Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

soo… driving home in my daily ritual of an hour and a half, parking lot 
crawl, thinking of this mod, of course... and it suddenly dawned on me that 
it would not be possible to "pump" the router cutting action AND follow a 
template... and that only straight, cylindrical work could be "pump" cut... 
that situation is basically a "MOD KILLER" for me!... I could still 
possibly put the pump cutting idea to use in making drapery poles, but I 
already have over a hundred designs that are currently not selling... so, 
from a "can I make some money" standpoint, this mod is not beneficial... 
but I did expect that before I started and thought some artistic outlet 
would emerge from the mod... but without the ability to follow a template 
and do shaped pieces, while pumping the cutting action, it just seems not 
worthwhile to proceed... or a re-thinking of the project is in order, but 
it must include the ability to follow a template... a few thoughts have 
come to me to solve the problem, but they are quite complex and I am not 
100% sure they would work, or that they would have some quirks to them... 
this has taken the wind out of my sails, so to speak, as I was ready to 
proceed with this project... so I am back to the staring-into-space, 
thinking-of-a-solution mode... apologies to all for starting this without 
thinking it all the way through... if anyone has any ideas or suggestions 
they would be very welcome, so please comment and post away... and it's 
back to the drawing board!... Joe


>

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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

hey Tim!... hex shaft was the direction I  was considering... getting the 
shaft is easy( 22 mm, McMaster... just .009ths smaller than 7/8") but 
getting the brass, flanged "carriers" is a big problem... seems the only 
place to get them is a Japanese company... their only US rep is some huge 
aerospace contractor in Connecticut,  that is not responding to my very 
small inquiry... so now considering a 7/8" dia. shaft and using 7/8", steel 
collars as the sliding carriers... steel on steel is not desirable, but 
then there will be minimal wear, as the movement along the hex would be 
very slow... don't see a round shaft coming into play here as the set of 
rosette wheels needs to rotate and traverse along this "secondary" 
lead-type screw... not sure what you mean when you say "a single shaft on 
the lead screw"... I have thought about phasing the cuts, as we do that now 
in the shop when we are doing reeding and fluting on our wood shaper... the 
indexing head we use has an adjustment to rotate the workpiece while it is 
mounted between the centers of the fluting jig attachment... I stayed away 
from that idea(for the moment... LOL!) as this mod is already fairly 
complex... but I do think it would be easy enough as the set of rosette 
wheels would be bolted as one solid unit... one smaller, blank wheel one 
the end of the carriage could have a slot in it to allow an adjustment of 
approximately 90 degrees... granted, this is not "indexed" like a rose 
engine has, but you would just have to do the phasing by using a measuring 
technique of sorts... but i'll address after the initial is complete, IF it 
ever does get completed!... I have to emphasize that aspect of this mod... 
I am still in the design and research phase of the project, and it isn't 
going as smoothly as my other Legacy mods have gone... in regards to using 
chain versus gears, I worry about backlash when using gears... to build in 
adjustments so the backlash can be either negligible  or non-existent, is 
somewhat difficult and very challenging... I have had some success when 
using sprockets and chains, but an adjustable tensioner must be put into 
place... but totally agree, this is where I have the most concerns... it 
must be perfect going either forwards or backwards, and there can be NO 
slippage!... what I would really like to work out, is to have the ability 
to "pump" the router action and follow a pattern at the same time, with 
repeatable results when indexing... this would allow a "pumped" type cut to 
spiral around a shaped form(like a vase, for example)… but MATBE that can 
be worked out at a later date... and if it can't, well so be it... 
obviously, some huge limitations are to be expected here... thanks for 
taking the time to comment... please comment further... Joe




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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

[Tim Krause]

A hex shaft could work as well.  Even two shaft clamps on a round shaft would 
work.  I know from error that a single shaft on the leadscrew is very prone to 
slipping! 

Another thing you have possibly not considered is phasing the cuts.  By 
rotating the cam on the shaft you can get different starting points of your 
pattern.  This creates a large array of what appears to be complicated effects 
that are very simple to duplicate.

I disagree about timing being a problem.  With gears or chain either work well 
enough in the real world.  Paul  Cler used gears and chain on his early 
machines.  Gears where used back in the 1800's, why reinvent the wheel:-)

Tim

On Dec 12, 2018, 6:36 AM, at 6:36 AM, 'joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills 
 wrote:
>Hey Tim!... thanks for the reply!... a response and some ideas to 
>consider... the design I seem to be considering will always be in
>place, 
>ready to be used, with minimal time to setup... the hex spindle being 
>considered would always be in its position of above and forward of the 
>Legacy lead screw, which would not be ideal as far as using the Legacy
>as 
>it was originally intended... i.e. you would have to lean over and
>reach in 
>to make adjustments... not ideal, but like you said, to remove the 
>"accessory" and reattach it every time you wanted to use it, would 
>certainly be a P.I.T.A. … I considered putting the hex rod on the
>backside 
>of the machine, but it is critical that the rod and Legacy lead screw
>be in 
>somewhat perfect unison... and the further apart they might be, the
>harder 
>it is to achieve that unison... so I choose the front mount design,
>with 
>chain and sprockets going down to the lead screw... the hex would be
>the 
>same length as the lead screw, so all of the components would stay on
>the 
>machine through all operations... the cam "assembly" would be easily 
>detachable from the router carriage, and slid down to the end of the 
>machine, where it hopefully would not be in the way of normal machine 
>use... and the chain and sprockets would remain as a one-to-one ratio, 
>without change... certainly you could start playing with the diameters
>of 
>the sprockets for different ratios, which would be easy enough, but
>that is 
>something I MIGHT! think could be considered down the road... once the
>mod 
>was completed(if it ever is completed!), a lot could be done to expand
>on 
>it's capabilities... I just want to see if the basics could be up and 
>running for the moment... I could really push these ideas forward if I
>had 
>daily access to my machine, bit it is currently in my warehouse in
>upstate 
>NY(ready to be used, but not really on a Monday-to-Friday basis)… so
>this 
>mod is going to take some time... even considering obtaining a
>dedicated 
>machine(1200? or 1500?) for this project if I could find one in a price
>
>range that would make sense to go that route... that way I could have
>daily 
>access to the project... again, thanks for sharing your experiences...
>it 
>is informative... Joe
>
>
>>>
>
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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['Curt George' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

 Hello and Good morning .There was a video put out a few years ago on Oval 
turning, (I know its not the same.but a lot of the details that he did were 
WOW! in the OT since.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4c_yFmaHso&t=7s  
Forster Giesmann results are things of beauty that I one day would like to be 
able to make my self. Its not just the Oval, but the details added to his work 
that has me intrigued.
I have spent a LOT of TIME but not as many 0's on this concept. (thanks Joe, I 
will remember your friends quote.) ;-)
I have to go.have a great day everyone.
C.A.G. 





On Wednesday, December 12, 2018, 9:36:35 AM EST, 'joe biunno' via Legacy 
Ornamental Mills  wrote:  
 
 Hey Tim!... thanks for the reply!... a response and some ideas to consider... 
the design I seem to be considering will always be in place, ready to be used, 
with minimal time to setup... the hex spindle being considered would always be 
in its position of above and forward of the Legacy lead screw, which would not 
be ideal as far as using the Legacy as it was originally intended... i.e. you 
would have to lean over and reach in to make adjustments... not ideal, but like 
you said, to remove the "accessory" and reattach it every time you wanted to 
use it, would certainly be a P.I.T.A. … I considered putting the hex rod on the 
backside of the machine, but it is critical that the rod and Legacy lead screw 
be in somewhat perfect unison... and the further apart they might be, the 
harder it is to achieve that unison... so I choose the front mount design, with 
chain and sprockets going down to the lead screw... the hex would be the same 
length as the lead screw, so all of the components would stay on the machine 
through all operations... the cam "assembly" would be easily detachable from 
the router carriage, and slid down to the end of the machine, where it 
hopefully would not be in the way of normal machine use... and the chain and 
sprockets would remain as a one-to-one ratio, without change... certainly you 
could start playing with the diameters of the sprockets for different ratios, 
which would be easy enough, but that is something I MIGHT! think could be 
considered down the road... once the mod was completed(if it ever is 
completed!), a lot could be done to expand on it's capabilities... I just want 
to see if the basics could be up and running for the moment... I could really 
push these ideas forward if I had daily access to my machine, bit it is 
currently in my warehouse in upstate NY(ready to be used, but not really on a 
Monday-to-Friday basis)… so this mod is going to take some time... even 
considering obtaining a dedicated machine(1200? or 1500?) for this project if I 
could find one in a price range that would make sense to go that route... that 
way I could have daily access to the project... again, thanks for sharing your 
experiences... it is informative... Joe








  











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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

Hey Tim!... thanks for the reply!... a response and some ideas to 
consider... the design I seem to be considering will always be in place, 
ready to be used, with minimal time to setup... the hex spindle being 
considered would always be in its position of above and forward of the 
Legacy lead screw, which would not be ideal as far as using the Legacy as 
it was originally intended... i.e. you would have to lean over and reach in 
to make adjustments... not ideal, but like you said, to remove the 
"accessory" and reattach it every time you wanted to use it, would 
certainly be a P.I.T.A. … I considered putting the hex rod on the backside 
of the machine, but it is critical that the rod and Legacy lead screw be in 
somewhat perfect unison... and the further apart they might be, the harder 
it is to achieve that unison... so I choose the front mount design, with 
chain and sprockets going down to the lead screw... the hex would be the 
same length as the lead screw, so all of the components would stay on the 
machine through all operations... the cam "assembly" would be easily 
detachable from the router carriage, and slid down to the end of the 
machine, where it hopefully would not be in the way of normal machine 
use... and the chain and sprockets would remain as a one-to-one ratio, 
without change... certainly you could start playing with the diameters of 
the sprockets for different ratios, which would be easy enough, but that is 
something I MIGHT! think could be considered down the road... once the mod 
was completed(if it ever is completed!), a lot could be done to expand on 
it's capabilities... I just want to see if the basics could be up and 
running for the moment... I could really push these ideas forward if I had 
daily access to my machine, bit it is currently in my warehouse in upstate 
NY(ready to be used, but not really on a Monday-to-Friday basis)… so this 
mod is going to take some time... even considering obtaining a dedicated 
machine(1200? or 1500?) for this project if I could find one in a price 
range that would make sense to go that route... that way I could have daily 
access to the project... again, thanks for sharing your experiences... it 
is informative... Joe


>>

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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

[Tim Krause]

I've done pumping on the legacy before, but was not satisfied with the amount 
of time it took to setup and make changes.  It was all done on the rotary 
table, but could also work wrapping around a cylinder.  The method used where 
cams cut on a cnc and added to the leadscrew.  I used a spring setup that would 
quickly fatigue and fail during a long run.  If I slowed the cut down it could 
have worked better.

To change the number of pumps on the piece I used a chain setup linking the 
leadscrew and spindle.  Changing the sprockets changed the ratio, thus the 
number of pumps.  This I similar to the method used by Pudsey Dawson (sp).

What I learned is close to what you are describing.  Running the cams on the 
backside of the machine on a keyed or square stock would be easier to swap out 
cams and prevent any slipping.  I was in the process of determining the spring 
rate when I was forced to abandon the project.  Also a method of variable swash 
plate is a great way to start.  That way young can adjust the travel of the 
pump.  This is helpful when start on the outside edge of a rotary project as 
you move into the center.

Now I know pictures are worth a thousand words, but I'm not sure if I 
documented it because it was not ready for show at the time.  The parts are 
buried in a storage unit some what like the last scene in "The Raiders of the 
Lost Ark" movie!  

As to what I wrote, I should really not write replies when waking up or going 
to bed.  It is what it is!

Tim

On Dec 12, 2018, 5:22 AM, at 5:22 AM, 'joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills 
 wrote:
>thanks to all for their comments, compliments, encouragement, etc. ...
>Hey 
>Tim!... not sure if I am interpreting  your comment correctly... what I
>am 
>saying in my previous post, is that I do not intend to convert the
>Legacy 
>into a rose engine machine... they certainly are two very different
>pieces 
>of equipment, although, I might guess, you could put them in the same 
>classification of "ornamental milling equipment"... what I would like
>to 
>attempt to achieve, as many in this group have thought about in the
>past, 
>is to accessorize the Legacy to achieve "rose-engine like" cuts on
>their 
>workpieces... a rose engine has far to many bells and whistles to think
>
>that they could be adapted onto a Legacy... but just a simplistic
>pumping 
>action option would open up a new world of options for design on the 
>legacy, as the "wave" attachment has done... is it possible to do a
>pump 
>action on a Legacy?... I believe it could be... can it be done on a 
>reasonable budget is the bigger question... let's face it, throw enough
>
>money at any project, it can be completed... I know a very well known, 
>ornamental turner(Harvey Fein) who told me whenever he came upon a 
>problem/challenge, he simply put enough zeros, on the end of what it
>would 
>cost, to fix it!... LOL!... I certainly do not have the finances that 
>Harvey has, and as a matter of fact I might have to rob a bank to see
>this 
>mod through!... or start a "go fund me" page!... LOL!... but I am going
>to 
>try to do this as cheaply as possible(plastic rosette wheels, for
>example, 
>not brass)… so, when you say a Legacy "should not" be a rose engine,
>are 
>you referring to the idea that a simpler conversion is not attainable, 
>solely from a logistic stand point?,  or that the attempt should not be
>
>made because the desired type of end work will not be doable?... thanks
>for 
>taking the time to read this and my other ramblings, your opinion
>matters 
>and is respected... Joe
>
>
>
>
>-- 
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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

[Tim Krause]

I've done pumping on the legacy before, but was not satisfied with the amount 
of time it took to setup and make changes.  It was all done on the rotary 
table, but could also work wrapping around a cylinder.  The method used where 
cams cut on a cnc and added to the leadscrew.  I used a spring setup that would 
quickly fatigue and fail during a long run.  If I slowed the cut down it could 
have worked better.

To change the number of pumps on the piece I used a chain setup linking the 
leadscrew and spindle.  Changing the sprockets changed the ratio, thus the 
number of pumps.  This I similar to the method used by Pudsey Dawson (sp).

What I learned is close to what you are describing.  Running the cams on the 
backside of the machine on a keyed or square stock would be easier to swap out 
cams and prevent any slipping.  I was in the process of determining the spring 
rate when I was forced to abandon the project.  Also a method of variable swash 
plate is a great way to start.  That way young can adjust the travel of the 
pump.  This is helpful when start on the outside edge of a rotary project as 
you move into the center.

Now I know pictures are worth a thousand words, but I'm not sure if I 
documented it because it was not ready for show at the time.  The parts are 
buried in a storage unit some what like the last scene in "The Raiders of the 
Lost Ark" movie!  

As to what I wrote, I should really not write replies when waking up or going 
to bed.  It is what it is!

Tim

On Dec 12, 2018, 5:22 AM, at 5:22 AM, 'joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills 
 wrote:
>thanks to all for their comments, compliments, encouragement, etc. ...
>Hey 
>Tim!... not sure if I am interpreting  your comment correctly... what I
>am 
>saying in my previous post, is that I do not intend to convert the
>Legacy 
>into a rose engine machine... they certainly are two very different
>pieces 
>of equipment, although, I might guess, you could put them in the same 
>classification of "ornamental milling equipment"... what I would like
>to 
>attempt to achieve, as many in this group have thought about in the
>past, 
>is to accessorize the Legacy to achieve "rose-engine like" cuts on
>their 
>workpieces... a rose engine has far to many bells and whistles to think
>
>that they could be adapted onto a Legacy... but just a simplistic
>pumping 
>action option would open up a new world of options for design on the 
>legacy, as the "wave" attachment has done... is it possible to do a
>pump 
>action on a Legacy?... I believe it could be... can it be done on a 
>reasonable budget is the bigger question... let's face it, throw enough
>
>money at any project, it can be completed... I know a very well known, 
>ornamental turner(Harvey Fein) who told me whenever he came upon a 
>problem/challenge, he simply put enough zeros, on the end of what it
>would 
>cost, to fix it!... LOL!... I certainly do not have the finances that 
>Harvey has, and as a matter of fact I might have to rob a bank to see
>this 
>mod through!... or start a "go fund me" page!... LOL!... but I am going
>to 
>try to do this as cheaply as possible(plastic rosette wheels, for
>example, 
>not brass)… so, when you say a Legacy "should not" be a rose engine,
>are 
>you referring to the idea that a simpler conversion is not attainable, 
>solely from a logistic stand point?,  or that the attempt should not be
>
>made because the desired type of end work will not be doable?... thanks
>for 
>taking the time to read this and my other ramblings, your opinion
>matters 
>and is respected... Joe
>
>
>
>
>-- 
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>Groups "Legacy Ornamental Mills" group.
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>an email to legacy-ornamental-mills+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

thanks to all for their comments, compliments, encouragement, etc. ... Hey 
Tim!... not sure if I am interpreting  your comment correctly... what I am 
saying in my previous post, is that I do not intend to convert the Legacy 
into a rose engine machine... they certainly are two very different pieces 
of equipment, although, I might guess, you could put them in the same 
classification of "ornamental milling equipment"... what I would like to 
attempt to achieve, as many in this group have thought about in the past, 
is to accessorize the Legacy to achieve "rose-engine like" cuts on their 
workpieces... a rose engine has far to many bells and whistles to think 
that they could be adapted onto a Legacy... but just a simplistic pumping 
action option would open up a new world of options for design on the 
legacy, as the "wave" attachment has done... is it possible to do a pump 
action on a Legacy?... I believe it could be... can it be done on a 
reasonable budget is the bigger question... let's face it, throw enough 
money at any project, it can be completed... I know a very well known, 
ornamental turner(Harvey Fein) who told me whenever he came upon a 
problem/challenge, he simply put enough zeros, on the end of what it would 
cost, to fix it!... LOL!... I certainly do not have the finances that 
Harvey has, and as a matter of fact I might have to rob a bank to see this 
mod through!... or start a "go fund me" page!... LOL!... but I am going to 
try to do this as cheaply as possible(plastic rosette wheels, for example, 
not brass)… so, when you say a Legacy "should not" be a rose engine, are 
you referring to the idea that a simpler conversion is not attainable, 
solely from a logistic stand point?,  or that the attempt should not be 
made because the desired type of end work will not be doable?... thanks for 
taking the time to read this and my other ramblings, your opinion matters 
and is respected... Joe




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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

[Tim Krause]

Well said Joe,

I'm also a member of SOT and on and off OTI.  The scale is what makes the LOM 
different.  We can rope poles with the ease of roping a pen.  There is a small 
handful of members in the group that also own rose engines and straight line 
machine.  I have yet to meet a member that owns a brocade machine.  Any way, I 
don't think any longer that the lom should be a rose engines.  It's similar to 
comparing a chop saw to a circular saw.  Both cut wood, but in very different 
ways.

Tim

On Dec 11, 2018, 5:54 AM, at 5:54 AM, 'joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills 
 wrote:
>just a couple of points that I would like to make... I have been a fan
>of 
>ornamental turning for many years... joined the society, went to the 
>symposiums(not for several years though), etc and always have had a
>
>very high admiration of the work and artistry that was produced,
>although a 
>bit frustrated because without the machinery and attachments, it was
>not 
>attainable( at least to the degree that was being exhibited and the
>award 
>winning pieces being shown)… what needs to be considered here, while 
>contemplating(and I will emphasize the word "contemplating"!... LOL!)
>doing 
>this very unique and unusual mod to a Legacy mill, is what the
>expectation 
>of a typical piece might be... I am quite sure that it will not have
>the 
>extreme complexity and detailing that we are all accustomed to seeing
>on a 
>typical, ornamental, "holtzapffel", rose engine milled piece... if this
>mod 
>is completed, I might expect a typical workpiece to be at least twice
>the 
>size of other ornamental pieces... and at times, up to four times 
>larger(both in diameter and length) than a typical ornamental piece...
>so 
>the high degree of complexity and detailing is just not going to be 
>there... what would be there though, is the larger size workpiece, with
>a 
>degree of design and complexity that was not done or seen before(at
>least 
>to my knowledge)… and which also goes along with my general sense of, 
>"bigger is better"... LOL!... no surprise there!... the point in making
>
>this statement is what anyone should expect, if this mod should ever be
>
>achieved... something unique, something different, but not something on
>the 
>level of what a rose engine lathe can do... that being said, we move 
>forward!... regards... Joe Biunno
>
>
>>>
>
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RE: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

[Michael Kratky]

Joe, agree also as LOM owner for 15 years and follower of the Rose Engine Lathe 
(holtzapffel) for over 20 and seeing them in action at many AAW Symposiums.

 

>From what I’ve seen anything is possible once someone sets their mind to it 
>and be supportive which is what this group is all about.

Happy Holidays,

Michael K

 

From: 'joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills 
[mailto:legacy-ornamental-mills@googlegroups.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2018 8:55 AM
To: Legacy Ornamental Mills
Subject: Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

 

just a couple of points that I would like to make... I have been a fan of 
ornamental turning for many years... joined the society, went to the 
symposiums(not for several years though), etc and always have had a very 
high admiration of the work and artistry that was produced, although a bit 
frustrated because without the machinery and attachments, it was not 
attainable( at least to the degree that was being exhibited and the award 
winning pieces being shown)… what needs to be considered here, while 
contemplating(and I will emphasize the word "contemplating"!... LOL!) doing 
this very unique and unusual mod to a Legacy mill, is what the expectation of a 
typical piece might be... I am quite sure that it will not have the extreme 
complexity and detailing that we are all accustomed to seeing on a typical, 
ornamental, "holtzapffel", rose engine milled piece... if this mod is 
completed, I might expect a typical workpiece to be at least twice the size of 
other ornamental pieces... and at times, up to four times larger(both in 
diameter and length) than a typical ornamental piece... so the high degree of 
complexity and detailing is just not going to be there... what would be there 
though, is the larger size workpiece, with a degree of design and complexity 
that was not done or seen before(at least to my knowledge)… and which also goes 
along with my general sense of, "bigger is better"... LOL!... no surprise 
there!... the point in making this statement is what anyone should expect, if 
this mod should ever be achieved... something unique, something different, but 
not something on the level of what a rose engine lathe can do... that being 
said, we move forward!... regards... Joe Biunno

 

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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

just a couple of points that I would like to make... I have been a fan of 
ornamental turning for many years... joined the society, went to the 
symposiums(not for several years though), etc and always have had a 
very high admiration of the work and artistry that was produced, although a 
bit frustrated because without the machinery and attachments, it was not 
attainable( at least to the degree that was being exhibited and the award 
winning pieces being shown)… what needs to be considered here, while 
contemplating(and I will emphasize the word "contemplating"!... LOL!) doing 
this very unique and unusual mod to a Legacy mill, is what the expectation 
of a typical piece might be... I am quite sure that it will not have the 
extreme complexity and detailing that we are all accustomed to seeing on a 
typical, ornamental, "holtzapffel", rose engine milled piece... if this mod 
is completed, I might expect a typical workpiece to be at least twice the 
size of other ornamental pieces... and at times, up to four times 
larger(both in diameter and length) than a typical ornamental piece... so 
the high degree of complexity and detailing is just not going to be 
there... what would be there though, is the larger size workpiece, with a 
degree of design and complexity that was not done or seen before(at least 
to my knowledge)… and which also goes along with my general sense of, 
"bigger is better"... LOL!... no surprise there!... the point in making 
this statement is what anyone should expect, if this mod should ever be 
achieved... something unique, something different, but not something on the 
level of what a rose engine lathe can do... that being said, we move 
forward!... regards... Joe Biunno


>>

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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

Hey Curt!... thanks for the links... never knew of "the modern rose"... did 
some research and they seem not to be in business any longer... what caught 
my attention was that there was reference to the fact that there was a 
possibility that with the right setup and attachments, their piece of 
equipment could rock a headstock and tailstock in unison, thus allowing 
spindle work... which is what is the general idea in what getting the 
Legacy to do, but by rocking the cutting action, not the workpiece... they 
don't mention as to what capacity their setup could possibly allow... I am 
hoping for a 6 or 8 foot capacity on the Legacy, depending on what machine 
is used... of course, smaller would be easily possible, if that was 
desired... the nova chuck I had seen many years ago, but was not in the 
"mod" mode I have been in for the last several years, so it really did not 
peek my interest... and that too, has now been discontinued... obviously, 
there just was not enough interest in ornamental turning to sustain these 
pieces of equipment, and for the same reasons, Legacy pulled the plug as 
well... but that's another story... thanks for the info, it is very 
interesting and might have an idea or two to consider and use... Joe


>

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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

[Tim Ziegler]

Good morning,

I must say I have not seen much of this *Rose Engine Lathe* until I 
recently joined your forum. With my recent acquiring of the *WoodChuck* and 
getting to know a couple of you guys quite well. This has become a very 
interesting piece of History for me. I have been fascinated by the drive 
that not only drives these lathes but the drive and motivation it is 
creating in you guys and your interest in making your existing machines do 
so much more. I have been a passionate woodworker for many years and have 
used my *Shop Smith*, and my *4224 B Powermatic lathe* (both equipped with 
duplicators) for many duplication's of chair and table legs, along with 
many other repairs in my business, and now with the *WoodChuck* and this 
forum and all the knowledge of turning I am able to glean from you guys I 
believe this will introduce a lot more I can not only offer my customer my 
enjoy the world of artistic turning. I too like Curt,& others, am excited 
to see the out come of your creation you are building Joe. keep the ideas 
flowing and look forward to more upcoming posts and getting to know more of 
you guys.

On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 8:21:23 AM UTC-6, joe biunno wrote:
>
> https://www.facebook.com/interestingengineering/videos/1567378136665218/ 
> … saw this excellent video on facebook today and thought I would share... 
> nothing new, as I am sure most, if not all, of us have seen a rose engine 
> lathe in operation before... of course, it all starts with having the right 
> equipment, in this case a rose engine lathe... not sure if anyone on the 
> planet is producing a lathe of this type in today's timeline, but then 
> again, if there is, what would the cost be for such a complex piece of 
> equipment... but it is inspiring to think "what if" the Legacy could be 
> modified to do work that was the same or similar to a rose engine lathe? … 
> I do believe this subject has been discussed in the group in the past, but 
> not with this video... the artisan is exceptional and is worth looking at 
> some of his other videos on you tube... "G Phil Poirier" is the artisan
>

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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['Curt George' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

 Hey Joe!Neat ideas. I cant wait to see your mock-up.
By the way? have you seen these web 
sites?http://bicitywoodturners.com/newsletters/articles/Rose_Engine.pdf   The 
modern rose.

https://teknatool.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/1976497-nova-ornamental-turner
 Nova OT.

http://ornamentalturners.com/  OT international. Gallery is Awesome! Perhaps 
the forums could also help?

Have a good night.
C.A.G.
On Monday, December 10, 2018, 1:49:05 PM EST, 'joe biunno' via Legacy 
Ornamental Mills  wrote:  
 
 okay guys, here we go!... I was contacted and asked if I could better 
explain/show what is being considered here... so I did a very quick, hand 
sketch, of a side/end view of a typical Legacy machine... no need to critique 
the quality of the drawing, I know it stinks... but I am at a disadvantage as 
my machine is not in my shop, but at another location... so better measurements 
and perspectives were not possible... and I did work with an approximate scale 
in mind... in the sketch you can see the wave, pattern wheel positioned at the 
front of the machine, and attached to the Legacy router carriage... no brackets 
shown for that, as that would be pretty straight forward... there might be 
about 16 to 20 wheels mounted together, forming a cluster, as you most often 
see on a rose engine lathe... this cluster might be in a range of 6" to 8" 
wide, not counting the hex drive hubs on either side ... the cluster would 
slide along the hex rod running the length of the bed, going left and right... 
on the end of the hex rod would be a chain sprocket, looped by chain to another 
sprocket, attached to the end of the Legacy lead screw... with that we would 
now have the pattern wheels traversing left and right, and rotating as well... 
then there would be a "rub" bearing mounted to the sliding router assembly, 
with a spring tensioner... so as the rub bearing is pushed against the wave 
wheel, the router will have a "pump" action, as on an engine lathe... imagine 
being able to do a spiral, with pump action cuts, along a 60" spindle... all 
timed perfectly together, so multiple, indexed cuts would be easily possible... 
I would point out that I am not sure how well this would all work, without all 
axis' being on linear, ball bearings... the Legacy black, top hats could 
possibly have too much resistance to make this mod workable... or, some fine 
tuning of the top hats would need to be done... well, just an update... I am 
considering doing a physical, non-functioning mock-up in wood to see how 
everything lays out... it's quick and easy and might point out some problems 
that are just not visible at this stage... thanks for the read... Joe

On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 10:06:12 AM UTC-5, joe biunno wrote:
Hey Curt!... thanks for the reference, and that is the company I mentioned in 
the previous post... I had exchanged several emails with the owner of the 
company... nice person, answered all of my questions and sometimes that does 
not happen when dealing with other companies... but it's all good... like I 
mentioned, his pricing seems very reasonable... but the question remains, is 
the diameter of his rosettes correct for the kind of work that is being 
considered here on the Legacy... on a typical Legacy, you might be working on a 
piece that is most likely a max of 8" in diameter, especially if you are 
cutting from the side, which is the preferred position of cut, in my opinion... 
so that is a circumference of 24" +/-... I might anticipate possibly wanting to 
do 48, 1/2" cuts into that circumference, from an ornamental standpoint... and 
also, possibly, 96, 1/4" cuts... problem being, 96 "flats" on a 5 1/4' diameter 
rosette wheel works out to be approximately a 3/16" flat on the wheel... that 
is too small a flat to rub against, again, in my opinion... now, maybe a 1/4" 
cut into a workpiece is not to be expected as well... what is needed here is a 
conclusion as to what a proper balance is... remembering that we cannot expect 
the same type of repeats that a traditional rose engine lathe can do...so, an 
8" dia. rosette wheel would have 1/4" flats to achieve 96 cuts, 1/2" flats for 
48 cuts... I am thinking a 6" diameter wheel, maximum of 48 flats on the wheels 
edge, which would yield a 3/8" cut(+/-) on an 8" diameter workpiece, would be a 
good diameter to provide a good range over all diameters of work... and of 
course, you would work your way down from there, 36, 24 12, etc., etc then 
comes the scallops(inwards and outwards), and other patterns that you would 
want/need... I spoke to Wade(the owner of the company) and he can make the 
wheels in a larger diameter... or, you can make the wheels yourself, it's not 
that difficult to do... anyway, once the wheel diameter can be locked in, the 
design of the mod can continue... to those that are interested and reading 
these long posts, thanks... comments and suggestions are always welcome and 
needed!... Joe




  



-- 
Y

Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

Hey Curt!... thanks for the reference, and that is the company I mentioned 
in the previous post... I had exchanged several emails with the owner of 
the company... nice person, answered all of my questions and sometimes that 
does not happen when dealing with other companies... but it's all good... 
like I mentioned, his pricing seems very reasonable... but the question 
remains, is the diameter of his rosettes correct for the kind of work that 
is being considered here on the Legacy... on a typical Legacy, you might be 
working on a piece that is most likely a max of 8" in diameter, especially 
if you are cutting from the side, which is the preferred position of cut, 
in my opinion... so that is a circumference of 24" +/-... I might 
anticipate possibly wanting to do 48, 1/2" cuts into that circumference, 
from an ornamental standpoint... and also, possibly, 96, 1/4" cuts... 
problem being, 96 "flats" on a 5 1/4' diameter rosette wheel works out to 
be approximately a 3/16" flat on the wheel... that is too small a flat to 
rub against, again, in my opinion... now, maybe a 1/4" cut into a workpiece 
is not to be expected as well... what is needed here is a conclusion as to 
what a proper balance is... remembering that we cannot expect the same type 
of repeats that a traditional rose engine lathe can do...so, an 8" dia. 
rosette wheel would have 1/4" flats to achieve 96 cuts, 1/2" flats for 48 
cuts... I am thinking a 6" diameter wheel, maximum of 48 flats on the 
wheels edge, which would yield a 3/8" cut(+/-) on an 8" diameter workpiece, 
would be a good diameter to provide a good range over all diameters of 
work... and of course, you would work your way down from there, 36, 24 12, 
etc., etc then comes the scallops(inwards and outwards), and other 
patterns that you would want/need... I spoke to Wade(the owner of the 
company) and he can make the wheels in a larger diameter... or, you can 
make the wheels yourself, it's not that difficult to do... anyway, once the 
wheel diameter can be locked in, the design of the mod can continue... to 
those that are interested and reading these long posts, thanks... comments 
and suggestions are always welcome and needed!... Joe


>
>

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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['Curt George' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

 Hello Joe (and everyone else reading here.)
I know we are con pairing,  Apples- Roses ;-p  but this web site, has some neat 
things to look at. Not only the machine but perhaps some of the parts, (and 
perhaps just looking at the way it works? might help.)
Mandala Rose Engine 


| 
| 
|  | 
Mandala Rose Engine

Mandala Rose Works, LLC is a provider of woodworking and metalworking products 
and services. We sell Rose Engin...
 |

 |

 |


Note. the rose lathe is not the only OT machine around, the Legacy is more like 
the Holtzapffel Lathe, then it is to the Rose Engine lathe. I have found the 
Holtzapffel sites more use-full for me to envision how to make the Legacy into 
a more OT/OM Machine...

C.A.G.


On Saturday, December 8, 2018, 12:58:03 PM EST, 'joe biunno' via Legacy 
Ornamental Mills  wrote:  
 
 here is a photo I found on the web of a cluster of wave pattern wheels... 
imagine a set up like this for this Legacy mod... the hex rod that I posted 
previously, traversing through the center of these wheels... those brass 
carriers, also posted, with the flange, locking the cluster together and 
allowing all of the discs to slide along the hex rod... then that assembly is 
mounted to the legacy router carriage and projects just a bit above the Legacy 
lead screw and a bit away from the machine so the cluster has the necessary 
clearance while traveling left and right... note the rubbing wheel bearing 
mounted to a piece of bar steel, as in the photo... this bearing setup would be 
attached to the Legacy router bed, as low as possible, and of course, be 
adjustable left and right, so any wheel pattern could be used... this project 
might just motivate me to look into an inexpensive, 3D, drawing program... 
later guys... Joe










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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

here is a photo I found on the web of a cluster of wave pattern wheels... 
imagine a set up like this for this Legacy mod... the hex rod that I posted 
previously, traversing through the center of these wheels... those brass 
carriers, also posted, with the flange, locking the cluster together and 
allowing all of the discs to slide along the hex rod... then that assembly 
is mounted to the legacy router carriage and projects just a bit above the 
Legacy lead screw and a bit away from the machine so the cluster has the 
necessary clearance while traveling left and right... note the rubbing 
wheel bearing mounted to a piece of bar steel, as in the photo... this 
bearing setup would be attached to the Legacy router bed, as low as 
possible, and of course, be adjustable left and right, so any wheel pattern 
could be used... this project might just motivate me to look into an 
inexpensive, 3D, drawing program... later guys... Joe


>

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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

at ease!... AT EASE!... let's step back from this for a moment!... LOL!... 
first comes some very important design considerations... would first need 
to know what might be the diameter of the  "wave" discs... as the size of 
the piece you are working on increases, I would think the diameter of the 
discs would increase... this isn't a watch cover or very small vase-type 
piece being worked on here, which is what a lot of rose engine lathes and 
ornamental lathes are used for... the intended use is to have the 
capability to work on long pieces(perhaps up to 72"?), and larger diameter 
pieces(up to 9", perhaps?)… so the wave discs need to be re-sized, 
proportionately... the diameter of the discs will indicate and dictate the 
position of where the cluster of wave pattern wheels will mount(or perhaps 
just one wheel at a time, but still need to consider the overall 
diameter)... I am thinking it would be mounted to the Legacy router 
carriage, positioned above the Legacy lead screw, but also outward, towards 
the operator of the machine, as you would want the follower "rub" pin to be 
on a horizontal plane with the carriage, as low as possible, so the rubbing 
action is at the 9 and 3 o'clock position, in line with the center of the 
wave wheel... are you guys writing this down?... there will be a follow-up 
test next week!... LOL!... what needs to be discussed and worked out is 
what might be the number of repeats anyone would want on a typical 
workpiece of the large scale we are considering here... for example, a 7" 
diameter, wood piece has a circumference of 22"... so how many "cuts" is 
desirable into that 22"... 4?...24?... 48?... we have to remember that we 
are working on wood here, and the beautiful patterns that you can achieve 
on a rose engine lathe, on the back of a gold watch cover, are most likely 
not attainable with a set up that is being designed here for the Legacy... 
point being, in this long winded conversation, is all the parameters need 
to be re-designed to better suit what would work on the Legacy... and that 
comes first before any shafts, bearing carriers, collars, etc., etc. can be 
purchased, welded together and assembled... perhaps some out there in 
Legacy-Land can chime in, and offer some suggestions and ideas... to bad we 
all pissed off upper management at Legacy... I would have liked to have 
heard their thoughts, and possible suggestions, on what is being 
contemplated hear... and perhaps someone has a 3D drawing program that they 
could lay out the idea being discussed here for a better understanding... 
find a nice photo of a rose engine wheel cluster and transpose it onto a 
Legacy... have seen it done all the time on facebook!... LOL!... Joe

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RE: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

[Patrick]

Looks great Joe!  Let us know when you finish it! J

 

Patrick

 

From: 'joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills 
 
Sent: Friday, December 7, 2018 2:04 PM
To: Legacy Ornamental Mills 
Subject: Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

 

well, spent some time on the computer... it's a bit crazy and complex out there 
in regards to splined shafts and linear bearings... with all the 3D printers 
and other equipment using linear motion, it's a problem(at least it is for 
me!...LOL!) to sort through it all... but I did find something that is simple, 
and most likely inexpensive... it is not a linear bearing, in that, it is not a 
ball bearing... but for the speed that is being considered here, this setup 
might do... with the added bonus of being the least expensive option 
available(I am assuming!)… a splined shaft, with a bronze bearing that has a 
mounting flange... the bronze bearing matches the splines on the shaft to 
transfer the rotational load/power... I could see a "wave" pattern 
wheel(perhaps made from aluminum, cut on a laser or water jet), approximately 
1/4' thick, that easily bolts to the flange on the bronze bearing... perhaps 
even a series of wheels bolted together, much like you see on a rose engine 
lathe... but one at a time can work, as well, as a start... a chain sprocket 
bolted to each end of the splined shaft(each end, so the rotational load is 
evenly applied to the splined shaft, thus eliminating any rotational twisting 
or flexing, in the shaft or the Legacy lead screw)… matching chain sprockets on 
each end of the Legacy lead screw... necessary bracketry to hold this new, 
splined shaft above and away from the legacy lead screw, and allowing the 
proper clearance needed for the pattern wheels... necessary chain to link the 
sprockets together, with tensioners so there is hopefully little to no 
backlash... so, we now have rotational power, transferred to a "carriage" of 
wheels that would be locked into the Legacy router carriage, and thus moving 
left and right as the Legacy carriage moves left and right... NOW THAT WASN'T 
SO DIFFICULT, NOW WAS IT!... LOL!... I see the McMaster-Carr company declaring 
a profit should this mod ever be completed!(bearings, shaft collars to hold the 
bearings, brackets, etc., etc.)… well, that's it for now... hopefully anyone 
who has an interest in the project will chime in and offer any comments or 
suggestions, before I spend what little is left of my kids inheritance!, on yet 
another Legacy mod... hope I have some red spray paint left over!

 

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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

hey Curt!... Bill's setup is an excellent setup/attachment for the 
Legacy... and the cable idea is interesting... the Sears router/crafter 
works with a similar design, a cable that takes linear motion and transfers 
it to a rotational motion... the cable would need to be quite long and 
there would be a number of pulleys... not sure if I would totally trust 
such a long cable not stretching out at times... also, with a good amount 
of spring tension on the cable(as the Sears piece has), would that 
prematurely put added wear on the Legacy split nut... and the slightest bit 
of a bind would throw the timing off as the spring would allow some linear 
motion without any rotational motion... I have worked with the Sears piece 
extensively(it's what kick started me doing the finials!... LOL!), and this 
was always an issue... you had to use your hand to apply back pressure to 
the carriage so that the cable would not "de-tension" itself if there were 
some king of snag... but it is definitely an idea  worth exploring... 
thanks... Joe


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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

well, spent some time on the computer... it's a bit crazy and complex out 
there in regards to splined shafts and linear bearings... with all the 3D 
printers and other equipment using linear motion, it's a problem(at least 
it is for me!...LOL!) to sort through it all... but I did find something 
that is simple, and most likely inexpensive... it is not a linear bearing, 
in that, it is not a ball bearing... but for the speed that is being 
considered here, this setup might do... with the added bonus of being the 
least expensive option available(I am assuming!)… a splined shaft, with a 
bronze bearing that has a mounting flange... the bronze bearing matches the 
splines on the shaft to transfer the rotational load/power... I could see a 
"wave" pattern wheel(perhaps made from aluminum, cut on a laser or water 
jet), approximately 1/4' thick, that easily bolts to the flange on the 
bronze bearing... perhaps even a series of wheels bolted together, much 
like you see on a rose engine lathe... but one at a time can work, as well, 
as a start... a chain sprocket bolted to each end of the splined shaft(each 
end, so the rotational load is evenly applied to the splined shaft, thus 
eliminating any rotational twisting or flexing, in the shaft or the Legacy 
lead screw)… matching chain sprockets on each end of the Legacy lead 
screw... necessary bracketry to hold this new, splined shaft above and away 
from the legacy lead screw, and allowing the proper clearance needed for 
the pattern wheels... necessary chain to link the sprockets together, with 
tensioners so there is hopefully little to no backlash... so, we now have 
rotational power, transferred to a "carriage" of wheels that would be 
locked into the Legacy router carriage, and thus moving left and right as 
the Legacy carriage moves left and right... NOW THAT WASN'T SO DIFFICULT, 
NOW WAS IT!... LOL!... I see the McMaster-Carr company declaring a profit 
should this mod ever be completed!(bearings, shaft collars to hold the 
bearings, brackets, etc., etc.)… well, that's it for now... hopefully 
anyone who has an interest in the project will chime in and offer any 
comments or suggestions, before I spend what little is left of my kids 
inheritance!, on yet another Legacy mod... hope I have some red spray paint 
left over!


>

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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

hey Patrick!... well you nailed it, as far as the solution that I was 
considering... splined shaft, length of the bed, perhaps a sprocket and 
chain setup down to the lead screw to give it rotational action, and a 
"wave" disc that could move along the splined shaft, with the carriage, as 
it traverses the X axis(left and right)… a pin with a bearing on it that 
would be attached to the z axis to "rub" against the wave on the disc(the 
pin and bearing would be the easy part, especially on my machine as I have 
the Y axis on linear bearings)… and you are also very correct on the 
tolerance and friction issue that would be created when using a splined 
shaft that would have a "wave" disc holder sliding on the shaft... I wonder 
if there is a linear-type bearing that could solve that issue?(i.e. a 
bearing that has a milled section to accommodate the spline on the shaft)… 
what am I planning to mill?... don't have a clue!... LOL!... but I do enjoy 
the fabrication of the accessory/mod... once that is done, I can then, 
possibly, focus on what I would want to make... and I really see only one 
pump action happening in what I would want... and that is an in-and-out 
action... for the moment(without my head exploding!...LOL!), I don't see a 
need for a pump motion on the Z axis(up-and-down)… I would intend for the 
router cutter to cut from the side(3 o'clock position), not the top(12 
o'clock position)… and, of course, this all can become a moot point, as I 
might expect a computerized machine can achieve just about any kind of 
milling action on a spindle-type piece... although that would most likely 
require a serious amount of computer, programming time... but the "joy" of 
doing it mechanically, in my opinion, is once you begin milling a piece, 
you kind of "make it up" as you go... you start doing something and  it 
turns out not quite as you originally intended...  no problem!... you 
change things up a bit on the fly!... LOL!... I might think that would be 
problematic if you were working with a computerized machine... and my 
experience has been that as you see something being created, while it is 
being made, you can often tend to change it up a bit as the three 
dimensional piece is formed before your eyes... line drawings and even 
computer 3d sketches can help, but it really comes down to the physical 
nature of the piece and the eye of the person making that piece... anyway, 
enough of the "artist" crap, let's get down to doing the mod, and then see 
what we all can make it do!... LOL!... I would like to hear any suggestions 
and/or ideas you might have, as I think your idea is the way to go... 
thanks... Joe... p.s. one other point is that once a mod like this is 
done(hopefully, successful!), there is the distinction that there is 
perhaps no other machine like it... all the ornamental mills I have ever 
seen do not have a traversing, "wave" pumping action, that can do a long 
piece, such as a piece 48" long, for example

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RE: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

[Patrick]

Hey Joe,

Yes, I was assuming a stationary carriage, for faceplate work.  I suppose you 
could run a splined jack-shaft the length of the bed, supported at both ends, 
with the driven sprocket floating on it and moving with the carriage.  Friction 
and tolerances would probably be significant issues.

I’m curious, what are you planning to mill that would need both vertical and 
horizontal wave patterns?

Patrick

 

From: 'joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills 
 
Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2018 5:50 PM
To: Legacy Ornamental Mills 
Subject: Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

 

hey Pat!... can I assume that in your variation, the router carriage is 
stationary without the ability to slide along the bed?... I would need the 
carriage to move along the X axis so various "pump" action cuts could be done 
along a spiral of some sort... so the pumping action needs to be in motion 
while the carriage is in motion... I am racking my brain on this one... I have 
done a lot of mods on my Legacy, and some that I have done the design work on 
but just don't have the time right now to execute and build... but this mod has 
me stumped to the point that I cannot get the design worked out, never mind 
what it might take to complete the actual mod to a full working stage!... I 
like the idea of coming off the end of the lead screw... the problem is how to 
transfer that motion to a X-axis moving carriage, along the full length of the 
bed... let the quest continue!... LOL!... thanks... Joe

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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['Curt George' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

 Hello Everyone.When trying to make more OT looking cuts with the Legacy, we 
have a few problems, as a matter of fact the Legacy's strongest point is also 
its weakest ONE, "the lead screw". Most OT machines do not use one.(but having 
said that,)I have had some good results with the Legacy and making OT type of 
cuts,doing some things somewhat differently then the normal router bits, type 
of cuts (things like slot cutters, side cutting,roughing end mills, diamond 
hole saws .. ) but at this time, I feel the biggest problem that I've been 
running into is the lack of a worm gear for the Legacy lead screw.
The 5/8"-4 is a very hard pitch to make a worm gear for. (I've tried, with only 
poor results so far.)  
What I've been thinking of is something like a pendulum Z axis, where the 
cutter is on the center, and the Rosette is off of the side, hooked up to a 
worm gear &,the lead screw. (sorta like a backwards and upside down Rose lathe 
on top of the Legacy.) ;-)
The pumping up and down action idea came form another time.and project that I 
tried, I still think it just might works for short / small spindles and 
face-plate work, This idea was to put a rosette on the head-stock after the 
head-stock and before the spindle.the single rosette will make a up and down 
movement of the cutter. This idea did not pan out for me. I was not able to 
control the weight of the movement.  But I did have some good results with a 
spring loaded spindle, and a rosette pushing on the spring to make a pumping 
type of cut. This was a screwy idea but it did work (somewhat.) the spindle was 
supported by a spring at both ends, the rosette was hooked to the indexing 
gear, When the rosette hit the spindle it pushed everything down, and then it 
returned back up, making a weird up and down cut, that was not uniformed from 
end to end. (I've not done a lot with this attachment.as a matter of fact, I 
scraped the idea.)
My profile follower and the "Wave attachment," have worked out well for me in 
the past, (at least I've had some success with these to attachments, although 
somewhat limited.)The concept is to move/ control the work piece rotation 
instead of the cutter's movement,simple pattern's, can be used over and over to 
make, more complex types of cuts. The biggest problem here is... trying to not 
make the spindle look to busy!
Basically what I'm saying here is, I've been trying for a while, I can show a 
1000 ways how not to do it. and only a few ways that have worked for me. But 
I'm not going give up yet. I'm having to much fun trying.Have a good night.
C.A.G.


On Thursday, December 6, 2018, 6:15:56 PM EST, Tim Krause 
 wrote:  
 
 Curt and myself have been thinking about the options to create rose engines 
cuts for a very long time.  So long that I bought a mdf rose engines myself to 
get on with actually doing the work!  More on this later.On Dec 6, 2018, at 
2:49 PM, 'joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills 
 wrote:
hey Pat!... can I assume that in your variation, the router carriage is 
stationary without the ability to slide along the bed?... I would need the 
carriage to move along the X axis so various "pump" action cuts could be done 
along a spiral of some sort... so the pumping action needs to be in motion 
while the carriage is in motion... I am racking my brain on this one... I have 
done a lot of mods on my Legacy, and some that I have done the design work on 
but just don't have the time right now to execute and build... but this mod has 
me stumped to the point that I cannot get the design worked out, never mind 
what it might take to complete the actual mod to a full working stage!... I 
like the idea of coming off the end of the lead screw... the problem is how to 
transfer that motion to a X-axis moving carriage, along the full length of the 
bed... let the quest continue!... LOL!... thanks... Joe








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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

[Tim Krause]

Curt and myself have been thinking about the options to create rose engines 
cuts for a very long time.  So long that I bought a mdf rose engines myself to 
get on with actually doing the work!  More on this later.

On Dec 6, 2018, 2:49 PM, at 2:49 PM, 'joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills 
 wrote:
>hey Pat!... can I assume that in your variation, the router carriage is
>
>stationary without the ability to slide along the bed?... I would need
>the 
>carriage to move along the X axis so various "pump" action cuts could
>be 
>done along a spiral of some sort... so the pumping action needs to be
>in 
>motion while the carriage is in motion... I am racking my brain on this
>
>one... I have done a lot of mods on my Legacy, and some that I have
>done 
>the design work on but just don't have the time right now to execute
>and 
>build... but this mod has me stumped to the point that I cannot get the
>
>design worked out, never mind what it might take to complete the actual
>mod 
>to a full working stage!... I like the idea of coming off the end of
>the 
>lead screw... the problem is how to transfer that motion to a X-axis
>moving 
>carriage, along the full length of the bed... let the quest
>continue!... 
>LOL!... thanks... Joe
>
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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

hey Pat!... can I assume that in your variation, the router carriage is 
stationary without the ability to slide along the bed?... I would need the 
carriage to move along the X axis so various "pump" action cuts could be 
done along a spiral of some sort... so the pumping action needs to be in 
motion while the carriage is in motion... I am racking my brain on this 
one... I have done a lot of mods on my Legacy, and some that I have done 
the design work on but just don't have the time right now to execute and 
build... but this mod has me stumped to the point that I cannot get the 
design worked out, never mind what it might take to complete the actual mod 
to a full working stage!... I like the idea of coming off the end of the 
lead screw... the problem is how to transfer that motion to a X-axis moving 
carriage, along the full length of the bed... let the quest continue!... 
LOL!... thanks... Joe

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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

[patrick]

Combining several ideas:
Use a variation of Tim's wave attachment 
(https://groups.google.com/d/msg/legacy-ornamental-mills/gsFab9dTSr8/h15dZQFqwEMJ)
Run the lever up to a plate on a jack-shaft instead of the leadscrew.
Connect the jack-shaft to a chain-driven Z axis (no leadscrews on Z)
You'll need a sprocket on the jack-shaft on top and another below, with a 
closed-loop chain, so it pulls up and down to minimize slop on Z.
Mount the router parallel to the longitudinal axis 
(https://ornamentalmills.com/Bill_Bulkeley/revo_side_mount/index.html)

No, I haven't built this, just combining ideas from previous posts.

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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

hey Curt!... not surprised you have thought of this mod in the past... from 
what I can tell, you seem to always have "Legacy" on your mind!... LOL!... 
anyway, I would think the "pumping" action of the z axis would be better if 
it was in-and-out, rather than up-and-down... an in-and-out motion would 
allow using side cutting bits, which also opens the door for using a lot of 
different router bits, as well as grinding your own, custom profiles... 
from what I have seen on videos, the rose engine lathes use this same 
technique... that is, cutting from the side... if you cut from the top(or 
12 o'clock position), you are severely limiting yourself to the type of 
router bit you could use... unless you had some other idea in mind with the 
z axis going up and down... I would like to think that with all the talent 
in this group, something could possibly be designed and made that was 
functional, affordable(to a degree!...LOL!) and easily understandable... 
maybe not exactly like what a rose engine lathe could do, but close enough 
that it would expand what a Legacy could do... thanks... joe


>

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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

okay, driving home last night(1 3/4 hours!), came to the conclusion that a 
long length of a "wave" pattern for the z axis is not going to work... it 
would work when doing spindles, but not when the z axis was stationary and 
indexed cuts were desired... and to consider having one set of "rosettes" 
set up when doing spindle work and another when the z axis is in one, set 
position is not ideally desired either, at least in my opinion... too many 
setups, brackets, etc. … although it might be a considerable option, if an 
all around setup cannot be designed and made... so it's back to the drawing 
board, as the saying goes... I think Mike's idea of pumping the Z axis is 
spot on and the easiest way to achieve this mod... the problem now is how 
to get it to work in perfect unison with the lead screw, with no back 
lash... always impressed with Mike's solutions and jigs, i'll be interested 
to see what he might come up with for this... no pressure Mike!, LOL!... 
later... Joe


>

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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['Curt George' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

 Hello guys!this has been one of the pet "dream projects" for a long time.
Joe I think your counter weighted Z Axis just might be a good call for getting 
a Z axis/ Rosetta follower to work on the Legacy.  The problems that Ive run 
into is weight,and or gravity of the Z axis and the Rosetta's.
Keep thinking about this Joe, and Mike. Just perhaps???   Anything is possible. 
 ;-)
C.A.G.
On Wednesday, December 5, 2018, 5:37:18 PM EST, 'joe biunno' via Legacy 
Ornamental Mills  wrote:  
 
 heading home now Mike, so I don't have much time to respond here, right now... 
but I will say if there is even the slightest chance of a "slip" in the timing 
and coordination of all that is happening with all of those pulleys, I would 
not feel comfortable doing a job a possibly having it ruined because a belt 
slipped, even 1/8 of an inch... i'll digest some of this tonight and give a 
better response tomorrow... again, many thanks for your input, please keep it 
coming... Joe

 

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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

heading home now Mike, so I don't have much time to respond here, right 
now... but I will say if there is even the slightest chance of a "slip" in 
the timing and coordination of all that is happening with all of those 
pulleys, I would not feel comfortable doing a job a possibly having it 
ruined because a belt slipped, even 1/8 of an inch... i'll digest some of 
this tonight and give a better response tomorrow... again, many thanks for 
your input, please keep it coming... Joe

 

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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

[Okla Mike (Liltwisted)]

Z-axis will have it's own pattern to follow plunging in and out using a 
separate gear motor drive with speed control.  The same drive action 
that turns the rose pattern will also be geared to drive the carriage 
along the acme screw.  The carriage will crawl down the rod of it's own 
power that way and the plunge spaces will be accurate.  then index for 
the next path and do the length again.  Now if you want to spiral the 
cut, all you have to do is get a large pulley on the main spindle shaft, 
another pulley to round the corner and clamp a cable to the carriage.  
That way as the carriage crawls up the rod, it will turn the stock as 
well.  Different main pulley size will change the pitch.  Haven't 
thought completely through it but you get my drift.


Mike OK


On 12/5/2018 4:06 PM, 'joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills wrote:
hey Mike... that's an interesting idea... but I want to be sure I am 
understanding it correctly... are you saying that you would clamp a 
pattern of some sort, that would have a repeating "wave" type cut 
along it's entire length(presumably the full length of what that 
Legacy could fit between centers), and this pattern is clamped in 
front of a spring-loaded Z-axis that would have a follower, 
roller-type pin... the pin follows the wave pattern, thus producing 
the "pumping" action of the router bit cutter going in and out... it 
seems you could still do straight or spiral, fluting or reeding… not 
thinking this all the way through yet, but if that is what you are 
referring to, that sounds like a great idea!... so, instead of 
"roundish" rosette-type wheels(as on a typical rose engine lathe), you 
would have long strips with wave patterns on them... am I missing any 
booby traps?... LOL!... thanks for the input Mike!... Joe





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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

hey Mike... that's an interesting idea... but I want to be sure I am 
understanding it correctly... are you saying that you would clamp a pattern 
of some sort, that would have a repeating "wave" type cut along it's entire 
length(presumably the full length of what that Legacy could fit between 
centers), and this pattern is clamped in front of a spring-loaded Z-axis 
that would have a follower, roller-type pin... the pin follows the wave 
pattern, thus producing the "pumping" action of the router bit cutter going 
in and out... it seems you could still do straight or spiral, fluting or 
reeding… not thinking this all the way through yet, but if that is what you 
are referring to, that sounds like a great idea!... so, instead of 
"roundish" rosette-type wheels(as on a typical rose engine lathe), you 
would have long strips with wave patterns on them... am I missing any booby 
traps?... LOL!... thanks for the input Mike!... Joe


>
>
>

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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

[Okla Mike (Liltwisted)]

Those are all good points

I would not be trying to move the centers.  What I would do is give the 
pumping, pattern following motion to the z axis.  Then I would have a 
"walker" that would be able to use the acme threaded rod as a way to 
continue the pattern down a long length.  So for just something to think 
about and a different way to look at it, there you go.


Mike OK


On 12/5/2018 2:28 PM, 'joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills wrote:
hi Curt and Tom... Curt, you are correct... it was the MADE lathe that 
I saw in the video and when I viewed the website I saw the pricing 
info... ouch!... and Tom, totally agree... a lot of what is there is 
totally for looking, much like a Holzapfel is today... not to insult 
those that actually put a MADE lathe to work, whether it be for 
business or pleasure... couple of things I find interesting... I 
always see a rose engine lathe(and sometimes an ornamental lathe) 
working from a faceplate only, never between centers... for obvious 
reasons, of course, because how would you get a headstock and a 
tailstock to "rock" in unison... but then, there lies the challenge... 
can an setup be made to work like a rose engine lathe and it's design 
of a rocking motion, but with a head stock and a tail stock, so longer 
spindle work could be done?... and could a Legacy be the starting 
point of such a setup?... I have given this some thought lately, and 
some ideas and designs have crossed my mind but it leads most times to 
practically building an entirely new machine from scratch, and thus 
the Legacy machine has no initial, startup advantage... I mean, what 
is the uniqueness of making a rose engine lathe, when it has already 
been done, as you pointed out with the link to the person making one 
using MDF... I personally enjoy making all kinds of accessories and 
mods for machinery, and especially enjoy working on the Legacy in that 
regard, but also like to do them in such a way that it becomes a 
selling point down the road... and it being very user friendly is the 
most important thing... again, so there is the possibility that others 
can use it without instruction, since the expectation is that I am not 
going to be around at that point!... LOL!... as intense and imposing 
my oversized Legacy is, I do believe anyone from this group would have 
an easy time running and operating it... it works like any other 
legacy does, it's just bigger... so the challenge would be, to make a 
simplified rose-engine type lathe, that could do longer spindle work 
and using a Legacy machine as a starting point... should be easy 
enough!.. LOL!... joe b.



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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

hi Curt and Tom... Curt, you are correct... it was the MADE lathe that I 
saw in the video and when I viewed the website I saw the pricing info... 
ouch!... and Tom, totally agree... a lot of what is there is totally for 
looking, much like a Holzapfel is today... not to insult those that 
actually put a MADE lathe to work, whether it be for business or 
pleasure... couple of things I find interesting... I always see a rose 
engine lathe(and sometimes an ornamental lathe) working from a faceplate 
only, never between centers... for obvious reasons, of course, because how 
would you get a headstock and a tailstock to "rock" in unison... but then, 
there lies the challenge... can an setup be made to work like a rose engine 
lathe and it's design of a rocking motion, but with a head stock and a tail 
stock, so longer spindle work could be done?... and could a Legacy be the 
starting point of such a setup?... I have given this some thought lately, 
and some ideas and designs have crossed my mind but it leads most times to 
practically building an entirely new machine from scratch, and thus the 
Legacy machine has no initial, startup advantage... I mean, what is the 
uniqueness of making a rose engine lathe, when it has already been done, as 
you pointed out with the link to the person making one using MDF... I 
personally enjoy making all kinds of accessories and mods for machinery, 
and especially enjoy working on the Legacy in that regard, but also like to 
do them in such a way that it becomes a selling point down the road... and 
it being very user friendly is the most important thing... again, so there 
is the possibility that others can use it without instruction, since the 
expectation is that I am not going to be around at that point!... LOL!... 
as intense and imposing my oversized Legacy is, I do believe anyone from 
this group would have an easy time running and operating it... it works 
like any other legacy does, it's just bigger... so the challenge would be, 
to make a simplified rose-engine type lathe, that could do longer spindle 
work and using a Legacy machine as a starting point... should be easy 
enough!.. LOL!... joe b.


>>

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RE: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

[Bill Bulkeley]

Hi tom I remember looking at that 
http://www.whidbeyworks.com/root/MDF_Rose_Engine.html I think it’s the same one

 

Always meant to look into it. Thanks for the info for me anyway

 

Bill 

 

From: legacy-ornamental-mills@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:legacy-ornamental-mills@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Dotta
Sent: Thursday, 6 December 2018 6:09 AM
To: legacy-ornamental-mills@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

 

Hi Joe Curt Tim & Bill

 

Your mention of ornamental machines and high costs, which are surely there for 
the best of the best which are so drop dead gorgeous and rare they justify the 
price if only to admire. I think of them as works of art surely on a par with 
some of the old masters which no one expects to do anything but be beautiful. 

I know from reading posts for several years that any of you guys are more than 
capable of making a functional ornamental lathe so let me give you the name of 
an ornamental turner who has a mission of bringing the satisfaction of 
ornamental work to the less than wealthy woodturner.  I believe he not only has 
plans available but possibly some kits mostly made from low cost MDF that 
actually produce quality work. The gentleman is Jon Magill and his lathe design 
is generally known as the MDF Rose Engine.

Some names of outstanding makers past and present makers  Holtzapffel, Bower, 
Goyen, Evans, Made, Lindow, Newton

 

Hope this helps  Cheers  Tom Dotta

 

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 6:36 AM 'Curt George' via Legacy Ornamental Mills 
 wrote:

Hello Joe.

Awesome video. the Made lathe is most likely what you saw,  
https://madelathe.com/  This the lathe for the Kings! (Way above my price 
range!)

https://lindowmachineworks.com/ Makes a cheaper model. (Not cheap, but cheaper 
then the Made lathe.)  

 

NEAT STUFF !

 I am glad you are well.

talk to your latter.

 

C.A.G.

 

On Tuesday, December 4, 2018, 1:24:52 PM EST, 'joe biunno' via Legacy 
Ornamental Mills  wrote: 

 

 

been playing on the computer today, researching the rose engine lathe... 
updating myself on the one company(it seems!) that makes a rose engine lathe... 
and nearly fell over when I saw the price(and not sure if it is an updated 
price!)… $83,500 ! … and you could easily spend another $50,000 on 
accessories … WOW!... no doubt, it is an incredible piece of equipment and 
superbly made... like a customer once said to me after I gave them an estimate, 
"but the price!"... LOL... but then it occurred to me, will computer driven 
equipment make it obsolete?... what about 3D printers?, that are getting more 
sophisticated every day as well as more affordable to the general public... can 
either do what the rose engine lathe can do?... about the only thing I can 
think of, that a Legacy would have an advantage over any of those three 
methods(rose lathe, computer carving or 3D printing) is it's large capacity 
ability(and affordability!)... would love to find the time to explore a 
"rocking" type motion for the Legacy headstock and tailstock(in unison, of 
course)… but how to have a rocking motion and still have it connected to the 
gear train(and thus, the lead screw), is the dilemma... oh well, just some 
random thoughts today... hope everyone is doing well... been following the 
posts but just a bit hectic the past nine months or so... joe b. 

 

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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

[Tom Dotta]

Hi Joe Curt Tim & Bill

Your mention of ornamental machines and high costs, which are surely there
for the best of the best which are so drop dead gorgeous and rare they
justify the price if only to admire. I think of them as works of art surely
on a par with some of the old masters which no one expects to do anything
but be beautiful.
I know from reading posts for several years that any of you guys are more
than capable of making a functional ornamental lathe so let me give you the
name of an ornamental turner who has a mission of bringing the satisfaction
of ornamental work to the less than wealthy woodturner.  I believe he not
only has plans available but possibly some kits mostly made from low cost
MDF that actually produce quality work. The gentleman is Jon Magill and his
lathe design is generally known as the MDF Rose Engine.
Some names of outstanding makers past and present makers  Holtzapffel,
Bower, Goyen, Evans, Made, Lindow, Newton

Hope this helps  Cheers  Tom Dotta

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 6:36 AM 'Curt George' via Legacy Ornamental Mills <
legacy-ornamental-mills@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Hello Joe.
> Awesome video. the Made lathe is most likely what you saw,
> https://madelathe.com/  This the lathe for the Kings! (Way above my price
> range!)
> https://lindowmachineworks.com/ Makes a cheaper model. (Not cheap, but
> cheaper then the Made lathe.)
>
> NEAT STUFF !
>  I am glad you are well.
> talk to your latter.
>
> C.A.G.
>
> On Tuesday, December 4, 2018, 1:24:52 PM EST, 'joe biunno' via Legacy
> Ornamental Mills  wrote:
>
>
> been playing on the computer today, researching the rose engine lathe...
> updating myself on the one company(it seems!) that makes a rose engine
> lathe... and nearly fell over when I saw the price(and not sure if it is an
> updated price!)… $83,500 ! … and you could easily spend another $50,000
> on accessories … WOW!... no doubt, it is an incredible piece of
> equipment and superbly made... like a customer once said to me after I gave
> them an estimate, "but the price!"... LOL... but then it occurred to me,
> will computer driven equipment make it obsolete?... what about 3D
> printers?, that are getting more sophisticated every day as well as more
> affordable to the general public... can either do what the rose engine
> lathe can do?... about the only thing I can think of, that a Legacy would
> have an advantage over any of those three methods(rose lathe, computer
> carving or 3D printing) is it's large capacity ability(and
> affordability!)... would love to find the time to explore a "rocking" type
> motion for the Legacy headstock and tailstock(in unison, of course)… but
> how to have a rocking motion and still have it connected to the gear
> train(and thus, the lead screw), is the dilemma... oh well, just some
> random thoughts today... hope everyone is doing well... been following the
> posts but just a bit hectic the past nine months or so... joe b.
>
>
> --
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> "Legacy Ornamental Mills" group.
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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['Curt George' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

 Hello Joe.Awesome video. the Made lathe is most likely what you saw,  
https://madelathe.com/  This the lathe for the Kings! (Way above my price 
range!)https://lindowmachineworks.com/ Makes a cheaper model. (Not cheap, but 
cheaper then the Made lathe.)  

NEAT STUFF ! I am glad you are well.talk to your latter.
C.A.G.
On Tuesday, December 4, 2018, 1:24:52 PM EST, 'joe biunno' via Legacy 
Ornamental Mills  wrote:  
 
 been playing on the computer today, researching the rose engine lathe... 
updating myself on the one company(it seems!) that makes a rose engine lathe... 
and nearly fell over when I saw the price(and not sure if it is an updated 
price!)… $83,500 ! … and you could easily spend another $50,000 on 
accessories … WOW!... no doubt, it is an incredible piece of equipment and 
superbly made... like a customer once said to me after I gave them an estimate, 
"but the price!"... LOL... but then it occurred to me, will computer driven 
equipment make it obsolete?... what about 3D printers?, that are getting more 
sophisticated every day as well as more affordable to the general public... can 
either do what the rose engine lathe can do?... about the only thing I can 
think of, that a Legacy would have an advantage over any of those three 
methods(rose lathe, computer carving or 3D printing) is it's large capacity 
ability(and affordability!)... would love to find the time to explore a 
"rocking" type motion for the Legacy headstock and tailstock(in unison, of 
course)… but how to have a rocking motion and still have it connected to the 
gear train(and thus, the lead screw), is the dilemma... oh well, just some 
random thoughts today... hope everyone is doing well... been following the 
posts but just a bit hectic the past nine months or so... joe b. 





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Re: ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

been playing on the computer today, researching the rose engine lathe... 
updating myself on the one company(it seems!) that makes a rose engine 
lathe... and nearly fell over when I saw the price(and not sure if it is an 
updated price!)… $83,500 ! … and you could easily spend another $50,000 
on accessories … WOW!... no doubt, it is an incredible piece of 
equipment and superbly made... like a customer once said to me after I gave 
them an estimate, "but the price!"... LOL... but then it occurred to me, 
will computer driven equipment make it obsolete?... what about 3D 
printers?, that are getting more sophisticated every day as well as more 
affordable to the general public... can either do what the rose engine 
lathe can do?... about the only thing I can think of, that a Legacy would 
have an advantage over any of those three methods(rose lathe, computer 
carving or 3D printing) is it's large capacity ability(and 
affordability!)... would love to find the time to explore a "rocking" type 
motion for the Legacy headstock and tailstock(in unison, of course)… but 
how to have a rocking motion and still have it connected to the gear 
train(and thus, the lead screw), is the dilemma... oh well, just some 
random thoughts today... hope everyone is doing well... been following the 
posts but just a bit hectic the past nine months or so... joe b. 

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ornamental turning on a rose engine lathe video

['joe biunno' via Legacy Ornamental Mills]

https://www.facebook.com/interestingengineering/videos/1567378136665218/ … 
saw this excellent video on facebook today and thought I would share... 
nothing new, as I am sure most, if not all, of us have seen a rose engine 
lathe in operation before... of course, it all starts with having the right 
equipment, in this case a rose engine lathe... not sure if anyone on the 
planet is producing a lathe of this type in today's timeline, but then 
again, if there is, what would the cost be for such a complex piece of 
equipment... but it is inspiring to think "what if" the Legacy could be 
modified to do work that was the same or similar to a rose engine lathe? … 
I do believe this subject has been discussed in the group in the past, but 
not with this video... the artisan is exceptional and is worth looking at 
some of his other videos on you tube... "G Phil Poirier" is the artisan

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