RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[marc fleury]

|obviously has to have customers, and those customers deserve respect.

Customers pay,

My comments stand

marcf

|
|Sincerely,
|
|Brian Sondergaard
|
|P.S. I'll buy you a pitcher (or two) next week in SF.
|
|- Original Message -
|From: marc fleury [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|To: Trawick, James [EMAIL PROTECTED];
|Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net
|[EMAIL PROTECTED]; Jboss-User@Lists. Sourceforge.
|Net [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 10:22 PM
|Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
|
|
| mr trawick james,
|
| suck my dick
|
| marcf
|
|
| |-Original Message-
| |From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| |[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
| |Trawick, James
| |Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 12:33 PM
| |To: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net; Jboss-User@Lists.
| |Sourceforge. Net
| |Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
| |
| |
| |Not unfounded, personally proven.
| |
| |In any case there needs to be some sort of kickstart and executive
|summary
| |for the new JBoss features.  If it means that I'll finally get the
|answers
| |I'm looking for without holding for three hours and/or putting up with
|the
| |hellfire here, I'll be more than happy to help produce that.
| |
| |I was not aware that the docs for sale were actually available.  My
| |experience has been the exact opposite.  On three separate
|occaisons over
| |the past couple of months I've attempted to purchase the clustering
| |documentation.  Each time I received a message saying that there was a
| |problem with their side of the transaction and a support rep would be in
| |contact with me.  Despite multiple attempts to open communications about
| |these cases with Flashline, they have failed to do so.  Emails
|apparently
| |went to the bit bucket and their phone support reps have proven to be
| |anywhere from rude to utterly incompetant.  So for my purposes, the docs
| |aren't real because for whatever reason I can't get to them despite my
| |willingness to pay the mere $10 for quality documentation.  At
|least they
| |didn't charge me for it.
| |
| |chris
| |
| |-Original Message-
| |From: Bill Burke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
| |Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:10 PM
| |To: Trawick, James
| |Cc: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net; Jboss-User@Lists.
| |Sourceforge. Net
| |Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
| |
| |
| |Clustering docs are available for purchase.
| |
| |http://www.flashline.com/components/productsbyvendor.jsp?vendorid=
| |1376affi
| |liateid=260343
| |
| |I've also written an article on clustering JBoss 2.4.x
| |
| |http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2001/09/18/jboss.html
| |
| |Clustering features in JBoss beta:
| |HA-JNDI, HA-RMI, EJBs(EB, SLSB, SFSB) Failover and load-balancing
| |
| |The code for HTTP Session Failover is in CVS, but is a work in progress.
| |Ask Sacha and Julian how it's going.  I don't work on this stuff.  HTTP
| |Session Failover will probably only be available for Jetty.
| |
| |I don't know what you're talking about when you say docs for sale aren't
| |real, because we've already sold at least a 100 copies of the clustering
| |docs.  Sacha and I have gotten good feedback on these docs so your
| |complaints are unfounded.
| |
| | -Original Message-
| | From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| | [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
| | Trawick, James
| | Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 2:28 PM
| | To: 'David Ward'
| | Cc: 'marc fleury'; Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net;
| | Jboss-User@Lists. Sourceforge. Net
| | Subject: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
| |
| |
| | What I'm really interested in is the more corporate questions
| |(we're still
| | battling for JBoss over Weblogic, and clustering is a real sore
| | point).  How
| | does JBoss 3 clustering interact with web container clustering?
| | If they're
| | completely separate (which I'm pretty sure is the case, as it was
| | last time
| | I walked through the code), how can I put together a full clustered
|J2EE
| | stack with JBoss and (for example) Tomcat/Catalina?  To what
|level does
| | JBoss provide high-availability?  What are some failover scenarios?
|How
| | does one initiate a graceful failover for server maintenance?  How
| | flexible/controllable is JBoss clustering in reality?
| |
| |
| |Failover scenarios?
| |- failed network card
| |- server crash
| |- application crash
| |- What else?
| |
| |Initiate graceful failover for Server maintainance?
| |Just gracefully shutdown jboss.  The Cluster dynamically figures out
| |topology.  Topology information is piggy-backed over invocation
| |responses to
| |client proxies when it changes.
| |
| |How flexible/controllable?
| |We wanted to keep things as simple as possible for the initial
|release to
| |reduce code complexity and make sure we get the core things
| |correct.  If you
| |want to know how flexible, buy the docs.  It's only $10.00.
| |
| |Bill

Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[Jason Dillon]

Does it really matter that the wiki be j2ee?  What about one just based on servlets?  
I expect that we will want to run a Java based system too... though that is kind of a 
shame, since there are lots of PHP apps out there which could complement JBoss.org.

Anyways, I just took a quick look at the different projects on sf.net which poped up 
with java wiki... probably dosen't matter too much which one it is.

Based on activity alone it looks like we should choose in this order:

 1) Java Wiki/Webtrans (96%)
 2) Chiki Wiki (40%)
 3) Very Quick Wiki (35%)

--jason
_
View thread online: http://main.jboss.org/thread.jsp?forum=66thread=10925

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Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[Greg Wilkins]

Guys,

I'm not sure why James is getting flamed to such an extent for mostly saying
that the Flashline system is not working???

Whatever - I just tested it and it worked fine for me??!?!?!?

James' suggestion about a summary of the new features and current state
is not a bad one.  but I guess that is being addressed by the wiki
discussion  (The webmacro wiki is good. Twiki used to crash a lot for me).

Note that open an slather wiki site will get lots of contributions, but
will not make great doco, plus it will get trashed at least once a month
- from my experience of using wiki with Jetty.

So I would say try to constrain what we use it for to what it is good at -
recording current status and FAQs.  People should still be writing doco.

cheers



marc fleury wrote:
 mr trawick james,
 
 suck my dick
 
 marcf
 
 
 |-Original Message-
 |From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 |[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
 |Trawick, James
 |Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 12:33 PM
 |To: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net; Jboss-User@Lists.
 |Sourceforge. Net
 |Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
 |
 |
 |Not unfounded, personally proven.
 |
 |In any case there needs to be some sort of kickstart and executive summary
 |for the new JBoss features.  If it means that I'll finally get the answers
 |I'm looking for without holding for three hours and/or putting up with the
 |hellfire here, I'll be more than happy to help produce that.
 |
 |I was not aware that the docs for sale were actually available.  My
 |experience has been the exact opposite.  On three separate occaisons over
 |the past couple of months I've attempted to purchase the clustering
 |documentation.  Each time I received a message saying that there was a
 |problem with their side of the transaction and a support rep would be in
 |contact with me.  Despite multiple attempts to open communications about
 |these cases with Flashline, they have failed to do so.  Emails apparently
 |went to the bit bucket and their phone support reps have proven to be
 |anywhere from rude to utterly incompetant.  So for my purposes, the docs
 |aren't real because for whatever reason I can't get to them despite my
 |willingness to pay the mere $10 for quality documentation.  At least they
 |didn't charge me for it.
 |
 |chris
 |
 |-Original Message-
 |From: Bill Burke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 |Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:10 PM
 |To: Trawick, James
 |Cc: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net; Jboss-User@Lists.
 |Sourceforge. Net
 |Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
 |
 |
 |Clustering docs are available for purchase.
 |
 |http://www.flashline.com/components/productsbyvendor.jsp?vendorid=
 |1376affi
 |liateid=260343
 |
 |I've also written an article on clustering JBoss 2.4.x
 |
 |http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2001/09/18/jboss.html
 |
 |Clustering features in JBoss beta:
 |HA-JNDI, HA-RMI, EJBs(EB, SLSB, SFSB) Failover and load-balancing
 |
 |The code for HTTP Session Failover is in CVS, but is a work in progress.
 |Ask Sacha and Julian how it's going.  I don't work on this stuff.  HTTP
 |Session Failover will probably only be available for Jetty.
 |
 |I don't know what you're talking about when you say docs for sale aren't
 |real, because we've already sold at least a 100 copies of the clustering
 |docs.  Sacha and I have gotten good feedback on these docs so your
 |complaints are unfounded.
 |
 | -Original Message-
 | From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 | [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
 | Trawick, James
 | Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 2:28 PM
 | To: 'David Ward'
 | Cc: 'marc fleury'; Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net;
 | Jboss-User@Lists. Sourceforge. Net
 | Subject: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
 |
 |
 | What I'm really interested in is the more corporate questions 
 |(we're still
 | battling for JBoss over Weblogic, and clustering is a real sore
 | point).  How
 | does JBoss 3 clustering interact with web container clustering?
 | If they're
 | completely separate (which I'm pretty sure is the case, as it was
 | last time
 | I walked through the code), how can I put together a full clustered J2EE
 | stack with JBoss and (for example) Tomcat/Catalina?  To what level does
 | JBoss provide high-availability?  What are some failover scenarios?  How
 | does one initiate a graceful failover for server maintenance?  How
 | flexible/controllable is JBoss clustering in reality?
 |
 |
 |Failover scenarios?
 |- failed network card
 |- server crash
 |- application crash
 |- What else?
 |
 |Initiate graceful failover for Server maintainance?
 |Just gracefully shutdown jboss.  The Cluster dynamically figures out
 |topology.  Topology information is piggy-backed over invocation 
 |responses to
 |client proxies when it changes.
 |
 |How flexible/controllable?
 |We wanted to keep things as simple as possible for the initial release to
 |reduce code complexity and make sure we get the core

Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[Brian Sondergaard]

Comments like this jeopardize the investment of a bunch of hard-working
JBoss developers and an even larger number of corporate developers that are
attempting to server as evangelists for the product.

James politely made perfectly valid comments about his experience and
offered intelligent suggestions for the product. In the best interest of
JBoss, he even offered to help.

Marc, I know you and others are working extremely hard to make this a
world-class product, and you're doing a great job. But a world-class product
obviously has to have customers, and those customers deserve respect.

Sincerely,

Brian Sondergaard

P.S. I'll buy you a pitcher (or two) next week in SF.

- Original Message -
From: marc fleury [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Trawick, James [EMAIL PROTECTED];
Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; Jboss-User@Lists. Sourceforge.
Net [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 10:22 PM
Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL


 mr trawick james,

 suck my dick

 marcf


 |-Original Message-
 |From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 |[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
 |Trawick, James
 |Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 12:33 PM
 |To: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net; Jboss-User@Lists.
 |Sourceforge. Net
 |Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
 |
 |
 |Not unfounded, personally proven.
 |
 |In any case there needs to be some sort of kickstart and executive
summary
 |for the new JBoss features.  If it means that I'll finally get the
answers
 |I'm looking for without holding for three hours and/or putting up with
the
 |hellfire here, I'll be more than happy to help produce that.
 |
 |I was not aware that the docs for sale were actually available.  My
 |experience has been the exact opposite.  On three separate occaisons over
 |the past couple of months I've attempted to purchase the clustering
 |documentation.  Each time I received a message saying that there was a
 |problem with their side of the transaction and a support rep would be in
 |contact with me.  Despite multiple attempts to open communications about
 |these cases with Flashline, they have failed to do so.  Emails apparently
 |went to the bit bucket and their phone support reps have proven to be
 |anywhere from rude to utterly incompetant.  So for my purposes, the docs
 |aren't real because for whatever reason I can't get to them despite my
 |willingness to pay the mere $10 for quality documentation.  At least they
 |didn't charge me for it.
 |
 |chris
 |
 |-Original Message-
 |From: Bill Burke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 |Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:10 PM
 |To: Trawick, James
 |Cc: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net; Jboss-User@Lists.
 |Sourceforge. Net
 |Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
 |
 |
 |Clustering docs are available for purchase.
 |
 |http://www.flashline.com/components/productsbyvendor.jsp?vendorid=
 |1376affi
 |liateid=260343
 |
 |I've also written an article on clustering JBoss 2.4.x
 |
 |http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2001/09/18/jboss.html
 |
 |Clustering features in JBoss beta:
 |HA-JNDI, HA-RMI, EJBs(EB, SLSB, SFSB) Failover and load-balancing
 |
 |The code for HTTP Session Failover is in CVS, but is a work in progress.
 |Ask Sacha and Julian how it's going.  I don't work on this stuff.  HTTP
 |Session Failover will probably only be available for Jetty.
 |
 |I don't know what you're talking about when you say docs for sale aren't
 |real, because we've already sold at least a 100 copies of the clustering
 |docs.  Sacha and I have gotten good feedback on these docs so your
 |complaints are unfounded.
 |
 | -Original Message-
 | From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 | [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
 | Trawick, James
 | Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 2:28 PM
 | To: 'David Ward'
 | Cc: 'marc fleury'; Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net;
 | Jboss-User@Lists. Sourceforge. Net
 | Subject: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
 |
 |
 | What I'm really interested in is the more corporate questions
 |(we're still
 | battling for JBoss over Weblogic, and clustering is a real sore
 | point).  How
 | does JBoss 3 clustering interact with web container clustering?
 | If they're
 | completely separate (which I'm pretty sure is the case, as it was
 | last time
 | I walked through the code), how can I put together a full clustered
J2EE
 | stack with JBoss and (for example) Tomcat/Catalina?  To what level does
 | JBoss provide high-availability?  What are some failover scenarios?
How
 | does one initiate a graceful failover for server maintenance?  How
 | flexible/controllable is JBoss clustering in reality?
 |
 |
 |Failover scenarios?
 |- failed network card
 |- server crash
 |- application crash
 |- What else?
 |
 |Initiate graceful failover for Server maintainance?
 |Just gracefully shutdown jboss.  The Cluster dynamically figures out
 |topology.  Topology information is piggy-backed over invocation

RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[marc fleury]

yes,

david pitched it at boston, and i already said that this would be
interesting as part of the jboss professional forums.  andreas is working on
these, it weeds out the non professional people with a small fee that makes
sure you are not just cruising by and sending your 'i can't get my bean to
run' and keeps it high quality.  then we could actually assign someone from
the group to maitain it for pay and that would probably work.

more on that as soon as we can

marcf

|-Original Message-
|From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jeff
|Tulley
|Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 8:52 PM
|To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
|
|
|What would it take to get a wiki up and running?  I think that is a very
|good idea.  It is worth experimenting with, anyway.  Something like that
|is incremental and if the right categories were created, people would
|have a place to quickly contribute without having to be a committer.  I
|like the idea.  Then some of that could probably be organized and
|funnelled into a formal doc, if we decide it would be better, but even
|if that never happened, what the heck, it would still be pretty good.
|
|Jeff Tulley  ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
|(801)861-5322
|Novell, Inc., the leading provider of Net business solutions
|http://www.novell.com
| David Jencks [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/14/02 18:12 PM 
|On 2002.03.14 19:11:13 -0500 Mac Rinehart wrote:
|
|For what its worth I think the best format for something like this would
|be a wiki, so that updating it doesn't need to involve cvs commits and
|rebuilding the website.  Ideal would be a version controlled j2ee wiki
|running in jboss/jetty;-)  Marc hasn't been thrilled yet with this idea
|(user howto wiki), but probably if someone made it happen his attitude
|might change.
|
|
|Thanks!
|david jencks
|
| Mac Rinehart, President
| Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc
|
| Legal stuff: SEXTANT TECHNOLOGY CONSULTING is a trademark of Sextant
| Technology Consulting, Inc. Any agreement to render services by Mac
| Rinehart
| and/or Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc. is contingent upon an
| agreement
| in writing and signed by all interested parties.
|
|
| -Original Message-
| From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
|David
| Jencks
| Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:22 PM
| To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
|
|
| Ummm
| In your previous post you wrote
| I've seen a lot of
| complaints
| in the forums regarding the same issues in the documentation for sale
|-
| probably the only reason I haven't laid down my 10 spot yet. 
| ...
| And if I were going to pay for
| documentation, I don't want a print document that's going to be out of
| date
| in two weeks. 
|
| A couple of minutes of investigation would have revealed that the for
|pay
| 2.4.4 documentation you are declining to buy so as to, perhaps, show
|your
| support of JBoss and encourage the developers to write more
| documentation,
| is the exact same book that you are applauding at Amazon:
|
| http://www.jboss.org/doco.jsp
|
| In order to support the development of JBoss and ensure that the
| documentation remains up to date, we offer a PDF version of the JBoss
| book
| to be published by SAMS publishing. 
|
| Following the link also brings you to the Comperehensive Documentation
| Subscription at the very top of the page, really hard to miss.
|
| david jencks
|
| On 2002.03.14 17:50:27 -0500 Mac Rinehart wrote:
|  Another reason for different versions of the documentation for
| different
|  releases. The fact is that some people - particularly risk conscious
|  corporate users - will continue to use 2.4 and not jump to 3.0 until
|  another
|  rev or two are out the door.
| 
|  Regarding Open source friendly tech writers - I think that could
|work,
|  but
|  it's got to take a little formal organization from the inside too. I
| can
|  see
|  tech writers donating their writing services, but they probably
|would
|  like
|  to have some established procedures for how to access information,
| style
|  conventions and the like. I see that they sort of information is
|  available
|  for developers, I haven't seen it for tech writers (which doesn't
|mean
|  much
|  since I've only been following things actively for a couple of
|weeks).
| 
|  I would provide some tech writing services pro-bono, but
|establishing a
|  procedure for getting the documentation in place is something that
| takes
|  a
|  little organization. What's the status on JBoss Group's process for
|  developing administration and user documentation?
| 
|  And BTW, this seems to be a good opportunity for plugging JBoss
|  Administration  Development, coming out on March 22 and doing
| excellent
|  on
|  sales at Amazon already! Congrats. How does the book do in terms of
|  covering
|  version 3?
| 
| 
|  Mac Rinehart, President
|  Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc
| 
|  Legal stuff

RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[Bill Burke]

Sweet!!!

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of marc
 fleury
 Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 10:21 PM
 To: Bill Burke; Trawick, James
 Cc: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net; Jboss-User@Lists.
 Sourceforge. Net
 Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
 
 
 
 |real, because we've already sold at least a 100 copies of the clustering
 
 468
 
 marcf
 
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RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[Matt Humphrey]

Other than the fact that it would be cool, what's the reason for a J2EE
Wiki? This *REALLY* limits you, adds a great deal of resources to the
server, and restricts the environments in which you can run. The
Perl-based Wikis work great, have more features, require less resources,
will run on virtually every Unix box out there with little or no
additional software installation, and should easily handle the traffic
that would be generated here.

Just my 2 cents worth.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of
David Jencks
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 12:29 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL


I think it would take someone locating or writing a j2ee based wiki that
works fine on jboss/jetty, demonstrating it somewhere, and getting marc
to say that looks good, lets do it

I played with veryquickwiki for a little while, which seemed to work
fine, but it is file based and may not be terribly robust (I have no
evidence it isn't, but it is so simple!!).  There are some other j2ee
wikis: I don't know if any support saving history in a db, which I think
would be useful.

david jencks

On 2002.03.14 23:51:36 -0500 Jeff Tulley wrote:
 What would it take to get a wiki up and running?  I think that is a 
 very good idea.  It is worth experimenting with, anyway.  Something 
 like that is incremental and if the right categories were created, 
 people would have a place to quickly contribute without having to be a

 committer.  I like the idea.  Then some of that could probably be 
 organized and funnelled into a formal doc, if we decide it would be 
 better, but even if that never happened, what the heck, it would still

 be pretty good.
 
 Jeff Tulley  ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
 (801)861-5322
 Novell, Inc., the leading provider of Net business solutions 
 http://www.novell.com
  David Jencks [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/14/02 18:12 PM 
  
 On 2002.03.14 19:11:13 -0500 Mac Rinehart wrote:
 
 For what its worth I think the best format for something like this 
 would be a wiki, so that updating it doesn't need to involve cvs 
 commits and rebuilding the website.  Ideal would be a version 
 controlled j2ee wiki running in jboss/jetty;-)  Marc hasn't been 
 thrilled yet with this idea (user howto wiki), but probably if someone

 made it happen his attitude might change.
 
 
 Thanks!
 david jencks
  
  Mac Rinehart, President
  Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc
  
  Legal stuff: SEXTANT TECHNOLOGY CONSULTING is a trademark of Sextant

  Technology Consulting, Inc. Any agreement to render services by Mac 
  Rinehart and/or Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc. is contingent 
  upon an agreement
  in writing and signed by all interested parties.
  
  
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
 David
  Jencks
  Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:22 PM
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
  
  
  Ummm
  In your previous post you wrote
  I've seen a lot of
  complaints
  in the forums regarding the same issues in the documentation for 
  sale
 -
  probably the only reason I haven't laid down my 10 spot yet.  ...
  And if I were going to pay for
  documentation, I don't want a print document that's going to be out
of
  date
  in two weeks. 
  
  A couple of minutes of investigation would have revealed that the 
  for
 pay
  2.4.4 documentation you are declining to buy so as to, perhaps, show
 your
  support of JBoss and encourage the developers to write more 
  documentation, is the exact same book that you are applauding at 
  Amazon:
  
  http://www.jboss.org/doco.jsp
  
  In order to support the development of JBoss and ensure that the 
  documentation remains up to date, we offer a PDF version of the 
  JBoss book to be published by SAMS publishing. 
  
  Following the link also brings you to the Comperehensive 
  Documentation Subscription at the very top of the page, really hard 
  to miss.
  
  david jencks
  
  On 2002.03.14 17:50:27 -0500 Mac Rinehart wrote:
   Another reason for different versions of the documentation for
  different
   releases. The fact is that some people - particularly risk 
   conscious corporate users - will continue to use 2.4 and not jump 
   to 3.0 until another rev or two are out the door.
  
   Regarding Open source friendly tech writers - I think that could
 work,
   but
   it's got to take a little formal organization from the inside too.

   I
  can
   see
   tech writers donating their writing services, but they probably
 would
   like
   to have some established procedures for how to access information,
  style
   conventions and the like. I see that they sort of information is 
   available for developers, I haven't seen it for tech writers 
   (which doesn't
 mean
   much
   since I've only been following things actively for a couple of
 weeks).
  
   I would provide some tech writing services pro-bono

Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[Dirk Vleugels]

Hi,

On Fri, 2002-03-15 at 06:29, David Jencks wrote:
 I think it would take someone locating or writing a j2ee based wiki that
 works fine on jboss/jetty, demonstrating it somewhere, and getting marc to
 say that looks good, lets do it

http://www.webmacro.org/AboutThisSite

Seems to work rather well

Regards,
Dirk

-- 
Dirk Vleugels   E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2scale GmbH Phone:  +49 231 28 661 52
Am Rosenplätzchen 20Fax:+49 231 28 661 59
44269 Dortmund, Germany Mobile: +49 173 28 106 61



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Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[David Jencks]

I really don't know enough about it to comment intelligently.  However,
presumably this wiki would be run on one of the jboss.org boxes, so it
would already have jboss + a database running.  I really don't know whether
the perl wikis have any security vulnerabilities.  It also seems like good
advertising and a reasonable test to run one on jboss, whereas a bit odd
not to.  But, I have about 30 minutes experience running a wiki, so I
really don't know what I'm talking about here.

david jencks

On 2002.03.15 08:13:54 -0500 Matt Humphrey wrote:
 Other than the fact that it would be cool, what's the reason for a J2EE
 Wiki? This *REALLY* limits you, adds a great deal of resources to the
 server, and restricts the environments in which you can run. The
 Perl-based Wikis work great, have more features, require less resources,
 will run on virtually every Unix box out there with little or no
 additional software installation, and should easily handle the traffic
 that would be generated here.
 
 Just my 2 cents worth.
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of
 David Jencks
 Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 12:29 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
 
 
 I think it would take someone locating or writing a j2ee based wiki that
 works fine on jboss/jetty, demonstrating it somewhere, and getting marc
 to say that looks good, lets do it
 
 I played with veryquickwiki for a little while, which seemed to work
 fine, but it is file based and may not be terribly robust (I have no
 evidence it isn't, but it is so simple!!).  There are some other j2ee
 wikis: I don't know if any support saving history in a db, which I think
 would be useful.
 
 david jencks
 
 On 2002.03.14 23:51:36 -0500 Jeff Tulley wrote:
  What would it take to get a wiki up and running?  I think that is a 
  very good idea.  It is worth experimenting with, anyway.  Something 
  like that is incremental and if the right categories were created, 
  people would have a place to quickly contribute without having to be a
 
  committer.  I like the idea.  Then some of that could probably be 
  organized and funnelled into a formal doc, if we decide it would be 
  better, but even if that never happened, what the heck, it would still
 
  be pretty good.
  
  Jeff Tulley  ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
  (801)861-5322
  Novell, Inc., the leading provider of Net business solutions 
  http://www.novell.com
   David Jencks [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/14/02 18:12 PM 
   
  On 2002.03.14 19:11:13 -0500 Mac Rinehart wrote:
  
  For what its worth I think the best format for something like this 
  would be a wiki, so that updating it doesn't need to involve cvs 
  commits and rebuilding the website.  Ideal would be a version 
  controlled j2ee wiki running in jboss/jetty;-)  Marc hasn't been 
  thrilled yet with this idea (user howto wiki), but probably if someone
 
  made it happen his attitude might change.
  
  
  Thanks!
  david jencks
   
   Mac Rinehart, President
   Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc
   
   Legal stuff: SEXTANT TECHNOLOGY CONSULTING is a trademark of Sextant
 
   Technology Consulting, Inc. Any agreement to render services by Mac 
   Rinehart and/or Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc. is contingent 
   upon an agreement
   in writing and signed by all interested parties.
   
   
   -Original Message-
   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
  David
   Jencks
   Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:22 PM
   To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
   
   
   Ummm
   In your previous post you wrote
   I've seen a lot of
   complaints
   in the forums regarding the same issues in the documentation for 
   sale
  -
   probably the only reason I haven't laid down my 10 spot yet.  ...
   And if I were going to pay for
   documentation, I don't want a print document that's going to be out
 of
   date
   in two weeks. 
   
   A couple of minutes of investigation would have revealed that the 
   for
  pay
   2.4.4 documentation you are declining to buy so as to, perhaps, show
  your
   support of JBoss and encourage the developers to write more 
   documentation, is the exact same book that you are applauding at 
   Amazon:
   
   http://www.jboss.org/doco.jsp
   
   In order to support the development of JBoss and ensure that the 
   documentation remains up to date, we offer a PDF version of the 
   JBoss book to be published by SAMS publishing. 
   
   Following the link also brings you to the Comperehensive 
   Documentation Subscription at the very top of the page, really hard 
   to miss.
   
   david jencks
   
   On 2002.03.14 17:50:27 -0500 Mac Rinehart wrote:
Another reason for different versions of the documentation for
   different
releases. The fact is that some people - particularly risk 
conscious corporate users - will continue to use 2.4 and not jump 
to 3.0

RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[Matt Humphrey]

(My apologies for butting in here)

I think this is a fantastic idea. I've set up a number of Wiki's for
past clients and for my current employer. They really help pull
important stuff out of e-mail and offline documents and put it where
it's accessible to everyone. 

There are *numerous* Wiki clones. I looked at all of them about 2 years
ago. The one which I recommend is called Twiki ( http://twiki.org ).
It features, among other things, the ability to automatically track
revisions of pages and file attachments. It has a Web Notify feature
where you can get a periodic e-mail summarizing all changes to the Wiki.
It's also actively being worked on, which is something that is not true
for most of the Wiki clones out there.

BTW, I'd be happy to help with this effort if help is needed or desired.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of marc
fleury
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 6:27 AM
To: Jeff Tulley; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL


yes,

david pitched it at boston, and i already said that this would be
interesting as part of the jboss professional forums.  andreas is
working on these, it weeds out the non professional people with a small
fee that makes sure you are not just cruising by and sending your 'i
can't get my bean to run' and keeps it high quality.  then we could
actually assign someone from the group to maitain it for pay and that
would probably work.

more on that as soon as we can

marcf

|-Original Message-
|From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jeff

|Tulley
|Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 8:52 PM
|To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
|
|
|What would it take to get a wiki up and running?  I think that is a 
|very good idea.  It is worth experimenting with, anyway.  Something 
|like that is incremental and if the right categories were created, 
|people would have a place to quickly contribute without having to be a 
|committer.  I like the idea.  Then some of that could probably be 
|organized and funnelled into a formal doc, if we decide it would be 
|better, but even if that never happened, what the heck, it would still 
|be pretty good.
|
|Jeff Tulley  ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
|(801)861-5322
|Novell, Inc., the leading provider of Net business solutions 
|http://www.novell.com
| David Jencks [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/14/02 18:12 PM 
| 
|On 2002.03.14 19:11:13 -0500 Mac Rinehart wrote:
|
|For what its worth I think the best format for something like this 
|would be a wiki, so that updating it doesn't need to involve cvs 
|commits and rebuilding the website.  Ideal would be a version 
|controlled j2ee wiki running in jboss/jetty;-)  Marc hasn't been 
|thrilled yet with this idea (user howto wiki), but probably if someone 
|made it happen his attitude might change.
|
|
|Thanks!
|david jencks
|
| Mac Rinehart, President
| Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc
|
| Legal stuff: SEXTANT TECHNOLOGY CONSULTING is a trademark of Sextant 
| Technology Consulting, Inc. Any agreement to render services by Mac 
| Rinehart and/or Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc. is contingent 
| upon an agreement
| in writing and signed by all interested parties.
|
|
| -Original Message-
| From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
|David
| Jencks
| Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:22 PM
| To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
|
|
| Ummm
| In your previous post you wrote
| I've seen a lot of
| complaints
| in the forums regarding the same issues in the documentation for sale
|-
| probably the only reason I haven't laid down my 10 spot yet.  ...
| And if I were going to pay for
| documentation, I don't want a print document that's going to be out
of
| date
| in two weeks. 
|
| A couple of minutes of investigation would have revealed that the for
|pay
| 2.4.4 documentation you are declining to buy so as to, perhaps, show
|your
| support of JBoss and encourage the developers to write more 
| documentation, is the exact same book that you are applauding at 
| Amazon:
|
| http://www.jboss.org/doco.jsp
|
| In order to support the development of JBoss and ensure that the 
| documentation remains up to date, we offer a PDF version of the JBoss

| book to be published by SAMS publishing. 
|
| Following the link also brings you to the Comperehensive 
| Documentation Subscription at the very top of the page, really hard 
| to miss.
|
| david jencks
|
| On 2002.03.14 17:50:27 -0500 Mac Rinehart wrote:
|  Another reason for different versions of the documentation for
| different
|  releases. The fact is that some people - particularly risk 
|  conscious corporate users - will continue to use 2.4 and not jump 
|  to 3.0 until another rev or two are out the door.
| 
|  Regarding Open source friendly tech writers - I think that could
|work,
|  but
|  it's got to take a little formal organization from

Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[David Jencks]

Ummm
In your previous post you wrote
I've seen a lot of
complaints
in the forums regarding the same issues in the documentation for sale -
probably the only reason I haven't laid down my 10 spot yet. 
...
And if I were going to pay for
documentation, I don't want a print document that's going to be out of date
in two weeks. 

A couple of minutes of investigation would have revealed that the for pay
2.4.4 documentation you are declining to buy so as to, perhaps, show your
support of JBoss and encourage the developers to write more documentation,
is the exact same book that you are applauding at Amazon:

http://www.jboss.org/doco.jsp

In order to support the development of JBoss and ensure that the
documentation remains up to date, we offer a PDF version of the JBoss book
to be published by SAMS publishing. 

Following the link also brings you to the Comperehensive Documentation
Subscription at the very top of the page, really hard to miss.

david jencks

On 2002.03.14 17:50:27 -0500 Mac Rinehart wrote:
 Another reason for different versions of the documentation for different
 releases. The fact is that some people - particularly risk conscious
 corporate users - will continue to use 2.4 and not jump to 3.0 until
 another
 rev or two are out the door.
 
 Regarding Open source friendly tech writers - I think that could work,
 but
 it's got to take a little formal organization from the inside too. I can
 see
 tech writers donating their writing services, but they probably would
 like
 to have some established procedures for how to access information, style
 conventions and the like. I see that they sort of information is
 available
 for developers, I haven't seen it for tech writers (which doesn't mean
 much
 since I've only been following things actively for a couple of weeks).
 
 I would provide some tech writing services pro-bono, but establishing a
 procedure for getting the documentation in place is something that takes
 a
 little organization. What's the status on JBoss Group's process for
 developing administration and user documentation?
 
 And BTW, this seems to be a good opportunity for plugging JBoss
 Administration  Development, coming out on March 22 and doing excellent
 on
 sales at Amazon already! Congrats. How does the book do in terms of
 covering
 version 3?
 
 
 Mac Rinehart, President
 Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc
 
 Legal stuff: SEXTANT TECHNOLOGY CONSULTING is a trademark of Sextant
 Technology Consulting, Inc. Any agreement to render services by Mac
 Rinehart
 and/or Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc. is contingent upon an
 agreement
 in writing and signed by all interested parties.
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: David Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 1:42 PM
 To: Mac Rinehart
 Cc: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net; Jboss-User@Lists.
 Sourceforge. Net
 Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
 
 
 It doesn't always lag - sometimes it's too eager!  Example: I had a
 gripe that 2.4 documentation started disappering off the web site, being
 replaced with 3.0 documentation when 3.0 was only alpha.  I think that
 the 2.4 docs should stay available online - at least until 3.x goes
 final.
 
 Mac Rinehart wrote:
  The free user documentation is only moderately useful, and
  lags behind development on a number of issues.
 
 BEGIN:VCARD
 VERSION:2.1
 N:Rinehart;Mac;;President
 FN:Mac Rinehart
 ORG:Sextant Technology Consulting
 TITLE:President
 TEL;WORK;VOICE:(503) 251-2855
 ADR;WORK:;;7402 SE Yamhill Street;Portland;OR;97215;USA
 LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:7402 SE Yamhill
 Street=0D=0APortland, OR 97215=0D=0AUSA
 EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 REV:20011008T212138Z
 END:VCARD
 

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RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[Mac Rinehart]

Ummm...well there's egg on my face. :)

My goal is not to be critical of anyone here, or to any of the developers
who put the additional extra effort to generate documentation on top of
building an excellent product. If you've taken offense, my apologies.
Perhaps you can discount my failure to discover those items as the result of
overwork, undersleep, and lack of familiarity with the JBoss site. And my
offer still stands to contribute to the documentation or to the process of
developing it if that needs any work.

Mac Rinehart, President
Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc

Legal stuff: SEXTANT TECHNOLOGY CONSULTING is a trademark of Sextant
Technology Consulting, Inc. Any agreement to render services by Mac Rinehart
and/or Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc. is contingent upon an agreement
in writing and signed by all interested parties.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of David
Jencks
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:22 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL


Ummm
In your previous post you wrote
I've seen a lot of
complaints
in the forums regarding the same issues in the documentation for sale -
probably the only reason I haven't laid down my 10 spot yet. 
...
And if I were going to pay for
documentation, I don't want a print document that's going to be out of date
in two weeks. 

A couple of minutes of investigation would have revealed that the for pay
2.4.4 documentation you are declining to buy so as to, perhaps, show your
support of JBoss and encourage the developers to write more documentation,
is the exact same book that you are applauding at Amazon:

http://www.jboss.org/doco.jsp

In order to support the development of JBoss and ensure that the
documentation remains up to date, we offer a PDF version of the JBoss book
to be published by SAMS publishing. 

Following the link also brings you to the Comperehensive Documentation
Subscription at the very top of the page, really hard to miss.

david jencks

On 2002.03.14 17:50:27 -0500 Mac Rinehart wrote:
 Another reason for different versions of the documentation for different
 releases. The fact is that some people - particularly risk conscious
 corporate users - will continue to use 2.4 and not jump to 3.0 until
 another
 rev or two are out the door.

 Regarding Open source friendly tech writers - I think that could work,
 but
 it's got to take a little formal organization from the inside too. I can
 see
 tech writers donating their writing services, but they probably would
 like
 to have some established procedures for how to access information, style
 conventions and the like. I see that they sort of information is
 available
 for developers, I haven't seen it for tech writers (which doesn't mean
 much
 since I've only been following things actively for a couple of weeks).

 I would provide some tech writing services pro-bono, but establishing a
 procedure for getting the documentation in place is something that takes
 a
 little organization. What's the status on JBoss Group's process for
 developing administration and user documentation?

 And BTW, this seems to be a good opportunity for plugging JBoss
 Administration  Development, coming out on March 22 and doing excellent
 on
 sales at Amazon already! Congrats. How does the book do in terms of
 covering
 version 3?


 Mac Rinehart, President
 Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc

 Legal stuff: SEXTANT TECHNOLOGY CONSULTING is a trademark of Sextant
 Technology Consulting, Inc. Any agreement to render services by Mac
 Rinehart
 and/or Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc. is contingent upon an
 agreement
 in writing and signed by all interested parties.


 -Original Message-
 From: David Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 1:42 PM
 To: Mac Rinehart
 Cc: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net; Jboss-User@Lists.
 Sourceforge. Net
 Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL


 It doesn't always lag - sometimes it's too eager!  Example: I had a
 gripe that 2.4 documentation started disappering off the web site, being
 replaced with 3.0 documentation when 3.0 was only alpha.  I think that
 the 2.4 docs should stay available online - at least until 3.x goes
 final.

 Mac Rinehart wrote:
  The free user documentation is only moderately useful, and
  lags behind development on a number of issues.

 BEGIN:VCARD
 VERSION:2.1
 N:Rinehart;Mac;;President
 FN:Mac Rinehart
 ORG:Sextant Technology Consulting
 TITLE:President
 TEL;WORK;VOICE:(503) 251-2855
 ADR;WORK:;;7402 SE Yamhill Street;Portland;OR;97215;USA
 LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:7402 SE Yamhill
 Street=0D=0APortland, OR 97215=0D=0AUSA
 EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 REV:20011008T212138Z
 END:VCARD


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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development


BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION

Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[David Jencks]

On 2002.03.14 19:11:13 -0500 Mac Rinehart wrote:
 Ummm...well there's egg on my face. :)
 
 My goal is not to be critical of anyone here, or to any of the developers
 who put the additional extra effort to generate documentation on top of
 building an excellent product. If you've taken offense, my apologies.
 Perhaps you can discount my failure to discover those items as the result
 of
 overwork, undersleep, and lack of familiarity with the JBoss site. 

Sorry, I could have guessed that if I'd stepped back and thought, but got
kind of pissed for a minute.

And my
 offer still stands to contribute to the documentation or to the process
 of
 developing it if that needs any work.

Despite people yelling at you occasionally, all help is welcome.  I don't
know how much time and effort you want to put in, or how you would like to
start.  I think a fairly easy way to get started might be to try some how
do I do this simple task things for jboss 3, we've discussed these but I
don't think anyone has really started.

For what its worth I think the best format for something like this would be
a wiki, so that updating it doesn't need to involve cvs commits and
rebuilding the website.  Ideal would be a version controlled j2ee wiki
running in jboss/jetty;-)  Marc hasn't been thrilled yet with this idea
(user howto wiki), but probably if someone made it happen his attitude
might change.


Thanks!
david jencks
 
 Mac Rinehart, President
 Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc
 
 Legal stuff: SEXTANT TECHNOLOGY CONSULTING is a trademark of Sextant
 Technology Consulting, Inc. Any agreement to render services by Mac
 Rinehart
 and/or Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc. is contingent upon an
 agreement
 in writing and signed by all interested parties.
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of David
 Jencks
 Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:22 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
 
 
 Ummm
 In your previous post you wrote
 I've seen a lot of
 complaints
 in the forums regarding the same issues in the documentation for sale -
 probably the only reason I haven't laid down my 10 spot yet. 
 ...
 And if I were going to pay for
 documentation, I don't want a print document that's going to be out of
 date
 in two weeks. 
 
 A couple of minutes of investigation would have revealed that the for pay
 2.4.4 documentation you are declining to buy so as to, perhaps, show your
 support of JBoss and encourage the developers to write more
 documentation,
 is the exact same book that you are applauding at Amazon:
 
 http://www.jboss.org/doco.jsp
 
 In order to support the development of JBoss and ensure that the
 documentation remains up to date, we offer a PDF version of the JBoss
 book
 to be published by SAMS publishing. 
 
 Following the link also brings you to the Comperehensive Documentation
 Subscription at the very top of the page, really hard to miss.
 
 david jencks
 
 On 2002.03.14 17:50:27 -0500 Mac Rinehart wrote:
  Another reason for different versions of the documentation for
 different
  releases. The fact is that some people - particularly risk conscious
  corporate users - will continue to use 2.4 and not jump to 3.0 until
  another
  rev or two are out the door.
 
  Regarding Open source friendly tech writers - I think that could work,
  but
  it's got to take a little formal organization from the inside too. I
 can
  see
  tech writers donating their writing services, but they probably would
  like
  to have some established procedures for how to access information,
 style
  conventions and the like. I see that they sort of information is
  available
  for developers, I haven't seen it for tech writers (which doesn't mean
  much
  since I've only been following things actively for a couple of weeks).
 
  I would provide some tech writing services pro-bono, but establishing a
  procedure for getting the documentation in place is something that
 takes
  a
  little organization. What's the status on JBoss Group's process for
  developing administration and user documentation?
 
  And BTW, this seems to be a good opportunity for plugging JBoss
  Administration  Development, coming out on March 22 and doing
 excellent
  on
  sales at Amazon already! Congrats. How does the book do in terms of
  covering
  version 3?
 
 
  Mac Rinehart, President
  Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc
 
  Legal stuff: SEXTANT TECHNOLOGY CONSULTING is a trademark of Sextant
  Technology Consulting, Inc. Any agreement to render services by Mac
  Rinehart
  and/or Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc. is contingent upon an
  agreement
  in writing and signed by all interested parties.
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: David Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 1:42 PM
  To: Mac Rinehart
  Cc: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net; Jboss-User@Lists.
  Sourceforge. Net
  Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user

Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[Luke Taylor]

David Jencks wrote:
 ...
 
 In order to support the development of JBoss and ensure that the
 documentation remains up to date, we offer a PDF version of the JBoss book
 to be published by SAMS publishing. 
 
 Following the link also brings you to the Comperehensive Documentation
 Subscription at the very top of the page, really hard to miss.
 

Precisely - this documentation business keeps coming up and the bottom 
line is that the PDF of Scott's book is a pretty comprehensive document 
and guide to JBoss 2.4 and if people want documentation for 2.4 they 
should buy it (or the book itself).

Trying to maintain any other sort of serious documentation project is 
just duplicating the effort and is a waste of time, though I'm still in 
favour of retaining a basic getting started guide.

I think the online manual should be mostly JBoss 3 specific - trying to 
have two copies won't be feasible. It's out of date as it is. It should 
also be pretty basic and refer to the pay-for docs as necessary.

Luke.





-- 
  Luke Taylor.  Monkey Machine Ltd.
  PGP Key ID: 0x57E9523Chttp://www.mkeym.com




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Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[Jeff Tulley]

What would it take to get a wiki up and running?  I think that is a very
good idea.  It is worth experimenting with, anyway.  Something like that
is incremental and if the right categories were created, people would
have a place to quickly contribute without having to be a committer.  I
like the idea.  Then some of that could probably be organized and
funnelled into a formal doc, if we decide it would be better, but even
if that never happened, what the heck, it would still be pretty good.

Jeff Tulley  ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
(801)861-5322
Novell, Inc., the leading provider of Net business solutions
http://www.novell.com
 David Jencks [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/14/02 18:12 PM 
On 2002.03.14 19:11:13 -0500 Mac Rinehart wrote:

For what its worth I think the best format for something like this would
be a wiki, so that updating it doesn't need to involve cvs commits and
rebuilding the website.  Ideal would be a version controlled j2ee wiki
running in jboss/jetty;-)  Marc hasn't been thrilled yet with this idea
(user howto wiki), but probably if someone made it happen his attitude
might change.


Thanks!
david jencks
 
 Mac Rinehart, President
 Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc
 
 Legal stuff: SEXTANT TECHNOLOGY CONSULTING is a trademark of Sextant
 Technology Consulting, Inc. Any agreement to render services by Mac
 Rinehart
 and/or Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc. is contingent upon an
 agreement
 in writing and signed by all interested parties.
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
David
 Jencks
 Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:22 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
 
 
 Ummm
 In your previous post you wrote
 I've seen a lot of
 complaints
 in the forums regarding the same issues in the documentation for sale
-
 probably the only reason I haven't laid down my 10 spot yet. 
 ...
 And if I were going to pay for
 documentation, I don't want a print document that's going to be out of
 date
 in two weeks. 
 
 A couple of minutes of investigation would have revealed that the for
pay
 2.4.4 documentation you are declining to buy so as to, perhaps, show
your
 support of JBoss and encourage the developers to write more
 documentation,
 is the exact same book that you are applauding at Amazon:
 
 http://www.jboss.org/doco.jsp
 
 In order to support the development of JBoss and ensure that the
 documentation remains up to date, we offer a PDF version of the JBoss
 book
 to be published by SAMS publishing. 
 
 Following the link also brings you to the Comperehensive Documentation
 Subscription at the very top of the page, really hard to miss.
 
 david jencks
 
 On 2002.03.14 17:50:27 -0500 Mac Rinehart wrote:
  Another reason for different versions of the documentation for
 different
  releases. The fact is that some people - particularly risk conscious
  corporate users - will continue to use 2.4 and not jump to 3.0 until
  another
  rev or two are out the door.
 
  Regarding Open source friendly tech writers - I think that could
work,
  but
  it's got to take a little formal organization from the inside too. I
 can
  see
  tech writers donating their writing services, but they probably
would
  like
  to have some established procedures for how to access information,
 style
  conventions and the like. I see that they sort of information is
  available
  for developers, I haven't seen it for tech writers (which doesn't
mean
  much
  since I've only been following things actively for a couple of
weeks).
 
  I would provide some tech writing services pro-bono, but
establishing a
  procedure for getting the documentation in place is something that
 takes
  a
  little organization. What's the status on JBoss Group's process for
  developing administration and user documentation?
 
  And BTW, this seems to be a good opportunity for plugging JBoss
  Administration  Development, coming out on March 22 and doing
 excellent
  on
  sales at Amazon already! Congrats. How does the book do in terms of
  covering
  version 3?
 
 
  Mac Rinehart, President
  Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc
 
  Legal stuff: SEXTANT TECHNOLOGY CONSULTING is a trademark of Sextant
  Technology Consulting, Inc. Any agreement to render services by Mac
  Rinehart
  and/or Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc. is contingent upon an
  agreement
  in writing and signed by all interested parties.
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: David Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 1:42 PM
  To: Mac Rinehart
  Cc: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net; Jboss-User@Lists.
  Sourceforge. Net
  Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
 
 
  It doesn't always lag - sometimes it's too eager!  Example: I had a
  gripe that 2.4 documentation started disappering off the web site,
 being
  replaced with 3.0 documentation when 3.0 was only alpha.  I think
that
  the 2.4 docs should stay available online - at least

Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[Dain Sundstrom]

Trawick, James wrote:

 Will the final release actually include documentation?


JBossCMP will and already does.

 
 (btw, whoever you went with to sell your JBoss 3 docs should be shot.  i
 went through their process several times, they said they had problems and
 would get back to me.  they never did.  just saying that unless JBoss 3 has
 some form of accessible documentation, i'm afraid that your vision will
 never come to pass.)


Cry me a river.

-dain


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RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[Trawick, James]

  Will the final release actually include documentation?

 JBossCMP will and already does.

Thank you JBossCMP.  I'm asking about the all new stuff, like clustering and
distributed containers and all the other stuff I read about on the site in
Marc's interview.  Until there's some sort of available documentation I'm
forced to rely on my 2.4 experience, which doesn't even start to cover this.

Once apon a time, I was working my way through the JBoss code to try to add
clustering to it myself.  When I heard that you guys were working on that
very thing I figured I'd leave it to the pros.  Now, the code looks
completely different.  Please at least get me a starting point where I can
learn how it works and how to use it.

 
snipped

 Cry me a river.

Let's try this again, this time with maturity.  People, we're all
professionals here.

chris

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RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[Bill Burke]

Clustering docs are available for purchase.

http://www.flashline.com/components/productsbyvendor.jsp?vendorid=1376affi
liateid=260343

I've also written an article on clustering JBoss 2.4.x

http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2001/09/18/jboss.html

Clustering features in JBoss beta:
HA-JNDI, HA-RMI, EJBs(EB, SLSB, SFSB) Failover and load-balancing

The code for HTTP Session Failover is in CVS, but is a work in progress.
Ask Sacha and Julian how it's going.  I don't work on this stuff.  HTTP
Session Failover will probably only be available for Jetty.

I don't know what you're talking about when you say docs for sale aren't
real, because we've already sold at least a 100 copies of the clustering
docs.  Sacha and I have gotten good feedback on these docs so your
complaints are unfounded.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
 Trawick, James
 Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 2:28 PM
 To: 'David Ward'
 Cc: 'marc fleury'; Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net;
 Jboss-User@Lists. Sourceforge. Net
 Subject: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL


 What I'm really interested in is the more corporate questions (we're still
 battling for JBoss over Weblogic, and clustering is a real sore
 point).  How
 does JBoss 3 clustering interact with web container clustering?
 If they're
 completely separate (which I'm pretty sure is the case, as it was
 last time
 I walked through the code), how can I put together a full clustered J2EE
 stack with JBoss and (for example) Tomcat/Catalina?  To what level does
 JBoss provide high-availability?  What are some failover scenarios?  How
 does one initiate a graceful failover for server maintenance?  How
 flexible/controllable is JBoss clustering in reality?


Failover scenarios?
- failed network card
- server crash
- application crash
- What else?

Initiate graceful failover for Server maintainance?
Just gracefully shutdown jboss.  The Cluster dynamically figures out
topology.  Topology information is piggy-backed over invocation responses to
client proxies when it changes.

How flexible/controllable?
We wanted to keep things as simple as possible for the initial release to
reduce code complexity and make sure we get the core things correct.  If you
want to know how flexible, buy the docs.  It's only $10.00.

Bill


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RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[Trawick, James]

Not unfounded, personally proven.

In any case there needs to be some sort of kickstart and executive summary
for the new JBoss features.  If it means that I'll finally get the answers
I'm looking for without holding for three hours and/or putting up with the
hellfire here, I'll be more than happy to help produce that.

I was not aware that the docs for sale were actually available.  My
experience has been the exact opposite.  On three separate occaisons over
the past couple of months I've attempted to purchase the clustering
documentation.  Each time I received a message saying that there was a
problem with their side of the transaction and a support rep would be in
contact with me.  Despite multiple attempts to open communications about
these cases with Flashline, they have failed to do so.  Emails apparently
went to the bit bucket and their phone support reps have proven to be
anywhere from rude to utterly incompetant.  So for my purposes, the docs
aren't real because for whatever reason I can't get to them despite my
willingness to pay the mere $10 for quality documentation.  At least they
didn't charge me for it.

chris

-Original Message-
From: Bill Burke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:10 PM
To: Trawick, James
Cc: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net; Jboss-User@Lists.
Sourceforge. Net
Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL


Clustering docs are available for purchase.

http://www.flashline.com/components/productsbyvendor.jsp?vendorid=1376affi
liateid=260343

I've also written an article on clustering JBoss 2.4.x

http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2001/09/18/jboss.html

Clustering features in JBoss beta:
HA-JNDI, HA-RMI, EJBs(EB, SLSB, SFSB) Failover and load-balancing

The code for HTTP Session Failover is in CVS, but is a work in progress.
Ask Sacha and Julian how it's going.  I don't work on this stuff.  HTTP
Session Failover will probably only be available for Jetty.

I don't know what you're talking about when you say docs for sale aren't
real, because we've already sold at least a 100 copies of the clustering
docs.  Sacha and I have gotten good feedback on these docs so your
complaints are unfounded.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
 Trawick, James
 Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 2:28 PM
 To: 'David Ward'
 Cc: 'marc fleury'; Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net;
 Jboss-User@Lists. Sourceforge. Net
 Subject: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL


 What I'm really interested in is the more corporate questions (we're still
 battling for JBoss over Weblogic, and clustering is a real sore
 point).  How
 does JBoss 3 clustering interact with web container clustering?
 If they're
 completely separate (which I'm pretty sure is the case, as it was
 last time
 I walked through the code), how can I put together a full clustered J2EE
 stack with JBoss and (for example) Tomcat/Catalina?  To what level does
 JBoss provide high-availability?  What are some failover scenarios?  How
 does one initiate a graceful failover for server maintenance?  How
 flexible/controllable is JBoss clustering in reality?


Failover scenarios?
- failed network card
- server crash
- application crash
- What else?

Initiate graceful failover for Server maintainance?
Just gracefully shutdown jboss.  The Cluster dynamically figures out
topology.  Topology information is piggy-backed over invocation responses to
client proxies when it changes.

How flexible/controllable?
We wanted to keep things as simple as possible for the initial release to
reduce code complexity and make sure we get the core things correct.  If you
want to know how flexible, buy the docs.  It's only $10.00.

Bill

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RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[Mac Rinehart]

I'm in agreement with James on the issue of documentation. Whether for sale
or for free, the documentation process seems to be pretty informal with
JBoss software. The free user documentation is only moderately useful, and
lags behind development on a number of issues. I've seen a lot of complaints
in the forums regarding the same issues in the documentation for sale -
probably the only reason I haven't laid down my 10 spot yet. I could dive
into specific concerns, but what's the point. Everyone's heard them.

I'd like to see documentation that is current and branched for each JBoss
release. That way, if I want to know something about JBoss 3.0 I don't have
to wade through all the 2.4 and 2.2 stuff. And if I were going to pay for
documentation, I don't want a print document that's going to be out of date
in two weeks. I'd rather pay for a subscription service that keeps me up to
date with the latest information all the time.

Mac Rinehart, President
Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc

Legal stuff: SEXTANT TECHNOLOGY CONSULTING is a trademark of Sextant
Technology Consulting, Inc. Any agreement to render services by Mac Rinehart
and/or Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc. is contingent upon an agreement
in writing and signed by all interested parties.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Trawick, James
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 11:28 AM
To: 'David Ward'
Cc: 'marc fleury'; Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net;
Jboss-User@Lists. Sourceforge. Net
Subject: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL


What I'm really interested in is the more corporate questions (we're still
battling for JBoss over Weblogic, and clustering is a real sore point).  How
does JBoss 3 clustering interact with web container clustering?  If they're
completely separate (which I'm pretty sure is the case, as it was last time
I walked through the code), how can I put together a full clustered J2EE
stack with JBoss and (for example) Tomcat/Catalina?  To what level does
JBoss provide high-availability?  What are some failover scenarios?  How
does one initiate a graceful failover for server maintenance?  How
flexible/controllable is JBoss clustering in reality?

There is nothing about these issues in the online docs, which I've been
monitoring pretty closely of late.  The forums and the lists are pure and
simple information overload, and not always accurate.

My point was that there really shouldn't be talk of releasing JBoss 3 for
prime time until there's real documentation for us corporate types, and the
docs for sale aren't real since they're not really available, at least not
to me for whatever reason.  I'd be more than happy to help out in
documenting all this if somebody would point me in the right direction to
find the info.

chris


-Original Message-
From: David Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 1:56 PM
To: Trawick, James
Cc: 'marc fleury'; Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net;
Jboss-User@Lists. Sourceforge. Net
Subject: Re: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL


A combination of these has served well enough for me:

Online docs: http://www.jboss.org/online-manual/HTML/index.html

Forums: http://main.jboss.org/

User List Archive:
http://www.mail-archive.com/jboss-user%40lists.sourceforge.net/

David

--

Trawick, James wrote:
 Will the final release actually include documentation?

 (btw, whoever you went with to sell your JBoss 3 docs should be shot.  i
 went through their process several times, they said they had problems and
 would get back to me.  they never did.  just saying that unless JBoss 3
has
 some form of accessible documentation, i'm afraid that your vision will
 never come to pass.)

 chris

 -Original Message-
 From: marc fleury [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:50 AM
 To: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net
 Cc: Jboss-User@Lists. Sourceforge. Net
 Subject: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL


 jboss one is end of march, and we will shoot for mid april for the final
 release.  this gives us 4 weeks

 gentlemen put your final touches,

 4-3-2...

 marcf


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BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
N:Rinehart;Mac;;President
FN:Mac Rinehart
ORG:Sextant Technology Consulting
TITLE:President
TEL;WORK;VOICE:(503) 251-2855
ADR;WORK:;;7402 SE Yamhill Street;Portland;OR;97215;USA
LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:7402 SE Yamhill Street=0D=0APortland, OR 97215=0D=0AUSA
EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
REV:20011008T212138Z
END:VCARD

RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[Murphy, Patrick]

Flashline has problems dealing with some credit card companies.  I also
personally tried several time to purchase the documentation.  I did finally
get ahold of a Flashline tech who could only tell me that the credit card
company rejected the transaction.  This was with a GM MasterCard.  I finally
did get my employer to purchase the doco with a corporate credit card and
everything worked fine.  So, you may just need a different credit card, or
contact the credit card company to see why they reject the transaction.

Patrick Murphy

-Original Message-
From: Trawick, James [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:33 PM
To: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net; Jboss-User@Lists.
Sourceforge. Net
Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL


Not unfounded, personally proven.

In any case there needs to be some sort of kickstart and executive summary
for the new JBoss features.  If it means that I'll finally get the answers
I'm looking for without holding for three hours and/or putting up with the
hellfire here, I'll be more than happy to help produce that.

I was not aware that the docs for sale were actually available.  My
experience has been the exact opposite.  On three separate occaisons over
the past couple of months I've attempted to purchase the clustering
documentation.  Each time I received a message saying that there was a
problem with their side of the transaction and a support rep would be in
contact with me.  Despite multiple attempts to open communications about
these cases with Flashline, they have failed to do so.  Emails apparently
went to the bit bucket and their phone support reps have proven to be
anywhere from rude to utterly incompetant.  So for my purposes, the docs
aren't real because for whatever reason I can't get to them despite my
willingness to pay the mere $10 for quality documentation.  At least they
didn't charge me for it.

chris

-Original Message-
From: Bill Burke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:10 PM
To: Trawick, James
Cc: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net; Jboss-User@Lists.
Sourceforge. Net
Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL


Clustering docs are available for purchase.

http://www.flashline.com/components/productsbyvendor.jsp?vendorid=1376affi
liateid=260343

I've also written an article on clustering JBoss 2.4.x

http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2001/09/18/jboss.html

Clustering features in JBoss beta:
HA-JNDI, HA-RMI, EJBs(EB, SLSB, SFSB) Failover and load-balancing

The code for HTTP Session Failover is in CVS, but is a work in progress.
Ask Sacha and Julian how it's going.  I don't work on this stuff.  HTTP
Session Failover will probably only be available for Jetty.

I don't know what you're talking about when you say docs for sale aren't
real, because we've already sold at least a 100 copies of the clustering
docs.  Sacha and I have gotten good feedback on these docs so your
complaints are unfounded.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
 Trawick, James
 Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 2:28 PM
 To: 'David Ward'
 Cc: 'marc fleury'; Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net;
 Jboss-User@Lists. Sourceforge. Net
 Subject: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL


 What I'm really interested in is the more corporate questions (we're still
 battling for JBoss over Weblogic, and clustering is a real sore
 point).  How
 does JBoss 3 clustering interact with web container clustering?
 If they're
 completely separate (which I'm pretty sure is the case, as it was
 last time
 I walked through the code), how can I put together a full clustered J2EE
 stack with JBoss and (for example) Tomcat/Catalina?  To what level does
 JBoss provide high-availability?  What are some failover scenarios?  How
 does one initiate a graceful failover for server maintenance?  How
 flexible/controllable is JBoss clustering in reality?


Failover scenarios?
- failed network card
- server crash
- application crash
- What else?

Initiate graceful failover for Server maintainance?
Just gracefully shutdown jboss.  The Cluster dynamically figures out
topology.  Topology information is piggy-backed over invocation responses to
client proxies when it changes.

How flexible/controllable?
We wanted to keep things as simple as possible for the initial release to
reduce code complexity and make sure we get the core things correct.  If you
want to know how flexible, buy the docs.  It's only $10.00.

Bill

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Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[David Ward]

It doesn't always lag - sometimes it's too eager!  Example: I had a 
gripe that 2.4 documentation started disappering off the web site, being 
replaced with 3.0 documentation when 3.0 was only alpha.  I think that 
the 2.4 docs should stay available online - at least until 3.x goes final.

Mac Rinehart wrote:
 The free user documentation is only moderately useful, and
 lags behind development on a number of issues.


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Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[Dan Christopherson]

Very true - the online doc right now says it's for 3.0, but hasn't been 
completely updated yet. Meanwhile it isn't right for 2.4.x anymore 
either. Core team members have said that 2.4.x is going to be around for 
a long time, I think it would behoove us to keep the documentation 
available, at least as a download. I _believe_ it is branched (or at 
least tagged) for the 2.4 branch (can't verify, sourceforge is down so I 
can't browse, behind a firewall, so I can't check through CVS client), 
so it shouldn't be difficult.

-danch

David Ward wrote:
 It doesn't always lag - sometimes it's too eager!  Example: I had a 
 gripe that 2.4 documentation started disappering off the web site, being 
 replaced with 3.0 documentation when 3.0 was only alpha.  I think that 
 the 2.4 docs should stay available online - at least until 3.x goes final.
 
 Mac Rinehart wrote:
 
 The free user documentation is only moderately useful, and
 lags behind development on a number of issues.
 
 
 
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RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[Mac Rinehart]

Another reason for different versions of the documentation for different
releases. The fact is that some people - particularly risk conscious
corporate users - will continue to use 2.4 and not jump to 3.0 until another
rev or two are out the door.

Regarding Open source friendly tech writers - I think that could work, but
it's got to take a little formal organization from the inside too. I can see
tech writers donating their writing services, but they probably would like
to have some established procedures for how to access information, style
conventions and the like. I see that they sort of information is available
for developers, I haven't seen it for tech writers (which doesn't mean much
since I've only been following things actively for a couple of weeks).

I would provide some tech writing services pro-bono, but establishing a
procedure for getting the documentation in place is something that takes a
little organization. What's the status on JBoss Group's process for
developing administration and user documentation?

And BTW, this seems to be a good opportunity for plugging JBoss
Administration  Development, coming out on March 22 and doing excellent on
sales at Amazon already! Congrats. How does the book do in terms of covering
version 3?


Mac Rinehart, President
Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc

Legal stuff: SEXTANT TECHNOLOGY CONSULTING is a trademark of Sextant
Technology Consulting, Inc. Any agreement to render services by Mac Rinehart
and/or Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc. is contingent upon an agreement
in writing and signed by all interested parties.


-Original Message-
From: David Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 1:42 PM
To: Mac Rinehart
Cc: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net; Jboss-User@Lists.
Sourceforge. Net
Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL


It doesn't always lag - sometimes it's too eager!  Example: I had a
gripe that 2.4 documentation started disappering off the web site, being
replaced with 3.0 documentation when 3.0 was only alpha.  I think that
the 2.4 docs should stay available online - at least until 3.x goes final.

Mac Rinehart wrote:
 The free user documentation is only moderately useful, and
 lags behind development on a number of issues.


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RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[marc fleury]

|real, because we've already sold at least a 100 copies of the clustering

468

marcf

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RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[marc fleury]

mr trawick james,

suck my dick

marcf


|-Original Message-
|From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
|Trawick, James
|Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 12:33 PM
|To: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net; Jboss-User@Lists.
|Sourceforge. Net
|Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
|
|
|Not unfounded, personally proven.
|
|In any case there needs to be some sort of kickstart and executive summary
|for the new JBoss features.  If it means that I'll finally get the answers
|I'm looking for without holding for three hours and/or putting up with the
|hellfire here, I'll be more than happy to help produce that.
|
|I was not aware that the docs for sale were actually available.  My
|experience has been the exact opposite.  On three separate occaisons over
|the past couple of months I've attempted to purchase the clustering
|documentation.  Each time I received a message saying that there was a
|problem with their side of the transaction and a support rep would be in
|contact with me.  Despite multiple attempts to open communications about
|these cases with Flashline, they have failed to do so.  Emails apparently
|went to the bit bucket and their phone support reps have proven to be
|anywhere from rude to utterly incompetant.  So for my purposes, the docs
|aren't real because for whatever reason I can't get to them despite my
|willingness to pay the mere $10 for quality documentation.  At least they
|didn't charge me for it.
|
|chris
|
|-Original Message-
|From: Bill Burke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
|Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:10 PM
|To: Trawick, James
|Cc: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net; Jboss-User@Lists.
|Sourceforge. Net
|Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
|
|
|Clustering docs are available for purchase.
|
|http://www.flashline.com/components/productsbyvendor.jsp?vendorid=
|1376affi
|liateid=260343
|
|I've also written an article on clustering JBoss 2.4.x
|
|http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2001/09/18/jboss.html
|
|Clustering features in JBoss beta:
|HA-JNDI, HA-RMI, EJBs(EB, SLSB, SFSB) Failover and load-balancing
|
|The code for HTTP Session Failover is in CVS, but is a work in progress.
|Ask Sacha and Julian how it's going.  I don't work on this stuff.  HTTP
|Session Failover will probably only be available for Jetty.
|
|I don't know what you're talking about when you say docs for sale aren't
|real, because we've already sold at least a 100 copies of the clustering
|docs.  Sacha and I have gotten good feedback on these docs so your
|complaints are unfounded.
|
| -Original Message-
| From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
| Trawick, James
| Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 2:28 PM
| To: 'David Ward'
| Cc: 'marc fleury'; Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net;
| Jboss-User@Lists. Sourceforge. Net
| Subject: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
|
|
| What I'm really interested in is the more corporate questions 
|(we're still
| battling for JBoss over Weblogic, and clustering is a real sore
| point).  How
| does JBoss 3 clustering interact with web container clustering?
| If they're
| completely separate (which I'm pretty sure is the case, as it was
| last time
| I walked through the code), how can I put together a full clustered J2EE
| stack with JBoss and (for example) Tomcat/Catalina?  To what level does
| JBoss provide high-availability?  What are some failover scenarios?  How
| does one initiate a graceful failover for server maintenance?  How
| flexible/controllable is JBoss clustering in reality?
|
|
|Failover scenarios?
|- failed network card
|- server crash
|- application crash
|- What else?
|
|Initiate graceful failover for Server maintainance?
|Just gracefully shutdown jboss.  The Cluster dynamically figures out
|topology.  Topology information is piggy-backed over invocation 
|responses to
|client proxies when it changes.
|
|How flexible/controllable?
|We wanted to keep things as simple as possible for the initial release to
|reduce code complexity and make sure we get the core things 
|correct.  If you
|want to know how flexible, buy the docs.  It's only $10.00.
|
|Bill
|
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RE: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[marc fleury]

danch,

get wit the program,

the 10 bucks doco is 2.4 only and the book as well

marcf

|-Original Message-
|From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Dan
|Christopherson
|Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 2:16 PM
|To: David Ward
|Cc: Mac Rinehart; Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net;
|Jboss-User@Lists. Sourceforge. Net
|Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
|
|
|Very true - the online doc right now says it's for 3.0, but hasn't been
|completely updated yet. Meanwhile it isn't right for 2.4.x anymore
|either. Core team members have said that 2.4.x is going to be around for
|a long time, I think it would behoove us to keep the documentation
|available, at least as a download. I _believe_ it is branched (or at
|least tagged) for the 2.4 branch (can't verify, sourceforge is down so I
|can't browse, behind a firewall, so I can't check through CVS client),
|so it shouldn't be difficult.
|
|-danch
|
|David Ward wrote:
| It doesn't always lag - sometimes it's too eager!  Example: I had a
| gripe that 2.4 documentation started disappering off the web site, being
| replaced with 3.0 documentation when 3.0 was only alpha.  I think that
| the 2.4 docs should stay available online - at least until 3.x
|goes final.
|
| Mac Rinehart wrote:
|
| The free user documentation is only moderately useful, and
| lags behind development on a number of issues.
|
|
|
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|
|
|
|
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Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[David Jencks]

I think it would take someone locating or writing a j2ee based wiki that
works fine on jboss/jetty, demonstrating it somewhere, and getting marc to
say that looks good, lets do it

I played with veryquickwiki for a little while, which seemed to work fine,
but it is file based and may not be terribly robust (I have no evidence it
isn't, but it is so simple!!).  There are some other j2ee wikis: I don't
know if any support saving history in a db, which I think would be useful.

david jencks

On 2002.03.14 23:51:36 -0500 Jeff Tulley wrote:
 What would it take to get a wiki up and running?  I think that is a very
 good idea.  It is worth experimenting with, anyway.  Something like that
 is incremental and if the right categories were created, people would
 have a place to quickly contribute without having to be a committer.  I
 like the idea.  Then some of that could probably be organized and
 funnelled into a formal doc, if we decide it would be better, but even
 if that never happened, what the heck, it would still be pretty good.
 
 Jeff Tulley  ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
 (801)861-5322
 Novell, Inc., the leading provider of Net business solutions
 http://www.novell.com
  David Jencks [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/14/02 18:12 PM 
 On 2002.03.14 19:11:13 -0500 Mac Rinehart wrote:
 
 For what its worth I think the best format for something like this would
 be a wiki, so that updating it doesn't need to involve cvs commits and
 rebuilding the website.  Ideal would be a version controlled j2ee wiki
 running in jboss/jetty;-)  Marc hasn't been thrilled yet with this idea
 (user howto wiki), but probably if someone made it happen his attitude
 might change.
 
 
 Thanks!
 david jencks
  
  Mac Rinehart, President
  Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc
  
  Legal stuff: SEXTANT TECHNOLOGY CONSULTING is a trademark of Sextant
  Technology Consulting, Inc. Any agreement to render services by Mac
  Rinehart
  and/or Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc. is contingent upon an
  agreement
  in writing and signed by all interested parties.
  
  
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
 David
  Jencks
  Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:22 PM
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
  
  
  Ummm
  In your previous post you wrote
  I've seen a lot of
  complaints
  in the forums regarding the same issues in the documentation for sale
 -
  probably the only reason I haven't laid down my 10 spot yet. 
  ...
  And if I were going to pay for
  documentation, I don't want a print document that's going to be out of
  date
  in two weeks. 
  
  A couple of minutes of investigation would have revealed that the for
 pay
  2.4.4 documentation you are declining to buy so as to, perhaps, show
 your
  support of JBoss and encourage the developers to write more
  documentation,
  is the exact same book that you are applauding at Amazon:
  
  http://www.jboss.org/doco.jsp
  
  In order to support the development of JBoss and ensure that the
  documentation remains up to date, we offer a PDF version of the JBoss
  book
  to be published by SAMS publishing. 
  
  Following the link also brings you to the Comperehensive Documentation
  Subscription at the very top of the page, really hard to miss.
  
  david jencks
  
  On 2002.03.14 17:50:27 -0500 Mac Rinehart wrote:
   Another reason for different versions of the documentation for
  different
   releases. The fact is that some people - particularly risk conscious
   corporate users - will continue to use 2.4 and not jump to 3.0 until
   another
   rev or two are out the door.
  
   Regarding Open source friendly tech writers - I think that could
 work,
   but
   it's got to take a little formal organization from the inside too. I
  can
   see
   tech writers donating their writing services, but they probably
 would
   like
   to have some established procedures for how to access information,
  style
   conventions and the like. I see that they sort of information is
   available
   for developers, I haven't seen it for tech writers (which doesn't
 mean
   much
   since I've only been following things actively for a couple of
 weeks).
  
   I would provide some tech writing services pro-bono, but
 establishing a
   procedure for getting the documentation in place is something that
  takes
   a
   little organization. What's the status on JBoss Group's process for
   developing administration and user documentation?
  
   And BTW, this seems to be a good opportunity for plugging JBoss
   Administration  Development, coming out on March 22 and doing
  excellent
   on
   sales at Amazon already! Congrats. How does the book do in terms of
   covering
   version 3?
  
  
   Mac Rinehart, President
   Sextant Technology Consulting, Inc
  
   Legal stuff: SEXTANT TECHNOLOGY CONSULTING is a trademark of Sextant
   Technology Consulting, Inc. Any agreement to render services by Mac
   Rinehart
   and/or Sextant

Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL

[danch]

We're talking about the volunteer maintained doco. Look at the site, 
http://www.jboss.org/online-manual/HTML/index.html

The title is JBoss 3.0 documentation. The disclaimer says that it was 
developed early in the project and is out of date, but the date on it 
is Jan 15, 2002.

danch

marc fleury wrote:

 danch,
 
 get wit the program,
 
 the 10 bucks doco is 2.4 only and the book as well
 
 marcf
 
 |-Original Message-
 |From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 |[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Dan
 |Christopherson
 |Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 2:16 PM
 |To: David Ward
 |Cc: Mac Rinehart; Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net;
 |Jboss-User@Lists. Sourceforge. Net
 |Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] RE: [JBoss-user] JBOSS 3.x FINAL
 |
 |
 |Very true - the online doc right now says it's for 3.0, but hasn't been
 |completely updated yet. Meanwhile it isn't right for 2.4.x anymore
 |either. Core team members have said that 2.4.x is going to be around for
 |a long time, I think it would behoove us to keep the documentation
 |available, at least as a download. I _believe_ it is branched (or at
 |least tagged) for the 2.4 branch (can't verify, sourceforge is down so I
 |can't browse, behind a firewall, so I can't check through CVS client),
 |so it shouldn't be difficult.
 |
 |-danch
 |
 |David Ward wrote:
 | It doesn't always lag - sometimes it's too eager!  Example: I had a
 | gripe that 2.4 documentation started disappering off the web site, being
 | replaced with 3.0 documentation when 3.0 was only alpha.  I think that
 | the 2.4 docs should stay available online - at least until 3.x
 |goes final.
 |
 | Mac Rinehart wrote:
 |
 | The free user documentation is only moderately useful, and
 | lags behind development on a number of issues.
 |
 |
 |
 | ___
 | JBoss-user mailing list
 | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 | https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-user
 |
 |
 |
 |
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