meet our cost targets at a location, go somewhere else. Sam makes a really good point here. We didn't have to go to Taipei. For some reason we chose to go to Taipei. When the IAOC was looking at places years ago was the dollar so strong that the hotel was cheap - I doubt it. It was probably just as expensive back then. It should have just been dropped from the list and the city as wel. The hotel (and host if there was on) could/should have been told - sorry too expensive. There was never a requirement to go to Taipei. There was never a requirement to go to Maastricht with the 3 train changes and hotels spread out and not under a single roof, awful cancellation policy (unless you booked it separately from the IETF). Nice place, but no one ordered us to go to Maastricht. I liked Hiroshima, but even it was not easy to get to (multiple trains). We seem to be limiting attendance to people from large companies just so that we can meet everywhere in the world. If it isn't relatively inexpensive then we say, sorry we can't go there. So what. We don't have to visit every country. I know that this is blasphemous but why can't we meet in just a couple of the same places over and over again -- yeah it's boring for those that want to be a tourist, but I go to work and would prefer a venue that has good/easy access (major airport nearby) with a cheapish hotel and a decent cancellation policy. geoff PS - Lets just go to Minneapolis 3 times a year - bet we can get a great rate and the US dollar is on-sale! ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On 8/24/2011 1:18 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: As long as a relatively large percentage of IETF folks see meetings as an opportunity to sight-see, I don't think we'll see much support for rotating among a small set of major hub locations. +1 But it's worse than relatively large percent. There's absolutely no minority constituency that is vocal about wanting this to change. That's why I declared myself giving up on this topic. -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On 8/24/11 2:23 PM, Dave CROCKER wrote: On 8/24/2011 1:18 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: As long as a relatively large percentage of IETF folks see meetings as an opportunity to sight-see, I don't think we'll see much support for rotating among a small set of major hub locations. +1 But it's worse than relatively large percent. There's absolutely no minority constituency that is vocal about wanting this to change. I'd be perfectly happy to rotate among the same 5 or 6 places all the time, but my motto is dare to be dull. Plus I'm not sure how such a policy would work with sponsorships, because a number of recent sponsors presumably preferred the meeting to happen in their country for reasons of national pride or convenience. That's why I declared myself giving up on this topic. Sure, one can tilt at a particular windmill for only so long... Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
Dave == Dave CROCKER d...@dcrocker.net writes: Dave ps. As a personal aside, I'll note that I've lobbied rather Dave vigorously for venues that entail less travel effort, by Dave eliminating the additional hop needed to get from a major hub. Dave Note that that has gotten essentially zero support from the Dave community. The community has vigrously expressed a preference Dave for interesting venues rather than ones that are chosen Dave solely for logistics convenience. Can you start by backing up the assertion that the community has vigrously expressed a preference for interesting venues? I may just need a new IETF community:-) ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
Maybe the majority doesn't care one way or the other - they will just go wherever the meetings are held in which case: let's make them easy to get to cheap decent food one roof (with other hotels near-by) cheap and easy to get to You could pick Rosemont, IL (next to O'hare) for every meeting (oops, sorry - misses on decent food). geoff On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 13:23 -0700, Dave CROCKER wrote: On 8/24/2011 1:18 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: As long as a relatively large percentage of IETF folks see meetings as an opportunity to sight-see, I don't think we'll see much support for rotating among a small set of major hub locations. +1 But it's worse than relatively large percent. There's absolutely no minority constituency that is vocal about wanting this to change. That's why I declared myself giving up on this topic. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On 8/24/2011 1:27 PM, Sam Hartman wrote: Can you start by backing up the assertion that the community has vigrously expressed a preference for interesting venues? I may just need a new IETF community:-) gosh, I hadn't thought that that was less than obvious, given the vote for quebec and many, many comments about venue choice over the years. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 4:30 PM, Dave CROCKER dcroc...@bbiw.net wrote: On 8/24/2011 1:27 PM, Sam Hartman wrote: Can you start by backing up the assertion that the community has vigrously expressed a preference for interesting venues? I may just need a new IETF community:-) gosh, I hadn't thought that that was less than obvious, given the vote for quebec and many, many comments about venue choice over the years. I'm one who really liked Minneapolis - we had excellent meeting space, places to run into each other, reasonable food access, and a clueful hotel. Is it interesting to go to new places? Sure and if I'm lucky I might get a morning or afternoon to look around. Would I be perfectly happy going to the same 2-3 places every year? Absolutely. Alia ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IAOC, travel and hotel prices (was RE: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?)
At 10:49 AM -0700 8/24/11, SM wrote: Is there any hypothesis about why this type of discussion does not occur when a venue in the U.S. is selected? Maybe because when the venue is in the U.S., hotel prices tend to be lower, and immigration hassles (fingerprints and rude treatment) and visa problems dominate the complaints? -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;facts are suspect;I speak for myself only -- Randomly selected tag: --- ...neither the whole of truth nor the whole of good is revealed to any single observer, although each observer gains a partial superiority of insight from the peculiar position in which he stands.' --William James, 1899 ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Aug 24, 2011, at 4:33 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 4:30 PM, Dave CROCKER dcroc...@bbiw.net wrote: On 8/24/2011 1:27 PM, Sam Hartman wrote: Can you start by backing up the assertion that the community has vigrously expressed a preference for interesting venues? I may just need a new IETF community:-) gosh, I hadn't thought that that was less than obvious, given the vote for quebec and many, many comments about venue choice over the years. I'm one who really liked Minneapolis - we had excellent meeting space, places to run into each other, reasonable food access, and a clueful hotel. Is it interesting to go to new places? Sure and if I'm lucky I might get a morning or afternoon to look around. Would I be perfectly happy going to the same 2-3 places every year? Absolutely. I am with you on that. I do not attend IETFs as a vacation and sight-seeing opportunity. --Tom Alia ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On 8/24/2011 1:34 PM, geoff wrote: I agree. I think that there is a vocal minority that wants this. I don't think that community as a whole really cares. Sorry, but the vote on Quebec City, and the recent, follow-on commentary are far more substantial and proportionally dominant than a vocal minority. If there is, indeed, a significant constituency that would prefer a strict focus on -- for example -- cost, to the exclusion of such things as -- for example -- going to new venues, it needs to speak up and make its requirements far more clear and consensus-based than has happened so far. Stray postings of personal preference might help to start the process, but they won't achieve much on their own. d/ ps. Underlying any sort of change to the model is a change in the nature of host/sponsor recruitment. The current approach uses new venues to aid in finding new sponsors. -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On 08/24/2011 12:23 PM, Dave CROCKER wrote: But it's worse than relatively large percent. There's absolutely no minority constituency that is vocal about wanting this to change. That's why I declared myself giving up on this topic. I wonder how many of us have done exactly this. One of the most productive meetings I've ever participated in was a conference program committee meeting at the Logan Hilton. No distractions and everybody was there to work. Melinda ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Geoff Mulligan geoff.i...@mulligan.com wrote: ... You could pick Rosemont, IL (next to O'hare) for every meeting (oops, sorry - misses on decent food). Minneapolis or Chicago, one place doesn't make it. The policy of the IETF has been to meet where the attendees come from, although with some projection into the future. So I thought we were currently trying to equalize meetings in North America, Europe, and Asia. So it is an absolute minimum of three places. Donald geoff On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 13:23 -0700, Dave CROCKER wrote: On 8/24/2011 1:18 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: As long as a relatively large percentage of IETF folks see meetings as an opportunity to sight-see, I don't think we'll see much support for rotating among a small set of major hub locations. +1 But it's worse than relatively large percent. There's absolutely no minority constituency that is vocal about wanting this to change. That's why I declared myself giving up on this topic. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Wed, 24 Aug 2011, Dave CROCKER wrote: ps. Underlying any sort of change to the model is a change in the nature of host/sponsor recruitment. The current approach uses new venues to aid in finding new sponsors. Not quite. But you are correct that sponsors/hosts often strongly influence the choice of venue and let's not forget that there are places (China for example) where we could NOT do a meeting without a host [regardless of any financial considerations]. There may not be many such places, but the do exist. Ole ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
Geoff Mulligan geoff.i...@mulligan.com writes: Maybe the majority doesn't care one way or the other - they will just go wherever the meetings are held in which case: let's make them easy to get to cheap decent food one roof (with other hotels near-by) cheap and easy to get to Having watched this debate play out in multiple venues (ICANN goes all around the world 3x a year as well) over multiple years, I've come to the following main conclusion: 1) you can't please all the people all the time, and there will be griping no matter what we do. We've got 1200 attendees. That's a lot of folk who have differing ideas of what is important. 2) There is no perfect solution. There are too many variables, not all of which are known in advance. And, everyone weighs various factors differently. Convenience of travel, for instance, is very different for US-based folk vs. Chinese and Australians. 3) The absolutely most important thing to get right is a meeting venue that works for getting work done. In my mind, the really key things here are: a) everyone can (easily) walk to the meeting site (this facilitates mingling, including at the bar) b) there is ample local food within walking distance (again for mingling/meetings) c) proper facilities (adequate meeting room, wireless, range of room rate options, and yes, I suppose cookies, etc.) If you get the above right, the other inconveniences don't matter (except maybe visa hassles). Or more precisely, folk can (and just should) deal with it. Seriously, taking one extra plane hop (or gasp! riding a train!) is just noise, when talking about a meeting that lasts 5+ solid days. I'd much rather take an extra hop to get to a meeting venue that works well, then save a few hours travel time to reach a venue that doesn't have places to eat. Etc. Hub cities are no panacea. I too like Minneapolis. As a venue, it meets the key IETF needs as better than most places we've visited. It has good airline connectivity (not perfect, but good). It meets the key criteria above. You can also walk everywhere underground in the winter, so the argument that it's too cold seems specious. Etc. But does everyone like Minneapolis? Apparently not. I'm told that the IAOC has stopped going there because they were getting too many complaints. People do get tired of going to the same places, even if a location works. I've concluded that going to new places is better than hubs. Even though I rarely take vacation in conjunction with meetings, getting 1/2 a day to sight see or even being able to walk into town for dinner in a new location is a positive thing over being at the same places too often. Thomas ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On 24 Aug 2011, at 21:58, Donald Eastlake wrote: On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Geoff Mulligan geoff.i...@mulligan.com wrote: ... You could pick Rosemont, IL (next to O'hare) for every meeting (oops, sorry - misses on decent food). Minneapolis or Chicago, one place doesn't make it. The policy of the IETF has been to meet where the attendees come from, although with some projection into the future. So I thought we were currently trying to equalize meetings in North America, Europe, and Asia. So it is an absolute minimum of three places. That's a fair point, and the three region split is in principle the right thing to do. But I think Taipei's prices are the highest I've seen for the venue hotel, and the organising committee should take note of the comments about that, and the cancellation policy, for future venue selections. I am also a fan of Minneapolis. I just looked at Hilton IETF venue prices there for the IETF82 week. There are king rooms under $200 a night direct from the hotel with a good cancellation policy, and that's without any negotiated price. That's a $500-$600 difference in cost over the 5-6 nights people would typically stay. I'm interested in how much sponsors contribute, and how that compares to $500 less in hotel fees over a week times 1,200 attendees. The Hilton Prague also has rooms at $200 the same week. The idea of exploring a university campus is an interesting one. Tim ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [IETF] Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Aug 24, 2011, at 5:28 PM, Thomas Narten wrote: Geoff Mulligan geoff.i...@mulligan.com writes: Maybe the majority doesn't care one way or the other - they will just go wherever the meetings are held in which case: let's make them easy to get to cheap decent food one roof (with other hotels near-by) cheap and easy to get to Having watched this debate play out in multiple venues (ICANN goes all around the world 3x a year as well) over multiple years, I've come to the following main conclusion: 1) you can't please all the people all the time, and there will be griping no matter what we do. We've got 1200 attendees. That's a lot of folk who have differing ideas of what is important. +lots And the folk who are happy with the status quo / apathetic / just glad that they don't have to choose locations are likely to be silent, so the tone of the conversation is very negative. I probably fall into the apathetic / glad it's not me category -- I care about: 1: Being able to meet and get work done. 2: Having a hotel really close / attached to the venue (so I can drop my bag off between sessions and dinner). 3: Having sort of food somewhere nearby. I view the meeting as work time, not vacation time -- if we meet in a resort in the Alps or a hotel in New Jersey, it's all the same to me (and, I suspect, to many) and so I haven't been very vocal on this thread... 2) There is no perfect solution. There are too many variables, not all of which are known in advance. And, everyone weighs various factors differently. Convenience of travel, for instance, is very different for US-based folk vs. Chinese and Australians. 3) The absolutely most important thing to get right is a meeting venue that works for getting work done. In my mind, the really key things here are: a) everyone can (easily) walk to the meeting site (this facilitates mingling, including at the bar) b) there is ample local food within walking distance (again for mingling/meetings) c) proper facilities (adequate meeting room, wireless, range of room rate options, and yes, I suppose cookies, etc.) If you get the above right, the other inconveniences don't matter (except maybe visa hassles). Or more precisely, folk can (and just should) deal with it. 100% agree. Seriously, taking one extra plane hop (or gasp! riding a train!) is just noise, when talking about a meeting that lasts 5+ solid days. I'd much rather take an extra hop to get to a meeting venue that works well, then save a few hours travel time to reach a venue that doesn't have places to eat. Etc. Hub cities are no panacea. I too like Minneapolis. As a venue, it meets the key IETF needs as better than most places we've visited. It has good airline connectivity (not perfect, but good). It meets the key criteria above. You can also walk everywhere underground in the winter, so the argument that it's too cold seems specious. Etc. But does everyone like Minneapolis? Apparently not. I'm told that the IAOC has stopped going there because they were getting too many complaints. People do get tired of going to the same places, even if a location works. I've concluded that going to new places is better than hubs. Even though I rarely take vacation in conjunction with meetings, getting 1/2 a day to sight see or even being able to walk into town for dinner in a new location is a positive thing over being at the same places too often. And I've concluded that the IAOC have a crappy job to do and that folk like to kvetch. If they found a private Caribbean island with free flights and a 5 star resort for $10USD per night, *someone* would complain that the sand was too hot and the falling coconuts were a hazard... W Thomas ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 16:27 -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: Dave == Dave CROCKER d...@dcrocker.net writes: Dave ps. As a personal aside, I'll note that I've lobbied rather Dave vigorously for venues that entail less travel effort, by Dave eliminating the additional hop needed to get from a major hub. Dave Note that that has gotten essentially zero support from the Dave community. The community has vigrously expressed a preference Dave for interesting venues rather than ones that are chosen Dave solely for logistics convenience. Can you start by backing up the assertion that the community has vigrously expressed a preference for interesting venues? I may just need a new IETF community:-) I agree. I think that there is a vocal minority that wants this. I don't think that community as a whole really cares. We had this huge debate about the number of times (down to fractions of times) to visit each area of the world so as to increase participation and we then have locations that make it difficult to get to or expensive or both and expensive to get to which limits participation. I like Santa Clara, CA geoff ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [IETF] Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 18:44 -0400, Warren Kumari wrote: And I've concluded that the IAOC have a crappy job to do and that folk like to kvetch. If they found a private Caribbean island with free flights and a 5 star resort for $10USD per night, *someone* would complain that the sand was too hot and the falling coconuts were a hazard... While that may be true, those complaints are much different than, I can't afford to travel to the meeting site or I can't afford the hotel. geoff ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IAOC, travel and hotel prices (was RE: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?)
On 8/24/2011 8:31 PM, George, Wesley wrote: I’ve been watching this discussion across several attendee lists, plenaries, etc and it appears that we have a routing loop. Perhaps it’s time for those who seem most concerned about this to author a BCP draft regarding IETF meeting venue and hotel selection policies that addresses this, so that IAOC has a bit clearer instructions and a documented policy based on community consensus, rather than this discussion continuing to come up every couple of meetings, and the general response from the IAOC being “this is hard, we’re doing the best we can… [example, explanation]” I think that a large part of the problem is that the IAOC is attempting to satisfy policies based upon consensus. Unfortunately, the consensus seems to be largely centered around convenience (if not outright luxury), a goal that is mostly incompatible with cost containment. Most people seem to want to be able to commute to sessions by (at most) walking across the street, more preferably via elevator. A large conveniently located bar is very popular, as well. Convenience costs money. ... ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IAOC, travel and hotel prices (was RE: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?)
On 8/24/11 9:05 PM, Glen Zorn wrote: I think that a large part of the problem is that the IAOC is attempting to satisfy policies based upon consensus. Really? Consensus of whom? I haven't seen anything remotely like consensus on much to do with meeting logistics. Closest we seem to have come is a couple of surveys, which apparently were treated something like votes by the people who worry about such things. Melinda ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IAOC, travel and hotel prices (was RE: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?)
At 12:05 PM +0700 8/25/11, Glen Zorn wrote: Most people seem to want to be able to commute to sessions by (at most) walking across the street, more preferably via elevator. A large conveniently located bar is very popular, as well. These are factors which help contribute to a successful meeting by making it easier to bump into people. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;facts are suspect;I speak for myself only -- Randomly selected tag: --- Peace: In international affairs, a period of cheating between two periods of fighting. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: IAOC, travel and hotel prices (was RE: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?)
On 8/25/2011 12:10 PM, Melinda Shore wrote: On 8/24/11 9:05 PM, Glen Zorn wrote: I think that a large part of the problem is that the IAOC is attempting to satisfy policies based upon consensus. Really? Consensus of whom? I haven't seen anything remotely like consensus on much to do with meeting logistics. Closest we seem to have come is a couple of surveys, which apparently were treated something like votes by the people who worry about such things. Hmm. What is this thread ( the many on essentially the same topic that have preceded it)? If I had to call consensus on it, I would characterize it as one roof, easy to get to, convenient for socializing (that, interestingly, often from those who claim to only go to work). All of those things add up to big hotel in big city, which is always expensive. Melinda ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Aug 23, 2011, at 1:34 AM, John C Klensin john-i...@jck.com wrote: --On Monday, August 22, 2011 20:16 -0400 Ray Pelletier rpellet...@isoc.org wrote: ... As for the rates, they are high. Taiwan is expensive, particularly given that the hotels know what our options are when we book the TICC. The Hyatt knew that foreign visitors needed to use the Hyatt as headquarters and charged accordingly. Since the time of our site visit, 2 new hotels have been constructed in the vicinity of the TICC (Le Meridien and W), which may provide more competition for Hyatt in these circumstances. At the time we were working on this event, there were no acceptable options. Ray, I know you want to find sponsors and go where the sponsors want to go. I accept the explanation that you negotiated as hard as you could for both room rates and cancellation policies. But I have to wonder, especially in the light of Lixia's observation about the US Govt rate (which, internationally, is often a pretty good measure for the higher end of a reasonable rate in a given city), whether there is a stopping rule. We were told in Quebec that you had given up on one Southeast Asian city because rooms would have cost over USD 300 a night. I don't remember hearing about a sponsor there. What looks like USD 275 net is not all that much less than USD 300, especially if the dollar continues to sink. So, if you had a sponsor for a future meeting at that other location, would an estimated USD 300 be acceptable? USD 350? I obviously don't have all of the information available to me that you and the IAOC do, but it seems to be there is always another alternative. If there are no local ones, that alternative is usually described as just say no and go elsewhere. What I'm trying to understand, mostly for the future and with the understanding that it is presumably much too late for Taipei and the several following meetings, is whether you would ever consider that an option for a meeting for which you have a sponsor if you hold it in a particular place or if you and the IAOC really believe there is no alternative under those circumstances. I think we need to adopt a simple rule of thumb whereby we do not book venues where room rates of less than $200 USD are unavailable - sponsor or otherwise. Tom john john ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
The room rate I see is 8500 TWD, which is $293 a night. That is a Grand King room, for 2 people. If you don't put G-23ET in the corporate/group box, it gets much worse! I'm guessing the web link on the IETF site should read http://taipei.grand.hyatt.com/hyatt/hotels/index.jsp?extCorporateId=G-23ET to simplify that? On the plus side, flying out from Europe the time zones mean I don't need to stay Saturday night, so that actually puts the total hotel cost down, since the stay is 5 nights not the usual 6 (remembering that you need to fly in/out including a Saturday night for the cheaper flight). Tim On 23 Aug 2011, at 12:57, Thomas Nadeau wrote: On Aug 23, 2011, at 1:34 AM, John C Klensin john-i...@jck.com wrote: --On Monday, August 22, 2011 20:16 -0400 Ray Pelletier rpellet...@isoc.org wrote: ... As for the rates, they are high. Taiwan is expensive, particularly given that the hotels know what our options are when we book the TICC. The Hyatt knew that foreign visitors needed to use the Hyatt as headquarters and charged accordingly. Since the time of our site visit, 2 new hotels have been constructed in the vicinity of the TICC (Le Meridien and W), which may provide more competition for Hyatt in these circumstances. At the time we were working on this event, there were no acceptable options. Ray, I know you want to find sponsors and go where the sponsors want to go. I accept the explanation that you negotiated as hard as you could for both room rates and cancellation policies. But I have to wonder, especially in the light of Lixia's observation about the US Govt rate (which, internationally, is often a pretty good measure for the higher end of a reasonable rate in a given city), whether there is a stopping rule. We were told in Quebec that you had given up on one Southeast Asian city because rooms would have cost over USD 300 a night. I don't remember hearing about a sponsor there. What looks like USD 275 net is not all that much less than USD 300, especially if the dollar continues to sink. So, if you had a sponsor for a future meeting at that other location, would an estimated USD 300 be acceptable? USD 350? I obviously don't have all of the information available to me that you and the IAOC do, but it seems to be there is always another alternative. If there are no local ones, that alternative is usually described as just say no and go elsewhere. What I'm trying to understand, mostly for the future and with the understanding that it is presumably much too late for Taipei and the several following meetings, is whether you would ever consider that an option for a meeting for which you have a sponsor if you hold it in a particular place or if you and the IAOC really believe there is no alternative under those circumstances. I think we need to adopt a simple rule of thumb whereby we do not book venues where room rates of less than $200 USD are unavailable - sponsor or otherwise. Tom john john ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
Oh, and *after* you book, it says Additional Charges 10.000 Percent service charge So the charge is 10% higher than what's displayed. It would be nice if the full charge was more up front. People checking for budget in advance may be unaware of this. Tim On 23 Aug 2011, at 13:22, Tim Chown wrote: The room rate I see is 8500 TWD, which is $293 a night. That is a Grand King room, for 2 people. If you don't put G-23ET in the corporate/group box, it gets much worse! I'm guessing the web link on the IETF site should read http://taipei.grand.hyatt.com/hyatt/hotels/index.jsp?extCorporateId=G-23ET to simplify that? On the plus side, flying out from Europe the time zones mean I don't need to stay Saturday night, so that actually puts the total hotel cost down, since the stay is 5 nights not the usual 6 (remembering that you need to fly in/out including a Saturday night for the cheaper flight). Tim On 23 Aug 2011, at 12:57, Thomas Nadeau wrote: On Aug 23, 2011, at 1:34 AM, John C Klensin john-i...@jck.com wrote: --On Monday, August 22, 2011 20:16 -0400 Ray Pelletier rpellet...@isoc.org wrote: ... As for the rates, they are high. Taiwan is expensive, particularly given that the hotels know what our options are when we book the TICC. The Hyatt knew that foreign visitors needed to use the Hyatt as headquarters and charged accordingly. Since the time of our site visit, 2 new hotels have been constructed in the vicinity of the TICC (Le Meridien and W), which may provide more competition for Hyatt in these circumstances. At the time we were working on this event, there were no acceptable options. Ray, I know you want to find sponsors and go where the sponsors want to go. I accept the explanation that you negotiated as hard as you could for both room rates and cancellation policies. But I have to wonder, especially in the light of Lixia's observation about the US Govt rate (which, internationally, is often a pretty good measure for the higher end of a reasonable rate in a given city), whether there is a stopping rule. We were told in Quebec that you had given up on one Southeast Asian city because rooms would have cost over USD 300 a night. I don't remember hearing about a sponsor there. What looks like USD 275 net is not all that much less than USD 300, especially if the dollar continues to sink. So, if you had a sponsor for a future meeting at that other location, would an estimated USD 300 be acceptable? USD 350? I obviously don't have all of the information available to me that you and the IAOC do, but it seems to be there is always another alternative. If there are no local ones, that alternative is usually described as just say no and go elsewhere. What I'm trying to understand, mostly for the future and with the understanding that it is presumably much too late for Taipei and the several following meetings, is whether you would ever consider that an option for a meeting for which you have a sponsor if you hold it in a particular place or if you and the IAOC really believe there is no alternative under those circumstances. I think we need to adopt a simple rule of thumb whereby we do not book venues where room rates of less than $200 USD are unavailable - sponsor or otherwise. Tom john john ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
From: Michael StJohns Could you refresh my memory as to which hotels we stayed at had this policy? I literally cannot remember having any hotel cancellation policy with more than a single night fee ever. Maastricht had particularly fierce cancellation rules. I don't remember the details, but under some circumstances you could have to pay for the entire stay. Dale ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
--On Tuesday, August 23, 2011 07:57 -0400 Thomas Nadeau tnad...@lucidvision.com wrote: I obviously don't have all of the information available to me that you and the IAOC do, but it seems to be there is always another alternative. If there are no local ones, that alternative is usually described as just say no and go elsewhere. What I'm trying to understand, mostly for the future and with the understanding that it is presumably much too late for Taipei and the several following meetings, is whether you would ever consider that an option for a meeting for which you have a sponsor if you hold it in a particular place or if you and the IAOC really believe there is no alternative under those circumstances. I think we need to adopt a simple rule of thumb whereby we do not book venues where room rates of less than $200 USD are unavailable - sponsor or otherwise. Tom, I'm usually not the one to leap to the defense of the IAOC on meeting costs, but I think we need to be very careful about such rules. For many of us, total cost of meeting -- total hotel room costs (which may be different from quoted rate), air fares and other transport, days away from home, meals, registration fee (for this meeting, I notice what I think is is a new incentive to register at the last minute prior to the early cutoff), even the cost of beer for those who depend on it to lubricate conversations -- is far more important than the hotel bill alone. In many cities, rooms quoted at USD 200 (or much less) are easy to find, but one can make up for it in taxi charges or Internet access surcharges. Others may have different constraints -- I've worked with companies for whom transport to a meeting comes out of different accounts than being there and therefore counts either more or less. And hotel (and other on-site) costs can fluctuate considerably as exchange rates change. Of course, the difficulty of calculating total meeting costs is that each of us has different habits, comes from different locations, has different travel perferences, etc. IAOC claims that they try to approximate that number and consider it. I think they often get it wrong but acknowledge that it is probably impossible to get it right. So I'm opposed to a USD 200 (or any other number) firm limit on hotel rates. At the same time, I continue to wish that the IAOC would be more open with the community about how these decisions are made and, in particular, how the tradeoffs between sponsorship (and hence lower costs to the IETF for meeting infrastructure and arrangements) and meetings costs to attendees are made... open enough that the community could give substantive guidance on the subject, guidance that I assume the IAOC would follow if it were coherent and plausible. Being a little cynical, I do wonder if we would see a difference in meeting selection patterns if all IASA staff and IAOC members were required to stay in hotel or other rooms costing no more than, say, your USD 200 per night figure (including transport, if necessary, to and from the meeting site). It might help to calibrate the pain level. The idea is not realistic for a number of reasons, but might make an interesting thought-experiment. john ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Aug 23, 2011, at 9:43 AM, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote: From: Michael StJohns Could you refresh my memory as to which hotels we stayed at had this policy? I literally cannot remember having any hotel cancellation policy with more than a single night fee ever. Maastricht had particularly fierce cancellation rules. I don't remember the details, but under some circumstances you could have to pay for the entire stay. One would think that when the IETF negotiates the room block/fees, that this could be done as well. After all we are in many cases, booking a significant portion of the hotel in question in addition to its conference facilities. --Tom Dale ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Aug 23, 2011, at 10:24 AM, John C Klensin wrote: --On Tuesday, August 23, 2011 07:57 -0400 Thomas Nadeau tnad...@lucidvision.com wrote: I obviously don't have all of the information available to me that you and the IAOC do, but it seems to be there is always another alternative. If there are no local ones, that alternative is usually described as just say no and go elsewhere. What I'm trying to understand, mostly for the future and with the understanding that it is presumably much too late for Taipei and the several following meetings, is whether you would ever consider that an option for a meeting for which you have a sponsor if you hold it in a particular place or if you and the IAOC really believe there is no alternative under those circumstances. I think we need to adopt a simple rule of thumb whereby we do not book venues where room rates of less than $200 USD are unavailable - sponsor or otherwise. Tom, I'm usually not the one to leap to the defense of the IAOC on meeting costs, but I think we need to be very careful about such rules. For many of us, total cost of meeting -- total hotel room costs (which may be different from quoted rate), air fares and other transport, days away from home, meals, registration fee (for this meeting, I notice what I think is is a new incentive to register at the last minute prior to the early cutoff), even the cost of beer for those who depend on it to lubricate conversations -- is far more important than the hotel bill alone. In many cities, rooms quoted at USD 200 (or much less) are easy to find, but one can make up for it in taxi charges or Internet access surcharges. Others may have different constraints -- I've worked with companies for whom transport to a meeting comes out of different accounts than being there and therefore counts either more or less. And hotel (and other on-site) costs can fluctuate considerably as exchange rates change. Of course, the difficulty of calculating total meeting costs is that each of us has different habits, comes from different locations, has different travel perferences, etc. IAOC claims that they try to approximate that number and consider it. I think they often get it wrong but acknowledge that it is probably impossible to get it right. I agree that the overall cost of each meeting is what really counts. HOWEVER, most of us work at companies which have rules for limits on specific charges (i.e.: hotel room rates). Having room rates (fees/taxes/etc...) that exceed about $200 usually gets people in trouble with their travel departments, not to mention the overall cost of the meeting. I think this was discussed at the last Plenary where typical meeting venues in Asia were having very significantly higher costs associated with meeting venues/hotels. So I'm opposed to a USD 200 (or any other number) firm limit on hotel rates. At the same time, I continue to wish that the IAOC would be more open with the community about how these decisions are made and, in particular, how the tradeoffs between sponsorship (and hence lower costs to the IETF for meeting infrastructure and arrangements) and meetings costs to attendees are made... open enough that the community could give substantive guidance on the subject, guidance that I assume the IAOC would follow if it were coherent and plausible. I am not advocating for any hard limit. I said about $200. I think most people would agree that $210 or even $230 would be acceptable, whereas $300 is getting a bit silly. Being a little cynical, I do wonder if we would see a difference in meeting selection patterns if all IASA staff and IAOC members were required to stay in hotel or other rooms costing no more than, say, your USD 200 per night figure (including transport, if necessary, to and from the meeting site). It might help to calibrate the pain level. The idea is not realistic for a number of reasons, but might make an interesting thought-experiment. Indeed. Budget is budget. --Tom john ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
From: Thomas Nadeau One would think that when the IETF negotiates the room block/fees, that this could be done as well. After all we are in many cases, booking a significant portion of the hotel in question in addition to its conference facilities. Speaking as someone who has never arranged a convention... There must be some difficulty given the IETF's use of sponsors. E.g., for the Maastricht meeting, we were sponsored by SIDN, a Netherlands company. This automatically restricted us to a fairly small number of venues, which is going to make it harder to get good terms when negotiating. In regard to cancellations, the situation is inherently poor -- if the bulk of the hotel's business (or the profitable part of it) is due to conventions, a freed-up room may not be easily resellable, as there is unlikely to be another convention in the same facility at the same time. At root is that we are trying to negotiate a purchase at a discounted price without committing to buying any particular number of rooms, versus only a limited number of possible sellers. Dale ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
You said: At root is that we are trying to negotiate a purchase at a discounted price without committing to buying any particular number of rooms, versus only a limited number of possible sellers. When negotiating a group rate we actually ARE committing to buying a certain number of rooms (the room block). There are certainly pros and cons with group rates. On the pro side: guaranteed rate (but not necessarily the absolute lowest available at any time), included benefits (breakfast, Internet, if applicable), free or subsidized meeting rooms where applicable. On the cons side is of course the cancellation policy (not that it has to be as onerous as this one). Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
But surely based on that block purchasing power we could negotiate more reasonable rates than $200+ night? --Tom On Aug 23, 2011, at 2:07 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: You said: At root is that we are trying to negotiate a purchase at a discounted price without committing to buying any particular number of rooms, versus only a limited number of possible sellers. When negotiating a group rate we actually ARE committing to buying a certain number of rooms (the room block). There are certainly pros and cons with group rates. On the pro side: guaranteed rate (but not necessarily the absolute lowest available at any time), included benefits (breakfast, Internet, if applicable), free or subsidized meeting rooms where applicable. On the cons side is of course the cancellation policy (not that it has to be as onerous as this one). Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
Probably not for that hotel in that location in the current economic climate etc. I wasn't the negotiator :-) Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, Thomas Nadeau wrote: But surely based on that block purchasing power we could negotiate more reasonable rates than $200+ night? --Tom ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
Reasonable has to be measured on the basis of what the venue might expect for alternative customers at the time of negotiation, not our world view of hotels at the time of meetings. For this to be a meaningful disccusion re. the success or lack there of, we need to compare what we have vs. similar sized groups in the same season, etc. at the same venue. It is a separate discussion re. whether the overall cost or distribution of categories of costs is optimum for the group. Dave Morris On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, Thomas Nadeau wrote: But surely based on that block purchasing power we could negotiate more reasonable rates than $200+ night? --Tom On Aug 23, 2011, at 2:07 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: You said: At root is that we are trying to negotiate a purchase at a discounted price without committing to buying any particular number of rooms, versus only a limited number of possible sellers. When negotiating a group rate we actually ARE committing to buying a certain number of rooms (the room block). There are certainly pros and cons with group rates. On the pro side: guaranteed rate (but not necessarily the absolute lowest available at any time), included benefits (breakfast, Internet, if applicable), free or subsidized meeting rooms where applicable. On the cons side is of course the cancellation policy (not that it has to be as onerous as this one). Ole ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 11:29:34AM -0700, David Morris wrote: For this to be a meaningful disccusion re. the success or lack there of, we need to compare what we have vs. similar sized groups in the same season, etc. at the same venue. _And_ having negotiated at the same time, as Ray pointed out already in this thread. Every time one of these discussions comes up, people seem to forget that the negotiations are happening several years in advance of the actual event. Agreements about the future almost always require the party buying to take some risk that they will be paying more than the going rate at the time the actual sale date arrives. In the case of hotel agreements, the block negotiator takes some risk that there will be a lower price or otherwise better terms actually available at the time of the block being used. The hotel takes some risk that the block negotiator is unable to deliver the actual room occupancy negotiated. Each is making a bet. If you don't like the cancellation terms (or other terms of the bet), don't participate in it: don't make a reservation in the IETF block. A -- Andrew Sullivan a...@anvilwalrusden.com ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
From: Ole Jacobsen [o...@cisco.com] When negotiating a group rate we actually ARE committing to buying a certain number of rooms (the room block). Are we really committing? Yes, the IETF block in the primary hotel fills in my experience, but if it doesn't, is the IETF committing to paying the difference? And of course, there are cancels after the cutoff, which reduce the number of rooms sold in the block (unless the IETF is picking up the tab for those, too). Dale ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Aug 23, 2011, at 11:23 AM, Thomas Nadeau wrote: But surely based on that block purchasing power we could negotiate more reasonable rates than $200+ night? Well, the Cisco corporate rate at the Hyatt is also $265/night. Given that the hotel is around the corner from the Cisco office, we have some traffic there. I wouldn't discount the effect of the value of the dollar on hotel rates as measured in US dollars. --Tom On Aug 23, 2011, at 2:07 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: You said: At root is that we are trying to negotiate a purchase at a discounted price without committing to buying any particular number of rooms, versus only a limited number of possible sellers. When negotiating a group rate we actually ARE committing to buying a certain number of rooms (the room block). There are certainly pros and cons with group rates. On the pro side: guaranteed rate (but not necessarily the absolute lowest available at any time), included benefits (breakfast, Internet, if applicable), free or subsidized meeting rooms where applicable. On the cons side is of course the cancellation policy (not that it has to be as onerous as this one). Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On Aug 23, 2011, at 1:37 PM, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote: Are we really committing? Yes, the IETF block in the primary hotel fills in my experience, but if it doesn't, is the IETF committing to paying the difference? yes. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
Most hotel contracts I've signed have a clause called Attrition which calls for payment if the rooms actually taken fall below some percentage of the room block, like below 90% or the like. Thanks, Donald = Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e...@gmail.com On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 5:12 PM, Fred Baker f...@cisco.com wrote: On Aug 23, 2011, at 1:37 PM, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote: Are we really committing? Yes, the IETF block in the primary hotel fills in my experience, but if it doesn't, is the IETF committing to paying the difference? yes. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
Exactly. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, Donald Eastlake wrote: Most hotel contracts I've signed have a clause called Attrition which calls for payment if the rooms actually taken fall below some percentage of the room block, like below 90% or the like. Thanks, Donald = Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e...@gmail.com On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 5:12 PM, Fred Baker f...@cisco.com wrote: On Aug 23, 2011, at 1:37 PM, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote: Are we really committing? Yes, the IETF block in the primary hotel fills in my experience, but if it doesn't, is the IETF committing to paying the difference? yes. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On 8/23/11 3:09 PM, Fred Baker f...@cisco.com wrote: I wouldn't discount the effect of the value of the dollar on hotel rates as measured in US dollars. I suspect Fred is spot on -- current exchange rate fluctuation is undoubtedly a huge issue. I would speculate that most hotels would negotiate for payment in their local currency and that since the time of that agreement the US dollar has depreciated against most currencies (blame 'quantitative easing' I suppose). Jason ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On 8/23/11 4:34 PM, Livingood, Jason wrote: On 8/23/11 3:09 PM, Fred Baker f...@cisco.com wrote: I wouldn't discount the effect of the value of the dollar on hotel rates as measured in US dollars. I suspect Fred is spot on -- current exchange rate fluctuation is undoubtedly a huge issue. I would speculate that most hotels would negotiate for payment in their local currency and that since the time of that agreement the US dollar has depreciated against most currencies (blame 'quantitative easing' I suppose). Come on, folks, let's be honest: all-in-one conference hotels, and hotels connected to conference centers, charge exorbitant amounts of money for the convenience of sleeping in close proximity to the meeting rooms. Thanks to tips from other cost-conscious IETFers, I was able to find hotels costing $100 (IETF 81) and $170 (IETF 82) a night cheaper than the official venue. Sure, I have to walk for five minutes to get back and forth to the meeting rooms, but that seems like a small price to pay. If you don't like the recommended hotels, vote with your feet. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
On 8/23/2011 10:13 PM, Thomas Nadeau wrote: ... I agree that the overall cost of each meeting is what really counts. HOWEVER, most of us work at companies which have rules for limits on specific charges (i.e.: hotel room rates). Having room rates (fees/taxes/etc...) that exceed about $200 usually gets people in trouble with their travel departments, not to mention the overall cost of the meeting. I think this was discussed at the last Plenary where typical meeting venues in Asia were having very significantly higher costs associated with meeting venues/hotels. This suggests that perhaps we should look a bit more a _untypical_ venues. As I attempted (apparently with little success) to point out on this list, once you expand your scope outside of NE Asia (by which I mean Japan, South Korea and the easy targets in China (Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong, etc.), a whole new world opens up... ... ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Hyatt Taipei cancellation policy?
IAOC members are like all other IETF members. We pay for our hotel rooms. That means when I have a full-time job that wants me at the IETF, I stay at the convention hotel. When I don't have a full-time sponsor, like now, I stayed at: o A charming bed breakfast 500m from the Maastricht convention center. The entire week was the price of one night at the NH. In 2010 US Dollars, about USD 215. In 2011 US Dollars, about USD 260. Then again, that was per week, not per night. o A Hilton in Beijing. That was free for me, as I had tons of HHonors points. Taxi ~ USD 6/day. o The Hilton in Prague. Score! More HHonors points. Before anyone cries foul, I am NOT on the IAOC venue selection committee, so no, I had no influence on picking a Hilton. o A tourist hotel 2.5km from the Quebec convention center. That hotel was CDN 140/night less expensive than the Hilton. CDN 20/day, including tip, if you took a taxi by yourself. Much cheaper if you took mass transit. Yes, now I am low on Hilton points. In Beijing and Quebec I moved to the conference hotel mid-week because I had a sponsor for half the week. Your mileage may vary. On Aug 23, 2011, at 10:24 AM, John C Klensin wrote: Being a little cynical, I do wonder if we would see a difference in meeting selection patterns if all IASA staff and IAOC members were required to stay in hotel or other rooms costing no more than, say, your USD 200 per night figure (including transport, if necessary, to and from the meeting site). It might help to calibrate the pain level. The idea is not realistic for a number of reasons, but might make an interesting thought-experiment. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
