KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
Dan, When I read your first post about the tail wheel it was quite clear to me that you were not blaming the tail wheel setup for the accident..and I admire you for not responding in anger to some of the caustic comments. Thanks for getting the tail wheel discussion started. We have not had many good building related discussions lately. Also.is there any possibility that "Old Blue" could be rebuilt for static display? For KR enthusiasts this is an historic airplane. Rich Hartwig Waunakee WI
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
Hi guys and girls; AH HA! Now I think I understand why one or maybe more of the KR group got upset with my first post about the "Tail wheel/rudder interconnection". It seems that they might have took it that I was criticizing the KR tail wheel/rudder design as dangerous, NOT SO! I'm sorry if I left that impression. Many certified planes use the same set-up, so who am I to criticize a time proven design. Perhaps [dangerous] was a poor choice of words but I was having a tough time getting used to the plane and maybe ( I ) was dangerous with it and I was trying to find out why. I also said that I (knew) something was wrong with the plane when maybe I should have said I (thought) something was wrong because I didn't have that kind of trouble in the plane I was taking tail wheel instruction in and my instructor wouldn't ride in the KR so that kind of left me hanging on my own. I was hoping some of you could help me out at the Gathering but of course that didn't work out Now it seems that one or more of the KR group might have thought that I was blaming the tail wheel for my accident, again, NOT SO, I hadn't even touched down yet when the accident occurred. Here's what happened. On approach to the MVN airport I was experiencing heavy turbulence from about 2500 ft. msl on down to the runway, something I was not prepared for because it was not mentioned in my weather briefing, if it had been I would have stayed home and maybe gone Friday instead. As I lined up for the runway it felt like I was being pushed to the right side of the runway even though MVN reported winds of 050 degrees at 11 kts. for runway 5, so I began drifting left to compensate and as I came over the end of the runway at 70 mph (the plane stops flying at just under 60 mph) and was about 2 or 3 feet above of the runway the plane suddenly dropped out from under me, I guess from a change in wind direction and I slammed down hard onto the ground and I remember thinking "OH @%*^ there went the right landing gear". Then the plane bounced back into the air and I tried to keep it from stalling and suddenly I was looking straight at the ground and then nothing but concrete as I slid across the taxiway. Then all I could think of was getting as far away as I could in case the fuel ignited. So the accident had nothing to do with the tail wheel at all and the KR tail wheel setup is as good as can be had anywhere. I was just looking for a possible better way, but it appears there is none unless you build a tri-gear. Now I know there are some in the KR group that have no use at all for X-Plane and that's fine, many others do and enjoy it very much. It helps keep their dream alive while their building. Of all of the simulators that have come and gone, I like X-Plane the best and I've tried most of them. The FAA even certifies an X-Plane version for student instruction. A couple of friends of mine who are or have been commercial pilots have been checked out in muti-million dollar commercial simulators and their comment was that they are very, very good but not perfect and neither is X-Plane. Now I have read several articles on aircraft wheel alignment. Some have recommended slight toe-in (normal), at least one recommended slight toe-out and gave reasons for it. I would guess it comes down to trial and error and what works best for your plane. I set mine at zero, loaded and rolled and hoped for the best. Happy New Year everybody Regards, Myron (Dan) Freeman Indpls, Ind. 46203-3570 Home of the Indy 500, the World's most famous auto race. mfreem...@indy.rr.com ?
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
A simulate we can afford is really not much like flying. The simulators the airlines use are so real they will go from a type rating by simulator to a line check. The line check will be the first time in that type of plane. I know folks that use there desk top simulator to practice IFR and other things and I have had the opportunity to play with a couple of real nice ones and from my experience they are not the same. I believe everyone should have a tailwheel endorsement. You would be surprised how it helps in all planes. --- On Wed, 12/23/09, Myron (Dan) Freeman <mfreem...@indy.rr.com> wrote: From: Myron (Dan) Freeman <mfreem...@indy.rr.com> Subject: RE: KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net> List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 11:34 AM Hi guys and girls; My whole point in bringing up the subject of tail wheel/rudder and wheel alignment was three fold. One was, was it just my lack of time and experience in the plane (probably so) or two, was there a way to make it easier to control, and three, to leave a more searchable title in the KR archives for future reference. By the way, this subject has nothing to do with the accident at all. That was caused by gusting wind. Also, X-Plane is not a perfect simulator, neither is a multi million dollar airline simulator but it is fun and all that I and many others can afford. Now whether it can produce bad habits or not, yes it can if you let it, it's up to you to practice good habits. Have a great Christmas. Regards, Myron (Dan) Freeman Indpls, Ind. 46203-3570 Home of the Indy 500, the World's most famous auto race. mfreem...@indy.rr.com ? ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
Hi guys and girls; My whole point in bringing up the subject of tail wheel/rudder and wheel alignment was three fold. One was, was it just my lack of time and experience in the plane (probably so) or two, was there a way to make it easier to control, and three, to leave a more searchable title in the KR archives for future reference. By the way, this subject has nothing to do with the accident at all. That was caused by gusting wind. Also, X-Plane is not a perfect simulator, neither is a multi million dollar airline simulator but it is fun and all that I and many others can afford. Now whether it can produce bad habits or not, yes it can if you let it, it's up to you to practice good habits. Have a great Christmas. Regards, Myron (Dan) Freeman Indpls, Ind. 46203-3570 Home of the Indy 500, the World's most famous auto race. mfreem...@indy.rr.com ?
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
I believe part of the tow-in tow-out is preference. I found on my KR with a copy of Dans gear in aluminum 0 worked well with me. I have a 47 and 74 Bellanca downstairs and one of the first things I did was to align the wheels for 0. It made a big difference for me. For those thinking about tail wheels. Don't listen to anybody about how hard they are to fly. It is like when you learned to fly a tricycle gear. It was hard at first but after a few landing it becomes natural. About they only thing I really pay attention to when landing is witch way the wind is blowing down the runway. anything over 5 kts I land into the wind when I can. --- On Wed, 12/23/09, Larry Knox <la...@lebanair.com> wrote: From: Larry Knox <la...@lebanair.com> Subject: RE: KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection To: "'KRnet'" <kr...@mylist.net> List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 8:53 AM Thanks, Larry this will work for me. I was going to set mine at 3/16 toe in but will go with dead ahead. In the piper gear we try for 1/4 or better per wheel toe in but that's piper gear. Cessna's we try for a little less but still toe in. The 20 and 20/22 pipers are a little squirlie so we seem to have better luck with a little more. Of course you have to do a gear spring or bend to accomplish this as usually its caused from a ground loop or near so and precision is a little hard to achieve. Again, thank, la...@lebanair.com -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Larry Flesner Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 6:16 AM To: KRnet Subject: RE: KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection At 09:12 PM 12/22/2009, you wrote: >The DC3 and B17 suspensions work directly for and aft and up and down, >therefore their toe in does not change with suspension movement. >Barry Kruyssen +++ That is true and I was using that to make a point. The Diehl gear, in my opinion, has very little fore / aft movement, or at least not enough to be a factor. I think that Mark Langford's and my slightly longer than standard, slightly reinforced, Diehl gear with over 1000 hours of combined flight time would indicate that zero toe-in / toe-out works well. While I don't question your statement "(Just apply your brakes and apply power and see how much they flex, mine move back about 6mm)." , that is not a condition your gear sees on most hard surface takeoffs and landings. Rough sod could cause fore and aft movement but the effect on directional control has less effect with less tire to surface friction. Any roughness causing the gear to flex aft will probably call for immediate and aggressive rudder input to maintain directional control anyway, independent of gear alignment. I think this subject is being over analyzed. Go with what has been flight proven and move along. Zero toe-in / toe-out on the Diehl gear works well and, if I were doing it again, is the setup I would use. Larry Flesner ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
The guy that wrote the insert about his tail wheel problems probably ought to do just that. He may have better luck figuring it out. la...@lebanair.com -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf Of joe.kr2s.buil...@juno.com Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 6:48 AM To: kr...@mylist.net Subject: KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection Larry wrote: >Builders can save themselves a lot of time by not trying to re-invent >the wheel (no pun intended) and copy one of the many proven designs l>ike mine, Langford's, Dan Heath's, or others. >As always, your results may vary. >Larry Flesner And of course you could also copy Horton or Jones' set up where the tail wheel was actually installed on the opposite send of the airframe. Sorry - couldn't resist- Merry Christmas All Joe Horton ___ Weight Loss Program Best Weight Loss Program - Click Here! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=9Q_vcHmEYKip4MvpFQM7CQAAJ1A9mk 8a0luj1TJO2sh3zRLgAAYAAADNAAAEUgA= ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
Thanks, Larry this will work for me. I was going to set mine at 3/16 toe in but will go with dead ahead. In the piper gear we try for 1/4 or better per wheel toe in but that's piper gear. Cessna's we try for a little less but still toe in. The 20 and 20/22 pipers are a little squirlie so we seem to have better luck with a little more. Of course you have to do a gear spring or bend to accomplish this as usually its caused from a ground loop or near so and precision is a little hard to achieve. Again, thank, la...@lebanair.com -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Larry Flesner Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 6:16 AM To: KRnet Subject: RE: KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection At 09:12 PM 12/22/2009, you wrote: >The DC3 and B17 suspensions work directly for and aft and up and down, >therefore their toe in does not change with suspension movement. >Barry Kruyssen +++ That is true and I was using that to make a point. The Diehl gear, in my opinion, has very little fore / aft movement, or at least not enough to be a factor. I think that Mark Langford's and my slightly longer than standard, slightly reinforced, Diehl gear with over 1000 hours of combined flight time would indicate that zero toe-in / toe-out works well. While I don't question your statement "(Just apply your brakes and apply power and see how much they flex, mine move back about 6mm)." , that is not a condition your gear sees on most hard surface takeoffs and landings. Rough sod could cause fore and aft movement but the effect on directional control has less effect with less tire to surface friction. Any roughness causing the gear to flex aft will probably call for immediate and aggressive rudder input to maintain directional control anyway, independent of gear alignment. I think this subject is being over analyzed. Go with what has been flight proven and move along. Zero toe-in / toe-out on the Diehl gear works well and, if I were doing it again, is the setup I would use. Larry Flesner ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
Larry wrote: >Builders can save themselves a lot of time by not trying to re-invent >the wheel (no pun intended) and copy one of the many proven designs l>ike mine, Langford's, Dan Heath's, or others. >As always, your results may vary. >Larry Flesner And of course you could also copy Horton or Jones' set up where the tail wheel was actually installed on the opposite send of the airframe. Sorry - couldn't resist- Merry Christmas All Joe Horton ___ Weight Loss Program Best Weight Loss Program - Click Here! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=9Q_vcHmEYKip4MvpFQM7CQAAJ1A9mk8a0luj1TJO2sh3zRLgAAYAAADNAAAEUgA=
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
At 09:12 PM 12/22/2009, you wrote: >The DC3 and B17 suspensions work directly for and aft and up and down, >therefore their toe in does not change with suspension movement. >Barry Kruyssen +++ That is true and I was using that to make a point. The Diehl gear, in my opinion, has very little fore / aft movement, or at least not enough to be a factor. I think that Mark Langford's and my slightly longer than standard, slightly reinforced, Diehl gear with over 1000 hours of combined flight time would indicate that zero toe-in / toe-out works well. While I don't question your statement "(Just apply your brakes and apply power and see how much they flex, mine move back about 6mm)." , that is not a condition your gear sees on most hard surface takeoffs and landings. Rough sod could cause fore and aft movement but the effect on directional control has less effect with less tire to surface friction. Any roughness causing the gear to flex aft will probably call for immediate and aggressive rudder input to maintain directional control anyway, independent of gear alignment. I think this subject is being over analyzed. Go with what has been flight proven and move along. Zero toe-in / toe-out on the Diehl gear works well and, if I were doing it again, is the setup I would use. Larry Flesner
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
Sure, http://krbuilder.org/MakingTailWheelSpring/index.html Actually, that is on the first spring which was not stiff enough. I'll get another pic today, and also get one showing the model number. It is under "Tailwheel Spring" on the dropdown menu. See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics See you at the 2010 - KR Gathering in Richmond, Ky - I39 There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for Flying has begun. Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Myron (Dan) Freeman Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 5:36 PM To: KRnet Subject: KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection Do you have any pictures on your web site or a link to the Aviation Products web site? I did a search but didn't find it.
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
It is also very difficult to measure because it varies with weight and tail attitude. Rolling the wheels along forwards on concrete with toe in leads to the legs being pulled in which also alters it. It really needs to be done consistently on a flat plate on ball bearings to remove all friction between tyre and concrete. John Martindale 29 Jane Circuit Toormina NSW 2452 AUSTRALIA ph: 61 2 6658 4767 (H) mob: 0403 432179 email: john_martind...@bigpond.com -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Barry Kruyssen Sent: Wednesday, 23 December 2009 2:13 PM To: 'KRnet' Subject: RE: KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection Zero toe in and zero camber are the what we are aiming for. But our toe in changes with the forward movement because of our suspension design. snip
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
I think they only have a Ph/Fax number 805-646-6042 la...@lebanair.com -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Myron (Dan) Freeman Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:36 PM To: KRnet Subject: KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection [quote] Of course, I like the breakaway that I have now, from Aviation Products, much better than any other that I have ever had. Dan Heath Hi Dan; Do you have any pictures on your web site or a link to the Aviation Products web site? I did a search but didn't find it. Regards, Myron (Dan) Freeman Indpls, Ind. 46203-3570 Home of the Indy 500, the World's most famous auto race. mfreem...@indy.rr.com ? ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
Maybe not an expert but expert info. 1/4 in per wheel is probably minimum depending on the length and spring of you gear. Works for us on the hornet, longer gear we use a little more, I'm sure you will get the real low down from a real professional shortly it seems this net has a very valuable asset in it field of professionals. la...@lebanair.com -Original Message- From: krnet-bounces+larry=lebanair@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces+larry=lebanair@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Barry Kruyssen Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:14 PM To: 'KRnet' Subject: RE: KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection Hi Dan With regards to your wheel alignment. Never, ever should you have toe out. TOE OUT IS BAD. Let me explain (from what I know), a small amount of toe in is required as when the vehicle is moving forward, any movement (give, spring) in the suspension (and steering on cars) will result in the wheels pivoting backwards (every so slightly) and thus the wheels will end up parallel which is where we want them. Now with toe out you will find that the vehicle will veer (dive) left or right and when you correct it, it will over correct. In cars (where I have most of my limited experience in wheel aligning) toe out makes it hard to drive a car straight on very smooth flat road, the car keeps wanting to wander. Having a toe in of zero will most likely result in toe out when the vehicle is moving forwards. Too much toe in will scrub the tyres causing unnecessary wear. For more detail see may email in the archive http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp dated 13 Feb 2008 and from k...@bigpond.com. My one cents worth (down from 2 cents due to the recession). As per normal, your results may differ and I'm no expert. Regards Barry Kruyssen k...@bigpond.com http://athertonairport.com.au/kr2 RAA registered 19-3873 Australia -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Myron (Dan) Freeman Sent: Wednesday, 23 December 2009 7:17 AM To: KRnet Subject: KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection I encountered problems during takeoff and landing with the plane wanting to drift left even with no crosswind and after checking the wheel alignment I discovered that the wheels were misaligned to the left by several inches (measured at a 10 foot distance) and were toed-in, this I am told is not good, if anything they should be toed-out slightly. Anyway, after correcting the wheel alignment the plane taxied straight and true but after several harrowing takeoffs and landings in mild crosswind conditions I knew that something else was wrong with it. ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
Did I miss something. This seems like a lot of commotion about a tail wheel when Aviation Products Inc. 114 Bryant St. Ojai, CA 93023 Ph 805-646-6042 makes a wonderful 4 or 6 in single or double fork full steerable, castering tail wheel assembly. They have medium hard solid rubber tires that sound and feel like a tube tire when taxiing or on the runway and have an amazing lifespan. They work better than any certified Mall tail wheel and as well as the Scott on my Stinson's and our Cessna's. You just can't go wrong. $235 and $255 complete without the springs and chains. Works of the rudder horn and with the 6 in tire on N68KR she looks like a single arm Mall tail wheel with a bush wheel tire. la...@lebanair.com Tell them we had you call. -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Myron (Dan) Freeman Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 1:17 PM To: KRnet Subject: KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection Hi guys and girls; Before the unfortunate accident with Ol' Blue I made the comment that every time I thought that I had everything fixed I always seemed to find something else to fix or change on the plane. One of the things that I hadn't got around to was the tail wheel/rudder interconnection. I knew It wasn't right but I wasn't sure how to fix it. I did a search on the KR net and found 500 or more references to tail wheel, most of which didn't concern my question but with so many, I could have missed it. Anyway, before I purchased Ol' Blue I did a walk around and discovered that the rudder seemed to be disconnected from the tail wheel and the rudder peddles as well. I also noticed that when sitting in the pilot seat and working the rudder peddles that the rudder did not move but the tail wheel did, which helped explain why the previous owner used the brakes to keep the plane straight during takeoff and landing, something that my instructor told me never to do, your instructor may differ. So I knew something was not right and that I would have to do something about it after the purchase. Well it was a simple fix, the tail wheel springs were drawn too tight and the rudder cables were limp so I added extensions and that took care of that The rudder and tail wheel worked together in unison. I encountered problems during takeoff and landing with the plane wanting to drift left even with no crosswind and after checking the wheel alignment I discovered that the wheels were misaligned to the left by several inches (measured at a 10 foot distance) and were toed-in, this I am told is not good, if anything they should be toed-out slightly. Anyway, after correcting the wheel alignment the plane taxied straight and true but after several harrowing takeoffs and landings in mild crosswind conditions I knew that something else was wrong with it. I have had a lot of time to think through the problem since the accident and I noted that I had the same problem with the real plane as I did with my X-Plane model. The conclusion was that when taking off or landing, until the tail wheel leaves the ground, it is steering the plane down the runway for the most part and if you have a crosswind you need to use rudder to counteract the crosswind, but when you do, the tail wheel also turns and steers you sideways which can result in a dangerous condition. So what to do about it? X-Plane continues to evolve and new features are added all the time and recently a fully controllable tail wheel has been added, that is you can set it up to behave anyway you want it to from full castering to locked straight for takeoff or anything in between. So I said let the experimenting begin and see what works best especially in a crosswind. Using X-plane is much safer and quicker than using a test plane like Ol' Blue. Now I already know how a tail dragger reacts when the tail wheel and rudder are linked together with no slack, I considered it dangerous in a crosswind on pavement, grass is more forgiving. I've tried a full castoring tail wheel in X-Plane and for me I thought it was dangerous also. A tail wheel that is fixed straight ahead is too hard to maneuver on taxiways so that just leaves a castoring/lockable tail wheel or a steerable/lockable tail wheel I believe, unless I've forgotten something. So I decided to use X-Plane to see which method worked the best and safest. With X-Plane I can set the tail wheel to lock straight ahead by pulling any up elevator input during takeoff or landing. In the real plane you would have to lock it manually with a pull cable. But having flown my KR-2 model in X-plane for several hundred hours now, I find it much easier to land and takeoff in crosswinds with a locked tail wheel when on pavement, grass as I said is more forgiving even in X-Plane. I don't know if there is anyone who is using a castering/locking tail wheel on a KR but if there is I would like very much to hear their real world input on this subject as w
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
Zero toe in and zero camber are the what we are aiming for. But our toe in changes with the forward movement because of our suspension design. Our legs are springs which stick out sidewards from and down and therefore MUST flex in ALL directions, though for and aft should be very minimal because of its shape. (Just apply your brakes and apply power and see how much they flex, mine move back about 6mm). The DC3 and B17 suspensions work directly for and aft and up and down, therefore their toe in does not change with suspension movement. Their suspension is nothing like the average KR2 (apples and oranges :-). Again my one cents worth. Merry Christmas All Regards Barry Kruyssen k...@bigpond.com http://athertonairport.com.au/kr2 RAA registered 19-3873 Australia -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Larry Flesner Sent: Wednesday, 23 December 2009 10:53 AM To: KRnet Subject: RE: KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection > TOE OUT IS BAD. Hi Barry; I come from an automotive background and > I felt the same way until I read an article that claimed that > toe-out was better, go figure, and now I cannot remember were I > read that but I'm still looking mfreeman ++ Assuming no fore and aft flex in the gear, I want my wheels trying to roll in the same direction as the airplane is moving. Anyone know what toe-in / toe-out the gear on a DC3 or B17 are set to. I'm guessing it's zero toe-in / toe-out. :-) How many years has the DC 3 been flying, 70 years or so? Larry Flesner
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
The Aviation Products tailwheel is shown at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/misc/05120360m.jpg. This is not really a proper installation because vertical axis of rotation is too far inclined. It should be more like 5-15 degrees, and what I have is about 30 degrees. These tailwheels come in about three different angles, so my advice would be to fit a tailwheel spring first, make careful meauresments, and order the one you need. I've been reluctant to "fix" it because that would put the tailwheel down further, making my landing speed even higher due to the reduced angle before the tailwheel touches down. The yellow tailspring is not the original, but one that Larry Flesner sent me that I believe he got from a junk yard. It's spring steel, and I believe it's 5/16" thick, but it was still too springy with my rough tailwheel first landings that I do occasionally while trying to get the airplane into my short runway. The 1/8" thick 4130 spring on top is a sort of limiting stiffener which at least prevents the tailwheel from hitting the rudder, which is what it did before it was installed. Also note that there's a quarter inch piece of rubber between the top spring and the tailwheel block, placed there to reduce noise transmission from the tailwheel while taxiing. Sorry I didn't bother to clean this up before I took the photo, but was answering the same question for somebody a few months ago and snapped this to send to them. This is what my tailwheel looks like after over 2000 hard landings. One other thing to notice about this is the low angle between the rudder and tailwheel cables, as Larry was mentioning. I have no springs, just a direct connection made inside the fuselage, with turnbuckles so that the tailwheel can be perfectly aligned with the rudder. There is slight slack on the tailwheel, and the "spring" is a miniature bungee cord pulling the two opposite tailwheel cables together to keep them from rattling due to wind forces on the cables outside. There's more on my main gear and alignment at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kgear.html . This gear setup has served me well, and like Larry, I can't imagine how it could handle any better. Troy Petteway, who's flown a lot of KRs, declared mine to be the best ground handling KR he'd ever taxied. He's also owned and flown a LOT of more traditional tailwheel planes, and says in general that the KR has better ground handling than anything out there. If setup up properly, KR ground handling is nothing to fear. I've never "flown" X-plane, but my guess would be it'd be a great place to pick up bad habits that have no relation to flying the real thing... Mark Langford N56ML "at" hiwaay.net website at http://www.N56ML.com
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
I like this group and most of the posts on this site. But lets call BULLSHIT BULLSHIT. Dan did you get your tailwheel endorsement from your instructor? From what I have read on the net about your accident it had nothing to do with your tail wheel/ rudder control. But a gust of wind. If you think about it there were several hundred hours on that plane with no other issues. It is sad that you choose to put your thoughts about the accident on this net. IT PISSES ME OFF THAT YOU THINK THAT THERE WAS A PROBLEM WITH THE TAILWHEEL/ RUDDER WHEN YOU DID NOT HAVE MORE THAN 4 TAKE OFF AND LANDINGS IN THAT PLANE PRIOR TO GOING TO THE GATHING. YOU NOW CHOOSE TO FREAK OUT ALL OTHER PILOTS ABOUT THE TAILWHEEL CONTROL, AND ACCORDING TO ALL THE REPORTS ABOUT THE ACCIDENT IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACCIDENT. I RECALL AN E-MAIL ABOUT THE FIRST FLIGHT OR TWO THAT YOU HAD IN THAT PLANE, THAT ENDED UP IN A REPAIR. I am not picking on Dan in this E-mail, but I was told that I needed to change my retracts when I purchased my plane. I have landed on a GRASS strip, a GRAVEL strip and off taxied off the runway at OSHKOSH and didn't get stuck or have the gear colapse. If you want to fly a KR1 or a KR2 or a KR2S, build it, fly it and have fun. I did get my tailwheel endorsement prior to getting in my plane. I did not have any KR time prior to getting into my plane. My first flight/landing ended up 180 degrees to take off and going under telephone/cable wires. ( I can give the full story at the camp fire) but the bottom line is that it was not meant for this web site. With your post, your thoughts about your flight, all that will influence what others will think about the plans of the airplane. There is nothing wrong with the KR or the plans. I feel your comments are unwarranted on this site right now. When you have more time in a KR and have an Educated opinion then you should share it, and post your proven changes to the KR plan as well. Lee Van Dyke flying 'Snakebite' over 300 hrs N420LV > Before the unfortunate accident with Ol' Blue I made the comment that > every > time I thought that I had everything fixed I always seemed to find > something > else to fix or change on the plane. > > One of the things that I hadn't got around to was the tail wheel/rudder > interconnection. I knew It wasn't right but I wasn't sure how to fix it.
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
> TOE OUT IS BAD. Hi Barry; I come from an automotive background and > I felt the same way until I read an article that claimed that > toe-out was better, go figure, and now I cannot remember were I > read that but I'm still looking mfreeman ++ Assuming no fore and aft flex in the gear, I want my wheels trying to roll in the same direction as the airplane is moving. Anyone know what toe-in / toe-out the gear on a DC3 or B17 are set to. I'm guessing it's zero toe-in / toe-out. :-) How many years has the DC 3 been flying, 70 years or so? Larry Flesner
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
[quote] Never, ever should you have toe out. TOE OUT IS BAD. Hi Barry; I come from an automotive background and I felt the same way until I read an article that claimed that toe-out was better, go figure, and now I cannot remember were I read that but I'm still looking. It claimed that it would forestall a ground loop. If I find it I'll post it here so you can see their reasoning. Anyway I set Ol' Blue at a slight bit of toe-in because I didn't believe the article. Regards, Myron (Dan) Freeman Indpls, Ind. 46203-3570 Home of the Indy 500, the World's most famous auto race. mfreem...@indy.rr.com ?
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
> I don't have any >close up photos. In the photo at >http://mysite.verizon.net/flesner/lf103.jpg you can see it is a very >standard installation. >Larry Flesner >+++ I forgot to mention the one thing I did differently then most builders do. I attached the tail wheel cable to the rudder cable inside the fuselage and they exit the fuselage through different fair leads. I did this so the "pull angle" of the tail wheel cable is in line with the rudder cable and does not pull the rudder cable at an angle when rudder pressure is applied. Most set ups have the cables connected outside the fuselage and, with the tail wheel on the ground and full rudder peddle deflection, you could be stressing your rudder stop if it is located at the rudder and not on the peddles themselves. Any side loads on my tail wheel, when not running in line with the aircraft, are transferred in a straight line to my peddles and not pulling the rudder cable at an angle causing additional rudder deflection. Clear as mud, right?? Larry Flesner
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
I don't think Aviation Products has a web site. At least I couldn't find it. There info is Aviation Products Inc. (114 Bryant St. Ojai, CA 93023) 805-646-6042. They have several models available. You will want the lightest model which is a 4 inch wheel on a single fork. You will have to determine if you want a unit to fit a flat tail spring or a rod and what the mount angle will be. The unit I have is steerable through 30 degrees and then goes full swivel. I personally think it is the best unit available on the market for the KR. I use springs on my tail wheel hookup but I think Langford goes with cables only. It will work either way. I recall seeing photos of their available models with the spec's somewhere but I can't find them on the net. As for toe-in, toe-out, I don't think the Diehl gear has much flex fore and aft so I'd recommend going zero toe-in, toe-out. Even with my 30 inch legs I have the wheels set at zero and it handles on the ground, takeoff and landing, as well as any tricycle gear. I get zero uneven wear on the tires. I think it is the ideal setup. On the interconnect, the rudder cables should be either spring loaded at the peddles or a closed loop system. I went with the springs and it works well. You will want your tail wheel cable to be just a wee bit slack so they allow the rudder cables to always be tight. With this setup, any rudder input you need on takeoff / landing is applied equally to the tail wheel and the rudder. With the wheel on the ground, it will be the controlling factor. When it lifts off the ground, or before it settles on landing, you already have the correct input you need. I can tell very little difference in the peddle movement needed for correction whether it is the tail wheel controlling or the rudder. I'm not sure you could properly simulate in on X-Plane or other simulators as it will vary by the exact physical setup on each KR, ie. rudder size, tail wheel cable slack, fuselage length (rudder power), etc. Builders can save themselves a lot of time by not trying to re-invent the wheel (no pun intended) and copy one of the many proven designs like mine, Langford's, Dan Heath's, or others. I don't have any close up photos. In the photo at http://mysite.verizon.net/flesner/lf103.jpg you can see it is a very standard installation. As always, your results may vary. Larry Flesner
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
[quote] Of course, I like the breakaway that I have now, from Aviation Products, much better than any other that I have ever had. Dan Heath Hi Dan; Do you have any pictures on your web site or a link to the Aviation Products web site? I did a search but didn't find it. Regards, Myron (Dan) Freeman Indpls, Ind. 46203-3570 Home of the Indy 500, the World's most famous auto race. mfreem...@indy.rr.com ?
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
Hi Dan With regards to your wheel alignment. Never, ever should you have toe out. TOE OUT IS BAD. Let me explain (from what I know), a small amount of toe in is required as when the vehicle is moving forward, any movement (give, spring) in the suspension (and steering on cars) will result in the wheels pivoting backwards (every so slightly) and thus the wheels will end up parallel which is where we want them. Now with toe out you will find that the vehicle will veer (dive) left or right and when you correct it, it will over correct. In cars (where I have most of my limited experience in wheel aligning) toe out makes it hard to drive a car straight on very smooth flat road, the car keeps wanting to wander. Having a toe in of zero will most likely result in toe out when the vehicle is moving forwards. Too much toe in will scrub the tyres causing unnecessary wear. For more detail see may email in the archive http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp dated 13 Feb 2008 and from k...@bigpond.com. My one cents worth (down from 2 cents due to the recession). As per normal, your results may differ and I'm no expert. Regards Barry Kruyssen k...@bigpond.com http://athertonairport.com.au/kr2 RAA registered 19-3873 Australia -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Myron (Dan) Freeman Sent: Wednesday, 23 December 2009 7:17 AM To: KRnet Subject: KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection I encountered problems during takeoff and landing with the plane wanting to drift left even with no crosswind and after checking the wheel alignment I discovered that the wheels were misaligned to the left by several inches (measured at a 10 foot distance) and were toed-in, this I am told is not good, if anything they should be toed-out slightly. Anyway, after correcting the wheel alignment the plane taxied straight and true but after several harrowing takeoffs and landings in mild crosswind conditions I knew that something else was wrong with it.
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
Merry Christmas to you also Dan, and that is good news on your recovery. I have had the plans type and the breakaway tail wheel, both steerable, and have had no issues with either. Of course, I like the breakaway that I have now, from Aviation Products, much better than any other that I have ever had. I think Larry and Mark L. both use this one. When the tail wheel is on the ground, the plane goes where I point it, and has with all the different ones that I have used. Before I had the breakaway, I used expansion springs to the wheel, but with the breakaway, I have it connected directly. See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics See you at the 2010 - KR Gathering in Richmond, Ky - I39 There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for Flying has begun. Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC -Original Message- I don't know if there is anyone who is using a castering/locking tail wheel on a KR but if there is I would like very much to hear their real world input on this subject as well as those who use the plans style rudder/tail wheel interconnection method. Your crosswind takeoff/landing technique would be very informative to the rest of us.
KR> Tail wheel/rudder interconnection
Hi guys and girls; Before the unfortunate accident with Ol' Blue I made the comment that every time I thought that I had everything fixed I always seemed to find something else to fix or change on the plane. One of the things that I hadn't got around to was the tail wheel/rudder interconnection. I knew It wasn't right but I wasn't sure how to fix it. I did a search on the KR net and found 500 or more references to tail wheel, most of which didn't concern my question but with so many, I could have missed it. Anyway, before I purchased Ol' Blue I did a walk around and discovered that the rudder seemed to be disconnected from the tail wheel and the rudder peddles as well. I also noticed that when sitting in the pilot seat and working the rudder peddles that the rudder did not move but the tail wheel did, which helped explain why the previous owner used the brakes to keep the plane straight during takeoff and landing, something that my instructor told me never to do, your instructor may differ. So I knew something was not right and that I would have to do something about it after the purchase. Well it was a simple fix, the tail wheel springs were drawn too tight and the rudder cables were limp so I added extensions and that took care of that The rudder and tail wheel worked together in unison. I encountered problems during takeoff and landing with the plane wanting to drift left even with no crosswind and after checking the wheel alignment I discovered that the wheels were misaligned to the left by several inches (measured at a 10 foot distance) and were toed-in, this I am told is not good, if anything they should be toed-out slightly. Anyway, after correcting the wheel alignment the plane taxied straight and true but after several harrowing takeoffs and landings in mild crosswind conditions I knew that something else was wrong with it. I have had a lot of time to think through the problem since the accident and I noted that I had the same problem with the real plane as I did with my X-Plane model. The conclusion was that when taking off or landing, until the tail wheel leaves the ground, it is steering the plane down the runway for the most part and if you have a crosswind you need to use rudder to counteract the crosswind, but when you do, the tail wheel also turns and steers you sideways which can result in a dangerous condition. So what to do about it? X-Plane continues to evolve and new features are added all the time and recently a fully controllable tail wheel has been added, that is you can set it up to behave anyway you want it to from full castering to locked straight for takeoff or anything in between. So I said let the experimenting begin and see what works best especially in a crosswind. Using X-plane is much safer and quicker than using a test plane like Ol' Blue. Now I already know how a tail dragger reacts when the tail wheel and rudder are linked together with no slack, I considered it dangerous in a crosswind on pavement, grass is more forgiving. I've tried a full castoring tail wheel in X-Plane and for me I thought it was dangerous also. A tail wheel that is fixed straight ahead is too hard to maneuver on taxiways so that just leaves a castoring/lockable tail wheel or a steerable/lockable tail wheel I believe, unless I've forgotten something. So I decided to use X-Plane to see which method worked the best and safest. With X-Plane I can set the tail wheel to lock straight ahead by pulling any up elevator input during takeoff or landing. In the real plane you would have to lock it manually with a pull cable. But having flown my KR-2 model in X-plane for several hundred hours now, I find it much easier to land and takeoff in crosswinds with a locked tail wheel when on pavement, grass as I said is more forgiving even in X-Plane. I don't know if there is anyone who is using a castering/locking tail wheel on a KR but if there is I would like very much to hear their real world input on this subject as well as those who use the plans style rudder/tail wheel interconnection method. Your crosswind takeoff/landing technique would be very informative to the rest of us. Here is a link to some who have had experience with it. http://www.mombu com/aviation/aviators/t-advice-on-flying-pitts-with-haigh-locking-tailwheel-1 68451.html I could only find two brands of locking tail wheels, the Raven and the Haigh but I'm sure some enterprising individual could design and build one more appropriate for a KR and a whole lot cheaper and share the design with the KR group if it was worth while. Also, I have two X-Plane, version 9.31, KR-2 models available with this new feature for anyone who wants to try them, or I can just send them to the several dozen individuals who are already using the older models. Oh, and the doctor said I can drive again and start walking on my left foot, praise the Lord. Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year everybody. Regards, Myron (Dan) Freeman