Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Neil Kazaross]

@ Mark P. I modelled the typical 20 x 140 Mark D special to have one look
being 25 x 56 and the other 20 x 70 ft. It seemed OK until I realized I
wasn't able to get good F/B on the low end. You could likely get by with a
small difference.

73 KAZ

On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 4:34 PM Mark Durenberger 
wrote:

> Okay; thanks Kaz, I get it.  I'm now going to my happy place to think
> about a world without copper :-))
>
>
> Cheers!
>
> Mark Durenberger
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IRCA  On Behalf Of Neil Kazaross
> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 3:07 PM
> To: irca@hard-core-dx.com
> Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>
> Keeping the same aspect ratio would mean also making that delta longer
> which would mean it is even bigger, thereby further widening the beam per
> work previously done here. 73 KAZ
>
> On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 3:02 PM Mark Durenberger 
> wrote:
>
> > Okay; maybe that's all we need to ask then.  No; I wasn't presented
> > with any more than the usual goofball things as we all see from time to
> time.
> > My curiosity was based on how some transmitting systems work.
> >
> >
> >
> > Howsomeever...what if you kept the same aspect ratio on the delta on
> > which you're increasing the apex?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> >
> >
> > Mark Durenberger
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IRCA  On Behalf Of Neil Kazaross
> > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 1:33 PM
> > To: irca@hard-core-dx.com
> > Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
> >
> >
> >
> > OK Mark, let me understand what you're asking. You want me to adjust
> > the height of the support mast closest to the nulling resistance? This
> > will result in loops that aren't the same size, and based upon
> > previous work, while good nulls can still be had, the effect of having
> > one of the two loops in series with a smaller one, will be a somewhat
> wider beamwidth.
> >
> >
> >
> > In your experiments, you may have found some magic very deep nulls at
> > some frequencies, but I'll bet that at some others the nulls were
> > worse. I'll also bet that DXers in other locations might not get the
> > same results you got.
> >
> >
> >
> > In practice while nulls deeper than 30 dB are nice, and you hope that
> > a well built DKAZ away from reflecting structures would have quite a
> > few in the daytime, it isn't very likely that someone else at a
> > different QTH could get the exact results you got.
> >
> >
> >
> > 73 KAZ
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 11:23 AM Mark Durenberger <  > ma...@durenberger.com> ma...@durenberger.com>
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > KAZ:  Included in my voluminous measurements this summer was a set
> > > of
> >
> > > data taken with various height-extensions of the null-side support
> >
> > > pole.  I got this idea from the way some AM Directional-Antenna
> >
> > > systems are designed with un-equal tower heights.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Can you run a few EZNECs assuming a front pole height of 22 feet
> > > with
> >
> > > a few different “back”-pole heights?  We may discover that
> >
> > > identical-apex is the best solution.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > On the other hand…
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Cheers!
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Mark Durenberger
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> >
> > > From: IRCA < <mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com>
> > irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com> On Behalf Of Neil Kazaross
> >
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 2:03 PM
> >
> > > To:  <mailto:irca@hard-core-dx.com> irca@hard-core-dx.com
> >
> > > Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > The Double Loop genre of antennas models to have better back end
> >
> > > nulling performance at relevant higher angles (ie rather s

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Mark Durenberger]

Okay; thanks Kaz, I get it.  I'm now going to my happy place to think about a 
world without copper :-))


Cheers!

Mark Durenberger

-Original Message-
From: IRCA  On Behalf Of Neil Kazaross
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 3:07 PM
To: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

Keeping the same aspect ratio would mean also making that delta longer which 
would mean it is even bigger, thereby further widening the beam per work 
previously done here. 73 KAZ

On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 3:02 PM Mark Durenberger 
wrote:

> Okay; maybe that's all we need to ask then.  No; I wasn't presented 
> with any more than the usual goofball things as we all see from time to time.
> My curiosity was based on how some transmitting systems work.
>
>
>
> Howsomeever...what if you kept the same aspect ratio on the delta on 
> which you're increasing the apex?
>
>
>
>
>
> Cheers!
>
>
>
> Mark Durenberger
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IRCA  On Behalf Of Neil Kazaross
> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 1:33 PM
> To: irca@hard-core-dx.com
> Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>
>
>
> OK Mark, let me understand what you're asking. You want me to adjust 
> the height of the support mast closest to the nulling resistance? This 
> will result in loops that aren't the same size, and based upon 
> previous work, while good nulls can still be had, the effect of having 
> one of the two loops in series with a smaller one, will be a somewhat wider 
> beamwidth.
>
>
>
> In your experiments, you may have found some magic very deep nulls at 
> some frequencies, but I'll bet that at some others the nulls were 
> worse. I'll also bet that DXers in other locations might not get the 
> same results you got.
>
>
>
> In practice while nulls deeper than 30 dB are nice, and you hope that 
> a well built DKAZ away from reflecting structures would have quite a 
> few in the daytime, it isn't very likely that someone else at a 
> different QTH could get the exact results you got.
>
>
>
> 73 KAZ
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 11:23 AM Mark Durenberger <  ma...@durenberger.com> ma...@durenberger.com>
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > KAZ:  Included in my voluminous measurements this summer was a set 
> > of
>
> > data taken with various height-extensions of the null-side support
>
> > pole.  I got this idea from the way some AM Directional-Antenna
>
> > systems are designed with un-equal tower heights.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Can you run a few EZNECs assuming a front pole height of 22 feet 
> > with
>
> > a few different “back”-pole heights?  We may discover that
>
> > identical-apex is the best solution.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > On the other hand…
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Cheers!
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Mark Durenberger
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > -Original Message-
>
> > From: IRCA < <mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com>
> irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com> On Behalf Of Neil Kazaross
>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 2:03 PM
>
> > To:  <mailto:irca@hard-core-dx.com> irca@hard-core-dx.com
>
> > Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The Double Loop genre of antennas models to have better back end
>
> > nulling performance at relevant higher angles (ie rather short skip)
>
> > than do the single loops. This is because a double loop is nearly
>
> > electrically the same as an end fire array of two single loops.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 73 KAZ
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:27 PM Mark Pettifor < 
> >  <mailto:m...@spacetubes.com> m...@spacetubes.com>   m...@spacetubes.com> m...@spacetubes.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > Well here's something that's been on my mind lately, regarding
>
> >
>
> > > differences between superloops and the DKAZ:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > It seems to be my experience so far that at night, the back and 
> > > side
>
> >
>
> > > nulling characteristics of these antennas changes, due to sky wave vs..
>
> >
>
> > > ground wave, yes? Which one is more affected by those changes?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Mark
>
> >
>

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Mark Pettifor]

A slightly different question crossed my mind the same time Mark asked 
his:


What if you changed the apex on the one end and kept the area of the 
loop the same? Raise the apex and shorten the bottom part of the delta, 
or lower the apex and lengthen the bottom part of the delta, so that the 
length of wire used (and therefore the area of the loop) is the same?


Mark Pettifor

On 2018-10-26 4:07 pm, Neil Kazaross wrote:

Keeping the same aspect ratio would mean also making that delta longer
which would mean it is even bigger, thereby further widening the beam 
per

work previously done here. 73 KAZ

On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 3:02 PM Mark Durenberger 


wrote:

Okay; maybe that's all we need to ask then.  No; I wasn't presented 
with
any more than the usual goofball things as we all see from time to 
time.

My curiosity was based on how some transmitting systems work.



Howsomeever...what if you kept the same aspect ratio on the delta on 
which

you're increasing the apex?





Cheers!



Mark Durenberger





-Original Message-
From: IRCA  On Behalf Of Neil Kazaross
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 1:33 PM
To: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag



OK Mark, let me understand what you're asking. You want me to adjust 
the
height of the support mast closest to the nulling resistance? This 
will
result in loops that aren't the same size, and based upon previous 
work,

while good nulls can still be had, the effect of having one of the two
loops in series with a smaller one, will be a somewhat wider 
beamwidth.




In your experiments, you may have found some magic very deep nulls at 
some
frequencies, but I'll bet that at some others the nulls were worse. 
I'll
also bet that DXers in other locations might not get the same results 
you

got.



In practice while nulls deeper than 30 dB are nice, and you hope that 
a
well built DKAZ away from reflecting structures would have quite a few 
in

the daytime, it isn't very likely that someone else at a different QTH
could get the exact results you got.



73 KAZ



On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 11:23 AM Mark Durenberger <  ma...@durenberger.com>

wrote:



> KAZ:  Included in my voluminous measurements this summer was a set of

> data taken with various height-extensions of the null-side support

> pole.  I got this idea from the way some AM Directional-Antenna

> systems are designed with un-equal tower heights.

>

>

>

> Can you run a few EZNECs assuming a front pole height of 22 feet with

> a few different “back”-pole heights?  We may discover that

> identical-apex is the best solution.

>

>

>

> On the other hand…

>

>

>

>

>

> Cheers!

>

>

>

> Mark Durenberger

>

>

>

>

>

> -Original Message-

> From: IRCA < <mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com>
irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com> On Behalf Of Neil Kazaross

> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 2:03 PM

> To:  <mailto:irca@hard-core-dx.com> irca@hard-core-dx.com

> Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

>

>

>

> The Double Loop genre of antennas models to have better back end

> nulling performance at relevant higher angles (ie rather short skip)

> than do the single loops. This is because a double loop is nearly

> electrically the same as an end fire array of two single loops.

>

>

>

> 73 KAZ

>

>

>

> On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:27 PM Mark Pettifor <   <mailto:m...@spacetubes.com> m...@spacetubes.com>   m...@spacetubes.com> wrote:

>

>

>

> > Well here's something that's been on my mind lately, regarding

>

> > differences between superloops and the DKAZ:

>

> >

>

> > It seems to be my experience so far that at night, the back and side

>

> > nulling characteristics of these antennas changes, due to sky wave vs..

>

> > ground wave, yes? Which one is more affected by those changes?

>

> >

>

> > Mark

>

> > Goshen, IN

>

> >

>

> > On 2018-10-24 1:42 pm, Chuck Hutton wrote:

>

> > > Mark -

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > No arrogance detected here.

>

> > >

>

> > > Now back to the issue of DKAZ low band performance...…

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Chuck

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > 

>

> > > From: IRCA < < <mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com> mailto:
irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com>

>  <mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com> irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com>
on behalf of Mark

>

> > > Pettifor < < <mailto:m...@spacetubes.com> mailto:m...@spacetubes.com>
<mailto:m...@spacetubes.com> 

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Neil Kazaross]

Keeping the same aspect ratio would mean also making that delta longer
which would mean it is even bigger, thereby further widening the beam per
work previously done here. 73 KAZ

On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 3:02 PM Mark Durenberger 
wrote:

> Okay; maybe that's all we need to ask then.  No; I wasn't presented with
> any more than the usual goofball things as we all see from time to time.
> My curiosity was based on how some transmitting systems work.
>
>
>
> Howsomeever...what if you kept the same aspect ratio on the delta on which
> you're increasing the apex?
>
>
>
>
>
> Cheers!
>
>
>
> Mark Durenberger
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IRCA  On Behalf Of Neil Kazaross
> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 1:33 PM
> To: irca@hard-core-dx.com
> Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>
>
>
> OK Mark, let me understand what you're asking. You want me to adjust the
> height of the support mast closest to the nulling resistance? This will
> result in loops that aren't the same size, and based upon previous work,
> while good nulls can still be had, the effect of having one of the two
> loops in series with a smaller one, will be a somewhat wider beamwidth.
>
>
>
> In your experiments, you may have found some magic very deep nulls at some
> frequencies, but I'll bet that at some others the nulls were worse. I'll
> also bet that DXers in other locations might not get the same results you
> got.
>
>
>
> In practice while nulls deeper than 30 dB are nice, and you hope that a
> well built DKAZ away from reflecting structures would have quite a few in
> the daytime, it isn't very likely that someone else at a different QTH
> could get the exact results you got.
>
>
>
> 73 KAZ
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 11:23 AM Mark Durenberger <  ma...@durenberger.com> ma...@durenberger.com>
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > KAZ:  Included in my voluminous measurements this summer was a set of
>
> > data taken with various height-extensions of the null-side support
>
> > pole.  I got this idea from the way some AM Directional-Antenna
>
> > systems are designed with un-equal tower heights.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Can you run a few EZNECs assuming a front pole height of 22 feet with
>
> > a few different “back”-pole heights?  We may discover that
>
> > identical-apex is the best solution.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > On the other hand…
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Cheers!
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Mark Durenberger
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > -Original Message-
>
> > From: IRCA < <mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com>
> irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com> On Behalf Of Neil Kazaross
>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 2:03 PM
>
> > To:  <mailto:irca@hard-core-dx.com> irca@hard-core-dx.com
>
> > Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The Double Loop genre of antennas models to have better back end
>
> > nulling performance at relevant higher angles (ie rather short skip)
>
> > than do the single loops. This is because a double loop is nearly
>
> > electrically the same as an end fire array of two single loops.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 73 KAZ
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:27 PM Mark Pettifor < 
> >  <mailto:m...@spacetubes.com> m...@spacetubes.com>   m...@spacetubes.com> m...@spacetubes.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > Well here's something that's been on my mind lately, regarding
>
> >
>
> > > differences between superloops and the DKAZ:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > It seems to be my experience so far that at night, the back and side
>
> >
>
> > > nulling characteristics of these antennas changes, due to sky wave vs..
>
> >
>
> > > ground wave, yes? Which one is more affected by those changes?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Mark
>
> >
>
> > > Goshen, IN
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > On 2018-10-24 1:42 pm, Chuck Hutton wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > > Mark -
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > > > No arrogance detected here.
>
> >
>
> > > >
&g

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Mark Durenberger]

Okay; maybe that's all we need to ask then.  No; I wasn't presented with any 
more than the usual goofball things as we all see from time to time.  My 
curiosity was based on how some transmitting systems work.

 

Howsomeever...what if you kept the same aspect ratio on the delta on which 
you're increasing the apex?

 

 

Cheers!

 

Mark Durenberger

 

 

-Original Message-
From: IRCA  On Behalf Of Neil Kazaross
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 1:33 PM
To: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

 

OK Mark, let me understand what you're asking. You want me to adjust the height 
of the support mast closest to the nulling resistance? This will result in 
loops that aren't the same size, and based upon previous work, while good nulls 
can still be had, the effect of having one of the two loops in series with a 
smaller one, will be a somewhat wider beamwidth.

 

In your experiments, you may have found some magic very deep nulls at some 
frequencies, but I'll bet that at some others the nulls were worse. I'll also 
bet that DXers in other locations might not get the same results you got.

 

In practice while nulls deeper than 30 dB are nice, and you hope that a well 
built DKAZ away from reflecting structures would have quite a few in the 
daytime, it isn't very likely that someone else at a different QTH could get 
the exact results you got.

 

73 KAZ

 

On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 11:23 AM Mark Durenberger < 
<mailto:ma...@durenberger.com> ma...@durenberger.com>

wrote:

 

> KAZ:  Included in my voluminous measurements this summer was a set of 

> data taken with various height-extensions of the null-side support 

> pole.  I got this idea from the way some AM Directional-Antenna 

> systems are designed with un-equal tower heights.

> 

> 

> 

> Can you run a few EZNECs assuming a front pole height of 22 feet with 

> a few different “back”-pole heights?  We may discover that 

> identical-apex is the best solution.

> 

> 

> 

> On the other hand…

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Cheers!

> 

> 

> 

> Mark Durenberger

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> -Original Message-

> From: IRCA < <mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com> 
> irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com> On Behalf Of Neil Kazaross

> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 2:03 PM

> To:  <mailto:irca@hard-core-dx.com> irca@hard-core-dx.com

> Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

> 

> 

> 

> The Double Loop genre of antennas models to have better back end 

> nulling performance at relevant higher angles (ie rather short skip) 

> than do the single loops. This is because a double loop is nearly 

> electrically the same as an end fire array of two single loops.

> 

> 

> 

> 73 KAZ

> 

> 

> 

> On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:27 PM Mark Pettifor <   <mailto:m...@spacetubes.com> m...@spacetubes.com>  
> <mailto:m...@spacetubes.com> m...@spacetubes.com> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> > Well here's something that's been on my mind lately, regarding

> 

> > differences between superloops and the DKAZ:

> 

> >

> 

> > It seems to be my experience so far that at night, the back and side

> 

> > nulling characteristics of these antennas changes, due to sky wave vs.

> 

> > ground wave, yes? Which one is more affected by those changes?

> 

> >

> 

> > Mark

> 

> > Goshen, IN

> 

> >

> 

> > On 2018-10-24 1:42 pm, Chuck Hutton wrote:

> 

> > > Mark -

> 

> > >

> 

> > >

> 

> > > No arrogance detected here.

> 

> > >

> 

> > > Now back to the issue of DKAZ low band performance...…

> 

> > >

> 

> > >

> 

> > > Chuck

> 

> > >

> 

> > >

> 

> > > 

> 

> > > From: IRCA < < <mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com> 
> > > mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com>

>  <mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com> irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com> on 
> behalf of Mark

> 

> > > Pettifor < < <mailto:m...@spacetubes.com> mailto:m...@spacetubes.com>  
> > > <mailto:m...@spacetubes.com> m...@spacetubes.com>

> 

> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 8:58 AM

> 

> > > To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America

> 

> > > Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

> 

> > >

> 

> > >

> 

> > > Apologies, Chuck, and to the rest here. In

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Neil Kazaross]

A quick EZNEC look at varying the height of the mast near Rt, so as to have
unequal mast heights doesn't help the antenna and makes the beamwidth
slightly wider.  73 KAZ

On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 1:32 PM Neil Kazaross  wrote:

> OK Mark, let me understand what you're asking. You want me to adjust the
> height of the support mast closest to the nulling resistance? This will
> result in loops that aren't the same size, and based upon previous work,
> while good nulls can still be had, the effect of having one of the two
> loops in series with a smaller one, will be a somewhat wider beamwidth.
>
> In your experiments, you may have found some magic very deep nulls at some
> frequencies, but I'll bet that at some others the nulls were worse. I'll
> also bet that DXers in other locations might not get the same results you
> got.
>
> In practice while nulls deeper than 30 dB are nice, and you hope that a
> well built DKAZ away from reflecting structures would have quite a few in
> the daytime, it isn't very likely that someone else at a different QTH
> could get the exact results you got.
>
> 73 KAZ
>
> On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 11:23 AM Mark Durenberger 
> wrote:
>
>> KAZ:  Included in my voluminous measurements this summer was a set of
>> data taken with various height-extensions of the null-side support pole.  I
>> got this idea from the way some AM Directional-Antenna systems are designed
>> with un-equal tower heights.
>>
>>
>>
>> Can you run a few EZNECs assuming a front pole height of 22 feet with a
>> few different “back”-pole heights?  We may discover that identical-apex is
>> the best solution.
>>
>>
>>
>> On the other hand…
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark Durenberger
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IRCA  On Behalf Of Neil Kazaross
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 2:03 PM
>> To: irca@hard-core-dx.com
>> Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>>
>>
>>
>> The Double Loop genre of antennas models to have better back end nulling
>> performance at relevant higher angles (ie rather short skip) than do the
>> single loops. This is because a double loop is nearly electrically the same
>> as an end fire array of two single loops.
>>
>>
>>
>> 73 KAZ
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:27 PM Mark Pettifor < > m...@spacetubes.com> m...@spacetubes.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Well here's something that's been on my mind lately, regarding
>>
>> > differences between superloops and the DKAZ:
>>
>> >
>>
>> > It seems to be my experience so far that at night, the back and side
>>
>> > nulling characteristics of these antennas changes, due to sky wave vs.
>>
>> > ground wave, yes? Which one is more affected by those changes?
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Mark
>>
>> > Goshen, IN
>>
>> >
>>
>> > On 2018-10-24 1:42 pm, Chuck Hutton wrote:
>>
>> > > Mark -
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > No arrogance detected here.
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > Now back to the issue of DKAZ low band performance...…
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > Chuck
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > 
>>
>> > > From: IRCA < <mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com>
>> irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com> on behalf of Mark
>>
>> > > Pettifor < <mailto:m...@spacetubes.com> m...@spacetubes.com>
>>
>> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 8:58 AM
>>
>> > > To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
>>
>> > > Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > Apologies, Chuck, and to the rest here. In looking back at my post,
>>
>> > > I realize I could have said things a lot less arrogantly and
>> put-offish.
>>
>> > > That's how I sounded to myself anyway after re-reading what I posted..
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > 73,
>>
>> > > Mark
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > On 2018-10-24 1:57 am, Chuck Hutton wrote:
>>
>> > >> Mark -
>>
>> > >>
>>
>> > >>
>>
>> > >> I suppose we all a

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Neil Kazaross]

OK Mark, let me understand what you're asking. You want me to adjust the
height of the support mast closest to the nulling resistance? This will
result in loops that aren't the same size, and based upon previous work,
while good nulls can still be had, the effect of having one of the two
loops in series with a smaller one, will be a somewhat wider beamwidth.

In your experiments, you may have found some magic very deep nulls at some
frequencies, but I'll bet that at some others the nulls were worse. I'll
also bet that DXers in other locations might not get the same results you
got.

In practice while nulls deeper than 30 dB are nice, and you hope that a
well built DKAZ away from reflecting structures would have quite a few in
the daytime, it isn't very likely that someone else at a different QTH
could get the exact results you got.

73 KAZ

On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 11:23 AM Mark Durenberger 
wrote:

> KAZ:  Included in my voluminous measurements this summer was a set of data
> taken with various height-extensions of the null-side support pole.  I got
> this idea from the way some AM Directional-Antenna systems are designed
> with un-equal tower heights.
>
>
>
> Can you run a few EZNECs assuming a front pole height of 22 feet with a
> few different “back”-pole heights?  We may discover that identical-apex is
> the best solution.
>
>
>
> On the other hand…
>
>
>
>
>
> Cheers!
>
>
>
> Mark Durenberger
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IRCA  On Behalf Of Neil Kazaross
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 2:03 PM
> To: irca@hard-core-dx.com
> Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>
>
>
> The Double Loop genre of antennas models to have better back end nulling
> performance at relevant higher angles (ie rather short skip) than do the
> single loops. This is because a double loop is nearly electrically the same
> as an end fire array of two single loops.
>
>
>
> 73 KAZ
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:27 PM Mark Pettifor <  m...@spacetubes.com> m...@spacetubes.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Well here's something that's been on my mind lately, regarding
>
> > differences between superloops and the DKAZ:
>
> >
>
> > It seems to be my experience so far that at night, the back and side
>
> > nulling characteristics of these antennas changes, due to sky wave vs.
>
> > ground wave, yes? Which one is more affected by those changes?
>
> >
>
> > Mark
>
> > Goshen, IN
>
> >
>
> > On 2018-10-24 1:42 pm, Chuck Hutton wrote:
>
> > > Mark -
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > No arrogance detected here.
>
> > >
>
> > > Now back to the issue of DKAZ low band performance...…
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > Chuck
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > 
>
> > > From: IRCA < <mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com>
> irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com> on behalf of Mark
>
> > > Pettifor < <mailto:m...@spacetubes.com> m...@spacetubes.com>
>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 8:58 AM
>
> > > To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
>
> > > Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > Apologies, Chuck, and to the rest here. In looking back at my post,
>
> > > I realize I could have said things a lot less arrogantly and
> put-offish.
>
> > > That's how I sounded to myself anyway after re-reading what I posted.
>
> > >
>
> > > 73,
>
> > > Mark
>
> > >
>
> > > On 2018-10-24 1:57 am, Chuck Hutton wrote:
>
> > >> Mark -
>
> > >>
>
> > >>
>
> > >> I suppose we all agree that the DKAZ has nailed some great catches.
>
> > >>
>
> > >> My goal was to point out a shortcoming, not to say that it can't
>
> > >> hear DX a la Colombia / Venezuela / Nicaragua.
>
> > >>
>
> > >>
>
> > >> Chuck
>
> > >>
>
> > >>
>
> > >> 
>
> > >>
>
> > > ___
>
> > > IRCA mailing list
>
> > >  <mailto:IRCA@hard-core-dx.com> IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
>
> > >  <http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca>
> http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
>
> > > IRCA Info Page -
>
> > > Kotalampi< <http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/lis

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Mark Durenberger]

KAZ:  Included in my voluminous measurements this summer was a set of data 
taken with various height-extensions of the null-side support pole.  I got this 
idea from the way some AM Directional-Antenna systems are designed with 
un-equal tower heights.

 

Can you run a few EZNECs assuming a front pole height of 22 feet with a few 
different “back”-pole heights?  We may discover that identical-apex is the best 
solution.  

 

On the other hand…

 

 

Cheers!

 

Mark Durenberger

 

 

-Original Message-
From: IRCA  On Behalf Of Neil Kazaross
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 2:03 PM
To: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

 

The Double Loop genre of antennas models to have better back end nulling 
performance at relevant higher angles (ie rather short skip) than do the single 
loops. This is because a double loop is nearly electrically the same as an end 
fire array of two single loops.

 

73 KAZ

 

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:27 PM Mark Pettifor < <mailto:m...@spacetubes.com> 
m...@spacetubes.com> wrote:

 

> Well here's something that's been on my mind lately, regarding 

> differences between superloops and the DKAZ:

> 

> It seems to be my experience so far that at night, the back and side 

> nulling characteristics of these antennas changes, due to sky wave vs.

> ground wave, yes? Which one is more affected by those changes?

> 

> Mark

> Goshen, IN

> 

> On 2018-10-24 1:42 pm, Chuck Hutton wrote:

> > Mark -

> >

> >

> > No arrogance detected here.

> >

> > Now back to the issue of DKAZ low band performance...…

> >

> >

> > Chuck

> >

> >

> > 

> > From: IRCA < <mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com> 
> > irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com> on behalf of Mark 

> > Pettifor < <mailto:m...@spacetubes.com> m...@spacetubes.com>

> > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 8:58 AM

> > To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America

> > Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

> >

> >

> > Apologies, Chuck, and to the rest here. In looking back at my post, 

> > I realize I could have said things a lot less arrogantly and put-offish.

> > That's how I sounded to myself anyway after re-reading what I posted.

> >

> > 73,

> > Mark

> >

> > On 2018-10-24 1:57 am, Chuck Hutton wrote:

> >> Mark -

> >>

> >>

> >> I suppose we all agree that the DKAZ has nailed some great catches.

> >>

> >> My goal was to point out a shortcoming, not to say that it can't 

> >> hear DX a la Colombia / Venezuela / Nicaragua.

> >>

> >>

> >> Chuck

> >>

> >>

> >> 

> >>

> > ___

> > IRCA mailing list

> >  <mailto:IRCA@hard-core-dx.com> IRCA@hard-core-dx.com

> >  <http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca> 
> > http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

> > IRCA Info Page -

> > Kotalampi< <http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca> 
> > http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca>

> > montreal.kotalampi.com

> > This group is for those interested in AM (Broadcast Band) DXing, 

> > sponsored by the International Radio Club of America (IRCA) To see 

> > the collection of prior postings to the list, visit the IRCA 

> > Archives.(The current archive is only available to the list 

> > members.Using IRCA

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the 

> > original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of 

> > the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers

> >

> > For more information:  <http://www.ircaonline.org> http://www.ircaonline.org

> >

> > To Post a message:  <mailto:irca@hard-core-dx.com> irca@hard-core-dx.com

> >

> > ___

> > IRCA mailing list

> >  <mailto:IRCA@hard-core-dx.com> IRCA@hard-core-dx.com

> >  <http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca> 
> > http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

> >

> > Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the 

> > original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of 

> > the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers

> >

> > For more information:  <http://www.ircaonline.org> http://www.ircaonline.org

> >

> > To Post a message:  

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Neil Kazaross]

I would expect a higher signal level on your S-meter from the superloop. Do
you have a few stations to your west to compare daytimes?  73 KAZ

On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 2:11 PM C B via IRCA  wrote:

>
>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: C B 
> To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America <
> irca@hard-core-dx.com>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 19:11:02 +0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>  Kaz,
> I was surprised at the difference as well. The bottom wire of the KAZ is 2
> ft. off of the ground, the apex is 18 ft. above the bottom wire.
> Craig
> On Thursday, October 25, 2018, 12:03:04 PM MDT, Mark Pettifor <
> m...@spacetubes.com> wrote:
>
>  My thinking on antennas is the same as below: Getting rid of or reducing
> interference and noise is the best way to hear what's left - the signal.
> Because usually when you try to increase the signal, you also increase
> the noise (at least, the noise that's in the same path as the signal),
> yes?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mark Pettifor
>
>
> On 2018-10-25 1:29 pm, Nick Hall-Patch wrote:
>
> ...snip...
>
> > This goes back to what some have been mentioning, that ability to null
> > broadly and in a certain direction is often more important than aiming
> > the antenna at the DX.
> >
> >
> > best wishes,
> >
> > Nick
> >
> ___
> IRCA mailing list
> IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
> http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
>
> Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
> original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the
> IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
>
> For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
>
> To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
>
>
>
>
> -- Forwarded message ------
> From: C B via IRCA 
> To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America <
> irca@hard-core-dx.com>
> Cc: C B 
> Bcc:
> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 19:11:02 + (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
> ___
> IRCA mailing list
> IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
> http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
>
> Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
> original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the
> IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
>
> For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
>
> To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
>
>
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[C B via IRCA]

--- Begin Message ---
 Kaz,
I was surprised at the difference as well. The bottom wire of the KAZ is 2 ft. 
off of the ground, the apex is 18 ft. above the bottom wire.
Craig
On Thursday, October 25, 2018, 12:03:04 PM MDT, Mark Pettifor 
 wrote:  
 
 My thinking on antennas is the same as below: Getting rid of or reducing 
interference and noise is the best way to hear what's left - the signal. 
Because usually when you try to increase the signal, you also increase 
the noise (at least, the noise that's in the same path as the signal), 
yes?

Best regards,

Mark Pettifor


On 2018-10-25 1:29 pm, Nick Hall-Patch wrote:

...snip...

> This goes back to what some have been mentioning, that ability to null
> broadly and in a certain direction is often more important than aiming
> the antenna at the DX.
> 
> 
> best wishes,
> 
> Nick
> 
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

  --- End Message ---
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Mark Pettifor]

My thinking on antennas is the same as below: Getting rid of or reducing 
interference and noise is the best way to hear what's left - the signal. 
Because usually when you try to increase the signal, you also increase 
the noise (at least, the noise that's in the same path as the signal), 
yes?


Best regards,

Mark Pettifor


On 2018-10-25 1:29 pm, Nick Hall-Patch wrote:

...snip...


This goes back to what some have been mentioning, that ability to null
broadly and in a certain direction is often more important than aiming
the antenna at the DX.


best wishes,

Nick


___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Nick Hall-Patch]

Andare the Asian signals (their carriers) actually stronger on 
the Kaz than on the Superloop, or is the "carrier to noise" ratio 
better on the Kaz?You should be able to tell that by looking at 
small portion of the Elad's display


If the interference level (noise / domestic splatter) is higher on 
the Superloop, the DX won't be as readable, even if its signal 
strength from the Asians is better.


This goes back to what some have been mentioning, that ability to 
null broadly and in a certain direction is often more important than 
aiming the antenna at the DX.



best wishes,

Nick


At 17:02 2018-10-25, Neil Kazaross wrote:

Craig I am surprised that JJ's are so much better on your KAZ that is aimed
at least 40 deg from them than on your Superloop basically aimed right at
them. Your Superloop is 45 x 20 ft so 900 sq ft under it.

What is the height (bottom wire to apex) of your 72 ft KAZ?  73 KAZ worried
something might be wrong with connections to your Superloop.

On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 11:24 AM Mark Durenberger 
wrote:

> Thanks Mark.  Kaz reminds us that D-KAZ Aspect Ratio is important to a good
> EZNEC result so, presumably, the same is true in real antenna life.
>
> One of the measurement runs I've made for the upcoming D-KAZ Cookbook
> compared two different apex heights.
>
>
> Cheers!
>
> Mark Durenberger
>
>


Nick Hall-Patch
Victoria, BC
Canada 


___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Neil Kazaross]

Mark C, your tall DKAZ idea should work as a decent compromise. I am
surprised that the real low end seems not to provide really good F/B no
matter what I do. I changed to 30 ft high rather than 40 and while you lose
3 dB signal at 530 KHz, the pattern is somewhat better, but still not as
good as I'd like. However, higher up, per EZNEC you'll love the antenna.
73 KAZ

On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 12:02 PM Neil Kazaross  wrote:

> Craig I am surprised that JJ's are so much better on your KAZ that is
> aimed at least 40 deg from them than on your Superloop basically aimed
> right at them. Your Superloop is 45 x 20 ft so 900 sq ft under it.
>
> What is the height (bottom wire to apex) of your 72 ft KAZ?  73 KAZ
> worried something might be wrong with connections to your Superloop.
>
> On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 11:24 AM Mark Durenberger 
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Mark.  Kaz reminds us that D-KAZ Aspect Ratio is important to a
>> good
>> EZNEC result so, presumably, the same is true in real antenna life.
>>
>> One of the measurement runs I've made for the upcoming D-KAZ Cookbook
>> compared two different apex heights.
>>
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>> Mark Durenberger
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IRCA  On Behalf Of Mark Connelly via
>> IRCA
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 9:47 PM
>> To: irca@hard-core-dx.com
>> Cc: Mark Connelly 
>> Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>>
>> ___
>> IRCA mailing list
>> IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
>> http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
>>
>> Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
>> original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the
>> IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
>>
>> For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
>>
>> To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
>>
>>
>> ___
>> IRCA mailing list
>> IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
>> http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
>>
>> Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
>> original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the
>> IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
>>
>> For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
>>
>> To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
>>
>>
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Neil Kazaross]

Craig I am surprised that JJ's are so much better on your KAZ that is aimed
at least 40 deg from them than on your Superloop basically aimed right at
them. Your Superloop is 45 x 20 ft so 900 sq ft under it.

What is the height (bottom wire to apex) of your 72 ft KAZ?  73 KAZ worried
something might be wrong with connections to your Superloop.

On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 11:24 AM Mark Durenberger 
wrote:

> Thanks Mark.  Kaz reminds us that D-KAZ Aspect Ratio is important to a good
> EZNEC result so, presumably, the same is true in real antenna life.
>
> One of the measurement runs I've made for the upcoming D-KAZ Cookbook
> compared two different apex heights.
>
>
> Cheers!
>
> Mark Durenberger
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IRCA  On Behalf Of Mark Connelly via
> IRCA
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 9:47 PM
> To: irca@hard-core-dx.com
> Cc: Mark Connelly 
> Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>
> ___
> IRCA mailing list
> IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
> http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
>
> Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
> original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the
> IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
>
> For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
>
> To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
>
>
> ___
> IRCA mailing list
> IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
> http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
>
> Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
> original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the
> IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
>
> For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
>
> To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
>
>
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Mark Durenberger]

Thanks Mark.  Kaz reminds us that D-KAZ Aspect Ratio is important to a good
EZNEC result so, presumably, the same is true in real antenna life.

One of the measurement runs I've made for the upcoming D-KAZ Cookbook
compared two different apex heights.


Cheers!

Mark Durenberger

-Original Message-
From: IRCA  On Behalf Of Mark Connelly via
IRCA
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 9:47 PM
To: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Cc: Mark Connelly 
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the
IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com


___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Donald Barnes via IRCA]

--- Begin Message ---
FWIW,

I have a 45ft long by 20 ft. high Superloop about 10 ft. off of the ground 
currently aimed at ~300 degrees and a 72 ft single KAZ aimed at ~260 degrees, 
making for a 40 degree orientation difference. I recently did a few impromptu A 
vs B comparisons between the two antennas on two of the Japanese big guns JOIB 
and JOUB. Hands down, the KAZ provided stronger and more readable copy on those 
two stations. That’s what inspired the “what if” question regarding the DKAZ. 
The KAZ also seems to provide better signal to noise performance as well. I am 
by no means an antenna expert, only a habitual antenna experimenter.

Great discussion!

73,

Craig Barnes
Wheat Ridge, CO

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 24, 2018, at 8:47 PM, Mark Connelly via IRCA  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> ___
> IRCA mailing list
> IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
> http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
> 
> Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
> contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
> editors, publishing staff, or officers
> 
> For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
> 
> To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
> 

--- End Message ---
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Mark Connelly via IRCA]

--- Begin Message ---
I think one question that may have been hinted-at is if you have to keep your 
DKAZ on the shorter side horizontally, can you make up the poor low band gain 
by going higher on the vertical dimension?

For the EZNEC experts: If you had two 50 ft. trees 50 ft. apart and hung up 
your antenna so the apex points were 46 ft. up and the base wires 6 ft. up, and 
had an end to end length of 100 ft., could such a DKAZ compete with one about 
1.5 times that length but half the height?

Obviously gain isn't the whole game.  The null zone has to be substantially 
wider than that of a regular Flag / SuperLoop and it has to hold up well across 
the band without a constant need to tweak the termination via Vactrol or 
something else while moving around the band.

That Powerpoint presentation referenced by Nick was interesting in that it 
covered many kinds of MW antennas but didn't say much about the Beverage, once 
considered the king of DX antennas.

I tried a reduced size (less than 80 ft. end to end) DKAZ here and, yes, it was 
gain-dead on the lower half of the band.  I wasn't even convinced that the null 
zone was any better or more consistent across bandwidth than SuperLoops that 
have served me well here.

I have also used a Bowtie with mixed results.  See 
http://www.qsl.net/wa1ion/pictures1/bowtie_s_yarmouth.gif for diagram.  I 
welcome comments from others who have used a similar antenna.  How it compares 
with DKAZ would be the most relevant topic.

DHDL is a related type:
https://dh1tw.de/double-half-delta-loop-dhdl-receiving-antenna/

My biggest pests are the NYC stations about 200 miles to the west.  There is 
mixed groundwave and skywave at night.  The apparent arrival angles on the 
higher band stations such as 1130, 1190, 1280, and 1560 move around a lot.  A 
proper DKAZ, an array of them, or Lankford's set-up would be just the ticket to 
get that big wide back null covering that wide spray-pattern of bounce angles.

With only about 100 ft. of east-west usable yard space, that just isn't going 
to happen here.

What I wind up with instead is likely to be the null-west SuperLoop, a 
null-north one, and one-frequency-at-a-time phasing during live DX to throttle 
down the persistent super-pests that just won't go away otherwise.

On the car roof, I used to phase a loop versus an active whip and I could get 
nulls much deeper than what the loop alone gave .. but only on one frequency at 
a time.

The Split Flag / Split SuperLoop designs might also be worth a look to see if 
reasonable gain and directivity can be mustered in a less-than-140 ft. length.  
The inconvenience of these typically requiring three tall supports may tend to 
rule them out for some.
http://www.qsl.net/wa1ion/pictures1/dual_feed_split_flag.gif
http://www.qsl.net/wa1ion/pictures1/dual_feed_split_superloop_38m_long.gif
http://www.qsl.net/wa1ion/pictures1/split_superloop_201709.gif

Mark Connelly, WA1ION
South Yarmouth, MA
 
<<
Well here's something that's been on my mind lately, regarding
differences between superloops and the DKAZ:

It seems to be my experience so far that at night, the back and side
nulling characteristics of these antennas changes, due to sky wave vs.
ground wave, yes? Which one is more affected by those changes?

Mark
Goshen, IN

On 2018-10-24 1:42 pm, Chuck Hutton wrote:
> Mark -
>
>
> No arrogance detected here.
>
> Now back to the issue of DKAZ low band performance...?
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
> 
> From: IRCA  on behalf of Mark Pettifor
> 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 8:58 AM
> To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
> Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>
>
> Apologies, Chuck, and to the rest here. In looking back at my post, I
> realize I could have said things a lot less arrogantly and put-offish.
> That's how I sounded to myself anyway after re-reading what I posted.
>
> 73,
> Mark
>
> On 2018-10-24 1:57 am, Chuck Hutton wrote:
>> Mark -
>>
>>
>> I suppose we all agree that the DKAZ has nailed some great catches.
>>
>> My goal was to point out a shortcoming, not to say that it can't hear
>> DX a la Colombia / Venezuela / Nicaragua.
>>
>>
>> Chuck
>>--- End Message ---
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Neil Kazaross]

Steve, I think your termination resistor is considerably too high and that
it would be worthwhile for you to try lower values. Other than that, I'd
not make any other changes to it as I don't think it would be worth all
that work.

73 KAZ

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 2:57 PM STEVE  wrote:

> Here's my (trivial) contribution. I'm mostly an LF NDB DXer and love to
> hear any Pacific beacons. I had room for a DKAZ and hadn't heard about
> the superiorities of longer horizontal length so put up the standard
> 140' DKAZ. Due to critters around, primarily javelina who will tear down
> anything in their path, my bottom horizontal wire lies on the ground.
> The ground in this S. AZ desert is mostly a thin layer of soil with rock
> underneath. My DKAZ points west and I use a Wellbrook FLG100LN preamp. I
> use a fixed 1200 ohm termination resistor and have not spent any time
> trying to optimize it. Experiments indicated the Wellbrook preamp was
> noticeably quieter for noise pickup than a matching transformer at the
> DKAZ and a preamp in the shack. I run about 550 feet of RG6 coax from
> DKAZ to shack--trying to get the DKAZ as much out of the fairly high
> local AC noise environment as possible. I also have a 900' E/W longwire
> which gives somewhat stronger LF Pacifics than the DKAZ however the east
> pickup deteriorates the S/N ratio such that the DKAZ even though
> somewhat lower level is almost always noticeably better S/N ratio on LF
> signals and is almost always clearly superior to the E/W longwire for
> Pacifics. I have not so far found a western LF signal that the E/W wire
> heard that couldn't also be heard on the DKAZ. Folks may have found the
> DKAZ is lower output the lower you go in frequency, but for my uses it
> is definitely not suffering from lack of LF performance, again when used
> with the FLG100LN preamp. I also try occasionally (if I'm determined to
> get up early enough) for MW Pacific signals, and the DKAZ is even better
> than the E/W longwire all over the whole MW band. At the top of the
> band, 1566 HLAZ is always better on the DKAZ, for instance. On times
> when DU expanded-band signals are heard, the DKAZ hears them when the
> longwire usually has no trace of them.
>
> Especially for a permanent installation, it's a major job to erect a
> DKAZ; perhaps some day I'll see about possibly extending it to 160'
> horizontal or maybe longer if there's room. A lot of extra brush would
> need clearing, etc. A major job! But the current basic 140' DKAZ is
> working superbly for me for both western LF and MW reception.
>
> 73,
>
> Steve AA7U
>
> near Sahuarita, AZ
>
> On 10/24/2018 10:42 AM, Chuck Hutton wrote:
> > Mark -
> >
> >
> > No arrogance detected here.
> >
> > Now back to the issue of DKAZ low band performance...…
> >
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> ___
> IRCA mailing list
> IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
> http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
>
> Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
> original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the
> IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
>
> For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
>
> To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
>
>
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[STEVE]

Here's my (trivial) contribution. I'm mostly an LF NDB DXer and love to 
hear any Pacific beacons. I had room for a DKAZ and hadn't heard about 
the superiorities of longer horizontal length so put up the standard 
140' DKAZ. Due to critters around, primarily javelina who will tear down 
anything in their path, my bottom horizontal wire lies on the ground. 
The ground in this S. AZ desert is mostly a thin layer of soil with rock 
underneath. My DKAZ points west and I use a Wellbrook FLG100LN preamp. I 
use a fixed 1200 ohm termination resistor and have not spent any time 
trying to optimize it. Experiments indicated the Wellbrook preamp was 
noticeably quieter for noise pickup than a matching transformer at the 
DKAZ and a preamp in the shack. I run about 550 feet of RG6 coax from 
DKAZ to shack--trying to get the DKAZ as much out of the fairly high 
local AC noise environment as possible. I also have a 900' E/W longwire 
which gives somewhat stronger LF Pacifics than the DKAZ however the east 
pickup deteriorates the S/N ratio such that the DKAZ even though 
somewhat lower level is almost always noticeably better S/N ratio on LF 
signals and is almost always clearly superior to the E/W longwire for 
Pacifics. I have not so far found a western LF signal that the E/W wire 
heard that couldn't also be heard on the DKAZ. Folks may have found the 
DKAZ is lower output the lower you go in frequency, but for my uses it 
is definitely not suffering from lack of LF performance, again when used 
with the FLG100LN preamp. I also try occasionally (if I'm determined to 
get up early enough) for MW Pacific signals, and the DKAZ is even better 
than the E/W longwire all over the whole MW band. At the top of the 
band, 1566 HLAZ is always better on the DKAZ, for instance. On times 
when DU expanded-band signals are heard, the DKAZ hears them when the 
longwire usually has no trace of them.


Especially for a permanent installation, it's a major job to erect a 
DKAZ; perhaps some day I'll see about possibly extending it to 160' 
horizontal or maybe longer if there's room. A lot of extra brush would 
need clearing, etc. A major job! But the current basic 140' DKAZ is 
working superbly for me for both western LF and MW reception.


73,

Steve AA7U

near Sahuarita, AZ

On 10/24/2018 10:42 AM, Chuck Hutton wrote:

Mark -


No arrogance detected here.

Now back to the issue of DKAZ low band performance...…


Chuck


___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Neil Kazaross]

The Double Loop genre of antennas models to have better back end nulling
performance at relevant higher angles (ie rather short skip) than do the
single loops. This is because a double loop is nearly electrically the same
as an end fire array of two single loops.

73 KAZ

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:27 PM Mark Pettifor  wrote:

> Well here's something that's been on my mind lately, regarding
> differences between superloops and the DKAZ:
>
> It seems to be my experience so far that at night, the back and side
> nulling characteristics of these antennas changes, due to sky wave vs.
> ground wave, yes? Which one is more affected by those changes?
>
> Mark
> Goshen, IN
>
> On 2018-10-24 1:42 pm, Chuck Hutton wrote:
> > Mark -
> >
> >
> > No arrogance detected here.
> >
> > Now back to the issue of DKAZ low band performance...…
> >
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> >
> > 
> > From: IRCA  on behalf of Mark Pettifor
> > 
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 8:58 AM
> > To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
> > Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
> >
> >
> > Apologies, Chuck, and to the rest here. In looking back at my post, I
> > realize I could have said things a lot less arrogantly and put-offish.
> > That's how I sounded to myself anyway after re-reading what I posted.
> >
> > 73,
> > Mark
> >
> > On 2018-10-24 1:57 am, Chuck Hutton wrote:
> >> Mark -
> >>
> >>
> >> I suppose we all agree that the DKAZ has nailed some great catches.
> >>
> >> My goal was to point out a shortcoming, not to say that it can't hear
> >> DX a la Colombia / Venezuela / Nicaragua.
> >>
> >>
> >> Chuck
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> >>
> > ___
> > IRCA mailing list
> > IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
> > http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
> > IRCA Info Page -
> > Kotalampi<http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca>
> > montreal.kotalampi.com
> > This group is for those interested in AM (Broadcast Band) DXing,
> > sponsored by the International Radio Club of America (IRCA) To see the
> > collection of prior postings to the list, visit the IRCA Archives.(The
> > current archive is only available to the list members.Using IRCA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
> > original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of
> > the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
> >
> > For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
> >
> > To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
> >
> > ___
> > IRCA mailing list
> > IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
> > http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
> >
> > Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
> > original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of
> > the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
> >
> > For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
> >
> > To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
> ___
> IRCA mailing list
> IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
> http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
>
> Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
> original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the
> IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
>
> For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
>
> To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
>
>
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Mark Pettifor]

Well here's something that's been on my mind lately, regarding 
differences between superloops and the DKAZ:


It seems to be my experience so far that at night, the back and side 
nulling characteristics of these antennas changes, due to sky wave vs. 
ground wave, yes? Which one is more affected by those changes?


Mark
Goshen, IN

On 2018-10-24 1:42 pm, Chuck Hutton wrote:

Mark -


No arrogance detected here.

Now back to the issue of DKAZ low band performance...…


Chuck



From: IRCA  on behalf of Mark Pettifor

Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 8:58 AM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag


Apologies, Chuck, and to the rest here. In looking back at my post, I
realize I could have said things a lot less arrogantly and put-offish.
That's how I sounded to myself anyway after re-reading what I posted.

73,
Mark

On 2018-10-24 1:57 am, Chuck Hutton wrote:

Mark -


I suppose we all agree that the DKAZ has nailed some great catches.

My goal was to point out a shortcoming, not to say that it can't hear
DX a la Colombia / Venezuela / Nicaragua.


Chuck





___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
IRCA Info Page - 
Kotalampi<http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca>

montreal.kotalampi.com
This group is for those interested in AM (Broadcast Band) DXing,
sponsored by the International Radio Club of America (IRCA) To see the
collection of prior postings to the list, visit the IRCA Archives.(The
current archive is only available to the list members.Using IRCA




Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of
the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of
the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Chuck Hutton]

Mark -


No arrogance detected here.

Now back to the issue of DKAZ low band performance...…


Chuck



From: IRCA  on behalf of Mark Pettifor 

Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 8:58 AM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag


Apologies, Chuck, and to the rest here. In looking back at my post, I
realize I could have said things a lot less arrogantly and put-offish.
That's how I sounded to myself anyway after re-reading what I posted.

73,
Mark

On 2018-10-24 1:57 am, Chuck Hutton wrote:
> Mark -
>
>
> I suppose we all agree that the DKAZ has nailed some great catches.
>
> My goal was to point out a shortcoming, not to say that it can't hear
> DX a la Colombia / Venezuela / Nicaragua.
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
> 
>
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
IRCA Info Page - Kotalampi<http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca>
montreal.kotalampi.com
This group is for those interested in AM (Broadcast Band) DXing, sponsored by 
the International Radio Club of America (IRCA) To see the collection of prior 
postings to the list, visit the IRCA Archives.(The current archive is only 
available to the list members.Using IRCA




Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Mark Pettifor]

Apologies, Chuck, and to the rest here. In looking back at my post, I 
realize I could have said things a lot less arrogantly and put-offish. 
That's how I sounded to myself anyway after re-reading what I posted.


73,
Mark

On 2018-10-24 1:57 am, Chuck Hutton wrote:

Mark -


I suppose we all agree that the DKAZ has nailed some great catches.

My goal was to point out a shortcoming, not to say that it can't hear
DX a la Colombia / Venezuela / Nicaragua.


Chuck





___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Neil Kazaross]

Why thanks, Bill. Re: DU's, if I send you an audio clip of 738 2NR from
Monday, you'll be shocked at the level as it is about the clearest DU ever
heard here in IL. My lack of noise, may make you want to move. Noise is
down considerably here compared to last year. It was more quiet in the mid
1990's here, but this is pretty good and very helpful to have little noise
most of the time.

Sunrise has been stunning with many new additions from the west coast. As
an example, Monday at 7 am local CDT, mixed under an unID SS rlg stn, are
two "The Answer" slogans run together from male voices that are slightly
different. So that is KTRB (needed) and KPAM (not needed as logged via SSS
a few times). With even a slight noise level, I'd likely not have been able
to copy that. A few minutes later XEMO (common lately) IDed so that is 3
west coast stations on 860 within a couple minutes at sunrise.

With the reduced noise level, I am thinking about re-installing a 2nd West
DKAZ for a broadside phased array. They will be too close to help out much
at the bottom of the band, but this array proved very useful higher up two
seasons ago.  ie...KSTP 1500 basically gone and with a twist of the switch
to switch phase, KRJO 1680 gone making KNTS basically a pest as the
terminations clobbers WPRR.

73 KAZ Barrington IL

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 6:54 AM His  wrote:

> Fascinating discussion.  I have come to use the 160’ DKAZ exclusively for
> my bi-annual trips to Grayland and Lubec.
>
> It is a GREAT ‘coastal’ antenna - where the DX is all in front of you and
> the crap is all behind you.
>
> As Nick points out it can be more critical where you point the null vs.
> the main lobe of the antenna.
>
> I wonder Chuck if you could ad a column for mid-band to your EZNEC chart?
>
> As others have already stated, I too have found the DKAZ at any length
> above 120’ is a great mid-band antenna with various less-than-perfect
> features on both high and low end, a little less F/B and a little less
> sensitivity respectively.
>
> That Kaz is hearing low band DUs from IL on a 120’ DKAZ says it all.
> Whatever the less-than-perfect features of the DKAZ it is still the best
> all-‘round, single structure, outdoor MW antenna I’ve ever used.  I’ve put
> up and taken down over 30 in the past several years in various places and
> by now I think I could probably do it in the dark … in fact I have more
> than once in Maine arriving after 4pm sunset in November!
>
> Thanks for coming up with the design Neil!
>
> Bill Whitacre
> Alexandria, VA
>
> ---
>
> > On Oct 24, 2018, at 1:57 AM, Chuck Hutton  wrote:
> >
> > Mark -
> >
> >
> > I suppose we all agree that the DKAZ has nailed some great catches.
> >
> > My goal was to point out a shortcoming, not to say that it can't hear DX
> a la Colombia / Venezuela / Nicaragua.
> >
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> >
> > 
> > From: IRCA  on behalf of Mark Pettifor <
> m...@spacetubes.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 8:20 PM
> > To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
> > Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
> >
> > **Anecdotal evidence alert**
> >
> > I guess I'll risk getting attacked with fruit as well. I got into the AM
> > DX part of the hobby only two years ago, so I didn't get the memo about
> > 140 feet being too short. I have lots of great catches from here in the
> > Midwest on the shorter DKAZ made from those instructions, like Colombia,
> > Venezuela and Nicaragua, a very tentative snippet from Brazil, and I'm
> > pretty sure I have Tahiti on one of the recordings I made before they
> > went off the air. (I just have to remember which hard drive it's on...)
> >
> > For most of that time though I have been using the FLG100LN-2, which I'm
> > sure makes a difference. I also didn't make it reversible or anything. I
> > put up a "test" antenna to see how it would perform, using some coax and
> > my first hand-made transformer (on a toroid my brother had lying about
> > at his workplace, so I don't even know what material it is), and have
> > been using it ever since, manually switching it from N-S to E-W. But
> > like driving a stick shift, you only do it for so long and then you want
> > an automatic, so I might try to make it reversible (and add a second one
> > if I can figure out where to put it, to cover all directions).
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > On 2018-10-23 10:30 pm, Mark Durenberger wrote:
> >> Hi Don.  That D-Kaz paper is being updated but will probably still
> >> suggest
> >> 140 feet as a popular length.
> >>
> >> (Ducking

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[His]

I remember Chuck talking about a non-linear amplifier for the DKAZ - one that 
gave more oomph on the low end than the top end.  That would be nice.

I end up making liberal use of attenuation on the Perseus to not overload the 
top end to get enough signal on the low end.

Chuck’s non-linear amp would be a very nice addition to a 9:1 balun for the 
business end of a DKAZ vs. a FLG100[LN].

Op amp with some external components and an ability to actually adjust where 
the rolloff begins aught to be possible.

Who will design such a device?

May we could talk Andy into making a ‘special’ DKAZ version of the FLG100?!

Wild talk from a crazed DXer.

Bill Whitacre
Alexandria, VA

---

> On Oct 23, 2018, at 10:48 PM, Nick Hall-Patch  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for doing that Chuck.  One interesting number is 42dB F/B at 0.5MHz 
> for 120'.  Is that correct?
> 
> But the problem seems to go beyond low signal level on the lower band with 
> smaller DKaz.  Beyond that one data point I mention, it also seems that the 
> larger DKaz provides significantly better F/B on the low band, as it also 
> weakens the F/B on the upper band.
> 
> Looks like two DKaz' are in order for the next DXpedition, a big one and a 
> small one...
> 
> 
> Nick
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 01:31 2018-10-24, Chuck Hutton wrote:
>> Here's a little comparison of DKAZ'es from 100' to 200'.
>> 
>> 
>> LENGTH  .5 MHZ GAIN 1.5 MHZ GAIN.5 MHZ F/B  1.5 MHZ F/B
>> 100 -61.1   -34.6   35.147.3
>> 120 -58 -31.8   42  32.5
>> 140 -55.4   -29.5   37.430.7
>> 160 -53.2   -27.5   39.426.5
>> 180 -51.2   -26.8   44.822.2
>> 200 -49.5   -24.2   45.219.1
>> 
>> 
>> The formatting is a little messed up when pasting data from Excel.
>> 
>> 
>> Chuck
>> 
>> 
>> ________________
>> From: IRCA  on behalf of Don Moman VE6JY 
>> 
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 4:02 PM
>> To: International Radio Club of America
>> Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>> 
>> http://www.durenberger.com/documents/DKAZ070314.pdf   is updated and still
>> SOME FIELD INFORMATION ON THE DOUBLE DELTA (D KAZ) 
>> ANTENNA<http://www.durenberger.com/documents/DKAZ070314.pdf>
>> www.durenberger.com
>> The D$B!>(BKaz antenna for MW (and well above) is a Double$B!>(BDelta 
>> variant, as seen below. The $B!H(Bself$B!>(Bimpedance$B!I(B of the 
>> D$B!>(BKaz is around 1000 ohms at corners $B!H(BA$B!I(B and $B!H(BB.$B!I(B 
>> The null$B!>(Bpot at 2000 ohms gives good range.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> shows the 140 foot version.  I don't see anything more recent I wish I
>> had. Is there a link?  I just built 4 of them last year, one for each major
>> direction. I finally have them all hooked up for this season. With the low
>> wire they are a great moose catcher!  I could have easily made them higher
>> but I was just following the instructions. I could have made them larger as
>> I have plenty of room. Now not so easy...
>> Don
>> VE6JY
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 3:36 PM Chuck Hutton  wrote:
>> 
>> > As do we all I think. The 140 foot version was abandoned over 5 years ago
>> > as it wasn't cutting it at th low end.
>> >
>> >
>> > Chuck
>> >
>> >
>> > 
>> >
>> >
>> ___
>> IRCA mailing list
>> IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
>> http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
>> 
>> Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the 
>> original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the 
>> IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
>> 
>> For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
>> 
>> To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
>> 
>> ___
>> IRCA mailing list
>> IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
>> http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
>> 
>> Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the 
>> original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the 
>> IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
>> 
>> For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
>> 
>> To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
> 
> Nick Hall-Patch
> Victoria, BC
> Canada 
> ___
> IRCA mailing list
> IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
> http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
> 
>

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[His]

Fascinating discussion.  I have come to use the 160’ DKAZ exclusively for my 
bi-annual trips to Grayland and Lubec.

It is a GREAT ‘coastal’ antenna - where the DX is all in front of you and the 
crap is all behind you.

As Nick points out it can be more critical where you point the null vs. the 
main lobe of the antenna.

I wonder Chuck if you could ad a column for mid-band to your EZNEC chart?

As others have already stated, I too have found the DKAZ at any length above 
120’ is a great mid-band antenna with various less-than-perfect features on 
both high and low end, a little less F/B and a little less sensitivity 
respectively.

That Kaz is hearing low band DUs from IL on a 120’ DKAZ says it all.  Whatever 
the less-than-perfect features of the DKAZ it is still the best all-‘round, 
single structure, outdoor MW antenna I’ve ever used.  I’ve put up and taken 
down over 30 in the past several years in various places and by now I think I 
could probably do it in the dark … in fact I have more than once in Maine 
arriving after 4pm sunset in November!

Thanks for coming up with the design Neil!

Bill Whitacre
Alexandria, VA

---

> On Oct 24, 2018, at 1:57 AM, Chuck Hutton  wrote:
> 
> Mark -
> 
> 
> I suppose we all agree that the DKAZ has nailed some great catches.
> 
> My goal was to point out a shortcoming, not to say that it can't hear DX a la 
> Colombia / Venezuela / Nicaragua.
> 
> 
> Chuck
> 
> 
> 
> From: IRCA  on behalf of Mark Pettifor 
> 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 8:20 PM
> To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
> Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
> 
> **Anecdotal evidence alert**
> 
> I guess I'll risk getting attacked with fruit as well. I got into the AM
> DX part of the hobby only two years ago, so I didn't get the memo about
> 140 feet being too short. I have lots of great catches from here in the
> Midwest on the shorter DKAZ made from those instructions, like Colombia,
> Venezuela and Nicaragua, a very tentative snippet from Brazil, and I'm
> pretty sure I have Tahiti on one of the recordings I made before they
> went off the air. (I just have to remember which hard drive it's on...)
> 
> For most of that time though I have been using the FLG100LN-2, which I'm
> sure makes a difference. I also didn't make it reversible or anything. I
> put up a "test" antenna to see how it would perform, using some coax and
> my first hand-made transformer (on a toroid my brother had lying about
> at his workplace, so I don't even know what material it is), and have
> been using it ever since, manually switching it from N-S to E-W. But
> like driving a stick shift, you only do it for so long and then you want
> an automatic, so I might try to make it reversible (and add a second one
> if I can figure out where to put it, to cover all directions).
> 
> Mark
> 
> On 2018-10-23 10:30 pm, Mark Durenberger wrote:
>> Hi Don.  That D-Kaz paper is being updated but will probably still
>> suggest
>> 140 feet as a popular length.
>> 
>> (Ducking, expecting incoming bananas from Chuck)
>> 
>> 
>> Cheers!
>> 
>> Mark Durenberger
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IRCA  On Behalf Of Don Moman VE6JY
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 6:02 PM
>> To: International Radio Club of America 
>> Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>> 
>> http://www.durenberger.com/documents/DKAZ070314.pdf   is updated and
> SOME FIELD INFORMATION ON THE DOUBLE DELTA (D KAZ) 
> ANTENNA<http://www.durenberger.com/documents/DKAZ070314.pdf>
> www.durenberger.com
> The D‐Kaz antenna for MW (and well above) is a Double‐Delta variant, as seen 
> below. The “self‐impedance” of the D‐Kaz is around 1000 ohms at corners “A” 
> and “B.” The null‐pot at 2000 ohms gives good range.
> 
> 
> 
>> still
>> shows the 140 foot version.  I don't see anything more recent I
>> wish I
>> had. Is there a link?  I just built 4 of them last year, one for each
>> major
>> direction. I finally have them all hooked up for this season. With the
>> low
>> wire they are a great moose catcher!  I could have easily made them
>> higher
>> but I was just following the instructions. I could have made them
>> larger as
>> I have plenty of room. Now not so easy...
>> Don
>> VE6JY
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 3:36 PM Chuck Hutton  wrote:
>> 
>>> As do we all I think. The 140 foot version was abandoned over 5 years
>>> ago as it wasn't cutting it at th low end.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Chuck
>>> 
> ___
> IRCA

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Chuck Hutton]

Mark -


I suppose we all agree that the DKAZ has nailed some great catches.

My goal was to point out a shortcoming, not to say that it can't hear DX a la 
Colombia / Venezuela / Nicaragua.


Chuck



From: IRCA  on behalf of Mark Pettifor 

Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 8:20 PM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

**Anecdotal evidence alert**

I guess I'll risk getting attacked with fruit as well. I got into the AM
DX part of the hobby only two years ago, so I didn't get the memo about
140 feet being too short. I have lots of great catches from here in the
Midwest on the shorter DKAZ made from those instructions, like Colombia,
Venezuela and Nicaragua, a very tentative snippet from Brazil, and I'm
pretty sure I have Tahiti on one of the recordings I made before they
went off the air. (I just have to remember which hard drive it's on...)

For most of that time though I have been using the FLG100LN-2, which I'm
sure makes a difference. I also didn't make it reversible or anything. I
put up a "test" antenna to see how it would perform, using some coax and
my first hand-made transformer (on a toroid my brother had lying about
at his workplace, so I don't even know what material it is), and have
been using it ever since, manually switching it from N-S to E-W. But
like driving a stick shift, you only do it for so long and then you want
an automatic, so I might try to make it reversible (and add a second one
if I can figure out where to put it, to cover all directions).

Mark

On 2018-10-23 10:30 pm, Mark Durenberger wrote:
> Hi Don.  That D-Kaz paper is being updated but will probably still
> suggest
> 140 feet as a popular length.
>
> (Ducking, expecting incoming bananas from Chuck)
>
>
> Cheers!
>
> Mark Durenberger
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IRCA  On Behalf Of Don Moman VE6JY
> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 6:02 PM
> To: International Radio Club of America 
> Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>
> http://www.durenberger.com/documents/DKAZ070314.pdf   is updated and
SOME FIELD INFORMATION ON THE DOUBLE DELTA (D KAZ) 
ANTENNA<http://www.durenberger.com/documents/DKAZ070314.pdf>
www.durenberger.com
The D‐Kaz antenna for MW (and well above) is a Double‐Delta variant, as seen 
below. The “self‐impedance” of the D‐Kaz is around 1000 ohms at corners “A” and 
“B.” The null‐pot at 2000 ohms gives good range.



> still
> shows the 140 foot version.  I don't see anything more recent I
> wish I
> had. Is there a link?  I just built 4 of them last year, one for each
> major
> direction. I finally have them all hooked up for this season. With the
> low
> wire they are a great moose catcher!  I could have easily made them
> higher
> but I was just following the instructions. I could have made them
> larger as
> I have plenty of room. Now not so easy...
> Don
> VE6JY
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 3:36 PM Chuck Hutton  wrote:
>
>> As do we all I think. The 140 foot version was abandoned over 5 years
>> ago as it wasn't cutting it at th low end.
>>
>>
>> Chuck
>>
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Nick Hall-Patch]

Ah yes, ladder work.  I've been keeping in trim with outside house 
painting in case it ever needs to be done again


best wishes,

Nick


At 04:09 2018-10-24, Volodya S wrote:

...  Another array that we
experimented with was the Double loop Wellbrook, which also was no slouch
of a performer, especially when we changed the loops from delta loops to
rectangular loops (remember, Nick?).Walt

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 4:37 PM Guy Atkins  wrote:

> Hi Nick,
>
> The best F/B of any phased antenna I've experienced at the coast was Dallas
> Lankford's Quad Delta Flag Array (QDFA). I know you're quite familiar with
> this, but some others on the IRCA list may not be. Here is an archived link
> to Dallas' article on this antenna:
>
>
> 
http://web.archive.org/web/20100921085637fw_/http://kongsfjord.no/dl/Antennas/Phased%20Delta%20Flag%20Arrays%20rev%2010.pdf

>
> I worked with Dallas in 2009 to get his design tested and operational at
> Grayland. Once we got a few bugs out of this complicated design, the result
> was phenomenal. Check out the pattern on page 3 of the PDF and you'll see
> why domestic inland DX at sunrise was knocked down to a degree I'd never
> experienced before or since.
>
> This four loop, phased antenna system is NOT DXpedition friendly. Because
> of the complexity it's best for a permanent installation. I know that
> Bjarne Mjelde also installed a QDFA some years ago but I don't know if it's
> still operational.
>
> 73,
>
> Guy Atkins
> Puyallup, WA
>
> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 8:42 AM Nick Hall-Patch  wrote:
>
> > For the coastal DXer, I think that the takeaway
> > from the presentation was that the really
> > important thing is not so much the response from
> > the two quadrants facing out over the ocean, but
> > rather, the two quadrants facing the domestic interference.
> >
> > The DKaz has a narrower beam, but often the MW
> > DXer wants to hear whatever the conditions
> > deliver, whether it be New Zealand or Siberia, so
> > a narrow beam is not always an advantage.   But
> > ideally, don't you really want zero signal from
> > the two quadrants facing inland?  The DX is out
> > there, but in a realistic situation, often it is
> > hard to (impossible?) to read due to domestic splatter.
> >
> > Where the DKaz really shines then is in those two
> > quadrants facing inland.  It delivers less signal
> > from those two quadrants than the Flag does, so the DX is more readable.
> >
> > For an inland DXer, the narrower beam will be
> > more an advantage, because it will lessen
> > interference in the forward direction,  but
> > probably it is still better to place its back
> > side to minimize the overall interference level,
> > because the beam width is still wide enough to
> > inhale a fair bit of DX, .  Craig's 260 degree
> > proposed direction should be ideal for down
> > under, and still hear Japan pretty well with that
> > 100 degree beam width.  Hopefully, it
> > incidentally nulls a lot of domestic interference as well.
> >
> >
> > Nick
> >
> ___
> IRCA mailing list
> IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
> http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
>
> Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
> original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the
> IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
>
> For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
>
> To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
>
>
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the 
original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of 
the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers


For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com


Nick Hall-Patch
Victoria, BC
Canada 


___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Volodya S]

Guy kindly built the Lankford Quad array for me back around the same time.
I took it up to my DX place in Masset.  It was a bugger to erect, mostly
because I have very heavy and rapid growth of salal and alder trees .
After a 1/2 day of clearing bush, I was able to erect the array facing due
north for over the Pole reception.  I admit it was an impressive (and
beautiful) looking array, but as my trips are often short, I couldn't
justify the time it took to erect each time.  Another array that we
experimented with was the Double loop Wellbrook, which also was no slouch
of a performer, especially when we changed the loops from delta loops to
rectangular loops (remember, Nick?).Walt

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 4:37 PM Guy Atkins  wrote:

> Hi Nick,
>
> The best F/B of any phased antenna I've experienced at the coast was Dallas
> Lankford's Quad Delta Flag Array (QDFA). I know you're quite familiar with
> this, but some others on the IRCA list may not be. Here is an archived link
> to Dallas' article on this antenna:
>
>
> http://web.archive.org/web/20100921085637fw_/http://kongsfjord.no/dl/Antennas/Phased%20Delta%20Flag%20Arrays%20rev%2010.pdf
>
> I worked with Dallas in 2009 to get his design tested and operational at
> Grayland. Once we got a few bugs out of this complicated design, the result
> was phenomenal. Check out the pattern on page 3 of the PDF and you'll see
> why domestic inland DX at sunrise was knocked down to a degree I'd never
> experienced before or since.
>
> This four loop, phased antenna system is NOT DXpedition friendly. Because
> of the complexity it's best for a permanent installation. I know that
> Bjarne Mjelde also installed a QDFA some years ago but I don't know if it's
> still operational.
>
> 73,
>
> Guy Atkins
> Puyallup, WA
>
> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 8:42 AM Nick Hall-Patch  wrote:
>
> > For the coastal DXer, I think that the takeaway
> > from the presentation was that the really
> > important thing is not so much the response from
> > the two quadrants facing out over the ocean, but
> > rather, the two quadrants facing the domestic interference.
> >
> > The DKaz has a narrower beam, but often the MW
> > DXer wants to hear whatever the conditions
> > deliver, whether it be New Zealand or Siberia, so
> > a narrow beam is not always an advantage.   But
> > ideally, don't you really want zero signal from
> > the two quadrants facing inland?  The DX is out
> > there, but in a realistic situation, often it is
> > hard to (impossible?) to read due to domestic splatter.
> >
> > Where the DKaz really shines then is in those two
> > quadrants facing inland.  It delivers less signal
> > from those two quadrants than the Flag does, so the DX is more readable.
> >
> > For an inland DXer, the narrower beam will be
> > more an advantage, because it will lessen
> > interference in the forward direction,  but
> > probably it is still better to place its back
> > side to minimize the overall interference level,
> > because the beam width is still wide enough to
> > inhale a fair bit of DX, .  Craig's 260 degree
> > proposed direction should be ideal for down
> > under, and still hear Japan pretty well with that
> > 100 degree beam width.  Hopefully, it
> > incidentally nulls a lot of domestic interference as well.
> >
> >
> > Nick
> >
> ___
> IRCA mailing list
> IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
> http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
>
> Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
> original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the
> IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
>
> For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
>
> To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
>
>
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Mark Pettifor]

**Anecdotal evidence alert**

I guess I'll risk getting attacked with fruit as well. I got into the AM 
DX part of the hobby only two years ago, so I didn't get the memo about 
140 feet being too short. I have lots of great catches from here in the 
Midwest on the shorter DKAZ made from those instructions, like Colombia, 
Venezuela and Nicaragua, a very tentative snippet from Brazil, and I'm 
pretty sure I have Tahiti on one of the recordings I made before they 
went off the air. (I just have to remember which hard drive it's on...)


For most of that time though I have been using the FLG100LN-2, which I'm 
sure makes a difference. I also didn't make it reversible or anything. I 
put up a "test" antenna to see how it would perform, using some coax and 
my first hand-made transformer (on a toroid my brother had lying about 
at his workplace, so I don't even know what material it is), and have 
been using it ever since, manually switching it from N-S to E-W. But 
like driving a stick shift, you only do it for so long and then you want 
an automatic, so I might try to make it reversible (and add a second one 
if I can figure out where to put it, to cover all directions).


Mark

On 2018-10-23 10:30 pm, Mark Durenberger wrote:
Hi Don.  That D-Kaz paper is being updated but will probably still 
suggest

140 feet as a popular length.

(Ducking, expecting incoming bananas from Chuck)


Cheers!

Mark Durenberger

-Original Message-
From: IRCA  On Behalf Of Don Moman VE6JY
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 6:02 PM
To: International Radio Club of America 
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

http://www.durenberger.com/documents/DKAZ070314.pdf   is updated and 
still
shows the 140 foot version.  I don't see anything more recent I 
wish I
had. Is there a link?  I just built 4 of them last year, one for each 
major
direction. I finally have them all hooked up for this season. With the 
low
wire they are a great moose catcher!  I could have easily made them 
higher
but I was just following the instructions. I could have made them 
larger as

I have plenty of room. Now not so easy...
Don
VE6JY


On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 3:36 PM Chuck Hutton  wrote:


As do we all I think. The 140 foot version was abandoned over 5 years
ago as it wasn't cutting it at th low end.


Chuck


___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Chuck Hutton]

Nick:


That's what EZNEC says via AutoEZ.


Chuck


From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick Hall-Patch 

Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 7:48 PM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

Thanks for doing that Chuck.  One interesting number is 42dB F/B at
0.5MHz for 120'.  Is that correct?

But the problem seems to go beyond low signal level on the lower band
with smaller DKaz.  Beyond that one data point I mention, it also
seems that the larger DKaz provides significantly better F/B on the
low band, as it also weakens the F/B on the upper band.

Looks like two DKaz' are in order for the next DXpedition, a big one
and a small one...


Nick




At 01:31 2018-10-24, Chuck Hutton wrote:
>Here's a little comparison of DKAZ'es from 100' to 200'.
>
>
>LENGTH  .5 MHZ GAIN 1.5 MHZ GAIN.5 MHZ F/B  1.5 MHZ F/B
>100 -61.1   -34.6   35.147.3
>120 -58 -31.8   42  32.5
>140 -55.4   -29.5   37.430.7
>160 -53.2   -27.5   39.426.5
>180 -51.2   -26.8   44.822.2
>200 -49.5   -24.2   45.219.1
>
>
>The formatting is a little messed up when pasting data from Excel.
>
>
>Chuck
>
>
>
>From: IRCA  on behalf of Don Moman
>VE6JY 
>Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 4:02 PM
>To: International Radio Club of America
>Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>
>http://www.durenberger.com/documents/DKAZ070314.pdf   is updated and still
SOME FIELD INFORMATION ON THE DOUBLE DELTA (D KAZ) 
ANTENNA<http://www.durenberger.com/documents/DKAZ070314.pdf>
www.durenberger.com
The D‐Kaz antenna for MW (and well above) is a Double‐Delta variant, as seen 
below. The “self‐impedance” of the D‐Kaz is around 1000 ohms at corners “A” and 
“B.” The null‐pot at 2000 ohms gives good range.



>SOME FIELD INFORMATION ON THE DOUBLE DELTA (D KAZ)
>ANTENNA<http://www.durenberger.com/documents/DKAZ070314.pdf>
>www.durenberger.com<http://www.durenberger.com>
>The D$B!>(BKaz antenna for MW (and well above) is a
>Double$B!>(BDelta variant, as seen below. The
>$B!H(Bself$B!>(Bimpedance$B!I(B of the D$B!>(BKaz is around 1000
>ohms at corners $B!H(BA$B!I(B and $B!H(BB.$B!I(B The null$B!>(Bpot
>at 2000 ohms gives good range.
>
>
>
>shows the 140 foot version.  I don't see anything more recent I wish I
>had. Is there a link?  I just built 4 of them last year, one for each major
>direction. I finally have them all hooked up for this season. With the low
>wire they are a great moose catcher!  I could have easily made them higher
>but I was just following the instructions. I could have made them larger as
>I have plenty of room. Now not so easy...
>Don
>VE6JY
>
>
>On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 3:36 PM Chuck Hutton  wrote:
>
> > As do we all I think. The 140 foot version was abandoned over 5 years ago
> > as it wasn't cutting it at th low end.
> >
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >
>___
>IRCA mailing list
>IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
>http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
>
>Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
>original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of
>the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
>
>For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
>
>To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
>
>___
>IRCA mailing list
>IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
>http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
>
>Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
>original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of
>the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
>
>For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
>
>To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Nick Hall-Patch
Victoria, BC
Canada

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Nick Hall-Patch]

Thanks for doing that Chuck.  One interesting number is 42dB F/B at 
0.5MHz for 120'.  Is that correct?


But the problem seems to go beyond low signal level on the lower band 
with smaller DKaz.  Beyond that one data point I mention, it also 
seems that the larger DKaz provides significantly better F/B on the 
low band, as it also weakens the F/B on the upper band.


Looks like two DKaz' are in order for the next DXpedition, a big one 
and a small one...



Nick




At 01:31 2018-10-24, Chuck Hutton wrote:

Here's a little comparison of DKAZ'es from 100' to 200'.


LENGTH  .5 MHZ GAIN 1.5 MHZ GAIN.5 MHZ F/B  1.5 MHZ F/B
100 -61.1   -34.6   35.147.3
120 -58 -31.8   42  32.5
140 -55.4   -29.5   37.430.7
160 -53.2   -27.5   39.426.5
180 -51.2   -26.8   44.822.2
200 -49.5   -24.2   45.219.1


The formatting is a little messed up when pasting data from Excel.


Chuck



From: IRCA  on behalf of Don Moman 
VE6JY 

Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 4:02 PM
To: International Radio Club of America
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

http://www.durenberger.com/documents/DKAZ070314.pdf   is updated and still
SOME FIELD INFORMATION ON THE DOUBLE DELTA (D KAZ) 
ANTENNA<http://www.durenberger.com/documents/DKAZ070314.pdf>

www.durenberger.com
The D$B!>(BKaz antenna for MW (and well above) is a 
Double$B!>(BDelta variant, as seen below. The 
$B!H(Bself$B!>(Bimpedance$B!I(B of the D$B!>(BKaz is around 1000 
ohms at corners $B!H(BA$B!I(B and $B!H(BB.$B!I(B The null$B!>(Bpot 
at 2000 ohms gives good range.




shows the 140 foot version.  I don't see anything more recent I wish I
had. Is there a link?  I just built 4 of them last year, one for each major
direction. I finally have them all hooked up for this season. With the low
wire they are a great moose catcher!  I could have easily made them higher
but I was just following the instructions. I could have made them larger as
I have plenty of room. Now not so easy...
Don
VE6JY


On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 3:36 PM Chuck Hutton  wrote:

> As do we all I think. The 140 foot version was abandoned over 5 years ago
> as it wasn't cutting it at th low end.
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
> 
>
>
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the 
original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of 
the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers


For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the 
original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of 
the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers


For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com


Nick Hall-Patch
Victoria, BC
Canada 


___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Mark Durenberger]

Hi Don.  That D-Kaz paper is being updated but will probably still suggest
140 feet as a popular length.

(Ducking, expecting incoming bananas from Chuck)


Cheers!

Mark Durenberger

-Original Message-
From: IRCA  On Behalf Of Don Moman VE6JY
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 6:02 PM
To: International Radio Club of America 
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

http://www.durenberger.com/documents/DKAZ070314.pdf   is updated and still
shows the 140 foot version.  I don't see anything more recent I wish I
had. Is there a link?  I just built 4 of them last year, one for each major
direction. I finally have them all hooked up for this season. With the low
wire they are a great moose catcher!  I could have easily made them higher
but I was just following the instructions. I could have made them larger as
I have plenty of room. Now not so easy...
Don
VE6JY


On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 3:36 PM Chuck Hutton  wrote:

> As do we all I think. The 140 foot version was abandoned over 5 years 
> ago as it wasn't cutting it at th low end.
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
> 
>
>
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the
IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Chuck Hutton]

Here's a little comparison of DKAZ'es from 100' to 200'.


LENGTH  .5 MHZ GAIN 1.5 MHZ GAIN.5 MHZ F/B  1.5 MHZ F/B
100 -61.1   -34.6   35.147.3
120 -58 -31.8   42  32.5
140 -55.4   -29.5   37.430.7
160 -53.2   -27.5   39.426.5
180 -51.2   -26.8   44.822.2
200 -49.5   -24.2   45.219.1


The formatting is a little messed up when pasting data from Excel.


Chuck



From: IRCA  on behalf of Don Moman VE6JY 

Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 4:02 PM
To: International Radio Club of America
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

http://www.durenberger.com/documents/DKAZ070314.pdf   is updated and still
SOME FIELD INFORMATION ON THE DOUBLE DELTA (D KAZ) 
ANTENNA<http://www.durenberger.com/documents/DKAZ070314.pdf>
www.durenberger.com
The D‐Kaz antenna for MW (and well above) is a Double‐Delta variant, as seen 
below. The “self‐impedance” of the D‐Kaz is around 1000 ohms at corners “A” and 
“B.” The null‐pot at 2000 ohms gives good range.



shows the 140 foot version.  I don't see anything more recent I wish I
had. Is there a link?  I just built 4 of them last year, one for each major
direction. I finally have them all hooked up for this season. With the low
wire they are a great moose catcher!  I could have easily made them higher
but I was just following the instructions. I could have made them larger as
I have plenty of room. Now not so easy...
Don
VE6JY


On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 3:36 PM Chuck Hutton  wrote:

> As do we all I think. The 140 foot version was abandoned over 5 years ago
> as it wasn't cutting it at th low end.
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
> 
>
>
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Chuck Hutton]

Nick -


Your question about approaching the noise floor is why I included the -53 dBi. 
With that low a signal level, I think there is a signal strength issue. Even 
with a beefy preamp (20 dB or so), it's still a bit low.


And to throw in an empirical check, last week's DKAZ had almost no audible 
signal on 531 kH.


As for F/B issues, as Kaz has said the 140' version has no real degradation of 
F/B at the top of the band. The 160' version has a some degradation. I don't 
remember the numbers so will have AutoEZ deliver an analysis.





From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick Hall-Patch 

Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 4:22 PM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

The DKaz does indeed deliver less signal to the receiver at the low
end of the band.But does that mean that the DX signals approach
the noise floor of the receiver with the 140 foot version?  Or are
there also front to back issues that arise at well?

Thanks.

Nick





At 21:36 2018-10-23, Chuck Hutton wrote:
>As do we all I think. The 140 foot version was abandoned over 5
>years ago as it wasn't cutting it at th low end.
>
>
>Chuck
>
>
>
>From: IRCA  on behalf of Mark
>Durenberger 
>Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 2:13 PM
>To: 'Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America'
>Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>
>Bill uses a "big" D-Kaz (160 ft)
>
>
>Cheers!
>
>Mark Durenberger
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IRCA  On Behalf Of C B via IRCA
>Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 3:38 PM
>To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
>
>Cc: C B 
>Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>
>___
>IRCA mailing list
>IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
>http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
IRCA Info Page - Kotalampi<http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca>
montreal.kotalampi.com
This group is for those interested in AM (Broadcast Band) DXing, sponsored by 
the International Radio Club of America (IRCA) To see the collection of prior 
postings to the list, visit the IRCA Archives.(The current archive is only 
available to the list members.Using IRCA



>IRCA Info Page -
>Kotalampi<http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca>
>montreal.kotalampi.com
>This group is for those interested in AM (Broadcast Band) DXing,
>sponsored by the International Radio Club of America (IRCA) To see
>the collection of prior postings to the list, visit the IRCA
>Archives.(The current archive is only available to the list members.Using IRCA
>
>
>
>
>Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
>original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the
>IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
>
>For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
>
>To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
>
>
>___
>IRCA mailing list
>IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
>http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
>
>Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
>original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of
>the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
>
>For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
>
>To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
>
>___
>IRCA mailing list
>IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
>http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
>
>Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
>original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of
>the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
>
>For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
>
>To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Nick Hall-Patch
Victoria, BC
Canada

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Forrester S]

I'm trying to but I'm blasted with a lot of work right now and other
issues. Sigh, someday.

Todd Skaine
ICOM 7300 wth a Superloop
2 Modified 2010s barefoot
Toyota car radio

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 6:14 PM R. Colin Newell 
wrote:

> Begging pardon if I’m speaking out of turn - my FLAGS (45 x 27’) with
> WELLBROOK FLG100 heads have plenty of performance -
>
> One problem with “bigger” in the urban environment is — you’re amplifying
> noise along with signals.
>
> I wonder what is gained with a KAZ or DKAZ on city lots...
>
> Colin Newell - Victoria - B.C. CANADA -
>
> > On Oct 22, 2018, at 3:45 PM, C B  wrote:
> >
> > Kaz,
> > Thanks for taking the time to elaborate. I am trying to think outside of
> the box and see if I might be able to cram a 100 to 112 ft. DKAZ into the
> southern boundary of my city residential lot. Any longer and it would have
> to be anchored in the street. I doubt the city would appreciate that
> approach.
> > 73,
> >
> >
> > To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
> >
> ___
> IRCA mailing list
> IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
> http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
>
> Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
> original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the
> IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
>
> For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
>
> To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
>
>
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Nick Hall-Patch]

The DKaz does indeed deliver less signal to the receiver at the low 
end of the band.But does that mean that the DX signals approach 
the noise floor of the receiver with the 140 foot version?  Or are 
there also front to back issues that arise at well?


Thanks.

Nick





At 21:36 2018-10-23, Chuck Hutton wrote:
As do we all I think. The 140 foot version was abandoned over 5 
years ago as it wasn't cutting it at th low end.



Chuck



From: IRCA  on behalf of Mark 
Durenberger 

Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 2:13 PM
To: 'Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America'
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

Bill uses a "big" D-Kaz (160 ft)


Cheers!

Mark Durenberger

-Original Message-
From: IRCA  On Behalf Of C B via IRCA
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 3:38 PM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America

Cc: C B 
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
IRCA Info Page - 
Kotalampi<http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca>

montreal.kotalampi.com
This group is for those interested in AM (Broadcast Band) DXing, 
sponsored by the International Radio Club of America (IRCA) To see 
the collection of prior postings to the list, visit the IRCA 
Archives.(The current archive is only available to the list members.Using IRCA





Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the
IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com


___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the 
original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of 
the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers


For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the 
original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of 
the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers


For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com


Nick Hall-Patch
Victoria, BC
Canada 


___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Don Moman VE6JY]

http://www.durenberger.com/documents/DKAZ070314.pdf   is updated and still
shows the 140 foot version.  I don't see anything more recent I wish I
had. Is there a link?  I just built 4 of them last year, one for each major
direction. I finally have them all hooked up for this season. With the low
wire they are a great moose catcher!  I could have easily made them higher
but I was just following the instructions. I could have made them larger as
I have plenty of room. Now not so easy...
Don
VE6JY


On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 3:36 PM Chuck Hutton  wrote:

> As do we all I think. The 140 foot version was abandoned over 5 years ago
> as it wasn't cutting it at th low end.
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
> 
>
>
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Chuck Hutton]

As do we all I think. The 140 foot version was abandoned over 5 years ago as it 
wasn't cutting it at th low end.


Chuck



From: IRCA  on behalf of Mark Durenberger 

Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 2:13 PM
To: 'Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America'
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

Bill uses a "big" D-Kaz (160 ft)


Cheers!

Mark Durenberger

-Original Message-
From: IRCA  On Behalf Of C B via IRCA
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 3:38 PM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America

Cc: C B 
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
IRCA Info Page - Kotalampi<http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca>
montreal.kotalampi.com
This group is for those interested in AM (Broadcast Band) DXing, sponsored by 
the International Radio Club of America (IRCA) To see the collection of prior 
postings to the list, visit the IRCA Archives.(The current archive is only 
available to the list members.Using IRCA




Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the
IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com


___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Mark Durenberger]

Bill uses a "big" D-Kaz (160 ft)


Cheers!

Mark Durenberger

-Original Message-
From: IRCA  On Behalf Of C B via IRCA
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 3:38 PM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America

Cc: C B 
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the
IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com


___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[C B via IRCA]

--- Begin Message ---
 Interestingly, Bill Whitacre reported decent results all the way down to 531 
on his August DXpeditions to Grayland and Florence. He reported using a DKAZ.

AM Logs - Grayland, WA & Sans Souci


| 
| 
|  | 
AM Logs - Grayland, WA & Sans Souci


 |

 |

 |



Craig Barnes
On Tuesday, October 23, 2018, 1:33:24 PM MDT, Chuck Hutton 
 wrote:  
 
 Kaz -


You were at the Yachats DXpedition in 2013 where I believe everyone felt the 20 
x 140 DKAZ was somewhat deaf on the bottom end.

A recent 20 x 160 DKAZ yielded SDR files that one DXer is not even scanning 
below 700 kHz and I am not scanning below 800 kHz.

A DKAZ at Newfoundland last year produced more or less the same picture as the 
recent DKAZ.


All of this is substantiated by Perseus spectrums and theory which says there 
is a 27



From: IRCA  on behalf of Neil Kazaross 

Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 8:37 AM
To: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

A major advantage of the DKAZ is the significantly wider back null so that
more back end QRM is taken out or greatly reduced. Of course, the more
narrow beamwidth is very useful on crowded freqs and one reason I am able
to catch 2nd tier stations from west coast states here in IL.

Yeah, the don't have a ton of signal pickup at the low end, but logging 2CR
549 here in IL on Oct. 1 using only a 120 ft DKAZ should indicate a usable
antenna. Of course I amplify with the FLG100LN. Maybe sometime some DXer
with enough land will compare a 200ft+ DKAZ on the low end vs a more
typical size.

The problem with going huge is that high end F/B starts to suffer and the
beam also becomes wider in the upper part of the band. The DKAZ is a
compromise antenna and really not intended to cover a 3:1 bandwidth as well
as some of us would like. But the patterns and the DX I can log using it
put the single loop genre of antennas to shame at least here in IL.

Again I will stress amplification for any of the guys here considering
trying to squeeze in a smaller DKAZ.  73 KAZ

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 10:49 PM Chuck Hutton  wrote:

> So I think we think alike - the DKAZ is narrower (front and back) than a
> flag.
>
> A DKAZ is much more of a pain to put up, but in the end size pays off for
> those that appreciate the better antenna. (except at the bottom of the band)
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
> 
> From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick Hall-Patch <
> n...@ieee.org>
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 8:19 PM
> To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
> Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>
> Try this, Chuck (or anyone else who is having problems):
>
>
> http://www3.telus.net/public/shallpat/4all/Antenna%20alternatives_stub-re-FlagDKaz.pdf
>
> As the file name says, it's just the relevant
> slides of the presentation.  Pages 10, 11 and 12
> are repeated pages with more detail, just like
> the presentation, but makes for strange reading.
>
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
> At 01:47 2018-10-23, Chuck Hutton wrote:
> >Nick:
> >
> >
> >I tried to open the file with PowerPoint 2017
> >but got a string of error messages about missing dll's.
> >
> >
> >Any chance of a 1 paragraph summary? (Sorry to sound like management)
> >
> >
> >Chuck
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >________________
> >From: IRCA  on
> >behalf of Nick Hall-Patch 
> >Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 5:39 PM
> >To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America; C B
> >Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
> >
> >
> >
> >Not wishing to blow the personal horn, but please check out:
> >
> >http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx
> >The DXFishbarrel -
> >durenberger.com<http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx>
> >durenberger.com
> >Antenna Alternatives -- really? Is a
> >non-resonant terminated loop an alternative to a
> >DKaz? All non-resonant terminated loops give
> >much the same depth of nulls to stations off the back end of the antenna..
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >starting at slide 34, for a comparison of the
> >DKaz with a Flag at Grayland. (presentation from the 2016 IRCA convention)
> >
> >Unless you have Quicktime on the computer you're
> >using, you may not be able to play slide 37, but
> >it's not radically important to the overall comparison.
> >
> >best wishes,
> >
> >Nick
> >
> >
> > >Begging pardon if I’m speaking out of turn - my
> > >FLAGS (45 x 27’) with WELLBROOK FLG100 heads have plenty of performance
> -
> > >
> > >One problem with “bigger” in the urban
> >

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Chuck Hutton]

Kaz -


You were at the Yachats DXpedition in 2013 where I believe everyone felt the 20 
x 140 DKAZ was somewhat deaf on the bottom end.

A recent 20 x 160 DKAZ yielded SDR files that one DXer is not even scanning 
below 700 kHz and I am not scanning below 800 kHz.

A DKAZ at Newfoundland last year produced more or less the same picture as the 
recent DKAZ.


All of this is substantiated by Perseus spectrums and theory which says there 
is a 27



From: IRCA  on behalf of Neil Kazaross 

Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 8:37 AM
To: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

A major advantage of the DKAZ is the significantly wider back null so that
more back end QRM is taken out or greatly reduced. Of course, the more
narrow beamwidth is very useful on crowded freqs and one reason I am able
to catch 2nd tier stations from west coast states here in IL.

Yeah, the don't have a ton of signal pickup at the low end, but logging 2CR
549 here in IL on Oct. 1 using only a 120 ft DKAZ should indicate a usable
antenna. Of course I amplify with the FLG100LN. Maybe sometime some DXer
with enough land will compare a 200ft+ DKAZ on the low end vs a more
typical size.

The problem with going huge is that high end F/B starts to suffer and the
beam also becomes wider in the upper part of the band. The DKAZ is a
compromise antenna and really not intended to cover a 3:1 bandwidth as well
as some of us would like. But the patterns and the DX I can log using it
put the single loop genre of antennas to shame at least here in IL.

Again I will stress amplification for any of the guys here considering
trying to squeeze in a smaller DKAZ.  73 KAZ

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 10:49 PM Chuck Hutton  wrote:

> So I think we think alike - the DKAZ is narrower (front and back) than a
> flag.
>
> A DKAZ is much more of a pain to put up, but in the end size pays off for
> those that appreciate the better antenna. (except at the bottom of the band)
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
> 
> From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick Hall-Patch <
> n...@ieee.org>
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 8:19 PM
> To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
> Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>
> Try this, Chuck (or anyone else who is having problems):
>
>
> http://www3.telus.net/public/shallpat/4all/Antenna%20alternatives_stub-re-FlagDKaz.pdf
>
> As the file name says, it's just the relevant
> slides of the presentation.   Pages 10, 11 and 12
> are repeated pages with more detail, just like
> the presentation, but makes for strange reading.
>
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
> At 01:47 2018-10-23, Chuck Hutton wrote:
> >Nick:
> >
> >
> >I tried to open the file with PowerPoint 2017
> >but got a string of error messages about missing dll's.
> >
> >
> >Any chance of a 1 paragraph summary? (Sorry to sound like management)
> >
> >
> >Chuck
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >____________________
> >From: IRCA  on
> >behalf of Nick Hall-Patch 
> >Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 5:39 PM
> >To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America; C B
> >Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
> >
> >
> >
> >Not wishing to blow the personal horn, but please check out:
> >
> >http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx
> >The DXFishbarrel -
> >durenberger.com<http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx>
> >durenberger.com
> >Antenna Alternatives -- really? Is a
> >non-resonant terminated loop an alternative to a
> >DKaz? All non-resonant terminated loops give
> >much the same depth of nulls to stations off the back end of the antenna..
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >starting at slide 34, for a comparison of the
> >DKaz with a Flag at Grayland. (presentation from the 2016 IRCA convention)
> >
> >Unless you have Quicktime on the computer you're
> >using, you may not be able to play slide 37, but
> >it's not radically important to the overall comparison.
> >
> >best wishes,
> >
> >Nick
> >
> >
> > >Begging pardon if I’m speaking out of turn - my
> > >FLAGS (45 x 27’) with WELLBROOK FLG100 heads have plenty of performance
> -
> > >
> > >One problem with “bigger” in the urban
> > >environment is — you’re amplifying noise along with siignals.
> > >
> > >I wonder what is gained with a KAZ or DKAZ on city lots...
> >
> >Colin Newell - Victoria - B.C. CANADA -
> >At 23:14 2018-10-22, R. Colin Newell wrote:
> >
> > >Begging pardon if I’m speaking out of turn - my
> > >FLAGS (45 x 2

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Mark Durenberger]

Again...(if I can get the thing published)...I did some evaluation of
performance for a return wire at 0, 1, 2 and 3 feet.  By the 3 feet the rate
of diminishing returns suggested there's no point in going higher.

If on the other hand you could elevate the ENTIRE assembly by "x" feet?
That might be worth pursuing...


Cheers!

Mark Durenberger


-Original Message-
From: IRCA  On Behalf Of Mark Pettifor
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 1:51 PM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America

Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

I agree - good discussion! Especially for antenna newbies like myself. I
hope you veterans never get tired of going over well-traveled territory in
open discussion groups like the IRCA list.

What's great about hobbies like this is that you can go in as deep as you
want, and no matter what depth you are at, you can find enjoyment!

Quick question on the DKAZ: Has anyone ever had one "up in the air"? 
That is, same dimension as usual, but with the bottom wire 6 feet above the
ground instead of the usual 2 feet? (Which means the top supports would be
higher as well, to maintain the overall shape.) I have room for another
DKAZ, but the bottom wire would cross over a footpath. If I could raise it 4
or 5 feet higher, then people could cross under it. (By "people" I mean just
myself, and my brother, since the footpath goes through the treeline between
our houses.)

Mark Pettifor
Goshen, IN

On 2018-10-23 2:02 pm, R. Colin Newell wrote:
> My Flags are generally 27' H By 45-55' Rectangles with the remotely 
> variable termination attached to the centre of the vertical span 
> facing the direction I wish to reject - and the FLG100 head amp is 
> located in the Centre of the vertical span facing the DX.
> 
> I am assuming that this is the traditional configuration of a Flag or 
> "Pennant" antenna - If I'm wrong I stand corrected.
> 
> My FLG100 might not be exactly in the centre part of the DX Facing 
> vertical span NOR is the termination always dead centre -- AND it does 
> seem to work well with the variable remote termination (VACTROL) 
> closer to one corner - making it a SUPER LOOP is guess or a CORNER 
> FED.
> 
> Either way - works well in a decent sized sub-urban back yard.
> 
> Good learned discussion on the merits of each - I am very glad I asked! 
> :-)
> 
> 
>> 
>> Is it correct that your flag is really a corner fed loop of 27H x 45W?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> --
> Colin Newell - Editor and creator *of *Coffeecrew.com 
> <http://www.Coffeecrew.com> and DXer.ca <http://www.DXer.ca> - VA7WWV 
> | Twitter @CoffeeCrew | Victoria - Canada 
> ___
> IRCA mailing list
> IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
> http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
> 
> Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the 
> original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of 
> the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
> 
> For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
> 
> To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the
IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Mark Pettifor]

I agree - good discussion! Especially for antenna newbies like myself. I 
hope you veterans never get tired of going over well-traveled territory 
in open discussion groups like the IRCA list.


What's great about hobbies like this is that you can go in as deep as 
you want, and no matter what depth you are at, you can find enjoyment!


Quick question on the DKAZ: Has anyone ever had one "up in the air"? 
That is, same dimension as usual, but with the bottom wire 6 feet above 
the ground instead of the usual 2 feet? (Which means the top supports 
would be higher as well, to maintain the overall shape.) I have room for 
another DKAZ, but the bottom wire would cross over a footpath. If I 
could raise it 4 or 5 feet higher, then people could cross under it. (By 
"people" I mean just myself, and my brother, since the footpath goes 
through the treeline between our houses.)


Mark Pettifor
Goshen, IN

On 2018-10-23 2:02 pm, R. Colin Newell wrote:

My Flags are generally 27' H By 45-55' Rectangles with the remotely
variable termination attached to the centre of the vertical span facing 
the

direction I wish to reject -
and the FLG100 head amp is located in the Centre of the vertical span
facing the DX.

I am assuming that this is the traditional configuration of a Flag or
"Pennant" antenna - If I'm wrong I stand corrected.

My FLG100 might not be exactly in the centre part of the DX Facing 
vertical
span NOR is the termination always dead centre -- AND it does seem to 
work
well with the variable remote termination (VACTROL) closer to one 
corner -

making it a SUPER LOOP is guess or a CORNER FED.

Either way - works well in a decent sized sub-urban back yard.

Good learned discussion on the merits of each - I am very glad I asked! 
:-)





Is it correct that your flag is really a corner fed loop of 27H x 45W?






--
Colin Newell - Editor and creator *of *Coffeecrew.com
 and DXer.ca  -
VA7WWV | Twitter @CoffeeCrew | Victoria - Canada
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of
the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[R. Colin Newell]

My Flags are generally 27' H By 45-55' Rectangles with the remotely
variable termination attached to the centre of the vertical span facing the
direction I wish to reject -
and the FLG100 head amp is located in the Centre of the vertical span
facing the DX.

I am assuming that this is the traditional configuration of a Flag or
"Pennant" antenna - If I'm wrong I stand corrected.

My FLG100 might not be exactly in the centre part of the DX Facing vertical
span NOR is the termination always dead centre -- AND it does seem to work
well with the variable remote termination (VACTROL) closer to one corner -
making it a SUPER LOOP is guess or a CORNER FED.

Either way - works well in a decent sized sub-urban back yard.

Good learned discussion on the merits of each - I am very glad I asked! :-)


>
> Is it correct that your flag is really a corner fed loop of 27H x 45W?
>
>
>
>

-- 
Colin Newell - Editor and creator *of *Coffeecrew.com
 and DXer.ca  -
VA7WWV | Twitter @CoffeeCrew | Victoria - Canada
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Mark Durenberger]

In Northern MN we seemed to have a lot of summer 2018 days with some amount of 
daytime skywave.  In a lot of my measurements it was hard to record 
representative signal levels when we got near 1500 and went beyond.  (We were 
90 miles or more from the only useful back-side signals: 1500, 1530, 1570 and 
1600).  

The temptation was to watch for a minute and grab the highest signal rise...but 
that wouldn't necessarily be accurate either.


Cheers!

Mark Durenberger


-Original Message-
From: IRCA  On Behalf Of Neil Kazaross
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 11:29 AM
To: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

Thx Mark, can't wait to see what you found. I hope you were still able to crush 
KSTP 1500 in back null while still having good nulls elsewhere with a fixed 
Vactrol setting using 170 ft.

73 KAZ

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:26 AM Mark Durenberger 
wrote:

> I'll be publishing work on the comparison between a 140-foot and a 
> 170-foot DKAZ, data taken this summer.
>
>
> Cheers!
>
> Mark Durenberger
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IRCA  On Behalf Of Neil Kazaross
> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 10:38 AM
> To: irca@hard-core-dx.com
> Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>
> A major advantage of the DKAZ is the significantly wider back null so 
> that more back end QRM is taken out or greatly reduced. Of course, the 
> more narrow beamwidth is very useful on crowded freqs and one reason I 
> am able to catch 2nd tier stations from west coast states here in IL.
>
> Yeah, the don't have a ton of signal pickup at the low end, but 
> logging 2CR
> 549 here in IL on Oct. 1 using only a 120 ft DKAZ should indicate a 
> usable antenna. Of course I amplify with the FLG100LN. Maybe sometime 
> some DXer with enough land will compare a 200ft+ DKAZ on the low end 
> vs a more typical size.
>
> The problem with going huge is that high end F/B starts to suffer and 
> the beam also becomes wider in the upper part of the band. The DKAZ is 
> a compromise antenna and really not intended to cover a 3:1 bandwidth 
> as well as some of us would like. But the patterns and the DX I can 
> log using it put the single loop genre of antennas to shame at least here in 
> IL.
>
> Again I will stress amplification for any of the guys here considering 
> trying to squeeze in a smaller DKAZ.  73 KAZ
>
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 10:49 PM Chuck Hutton  wrote:
>
> > So I think we think alike - the DKAZ is narrower (front and back) 
> > than a flag.
> >
> > A DKAZ is much more of a pain to put up, but in the end size pays 
> > off for those that appreciate the better antenna. (except at the 
> > bottom of the band)
> >
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> >
> > 
> > From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick 
> > Hall-Patch < n...@ieee.org>
> > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 8:19 PM
> > To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
> > Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
> >
> > Try this, Chuck (or anyone else who is having problems):
> >
> >
> > http://www3.telus.net/public/shallpat/4all/Antenna%20alternatives_st
> > ub
> > -re-FlagDKaz.pdf
> >
> > As the file name says, it's just the relevant
> > slides of the presentation.   Pages 10, 11 and 12
> > are repeated pages with more detail, just like the presentation, but 
> > makes for strange reading.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Nick
> >
> >
> > At 01:47 2018-10-23, Chuck Hutton wrote:
> > >Nick:
> > >
> > >
> > >I tried to open the file with PowerPoint 2017 but got a string of 
> > >error messages about missing dll's.
> > >
> > >
> > >Any chance of a 1 paragraph summary? (Sorry to sound like 
> > >management)
> > >
> > >
> > >Chuck
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick 
> > >Hall-Patch 
> > >Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 5:39 PM
> > >To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America; C B
> > >Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Not wishing to blow the personal horn, but please check out:
> > >
> > >http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx
> > >The DXFishbarrel -
> > >durenberger.com<http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx>
> > >durenberger.com
> > >Antenna Alternatives -- really? Is a non-resonant terminated loop 
> > >an alternative to a DKaz? All non-resonant terminat

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Mark Durenberger]

One of the take-aways from our St Louis tech-talks was that the D-Kaz has a
wider bandwidth when it comes to suppression.  

I've seen nice deep nulls with a Flag...on a specific frequency...but would
have to re-null on other channels.  Whereas the D-Kaz in my experience is a
"set-and-forget" antenna when properly installed.  Null for one frequency,
and that same null-setting usually works for almost all the other
frequencies.


Cheers!

Mark Durenberger

-Original Message-
From: IRCA  On Behalf Of Guy Atkins
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 11:37 AM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America

Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

Hi Nick,

The best F/B of any phased antenna I've experienced at the coast was Dallas
Lankford's Quad Delta Flag Array (QDFA). I know you're quite familiar with
this, but some others on the IRCA list may not be. Here is an archived link
to Dallas' article on this antenna:

http://web.archive.org/web/20100921085637fw_/http://kongsfjord.no/dl/Antenna
s/Phased%20Delta%20Flag%20Arrays%20rev%2010.pdf

I worked with Dallas in 2009 to get his design tested and operational at
Grayland. Once we got a few bugs out of this complicated design, the result
was phenomenal. Check out the pattern on page 3 of the PDF and you'll see
why domestic inland DX at sunrise was knocked down to a degree I'd never
experienced before or since.

This four loop, phased antenna system is NOT DXpedition friendly. Because of
the complexity it's best for a permanent installation. I know that Bjarne
Mjelde also installed a QDFA some years ago but I don't know if it's still
operational.

73,

Guy Atkins
Puyallup, WA

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 8:42 AM Nick Hall-Patch  wrote:

> For the coastal DXer, I think that the takeaway from the presentation 
> was that the really important thing is not so much the response from 
> the two quadrants facing out over the ocean, but rather, the two 
> quadrants facing the domestic interference.
>
> The DKaz has a narrower beam, but often the MW DXer wants to hear 
> whatever the conditions deliver, whether it be New Zealand or Siberia, 
> so
> a narrow beam is not always an advantage.   But
> ideally, don't you really want zero signal from the two quadrants 
> facing inland?  The DX is out there, but in a realistic situation, 
> often it is hard to (impossible?) to read due to domestic splatter.
>
> Where the DKaz really shines then is in those two quadrants facing 
> inland.  It delivers less signal from those two quadrants than the 
> Flag does, so the DX is more readable.
>
> For an inland DXer, the narrower beam will be more an advantage, 
> because it will lessen interference in the forward direction,  but 
> probably it is still better to place its back side to minimize the 
> overall interference level, because the beam width is still wide 
> enough to inhale a fair bit of DX, .  Craig's 260 degree proposed 
> direction should be ideal for down under, and still hear Japan pretty 
> well with that
> 100 degree beam width.  Hopefully, it
> incidentally nulls a lot of domestic interference as well.
>
>
> Nick
>
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the
IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Guy Atkins]

Hi Nick,

The best F/B of any phased antenna I've experienced at the coast was Dallas
Lankford's Quad Delta Flag Array (QDFA). I know you're quite familiar with
this, but some others on the IRCA list may not be. Here is an archived link
to Dallas' article on this antenna:

http://web.archive.org/web/20100921085637fw_/http://kongsfjord.no/dl/Antennas/Phased%20Delta%20Flag%20Arrays%20rev%2010.pdf

I worked with Dallas in 2009 to get his design tested and operational at
Grayland. Once we got a few bugs out of this complicated design, the result
was phenomenal. Check out the pattern on page 3 of the PDF and you'll see
why domestic inland DX at sunrise was knocked down to a degree I'd never
experienced before or since.

This four loop, phased antenna system is NOT DXpedition friendly. Because
of the complexity it's best for a permanent installation. I know that
Bjarne Mjelde also installed a QDFA some years ago but I don't know if it's
still operational.

73,

Guy Atkins
Puyallup, WA

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 8:42 AM Nick Hall-Patch  wrote:

> For the coastal DXer, I think that the takeaway
> from the presentation was that the really
> important thing is not so much the response from
> the two quadrants facing out over the ocean, but
> rather, the two quadrants facing the domestic interference.
>
> The DKaz has a narrower beam, but often the MW
> DXer wants to hear whatever the conditions
> deliver, whether it be New Zealand or Siberia, so
> a narrow beam is not always an advantage.   But
> ideally, don't you really want zero signal from
> the two quadrants facing inland?  The DX is out
> there, but in a realistic situation, often it is
> hard to (impossible?) to read due to domestic splatter.
>
> Where the DKaz really shines then is in those two
> quadrants facing inland.  It delivers less signal
> from those two quadrants than the Flag does, so the DX is more readable.
>
> For an inland DXer, the narrower beam will be
> more an advantage, because it will lessen
> interference in the forward direction,  but
> probably it is still better to place its back
> side to minimize the overall interference level,
> because the beam width is still wide enough to
> inhale a fair bit of DX, .  Craig's 260 degree
> proposed direction should be ideal for down
> under, and still hear Japan pretty well with that
> 100 degree beam width.  Hopefully, it
> incidentally nulls a lot of domestic interference as well.
>
>
> Nick
>
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Neil Kazaross]

Thx Mark, can't wait to see what you found. I hope you were still able to
crush KSTP 1500 in back null while still having good nulls elsewhere with a
fixed Vactrol setting using 170 ft.

73 KAZ

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:26 AM Mark Durenberger 
wrote:

> I'll be publishing work on the comparison between a 140-foot and a
> 170-foot DKAZ, data taken this summer.
>
>
> Cheers!
>
> Mark Durenberger
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IRCA  On Behalf Of Neil Kazaross
> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 10:38 AM
> To: irca@hard-core-dx.com
> Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>
> A major advantage of the DKAZ is the significantly wider back null so that
> more back end QRM is taken out or greatly reduced. Of course, the more
> narrow beamwidth is very useful on crowded freqs and one reason I am able
> to catch 2nd tier stations from west coast states here in IL.
>
> Yeah, the don't have a ton of signal pickup at the low end, but logging 2CR
> 549 here in IL on Oct. 1 using only a 120 ft DKAZ should indicate a usable
> antenna. Of course I amplify with the FLG100LN. Maybe sometime some DXer
> with enough land will compare a 200ft+ DKAZ on the low end vs a more
> typical size.
>
> The problem with going huge is that high end F/B starts to suffer and the
> beam also becomes wider in the upper part of the band. The DKAZ is a
> compromise antenna and really not intended to cover a 3:1 bandwidth as well
> as some of us would like. But the patterns and the DX I can log using it
> put the single loop genre of antennas to shame at least here in IL.
>
> Again I will stress amplification for any of the guys here considering
> trying to squeeze in a smaller DKAZ.  73 KAZ
>
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 10:49 PM Chuck Hutton  wrote:
>
> > So I think we think alike - the DKAZ is narrower (front and back) than
> > a flag.
> >
> > A DKAZ is much more of a pain to put up, but in the end size pays off
> > for those that appreciate the better antenna. (except at the bottom of
> > the band)
> >
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> >
> > 
> > From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick
> > Hall-Patch < n...@ieee.org>
> > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 8:19 PM
> > To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
> > Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
> >
> > Try this, Chuck (or anyone else who is having problems):
> >
> >
> > http://www3.telus.net/public/shallpat/4all/Antenna%20alternatives_stub
> > -re-FlagDKaz.pdf
> >
> > As the file name says, it's just the relevant
> > slides of the presentation.   Pages 10, 11 and 12
> > are repeated pages with more detail, just like the presentation, but
> > makes for strange reading.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Nick
> >
> >
> > At 01:47 2018-10-23, Chuck Hutton wrote:
> > >Nick:
> > >
> > >
> > >I tried to open the file with PowerPoint 2017 but got a string of
> > >error messages about missing dll's.
> > >
> > >
> > >Any chance of a 1 paragraph summary? (Sorry to sound like management)
> > >
> > >
> > >Chuck
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick
> > >Hall-Patch 
> > >Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 5:39 PM
> > >To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America; C B
> > >Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Not wishing to blow the personal horn, but please check out:
> > >
> > >http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx
> > >The DXFishbarrel -
> > >durenberger.com<http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx>
> > >durenberger.com
> > >Antenna Alternatives -- really? Is a
> > >non-resonant terminated loop an alternative to a DKaz? All
> > >non-resonant terminated loops give much the same depth of nulls to
> > >stations off the back end of the antenna..
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >starting at slide 34, for a comparison of the DKaz with a Flag at
> > >Grayland. (presentation from the 2016 IRCA convention)
> > >
> > >Unless you have Quicktime on the computer you're using, you may not
> > >be able to play slide 37, but it's not radically important to the
> > >overall comparison.
> > >
> > >best wishes,
> > >
> > >Nick
> > >
> > >
> > > >Begging pardon if I’m speaking out of turn - my FLAGS 

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Mark Durenberger]

I'll be publishing work on the comparison between a 140-foot and a 170-foot 
DKAZ, data taken this summer.


Cheers!

Mark Durenberger

-Original Message-
From: IRCA  On Behalf Of Neil Kazaross
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 10:38 AM
To: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

A major advantage of the DKAZ is the significantly wider back null so that more 
back end QRM is taken out or greatly reduced. Of course, the more narrow 
beamwidth is very useful on crowded freqs and one reason I am able to catch 2nd 
tier stations from west coast states here in IL.

Yeah, the don't have a ton of signal pickup at the low end, but logging 2CR
549 here in IL on Oct. 1 using only a 120 ft DKAZ should indicate a usable 
antenna. Of course I amplify with the FLG100LN. Maybe sometime some DXer with 
enough land will compare a 200ft+ DKAZ on the low end vs a more typical size.

The problem with going huge is that high end F/B starts to suffer and the beam 
also becomes wider in the upper part of the band. The DKAZ is a compromise 
antenna and really not intended to cover a 3:1 bandwidth as well as some of us 
would like. But the patterns and the DX I can log using it put the single loop 
genre of antennas to shame at least here in IL.

Again I will stress amplification for any of the guys here considering trying 
to squeeze in a smaller DKAZ.  73 KAZ

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 10:49 PM Chuck Hutton  wrote:

> So I think we think alike - the DKAZ is narrower (front and back) than 
> a flag.
>
> A DKAZ is much more of a pain to put up, but in the end size pays off 
> for those that appreciate the better antenna. (except at the bottom of 
> the band)
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
> 
> From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick 
> Hall-Patch < n...@ieee.org>
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 8:19 PM
> To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
> Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>
> Try this, Chuck (or anyone else who is having problems):
>
>
> http://www3.telus.net/public/shallpat/4all/Antenna%20alternatives_stub
> -re-FlagDKaz.pdf
>
> As the file name says, it's just the relevant
> slides of the presentation.   Pages 10, 11 and 12
> are repeated pages with more detail, just like the presentation, but 
> makes for strange reading.
>
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
> At 01:47 2018-10-23, Chuck Hutton wrote:
> >Nick:
> >
> >
> >I tried to open the file with PowerPoint 2017 but got a string of 
> >error messages about missing dll's.
> >
> >
> >Any chance of a 1 paragraph summary? (Sorry to sound like management)
> >
> >
> >Chuck
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >________________
> >From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick 
> >Hall-Patch 
> >Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 5:39 PM
> >To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America; C B
> >Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
> >
> >
> >
> >Not wishing to blow the personal horn, but please check out:
> >
> >http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx
> >The DXFishbarrel -
> >durenberger.com<http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx>
> >durenberger.com
> >Antenna Alternatives -- really? Is a
> >non-resonant terminated loop an alternative to a DKaz? All 
> >non-resonant terminated loops give much the same depth of nulls to 
> >stations off the back end of the antenna..
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >starting at slide 34, for a comparison of the DKaz with a Flag at 
> >Grayland. (presentation from the 2016 IRCA convention)
> >
> >Unless you have Quicktime on the computer you're using, you may not 
> >be able to play slide 37, but it's not radically important to the 
> >overall comparison.
> >
> >best wishes,
> >
> >Nick
> >
> >
> > >Begging pardon if I’m speaking out of turn - my FLAGS (45 x 27’) 
> > >with WELLBROOK FLG100 heads have plenty of performance
> -
> > >
> > >One problem with “bigger” in the urban environment is — you’re 
> > >amplifying noise along with siignals.
> > >
> > >I wonder what is gained with a KAZ or DKAZ on city lots...
> >
> >Colin Newell - Victoria - B.C. CANADA - At 23:14 2018-10-22, R. Colin 
> >Newell wrote:
> >
> > >Begging pardon if I’m speaking out of turn - my FLAGS (45 x 27’) 
> > >with WELLBROOK FLG100 heads have plenty of performance
> -
> > >
> > >One problem with “bigger” in the urban environment is — you’re 
> > >amplifying noise along with siignals.
> > >
> > >

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Chuck Hutton]

That's exactly why my coastal antennas are always 270 degrees.  That places 
Seatt;e and Portland at about 45 degrees off the back and therefore both get a 
decent null.


The narrower beam of the DKAZ can also help at coastal locations. In 
Newfoundland, it is nice  to not hear Spain well and allow Africans to sneak 
through. At Grayland, I really don't care much about hearing DU's in October as 
they are way better in July/August.


Chuck




From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick Hall-Patch 

Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 8:42 AM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

For the coastal DXer, I think that the takeaway
from the presentation was that the really
important thing is not so much the response from
the two quadrants facing out over the ocean, but
rather, the two quadrants facing the domestic interference.

The DKaz has a narrower beam, but often the MW
DXer wants to hear whatever the conditions
deliver, whether it be New Zealand or Siberia, so
a narrow beam is not always an advantage.   But
ideally, don't you really want zero signal from
the two quadrants facing inland?  The DX is out
there, but in a realistic situation, often it is
hard to (impossible?) to read due to domestic splatter.

Where the DKaz really shines then is in those two
quadrants facing inland.  It delivers less signal
from those two quadrants than the Flag does, so the DX is more readable.

For an inland DXer, the narrower beam will be
more an advantage, because it will lessen
interference in the forward direction,  but
probably it is still better to place its back
side to minimize the overall interference level,
because the beam width is still wide enough to
inhale a fair bit of DX, .  Craig's 260 degree
proposed direction should be ideal for down
under, and still hear Japan pretty well with that
100 degree beam width.  Hopefully, it
incidentally nulls a lot of domestic interference as well.


Nick


At 03:49 2018-10-23, Chuck Hutton wrote:
>So I think we think alike - the DKAZ is narrower (front and back) than a flag.
>
>A DKAZ is much more of a pain to put up, but in
>the end size pays off for those that appreciate
>the better antenna. (except at the bottom of the band)
>
>
>Chuck
>
>
>
>From: IRCA  on
>behalf of Nick Hall-Patch 
>Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 8:19 PM
>To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
>Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>
>Try this, Chuck (or anyone else who is having problems):
>
>http://www3.telus.net/public/shallpat/4all/Antenna%20alternatives_stub-re-FlagDKaz.pdf
>
>As the file name says, it's just the relevant
>slides of the presentation.   Pages 10, 11 and 12
>are repeated pages with more detail, just like
>the presentation, but makes for strange reading.
>
>
>
>
>Nick
>
>
>At 01:47 2018-10-23, Chuck Hutton wrote:
> >Nick:
> >
> >
> >I tried to open the file with PowerPoint 2017
> >but got a string of error messages about missing dll's.
> >
> >
> >Any chance of a 1 paragraph summary? (Sorry to sound like management)
> >
> >
> >Chuck
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >________________
> >From: IRCA  on
> >behalf of Nick Hall-Patch 
> >Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 5:39 PM
> >To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America; C B
> >Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
> >
> >
> >
> >Not wishing to blow the personal horn, but please check out:
> >
> >http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx
> >The DXFishbarrel -
> >durenberger.com<http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx>
> >durenberger.com
> >Antenna Alternatives -- really? Is a
> >non-resonant terminated loop an alternative to a
> >DKaz? All non-resonant terminated loops give
> >much the same depth of nulls to stations off the back end of the antenna..
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >starting at slide 34, for a comparison of the
> >DKaz with a Flag at Grayland. (presentation from the 2016 IRCA convention)
> >
> >Unless you have Quicktime on the computer you're
> >using, you may not be able to play slide 37, but
> >it's not radically important to the overall comparison.
> >
> >best wishes,
> >
> >Nick
> >
> >
> > >Begging pardon if I’m speaking out of turn - my
> > >FLAGS (45 x 27’) with WELLBROOK FLG100 heads have plenty of performance -
> > >
> > >One problem with “bigger” in the urban
> > >environment is — you’re amplifying noise along with siignals.
> > >
> > >I wonder what is gained with a KAZ or DKAZ on city lots.

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Nick Hall-Patch]

For the coastal DXer, I think that the takeaway 
from the presentation was that the really 
important thing is not so much the response from 
the two quadrants facing out over the ocean, but 
rather, the two quadrants facing the domestic interference.


The DKaz has a narrower beam, but often the MW 
DXer wants to hear whatever the conditions 
deliver, whether it be New Zealand or Siberia, so 
a narrow beam is not always an advantage.   But 
ideally, don't you really want zero signal from 
the two quadrants facing inland?  The DX is out 
there, but in a realistic situation, often it is 
hard to (impossible?) to read due to domestic splatter.


Where the DKaz really shines then is in those two 
quadrants facing inland.  It delivers less signal 
from those two quadrants than the Flag does, so the DX is more readable.


For an inland DXer, the narrower beam will be 
more an advantage, because it will lessen 
interference in the forward direction,  but 
probably it is still better to place its back 
side to minimize the overall interference level, 
because the beam width is still wide enough to 
inhale a fair bit of DX, .  Craig's 260 degree 
proposed direction should be ideal for down 
under, and still hear Japan pretty well with that 
100 degree beam width.  Hopefully, it 
incidentally nulls a lot of domestic interference as well.



Nick


At 03:49 2018-10-23, Chuck Hutton wrote:

So I think we think alike - the DKAZ is narrower (front and back) than a flag.

A DKAZ is much more of a pain to put up, but in 
the end size pays off for those that appreciate 
the better antenna. (except at the bottom of the band)



Chuck



From: IRCA  on 
behalf of Nick Hall-Patch 

Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 8:19 PM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

Try this, Chuck (or anyone else who is having problems):

http://www3.telus.net/public/shallpat/4all/Antenna%20alternatives_stub-re-FlagDKaz.pdf

As the file name says, it's just the relevant
slides of the presentation.   Pages 10, 11 and 12
are repeated pages with more detail, just like
the presentation, but makes for strange reading.




Nick


At 01:47 2018-10-23, Chuck Hutton wrote:
>Nick:
>
>
>I tried to open the file with PowerPoint 2017
>but got a string of error messages about missing dll's.
>
>
>Any chance of a 1 paragraph summary? (Sorry to sound like management)
>
>
>Chuck
>
>
>
>
>
>From: IRCA  on
>behalf of Nick Hall-Patch 
>Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 5:39 PM
>To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America; C B
>Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>
>
>
>Not wishing to blow the personal horn, but please check out:
>
>http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx
>The DXFishbarrel -
>durenberger.com<http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx>
>durenberger.com
>Antenna Alternatives -- really? Is a
>non-resonant terminated loop an alternative to a
>DKaz? All non-resonant terminated loops give
>much the same depth of nulls to stations off the back end of the antenna.
>
>
>
>
>starting at slide 34, for a comparison of the
>DKaz with a Flag at Grayland. (presentation from the 2016 IRCA convention)
>
>Unless you have Quicktime on the computer you're
>using, you may not be able to play slide 37, but
>it's not radically important to the overall comparison.
>
>best wishes,
>
>Nick
>
>
> >Begging pardon if I’m speaking out of turn - my
> >FLAGS (45 x 27’) with WELLBROOK FLG100 heads have plenty of performance -
> >
> >One problem with “bigger” in the urban
> >environment is — you’re amplifying noise along with siignals.
> >
> >I wonder what is gained with a KAZ or DKAZ on city lots...
>
>Colin Newell - Victoria - B.C. CANADA -
>At 23:14 2018-10-22, R. Colin Newell wrote:
>
> >Begging pardon if I’m speaking out of turn - my
> >FLAGS (45 x 27’) with WELLBROOK FLG100 heads have plenty of performance -
> >
> >One problem with “bigger” in the urban
> >environment is — you’re amplifying noise along with siignals.
> >
> >I wonder what is gained with a KAZ or DKAZ on city lots...
> >
> >Colin Newell - Victoria - B.C. CANADA -
>
>  > On Oct 22, 2018, at 3:45 PM, C B  wrote:
>  >
>  > Kaz,
>  > Thanks for taking the time to elaborate. I am
>trying to think outside of the box and see if I
>might be able to cram a 100 to 112 ft. DKAZ into
>the southern boundary of my city residential lot.
>Any longer and it would have to be anchored in
>the street. I doubt the city would appreciate that approach.
>  > 73,
>  >
>  >
>  > To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
>  >
>

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Neil Kazaross]

A major advantage of the DKAZ is the significantly wider back null so that
more back end QRM is taken out or greatly reduced. Of course, the more
narrow beamwidth is very useful on crowded freqs and one reason I am able
to catch 2nd tier stations from west coast states here in IL.

Yeah, the don't have a ton of signal pickup at the low end, but logging 2CR
549 here in IL on Oct. 1 using only a 120 ft DKAZ should indicate a usable
antenna. Of course I amplify with the FLG100LN. Maybe sometime some DXer
with enough land will compare a 200ft+ DKAZ on the low end vs a more
typical size.

The problem with going huge is that high end F/B starts to suffer and the
beam also becomes wider in the upper part of the band. The DKAZ is a
compromise antenna and really not intended to cover a 3:1 bandwidth as well
as some of us would like. But the patterns and the DX I can log using it
put the single loop genre of antennas to shame at least here in IL.

Again I will stress amplification for any of the guys here considering
trying to squeeze in a smaller DKAZ.  73 KAZ

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 10:49 PM Chuck Hutton  wrote:

> So I think we think alike - the DKAZ is narrower (front and back) than a
> flag.
>
> A DKAZ is much more of a pain to put up, but in the end size pays off for
> those that appreciate the better antenna. (except at the bottom of the band)
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
> 
> From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick Hall-Patch <
> n...@ieee.org>
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 8:19 PM
> To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
> Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>
> Try this, Chuck (or anyone else who is having problems):
>
>
> http://www3.telus.net/public/shallpat/4all/Antenna%20alternatives_stub-re-FlagDKaz.pdf
>
> As the file name says, it's just the relevant
> slides of the presentation.   Pages 10, 11 and 12
> are repeated pages with more detail, just like
> the presentation, but makes for strange reading.
>
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
> At 01:47 2018-10-23, Chuck Hutton wrote:
> >Nick:
> >
> >
> >I tried to open the file with PowerPoint 2017
> >but got a string of error messages about missing dll's.
> >
> >
> >Any chance of a 1 paragraph summary? (Sorry to sound like management)
> >
> >
> >Chuck
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >____________________
> >From: IRCA  on
> >behalf of Nick Hall-Patch 
> >Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 5:39 PM
> >To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America; C B
> >Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
> >
> >
> >
> >Not wishing to blow the personal horn, but please check out:
> >
> >http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx
> >The DXFishbarrel -
> >durenberger.com<http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx>
> >durenberger.com
> >Antenna Alternatives -- really? Is a
> >non-resonant terminated loop an alternative to a
> >DKaz? All non-resonant terminated loops give
> >much the same depth of nulls to stations off the back end of the antenna..
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >starting at slide 34, for a comparison of the
> >DKaz with a Flag at Grayland. (presentation from the 2016 IRCA convention)
> >
> >Unless you have Quicktime on the computer you're
> >using, you may not be able to play slide 37, but
> >it's not radically important to the overall comparison.
> >
> >best wishes,
> >
> >Nick
> >
> >
> > >Begging pardon if I’m speaking out of turn - my
> > >FLAGS (45 x 27’) with WELLBROOK FLG100 heads have plenty of performance
> -
> > >
> > >One problem with “bigger” in the urban
> > >environment is — you’re amplifying noise along with siignals.
> > >
> > >I wonder what is gained with a KAZ or DKAZ on city lots...
> >
> >Colin Newell - Victoria - B.C. CANADA -
> >At 23:14 2018-10-22, R. Colin Newell wrote:
> >
> > >Begging pardon if I’m speaking out of turn - my
> > >FLAGS (45 x 27’) with WELLBROOK FLG100 heads have plenty of performance
> -
> > >
> > >One problem with “bigger” in the urban
> > >environment is — you’re amplifying noise along with siignals.
> > >
> > >I wonder what is gained with a KAZ or DKAZ on city lots...
> > >
> > >Colin Newell - Victoria - B.C. CANADA -
> >
> >  > On Oct 22, 2018, at 3:45 PM, C B  wrote:
> >  >
> >  > Kaz,
> >  > Thanks for taking the time to elaborate. I am
> >trying to think outside of the box and see if I
> >might be able to cram a 100 to 112 ft. DKAZ into
>

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Chuck Hutton]

So I think we think alike - the DKAZ is narrower (front and back) than a flag.

A DKAZ is much more of a pain to put up, but in the end size pays off for those 
that appreciate the better antenna. (except at the bottom of the band)


Chuck



From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick Hall-Patch 

Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 8:19 PM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

Try this, Chuck (or anyone else who is having problems):

http://www3.telus.net/public/shallpat/4all/Antenna%20alternatives_stub-re-FlagDKaz.pdf

As the file name says, it's just the relevant
slides of the presentation.   Pages 10, 11 and 12
are repeated pages with more detail, just like
the presentation, but makes for strange reading.




Nick


At 01:47 2018-10-23, Chuck Hutton wrote:
>Nick:
>
>
>I tried to open the file with PowerPoint 2017
>but got a string of error messages about missing dll's.
>
>
>Any chance of a 1 paragraph summary? (Sorry to sound like management)
>
>
>Chuck
>
>
>
>
>
>From: IRCA  on
>behalf of Nick Hall-Patch 
>Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 5:39 PM
>To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America; C B
>Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag
>
>
>
>Not wishing to blow the personal horn, but please check out:
>
>http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx
>The DXFishbarrel -
>durenberger.com<http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx>
>durenberger.com
>Antenna Alternatives -- really? Is a
>non-resonant terminated loop an alternative to a
>DKaz? All non-resonant terminated loops give
>much the same depth of nulls to stations off the back end of the antenna.
>
>
>
>
>starting at slide 34, for a comparison of the
>DKaz with a Flag at Grayland. (presentation from the 2016 IRCA convention)
>
>Unless you have Quicktime on the computer you're
>using, you may not be able to play slide 37, but
>it's not radically important to the overall comparison.
>
>best wishes,
>
>Nick
>
>
> >Begging pardon if I’m speaking out of turn - my
> >FLAGS (45 x 27’) with WELLBROOK FLG100 heads have plenty of performance -
> >
> >One problem with “bigger” in the urban
> >environment is — you’re amplifying noise along with siignals.
> >
> >I wonder what is gained with a KAZ or DKAZ on city lots...
>
>Colin Newell - Victoria - B.C. CANADA -
>At 23:14 2018-10-22, R. Colin Newell wrote:
>
> >Begging pardon if I’m speaking out of turn - my
> >FLAGS (45 x 27’) with WELLBROOK FLG100 heads have plenty of performance -
> >
> >One problem with “bigger” in the urban
> >environment is — you’re amplifying noise along with siignals.
> >
> >I wonder what is gained with a KAZ or DKAZ on city lots...
> >
> >Colin Newell - Victoria - B.C. CANADA -
>
>  > On Oct 22, 2018, at 3:45 PM, C B  wrote:
>  >
>  > Kaz,
>  > Thanks for taking the time to elaborate. I am
>trying to think outside of the box and see if I
>might be able to cram a 100 to 112 ft. DKAZ into
>the southern boundary of my city residential lot.
>Any longer and it would have to be anchored in
>the street. I doubt the city would appreciate that approach.
>  > 73,
>  >
>  >
>  > To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
>  >
>___
>
>Nick Hall-Patch
>Victoria, BC
>Canada
>___
>IRCA mailing list
>IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
>http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
>
>Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing
>list are those of the original contributors and
>do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the
>IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
>
>For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
>
>To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
>
>___
>IRCA mailing list
>IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
>http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
>
>Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing
>list are those of the original contributors and
>do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the
>IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
>
>For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
>
>To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Nick Hall-Patch
Victoria, BC
Canada

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

F

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Nick Hall-Patch]

Try this, Chuck (or anyone else who is having problems):

http://www3.telus.net/public/shallpat/4all/Antenna%20alternatives_stub-re-FlagDKaz.pdf

As the file name says, it's just the relevant 
slides of the presentation.   Pages 10, 11 and 12 
are repeated pages with more detail, just like 
the presentation, but makes for strange reading.





Nick


At 01:47 2018-10-23, Chuck Hutton wrote:

Nick:


I tried to open the file with PowerPoint 2017 
but got a string of error messages about missing dll's.



Any chance of a 1 paragraph summary? (Sorry to sound like management)


Chuck





From: IRCA  on 
behalf of Nick Hall-Patch 

Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 5:39 PM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America; C B
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag



Not wishing to blow the personal horn, but please check out:

http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx
The DXFishbarrel - 
durenberger.com<http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx>

durenberger.com
Antenna Alternatives -- really? Is a 
non-resonant terminated loop an alternative to a 
DKaz? All non-resonant terminated loops give 
much the same depth of nulls to stations off the back end of the antenna.





starting at slide 34, for a comparison of the
DKaz with a Flag at Grayland. (presentation from the 2016 IRCA convention)

Unless you have Quicktime on the computer you're
using, you may not be able to play slide 37, but
it's not radically important to the overall comparison.

best wishes,

Nick


>Begging pardon if I’m speaking out of turn - my
>FLAGS (45 x 27’) with WELLBROOK FLG100 heads have plenty of performance -
>
>One problem with “bigger” in the urban
>environment is — you’re amplifying noise along with siignals.
>
>I wonder what is gained with a KAZ or DKAZ on city lots...

Colin Newell - Victoria - B.C. CANADA -
At 23:14 2018-10-22, R. Colin Newell wrote:

>Begging pardon if I’m speaking out of turn - my
>FLAGS (45 x 27’) with WELLBROOK FLG100 heads have plenty of performance -
>
>One problem with “bigger” in the urban
>environment is — you’re amplifying noise along with siignals.
>
>I wonder what is gained with a KAZ or DKAZ on city lots...
>
>Colin Newell - Victoria - B.C. CANADA -

 > On Oct 22, 2018, at 3:45 PM, C B  wrote:
 >
 > Kaz,
 > Thanks for taking the time to elaborate. I am
trying to think outside of the box and see if I
might be able to cram a 100 to 112 ft. DKAZ into
the southern boundary of my city residential lot.
Any longer and it would have to be anchored in
the street. I doubt the city would appreciate that approach.
 > 73,
 >
 >
 > To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
 >
___

Nick Hall-Patch
Victoria, BC
Canada
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing 
list are those of the original contributors and 
do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the 
IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers


For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing 
list are those of the original contributors and 
do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the 
IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers


For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com


Nick Hall-Patch
Victoria, BC
Canada 


___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[C B via IRCA]

--- Begin Message ---
 Nick, Colin,
Thanks for sending the PPT from the 2016 IRCA Convention. There's a lot of good 
information in that presentation. In response to Colin's comments: I understand 
your comments coming from a TP signal rich environment (except when I'm in town 
:-). Here in the TP hinterlands even decent signals from the big Japanese guns 
are not a given, let alone more unusual forms of TP DX. I am endeavoring to try 
a DKAZ in an effort to maximize the TP DX I can hear from a standard city lot. 
Pity I did not know about DKAZ antennas when I lived up in the mountains with 
more real estate to work with. I would have put one up forthwith. The BOG and 
EWE antennas I used at that location did work fairly well though. I appreciate 
the antenna discussion. I always have more to learn. There's also something 
about putting up a new antenna that stimulates anticipation of new DXing 
opportunities.
73 and Best of DX,
Craig BarnesWheat Ridge, COOn Monday, October 22, 2018, 7:47:10 PM MDT, 
Chuck Hutton  wrote:  
 
 Nick:


I tried to open the file with PowerPoint 2017 but got a string of error 
messages about missing dll's.


Any chance of a 1 paragraph summary? (Sorry to sound like management)


Chuck





From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick Hall-Patch 

Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 5:39 PM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America; C B
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag



Not wishing to blow the personal horn, but please check out:

http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx
The DXFishbarrel - 
durenberger.com<http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx>
durenberger.com
Antenna Alternatives -- really? Is a non-resonant terminated loop an 
alternative to a DKaz? All non-resonant terminated loops give much the same 
depth of nulls to stations off the back end of the antenna.




starting at slide 34, for a comparison of the
DKaz with a Flag at Grayland. (presentation from the 2016 IRCA convention)

Unless you have Quicktime on the computer you're
using, you may not be able to play slide 37, but
it's not radically important to the overall comparison.

best wishes,

Nick


>Begging pardon if I’m speaking out of turn - my
>FLAGS (45 x 27’) with WELLBROOK FLG100 heads have plenty of performance -
>
>One problem with “bigger” in the urban
>environment is — you’re amplifying noise along with siignals.
>
>I wonder what is gained with a KAZ or DKAZ on city lots...

Colin Newell - Victoria - B.C. CANADA -
At 23:14 2018-10-22, R. Colin Newell wrote:

>Begging pardon if I’m speaking out of turn - my
>FLAGS (45 x 27’) with WELLBROOK FLG100 heads have plenty of performance -
>
>One problem with “bigger” in the urban
>environment is — you’re amplifying noise along with siignals.
>
>I wonder what is gained with a KAZ or DKAZ on city lots...
>
>Colin Newell - Victoria - B.C. CANADA -

 > On Oct 22, 2018, at 3:45 PM, C B  wrote:
 >
 > Kaz,
 > Thanks for taking the time to elaborate. I am
trying to think outside of the box and see if I
might be able to cram a 100 to 112 ft. DKAZ into
the southern boundary of my city residential lot.
Any longer and it would have to be anchored in
the street. I doubt the city would appreciate that approach.
 > 73,
 >
 >
 > To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
 >
___

Nick Hall-Patch
Victoria, BC
Canada
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
  --- End Message ---
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Chuck Hutton]

Nick:


I tried to open the file with PowerPoint 2017 but got a string of error 
messages about missing dll's.


Any chance of a 1 paragraph summary? (Sorry to sound like management)


Chuck





From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick Hall-Patch 

Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 5:39 PM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America; C B
Subject: Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag



Not wishing to blow the personal horn, but please check out:

http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx
The DXFishbarrel - 
durenberger.com<http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx>
durenberger.com
Antenna Alternatives -- really? Is a non-resonant terminated loop an 
alternative to a DKaz? All non-resonant terminated loops give much the same 
depth of nulls to stations off the back end of the antenna.




starting at slide 34, for a comparison of the
DKaz with a Flag at Grayland. (presentation from the 2016 IRCA convention)

Unless you have Quicktime on the computer you're
using, you may not be able to play slide 37, but
it's not radically important to the overall comparison.

best wishes,

Nick


>Begging pardon if I’m speaking out of turn - my
>FLAGS (45 x 27’) with WELLBROOK FLG100 heads have plenty of performance -
>
>One problem with “bigger” in the urban
>environment is — you’re amplifying noise along with siignals.
>
>I wonder what is gained with a KAZ or DKAZ on city lots...

Colin Newell - Victoria - B.C. CANADA -
At 23:14 2018-10-22, R. Colin Newell wrote:

>Begging pardon if I’m speaking out of turn - my
>FLAGS (45 x 27’) with WELLBROOK FLG100 heads have plenty of performance -
>
>One problem with “bigger” in the urban
>environment is — you’re amplifying noise along with siignals.
>
>I wonder what is gained with a KAZ or DKAZ on city lots...
>
>Colin Newell - Victoria - B.C. CANADA -

 > On Oct 22, 2018, at 3:45 PM, C B  wrote:
 >
 > Kaz,
 > Thanks for taking the time to elaborate. I am
trying to think outside of the box and see if I
might be able to cram a 100 to 112 ft. DKAZ into
the southern boundary of my city residential lot.
Any longer and it would have to be anchored in
the street. I doubt the city would appreciate that approach.
 > 73,
 >
 >
 > To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
 >
___

Nick Hall-Patch
Victoria, BC
Canada
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Nick Hall-Patch]

Not wishing to blow the personal horn, but please check out:

http://durenberger.com/documents/NHP2016.pptx

starting at slide 34, for a comparison of the 
DKaz with a Flag at Grayland. (presentation from the 2016 IRCA convention)


Unless you have Quicktime on the computer you're 
using, you may not be able to play slide 37, but 
it's not radically important to the overall comparison.


best wishes,

Nick


Begging pardon if I’m speaking out of turn - my 
FLAGS (45 x 27’) with WELLBROOK FLG100 heads have plenty of performance -


One problem with “bigger” in the urban 
environment is — you’re amplifying noise along with siignals.


I wonder what is gained with a KAZ or DKAZ on city lots...


Colin Newell - Victoria - B.C. CANADA -
At 23:14 2018-10-22, R. Colin Newell wrote:

Begging pardon if I’m speaking out of turn - my 
FLAGS (45 x 27’) with WELLBROOK FLG100 heads have plenty of performance -


One problem with “bigger” in the urban 
environment is — you’re amplifying noise along with siignals.


I wonder what is gained with a KAZ or DKAZ on city lots...

Colin Newell - Victoria - B.C. CANADA -


> On Oct 22, 2018, at 3:45 PM, C B  wrote:
>
> Kaz,
> Thanks for taking the time to elaborate. I am 
trying to think outside of the box and see if I 
might be able to cram a 100 to 112 ft. DKAZ into 
the southern boundary of my city residential lot. 
Any longer and it would have to be anchored in 
the street. I doubt the city would appreciate that approach.

> 73,
>
>
> To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
>
___

Nick Hall-Patch
Victoria, BC
Canada
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Re: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

[Chuck Hutton]

One area where a flag can't compete with a DKAZ is that the main beam of a DKAZ 
is quite a bit narrower than for a corner fed loop. 3 dB bandwidth is about 150 
degrees for a "flag" and 100 degrees for a DKAZ.


What factors are you lumping into "performance" F/B? F/S? Beanwidth? Gain?


Is it correct that your flag is really a corner fed loop of 27H x 45W?


Whatever the details, a decent sized corner fed loop like yours is a good 
antenna. It actually outperforms a 20 x160 DKAZ in the bottom third of the band 
in terms of gain.


Chuck



From: IRCA  on behalf of R. Colin Newell 

Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 4:14 PM
To: C B
Cc: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
Subject: [IRCA] KAZ versus Pennant/Flag

Begging pardon if I’m speaking out of turn - my FLAGS (45 x 27’) with WELLBROOK 
FLG100 heads have plenty of performance -

One problem with “bigger” in the urban environment is — you’re amplifying noise 
along with signals.

I wonder what is gained with a KAZ or DKAZ on city lots...

Colin Newell - Victoria - B.C. CANADA -

> On Oct 22, 2018, at 3:45 PM, C B  wrote:
>
> Kaz,
> Thanks for taking the time to elaborate. I am trying to think outside of the 
> box and see if I might be able to cram a 100 to 112 ft. DKAZ into the 
> southern boundary of my city residential lot. Any longer and it would have to 
> be anchored in the street. I doubt the city would appreciate that approach.
> 73,
>
>
> To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
>
___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
IRCA Info Page - Kotalampi
montreal.kotalampi.com
This group is for those interested in AM (Broadcast Band) DXing, sponsored by 
the International Radio Club of America (IRCA) To see the collection of prior 
postings to the list, visit the IRCA Archives.(The current archive is only 
available to the list members.Using IRCA




Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

___
IRCA mailing list
IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca

Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original 
contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its 
editors, publishing staff, or officers

For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org

To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com