Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Rafael Belmonte]

OpenSuse uses Firefox in KDE, LinuxMint uses Firefox in KDE, Firefox is a
better option even if it is not completely well integrated with KDE.
You always say that we cannot use Firefox KDE integration patches even if
we sync packages from the Blue Shell Team PPA. Well I think than I and some
other people don't completely understand the problem, overall when Kubuntu
used to ship Firefox with those patches in previous releases. Is it a
matter of manpower to maintain the patches? in this case, if we use the
Blue Shell Team PPA efforts, is it still/really a problem? Is it a matter
of legal issues by distributing Firefox patched? if this is the case, have
you seen that Firefox is distribuyed with a lot of patches in Ubuntu and
all other GNU/Linux distributions, what makes us different to can't do it?

2013/2/4 James Cain 

>
> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 4:21 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote:
>
>> On Monday, February 04, 2013 04:08:26 PM James Cain wrote:
>> > I'll circle back to a comment above and if forced to choose one default,
>> > I'd vote for Firefox with the Firefox Blue Shell PPA enabled by default.
>> > Either way, it is how I personally set up new users in Kubuntu and will
>> > continue to do so.
>>
>> That's not something we can do.
>>
>> Scott K
>
>
> I understand, Scott. In my (admittedly naive reasoning), if we can package
> Kubuntu versions of Ubuntu packages, i.e. kubuntu-restricted-extras and
> apturl-kde, why can't we make the KDE-friendly modifications made by the
> Blue Shell PPA a requirement for Firefox in Kubuntu? I'm guessing that it
> could only be included officially if there's a Kubuntu developer willing to
> commit to maintain it, and move it to an official Kubuntu PPA? Since Blue
> Shell devs are also Kubuntu Devs (AFAIK) is this really an issue?
>
> I don't want to totally bikeshed this thread, so I'll drop out of the
> discussion after this post. At the end of the day, if rekonq isn't up to
> snuff as a viable replacement for Firefox/Chrome, then it shouldn't be the
> default. Kubuntu is the only Community flavor of Ubuntu that ships
> upstream's browser by default. There are GTK-based browsers out there, but
> they are not included by default elsewhere. Having rekonq as the default
> browser when every other official *buntu variant uses Firefox or Chromium
> will be a turn-off for at least a certain percentage of anyone trying out
> Kubuntu for the first time. Anything that could provide a "WTF" moment to a
> new user should be eliminated.
>
> Thanks for listening :)
>
> --
> James Cain
>
>
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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[James Cain]

On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 4:21 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote:

> On Monday, February 04, 2013 04:08:26 PM James Cain wrote:
> > I'll circle back to a comment above and if forced to choose one default,
> > I'd vote for Firefox with the Firefox Blue Shell PPA enabled by default.
> > Either way, it is how I personally set up new users in Kubuntu and will
> > continue to do so.
>
> That's not something we can do.
>
> Scott K


I understand, Scott. In my (admittedly naive reasoning), if we can package
Kubuntu versions of Ubuntu packages, i.e. kubuntu-restricted-extras and
apturl-kde, why can't we make the KDE-friendly modifications made by the
Blue Shell PPA a requirement for Firefox in Kubuntu? I'm guessing that it
could only be included officially if there's a Kubuntu developer willing to
commit to maintain it, and move it to an official Kubuntu PPA? Since Blue
Shell devs are also Kubuntu Devs (AFAIK) is this really an issue?

I don't want to totally bikeshed this thread, so I'll drop out of the
discussion after this post. At the end of the day, if rekonq isn't up to
snuff as a viable replacement for Firefox/Chrome, then it shouldn't be the
default. Kubuntu is the only Community flavor of Ubuntu that ships
upstream's browser by default. There are GTK-based browsers out there, but
they are not included by default elsewhere. Having rekonq as the default
browser when every other official *buntu variant uses Firefox or Chromium
will be a turn-off for at least a certain percentage of anyone trying out
Kubuntu for the first time. Anything that could provide a "WTF" moment to a
new user should be eliminated.

Thanks for listening :)

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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Scott Kitterman]

On Monday, February 04, 2013 04:08:26 PM James Cain wrote:
> I'll circle back to a comment above and if forced to choose one default,
> I'd vote for Firefox with the Firefox Blue Shell PPA enabled by default.
> Either way, it is how I personally set up new users in Kubuntu and will
> continue to do so.

That's not something we can do.

Scott K

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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[James Cain]

On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 3:03 AM, Rick Timmis wrote:

> I believe we should look to keep things simple and unified. Kubuntu has
> set out its stall as a default KDE experience, it should stick with that.
>
> encouraging more users to "Try Out" Rekonq, grows the users and testing
> community, and provides the potential for greater feedback, and increased
> development for the upstream project. This is true for the whole KDE
> package set.
>

I completely agree with this philosophically but whole-heatedly disagree
with this in reality. I install Kubuntu on PC's at least a few times a
week. The first thing they ask for is "Where's Firefox and/or Chrome". New
users moving to a new OS need all of the familiarity that they can get.
They also are bound to use a few to several extensions that they will not
likely want to part with. In my case, one such extension is LastPass. I
can't use my computer without it.

While I personally like rekonq, and use it daily for certain situations, I
think pragmatism should win out over an unyielding commitment to stay true
to upstream. After all, (K)ubuntu is "Linux for human beings" and exists,
IMHO, as the best way to *"get things done"* while adhering to the
philosophies and ideas of open source.

I'll circle back to a comment above and if forced to choose one default,
I'd vote for Firefox with the Firefox Blue Shell PPA enabled by default.
Either way, it is how I personally set up new users in Kubuntu and will
continue to do so.

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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Rohan Garg]

On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Tres Finocchiaro  wrote:
>> Sure, but downloading a browser on Linux is so much more different
>> than it is on Windows / OS X.
>> My primary aim with opening this discussion was not to decide which
>> browser we should ship on the ISO, but having a user friendly way in
>> which a first time user can install an alternative browser.
>
>
> This is simply not true.  Between the Kubuntu Software Installer for Firefox
> and the pre-packaged .DEB files that Google provides for Chrome, installing
> a browser in Linux has never been easier.

I'll agree with the fact about Google Chrome :)

>
> If you're worried about someone downloading the wrong version, that could be
> said for any installer on any OS.
>
> Downloading may be "different", however I would argue that for ease of use,
> you should ask the Mozilla project to modify their home page to launch the
> apt:// url when the big green Download button us pressed.  This would likely
> need coordination with some Ubuntu cross-reference of OS version to apt url
> that the community could maintain.  Perhaps lower under the green button
> would be an option to install manually.  Unfortunately, since the version
> through apt would be slightly dated, this would also warrant a disclaimer
> above the download button that the version may be out of date.
>

Actually, with the new policies Firefox is regularly updated on all
supported releases of Ubuntu. So a url like apt://firefox will always
install the latest release.

I actually proposed having having apt:// links on kubuntu.org to
popular software like vlc/firefox/chromium etc on IRC. It was shot
down due to security concerns.

> If you want ease of use, make this page (en version linked) -- the page the
> rest of the world uses to install Firefox -- actually install Firefox, not
> download a tarball that's confusing to the users you are trying to
> represent.
>

That page is out of our control. It's something that Mozilla would
have to change on their end.

> -Tres
>
> -Tres
>
> On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 5:05 AM, Volkan Gezer  wrote:
>>
>> En İyi Dileklerimle,
>> Volkan GEZER
>> volkange...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>> 2013/2/1 Nowardev-Team :
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 2013/2/1 Rick Timmis 
>> >>
>> >> My take is as follows
>> >>
>> >> I believe we should look to keep things simple and unified. Kubuntu has
>> >> set out its stall as a default KDE experience, it should stick with
>> >> that.
>> >>
>> >> encouraging more users to "Try Out" Rekonq, grows the users and testing
>> >> community, and provides the potential for greater feedback, and
>> >> increased
>> >> development for the upstream project. This is true for the whole KDE
>> >> package set.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > if you go here http://www.kubuntu.org/ you will read
>> >
>> > Kubuntu, making your PC friendly
>> >
>> >
>> > and if you know what is ubuntu you should understand that ubuntu is NOT
>> > a
>> > distro for testing software
>> > it's linux made simple for end-user. you wanna support rekonq well make
>> > an
>> > icon that will install rekonq instead here we got the opposite.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I do not like the idea, of adding questions to the installer, in fact I
>> >> feel that it would be better to remove questions, ask less, assume
>> >> more.
>> >> Whilst our technically savvy users may not appreciate this, think about
>> >> the
>> >> broader audience.
>> >>
>> >> We're are trying to persuade Sally Smith, who bought her Laptop from a
>> >> local retail store, all fully loaded with all sorts of software. All
>> >> she
>> >> had to do was switch it on and give it a user name and set her
>> >> password.
>> >>
>> >> That's what we're competing with, so we must try to recreate that user
>> >> experience in our own way.
>> >>
>> >> However, you make an excellent point about users not knowing about
>> >> Software Centre, but perhaps this could be better served with some
>> >> explanatory information that is presented as the installer takes care
>> >> of
>> >> business
>> >>
>> >> ATB
>> >>
>> >> Rick Timmis
>> >
>> >
>> > if you do a good installer the first things will be
>> >
>> > * the partition stuff
>> > *software to install
>> >
>>
>> I am also aggree with this.
>> Before there was a saying about choosing between minimal installation
>> or custom installation. When it is custom, can users pick their
>> favourite softwares before installation? For example in openSUSE they
>> allow everything to be chosen before installation (maybe with yast ,
>> but I dont know). So basics program installations can be selected. If
>> user selects these programs,  then these may be added to their
>> Favourite tab in Kickoff.
>>
>> > *keyboard language and user password stuff
>> >
>> > then the computer can do all the installation by itself wihout user
>> > actions
>> >
>> > so adding a question is good , users are not stupid i think a more
>> > question
>> > will not kill them expecially if they want install linux that is not a
>> > ultra
>

Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Tres Finocchiaro]

>
> Sure, but downloading a browser on Linux is so much more different
> than it is on Windows / OS X.
> My primary aim with opening this discussion was not to decide which
> browser we should ship on the ISO, but having a user friendly way in
> which a first time user can install an alternative browser.


This is simply not true.  Between the Kubuntu Software Installer for
Firefox and the pre-packaged .DEB files that Google provides for Chrome,
installing a browser in Linux has never been easier.

If you're worried about someone downloading the wrong version, that could
be said for any installer on any OS.

Downloading may be "different", however I would argue that for ease of use,
you should ask the Mozilla project to modify their home page to launch the
apt:// url when the big green Download button us pressed.  This would
likely need coordination with some Ubuntu cross-reference of OS version to
apt url that the community could maintain.  Perhaps lower under the green
button would be an option to install manually.  Unfortunately, since the
version through apt would be slightly dated, this would also warrant a
disclaimer above the download button that the version may be out of date.

If you want ease of use, make this
page (en
version linked) -- the page the rest of the world uses to
install Firefox -- actually install Firefox, not download a tarball that's
confusing to the users you are trying to represent.

-Tres

-Tres

On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 5:05 AM, Volkan Gezer  wrote:

> En İyi Dileklerimle,
> Volkan GEZER
> volkange...@gmail.com
>
>
> 2013/2/1 Nowardev-Team :
> >
> >
> >
> > 2013/2/1 Rick Timmis 
> >>
> >> My take is as follows
> >>
> >> I believe we should look to keep things simple and unified. Kubuntu has
> >> set out its stall as a default KDE experience, it should stick with
> that.
> >>
> >> encouraging more users to "Try Out" Rekonq, grows the users and testing
> >> community, and provides the potential for greater feedback, and
> increased
> >> development for the upstream project. This is true for the whole KDE
> >> package set.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > if you go here http://www.kubuntu.org/ you will read
> >
> > Kubuntu, making your PC friendly
> >
> >
> > and if you know what is ubuntu you should understand that ubuntu is NOT a
> > distro for testing software
> > it's linux made simple for end-user. you wanna support rekonq well make
> an
> > icon that will install rekonq instead here we got the opposite.
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> I do not like the idea, of adding questions to the installer, in fact I
> >> feel that it would be better to remove questions, ask less, assume more.
> >> Whilst our technically savvy users may not appreciate this, think about
> >> the
> >> broader audience.
> >>
> >> We're are trying to persuade Sally Smith, who bought her Laptop from a
> >> local retail store, all fully loaded with all sorts of software. All she
> >> had to do was switch it on and give it a user name and set her password.
> >>
> >> That's what we're competing with, so we must try to recreate that user
> >> experience in our own way.
> >>
> >> However, you make an excellent point about users not knowing about
> >> Software Centre, but perhaps this could be better served with some
> >> explanatory information that is presented as the installer takes care of
> >> business
> >>
> >> ATB
> >>
> >> Rick Timmis
> >
> >
> > if you do a good installer the first things will be
> >
> > * the partition stuff
> > *software to install
> >
>
> I am also aggree with this.
> Before there was a saying about choosing between minimal installation
> or custom installation. When it is custom, can users pick their
> favourite softwares before installation? For example in openSUSE they
> allow everything to be chosen before installation (maybe with yast ,
> but I dont know). So basics program installations can be selected. If
> user selects these programs,  then these may be added to their
> Favourite tab in Kickoff.
>
> > *keyboard language and user password stuff
> >
> > then the computer can do all the installation by itself wihout user
> actions
> >
> > so adding a question is good , users are not stupid i think a more
> question
> > will not kill them expecially if they want install linux that is not a
> ultra
> > easy task.
>
> > --
> > kubuntu-devel mailing list
> > kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
> > Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
> >
>
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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Rohan Garg]

Sounds like a great idea (again! :D)

Anyone awesome at HTML? You can find the slideshow sources here :
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubiquity-slideshow/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/html/files/head:/slideshows/kubuntu/slides/

Would be nice to have some mockups for the next release so that we can
switch before UI freeze.


On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 3:08 AM, Scott Kitterman  wrote:
> On Thursday, January 31, 2013 08:36:59 PM Aleix Pol wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Rohan Garg  wrote:
>> > Hi everyone
>> > Since the default browser seems to be a fairly hot topic in Kubuntu
>> > I'd like to propose the following :
>> >
>> > * Keep rekonq as the default browser
>> > * Add a new browser selection page in Ubiquity right after the
>> > "Prepare" page which allows the user to pick one of the the 3
>> > available choices Firefox/Chromium/Rekonq ( rekonq selected by default
>> > )
>> >
>> > Pro's : People don't complain (loudly) about our browser selection
>> >
>> >For people trying out Kubuntu for the first time who know
>> >
>> > nothing about packages and how to install software, it gives them an
>> > easy way to choose a more feature complete browser.
>> >
>> > Con's : Adds another step in the installer
>> >
>> > While some people might argue that users might not be able to choose
>> > one over the other, this will not hold true for most of the users
>> > since we can safely assume that they have used/heard about either one
>> > of the browsers in the past and already have a preference.
>> >
>> > I've also heard some issues being raised about chromium not having a
>> > security cycle in tune with our release cycle, but it seems that
>> > Lubuntu ships Chromium as their default browser.
>> >
>> > I'd like to hear everyone's opinions on this.
>> >
>> > Regards
>> > Rohan Garg
>> >
>> > --
>> > kubuntu-devel mailing list
>> > kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
>> > Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
>> > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
>>
>> Personally I wouldn't do that. If a user is smart enough for wanting
>> another browser, he should be able to go and install it himself.
>>
>> Maybe here the problem is that Kubuntu is not advertising the software
>> centers properly.
>> From my side, if there's anything we can do to improve this situation from
>> Muon, I think it would be a huge step forward, and not only for browsers,
>> but other areas could benefit from such deals. Maybe rekonq can provide a
>> list of alternatives and use muon to install them? Afterall, chromium
>> already suggests you other browsers, IIRC.
>>
>> Additionally, you didn't mention in the Con's that it means to add GTK
>> dependencies, which I'm fine with by the way, but AFAIK right now ubuntu
>> forked the kde-gtk-config package to not need GTK.
>
> I think it would be good to have a slide for "here's how you get more stuff"
> and possibly "Here's how you get a different web browser" in the feature tour
> the runs during the installation.  The content of the slide show hasn't
> changed in awhile and I think this would be a good improvement.
>
> That'd be a way to introduce the idea of package management and our tools for
> getting/updating packaging.
>
> Scott K
>
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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Nowardev-Team]

2013/2/1 Rick Timmis 

> My take is as follows
>
> I believe we should look to keep things simple and unified. Kubuntu has
> set out its stall as a default KDE experience, it should stick with that.
>
> encouraging more users to "Try Out" Rekonq, grows the users and testing
> community, and provides the potential for greater feedback, and increased
> development for the upstream project. This is true for the whole KDE
> package set.
>



if you go here http://www.kubuntu.org/ you will read

Kubuntu, making your PC friendly

and if you know what is ubuntu you should understand that ubuntu is NOT a
distro for testing software
it's linux made simple for end-user. you wanna support rekonq well make an
icon that will install rekonq instead here we got the opposite.




> I do not like the idea, of adding questions to the installer, in fact I
> feel that it would be better to remove questions, ask less, assume more.
> Whilst our technically savvy users may not appreciate this, think about the
> broader audience.
>
> We're are trying to persuade Sally Smith, who bought her Laptop from a
> local retail store, all fully loaded with all sorts of software. All she
> had to do was switch it on and give it a user name and set her password.
>
> That's what we're competing with, so we must try to recreate that user
> experience in our own way.
>
> However, you make an excellent point about users not knowing about
> Software Centre, but perhaps this could be better served with some
> explanatory information that is presented as the installer takes care of
> business
>
> ATB
>
> Rick Timmis
>

if you do a good installer the first things will be

* the partition stuff
*software to install

*keyboard language and user password stuff

then the computer can do all the installation by itself wihout user actions

so adding a question is good , users are not stupid i think a more question
will not kill them expecially if they want install linux that is not a
ultra easy task.
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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Rohan Garg]

> Personally I wouldn't do that. If a user is smart enough for wanting another
> browser, he should be able to go and install it himself.
>
> Maybe here the problem is that Kubuntu is not advertising the software
> centers properly.
> From my side, if there's anything we can do to improve this situation from
> Muon, I think it would be a huge step forward, and not only for browsers,
> but other areas could benefit from such deals. Maybe rekonq can provide a
> list of alternatives and use muon to install them? Afterall, chromium
> already suggests you other browsers, IIRC.
>

I am not sure whether or not chromium suggests other browsers, but I
agree that Muon itself needs more exposure, which is why we should :

a) Put it as one of the apps under Favorites
b) Update the feature tour on kubuntu.org to showcase Muon as the
preferred way to install things.

> Additionally, you didn't mention in the Con's that it means to add GTK
> dependencies, which I'm fine with by the way, but AFAIK right now ubuntu
> forked the kde-gtk-config package to not need GTK.
>

You seem to have misunderstood me, I'll repeat again, I was not
proposing to put Firefox on the Live Media itself. Instead, I was
proposing to have a page in the installer that allows a user to choose
betweek Firefox/Chromium/Rekonq, with Firefox/Chromium being
downloaded during the install phase.

> Aleix
>
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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Rick Timmis]

My take is as follows

I believe we should look to keep things simple and unified. Kubuntu has
set out its stall as a default KDE experience, it should stick with that.

encouraging more users to "Try Out" Rekonq, grows the users and testing
community, and provides the potential for greater feedback, and increased
development for the upstream project. This is true for the whole KDE
package set.

I do not like the idea, of adding questions to the installer, in fact I
feel that it would be better to remove questions, ask less, assume more.
Whilst our technically savvy users may not appreciate this, think about the
broader audience.

We're are trying to persuade Sally Smith, who bought her Laptop from a
local retail store, all fully loaded with all sorts of software. All she
had to do was switch it on and give it a user name and set her password. 

That's what we're competing with, so we must try to recreate that user
experience in our own way.

However, you make an excellent point about users not knowing about
Software Centre, but perhaps this could be better served with some
explanatory information that is presented as the installer takes care of
business

ATB

Rick Timmis

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:37:01 +0530, Rohan Garg 
wrote:
> Hi everyone
> Since the default browser seems to be a fairly hot topic in Kubuntu
> I'd like to propose the following :
> 
> * Keep rekonq as the default browser
> * Add a new browser selection page in Ubiquity right after the
> "Prepare" page which allows the user to pick one of the the 3
> available choices Firefox/Chromium/Rekonq ( rekonq selected by default
> )
> 
> Pro's : People don't complain (loudly) about our browser selection
>For people trying out Kubuntu for the first time who know
> nothing about packages and how to install software, it gives them an
> easy way to choose a more feature complete browser.
> 
> Con's : Adds another step in the installer
> 
> While some people might argue that users might not be able to choose
> one over the other, this will not hold true for most of the users
> since we can safely assume that they have used/heard about either one
> of the browsers in the past and already have a preference.
> 
> I've also heard some issues being raised about chromium not having a
> security cycle in tune with our release cycle, but it seems that
> Lubuntu ships Chromium as their default browser.
> 
> I'd like to hear everyone's opinions on this.
> 
> Regards
> Rohan Garg

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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Sam Sarette]

Have you tried http://rekonq.kde.org/ ?
Qt5's QtWebkit?

I'd say they were pretty stellar.


On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 5:56 PM, Nowardev-Team  wrote:

> the problem is not a user can google and install a browser in kubutnu
>
> the problem is why should a kubuntu user do that ?
>
> on ubuntu i am user nobody use 2 browser
> in kubunut i am sure you use them if not you have removed rekonq
>
>
>
> kubuntu should be for human being but actually for browsing is not
>
> tipical ubuntu user
>
> install ubuntu =>get the network => browse the web with firefox
>
> in kubunut
>
> install kubuntu => get the network => where is the browser ? ah this one
> => does it work good ? no ==> install firefox \ chromium
>
>
> so now ask yourself did the kubuntu-dev do a good thing for the end-user ?
>
> the answer for me is NO.
>
>
> 2013/1/31 Sam Sarette 
>
>> I really like scott's idea.
>> Make good use of the 10 minutes to install.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 4:38 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, January 31, 2013 08:36:59 PM Aleix Pol wrote:
>>> > On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Rohan Garg 
>>> wrote:
>>> > > Hi everyone
>>> > > Since the default browser seems to be a fairly hot topic in Kubuntu
>>> > > I'd like to propose the following :
>>> > >
>>> > > * Keep rekonq as the default browser
>>> > > * Add a new browser selection page in Ubiquity right after the
>>> > > "Prepare" page which allows the user to pick one of the the 3
>>> > > available choices Firefox/Chromium/Rekonq ( rekonq selected by
>>> default
>>> > > )
>>> > >
>>> > > Pro's : People don't complain (loudly) about our browser selection
>>> > >
>>> > >For people trying out Kubuntu for the first time who know
>>> > >
>>> > > nothing about packages and how to install software, it gives them an
>>> > > easy way to choose a more feature complete browser.
>>> > >
>>> > > Con's : Adds another step in the installer
>>> > >
>>> > > While some people might argue that users might not be able to choose
>>> > > one over the other, this will not hold true for most of the users
>>> > > since we can safely assume that they have used/heard about either one
>>> > > of the browsers in the past and already have a preference.
>>> > >
>>> > > I've also heard some issues being raised about chromium not having a
>>> > > security cycle in tune with our release cycle, but it seems that
>>> > > Lubuntu ships Chromium as their default browser.
>>> > >
>>> > > I'd like to hear everyone's opinions on this.
>>> > >
>>> > > Regards
>>> > > Rohan Garg
>>> > >
>>> > > --
>>> > > kubuntu-devel mailing list
>>> > > kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
>>> > > Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
>>> > > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
>>> >
>>> > Personally I wouldn't do that. If a user is smart enough for wanting
>>> > another browser, he should be able to go and install it himself.
>>> >
>>> > Maybe here the problem is that Kubuntu is not advertising the software
>>> > centers properly.
>>> > From my side, if there's anything we can do to improve this situation
>>> from
>>> > Muon, I think it would be a huge step forward, and not only for
>>> browsers,
>>> > but other areas could benefit from such deals. Maybe rekonq can
>>> provide a
>>> > list of alternatives and use muon to install them? Afterall, chromium
>>> > already suggests you other browsers, IIRC.
>>> >
>>> > Additionally, you didn't mention in the Con's that it means to add GTK
>>> > dependencies, which I'm fine with by the way, but AFAIK right now
>>> ubuntu
>>> > forked the kde-gtk-config package to not need GTK.
>>>
>>> I think it would be good to have a slide for "here's how you get more
>>> stuff"
>>> and possibly "Here's how you get a different web browser" in the feature
>>> tour
>>> the runs during the installation.  The content of the slide show hasn't
>>> changed in awhile and I think this would be a good improvement.
>>>
>>> That'd be a way to introduce the idea of package management and our
>>> tools for
>>> getting/updating packaging.
>>>
>>> Scott K
>>>
>>> --
>>> kubuntu-devel mailing list
>>> kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
>>> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>>
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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Nowardev-Team]

the problem is not a user can google and install a browser in kubutnu

the problem is why should a kubuntu user do that ?

on ubuntu i am user nobody use 2 browser
in kubunut i am sure you use them if not you have removed rekonq



kubuntu should be for human being but actually for browsing is not

tipical ubuntu user

install ubuntu =>get the network => browse the web with firefox

in kubunut

install kubuntu => get the network => where is the browser ? ah this one =>
does it work good ? no ==> install firefox \ chromium


so now ask yourself did the kubuntu-dev do a good thing for the end-user ?

the answer for me is NO.


2013/1/31 Sam Sarette 

> I really like scott's idea.
> Make good use of the 10 minutes to install.
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 4:38 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, January 31, 2013 08:36:59 PM Aleix Pol wrote:
>> > On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Rohan Garg 
>> wrote:
>> > > Hi everyone
>> > > Since the default browser seems to be a fairly hot topic in Kubuntu
>> > > I'd like to propose the following :
>> > >
>> > > * Keep rekonq as the default browser
>> > > * Add a new browser selection page in Ubiquity right after the
>> > > "Prepare" page which allows the user to pick one of the the 3
>> > > available choices Firefox/Chromium/Rekonq ( rekonq selected by default
>> > > )
>> > >
>> > > Pro's : People don't complain (loudly) about our browser selection
>> > >
>> > >For people trying out Kubuntu for the first time who know
>> > >
>> > > nothing about packages and how to install software, it gives them an
>> > > easy way to choose a more feature complete browser.
>> > >
>> > > Con's : Adds another step in the installer
>> > >
>> > > While some people might argue that users might not be able to choose
>> > > one over the other, this will not hold true for most of the users
>> > > since we can safely assume that they have used/heard about either one
>> > > of the browsers in the past and already have a preference.
>> > >
>> > > I've also heard some issues being raised about chromium not having a
>> > > security cycle in tune with our release cycle, but it seems that
>> > > Lubuntu ships Chromium as their default browser.
>> > >
>> > > I'd like to hear everyone's opinions on this.
>> > >
>> > > Regards
>> > > Rohan Garg
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > kubuntu-devel mailing list
>> > > kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
>> > > Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
>> > > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
>> >
>> > Personally I wouldn't do that. If a user is smart enough for wanting
>> > another browser, he should be able to go and install it himself.
>> >
>> > Maybe here the problem is that Kubuntu is not advertising the software
>> > centers properly.
>> > From my side, if there's anything we can do to improve this situation
>> from
>> > Muon, I think it would be a huge step forward, and not only for
>> browsers,
>> > but other areas could benefit from such deals. Maybe rekonq can provide
>> a
>> > list of alternatives and use muon to install them? Afterall, chromium
>> > already suggests you other browsers, IIRC.
>> >
>> > Additionally, you didn't mention in the Con's that it means to add GTK
>> > dependencies, which I'm fine with by the way, but AFAIK right now ubuntu
>> > forked the kde-gtk-config package to not need GTK.
>>
>> I think it would be good to have a slide for "here's how you get more
>> stuff"
>> and possibly "Here's how you get a different web browser" in the feature
>> tour
>> the runs during the installation.  The content of the slide show hasn't
>> changed in awhile and I think this would be a good improvement.
>>
>> That'd be a way to introduce the idea of package management and our tools
>> for
>> getting/updating packaging.
>>
>> Scott K
>>
>> --
>> kubuntu-devel mailing list
>> kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
>> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
>>
>
>
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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Sam Sarette]

I really like scott's idea.
Make good use of the 10 minutes to install.


On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 4:38 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote:

> On Thursday, January 31, 2013 08:36:59 PM Aleix Pol wrote:
> > On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Rohan Garg 
> wrote:
> > > Hi everyone
> > > Since the default browser seems to be a fairly hot topic in Kubuntu
> > > I'd like to propose the following :
> > >
> > > * Keep rekonq as the default browser
> > > * Add a new browser selection page in Ubiquity right after the
> > > "Prepare" page which allows the user to pick one of the the 3
> > > available choices Firefox/Chromium/Rekonq ( rekonq selected by default
> > > )
> > >
> > > Pro's : People don't complain (loudly) about our browser selection
> > >
> > >For people trying out Kubuntu for the first time who know
> > >
> > > nothing about packages and how to install software, it gives them an
> > > easy way to choose a more feature complete browser.
> > >
> > > Con's : Adds another step in the installer
> > >
> > > While some people might argue that users might not be able to choose
> > > one over the other, this will not hold true for most of the users
> > > since we can safely assume that they have used/heard about either one
> > > of the browsers in the past and already have a preference.
> > >
> > > I've also heard some issues being raised about chromium not having a
> > > security cycle in tune with our release cycle, but it seems that
> > > Lubuntu ships Chromium as their default browser.
> > >
> > > I'd like to hear everyone's opinions on this.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Rohan Garg
> > >
> > > --
> > > kubuntu-devel mailing list
> > > kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
> > > Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> > > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
> >
> > Personally I wouldn't do that. If a user is smart enough for wanting
> > another browser, he should be able to go and install it himself.
> >
> > Maybe here the problem is that Kubuntu is not advertising the software
> > centers properly.
> > From my side, if there's anything we can do to improve this situation
> from
> > Muon, I think it would be a huge step forward, and not only for browsers,
> > but other areas could benefit from such deals. Maybe rekonq can provide a
> > list of alternatives and use muon to install them? Afterall, chromium
> > already suggests you other browsers, IIRC.
> >
> > Additionally, you didn't mention in the Con's that it means to add GTK
> > dependencies, which I'm fine with by the way, but AFAIK right now ubuntu
> > forked the kde-gtk-config package to not need GTK.
>
> I think it would be good to have a slide for "here's how you get more
> stuff"
> and possibly "Here's how you get a different web browser" in the feature
> tour
> the runs during the installation.  The content of the slide show hasn't
> changed in awhile and I think this would be a good improvement.
>
> That'd be a way to introduce the idea of package management and our tools
> for
> getting/updating packaging.
>
> Scott K
>
> --
> kubuntu-devel mailing list
> kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
>
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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Scott Kitterman]

On Thursday, January 31, 2013 08:36:59 PM Aleix Pol wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Rohan Garg  wrote:
> > Hi everyone
> > Since the default browser seems to be a fairly hot topic in Kubuntu
> > I'd like to propose the following :
> > 
> > * Keep rekonq as the default browser
> > * Add a new browser selection page in Ubiquity right after the
> > "Prepare" page which allows the user to pick one of the the 3
> > available choices Firefox/Chromium/Rekonq ( rekonq selected by default
> > )
> > 
> > Pro's : People don't complain (loudly) about our browser selection
> > 
> >For people trying out Kubuntu for the first time who know
> > 
> > nothing about packages and how to install software, it gives them an
> > easy way to choose a more feature complete browser.
> > 
> > Con's : Adds another step in the installer
> > 
> > While some people might argue that users might not be able to choose
> > one over the other, this will not hold true for most of the users
> > since we can safely assume that they have used/heard about either one
> > of the browsers in the past and already have a preference.
> > 
> > I've also heard some issues being raised about chromium not having a
> > security cycle in tune with our release cycle, but it seems that
> > Lubuntu ships Chromium as their default browser.
> > 
> > I'd like to hear everyone's opinions on this.
> > 
> > Regards
> > Rohan Garg
> > 
> > --
> > kubuntu-devel mailing list
> > kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
> > Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
> 
> Personally I wouldn't do that. If a user is smart enough for wanting
> another browser, he should be able to go and install it himself.
> 
> Maybe here the problem is that Kubuntu is not advertising the software
> centers properly.
> From my side, if there's anything we can do to improve this situation from
> Muon, I think it would be a huge step forward, and not only for browsers,
> but other areas could benefit from such deals. Maybe rekonq can provide a
> list of alternatives and use muon to install them? Afterall, chromium
> already suggests you other browsers, IIRC.
> 
> Additionally, you didn't mention in the Con's that it means to add GTK
> dependencies, which I'm fine with by the way, but AFAIK right now ubuntu
> forked the kde-gtk-config package to not need GTK.

I think it would be good to have a slide for "here's how you get more stuff" 
and possibly "Here's how you get a different web browser" in the feature tour 
the runs during the installation.  The content of the slide show hasn't 
changed in awhile and I think this would be a good improvement.  

That'd be a way to introduce the idea of package management and our tools for 
getting/updating packaging.

Scott K

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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Aleix Pol]

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Rohan Garg  wrote:

> Hi everyone
> Since the default browser seems to be a fairly hot topic in Kubuntu
> I'd like to propose the following :
>
> * Keep rekonq as the default browser
> * Add a new browser selection page in Ubiquity right after the
> "Prepare" page which allows the user to pick one of the the 3
> available choices Firefox/Chromium/Rekonq ( rekonq selected by default
> )
>
> Pro's : People don't complain (loudly) about our browser selection
>For people trying out Kubuntu for the first time who know
> nothing about packages and how to install software, it gives them an
> easy way to choose a more feature complete browser.
>
> Con's : Adds another step in the installer
>
> While some people might argue that users might not be able to choose
> one over the other, this will not hold true for most of the users
> since we can safely assume that they have used/heard about either one
> of the browsers in the past and already have a preference.
>
> I've also heard some issues being raised about chromium not having a
> security cycle in tune with our release cycle, but it seems that
> Lubuntu ships Chromium as their default browser.
>
> I'd like to hear everyone's opinions on this.
>
> Regards
> Rohan Garg
>
> --
> kubuntu-devel mailing list
> kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
>

Personally I wouldn't do that. If a user is smart enough for wanting
another browser, he should be able to go and install it himself.

Maybe here the problem is that Kubuntu is not advertising the software
centers properly.
>From my side, if there's anything we can do to improve this situation from
Muon, I think it would be a huge step forward, and not only for browsers,
but other areas could benefit from such deals. Maybe rekonq can provide a
list of alternatives and use muon to install them? Afterall, chromium
already suggests you other browsers, IIRC.

Additionally, you didn't mention in the Con's that it means to add GTK
dependencies, which I'm fine with by the way, but AFAIK right now ubuntu
forked the kde-gtk-config package to not need GTK.

Aleix
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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Clay Weber]

Scott Kitterman  wrote:

>Rohan Garg  wrote:
>
>>Hi everyone
>>Since the default browser seems to be a fairly hot topic in Kubuntu
>>I'd like to propose the following :
>>
>>* Keep rekonq as the default browser
>>* Add a new browser selection page in Ubiquity right after the
>>"Prepare" page which allows the user to pick one of the the 3
>>available choices Firefox/Chromium/Rekonq ( rekonq selected by default
>>)
>>
>>Pro's : People don't complain (loudly) about our browser selection
>>   For people trying out Kubuntu for the first time who know
>>nothing about packages and how to install software, it gives them an
>>easy way to choose a more feature complete browser.
>>
>>Con's : Adds another step in the installer
>>
>>While some people might argue that users might not be able to choose
>>one over the other, this will not hold true for most of the users
>>since we can safely assume that they have used/heard about either one
>>of the browsers in the past and already have a preference.
>>
>>I've also heard some issues being raised about chromium not having a
>>security cycle in tune with our release cycle, but it seems that
>>Lubuntu ships Chromium as their default browser.
>>
>>I'd like to hear everyone's opinions on this.
>
>If we're going to put Firefox on our install media we should just make
>it default.   It's the only browser in the archive with proper security
>support.  In the long run that's a really, really essential feature for
>browsers.
>
>The fact that Lubuntu made a different choice should not sway us a bit.
>
>I believe we should make opinionated choices to give our users a safe,
>functional, KDE experience.  For different applications,  the priority
>of those factors will be different. For a web browser, I think that's
>the correct order.
>
>If Firefox doesn't fit, then we throw the first two out and ship
>rekonq.
>
>Scott K
>
>
>
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I have to agree here. Unless we can have at the minimum working open-with 
support, Firefox is a poor choice to even offer as an option. 

Choosing a rounded, useful selection of software is key to Kubuntu being 
Kubuntu. 

I don't like the idea of having extra choices in the installer, it doesn't fit 
in with my last statement, above and opens the door to more bloat and busyness.
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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Sam Sarette]

On "menu options" I really never liked how it felt to have this firefox
icon I never used in my menu.
An average user isn't going to know how to remove the
"kubuntu-firefox-installer" package if they don't intend to use Firefox.


On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 11:47 AM, Ho Wan Chan  wrote:

> I knew I am a new guy on Kubuntu, but here are my suggestions.
>
> You see, I am also subscribed to Lubuntu's QA list. From what I saw in the
> mailing list, updating Chromium is a difficult thing to do. Also I think
> that since Chromium is not that stable (sort of like Google Chrome
> Dev/Canary channel). I would not choose Chromium.
>
> Firefox is much better. Less bugs, and more stable. Although it's KDE
> support/integration is not well, it is still a strong solution. If not, why
> would Ubuntu/Edubuntu/Xubuntu/Ubuntu Studio be still using it?
>
> One thing that's great about rekonq is that it ensures good KDE
> integration. That is one important factor to be considered.
>
> So here are my suggestions: Keep rekonq as the default browser, but ask if
> they want Firefox or rekonq at installation. We should also provide menu
> items, so if people are installing Kubuntu on top of things like the mini
> ISO, we could let them know they could use Firefox or Chromium.
>
> smartboyhw
> On 2013-2-1 上午12:30, "Rohan Garg"  wrote:
>
>> Sounds like a good idea. Anyone opposed to having the firefox
>> installer in the kickoff?
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 9:18 PM, Scott Kitterman 
>> wrote:
>> > On Thursday, January 31, 2013 08:24:45 PM Rohan Garg wrote:
>> >> > In this case, you still get rekonq if there's no network during
>> install.
>> >>
>> >> Yep, the same way you get a Kubuntu without multimedia codecs without a
>> >> network.
>> >> > I don't see any significant advantage for doing it during the install
>> >> > versus making it easy to do post-install.  Why do you think it's
>> better?
>> >>
>> >> I'm open to suggestions on how to make it super easy for users to
>> >> install another browser post-install. Especially since users migrating
>> >> from Windows/OS X have no concept of 'packages' and even installing
>> >> something like firefox can be daunting task. Personally, I'd expect
>> >> them to go to firefox.com and download the sources instead of
>> >> downloading the binary packages since that's what they're accustomed
>> >> to.
>> >
>> > How about putting the Firefox installer in the 'favorites' so that if
>> someone
>> > can at least click on the K menu they'll see the familiar icon and
>> (hopefully)
>> > click on it?
>> >
>> >> > Also, if we start having application selection during install, what
>> else
>> >> > ends up there?  It's a slippery slope.
>> >>
>> >> True. As always there are tradeoffs to be made here. But if you have a
>> >> look around, people seem to be comfortable with dragon as their video
>> >> player as compared to rekonq as their default browser ( just an
>> >> example ).
>> >
>> > There was a time where Kaffeine versus Dragon was just as controversial.
>> >
>> > Scott K
>> >
>> > --
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>> > kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
>> > Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
>>
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>
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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Sam Sarette]

I'd rather appreciate having the option between Rekonq, Firefox, and
Chromium.

Is there anyway we could benefit from the unity webapps work in firefox?
That'd be the main advantage of using Firefox/Chromium as a new default.
Otherwise, I'm not sure I see the point, especially with the new
Rekonq releases coming up.


On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 11:36 AM, Rohan Garg  wrote:

> Sure, but downloading a browser on Linux is so much more different
> than it is on Windows / OS X.
> My primary aim with opening this discussion was not to decide which
> browser we should ship on the ISO, but having a user friendly way in
> which a first time user can install an alternative browser.
>
> On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 9:55 PM, Tres Finocchiaro
>  wrote:
> > This is a hot topic because the web browser is used so much by so many
> > people that they are passionate about improving the experience.
> >
> > It's been said many times Chromium and Firefox are not going to happen,
> so
> > it may be more worth our time to lay this discussion to rest.
> >
> > We're all accustomed to downloading the web browser of our choice, we've
> > been doing it on all operating systems for years.  I'm not sure why this
> OS
> > is any different.
> >
> > -Tres
> >
> >
> > --
> > - tres.finocchi...@gmail.com
> >
> > --
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> >
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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Ho Wan Chan]

I knew I am a new guy on Kubuntu, but here are my suggestions.

You see, I am also subscribed to Lubuntu's QA list. From what I saw in the
mailing list, updating Chromium is a difficult thing to do. Also I think
that since Chromium is not that stable (sort of like Google Chrome
Dev/Canary channel). I would not choose Chromium.

Firefox is much better. Less bugs, and more stable. Although it's KDE
support/integration is not well, it is still a strong solution. If not, why
would Ubuntu/Edubuntu/Xubuntu/Ubuntu Studio be still using it?

One thing that's great about rekonq is that it ensures good KDE
integration. That is one important factor to be considered.

So here are my suggestions: Keep rekonq as the default browser, but ask if
they want Firefox or rekonq at installation. We should also provide menu
items, so if people are installing Kubuntu on top of things like the mini
ISO, we could let them know they could use Firefox or Chromium.

smartboyhw
On 2013-2-1 上午12:30, "Rohan Garg"  wrote:

> Sounds like a good idea. Anyone opposed to having the firefox
> installer in the kickoff?
>
> On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 9:18 PM, Scott Kitterman 
> wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 31, 2013 08:24:45 PM Rohan Garg wrote:
> >> > In this case, you still get rekonq if there's no network during
> install.
> >>
> >> Yep, the same way you get a Kubuntu without multimedia codecs without a
> >> network.
> >> > I don't see any significant advantage for doing it during the install
> >> > versus making it easy to do post-install.  Why do you think it's
> better?
> >>
> >> I'm open to suggestions on how to make it super easy for users to
> >> install another browser post-install. Especially since users migrating
> >> from Windows/OS X have no concept of 'packages' and even installing
> >> something like firefox can be daunting task. Personally, I'd expect
> >> them to go to firefox.com and download the sources instead of
> >> downloading the binary packages since that's what they're accustomed
> >> to.
> >
> > How about putting the Firefox installer in the 'favorites' so that if
> someone
> > can at least click on the K menu they'll see the familiar icon and
> (hopefully)
> > click on it?
> >
> >> > Also, if we start having application selection during install, what
> else
> >> > ends up there?  It's a slippery slope.
> >>
> >> True. As always there are tradeoffs to be made here. But if you have a
> >> look around, people seem to be comfortable with dragon as their video
> >> player as compared to rekonq as their default browser ( just an
> >> example ).
> >
> > There was a time where Kaffeine versus Dragon was just as controversial.
> >
> > Scott K
> >
> > --
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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Rohan Garg]

Sure, but downloading a browser on Linux is so much more different
than it is on Windows / OS X.
My primary aim with opening this discussion was not to decide which
browser we should ship on the ISO, but having a user friendly way in
which a first time user can install an alternative browser.

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 9:55 PM, Tres Finocchiaro
 wrote:
> This is a hot topic because the web browser is used so much by so many
> people that they are passionate about improving the experience.
>
> It's been said many times Chromium and Firefox are not going to happen, so
> it may be more worth our time to lay this discussion to rest.
>
> We're all accustomed to downloading the web browser of our choice, we've
> been doing it on all operating systems for years.  I'm not sure why this OS
> is any different.
>
> -Tres
>
>
> --
> - tres.finocchi...@gmail.com
>
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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Rohan Garg]

The problem with shipping the packages from that particular repo are 2 fold :

a) Those patches are fugly and will never make it into the archive
b) Since the patches will never be accepted in the archive the
advantage of having security updates becomes moot.

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 9:21 PM, James Cain  wrote:
> I'm all for Firefox being the default browser; however if we did that we
> would also have to be prepared for the fact that integration is lacking
> within Firefox for KDE by default. Which opens up a whole other set of
> issues. My guess is that perhaps Lubuntu's reasoning for shipping Chromium
> is two-fold: Better integration into the OS by default, and the fact that
> Chrome / Chromium is now more popular in Linux than Firefox is by the latest
> metrics that I have seen.
>
> If we could also include Blue Systems' Firefox-KDE integration packages (or
> a clone of the packages in ppa: kubuntu/ppa where firefox-kde would be the
> Kubuntu Firefox package and would have a dep for the KDE integration
> package) that would be ideal.
>
> BTW how does this work for Apple? I'm not familiar with how they do things.
> Is Safari the default? I'm just curious for comparison's sake.
>
> - James
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 9:54 AM, Rohan Garg  wrote:
>>
>> > In this case, you still get rekonq if there's no network during install.
>> >
>>
>> Yep, the same way you get a Kubuntu without multimedia codecs without a
>> network.
>>
>> > I don't see any significant advantage for doing it during the install
>> > versus
>> > making it easy to do post-install.  Why do you think it's better?
>> >
>>
>> I'm open to suggestions on how to make it super easy for users to
>> install another browser post-install. Especially since users migrating
>> from Windows/OS X have no concept of 'packages' and even installing
>> something like firefox can be daunting task. Personally, I'd expect
>> them to go to firefox.com and download the sources instead of
>> downloading the binary packages since that's what they're accustomed
>> to.
>>
>> > Also, if we start having application selection during install, what else
>> > ends
>> > up there?  It's a slippery slope.
>>
>> True. As always there are tradeoffs to be made here. But if you have a
>> look around, people seem to be comfortable with dragon as their video
>> player as compared to rekonq as their default browser ( just an
>> example ).
>>
>> >
>> > Scott K
>> >
>> > --
>> > kubuntu-devel mailing list
>> > kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
>> > Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
>> > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
>>
>> --
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>> kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
>> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
>
>
>
>
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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Rohan Garg]

Sounds like a good idea. Anyone opposed to having the firefox
installer in the kickoff?

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 9:18 PM, Scott Kitterman  wrote:
> On Thursday, January 31, 2013 08:24:45 PM Rohan Garg wrote:
>> > In this case, you still get rekonq if there's no network during install.
>>
>> Yep, the same way you get a Kubuntu without multimedia codecs without a
>> network.
>> > I don't see any significant advantage for doing it during the install
>> > versus making it easy to do post-install.  Why do you think it's better?
>>
>> I'm open to suggestions on how to make it super easy for users to
>> install another browser post-install. Especially since users migrating
>> from Windows/OS X have no concept of 'packages' and even installing
>> something like firefox can be daunting task. Personally, I'd expect
>> them to go to firefox.com and download the sources instead of
>> downloading the binary packages since that's what they're accustomed
>> to.
>
> How about putting the Firefox installer in the 'favorites' so that if someone
> can at least click on the K menu they'll see the familiar icon and (hopefully)
> click on it?
>
>> > Also, if we start having application selection during install, what else
>> > ends up there?  It's a slippery slope.
>>
>> True. As always there are tradeoffs to be made here. But if you have a
>> look around, people seem to be comfortable with dragon as their video
>> player as compared to rekonq as their default browser ( just an
>> example ).
>
> There was a time where Kaffeine versus Dragon was just as controversial.
>
> Scott K
>
> --
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> kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Tres Finocchiaro]

This is a hot topic because the web browser is used so much by so many
people that they are passionate about improving the experience.

It's been said many times Chromium and Firefox are not going to happen, so
it may be more worth our time to lay this discussion to rest.

We're all accustomed to downloading the web browser of our choice, we've
been doing it on all operating systems for years.  I'm not sure why this OS
is any different.

-Tres


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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Scott Kitterman]

On Thursday, January 31, 2013 05:20:02 PM Nowardev-Team wrote:
> well the security side is funny cuz rekonq is made with webkit and webkit
> is the engine of chromium
> 
> so if you trust  rekonq you should trust chromium

Close, but not quite.

Rekonq uses QtWebKit

See http://qt-project.org/wiki/QtWebKit

It's a separate code base with it's own issues and is even less maintained in 
the distro than webkit.  I don't particularly trust rekonq, but the 
intersection of the set of secure browsers and browsers that will fit on the 
install media is empty.

Scott K

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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Nowardev-Team]

If we're going to put Firefox on our install media we should just make it
default.   It's the only browser in the archive with proper security
support.  In the long run that's a really, really essential feature for
browsers.



>
> The fact that Lubuntu made a different choice should not sway us a bit.
>
> I believe we should make opinionated choices to give our users a safe,
> functional, KDE experience.  For different applications,  the priority of
> those factors will be different. For a web browser, I think that's the
> correct order.
>
> If Firefox doesn't fit, then we throw the first two out and ship rekonq.
>
> Scott K
>

well the security side is funny cuz rekonq is made with webkit and webkit
is the engine of chromium

so if you trust  rekonq you should trust chromium

firefox for me doens't fit cuz you need to customize it to get a good
experience for kde guys  (ark dolphin etc ... open with i mean... )

i would prefer chromium . instead of that "thing" called rekonq.

i like the idea on the installer . but again space issue on the iso ?

if internet is aviable ask to user in the installation step which one wants
install
if internet is not aviable we could ship  kubuntu without browser but then
we could create a folder in the destkop with these icons :

install firefox
install chromium
install rekonq
install whatever
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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[James Cain]

I'm all for Firefox being the default browser; however if we did that we
would also have to be prepared for the fact that integration is lacking
within Firefox for KDE by default. Which opens up a whole other set of
issues. My guess is that perhaps Lubuntu's reasoning for shipping Chromium
is two-fold: Better integration into the OS by default, and the fact that
Chrome / Chromium is now more popular in Linux than Firefox is by the
latest metrics that I have seen.

If we could also include Blue Systems' Firefox-KDE integration packages (or
a clone of the packages in ppa: kubuntu/ppa where firefox-kde would be the
Kubuntu Firefox package and would have a dep for the KDE integration
package) that would be ideal.

BTW how does this work for Apple? I'm not familiar with how they do things.
Is Safari the default? I'm just curious for comparison's sake.

- James


On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 9:54 AM, Rohan Garg  wrote:

> > In this case, you still get rekonq if there's no network during install.
> >
>
> Yep, the same way you get a Kubuntu without multimedia codecs without a
> network.
>
> > I don't see any significant advantage for doing it during the install
> versus
> > making it easy to do post-install.  Why do you think it's better?
> >
>
> I'm open to suggestions on how to make it super easy for users to
> install another browser post-install. Especially since users migrating
> from Windows/OS X have no concept of 'packages' and even installing
> something like firefox can be daunting task. Personally, I'd expect
> them to go to firefox.com and download the sources instead of
> downloading the binary packages since that's what they're accustomed
> to.
>
> > Also, if we start having application selection during install, what else
> ends
> > up there?  It's a slippery slope.
>
> True. As always there are tradeoffs to be made here. But if you have a
> look around, people seem to be comfortable with dragon as their video
> player as compared to rekonq as their default browser ( just an
> example ).
>
> >
> > Scott K
> >
> > --
> > kubuntu-devel mailing list
> > kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
> > Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
>
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> kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Scott Kitterman]

On Thursday, January 31, 2013 08:24:45 PM Rohan Garg wrote:
> > In this case, you still get rekonq if there's no network during install.
> 
> Yep, the same way you get a Kubuntu without multimedia codecs without a
> network.
> > I don't see any significant advantage for doing it during the install
> > versus making it easy to do post-install.  Why do you think it's better?
> 
> I'm open to suggestions on how to make it super easy for users to
> install another browser post-install. Especially since users migrating
> from Windows/OS X have no concept of 'packages' and even installing
> something like firefox can be daunting task. Personally, I'd expect
> them to go to firefox.com and download the sources instead of
> downloading the binary packages since that's what they're accustomed
> to.

How about putting the Firefox installer in the 'favorites' so that if someone 
can at least click on the K menu they'll see the familiar icon and (hopefully) 
click on it?

> > Also, if we start having application selection during install, what else
> > ends up there?  It's a slippery slope.
> 
> True. As always there are tradeoffs to be made here. But if you have a
> look around, people seem to be comfortable with dragon as their video
> player as compared to rekonq as their default browser ( just an
> example ).

There was a time where Kaffeine versus Dragon was just as controversial.

Scott K

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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Rohan Garg]

> In this case, you still get rekonq if there's no network during install.
>

Yep, the same way you get a Kubuntu without multimedia codecs without a network.

> I don't see any significant advantage for doing it during the install versus
> making it easy to do post-install.  Why do you think it's better?
>

I'm open to suggestions on how to make it super easy for users to
install another browser post-install. Especially since users migrating
from Windows/OS X have no concept of 'packages' and even installing
something like firefox can be daunting task. Personally, I'd expect
them to go to firefox.com and download the sources instead of
downloading the binary packages since that's what they're accustomed
to.

> Also, if we start having application selection during install, what else ends
> up there?  It's a slippery slope.

True. As always there are tradeoffs to be made here. But if you have a
look around, people seem to be comfortable with dragon as their video
player as compared to rekonq as their default browser ( just an
example ).

>
> Scott K
>
> --
> kubuntu-devel mailing list
> kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Scott Kitterman]

On Thursday, January 31, 2013 07:18:41 PM Rohan Garg wrote:
> > If we're going to put Firefox on our install media we should just make it
> > default.   It's the only browser in the archive with proper security
> > support.  In the long run that's a really, really essential feature for
> > browsers.
> You misunderstood me, I'm proposing to make it opt-in like the mp3
> codecs on the "Prepare page".

In this case, you still get rekonq if there's no network during install.

I don't see any significant advantage for doing it during the install versus 
making it easy to do post-install.  Why do you think it's better?

Also, if we start having application selection during install, what else ends 
up there?  It's a slippery slope.

Scott K

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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Rohan Garg]

> If we're going to put Firefox on our install media we should just make it 
> default.   It's the only browser in the archive with proper security support. 
>  In the long run that's a really, really essential feature for browsers.
>
You misunderstood me, I'm proposing to make it opt-in like the mp3
codecs on the "Prepare page".

> The fact that Lubuntu made a different choice should not sway us a bit.
>
You're right. I was simply putting the facts out there. I am of the
opinion that we should talk to the Lubuntu folks about how choosing
chromium as the default is turning out for them with respect to
security updates etc.

> I believe we should make opinionated choices to give our users a safe, 
> functional, KDE experience.  For different applications,  the priority of 
> those factors will be different. For a web browser, I think that's the 
> correct order.
>
> If Firefox doesn't fit, then we throw the first two out and ship rekonq.
>
> Scott K
>
>
>
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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Scott Kitterman]

Rohan Garg  wrote:

>Hi everyone
>Since the default browser seems to be a fairly hot topic in Kubuntu
>I'd like to propose the following :
>
>* Keep rekonq as the default browser
>* Add a new browser selection page in Ubiquity right after the
>"Prepare" page which allows the user to pick one of the the 3
>available choices Firefox/Chromium/Rekonq ( rekonq selected by default
>)
>
>Pro's : People don't complain (loudly) about our browser selection
>   For people trying out Kubuntu for the first time who know
>nothing about packages and how to install software, it gives them an
>easy way to choose a more feature complete browser.
>
>Con's : Adds another step in the installer
>
>While some people might argue that users might not be able to choose
>one over the other, this will not hold true for most of the users
>since we can safely assume that they have used/heard about either one
>of the browsers in the past and already have a preference.
>
>I've also heard some issues being raised about chromium not having a
>security cycle in tune with our release cycle, but it seems that
>Lubuntu ships Chromium as their default browser.
>
>I'd like to hear everyone's opinions on this.

If we're going to put Firefox on our install media we should just make it 
default.   It's the only browser in the archive with proper security support.  
In the long run that's a really, really essential feature for browsers.

The fact that Lubuntu made a different choice should not sway us a bit.

I believe we should make opinionated choices to give our users a safe, 
functional, KDE experience.  For different applications,  the priority of those 
factors will be different. For a web browser, I think that's the correct order.

If Firefox doesn't fit, then we throw the first two out and ship rekonq.

Scott K



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Re: Browser selection from Ubiquity

[Rafael Belmonte]

I think it is a good idea, +1.

2013/1/31 Rohan Garg 

> Hi everyone
> Since the default browser seems to be a fairly hot topic in Kubuntu
> I'd like to propose the following :
>
> * Keep rekonq as the default browser
> * Add a new browser selection page in Ubiquity right after the
> "Prepare" page which allows the user to pick one of the the 3
> available choices Firefox/Chromium/Rekonq ( rekonq selected by default
> )
>
> Pro's : People don't complain (loudly) about our browser selection
>For people trying out Kubuntu for the first time who know
> nothing about packages and how to install software, it gives them an
> easy way to choose a more feature complete browser.
>
> Con's : Adds another step in the installer
>
> While some people might argue that users might not be able to choose
> one over the other, this will not hold true for most of the users
> since we can safely assume that they have used/heard about either one
> of the browsers in the past and already have a preference.
>
> I've also heard some issues being raised about chromium not having a
> security cycle in tune with our release cycle, but it seems that
> Lubuntu ships Chromium as their default browser.
>
> I'd like to hear everyone's opinions on this.
>
> Regards
> Rohan Garg
>
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