Re: [jug-discussion] Java Rich Clients with Flex 2.0?

[josh zeidner]

--- Steven Elliott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 9/21/06 19:57, josh zeidner
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
They claim that using HTTP streaming effects the
  quality of the video in some way.  Have you
  experienced this?  I know that Adobe would have
 some
  serious problems by introducing incompatibilities
 at
  that level.
 
 I'm not what you mean with streaming effects. 

  Steven, I think I misphrased that.  This may be
better:

  They claim that using HTTP streaming effects the
quality of the video in some way. 

 -jmz


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Re: [jug-discussion] Java Rich Clients with Flex 2.0?

[josh zeidner]

--- Steven Elliott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 BUT one thing puzzles me.  You would think Adobe
 would not make such a big
 deal about the quality of their streaming server for
 two reasons.  One is as
 I have mentioned they don't have multicast or even
 multicast managment API.
 This immediately removes them from the serious,
 enterprise tier and firmly
 on the small corporate tier.

  I got the feeling that this was some kind of
marketing quirk at Adobe.  I think that wide support
for several streaming formats is solid
technologically, but Adobe wants to promote their FMS
product.

  As far as Multicasting goes, this is really an issue
that needs to be addressed in much wider venues.  I
don't see why Adobe would even bother to support
Multicast when few ISPs carry multicast packets.  So
such a technology could only be utilized in a local
area deployment scenario( corporate training materials
and video conferencing perhaps ).  The reasons for the
lack of multicast support are partly political and I
wont expound on them here unless explicitly requested.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_Multicast

 
 But more importantly is that FMS does not support
 Quality of Service (QoS)
 because Adobe uses its own proprietary (again)
 streaming protocol, RTMP.
 I'm pretty sure (99.9%) that Cisco, Brocade, et al
 only provide QoS for
 standards based streaming protocols, RTP/RTSP.  So
 it is more than slightly
 oxymoronic that Adobe claims a higher level of
 quality when they don't even
 support QoS.
 
 have a great day! ... get some work done;)

  Steven, I appreciate your input here.  Thanks.  

  -jmz



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Re: [jug-discussion] OT: Google and Yahoo

[josh zeidner]

  I guess its some kind of coincidence that I am
noticing a high degree of informal commentary on UG
lists lately.  You do realize that this kind of thing
reflects badly on customer and employer appeal?

  For instance, I could say some kind of offhand
comment like they'll give a greencard to just about
any slob who scraped up enough money to bribe the
DOL!.  Obviously, some may be deeply offended by such
a statement.

  Although it is certainly the prerogative of a group
to govern themselves the way they see fit, in the case
of a JUG, there is the issue of the exploitation of
the legitimacy that the JUG term provides.  I'm
wondering if there are any regulations that deal with
this issue in the JCP or whether the JUG term is an
entirely public-domain all-purpose term that can be
utilized by any party.  I would assume that if there
are no such regulations then either 1) JUGs will
likely degrade in relevance( a process already in
effect ), 2) such regulations will be imposed in the
future.  The problems of such exploitation extend to
all members of a local area.

  Thanks,
 
Josh Zeidner

 
--- Nick Lesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 To Tim and Jon:
 
 I nearly fell out of my freaking chair at White and
 Nerdy.
 
 To the rest of you:
 If you haven't seen it, it's a must see.
 
 Back to Tim:
 
 Even Google hasn't solved the problem of how to
 migrate all of your  
 friends and relatives from your old address.
 Besides, this way I can  
 spy on their new UI!
 
 FWIW: I couldn't survive without GMail for my work
 account. Only  
 Gmail can handle the volume of internal mail I get.
 
 Back to the group:
 
 Oh, and anyone who's in the area for Hackday's
 welcome to come and  
 visit the 'plex. Dunno what Yahoo has planned for
 HackDay, but I  
 guarantee our cafe food is better on the average
 Tuesday than it is  
 at Yahoo's special event.
 
 That's right. I went there.
 
 Nick
 
 
 On Sep 19, 2006, at 2:03 PM, Tim Colson ((tcolson))
 wrote:
 
  Lol... am I the only one laughing that Nick sent
 this from his  
  yahoo.com
  email?
 
  Hojillion -- number of hos you can fit in your
 car ... hmm, in my
  two-seater that'd only be one and she'd have to
 sit on the wife's
  lap...which would most likely end badly. grin
 
  It's too bad GOOG doesn't seem to have a remote
 worker option... or
 
  FYI... I'll be at the Yahoo Open Hack Day
 (hackday.org) in the Bay  
  Area
  next weekend. Anybody else going to be there?
 
  Nick? Or are you too white and nerdy?
 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7939447080926152362q=white
 
  +and+
  nerdy
 
  -Timo
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Nick Lesiecki [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 9:23 AM
  To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
  Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] OT: Fwd:
 Potentially
  interesting Seattle Times story
 
  I think this is an appropriate time to mention
 that Google
  has an office in Phoenix, and if you want to be
 part of a
  team that wins a
  hojillion* dollar award, you should send me your
 resume. I've
  already helped one of the Tucson JUG'ers find
 employ at
  Google, and I hope to shepherd a few more into
 our Island of
  Snacks in Tempe.
 
  Cheers,
 
  Nick
 
  * Hojillion:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hojillion
 
  P.S. This is my one chance for famous name
 dropping: I was in a
  meeting w/ Guido Van Rossum yesterday. WOot!
 
  P.P.S. Despite the tone of this email, I am
 serious. Send me your
  resume.
 
 

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  To unsubscribe, e-mail:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
 

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 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [jug-discussion] list moderation

[josh zeidner]

Warner,

  I am not alluding towards anything or anyone that
was not directly stated in the post.  The message was
an inquiry.  How is the JUG term managed?  Does SUN or
JCP reserve jurisdiction over groups that use this
term?

Thanks,

  JMZ


--- Warner Onstine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 First and foremost I feel that this is a list of
 colleagues who can  
 freely exchange ideas and thoughts (mostly relating
 to Java, but  
 definitely not exclusively Java). In most cases I
 will not intervene  
 as any kind of moderator, but I will feel obliged
 (as should others)  
 when the list gets involved in a flame-war which I
 personally feel  
 violates the spirit of this list as well as the
 overall good nature  
 that we have enjoyed.
 
 If you feel like making that sort of comment I won't
 stop you as it  
 doesn't reflect poorly on the JUG itself, it
 reflects poorly on you.  
 And again, personally, I have seen nothing in any of
 the recent  
 comments that reflects poorly on anyone here, so I'm
 not sure exactly  
 what you're referring to.
 
 -warner
 
 
   I guess its some kind of coincidence that I am
  noticing a high degree of informal commentary on
 UG
  lists lately.  You do realize that this kind of
 thing
  reflects badly on customer and employer appeal?
 
For instance, I could say some kind of offhand
  comment like they'll give a greencard to just
 about
  any slob who scraped up enough money to bribe the
  DOL!.  Obviously, some may be deeply offended by
 such
  a statement.
 
Although it is certainly the prerogative of a
 group
  to govern themselves the way they see fit, in the
 case
  of a JUG, there is the issue of the exploitation
 of
  the legitimacy that the JUG term provides.  I'm
  wondering if there are any regulations that deal
 with
  this issue in the JCP or whether the JUG term is
 an
  entirely public-domain all-purpose term that can
 be
  utilized by any party.  I would assume that if
 there
  are no such regulations then either 1) JUGs will
  likely degrade in relevance( a process already in
  effect ), 2) such regulations will be imposed in
 the
  future.  The problems of such exploitation extend
 to
  all members of a local area.
 
Thanks,
 
  Josh Zeidner
 

-
 To unsubscribe, e-mail:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 For additional commands, e-mail:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 


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RE: [jug-discussion] OT: Google and Yahoo

[josh zeidner]

 Yes, very entertaining.

 Although the actual laws and guidelines that govern
these issues remain to be seen( in this thread  ), I
do find that fostering an environment of informal
discussion etc. provides an excellent cover for
industry jackasses to effect the community in very
negative ways.  

 Back to the original question: Does Sun manage these
problems? JCP? or the local community members?

 thanks,  jmz

--- Michael Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Attention Attention, anyone reading this message
 without the intent of
 evaluating the javaness of it please disregard.
 
 Michael Oliver
 CTO
 Alarius Systems LLC
 6800 E. Lake Mead Blvd, #1096
 Las Vegas, NV 89156
 Phone:(702)866-9034
 Cell:(518)378-6154
 Fax:(702)974-0341
  
 -Original Message-
 From: Art Gramlich
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 11:49 AM
 To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
 Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] OT: Google and Yahoo
 
 Sorry Mr. Zeidner, informal developer-related
 commentary is indeed  
 inappropriate content for a USERS GROUP.
 In fact, I have seen on this list that at certain
 JUG meetings,  
 discussion on non-Java technologies have been
 discussed.
 Everyone needs to get back to working on corporate
 project #101  
 immediately. And make sure it's written in Java(tm).
 
 
 I'll go back to lurking again.
 
 Art
 
 
 
 
 On Sep 21, 2006, at 10:36 AM, josh zeidner wrote:
 
 
 
I guess its some kind of coincidence that I am
  noticing a high degree of informal commentary on
 UG
  lists lately.  You do realize that this kind of
 thing
  reflects badly on customer and employer appeal?
 
For instance, I could say some kind of offhand
  comment like they'll give a greencard to just
 about
  any slob who scraped up enough money to bribe the
  DOL!.  Obviously, some may be deeply offended by
 such
  a statement.
 
Although it is certainly the prerogative of a
 group
  to govern themselves the way they see fit, in the
 case
  of a JUG, there is the issue of the exploitation
 of
  the legitimacy that the JUG term provides.  I'm
  wondering if there are any regulations that deal
 with
  this issue in the JCP or whether the JUG term is
 an
  entirely public-domain all-purpose term that can
 be
  utilized by any party.  I would assume that if
 there
  are no such regulations then either 1) JUGs will
  likely degrade in relevance( a process already in
  effect ), 2) such regulations will be imposed in
 the
  future.  The problems of such exploitation extend
 to
  all members of a local area.
 
Thanks,
 
  Josh Zeidner
 
 
  --- Nick Lesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  To Tim and Jon:
 
  I nearly fell out of my freaking chair at White
 and
  Nerdy.
 
  To the rest of you:
  If you haven't seen it, it's a must see.
 
  Back to Tim:
 
  Even Google hasn't solved the problem of how to
  migrate all of your
  friends and relatives from your old address.
  Besides, this way I can
  spy on their new UI!
 
  FWIW: I couldn't survive without GMail for my
 work
  account. Only
  Gmail can handle the volume of internal mail I
 get.
 
  Back to the group:
 
  Oh, and anyone who's in the area for Hackday's
  welcome to come and
  visit the 'plex. Dunno what Yahoo has planned for
  HackDay, but I
  guarantee our cafe food is better on the average
  Tuesday than it is
  at Yahoo's special event.
 
  That's right. I went there.
 
  Nick
 
 
  On Sep 19, 2006, at 2:03 PM, Tim Colson
 ((tcolson))
  wrote:
 
  Lol... am I the only one laughing that Nick sent
  this from his
  yahoo.com
  email?
 
  Hojillion -- number of hos you can fit in your
  car ... hmm, in my
  two-seater that'd only be one and she'd have to
  sit on the wife's
  lap...which would most likely end badly. grin
 
  It's too bad GOOG doesn't seem to have a remote
  worker option... or
 
  FYI... I'll be at the Yahoo Open Hack Day
  (hackday.org) in the Bay
  Area
  next weekend. Anybody else going to be there?
 
  Nick? Or are you too white and nerdy?
 
 
 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7939447080926152362q=white
 
  +and+
  nerdy
 
  -Timo
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Nick Lesiecki
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 9:23 AM
  To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
  Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] OT: Fwd:
  Potentially
  interesting Seattle Times story
 
  I think this is an appropriate time to mention
  that Google
  has an office in Phoenix, and if you want to be
  part of a
  team that wins a
  hojillion* dollar award, you should send me
 your
  resume. I've
  already helped one of the Tucson JUG'ers find
  employ at
  Google, and I hope to shepherd a few more into
  our Island of
  Snacks in Tempe.
 
  Cheers,
 
  Nick
 
  * Hojillion:
 
 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hojillion
 
  P.S. This is my one chance for famous name
  dropping: I was in a
  meeting w/ Guido Van Rossum yesterday. WOot!
 
  P.P.S. Despite the tone of this email, I am
  serious

Re: [jug-discussion] OT: Google and Yahoo

[josh zeidner]

Thanks Chad.  Your 'Beavis and Butthead' reference
certainly helped to support your statement.

-jmz


--- Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 9/21/06, josh zeidner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
  JUGs will
  likely degrade in relevance( a process already in
  effect )
 
 Huh-Huh.  Huh-Huh.  He said jugs.
 
 Dunno about you, but jugs are still very high in
 relevance to me.
 
 Sorry, just doing my part to keep the quality of
 discussions on this
 group high...
 
 -- Chad


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Re: [jug-discussion] list moderation

[josh zeidner]

  Interesting.  Thanks Warner!

  Its surprising the JCP doesn't cover JUGs, given the
level of governance it provides for specifications and
the like.

 -jmz


--- Warner Onstine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 To my knowledge it isn't directly managed at all.
 There are now  
 groups on the dev.java.net for all JUGs but there
 isn't any kind of  
 overarching management.
 
 -warner
 
 On Sep 21, 2006, at 11:02 AM, josh zeidner wrote:
 
 
  Warner,
 
I am not alluding towards anything or anyone
 that
  was not directly stated in the post.  The message
 was
  an inquiry.  How is the JUG term managed?  Does
 SUN or
  JCP reserve jurisdiction over groups that use this
  term?
 
  Thanks,
 
JMZ
 
 
  --- Warner Onstine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  First and foremost I feel that this is a list of
  colleagues who can
  freely exchange ideas and thoughts (mostly
 relating
  to Java, but
  definitely not exclusively Java). In most cases I
  will not intervene
  as any kind of moderator, but I will feel obliged
  (as should others)
  when the list gets involved in a flame-war which
 I
  personally feel
  violates the spirit of this list as well as the
  overall good nature
  that we have enjoyed.
 
  If you feel like making that sort of comment I
 won't
  stop you as it
  doesn't reflect poorly on the JUG itself, it
  reflects poorly on you.
  And again, personally, I have seen nothing in any
 of
  the recent
  comments that reflects poorly on anyone here, so
 I'm
  not sure exactly
  what you're referring to.
 
  -warner
 
 
   I guess its some kind of coincidence that I am
  noticing a high degree of informal commentary on
  UG
  lists lately.  You do realize that this kind of
  thing
  reflects badly on customer and employer appeal?
 
For instance, I could say some kind of offhand
  comment like they'll give a greencard to just
  about
  any slob who scraped up enough money to bribe
 the
  DOL!.  Obviously, some may be deeply offended
 by
  such
  a statement.
 
Although it is certainly the prerogative of a
  group
  to govern themselves the way they see fit, in
 the
  case
  of a JUG, there is the issue of the exploitation
  of
  the legitimacy that the JUG term provides.  I'm
  wondering if there are any regulations that deal
  with
  this issue in the JCP or whether the JUG term is
  an
  entirely public-domain all-purpose term that can
  be
  utilized by any party.  I would assume that if
  there
  are no such regulations then either 1) JUGs will
  likely degrade in relevance( a process already
 in
  effect ), 2) such regulations will be imposed in
  the
  future.  The problems of such exploitation
 extend
  to
  all members of a local area.
 
Thanks,
 
  Josh Zeidner
 
 
 

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  To unsubscribe, e-mail:
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  For additional commands, e-mail:
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
 
 
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 For additional commands, e-mail:
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Re: [jug-discussion] Java Rich Clients with Flex 2.0?

[josh zeidner]

--- Tim Colson (tcolson) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 So now that the Flex 2.0 SDK and deployment to a
 single CPU is free...

  I'm considering using Flex for a project.  What are
the terms of this 'free Single CPU' license?  If its
free why don't I just get another free one for another
CPU?

  -jmz



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Re: [jug-discussion] OT: Google and Yahoo

[josh zeidner]

 Thanks, Jon.  Your sentence fragment has been noted
by the authorities.  -jmz


--- Jon Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 i wish we could get an opinion out of this group
 
 On Sep 21, 2006, at 11:16 AM, josh zeidner wrote:
 
 
 
   Yes, very entertaining.
 
   Although the actual laws and guidelines that
 govern
  these issues remain to be seen( in this thread  ),
 I
  do find that fostering an environment of informal
  discussion etc. provides an excellent cover for
  industry jackasses to effect the community in very
  negative ways.
 
   Back to the original question: Does Sun manage
 these
  problems? JCP? or the local community members?
 
   thanks,  jmz
 
  --- Michael Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
  Attention Attention, anyone reading this message
  without the intent of
  evaluating the javaness of it please disregard.
 
  Michael Oliver
  CTO
  Alarius Systems LLC
  6800 E. Lake Mead Blvd, #1096
  Las Vegas, NV 89156
  Phone:(702)866-9034
  Cell:(518)378-6154
  Fax:(702)974-0341
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Art Gramlich
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 11:49 AM
  To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
  Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] OT: Google and
 Yahoo
 
  Sorry Mr. Zeidner, informal developer-related
  commentary is indeed
  inappropriate content for a USERS GROUP.
  In fact, I have seen on this list that at certain
  JUG meetings,
  discussion on non-Java technologies have been
  discussed.
  Everyone needs to get back to working on
 corporate
  project #101
  immediately. And make sure it's written in
 Java(tm).
 
 
  I'll go back to lurking again.
 
  Art
 
 
 
 
  On Sep 21, 2006, at 10:36 AM, josh zeidner wrote:
 
 
 
I guess its some kind of coincidence that I am
  noticing a high degree of informal commentary on
  UG
  lists lately.  You do realize that this kind of
  thing
  reflects badly on customer and employer appeal?
 
For instance, I could say some kind of offhand
  comment like they'll give a greencard to just
  about
  any slob who scraped up enough money to bribe
 the
  DOL!.  Obviously, some may be deeply offended
 by
  such
  a statement.
 
Although it is certainly the prerogative of a
  group
  to govern themselves the way they see fit, in
 the
  case
  of a JUG, there is the issue of the exploitation
  of
  the legitimacy that the JUG term provides.  I'm
  wondering if there are any regulations that deal
  with
  this issue in the JCP or whether the JUG term is
  an
  entirely public-domain all-purpose term that can
  be
  utilized by any party.  I would assume that if
  there
  are no such regulations then either 1) JUGs will
  likely degrade in relevance( a process already
 in
  effect ), 2) such regulations will be imposed in
  the
  future.  The problems of such exploitation
 extend
  to
  all members of a local area.
 
Thanks,
 
  Josh Zeidner
 
 
  --- Nick Lesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  To Tim and Jon:
 
  I nearly fell out of my freaking chair at
 White
  and
  Nerdy.
 
  To the rest of you:
  If you haven't seen it, it's a must see.
 
  Back to Tim:
 
  Even Google hasn't solved the problem of how to
  migrate all of your
  friends and relatives from your old address.
  Besides, this way I can
  spy on their new UI!
 
  FWIW: I couldn't survive without GMail for my
  work
  account. Only
  Gmail can handle the volume of internal mail I
  get.
 
  Back to the group:
 
  Oh, and anyone who's in the area for Hackday's
  welcome to come and
  visit the 'plex. Dunno what Yahoo has planned
 for
  HackDay, but I
  guarantee our cafe food is better on the
 average
  Tuesday than it is
  at Yahoo's special event.
 
  That's right. I went there.
 
  Nick
 
 
  On Sep 19, 2006, at 2:03 PM, Tim Colson
  ((tcolson))
  wrote:
 
  Lol... am I the only one laughing that Nick
 sent
  this from his
  yahoo.com
  email?
 
  Hojillion -- number of hos you can fit in
 your
  car ... hmm, in my
  two-seater that'd only be one and she'd have
 to
  sit on the wife's
  lap...which would most likely end badly.
 grin
 
  It's too bad GOOG doesn't seem to have a
 remote
  worker option... or
 
  FYI... I'll be at the Yahoo Open Hack Day
  (hackday.org) in the Bay
  Area
  next weekend. Anybody else going to be there?
 
  Nick? Or are you too white and nerdy?
 
 
 
 
 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7939447080926152362q=white
 
  +and+
  nerdy
 
=== message truncated ===


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RE: [jug-discussion] Java Rich Clients with Flex 2.0?

[josh zeidner]

Hi Tim,

 I'm still struggling with Flex vs. Laszlo.  Laszlo
poses no licensing problems and long term costs are
predictable.  Furthermore it offers a deployment
scenario that does not require Flash( I'm not sure how
much this feature weighs in its favor ).  From a Java
perspective Laszlo still does appear more attractive. 
Whether the Laszlo community evolves into a scene with
rich offerings I feel is dependent on the actions of
Adobe.  Right now Adobe has its hands full as they
appear to be taking a swipe at Microsoft. This one
could maim Microsoft permanently.  If they win this
battle, Adobe stock valuation will expand
significantly.

  Naturally, in this situation Microsoft would offer
indirect support of Laszlo, but being that it is based
in Java this would be a difficult move for them.

http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3633501

 In your professional opinion, which platform offers
more for ~20K budget?  ~50K?  ~100K?

  Thanks,

Josh Zeidner


--- Tim Colson (tcolson) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Josh wrote:
I'm considering using Flex for a project.  What
 are the 
  terms of this 'free Single CPU' license?  If its
 free why 
  don't I just get another free one for another CPU?
 
 My understanding of the license is that you can run
 one App on one
 machine with One CPU. It forbids running the same
 app on many machines
 (ex. kiosks or clustered). 
 
 Actually...that's not quite the full story.
 
 You *can* run the same app on a cluster/kiosk...if
 it does *not* use the
 Flex Express Data Services component. If you just
 have a Flex/Flash file
 that's connectig to basic HTTP-based web services...
 you can run it with
 as much load as you wish.
 
 Flex Data Services Express is the server component
 that provides
 declarative security, a binary RMI with auto
 marshalling/serializaing of
 objects, auto-conversion between Java and
 Actionscript objects,
 proxy-whitelists, and more. 
 
 I'm betting the assumption by Adobe is that folks
 will try raw free Flex
 and like it. Then they will try free FDSE and like
 that more, and
 eventually need to scale up and spend $20K/CPU for
 the Enterprise
 version. If that works or not...time will tell.
 
 Tim
 

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Re: [jug-discussion] OT: Google and Yahoo

[josh zeidner]

  Jon,

   I think all your statements are valid here. 
Remember, I was initially asking a question.  I am
certainly not looking to criticize the relationships
between list members, but please keep in mind that
having an official and functional resource for local
Java developers makes everyones life a little bit
easier, and contributes to all of our collective
worth.  This is the position that I am coming from.

  Sincerely, 

   Josh Zeidner


--- Jon Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 What we all need is more people who take themselves
 too seriously.
 This group is what it is.  I'm sure that most of us
 have worked  
 together at some point and understand each others
 capacities and  
 interests and I have seen some great and merited
 discussions on this  
 list.  I've also seen political statements from some
 but that goes  
 with the territory.  Part of what makes being a
 developer in this  
 town fun is the cross pollination and varying
 interests and  
 experiences of colleagues which is why I value the
 list and the  
 people on it.
 I know in a heartbeat I could go to many of these
 listers with a  
 question and get a good defended answer, and I
 appreciate that it  
 keeps us talking even when Erik moves to Virginia or
 Nick to Cali.
 But the last thing we need is another special
 interest group that  
 takes itself too seriously
 IMHO
 And I love Beavis and Butthead references but I
 prefer Family Guy  
 (and in many ways I think that taste is pretty
 consistent across Java  
 nerds).
 
 Back to cloaking a safe distance from Art.
 Jt
 
 On Sep 21, 2006, at 11:39 AM, josh zeidner wrote:
 
 
  Thanks Chad.  Your 'Beavis and Butthead' reference
  certainly helped to support your statement.
 
  -jmz
 
 
  --- Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  On 9/21/06, josh zeidner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
  JUGs will
  likely degrade in relevance( a process already
 in
  effect )
 
  Huh-Huh.  Huh-Huh.  He said jugs.
 
  Dunno about you, but jugs are still very high in
  relevance to me.
 
  Sorry, just doing my part to keep the quality of
  discussions on this
  group high...
 
  -- Chad
 
 
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[jug-discussion] Tim, just curious, who 'owns' a thread?

[josh zeidner]

--- Tim Colson (tcolson) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Josh -- if you are sincere about starting a
 discussion on the topic of
 JCP and JUG Goverance, then by all means walk your
 own talk and start a
 new thread with a relevant subject line.

  Tim, just curious, who 'owns' a thread?

  -jmz




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RE: [jug-discussion] just curious - flamebait

[josh zeidner]

  Flamebait?  Thats an interesting way to avoid having
to state anything that might tarnish your reputation
as  the local genius.  

  -jmz

ot: you guys are load of laughs

--- Tim Colson (tcolson) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 
   Josh -- if you are sincere about starting a
 discussion on 
  the topic of 
   JCP and JUG Goverance, then by all means walk
 your own talk 
  and start 
   a new thread with a relevant subject line.
  
Tim, just curious, who 'owns' a thread?
 

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Re: [jug-discussion] Flex 2.0 vs Dojo vs Google API

[josh zeidner]

--- Steven Elliott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 9/21/06 12:03, Tim Colson (tcolson)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  I specifically asked if based on the new free
 licenses anyone is
  considering using Flex as a front end with Java.
 I'm not interested in
  DOJO or Google API or Laszlo or Project Foo.
 
 Well at the risk of being accused of being a
 hijacker and being assaulted by
 ALLCAPS what would I get from Flex2.0 1cpu license
 that I can't get from
 Laszlo which is not only free to put on as many cpus
 as you want but is also
 open source and not left to pricing whims of Adobe
 (free today - $$$
 tomorrow)?
 
  interest++;

  -jmz


ps. damn it takes a lot of work to get a question
resolved around here.  ill say one thing, places like
wikipedia work because there are a set of codes that
are followed.  given, it has its problems, it is one
of the more effective venues.  and don't get me wrong,
you guys are a load of laughs and Ill be sure to
consider contacting you for any catastrophic project
failures in the future.

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RE: [jug-discussion] just curious - flamebait

[josh zeidner]

  by the International News Group Code of Ethics, you
must renounce your title of Local Genius as you have
failed to take on a battle of the wits.

  Have a nice day.  Next time I have a half day to
waste I will consider posting to this group.

  -jmz
 

--- Tim Colson (tcolson) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 So nice of you to acknowledge my genius, but the
 thread still is what it
 is, flamebait. I'll pass on discussing it.  
 
  -Original Message-
  From: josh zeidner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:48 PM
  To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
  Subject: RE: [jug-discussion] just curious -
 flamebait
  
  
Flamebait?  Thats an interesting way to avoid
 having to 
  state anything that might tarnish your reputation
 as  the 
  local genius.  
  
-jmz
  
  ot: you guys are load of laughs
  
 Josh -- if you are sincere about starting a
   discussion on
the topic of
 JCP and JUG Goverance, then by all means
 walk
   your own talk
and start
 a new thread with a relevant subject line.

  Tim, just curious, who 'owns' a thread?
 

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[jug-discussion] JUG Poll: Who got work done today?

[josh zeidner]

Recent studies have shown that few people who read
this list actually got any work done today.  Thanks
guys!

-jmz


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RE: [jug-discussion] Java Rich Clients with Flex 2.0?

[josh zeidner]

 Tim,

   do you have anything online that you've built?

 -jmz


--- Tim Colson (tcolson) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  I hadn't followed this development.tell us
 more. To where 
  has the licensing fee moved? (i.e. what are the
 new 
  deployment/licensing terms?).
 
 As you saw, I described them a bit in a prev email
 that'll probably hit
 your box a few seconds after you sent this one. :-)
 
 I'll add that the optional IDE, Flex Builder is a
 separate charge. (It
 is based on Eclipse, and Mr. Green will be happy to
 hear I think they
 did a great job with it. I like it. It's not as good
 as if they'd used
 Intellij of course... but I digress. grin)
 
 If you need the chart components, they also cost a
 few hundred bucks
 per developer. 
 
  Also, does Flex require its own server?, or only
 requires it 
  to get some advanced feature set?
 Just to re-iterate...not anymore. You can deploy
 just the flash file. Or
 you can leverage the Data Services server-side
 component...J2EE, can
 drop it into an existing JVM.
 
 
  BTW - (just an off-topic comment) per-CPU
 licensing terms 
  tend to be deal-breakers with gov't clients, who
 often have 
  machines with many CPUs.
 Yeah, I understand the logic in trying to charge
 based on CPU in that
 smaller folks pay less than massive apps. But it
 also hurts when two
 4-CPU boxen are in use in a cluster for an app-farm
 and only 1 out of
 200 might actually use flex. 
 
 My understanding is that $20K/cpu is really just a
 starting point, so
 like the $35K sticker on a car, careful negotiation
 can probably hammer
 out a deal for far less. 
 
 
 -Timo
 

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Re: [jug-discussion] Is this Web 2.0?

[josh zeidner]

Hi Chad,

  I posted this to Phoenix refresh lately.  Sun has
invested some resources in supporting Ruby( a headline
 technology in Web 2.0 ) in the JVM.  I like to point
this fact to people: 'Web 2.0' is registered trademark
of CMP Media, LLC. a major media corporation.

http://headius.blogspot.com/2006/09/jruby-steps-into-sun.html

The primary goal is to give JRuby the attention it
really needs. The potential for Ruby on the JVM has
not escaped notice at Sun, and so we'll be focusing on
making JRuby as complete, performant, and solid as
possible. We'll then proceed on to help build out
broader tool support for Ruby, answering calls by many
in the industry for a better or smarter Ruby
development experience. I'm also making it a personal
priority to continue growing the JRuby community,
foster greater cooperation between the Java and Ruby
worlds, and work toward a whole-platform Ruby-on-JVM
strategy for Sun.

-jmz 

--- Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Finally watched this (it's what Warner was talking
 about last night).
 It's really fascinating and really funny.
 
 I don't think it has much to do with Web2.0 in the,
 er, traditional,
 sense, but it's still fascinating.
 
 -- Chad
 
 On 9/2/06, Steven Elliott
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
   I would like to share with the jug a wonderful
 presentation on Human
  Computation which presents Web2.0 concepts in a
 very useful light.  Not
  really specific to Java but since many of us work
 with the broader concepts
  of web technologies I thought you would find it of
 interest not to mention
  that Luis von Ahn is a very smart guy.
 
 

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-8246463980976635143amp;hl=en
 
   enjoy,
 
   Steven
 
   PS: This presentation format is what I was
 suggesting (many months ago)
  which could greatly benefit long distance juggers
 like myself.
 

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Re: [jug-discussion] App Dev Framework choices

[josh zeidner]

 btw- community walk is very similar to Ning.  Have
you ever seen Ning?  jmz


--- Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 6/24/06, josh zeidner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
Why is it that every Ruby expert that I run into
 has
  absolutely nothing to show?
 
 I'm definitely not an expert, but I just showed you
 http://communitywalk.com in another post. 
 http://zubio.com is another
 one we have done.  There are a couple of others that
 are mostly
 complete, but not released publicly yet, as well as
 an internal agile
 project-management app.
 
 There's also this page:

http://wiki.rubyonrails.org/rails/pages/RealWorldUsage
 
 -- Chad
 

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Re: [jug-discussion] App Dev Framework choices

[josh zeidner]

  Just curious, what sites have you done using RoR?

  -jmz


--- Erik Hatcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Jun 22, 2006, at 12:44 PM, Chad Woolley wrote:
  Can't you feel the peace and contentment in this
 block of code? Ruby
  is the language Buddha would have programmed in.
 
 Yeah, being pragmatic, Buddha probably would be
 using RoR.  The more  
 idealistic of us would likely be doing Smalltalk.
 
  After reading several thousand blogs which argue
 the pros and cons of
  RoR and seeing it used in a real shop, I think the
 benefit does
  largely come down to the Ruby language itself.
 
 Bingo.  Rails is only good *because* of Ruby.  The
 dynamic magic  
 that can be pulled to create very elegant looking
 DSLs (domain- 
 specific languages) is the secret sauce that makes
 Rails what is.   
 Sure, you can do wacky reflective stuff in Java and
 get close, but  
 the natures of those languages are different at a
 core layer.
 
  Of course there's still
  big cons compared to Java - my main gripes are
 lack of a real
  refactoring, intelligent code-completing IDE
 
 Many gripe about this.  Personally I have had great
 success being  
 interactive and using IRB tab completion to explore
 and learn an  
 API.  In Rails, script/console is amazing - your
 entire Rails  
 environment immediately accessible live.
 
  , and lack of something as
  nice as Maven to automatically manage your
 external and cross-project
  dependencies.
 
 RubyGems manages 3rd party library dependencies
 nicely, and with  
 Rails you can freeze it to a particular project. 
 There is also  
 Capistrano (formerly Switchtower) for project
 automation such as  
 testing and deployment.  I'm not aware of much in
 the way of  
 automated deployment tools in the Java world that
 compares to  
 Capistrano.  Its much trickier to generically deploy
 a Java  
 application because of the various ways every
 application server  
 deploys.
 
  Oh, and speaking of XML parsing performance - AJAX
 is now officially
  old news.  AJAJ (Async Javascript And JSON,
 Javascript Serialized
  Object Notation) is the wave of the future.  We
 don't need no stinking
  XML!
 
 Sending back XML was old news almost a decade ago.
 
   Erik
 
 

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Re: [jug-discussion] App Dev Framework choices

[josh zeidner]

sarcasm

 Its no where near the level of peace and contentment
that ruby offers.  There's just something so darn cool
about Ruby I cant seem to put my finger on it.  Maybe
its the cool graphics.  Maybe its the videos and the
fact that ruby programmers use Macs.  Maybe its that
it hasent showed up on India's radar just yet.

/sarcasm


--- Drew Davidson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 And in OGNL it's similar to apply an expression to
 any collection, 
 enumeration or iterator:
 
 parent.children.{ #this.doSomething() }
 
 or you can filter any collection, enumeration or
 iterator using
 
 filteredItems = parent.children.{?
 name.startsWith(foo) }
 
 This is what Buddha would have used for an
 expression language.
 
 - Drew
 // OGNL since 1998
 
 josh zeidner wrote:
 
 Thomas,
 
  I was about to say practically the same thing... 
 in
 python:
 
  foreach( SomeObject )
 
  It amazing!  Its going save us billions in
 development costs!  Crom the Mighty, the patron
 diety
 of Ruby on Rails is very pleased with block
 enumerators.
 
  Do they pass out pills at Ruby user group
 meetings?
 
  -jmz
 
 
 --- Thomas Hicks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
   
 
 At 09:44 AM 6/22/2006, Chad wrote:
 
 
 
 Cool.  I checked out the REXML page.  This quote
 is
   
 
 great:
 
 
 
 Some of the common differences are that the Ruby
   
 
 API relies on block
 
 
 enumerations, rather than iterators. For example,
   
 
 the Java code:
 
 
 for (Enumeration e=parent.getChildren();
   
 
 e.hasMoreElements(); ) {
 
 
  Element child = (Element)e.nextElement(); // Do
   
 
 something with child
 
 
 }
 
 in Ruby becomes:
 
 parent.each_child{ |child| # Do something with
   
 
 child }
 
 
 Can't you feel the peace and contentment in this
   
 
 block of code? Ruby
 
 
 is the language Buddha would have programmed in.
 ---
   
 
 Dr. Ralph Griswold (creator or SNOBOL and Icon
 programming languages)
 used to say that there's really nothing new under
 the sun in CS, it's all
 recycled. I have to note that this statement form
 you admire so much comes
 directly from Smalltalk of 20 years ago!
  regards,
  -tom
 
 
 
 
 
 

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 -- 
 +-+
  Drew Davidson | OGNL Technology 
 +-+
 |  Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  /
 |Web: http://www.ognl.org   /
 |Vox: (520) 531-1966   
 |Fax: (520) 531-1965\
 | Mobile: (520) 405-2967 \
 +-+
 
 


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Re: [jug-discussion] App Dev Framework choices

[josh zeidner]

  Hi Erik,

   After having worked with countless web frameworks
and dozens of languages I will say this:  What you
gain in development effort and 'syntactic sugar' you
lose in performance.  As all these sites prop up I
just give it a year or two before people start
marketing themselves as experts in 'optimizing' RoR,
so they can sell the solutions to the performance
problems that the 'peace and contentment' caused. 
Very similar with EJB and CMP. EJB offered a
simplistic layer of abstaction  that made data
management simpler, but also caused a huge expense in
the management of the EJB container!  Secondly, if
Ruby can offer more to the client, then the RoR
programmer will charge more!  Aren't labor economics
fun?  EJB in the end, didnt save anyone a cent.  There
is nothing new under the sun, but there is a never
ending supply of idiots and people willing to pay
them.

  Having witnessed the Web 2.0 sleaziness first hand,
I do not trust anything that is associated with that
world.  If you want to deliver something really good
to your client, give them standards that are
unencumbered by licenscing constraints( where it is
affordable of course ).

   I still do respect Java as a language because the
semantics are well established.  The changes that it
introduced to C++ syntax were well accounted for.  


  sincerely, jmz

--- Erik Hatcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Jun 21, 2006, at 9:08 PM, josh zeidner wrote:
RoR: Why?  because its Web 2.0( see CMP Media
  scandal ).  The whole Web 2.0 thing( which RoR is
  invariably linked to  ) has turned out to be a
 very
  stupid multi-level marketing scheme starring Tim
  O'Reilly.  RoR offers no technological advantages
 over
  existing scripting languages, despite the magical
  claims of its proponents.
 
 My good (virtual) friend, Brent Ashley told me
 recently if Jesse  
 James Garret is the father of AJAX, then you and I
 are the mailmen  
 that all the kids look like.  Back in the Tucson
 days, between  
 getting .bombed by Running Start and starting at
 eBlox I wrote an  
 article about Remote Scripting for developerWorks
 which was my first  
 foray into technical writing.
 
 No technological advantage?  I disagree.  The
 brevity and  
 readability... let's just say succintness most
 definitely is  
 advantageous.   For example, to wire up a
 Google-Suggest-like drop- 
 down box I put this in my template:
 
   %= text_field_with_auto_complete :agent, :name,
 :size = 20 %
 
 And there is a controller method that generates the
 ul that gets  
 rendered.  There is a lot of convention, over
 configuration, and  
 sometimes that is a bit too magical even for my
 tastes.
 
 But I can confidently say that RoR will be my
 preferred front-end  
 technology for the foreseeable future and with
 loosely coupled back- 
 end technologies, such as Solr, it's trivial to tie
 the best of breed  
 pieces together, Java (or otherwise).
 
   Erik
 
 

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Re: [jug-discussion] App Dev Framework choices

[josh zeidner]

--- Erik Hatcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Jun 24, 2006, at 5:15 PM, josh zeidner wrote:
 After having worked with countless web
 frameworks
  and dozens of languages I will say this:  What you
  gain in development effort and 'syntactic sugar'
 you
  lose in performance.
 
 But Ruby is not just a sugar coating of syntax.


  I know, its a brave new world of app development...
maybe im just getting older but this stuff is really
beginning to lose its luster for me.  Why is it that
people absolutely refuse to accept the fact that there
are no silver bullet solutions?  I guess in a sales
situation it is very hard to make a sale when youre
competing against some bozo who is promising the world
for penny.  Always going for the quick buck.  BTW- I
hear the real estate market in Tucson is getting
trippy.  And so it goes...


 
As all these sites prop up I
  just give it a year or two before people start
  marketing themselves as experts in 'optimizing'
 RoR,
  so they can sell the solutions to the performance
  problems that the 'peace and contentment' caused.
 
 Perhaps.  There will certainly be the need for
 skilled folks in the  
 RoR space in terms of deployment.  You asked what
 sites I've  
 deployed.  At this point I don't have anything
 visible in production, 


  Why is it that every Ruby expert that I run into has
absolutely nothing to show?

 
 primarily because I'm in a small academic group that
 has little  
 sysadmin skills and servers to push what I've
 developed out.  We do  
 have a previous version online using RoR interacting
 with Kowari and  
 a custom XML-RPC Lucene search server.  We'll be
 putting the new and  
 improved version with Solr replacing both the other
 two pieces  
 shortly.   Once that is up, I'll be announcing it. 
 I run the system  
 locally in development mode and it's doing quite
 well with no RoR  
 caching, but we will certainly be enabling the
 caching facilities  
 that RoR slickly offers as we need it.
 
  Very similar with EJB and CMP. EJB offered a
  simplistic layer of abstaction  that made data
  management simpler
 
 Uh, you must have used a different EJB than I did.
 

  Well i started with EJB before Sun even used the
term j2EE.  I think it was probably '98.  Back then
EJB was being sold as a nifty 'three tiered solution'
to your web site woes( Websphere, at the time was not
even an EJB server ).  And it was simple.  At first. 
It didnt have block enumerations though and I think
that it will be block enumerations that will save RoR
from the same fate of every other app framework in
existence. :)

  So EJB got bigger and fatter, and alternatives
Sprung up, etc... but here is my word of advice to
potential IT buyers: INVEST IN PEOPLE NOT TECHNOLOGY.

   here is a movie where a NASA employee compares Ruby
EJB, and a few other technologies:

  http://oodt.jpl.nasa.gov/better-web-app.mov

 I don't have any  
 happy experiences with EJB in practice or even in
 theory.  But then  
 again, I'm not even fond of relational databases in
 practice no  
 matter how they are accessed... but ActiveRecord has
 made me smile a  
 lot lately.
 
Having witnessed the Web 2.0 sleaziness first
 hand,
  I do not trust anything that is associated with
 that
  world.  If you want to deliver something really
 good
  to your client, give them standards that are
  unencumbered by licenscing constraints( where it
 is
  affordable of course ).
 
 I'm not following what you mean here... how does the
 Web 2.0 world  
 relate to licensing constraints?

  Well im not going to go that much into it, but Web
2.0 turns out to be a service mark owned by CMP Media
LLC. 



  -josh

 
 I still do respect Java as a language because
 the
  semantics are well established
 
 I'm quite happy with Java as well, and I do more
 coding in it than in  
 Ruby still.
 
   Erik
 
 

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RE: [jug-discussion] Solr

[josh zeidner]

  Just to add one thing to this... they are making it
'free' due to competition with Laszlo.  Double check
the licensing on Flex.  As anyone who is familiar with
OSS knows, 'free' is not always free.

btw- Laszlo is a nice package.  Its Java based.

  -jmz


--- Tim Colson (tcolson) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Solr has a custom response handler hook so XML is
 not 
  required, just the default.
 
 Interesting. 
 
 Do you know of anyone created a handler that returns
 JSON to compare
 speed of parsing?
 http://www.json.org/
 
 Might be fun to rig a Solr XML feed to a Flex
 UI...now that it's free.
 
 (Stop reading now if you don't want to hear about
 Flex.)
 
 Dunno if anyone has noticed, but Macromede,
 Adobe is says on their
 site that the core Flex 2.0 SDK and distribution
 will be free.
 
 http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flexframework2/
  
 At the core of Flex 2.0 is the Flex framework,
 which is included with
 Flex Builder and will also be distributed in the
 free Flex Software
 Development Kit (SDK). Using only the free Flex SDK,
 you can
 commercially deploy Flex applications that connect
 to XML and SOAP web
 services with no additional costs or server
 licensing required.
 
 Note the limitation of XML services and/or SOAP
 Services (both lowercase
 and upper intentional). The uninitiated might wonder
 why this is
 considered a limit. The Flex Data Services server
 piece (which will
 still cost big bucks) provides a super-easy
 super-fast
 binary-proto-over-the-wire auto-serialization
 auto-conversion-to-ActionScript-data-types RPC
 mechanism that can
 leverage existing POJO's on the server with
 finegrained declarative
 security. A mouthful of buzzwords that truly is
 worth something... but
 not sure it's worth the price they're asking. ;-)
 
 Oh, and for all you Eclipse freaks... the new
 FlexBuilder IDE is based
 on Eclipse. 
 
 -T
 

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RE: [jug-discussion] App Dev Framework choices

[josh zeidner]

--- Rick Hightower [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Since I am a consulting, I give advice, but will
 happily work with Tapestry
 or JSF. 
 
 Being a capitalist, I tend to pick the one with the
 highest bill rate. :o)

  Being an engineer, I tend to pick the one with the
best value to my customer.  :)

  It would appear that the app framework world is
going through the same gyrations that the mainframe
world did in the 80s.  During this period we had
professional consultants who aimed to increase their
hourly wages by developing skills and reputation for
'big game mainframes'.  These high wages were kept
elevated by an ever increasing operative complexity,
which quickly degraded into an excess 'bloat' that, at
best was a liability to the customer rather than an
advantage.  During the late phases economic
relationships between the consultants( ala Byte
magazine and BITNET ) and the hardware providers( IBM,
etc.  ) had developed to block all but the most
esoteric and complex solutions to computing problems
from making it to market.  The mainframes were
designed for the consultants, not the customers.

  The end of this phase is referred to as the 'PC
revolution'.  The above situation resulted in a high
barrier to entry for digital business causing a high
demand for alternative solutions.  This was coupled
with the proliferation of new electronics suppliers in
Asia( specifically China ) due to changes in military
and trade policy.  Thus, what was once considered the
domain of geeky hobbyists became the stage for a phase
of new billionaires, with the likes of Steve Jobs and
Bill Gates.

  To address the question directly, which one is best?
 There is an assumed aspect to this question... best
for whom?  1) the customer, 2) the developer. 
Certainly value and success involve a comparitive
advantage for both parties.  If history is to repeat
itself, and it always does... the mainframes that did
survive were the ones whose life support was the
broadest and deepest, not necessarily the ones with
the nicest trim, buttons, and knobs, etc.  Despite
this, the mainframe specialists as a species were
doomed to extinction, even the ones who worked on the
last of dinosaurs.

  Strangely, the UNIX crowd is now sitting with the
cool kids again with the proliferation of Linux.  Most
of the new Linux hackers are kids, but you do find the
occasional old senior amongst them offering up advice
and cranky remarks about the Cold War and 'them damn
camyanists'.

  As far as survival strategies go aim for standards,
not bling.-jmz



  



 
 I am currently working with Scott Fau.h and
 another ArcMinder in San
 Diego.
 
 We are working with JSF, Spring, Hibernate (and soon
 iBatis).
 
 At night and sometimes at lunch, I work at a project
 based in New York which
 is JSF based (mostly advice and guidance and helping
 people out of sticky
 issues). In the early morning I've been working on a
 Tapestry/Spring/Hibernate project. I've been writing
 Tapestry custom
 components and helped them reconfigure the
 Spring/Hibernate bits (they had
 it configured a bit off).
 
 BTW, We are looking for people with
 JSF/Tapestry/Spring/Hibernate skills.
 
 I am tired and busy.
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Jon Thomas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 12:16 PM
 To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
 Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] App Dev Framework
 choices
 
 you may have just started the next religious war
 
 On Jun 20, 2006, at 11:30 AM, Thomas Hicks wrote:
 
  Hey Rick,
 
  You raise an issue I've been looking at lately:
 the pros  cons
  of various web app dev frameworks. I was motivated
 by my lack
  of knowledge about what's out there and inspired
 by Matt Raible's
  comparison presentation
 (http://www.virtuas.com/articles/ 
  webframework-sweetspots.html).
 
  In the snippet below you mention JSF/Facelets and
 Tapestry.
  When do you choose to use Tapestry over
 JSF/Facelets (or vice versa)?
 
  (Anyone else with experience in the frameworks
 area, please chime in).
  regards,
  -tom
 
 
  At 11:00 AM 6/20/2006, Rick wrote:
  .
  Nick,
 
  I was up your way working on a Tapestry project
 (a few weeks ago).
 
  I've been doing some Tapestry work on the side
 while doing
  JSF/Facelets/Spring/Hibernate(iBatis too) for my
 regular gig. I  
  also updated
  our Tapestry course to Tapestry 4.0.
 
  TTYL
 
  --Rick
 
 
 
 

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RE: [jug-discussion] App Dev Framework choices

[josh zeidner]

--- Rick Hightower [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 So Josh, let me get this straight if a Tapestry
 project pays $1 dollar an
 hour and a JSF project pays $100.00 an hour (or vice
 versa), you would work
 on the Tapestry project (or vice versa) because it
 is a better fit.

 Hey Rick, thanks for the response.

 I would work on Tapestry project if I thought it
would result in long term success of my client( if she
wins i win ).  As soon as you reduce development to a
labor function it tends to compress the value that a
good engineer can offer.  I usually don't get into
these kinds of situations... im more interested in
developing specific ideas.  What language they are
based in is largely irrelevant.  My interest in java
is a function of my career legacy and thats about it
these days.  Sun faces some serious problems.

 
 The phrase the one refers to the project not the
 technology.

  Hey, I hope you didnt take serious offense to my
statement...

 
 Being a low-life contractor/consultant, I tend not
 to pick the technology.

  well i would guess to some degree the technology
picks you... you cant specialize in everything!

 I really like working with Tapestry and JSF.

  Ive heard good things about Tapestry and it has LTC(
Long Term Credibility- to use the microsoft term ). 
Good luck with that!

 
  Since I am a consulting, I give advice, but will
  happily work with Tapestry
  or JSF.
 
 I've recommended Tapestry for some projects and JSF
 for others.
 
 I am fairly open-minded.
 
 I would have no moral issue working on a dotNet
 project or a RoR project.

  Well im not sure if youve encountered my commentary
elsewhere, and this is a follow up on that...  but
anyway a summary on these two digital denizens:

  DOT NET: Arrg!  This is why i dont like Dot
NET:  Its like buying real estate in Columbia.  I have
no idea what will happen to my investment in time and
resources.  Microsoft has shown zero respect for thier
customers( and America in general ) in the past
despite Steve Ballmer's 'DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS
DEVELOPERS' chant.  I don't blame them, competition is
tough...  i surely wouldnt subject myself to them and
I doubt I would subject a client to them.

  RoR: Why?  because its Web 2.0( see CMP Media
scandal ).  The whole Web 2.0 thing( which RoR is
invariably linked to  ) has turned out to be a very
stupid multi-level marketing scheme starring Tim
O'Reilly.  RoR offers no technological advantages over
existing scripting languages, despite the magical
claims of its proponents.

 
 I prefer Java, but learning new things broadens you
 horizons and
 understanding of development in general.

  I still like Perl.  Larry Wall is the best.  Id work
for him.  Python is also cool.

  thanks,  jmz




 
 -Original Message-
 From: josh zeidner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 10:15 AM
 To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
 Subject: RE: [jug-discussion] App Dev Framework
 choices
 
 
 
 --- Rick Hightower [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Since I am a consulting, I give advice, but will
  happily work with Tapestry
  or JSF. 
  
  Being a capitalist, I tend to pick the one with
 the
  highest bill rate. :o)
 
   Being an engineer, I tend to pick the one with the
 best value to my customer.  :)
 
   It would appear that the app framework world is
 going through the same gyrations that the mainframe
 world did in the 80s.  During this period we had
 professional consultants who aimed to increase their
 hourly wages by developing skills and reputation for
 'big game mainframes'.  These high wages were kept
 elevated by an ever increasing operative complexity,
 which quickly degraded into an excess 'bloat' that,
 at
 best was a liability to the customer rather than an
 advantage.  During the late phases economic
 relationships between the consultants( ala Byte
 magazine and BITNET ) and the hardware providers(
 IBM,
 etc.  ) had developed to block all but the most
 esoteric and complex solutions to computing problems
 from making it to market.  The mainframes were
 designed for the consultants, not the customers.
 
   The end of this phase is referred to as the 'PC
 revolution'.  The above situation resulted in a high
 barrier to entry for digital business causing a high
 demand for alternative solutions.  This was coupled
 with the proliferation of new electronics suppliers
 in
 Asia( specifically China ) due to changes in
 military
 and trade policy.  Thus, what was once considered
 the
 domain of geeky hobbyists became the stage for a
 phase
 of new billionaires, with the likes of Steve Jobs
 and
 Bill Gates.
 
   To address the question directly, which one is
 best?
  There is an assumed aspect to this question... best
 for whom?  1) the customer, 2) the developer. 
 Certainly value and success involve a comparitive
 advantage for both parties.  If history is to repeat
 itself, and it always does... the mainframes that
 did
 survive were the ones whose life support was the
 broadest

Re: [jug-discussion] scripting language shootout[ sourceforge.net ]

[josh zeidner]

  http://www.sourceforge.net


--- Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Sounds interesting.  Is there some
 confluence/trac/scm/wiki-ish sort
 of thing that is set up so we could do all the specs
 and coding
 publicly (or with visibility to all jug members)?
 
 -- Chad
 
 On 1/26/06, Warner Onstine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
  Ok, I know that we've talked about this before,
 but I really would
  like to make this one a reality as I just think
 it's a lot of fun.
 
  Here's what I'm thinking about:
  1) Define something with a little spice to it to
 accomplish - say
  connect to a db through a command-line
 application, retrieve a set of
  data, allow the user to select a record and return
 just that record.
  2) Any scripting language is fair game (perl,
 ruby, python, jython,
  beanshell, groovy, etc.)
  3) briefly go through the code to show what's
 involved with each one
  4) Speed tests! (I think we'll need judges on this
 one!)
 
  We have plenty of presenters lined up for a while
 (I believe) so we
  can line up anyone who's interested in
 participating in this and plan
  it for a future preso. Whose interested?
 
  (I'll take Groovy and maybe Ruby if noone else
 does).
 
  -warner
 
 

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Re: [jug-discussion] Google director of Info Systems speaking at UA

[josh zeidner]

 Congrats, Todd.  Best of luck to you.

  Heres a good caterer:
http://www.gandhicuisineofindia.com/

  the Vindaloo is quite good if you can take the heat.

 -josh


--- Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Ever so slightly off topic, but for a fellow Java
 guy in PHoenix, can
 anyone recommend a good wedding caterer down in
 Tucson?  
 
 Getting married back home in March.  
 
 Warner you find a replacement yet?
 
 -Todd 
 Please respond off line. 
 
 Todd R. Ellermann
 President PHXJUG.org
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 602-738-6187
 
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Re: [jug-discussion] any interest in an obj-c preso?

[josh zeidner]

 Hi Warner,

  I would be interested in learning a bit about
Objective-C.

 Thanks, Josh Zeidner

--- Warner Onstine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I know that this would probably be a limited
 audience as this is not  
 about web programming (per se), but I've been
 learning objective-c to  
 help port an app from java to it for a friend of
 mine. This would be  
 a few months out as we already have feb's and I
 believe march's  
 presos lined up (plus I'll need some time to finish
 porting the app  
 which is an intelligent newsreader - so some web
 aspects to it).
 
 -warner
 

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Re: [jug-discussion] JMS

[josh zeidner]

 Hi,


  Ive worked with JMS for a major contract.  It was
interfacing with IBM MQ*Series as well.  At the time,
JMS was pretty young.  ActiveMQ has been around for a
while.  Don't know of any major projects that use it. 
MOM( Message Oriented Middleware ), a category to
which MQ*Series belongs, was a major integrations
trend of the late 80s early 90s.

 -josh


--- Warner Onstine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Well, this would fall into something besides a code
 sprint (http:// 

www.zopemag.com/Guides/miniGuide_ZopeSprinting.html),
 a sprint refers  
 to actually implementing functionality for a
 specific project rather  
 than just to learn something.
 
 Besides that, these little learning sessions are
 definitely a good  
 idea (we could dredge up the original name that you
 coined Colson  
 Coding, or was it Colson Casa Coding?).
 
 In short, I'd definitely be interested in digging
 into JMS, it's been  
 awhile since I've done anything with it (I did some
 contract work for  
 Andy on the IBM mq seriies stuff and some work on
 OpenJMS way back  
 when).
 
 -warner
 
 On Jan 5, 2006, at 12:56 PM, Tim Colson ((tcolson))
 wrote:
 
  Has anyone worked with the ActiveMQ JMS server?
  http://www.activemq.org/
 
  Would anyone be interested in a code sprint to
 create a java gossip
  client that sends notes to JMS topics and listens
 for responses?
 
  (Okay, so this sounds a bit like RSS... but JMS
 seems perhaps like a
  better way to do subscriptions, no?)
 
  Further thought... howabout a JMS server that has
 a client MDB that
  listens to a big feed, filters the postings
 based on user-prefs
  (articles with '32 TV' in them), and then posts
 the cream of the crop
  into a personal JMS queue that their Java client
 listens to.
 
  -Timo
 
 

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[jug-discussion] Ubuntu + Eclipse

[josh zeidner]

Hi Java People,

  I just wiped my laptop and installed Ubuntu Linux( a
Debian based distribution ).  I am very pleased.  It
installed( wireless + sound ) without a hitch.  Got
Sun JDK + Tomcat running in 30 mins.  Eclipse is
faster on this than it was on an PowerBook.  Overall
it is very nice...

 -josh




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Re: [jug-discussion] MSoft + Jboss?

[josh zeidner]

  well, C was meant to be a solution to UNIX platform
compatibility.  We all know how that went.  Jboss has
been evolving into a strange beast in the last year. 
They are almost their own platform apart from J2EE. 
Certainly the odd man out of the J2ee world.  Try
installing it on linux...

  -josh


--- Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 This occured for me like the un-announcement  Uhhh
 Doesn't JBoss run
 on Java? Doesn't Java Run Anywhere? 
 -Todd
 
 
 Todd R. Ellermann
 President PHXJUG.org
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 602-738-6187
 
 
   
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RE: [jug-discussion] MSoft + Jboss?

[josh zeidner]

  there could be many facets to that strategy though. 
They could just want the user base and slowly couple
to their longer-term investments.  In general though,
Microsoft will fight one battle after another to
prevent thier OS from becoming a commodity priced next
to Linux or Max OSX.  They lose in this case.  While
outwardly they must advertise maximum compatibility,
engineers know that this is rarely what is offered. 
They certainly havent sold good engineers on what they
claim is 'superior technology'.

  What was built in Java in placeware?  did they have
their own transmission protocol?  Does it use RTP?  If
all they have a simple java client, it not too
expensive to swap out with Windows code.  Managing
compatibilities is though, and this could be the asset
they would gain in such an aquisition...
  
 -josh


--- Michael Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   Anybody who know the history of Microsoft and
 Java knows that there is
 not exactly a long legacy of cooperation between
 those two camps.
 
 But they acquired Placeware to make Live Meeting
 and that was 100% Java.
  
 
 
 Michael Oliver
 CTO
 Alarius Systems LLC
 6800 E. Lake Mead Blvd, #1096
 Las Vegas, NV 89156
 Phone:(702)643-7425
 Fax:(702)974-0341
 *Note new email changed from
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 -Original Message-
 From: josh zeidner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 2:53 PM
 To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
 Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] MSoft + Jboss?
 
 
 
 --- Dennis Sosnoski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  I agree that JBoss is evolving in some strange
 ways.
  Having taken over a
  large developer mindshare in the J2EE market I
 think they're trying to 
  figure out where to go from here
 
   They certainly seem to suggest that they are their
 own platform, seperate
 and distinct from the Sun/J2EE world.  
 
 - J2EE looks to me
  to be on the
  downswing, with lighter weight technologies 
 increasingly used as  
 alternatives.
 
   Despite my enthusiasm for Java, and my time
 invested in it; Python looks
 like it make bite heels of the EAI world.  Anyone
 here use Twisted?
 
  Meanwhile, JBoss is getting more
  competition in the
  free/open source J2EE app server market. It is
 telling that they say 
  most developers are using JBoss on Windows;
 
   JBoss is hugely popular in Asia...  most of the
 people /selling/ this
 service are not in america, but there are many
 americans buying this
 solution.
 
  that's a
  low-end system
  market, certainly not what I'd expect to see in
 even medium sized 
  companies.
 
   IBMs strategy is I believe to use the Open source
 Geronimo server as a
 gateway to higher end services and products from
 IBM.  It has yet to be seen
 how this will pan out.
 
  
  I haven't noticed any problems installing it on
 Linux, though - untgz, 
  go to bin, and run the script. What kind of
 problems have you seen?
 
   There are JMX problems- they cannot be resolved
 because Sun wont freeze
 and disclose the spec to JBoss.  There have been
 historical cooperation
 problems with Sun and JBoss.  Sun did not intend for
 OSS providers to be
 building EJB servers...
 
  
  The only way this arrangement with MS makes sense
 as a technical 
  development (rather than a marketing one) is if
 JBoss intends to go 
  more into non-J2EE or J2EE++ technologies.
 
   I definately agree, I can't see Msoft spending
 money supporting a solid
 J2EE stack being that it stands in direct opposition
 to the .NET initiative.
 Most likely they will use JBoss to lure j2ee
 developers into the microsoft
 world.
 
   Anybody who know the history of Microsoft and Java
 knows that there is not
 exactly a long legacy of cooperation between those
 two camps.
 
  Perhaps
  they're planning to add
  features beyond standard JAX-RPC/JAX-WS support in
 their replacement 
  for Axis
 (http://wiki.jboss.org/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=JBossWS),
  and want to
  work toward Microsoft compatibility. I think
 that's probably a bad 
  approach, if they're building on top of the
 standard - JAX-RPC is a 
  horrible mess, and I don't really think JAX-WS is
 much better 
  (annotation overload). Axis1 became a mess in
 large part because it 
  was built around JAX-RPC; Axis2 is taking the
 cleaner approach of 
  building their own core with the intent to support
 JAX-RPC/JAX-WS as a 
  wrapper.
 
   Never worked with Axis directly, but I know what
 the system does
 
   -josh
 
 
  
- Dennis
  
  josh zeidner wrote:
  
well, C was meant to be a solution to UNIX
  platform
  compatibility.  We all know how that went.  Jboss
  has
  been evolving into a strange beast in the last
  year. 
  They are almost their own platform apart from
 J2EE.
  
  Certainly the odd man out of the J2ee world.  Try
 installing it on 
  linux...
  
-josh
  
  
  --- Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

  
  This occured for me like the un-announcement 
  Uhhh
  Doesn't JBoss run
  on Java? Doesn't Java Run Anywhere

RE: [jug-discussion] Why Jython, or Jelly, or Groovy, or Beanshell or ... instead of perl, or sh script?

[josh zeidner]

--- Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 Hate to actually do Microsofts job here, but when/if
 longhorn comes out
 it will actually have FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER a real
 scripting
 environment.

  uhh.. you mean Vista?!  Longhorn is so '04. 
Microsoft figured out that if they keep renaming it
they wont ever have to make excuses when they don't
release!

  I think it is currently code named
 monad. I saw a demo
 of it in Redmond.   The cool things you could do
 with it if Office was
 installed include.
 
 wget to get the log. Import into excel. generate a
 pie chart. email
 attachement to person(s).

  Now are you trying to tell me thats not going to use
COM? ;)

  -josh 


ps. will get back 2 u soon

   
 
 You may have to do a little prep work in the excel
 template, but you
 could then email the log results (presumably site
 usage statistics or
 something) directly to the marketing department and
 skip the developer
 all together.  Ofcourse if these are error logs you
 might have other
 ideas.
 -Todd
 
 Todd R. Ellermann
 President PHXJUG.org
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 602-738-6187
 
 
   
   

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[jug-discussion] CCEVS report on Macintosh Computers

[josh zeidner]

http://niap.nist.gov/cc-scheme/st/ST_VID4012.html

Apple Mac OS X v10.3.6 and Mac OS X Server v10.3.6
provides a moderate level of independently assured
security in a conventional TOE and is suitable for a
cooperative non-hostile environment.




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Re: [jug-discussion] Mac Java Performance

[josh zeidner]

 Hi Landon,

   I have some experience using Java and Eclipse on
the Mac.  I had similar experiences, Java is certainly
slower on the Mac than on Windows.  Apple is to some
degree responsible for the development of the Mac JDK
and they  promote Java objects to 'first class
citizens'.  They are typically a few paces behind the
windows version.  The media libraries do work fairly
well though I might add.  If you are working with
Imaging in Java I can certainly provide a lot of info.

  I am curious as to why you chose the Mac as your
platform...  The last few run-ins I had with the Mac
were 1) a company that was receiving funding directly
from Apple, 2) a small company whos owner was so
absolutely fed up with Windows he was willing to try
anything to get out, 3) my IPod.  Macs are great but
the user share is very small.  They are virtually
unused outside of America.  Eastern European
developers I work with have never even seen one...

  -josh


--- Landon Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Sorry if this is off-topic, but I noticed that there
 appears to be some
 Mac users on this list.  I recently purchased a 15
 powerbook 1.67Ghz
 machine and for Java development... well, to be
 honest... it is
 sub-optimal.  It appears that the JDK is just plain
 slow!  On a project
 that I am working on, running the core unit tests
 on a 2 yr old
 thinkpad takes less than 1 min, on the brand new mac
 it takes over 2
 minutes.  Eclipse is equally slow compared to
 windows for me.  The
 incremental rebuild of eclipse takes so long on my
 mac that I have gone
 back to using my Thinkpad for development.  Here is
 what I have tried to
 improve performance:
 
  
 
 1.Disable Spotlight on my dev folders.
 2.Add memory (I have 1.5 GB on the mac, 1 GB on the
 thinkpad).
 3.Tried the latest 1.5 version of the Apple JDK.
 
  
 
 So here are my questions:
 
 Are other people finding Eclipse / JDK slow on the
 Mac?  Did tiger slow
 down the performance of Java (Tiger is a nice OS,
 but I think that I
 would have really liked Jaguar more. I find myself
 constantly on the
 verge of permanently disabling Spotlight and
 Dashboard Widgets haven't
 jumped out at me as necessary for the way I work.)?
 
  
 
 I am thinking that I might have to go back to my old
 laptop :(
 
  
 
 Thanks,
 
 Landon
 
 


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RE: [jug-discussion] Mac Java Performance

[josh zeidner]

--- Landon Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi Josh,
 I chose Mac because I was pretty fed up with my
 Thinkpad and the need to
 reinstall windows on it on a 6 month to yearly basis
 (the time is right
 about now that a good reinstall would do it some
 good).  Over time, it
 has degraded to the point where it takes 5 minutes
 for me to have
 workable network connection from a fresh reboot.

  yes Ive worked with the thinkpad...

 
 I liked the idea of mac over say linux because of
 the strong MS-Office
 support and linux never ran properly on my thinkpad
 (properly == with
 full wireless support).

  that was a very standard problem( are you using the
T40? ), I had the same issue.  again, its doctoring
the standards.  Wifi was one of those technologies
that was developed by a government funded
organization.  And the so called industry 'innovators'
actually made it more difficult to use, because they
exploited ambiguities in the specification to lock
users into their own hardware/software( this story is
kind of like that italian hero that you ate for lunch
that you keep tasting for days afterward ).  So Wifi
exists as a problematic technology, because it was
defined by a body that does not really have the
financial power to enforce and qualify its
specification.  Technology is more about politics than
technology.  Again to reiterate some of the points
made on Azipa... most things that are truly
innovative, as in enable competition, provide a
use-value or however you want to phrase it, rarely
come out of a high-competition environment.

 Also, the claim that Java
 was a first class
 citizen was very enticing.  
 
 Also, I was dabbling with integrating some UNIX
 tools into a platform
 that we are building.  GCC being the native compiler
 was attractive.
 
 Despite the Java (and Flash / Flex) performance
 issues on Mac, it is a
 very, very nice machine.  There are things I LOVE
 about it, things I
 tolerate about it, and things I hate.  I would say
 the same thing about
 Windows and Linux also, I suppose.

  There are certainly short and long term advantages
to either of them.  So you are using Java for what
exactly?

  -josh
  

 
 Not great reasons, but who doesn't want to see if
 the grass really is
 greener?
 
 Landon
 
 -Original Message-
 From: josh zeidner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 3:14 PM
 To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
 Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] Mac Java Performance
 
 
  Hi Landon,
 
I have some experience using Java and Eclipse on
 the Mac.  I had
 similar experiences, Java is certainly slower on the
 Mac than on
 Windows.  Apple is to some degree responsible for
 the development of the
 Mac JDK and they  promote Java objects to 'first
 class citizens'.  They
 are typically a few paces behind the windows
 version.  The media
 libraries do work fairly well though I might add. 
 If you are working
 with Imaging in Java I can certainly provide a lot
 of info.
 
   I am curious as to why you chose the Mac as your
 platform...  The last
 few run-ins I had with the Mac were 1) a company
 that was receiving
 funding directly from Apple, 2) a small company whos
 owner was so
 absolutely fed up with Windows he was willing to try
 anything to get
 out, 3) my IPod.  Macs are great but the user share
 is very small.  They
 are virtually unused outside of America.  Eastern
 European developers I
 work with have never even seen one...
 
   -josh
 
 
 --- Landon Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
  Sorry if this is off-topic, but I noticed that
 there appears to be 
  some Mac users on this list.  I recently purchased
 a 15
  powerbook 1.67Ghz
  machine and for Java development... well, to be
 honest... it is 
  sub-optimal.  It appears that the JDK is just
 plain slow!  On a 
  project that I am working on, running the core
 unit tests on a 2 yr 
  old thinkpad takes less than 1 min, on the brand
 new mac it takes over
 
  2 minutes.  Eclipse is equally slow compared to
 windows for me.  The 
  incremental rebuild of eclipse takes so long on my
 mac that I have 
  gone back to using my Thinkpad for development. 
 Here is what I have 
  tried to improve performance:
  
   
  
  1.  Disable Spotlight on my dev folders.
  2.  Add memory (I have 1.5 GB on the mac, 1 GB on
 the
  thinkpad).
  3.  Tried the latest 1.5 version of the Apple JDK.
  
   
  
  So here are my questions:
  
  Are other people finding Eclipse / JDK slow on the
 Mac?  Did tiger 
  slow down the performance of Java (Tiger is a nice
 OS, but I think 
  that I would have really liked Jaguar more. I find
 myself constantly 
  on the verge of permanently disabling Spotlight
 and Dashboard Widgets 
  haven't jumped out at me as necessary for the way
 I work.)?
  
   
  
  I am thinking that I might have to go back to my
 old
  laptop :(
  
   
  
  Thanks,
  
  Landon
  
  
 
 
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Re: [jug-discussion] Mac Java Performance

[josh zeidner]

Hey Todd,

  I said Eastern Europe.

  France and Belgium, as usual is the exception as
their politics tends to favor whatever is not dominant
in the US.  They have been the Mac outpost possibly
since the 80s.  There is some in UK, Sweden and few
others.  Very little in Germany- they are very
linux/java friendly with SuSE( now Novell ).  Anything
east of there they are rarely found outside of maybe
Greece or Israel.  It comes down to dollars and cents-
they can't afford the things.  Overall, most macs live
in the US.

  I like to chat with foreign developers and I find
that in Eastern Europe, Java is extremely popular for
developers and for some odd reason the Sun EJB server
is popular( Ukraine and Russia ) and I have yet to see
it used in the US, also JBoss and Apache tech is very
well utilized.  In India you have a situation where
internal competition is getting higher and groups are
certainly looking towards open source for cheaper
solutions( see Daffodil DB ).  Macs are also rarely
found there.  I currently work with an Indian group
and they are very happy to be using an Open source CRM
solution.  

  Europe typically uses a combo of Windows and Linux
for biz apps.  They begrudgingly use Windows.  MSFT is
extremely belligerent in their business tactics with
European companies, and many of the large ones have
just been bludgeoned into submission.  MSFT has
recently been under scrutiny of the European
Commission for anti-competitive practices.  They will
possibly be fined yet again.  They refuse to cooperate
with the ECs demands to separate their media player
from the rest of the OS.  The MSFT software patent
lobby utterly failed in their purpose to fortify EU
patent law.  The synopsis is: EU says MSoft go home! 
Us lucky americans get MSFT all to ourselves. 

  -josh

--- Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 Your kidding yourself if you think Mac's are a U.S.
 centric thing.  Try
 western europe a bit.  Actually found Mac's in many
 coffee shops when I
 was in Brussels and Nice.
 Been a few years now, but I don't think uncle Bill
 is that much more
 popular in europe.
 -Todd 
 
 Todd R. Ellermann
 President PHXJUG.org
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 602-738-6187
 
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Re: [jug-discussion] Mac Java Performance

[josh zeidner]

  A lot of general config issues were solved in
Fedora.  Of course the hard core slashdotters have
repudiated this distribution in favor of more nutty
varieties like Gentoo or Debian.  Fact is, writing
mouse config scripts is not exactly the most glamorous
thing in the world.  The thing just installs itself
with no problems in typical setups.  Its pretty nice,
nice graphics etc.  And if you want to really deck it
out, it is linux after all so go have your fun.  RPMs
can get a little obnoxious sometimes, granted.

  Most of MS outsiders such as myself appreciate Red
Hat and the fact that people are making money on
Linux.  L. Torvalds recently tried to trademark the
word 'Linux' and this was met with some serious
backlash amongst powerful nerds worldwide.  This
certainly shows an important progression happening.

  What the moderates are interested in is a general
reform of our concept of intellectual property and are
trying to prototype situations where work is generally
easier and less costly.  I want the right people to
get payed after all, and I think that is the general
idea.  Secondly, I want to be able to use cheap
foreign labor without it upsetting natural domestic
costs scales.  The fact is that if there were a
consensus as to higher level standards, then most low
level programming tasks would no longer be a problem. 
This puts lots of people out of business naturally,
but also opens up a lot more possibilities for the
market in general.  But generally I believe that
nothing serious is going to happen until some third
party steps in and breaks up the ruckus.  Because
until someone or something stops the constant
backstabbing, this evolution is not going to take
place.

  IBM is premier org that is pushing for Linux + Java
primarily because it bypasses you know who.  It shows
you what a problem they have become.

  -jmz



 ---
 
 I HATE LINUX, by Nick
 
 Here is an email thread that I found when looking at
 how to make my  
 new mouse stop rocketing around the screen like a
 goddamn jack russel  
 terrier on speed:
 
 
 My mouse was far too sensitive when I started. (By
 any chance did you
 switch to a Evoluent Vertical Mouse 2?) My problem
 turned out to be
 that all my mouse input was being read twice in
 XF86Config. (Once by
 Mouse0 and another time by DevInputMouse) This
 resulted in my
 cursor moving twice as far as it would normally
 whenever I moved it.
 
 One fix (assuming this is your problem) is to
 comment out the
 DevInputMouse line in the SeverLayout section of
 XF86Config. Now
 mine looks like this:
 
 Section ServerLayout
  Identifier  AGPTwinView
  Screen  Monitor
  InputDevice Keyboard0 CoreKeyboard
  InputDevice Mouse0 CorePointer
  #InputDeviceDevInputMice AlwaysCore
 
  Option blank time5
  Option standby time  10
  Option suspend time  15
  Option off time  20
 EndSection
 
 Hope that helps,
 Andy
  
 
 NB: This makes as much sense to me, a trained
 programmer as it does  
 to you, the non techie.  [This post was written for
 a non-tech  
 audience.] What the fuck is wrong with this OS? Why
 does modifying  
 your fucking mouse settings have to be such a
 complicated fucking  
 disaster?
 
 ---
 
 
 
 On Sep 22, 2005, at 4:42 PM, Jim Secan wrote:
 
  A general response to the why Mac with so few
 users remark.  I  
  think a
  lot of people are starting to take a serious look
 at the Mac  
  platform now
  that OS X is getting more mature.  I've been
 living in a
  PCWindows-PCLinux-Solaris world for many years and
 it has driven me
  starkers.  I just recently purchased a 20 G5 iMac
 to play with at  
  home and
  see whether it's ready for use at work, and I've
 about convinced  
  myself
  that it is.  I'm still on Panther but plan to jump
 to Tiger (and  
  disable
  Spotlight and pull all widgets) in the near
 future.  I think you'll be
  seeing more developers and power-users moving to
 the Mac platform,
  particularly with the upcoming jump to Intel
 processors.
 
  I have seen complaints here and there on the web
 regarding poor Java
  performance on OS X, but I've not cared enough to
 look closely.   
  You might
  try googling OS X Java performance and see what
 you get.
 
  Jim
 

*-*---*
  | Jim Secan   | Northwest Research Assoc,
 Inc |
  | ([EMAIL PROTECTED])  | 2455 E. Speedway, Suite
 204   |
  | (520) 319-7773  | Tucson, Arizona 85719 
|
  |Space Weather Info: http://www.nwra-az.com/  
|
 

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[jug-discussion] Slashdot: Open source Java?

[josh zeidner]

http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/15/2036234from=rss



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Re: [jug-discussion] the great app smackdown ;-)

[josh zeidner]

  SVG is a contender in this space.  Adobe's recent
aquisition of Macromedia may spell the end of support
by Adobe, but the Mozilla and Linux community is
clearly behind SVG and Microsoft does their
predictable regaling and vaporware releases to please
the software community.  Certainly worth checking out.
 jmz


--- Warner Onstine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Last night at the after-meeting beer fest at Gentle
 Ben's Tim found a 
 new victim for his Rich Internet App tirade, err,
 enlightened point of 
 view (which I happen to share to a certain degree).
 During his 
 speechifying Tim began to proclaim that Flex was the
 bomb and that all 
 should bow before it as the new King of RIA (alright
 maybe those 
 weren't his exact words, but you get the idea). So,
 being the OSS geek 
 that I am I challenged him to write a Flex app and I
 would write the 
 comparable Laszlo app so that all could see the
 pluses and minuses of 
 both frameworks. Tim begged off citing something
 called lack of time, 
 whatever that means.
 
 After everyone left Duffy and I were walking back to
 the U and thinking 
 about how this could get turned into a different
 format for the 
 meetings. Basically pick a specific application (I
 proposed the Wafer 
 project - http://www.waferproject.org as the basis
 for this) and then 
 have this application written in different
 frameworks for a cool 
 comparison and we could all see (and learn) from
 others' explorations.
 
 What does everyone think of this? I would preferably
 like to see a 
 smackdown type of meeting with two frameworks going
 head-to-head, but 
 maybe that's just me ;-).
 
 Since I don't know anyone else who has done any work
 on Flex, I thought 
 a good Tapestry vs. JSF smackdown would be in order.
 
 What does everyone think? Other smackdowns? Other
 applications?
 
 -warner
 
 

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Re: [jug-discussion] the languages that we create....

[josh zeidner]

Andrew,

  interesting things here re: open source darwinism. 
What is not being addressed is the 'hype' allele. 
This is the situation where qualities evolve on thier
own that are not actually useful or productive
qualities,  but are only features of advertising and
hype for the project.  For instance, a peacock tail
evolved naturally, but actually runs counter to the
survival of the organism and the society of peacocks(
actually only male peacocks have these outragous
tails- tells you a few things about the natural world
).  Likewise, many F/OSS projects evolve in this way-
they concentrate purely on these buzzword qualifiers
and fail to address any real problems, or fail to
survive.  So the moral of the story is that OSS is
indeed a quality that I look for in software, it does
not automatically qualify a project for adoption.  You
can still have F/OSS vaporware.

--- Andrew Huntwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Various People said:
   [various things i don't care about]
 
 tomcat,apache httpd, tapestry, struts, ant, and bcel
 have all made my 
 job or my hobby easier at one time or another.  i'm
 sure other 
 apache.org projects have made other people's work
 easier.  i care oh so 
 very little about whether these or other projects
 are evil or 
 disfunctional.  no one forces me to use any of them.
 
 on an unrelated note, ASF and other communities
 could be thought of in 
 genetic terms.  a project is an allele.  popular
 projects are high 
 frequency alleles.  useless and sucky projects
 become extinct. 
 mutation, i.e., letting new projects into the
 community, is, in this 
 model, very important.  it allows the community to
 adapt to a changing 
 environment, etc, read your genetics textbook.
 
 An interesting thing about mutation is that the rate
 of mutation in a 
 species is an evolved trait.  different species have
 different mutation 
 rates, and mutation rate affects fitness.  if ASF
 allows too many new 
 projects and for example codehaus has a better
 (lower) mutation rate, 
 then eventually ASF might die or something.
 
 There are all kinds of problems with this analogy. 
 It assumes that the 
 quality of a project is unknowable at the outset so
 mutations are in 
 fact random.  This might actually be reasonable. 
 Groovy apparently 
 looked for quite a while like a good project and has
 recently started 
 sucking.  bcel started out looking very cool, but
 kind of died for a 
 while (though it might be back again).  considering
 the many 
 non-technical reasons an open source project may
 fail, judging project 
 quality at any point in its evolution seems tricky
 enough to make 
 randomness reasonable.
 
 Another problem with my analogy might be that it's
 been a while since i 
 took a genetics class and didn't exactly ace that
 one.  And maybe this 
 is all just BS.  who knows.
 

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Re: [jug-discussion] IoC and object encapsulation

[josh zeidner]

I don't know about you, but I sure am excited about
this new up-and-coming design pattern!  Better get in
on the ground floor... now what major products support
Ioc?  Please tell me, quick, i'll do anything... money
is no object.  Im through with thinking, just give me
IoC!  Who is the local IoC expert?  I must employ him
at all costs!

--- Warner Onstine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I simply must put my foot down, I don't care what
 the title of this 
 list is (discussion or not), but we do not need
 *more* discussion on 
 this list ;-).
 
 -warner
 
 On Feb 10, 2005, at 4:23 PM, Tim Colson ((tcolson))
 wrote:
 
  Hey gang -
 
   I've been waiting for this... article(s) that
 aren't as warm and fuzzy
  toward IoC...
 
 

http://www.theserverside.com/articles/article.tss?l=IOCandEJB
 
  I don't have time to read until the weekend...but
 thought this article
  might spur some interesting discussion here on the
 jug list.
 
  Cheers,
  Timo
 
 

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[jug-discussion] Apache Geronimo: Apache Initiates open source J2EE project

[josh zeidner]

http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=20763

there are some critics of JBoss' legalities:

http://galatea.com/opensource.html





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[jug-discussion] CNet Asia: Open source reshaping services market

[josh zeidner]

http://asia.cnet.com/news/software/0,39037051,39212540,00.htm




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[jug-discussion] JDJ: JBoss Preferred By Enterprise Over IBM, Oracle, BEA

[josh zeidner]

http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=47746de=1




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Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring

[josh zeidner]

Hello Richard,

  I did make a recent comment about Spring on Azipa so
I feel obligated to make a statement here.  The
general question that I am interested in is: how is
Spring going to make my life easier?  Although it
claims to be some kind of 'cure' for the 'problems of
EJB' it appears to be a lot more complicated tool that
is designed to solve the very same problem as
EJB(container managed persistence may not be
high-performance, but I would not expect it to given
the level of simplicity that it provides ).  There is
a reoccuring trend in the architecture world where
various platforms claim to have solved the problem of
a centralized naming source( Jini, MQ*Series ), but in
the end every distributed platform must have an index
of its resources to be accessable.  I think that
Spring may have been some kind of reaction to what
happened with JBoss.  In california it is fashionable
to be using the Spring framework( in the java server
market ), possibly because every manager wants to rid
himself of these egghead $100K architects who are way
more trouble than theyre worth.  The kind of people
who want to stay conveniently aloof of the 'business
domain' and concentrate of 'pure OOP' problems(
seeking the blessing of high priest Grady Booch ). 
Instead, they get to deal with overpriced Spring
architects.  To me it would appear that the best
platform for heavy duty business server is JBoss.  EJB
programmers are much easier to find, and thus lower
cost, easier maintenance.  EJB is a well thought out
technology designed to solve these problems.  If I
build in spring it will cost at the bottom $150K to
support+ initial development costs ~$100K- and the
cost/size curve is pretty steep.  Not a cheap
'solution' if you ask me.  The average mid size
server( 3 [archi]techs + internal support ) I would
estimate to cost ~$500K/year.  you can find decent EJB
people for ~60K( Sun offers certificatin now ).  Its
almost as if Spring is for those who want to keep the
level of 'esoteric knowledge' high- because that keeps
salaries high.

  The server architecture world is very over inflated
right now.  I think much of it has to do with the IBM
marketing efforts.  It is almost as if the same
marketing manager from the mainframe department moved
into Websphere.  IBM in turn resorts to its common set
of 'business standards'(workflow, etc. ).  Generally,
IBM hypes up their product and its APIs with
power/compatibility, and then sells a product that
falls woefully short of their promises.  In steps over
priced architect to save the day.  It is more of a
social problem if anything.  If the platform does not
work, the 'architect' does not complain because it is
his job to be an expert in this technology.  The
project manager never hears anything about websphere
but what comes from IBM via trade journals.  Meanwhile
millions are being spent and no one is to blame.  Not
a good situation for business owner.  In the 80s
billions were lost in the CORBA world this way: too
much technology is one way of looking at the
situation.  Web Services is another- these ideas of
interoperability between business over digital network
is not at all new( EDI was invented in the 70s I
believe ).  Using SOAP/XML-RPC/UDDI does not really
automatically solve your problems or make you a genius
because you know how to use them.  A department who
wants to employ these standards should just train the
people they already have- invest a relatively small
amount in having them learn XML( not difficult for a
sysadmin developer ) and adapt it to the system they
already know( and this activity of integration is the
meat of the problem ).

  It just seems like Spring is another quick solution,
liquid simplicity type product.  The J2EE without
EJB book generally suggest building a system with an
array of disjointed OSS tools- all using parochial
formats and APIs.  Sounds like a huge liability to me.
  

  sincerely, Josh Zeidner

--- Richard Hightower [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 If you have not looked into Spring yet, it is
 time. That's Rick
 Hightower's New Year's advice. As Rod Johnson once
 put it: Spring puts the
 OO back in J2EE development, he continues. What
 makes Spring different than
 the other frameworks and containers, Hightower
 explains, is that Spring goes
 beyond just being an IoC container or an AOP
 framework.
 
 http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=47735de=1
 
 The article (like the last one I wrote) started out
 as being a blog entry

(http://jroller.com/page/RickHigh/20050107#spring_plug).
 
 It is nice when the JDJ picks it up and gives it
 more exposure. The last
 blog entry turned article I wrote was read quite a
 bit according to the JDJ
 folks. 
 
 I've written some follow up ideas at: 
 
 http://www.arc-mind.com/papers/springIsGood.html 
 
 
 
 
 -- r i c kh i g h t o w e r
 -- Senior Mentor
 -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 -- http://www.arc-mind.com
 -- p: 520-290-6855
 -- m: 520-661-6753
 -- f: 520-290-4179
 -- 15378 e colossal cave rd

Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring

[josh zeidner]

well Ollie, I have to hand it to you, at least your ad
hominem attacks are entertaining.  Looks like weve got
a lot of Spring peoples here- sorry guys, didnt mean
to burst your bubble, rock the boat, upset the apple
cart, etc., etc.  Just looking for an educated reply
to some points...

--- Ollie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Me thinks the lady protesteth too much. 
 -Original Message-
 From: josh zeidner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:52:43 
 To:jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
 Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article
 on Spring
 
 
 Nicholas,
 
   Of course Spring is simpler!  because it doesn't
 try
 to solve as many problems, instead the developer /
 architect has to write and support that code him or
 herself!  At the cost of the customer!
 
   I am surely not the only one in the Java world who
 is suggesting these points.  I'm not baiting anyone(
 what do you think I stand to gain? ).  Ive already
 been in enough heated discussions recently( maybe
 some
 of you caught the 'municipal Wifi' thread ).  This
 is
 a list where Java subjects are discussed( I think ).
  
 
   In the end I would hope that a
 consultant/developer
 is offering his or her client either a competitive
 advantage or a cost savings.  In my experience, the
 'architects' rarely do either.
 
   I don't see it as some kind of coincidence that as
 soon as EJB development became affordable and
 accessible, that some 'expert' declares it unusable
 for some reason, and invents some new technology
 that
 will save the day( and simultaneously a million
 professionals crop up ).  If OSS is what you want,
 you
 can do that with Tomcat/JBoss.  I can find qualified
 developers through Sun's program, why delve into
 local
 meritocracy/salary rating scheme if I know 1) what
 this technology does, 2)what people can utilize it,
 3)what platforms are reliable.  EJB is much cheaper
 to
 use these days- and the technology hasn't changed.  
 
 Most of these Spring architects were selling EJB 3
 years ago when it payed well from the developer end.
 
 What are they telling those customers today?
 
   These aren't bait questions, I am actually looking
 for an answer to justify Spring.  
 
  Those who have used both (e.g. me, e.g. Rick) know
  which one we prefer, 
  AND which one is simpler.
 
   it certainly is better from the developer
 perspective.  But if I were a project manager, and I
 am interested purely in the costs of development and
 support, do you really think that Spring is going to
 be a better solution?  What, if anything justifies
 me
 adopting a panoply of object databases, messaging
 frameworks, and object APIs instead of an OSS
 platform
 that has wide industry latitude and is very cost
 effective?  It just does not really make sense for
 the
 project manager.
 
   As far as the UML, Grady Booch world is concerned,
 I
 have seen millions wasted on UML.  UML is both more
 complex and less discrete than most programming
 languages.  UML is another technology that has had
 its
 chance during the CORBA era, and failed to offer any
 serious value.  If you know anything about the
 history
 of latin, by the end of the roman empire it had
 become
 so complex and formalized that the only people who
 were qualified to write legal statutes had to train
 for 20 years.  The Latin that we know from this
 period
 was not even spoken- much the same way that UML is
 often spoken about, but rarely used in practice.  It
 was the downfall of Rome, the costs of running the
 empire were too high to justify its existence.  In
 come the barbarians.  Usually when I comment on this
 someone immediately produces a UML document, but
 being
 in the trenches I can tell you that there is way too
 much overhead involved in actually utilizing this
 visual language.
 
   If I were a manager I would be very wary of
 Spring. 
 Sure there is less there, but that doesn't mean that
 it is going to cost less.  IBM has a lot to do with
 this.  They are a once the main source of industry
 research data and the primary productizers. If that
 doesn't spell *inflated costs* to you- take a look
 at
 the pharmaceutical industry.  Microsoft has a
 different character but they are equally troubled by
 internal bureaucrats.  I can tell you that this
 combination coupled with what looks like a fallout
 from Sun will create a lot of turmoil.  Other kinds
 of
 apps will take center stage...
 
 
   -josh 
 
 --- Nicholas Lesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Not taking the bait. You shouldn't either Rick. I
  don't want 40 emails 
  in my box about EJB vs. Spring. Take it up on
  BileBlog or the TSS 
  forums or somewhere if you must.
  
  Those who have used both (e.g. me, e.g. Rick) know
  which one we prefer, 
  AND which one is simpler. Those interested in
  debating the merits of 
  spring here can do so without resorting to phrases
  like:
  
  egghead $100K architects
  
  and
  
  seeking the blessing of high priest Grady Booch
  
  yeesh!
  
  Nicholas

Re: [jug-discussion] Eclipse Plugin/SWT experts

[josh zeidner]

Hello,

  I have worked with Eclipse plug-ins before.  What
are you looking to do?

  -josh z

--- Richard Hightower [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Are there any Eclipse plugin/SWT experts in town?
 
 
 -- r i c kh i g h t o w e r
 -- Senior Mentor
 -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 -- http://www.arc-mind.com
 -- p: 520-290-6855
 -- m: 520-661-6753
 -- f: 520-290-4179
 -- 15378 e colossal cave rd
 -- Tucson, AZ 85641
 
 New Publications:
 Warner Onstine  Rick Hightower have a new book,
 Professional Java 
 Tools for Extreme Programming : Ant, XDoclet, JUnit,
 Cactus,  Maven, 
 available now at your local bookstore and
 Amazon.com:
 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764556177/
 
 Rick Hightower has two new books, Professional
 Jakarta Struts, 
 available now aat your local bookstore and
 Amazon.com: 
 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764544373
 and Struts Live 
 available through SourceBeat.com: 
 http://www.sourcebeat.com/TitleAction.do?id=3
 
 
 
  
 
 

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Re: [jug-discussion] How kids learn to program - Squeak

[josh zeidner]

  Another great product in this realm was 'Rocky's
Boots' which allowed kids to build digital logic
circuits.  Its available through an Apple II emulator:

  http://www.warrenrobinett.com/rockysboots/

  ahhh... memories.  Also- are you looking for a
volunteer?

  -Josh Zeidner



--- Tim Colson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Not necessarily Java - the dev site is down so I
 can't verify... but
 darn interesting none the less... 
 
 I was cleaning up a few files, and ran across my
 notes on a 3 year old
 quest of mine to re-find ChipWits. Ostensibly, CW
 was a game written
 in MacForth that ran on the original 128K Mac. The
 purpose of the game
 was to build a 'robot' using a graphical programming
 language (IBOL)
 that could beat other robots in its quest for power
 chips (or some silly
 thing). 
 
 It was a 'fun' way to essentialy learn programming.
 (Much more fun than
 the crap I was able to do on the TRS-80 or Apple II+
 the two years
 before.)
 
 I did a quick Google which linked to a comment to a
 Java.net article on
 How do kids learn to program these days??? 
 http://weblogs.java.net/pub/wlg/564
 
 ...and found another comment further down from our
 very own Erik Hatcher
 about Squeak.
 
 This is cool. After reading this intro, I think
 Squeak would have had a
 profound impact compared to the Vic-20 - which was
 of course amazing in
 its 1981, 3.5K RAM, 1.01Mhz way. 
 

http://www.squeakland.org/school/drive_a_car/html/Drivecar12.html
 
 I wonder if any schools here in Tucson have tried
 Squeak, and if not, if
 they'd be interested in a volunteer who'd enjoy
 getting some 10 year
 olds excited about programming? :-)
 
 Cheers,
 Timo
 
 

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