KR> Fuel injection - megasquirt
On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 9:22 PM, Tony King via KRnet wrote: > Rotax has clearly decided EFI is the way to go. But have you seen the > complexity of their implementation on the 912iS? Running an EFI like > Megasquirt or SDS in an aircraft can and has been done, but it introduces a > lot of new failure modes that you need to understand and make a conscious > choice whether to address them or live with them. And addressing them > equals time and (frequently) complexity. That's fine if that's your thing, > and the results should be a smoother running and more economical engine. > But don't underestimate the effort required to get it working well and > reliably. > > I'd love to put EFI on my KR2S when I get to setting up the engine. But > I'd rather fly than tinker, so I probably won't. > > Cheers, > > Tony > Collaboration will make it easy to set up. The biggest threat to these systems are heat and moisture. when protected properly they are very reliable. So much so that even single plug per cylinder systems are almost bulletproof. > On 29 January 2015 at 06:13, Chris Prata via KRnet > wrote: > >> >> I'm just throwing this out here to see if fuel injection as a way to move >> past carb issues, get more precise fueling and better performance is >> happening on KR's. >> Personally, I'm looking (hoping) to build a near-original KR1, and keep it >> as simple as possible (other than a possible retractable tri-gear, >> in-flight adjustable prop, belted redrive, and turbocharger system, and >> full autopilot, LOL). >> Anyway, here is the megasquirt info: >> http://www.msextra.com/ >> >> -Chris >> > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search. > To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change > options
KR> Fuel injection-megasquirt
this Bing carb. are standard carbs on Rotax 912 Engines (very successful!!) They are also used on BMW motorcycles. Beside my Kr ,I restored a Pelican Ul with a Global half VW engine and replaced the old Stromberg cadb. and mounted a Bing carb. Works fine ! Herbert Fuerle German Kr Von meinem iPad gesendet
KR> Fuel injection - megasquirt
Sonex sells one for their VW type engine. It should work with yours. I am not sure it will be available for non-AeroVee engines though. Gary - Canada From: Chris Prata via KRnet Subject: Re: KR> Fuel injection - megasquirt "that's interesting to me because I am very keen on fitting a small turbocharger, if that tiny cowling has the room. the benefits are a good bump in takeoff and climb performance even at low boost, and normalizing (plus some) at high density altitude. ..
KR> Fuel injection - megasquirt
Rotax has clearly decided EFI is the way to go. But have you seen the complexity of their implementation on the 912iS? Running an EFI like Megasquirt or SDS in an aircraft can and has been done, but it introduces a lot of new failure modes that you need to understand and make a conscious choice whether to address them or live with them. And addressing them equals time and (frequently) complexity. That's fine if that's your thing, and the results should be a smoother running and more economical engine. But don't underestimate the effort required to get it working well and reliably. I'd love to put EFI on my KR2S when I get to setting up the engine. But I'd rather fly than tinker, so I probably won't. Cheers, Tony On 29 January 2015 at 06:13, Chris Prata via KRnet wrote: > > I'm just throwing this out here to see if fuel injection as a way to move > past carb issues, get more precise fueling and better performance is > happening on KR's. > Personally, I'm looking (hoping) to build a near-original KR1, and keep it > as simple as possible (other than a possible retractable tri-gear, > in-flight adjustable prop, belted redrive, and turbocharger system, and > full autopilot, LOL). > Anyway, here is the megasquirt info: > http://www.msextra.com/ > > -Chris >
KR> Fuel injection - megasquirt
"Now, this is mostly a car-hobbyist system" If you are interested in this then look up SDS (Simple Digital Systems). One of the first things you will see is aircraft applications even Reno. Two to eight cylinders, normally aspirated or boosted, fuel injection or carbs, liquid or air cooled, knock sensor with nearly infinite programming possibilities. This is the system that comes from Titan for their TF-51. Incredible system. Stephen Teate Paradise, Texas The information in this email is confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not an intended recipient, you should delete this message. Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized, and any disclosure, copying, distribution or action taken or omitted in reliance on it is prohibited and may be unlawful.
KR> Fuel injection - megasquirt
that's interesting to me because I am very keen on fitting a small turbocharger, if that tiny cowling has the room. the benefits are a good bump in takeoff and climb performance even at low boost, and normalizing (plus some) at high density altitude. I was thinking of the economy and reliability of a smaller engine 1600/1835 with the power coming from boost. otherwise there is always the 2300 revmaster, or I could keep and install my Jabiru 2200 which is 85hp at sea level. BUT, if the turbo becomes doable, then having the precise fuelling and the safety of a knock sensor would be a good compliment to that pathway. > Subject: Re: KR> Fuel injection - megasquirt > From: krnet at list.krnet.org > > "Now, this is mostly a car-hobbyist system" > > If you are interested in this then look up SDS (Simple Digital Systems). One > of the first things you will see is aircraft applications even Reno. Two to > eight cylinders, normally aspirated or boosted, fuel injection or carbs, > liquid or air cooled, knock sensor with nearly infinite programming > possibilities. This is the system that comes from Titan for their TF-51. > Incredible system. > > Stephen Teate > Paradise, Texas >
KR> Fuel injection - megasquirt
Look at Simple Digital Systems they make a setup that is great on auto conversions and even certified engines in the experimental world. Richard Kaczmarek Fast Little Airplanes LLC 937-243-7303 On Jan 28, 2015 3:14 PM, "Chris Prata via KRnet" wrote: > I've been a car hobbyist for years, installing and modifying my own fuel > injected turbocharger system and such. One of my friends in the hobby who > has done interesting things with engines and so on, got involved with > Mega-Squirt years ago when it first was created. > Basically it's a universal simple fuel injection system that can be > managed and reprogrammed. I think it is a closed-loop system, reading a > Oxygen sensor, a manifold pressure sensor, and calibrating fuel delivery. > New versions can also intercept ignition signalling from the flywheel > sensor and adjust timing. Not sure if there is a knock detector function or > not. > Now, this is mostly a car-hobbyist system, but it does seem to enjoy a > good reputation. Every car I've had in recent years is fuel injected with > zero issues. > I'm just throwing this out here to see if fuel injection as a way to move > past carb issues, get more precise fueling and better performance is > happening on KR's. > Personally, I'm looking (hoping) to build a near-original KR1, and keep it > as simple as possible (other than a possible retractable tri-gear, > in-flight adjustable prop, belted redrive, and turbocharger system, and > full autopilot, LOL). > Anyway, here is the megasquirt info: > http://www.msextra.com/ > > -Chris > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search. > To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change > options >
KR> Fuel injection - megasquirt
I've been a car hobbyist for years, installing and modifying my own fuel injected turbocharger system and such. One of my friends in the hobby who has done interesting things with engines and so on, got involved with Mega-Squirt years ago when it first was created. Basically it's a universal simple fuel injection system that can be managed and reprogrammed. I think it is a closed-loop system, reading a Oxygen sensor, a manifold pressure sensor, and calibrating fuel delivery. New versions can also intercept ignition signalling from the flywheel sensor and adjust timing. Not sure if there is a knock detector function or not. Now, this is mostly a car-hobbyist system, but it does seem to enjoy a good reputation. Every car I've had in recent years is fuel injected with zero issues. I'm just throwing this out here to see if fuel injection as a way to move past carb issues, get more precise fueling and better performance is happening on KR's. Personally, I'm looking (hoping) to build a near-original KR1, and keep it as simple as possible (other than a possible retractable tri-gear, in-flight adjustable prop, belted redrive, and turbocharger system, and full autopilot, LOL). Anyway, here is the megasquirt info: http://www.msextra.com/ -Chris
KR> Fuel injection - megasquirt
I'd consider a megasquirt on my Lotus 7-like car project, in fact I'm leaning toward that setup, but I understand carbs and will be using a carb on my airplane. Also a magneto and no engine -driven electrical charging system. Chris On 1/28/2015 1:13 PM, Chris Prata via KRnet wrote: > I've been a car hobbyist for years, installing and modifying my own fuel > injected turbocharger system and such. One of my friends in the hobby who has > done interesting things with engines and so on, got involved with Mega-Squirt > years ago when it first was created. > Basically it's a universal simple fuel injection system that can be managed > and reprogrammed. I think it is a closed-loop system, reading a Oxygen > sensor, a manifold pressure sensor, and calibrating fuel delivery. New > versions can also intercept ignition signalling from the flywheel sensor and > adjust timing. Not sure if there is a knock detector function or not. > Now, this is mostly a car-hobbyist system, but it does seem to enjoy a good > reputation. Every car I've had in recent years is fuel injected with zero > issues. > I'm just throwing this out here to see if fuel injection as a way to move > past carb issues, get more precise fueling and better performance is > happening on KR's. > Personally, I'm looking (hoping) to build a near-original KR1, and keep it as > simple as possible (other than a possible retractable tri-gear, in-flight > adjustable prop, belted redrive, and turbocharger system, and full > autopilot, LOL). > Anyway, here is the megasquirt info: > http://www.msextra.com/ > > -Chris > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search. > To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change > options > >
KR> Fuel injection for the Corvair?
Thanks Fred, I knew of SDF, but its been a while since I looked at the site, they have a lot more "examples" on there. I was following his RV-10 project with the Subaru 6 and like the other "examples" there is a lot of great craftsmanship at work in homebuilding shown. I also know about carbs, I rebuilt my first, a 2 bbl on a 51 Studebaker when I was 12. My Dad let me do it and he drove it to work the next day. Carbs work, but I think EFI is here to stay also. Putting a SDF system would no doubt be similar as doing it to a Lycoming. It was interesting to see the Aussie that still has a carb for a back-up to EFI, I bet that is a first! -Original Message- From: Fred Johnson Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 8:54 AM To: 'KRnet' Subject: RE: KR> Fuel injection for the Corvair? Try these guys: http://www.sdsefi.com/index.html fuel injection and electronic ignition Fred Johnson Reno, NV ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Fuel injection
> Carburetors do work just fine, and I wouldn't think you're going to get much better fuel economy than the 42 mpg at 160 mph that I'm getting now... I'm getting 38 mpg with an Ellison and a GP2180 at 150-155. These numbers are slowly improving as I continue my quest for that "perfect prop" and do some aerodynamic cleanup long overdue. Mine is a single place unlike Mark's so it's apples and oranges but just thought I'd mention it. Mike KSEE Groupon™ Official Site 1 ridiculously huge coupon a day. Get 50-90% off your city's best! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4e0c01bc51a3413a22bst04vuc
KR> Fuel injection for the Corvair?
The ENTIRE racing community?REALLY? - Original Message - From: "brooks townsend" To: Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 7:53 AM Subject: RE: KR> Fuel injection for the Corvair? > > >>I not going to go through what is possible as far as Electronic Fuel > >>Injection is concerned today. That could start a long thread, so I will > >>just ask this question. has anyone added EFI to a Corvair engine yet > >>that > >>anyone on the KRnet knows about and are they flying it? << How about answering a question with a question...I hate to sound like my wife... Ever wonder why the ENTIRE racing community still uses those OLD carbs??? > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3733 - Release Date: 06/29/11 06:34:00
KR> Fuel injection for the Corvair?
Well they also rebuild thier motors after every race, so the point? Not trying to be smart, but it's not a valid compare. Even production planes and new AC motors have gone the EFI route. This is not new tech anymore, with other systems coming online it will be outdated in 10-20 yrs and people will say, oh I remember the day we used Gas to fly our planes and we had injectors. Joe On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 3:53 PM, brooks townsend wrote: > > > > > > >>I not going to go through what is possible as far as Electronic Fuel > > >>Injection is concerned today. That could start a long thread, so I will > > >>just ask this question. has anyone added EFI to a Corvair engine yet > that > > >>anyone on the KRnet knows about and are they flying it? << > > How about answering a question with a question...I hate to sound like my > wife... > Ever wonder why the ENTIRE racing community still uses those OLD carbs??? > > > ___ > > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > -- Jose Fuentes Founding Father (one of and former Vice Prez) of Capital City.NET User's Group Former Microsoft MVP http://blogs.aspadvice.com/jfuentes
KR> Fuel injection for the Corvair?
> > >>I not going to go through what is possible as far as Electronic Fuel > >>Injection is concerned today. That could start a long thread, so I will > >>just ask this question. has anyone added EFI to a Corvair engine yet that > >>anyone on the KRnet knows about and are they flying it? << How about answering a question with a question...I hate to sound like my wife... Ever wonder why the ENTIRE racing community still uses those OLD carbs??? > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Fuel injection for the Corvair?
"pelle...@verizon.net" wrote: >>I not going to go through what is possible as far as Electronic Fuel >>Injection is concerned today. That could start a long thread, so I will >>just ask this question. has anyone added EFI to a Corvair engine yet that >>anyone on the KRnet knows about and are they flying it? << Roy Szarafinski has successfully installed an run FI on his Corvair, but has yet the fly the Zenith 701 that it's attached to. Ray Sedman sells such a kit for Corvairs, (see http://www.american-pi.com/corvair/corvhome.html ), and I'm sure others do as well. I was originally going to use CIS injection from a Mercedes or BMW on mine, but size, weight, and the number of components was daunting compared to a simple carb installation. Carburetors do work just fine, and I wouldn't think you're going to get much better fuel economy than the 42 mpg at 160 mph that I'm getting now... Mark Langford ML at N56ML.com website www.n56ml.com
KR> Fuel injection for the Corvair?
Try these guys: http://www.sdsefi.com/index.html fuel injection and electronic ignition Fred Johnson Reno, NV
KR> Fuel injection for the Corvair?
I not going to go through what is possible as far as Electronic Fuel Injection is concerned today. That could start a long thread, so I will just ask this question. has anyone added EFI to a Corvair engine yet that anyone on the KRnet knows about and are they flying it? It seems to me with the popularity of the Corvair engine now, this is likely to have been done, or someone could be working on it. (If someone would have said it CAN?T be done, then we know someone would quietly be doing it anyhow.)
KR> Fuel Injection
Dave Roy Szarafinski, rvick...@yahoo.com, has a Harley throttlebody that I had bought to possibly use on my Corvair. He was going to toy it as he thought it really had possibilities. I'm not sure if he has done anything with it yet. He also has a throttlebody of his own design that he has run on the Corvair on his Zenith 701 project. Mark Langford, n5...@hiwaay.net, also has the same throttlebody unit and was considering using it on engine someday. Robert Haines has also done work with a H-D throttlebody. Check his website www.hainesengineering.com/rhaines to see his work. Keep me posted if you decide to use an H-D throttlebody. My project is a couple of years away from needing an engine. Pete Klapp, building KR-2S N729PK, Canton, Ohio > From: bdazzca...@aol.com > Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:44:11 -0500 > To: kr...@mylist.net > Subject: KR> Fuel Injection > > Has anyone ran with the harley davidson fuel injection system yet and if so > how many gallons are you burning an hour? If anyone knows Please let me > know. > > > David Swanson > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html _ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/
KR> Fuel Injection
Has anyone ran with the harley davidson fuel injection system yet and if so how many gallons are you burning an hour? If anyone knows Please let me know. David Swanson
KR> fuel injection
I found a good fuel injection system.If you don't mind doing the work your self and tinkering with the fuel maps.It's fairly cheap and light.It's the MegaSquirt.Complete units can be found on Ebay.They have links to a great forum also.Yes,they are being ran on VW's and Corvair's.Check it out.www.megasquirt.info Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com
KR> fuel injection
Fellows: Need some advice about routing fuel lines. I have a fuel injection system and have run the pressure relief side of the system back into the top of my gasalator. This is normally where the priming system comes from I believe. Does this have a potential of forcing fuel back to my gas tank and therefore giving intermittent fuel flow to the pump and fuel rail? I would run a line from the relief back to the header tank if necessary but it will run quite well on the ground as is. But it sure could be making bubbles I suppose!! Any thoughts appreciated. Best regards Jim
KR> Fuel injection
Jim and netters This is why I have said that if you are not familiar you really need to get schooling on why things are done the way they are in fuel injection different from carbs. The return line from the pressure regulator side MUST return to the fuel tank, below or at the pickup point (fuel level) to allow proper recirculation so that the fuel pump which is also cooled by the fuel it is pumping can be prevented from over heating and short life, and to prevent aeration of the fuel (bubbling). Typically the fuel pumps required to make a fuel injection system work properly must pump alot more volume and pressure and get MUCH hotter internally than carb pumps do, and is why so many manufacturers went to installing them inside the fuel tanks. The fuel acts to cool the pumps along with a constant recirculation and the pump is always primed being immersed in fuel (unless you are out). Your system is providing a circulation loop, but will tend to send fuel both ways in your lines, potentially starving the system under acceleration. Look at ALL systems on cars and light trucks; they all recirculate back to the tank. Ford trucks went through a huge problem with their multi tank system, where the checking valve that was supposed to keep the fuel coming from the correct tank would malfunction causing the fuel to be pumped back into the other tank, instead of to the engine. Positive selection, individual check valves, and proper line organization are just some of the considerations. Colin Sanford, FL Ordered almost all support parts from Clarks Corvairs for the KRvair engine this morning. Sights are set on a mid June fire up!
KR> Fuel injection
Thanks Colin: Jim - Original Message - From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 2:49 PM Subject: KR> Fuel injection > Jim and netters > This is why I have said that if you are not familiar you really need to > get schooling on why things are done the way they are in fuel injection > different from carbs. > > The return line from the pressure regulator side MUST return to the fuel > tank, below or at the pickup point (fuel level) to allow proper > recirculation so that the fuel pump which is also cooled by the fuel it is > pumping can be prevented from over heating and short life, and to prevent > aeration of the fuel (bubbling). Typically the fuel pumps required to make > a fuel injection system work properly must pump alot more volume and > pressure and get MUCH hotter internally than carb pumps do, and is why so > many manufacturers went to installing them inside the fuel tanks. The fuel > acts to cool the pumps along with a constant recirculation and the pump is > always primed being immersed in fuel (unless you are out). > > Your system is providing a circulation loop, but will tend to send fuel > both ways in your lines, potentially starving the system under > acceleration. Look at ALL systems on cars and light trucks; they all > recirculate back to the tank. Ford trucks went through a huge problem with > their multi tank system, where the checking valve that was supposed to > keep the fuel coming from the correct tank would malfunction causing the > fuel to be pumped back into the other tank, instead of to the engine. > Positive selection, individual check valves, and proper line organization > are just some of the considerations. > > Colin > Sanford, FL > > Ordered almost all support parts from Clarks Corvairs for the KRvair > engine this morning. Sights are set on a mid June fire up! > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> fuel injection
Hello Jim Besides all the thing that Colin shared with you, the gasolator is never used in a pressure setting. My experience tells me that they are always a hair away from leaking at the best of times and would probably leak under the pressure of the return supply during a closed throttle condition and likely cause a fire. Orma L. Robbiins AP/IA Southfield, MI N110LR Tweety, old enough to drink this year Flying and more flying, to the gathering or bust http://www.kr-2.aviation-mechanics.com/
KR> fuel injection
Jim, I am building another plane (other than KR-2) which uses a fuel injected aircraft engine. The plane has two tanks. The returned fuel is switched by the fuel valve (separate circuit from supply) so as to return to the fuel tank that is currently supplying fuel. The fuel that is returned is introduced into the tank adjacent to the fuel vent, that is to say at the highest point in the tank. This is per the aircraft design. Ken Jones, kenbjo...@cinci.rr.com Sharonville, OH 85 hours and a fresh condition inspection on N5834, aka The Porkopolis Flying Pig - Original Message - From: "Jim Sellars" To: "KRnet" Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 12:47 PM Subject: Re: KR> fuel injection > Fellows: >Need some advice about routing fuel lines. I have a fuel injection > system and have run the pressure relief side of the system back into the > top > of my gasalator. This is normally where the priming system comes from I > believe. >Does this have a potential of forcing fuel back to my gas tank and > therefore giving intermittent fuel flow to the pump and fuel rail? I > would > run a line from the relief back to the header tank if necessary but it > will > run quite well on the ground as is. But it sure could be making bubbles I > suppose!! >Any thoughts appreciated. > Best regards > Jim > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html >
KR> fuel injection
Orma: Can I use the gasolator as the low point in the fuel supply and have a return to the tank, that is seperate from the gasolator? What do you think? That would have the gasolator at the low point, then the high pressure pump, to the fuel rail, then the return directly back to the fuel tank. That sounds better to me. Can I just close off that fitting on the top of the gasolator with a plug, since I will not be using a primer? PS thanks for the help. Jim - Original Message - From: "Orma" To: "KRnet" Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 7:07 PM Subject: Re: KR> fuel injection > Hello Jim > > Besides all the thing that Colin shared with you, the gasolator is never > used in a pressure setting. My experience tells me that they are always a > hair away from leaking at the best of times and would probably leak under > the pressure of the return supply during a closed throttle condition and > likely cause a fire. > > Orma L. Robbiins > AP/IA > Southfield, MI > N110LR Tweety, old enough to drink this year > Flying and more flying, to the gathering or bust > http://www.kr-2.aviation-mechanics.com/ > > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html >
KR> Re: KR> Fuel injection in planes( LONG so BEWARE)
Netters.I have been discussing the EFI with Ron Slender the owner of VW Engines Australia, His comments may be of interest to some, it is long!! Phillip, The comments made regarding fuel injection and the experience that some writers had are consistent to using a system in an auto. This may appear to be a cheaper solution it is fraught with possible problems in respect of sensors not required, altitude compensation, timing overall not to mention temperature operated at. RG are world leaders in providing EFI management for experimental aviation use. Demonstrated by our very successful RG TT 2200 and now the RG TT 2000 EFI. Our EFI runs on 2.5 Bar pressurenot 75 psi indicated. The computer controls the fuel pump and unlike an auto mechanical pump will keep on pumping as long as the engine is running. The RG engines run on MAP sensor, and head temperature for initial start enrichment. The engine is automatically leaned off according to map sensor at altitude. The computer also runs the ignition through an igniter and dual output coils. Advance and retard are controlled by the computer and the spark generated is better than a magneto could ever think about delivering through iridium spark plugs. Because the fuel map was done under a huge verity of load conditions the computer has been taught to deliver fuel and ignition according to those load demands. Optimum power delivery by precise fuel management and ignition that is what EFI is all about. Setting up for EFI properly is not cheap. You have to have a dyno to map in the engine. On air-cooled it is even more difficult because of the cooling required and the control of temperature because a tuned engine runs best at the temperature it was tuned at. Because it is easier to mount the engine in a car and to provide the cooling to it still a specially prepared car was needed to tune and map in the engine under a lot of various load conditions including acceleration rate under different loads. More expense. Not to mention the dyno time cost, fuel, long hours with highly technical personnel. One may THINK you can map in a EFI with the propeller because you are applying a load. In theory, but for that one propeller only, and at that pitch only. Change the pitch you will require a different tune. The wiring loom is a requirement so that guys cannot mess with it. Most of the aftermarket EFI specialists will tell you amateur EFI wiring almost in all cases has to be redone. That is why we include the loom ready made and tested with the engine so that this level of expertise is done to a very high standard complete with high quality terminals and crimping methods. To do all this for 1 engine is not practical unless it is a labour of love and determination to have FEI on an engine. That is why are engines are built as close as we can to the same specs so that the original tune is right for the engine. We have come a lot further now with the fact that if necessary you can data log your flight with a memory card or lap top. You can send us the data and we can make incremental changes if necessary and em mail a new program. You can have an on board 0 2 sensor but this doesn't control but reads only. You can read extra temperatures and what is really good with the new laws regarding the security of your aircraft you can unplug your computer, take it home, and NO ONE can fly your plane. Downside...cost, yes more expensive, no carb heat, more torque and power. Some of you may say that if this fails or that fails but the same can apply to any engine and on any component. When you boil it down to reality there is always the possibility of a single point failure that will stop the engine or any engine for that matter. I keep a couple of certified engine crankshafts on hand for that reason. They say that those engines are reliable.yes but I have 2 cranks that are cracked. When did they crack? Did they do it between pull downs? What would have happened if it had broken before the rebuild? Don't know really, but if it had broken in flight or just when you are up 100 ft it would have certainly stopped BOTH magnetos and stopped the pistons going sideways. This is experimental aviation guys where we can develop our ideas and put them into a new level of experience and the rules are to fly where you can land if necessary. Most that do abide by those rules are still alive to tell what happened. EFI..has to be the way to go because the components are more and more reliable at 2005 manufacturing level. Our engine.the 2000 and 2200 EFI aircooled gear drive. Currently the pick of the engines for the Typhoon and Cyclone aircraft. The choice of many aircraft builders including KR2, Europa, Sonex, Boomerang, XL Price of the engines are not as expensive as most 100 hp engines on the market and certainly more economical to maintain. Ron Slender Phillip Matheson mathe...@dodo.com.au Australia VH PKR See our engines and kits at. http://w
KR> Fuel injection in planes( LONG so BEWARE)
OK Colin I know this one is going to start a flame war but misinformation is worse than no information. First of all VW has been putting fuel injection on air-cooled engines since the late sixties or = early seventies. A quick Google regarding the Bosch system will tell you all = you need to know on the subject so I don't have to waste bandwidth here on = the Net. Next mechanical fuel injection has been around long before = electronic. Electronic ignition is now being used in Certified engines due to their proven reliability and less parts to screw up as do mags and = distributors. Next comes the statement FLY SAFE. Sorry but as an Instructor(?) you of all people should know that flying of any type is NOT safe, it is a series of calculated risks and risk management. Anyone concerned with = safety best turn in their pilot's license and dig an underground bunker to hide away from the world.=20 Whether a person flies a spam can or an experimental, the results are the same it is still risk management and is the pilot in command's responsibility to decide whether or not to fly. Those airline pilots = aren't just out for a stroll to stretch their legs prior to flight. They are evaluating the aircraft as to whether that aircraft poses an acceptable = risk before flight. That is why we all perform preflight and hopefully post flight checks. I could go on and on but by now you and hopefully those that follow the list will have got the drift. Those Corvair drivers will have = noticed that some of what I said sounds vaguely familiar. Yep, William Wynne = boys. This list has a lot of ex-military pilots and they can all attest that = risk management is a fact of life. What we normally would not do changes as = the mission dictates. Rather than all this safety talk all builders and flyers should be more intent on building and flying aircraft that are constructed with = risk management as the prime deciding factor before any changes are made or deviation from specifications. Doug Rupert Fuel injection is the cats meow for a combustion engine FLY SAFE! Colin & Beverly Rainey =20 --=20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.7 - Release Date: 4/12/2005 =20
KR> Fuel injection in planes( LONG so BEWARE)
Doug Rupert wrote: >>OK Colin I know this one is going to start a flame war but misinformation is worse than no information. First of all VW has been putting fuel injection on air-cooled engines since the late sixties or early seventies. << I used to be a "factory" VW mechanic at a dealership, and I have been a VW head since I was a kid, and I can tell you that those early "electronic" VW systems are problematic. If any one of about 25 ground wires falls off, you start having problems. I wouldn't fly with one of those if my life depended on it (and it would). Bosch CIS is far better (as you said), but it is bulky and way heavier than a carb. I know, because I've weighed it. I'd planned on using CIS myself, and I still may, but it's going to mean a bulge in the bottom of my cowling, and a weight increase over the lightweight carb and intake that I now have. I already have a fuel return line, which I'm now using as one of my two "completely redundant" fuel systems. But I'm just not sure it's worth the tradeoff. I can lean that Ellison down just as much as the CIS. The big advantage would be the elimination of carb icing, carb heat and mixture control knobs, and their constant adjustment. But the downside is weight, complexity, and having a 75 psi fuel pressure in the lines. You could start quite a fire in a hurry, and empty a tank in a hurry, with a ruptured fuel line. That's all manageable, and it's a trade, but the trade that made my decision is that I'll be flying at least a year earlier with that Ellison, than if I "engineered" a CIS setup, if not more. Once I get flying, I may reconsider CIS injection. There's more on this at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/CIS.html ... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
KR> Fuel injection in planes./ EFI VW
It seems to me that many of you have not had a look at the NEW range of VW EFI engines from Vw Engines Australia / USA. 100 to 115 HP He even has a PSRU for your Corvair Engine. http://www.vw-engines.com/ Phillip Matheson mathe...@dodo.com.au Australia VH PKR See our engines and kits at. http://www.vw-engines.com/ http://www.homebuilt-aviation.com/ See my KR Construction web page at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/FlyingKRPhil/VHPKR.html Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Fuel injection in planes( LONG so BEWARE)
Thanks for the first person info Mark. All I know is what I have read = and that has been rather hard to find. I was really looking at the setup = towards building a Type 4 until William=92s manual arrived. Now if I can get a = certain party in this area to part with one of the many vairs he has been = hording, the conversion shall begin. Doug =20 =20 --=20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.7 - Release Date: 4/12/2005 =20
KR> Fuel injection in planes./ EFI VW (Mark L)
Mark, I went to this website and seen the aluminum cylinders for the corvair. Have you done any research on these and what would be your thoughts on this. Bill Jeffries > He even has a PSRU for your Corvair Engine. > > > http://www.vw-engines.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
KR> Fuel injection in planes./ EFI VW (Mark L)
Go to www.lnengineering.com for another local American resource. It's where I brought mine. Ronald R. Eason Sr. Pres. & CEO, KCMO Office J.R.L. Engineering Consortium Ltd. -- Original Message -- From: William Jeffries Reply-To: KRnet List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 06:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Mark, I went to this website and seen the aluminum cylinders for the corvair. Have you done any research on these and what would be your thoughts on this. Bill Jeffries > He even has a PSRU for your Corvair Engine. > > > http://www.vw-engines.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Fuel injection in planes./ EFI VW (Mark L)
Bill Jeffries wrote: > I went to this website and seen the aluminum cylinders > for the corvair. Have you done any research on these > and what would be your thoughts on this. If I remember correctly, the price was astronomical, and I'm not so sure about reliability. I'd want a bunch of other folks to fly them first and prove they work before I sank that kind of money into them to save a few pounds of weightbut that's just my opinion at this point... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
KR> Fuel injection in planes./ EFI VW (Mark L)
Mark the aluminum is nice but look at the manufacturing bit. Machined = from billet and 10 fins per inch verses standard 6 for increased cooling. = Also no cast iron insert since the heat transfer between the different metals = does in fact impede proper cooling. Their inside coating is a refinement of = that used by Maule for years. To get a better picture of the full story you = have to check out the pistons as well as pins. The combination has one hell = of a price tag BUT it has been a proven system with the drag racing crowd in engines developing much more horsepower than we will even see. The only = real reason I can think of for justifying such cost would be for those contemplating turbo or supercharging as well as a completely bulletproof = top end. My opinion only and since I'm operating on a VERY strict budget = they are completely off the radar here. Doug=20 =20 --=20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.7 - Release Date: 4/12/2005 =20
KR> Fuel injection in planes./ EFI VW (Mark L)
Hello they are in great shape and later on if needed they are the rebuildable type. price is $450.00 for the both of them. Frank Tomko - Original Message - From: "Doug Rupert" To: "'KRnet'" Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 11:02 AM Subject: RE: KR> Fuel injection in planes./ EFI VW (Mark L) Mark the aluminum is nice but look at the manufacturing bit. Machined from billet and 10 fins per inch verses standard 6 for increased cooling. Also no cast iron insert since the heat transfer between the different metals does in fact impede proper cooling. Their inside coating is a refinement of that used by Maule for years. To get a better picture of the full story you have to check out the pistons as well as pins. The combination has one hell of a price tag BUT it has been a proven system with the drag racing crowd in engines developing much more horsepower than we will even see. The only real reason I can think of for justifying such cost would be for those contemplating turbo or supercharging as well as a completely bulletproof top end. My opinion only and since I'm operating on a VERY strict budget they are completely off the radar here. Doug -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.7 - Release Date: 4/12/2005 > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Fuel injection in planes
Not to start a new thread on a topic that has been much discussed and bunches of information can be found by a search in the archives, but to summarize for the new builders, at the risk of over simplifying: Fuel injection is the cats meow for a combustion engine. It solves all kinds of problems with intake design, fuel atomization, balanced mixture delivery, light weight engines, and so on... The problems with using these systems on an airplane come in 2 basic parts: 1) is the complexity of installing it by a person who is not thoroughly familiar with its design, so that he understands how critical the small details are in the installation, like how using just a different temp thermostat in the engine (water cooled setup) changes the way the computer controls things. Or the absence of a transmission, and catalytic converter/muffler assemblies changes cylinder dilution, and also has a negative effect on EGR operation due to reduced flow (ALL modern fuel injected engines use some form of Exhaust Gas Recirculation to reduce NOX emissions, and control detonation). 2) the difficulty of developing a light weight but strong PSRU, light weight cooling systems that are adequate, and having light weight but redundant systems to protect against failure are a huge challenge for the average builder. There are successful systems which I applaud, but most are expensive, and without the whole engine package being designed to maximize the injection system, are much more expensive than they are worth for just a smooth running engine. It is not an acceptance issue. Most builders acknowledge that it is better. It is the facts of an economical and safe alternative to systems that function without even electricity. I TOTALLY love modern electronic engines. But the thought of what would have happened the other day when leaving Massey Ranch Airpark and its 4000 foot long strip, which put me over the trees at 100 feet and no where to land, if I had lost my engine due to the one in a million electronic glitch, or the high pressure fuel pump failed causing total power loss, it is not if I would have crashed but where and how bad. It is not if it is good or not, but how it fails. Most builders don't understand how it works well enough to adapt it with the proper amount of support systems to make the takeoff failure not happen. If you have to take your car to a mechanic to do more than change the oil, because you don't know how to work on it, there is your answer for whether or not you should put such a system in your plane. No offense meant to anyone. I just know that I have worked on fuel injected cars for over 15 years, and WHEN I do install such a system into my plane, it will NOT just be a bolt-on setup. It is a major undertaking and should be treated as such. The KISS method works for most pilots because it is easy to install and get right, easy to maintain, and easy to troubleshoot when they have the inevitable problems that come with all things mechanical. For more discussion search the archives. There have been many threads on the topic, to include and extended one between Scott Cable and myself contrasting auto vs. aviation engines. FLY SAFE! Colin & Beverly Rainey Apex Lending, Inc. 407-323-6960 (p) 407-557-3260 (f) www.eloan2004cr.com crai...@apexlending.com
KR> Fuel injection
This post is for William Jefferies and netters First off let me dispel a myth that fuel injection ALONE improves engine performance and economy. It does not. What is does do is improve engine operation by providing better fuel atomization which results in smoother operation of the engine throughout its operating range. In order for an engine to get better economy by adding fuel injection with NO other changes to the engine, the fuel injection would have to make it so that the required fuel to the engine for proper mixtures would be less, so less fuel is burned at the same rpm as when it was carbureted. This of course is ridiculous. Simply changing the way the fuel is introduced into the engine is not going to change the amount required for proper fuel ratio. Typically what you see happen, especially in cars is that the manufacturer, having added fuel injection and increasing their control over fuel delivery, will also raise the compression ratio, and add more timing advance, because they computer control the timing already, and have knock sensors to pick up on any detonation long before the human ear would ever hear it. This allows for the computer to then make the mixture go beyond the stotiometric or ideal mix (14.7 pounds of air to 1 pound of fuel for auto gas ) to get better fuel economy, but then as needed richen up and retard timing to protect the engine and still preserve performance, as in while accelerating. I worked in the auto industry for over 12 years as a performance technician, and found all this information very well documented in William Wynne's Corvair conversion book. The fuel injection systems that really add performance to the engine operation require being installed as a package to get that performance. The problem becomes the redundancy required for safe flight conditions in the event of the different types of failures that can occur, though they may not happen often, one has to be prepared for when that "one time" happens to you. Throttle body injection is a total waste of time, for its added complexity, fuel pressure increase over gravity systems or mechanical pumps, and its total reliance on electrical power. I have fought with alternator problems for 6 months, and I can tell you that I am very glad to have the Slick Mag and gravity feed carb, which guarantees I will keep running even with dead battery. A mechanical pump on a Corvair is a typical GM style mechanical pump capable of maintaining fuel supply even from the wings of a KR if the line is already primed and no high G maneuvers are performed. I have sat here and fantasized about how good my plane would perform with a sequential fuel injected engine installed, and if I lost that engine at some 4000 or 5000 feet that I would be fine to execute and emergency landing, no big deal. That is what we train for as commercial pilots. We CIF's are forever pulling our students engines at 3000 feet and making them find a suitable landing spot. Then the other day I had a low power situation on takeoff, where I was only climbing 150 fpm, and I felt like I did in a light twin engine plane on single engine, that I was going down, just where was I going to be forced to land. There was no where good, hangars, trees, houses, too small of back yards ( I am good but not THAT good ), city streets with power wires and traffic What if that was when the power died, the engine quit, the fuel pump died, or the ECM went into limp mode ( factory programming still has that mode for mutli failure detection ). My point is that it belongs in aviation, but with proper planning and correct installation. It is NOT as easy as ripping it out of the car/truck, and installing it in the plane as is. A proper electronic fuel injection aviation package must be engineered as a package into the plane. I believe Mark Langford went away from it for this reason, and I know from reading his manual that William Wynne did. It takes alot more know how of the system to package an aviation version properly than just cut and paste. Otherwise, I would already have done it! Colin & Beverly Rainey Apex Lending, Inc. 407-323-6960 (p) 407-557-3260 (f) www.eloan2004cr.com crai...@apexlending.com
KR> Fuel Injection
Netters; RFI has come up with a "cut and paste" EFI system for aviation. They have installed over 400 Subaru EJ-22 engines in their autogyros. In fact, they publish a manual to aid in the task. The problems aren't reliablity. The problems are the weights of the intake manifold and reduction unit. RV
KR> Fuel Injection
RFI has come up with a "cut and paste" EFI system for aviation ++ This closes the gap for me - the only remaining issue between an IO something and a Corvair. After nearly 30 years in this game, it just must be injected. I have searched on RFI without joy - any more info much appreciated - thank you. Steve J Zambia
