date:20170216

Talking about the Quotes and where they belong, I checked that my name 
is still wrong[1]. In Latin America we have two last names: The first is 
from the (first) last name of your father and the second is from (first) 
last name of your mother. So, my name Is: Offray Luna Cárdenas.


[1] http://leoeditor.com/testimonials.html#offray-cardenas-luna

Cheers,

Offray

Ps: Some times we have also two first names (like me) which makes things 
even more complicated :-P.


On 16/02/17 18:09, lewis wrote:

Hi,

Re: Indeed, theLearn why Leo is special 
 link on Leo's home 
page contains all the quotes.


Very nice! A place to go and enjoy all the stories of how Leo changed 
the way they approach things.



Re: Here's a radical idea.  Put all the intro stuff on a single page, 
like the org mode intro. Removing the quotes makes this more practical.


Yes! I enjoyed the org mode intro as well. Leo's introduction will 
also be a joy to read. \o/


Indeed it is a great discussion.

Regards
Lewis
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Re: Org Mode: Learning on demand


Hi,


On 16/02/17 18:09, Edward K. Ream wrote:
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas 
> wrote:


I would like Leo interactive documentation to be as easy to browse
as Org's and to point to the external world (and of course search
and privacy friendly).


Worthy goals.  I'm not sure when it will happen, given all the other 
tempting things on hand at present.


I think the guideline should be: if you want it, you should give it a 
try.  I truly would appreciate help with docs, or any other project.




I will try to help, once interactive documentation is enabled (Org, Pyzo 
or other way alike). ATM outline interactive documentation is too 
engaging to leave it for non-interactive one. But I can imagine myself 
helping with writing interactive documentation to introduce newbies to 
Leo (as I did with my students years ago) and with co-designing the 
Leo's future with the community meanwhile.


Cheers,

Offray

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Re: Org Mode: Learning on demand

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <
off...@riseup.net> wrote:

I would like Leo interactive documentation to be as easy to browse as Org's
> and to point to the external world (and of course search and privacy
> friendly).
>

Worthy goals.  I'm not sure when it will happen, given all the other
tempting things on hand at present.

I think the guideline should be: if you want it, you should give it a try.
I truly would appreciate help with docs, or any other project.

Edward

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Re: Please review Leo's new 10-minute intro

2017-02-16 Thread lewis

Hi,

Re: Indeed, the Learn why Leo is special 
 link on Leo's home page 
contains all the quotes.

Very nice! A place to go and enjoy all the stories of how Leo changed the 
way they approach things.


Re: Here's a radical idea.  Put all the intro stuff on a single page, like 
the org mode intro. Removing the quotes makes this more practical.

Yes! I enjoyed the org mode intro as well. Leo's introduction will also be 
a joy to read. \o/

Indeed it is a great discussion.

Regards
Lewis

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Re: Please review Leo's new 10-minute intro

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 3:52 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <
off...@riseup.net> wrote:

I think there is a lot of power in cross-pollination of ideas
> .
>

Imo, this is where almost all innovation happens, and why ideas tend to be
invented by multiple people almost simultaneously. It's also why I don't
care whether I get any credit for my ideas.

> 
> I wonder if I'm talking too much about Grafoscopio, in a Leo related
> list...

No worries. It's all part of the cross pollination.

Edward

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Re: Leo vs org mode

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 4:22 PM, 'Terry Brown' via leo-editor <
leo-editor@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> I guess I wonder which tasks can currently only be accomplished with org
> mode, and not Leo.
>
> I thought Leo had recently acquired support for multiple source
> languages?  Or are you talking about executing, not syntax highlighting?
>

Correct. Leo needs to support, C, C#, C++, Java, etc.


>
> A good table editor would be nice, it should read/write from
> markdown/rst/latex/html.  I suspect there's been at least one iteration of
> such a thing, in the distant past. If I had an urgent need to edit tables
> in Leo, I'd probably edit them in the richtext plugin (CKEditor) and script
> the results to whatever format I wanted.
>

Thanks for this tip.  Still, I think we have to follow org-mode's way on
this.


>
> The rest of it would be easier to evaluate in terms tasks made easier /
> possible.
>
> In terms of user base, I think we all agree Leo has multiple potential
> audiences. Emacs users will very techy people, generally.
>

I have a bit of Jupyter envy in me :-)

Edward

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Re: commands to move to next file in 'file edit list'?

2017-02-16 Thread 'Terry Brown' via leo-editor

I think Ctrl-PgDn, Ctrl-PgUp also work, I think most web browsers use those?
Cheers -Terry
On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 4:49:28 PM UTC, Edward K. Ream wrote:


On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 5:43 AM, jkn  wrote:


If I have multiple files open in Leo, so multiple 'file tabs' at the top of the 
window, are there commands that would allow me to switch from one file to 
another?

As discussed, Ctrl-Tab (a standard binding) does this.

If you are interested, there are also programmatic ways of switching tabs.

Edward

Thanks Edward
    now that I have been pointed at the name of the underlying commands I will 
take a look at the key bindings.

Interestingly (to me), although Ctrl-T seems somewhat of a 'standard' for 
moving tabs, I have never used it. Other editors use Shift-Right, for 
instance

    Regards
    Jon

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Re: Leo vs org mode

2017-02-16 Thread 'Terry Brown' via leo-editor

I guess I wonder which tasks can currently only be accomplished with org mode, 
and not Leo.
I thought Leo had recently acquired support for multiple source languages?  Or 
are you talking about executing, not syntax highlighting?
A good table editor would be nice, it should read/write from 
markdown/rst/latex/html.  I suspect there's been at least one iteration of such 
a thing, in the distant past. If I had an urgent need to edit tables in Leo, 
I'd probably edit them in the richtext plugin (CKEditor) and script the results 
to whatever format I wanted. 
The rest of it would be easier to evaluate in terms tasks made easier / 
possible.
In terms of user base, I think we all agree Leo has multiple potential 
audiences. Emacs users will very techy people, generally.
Cheers -Terry

  From: Edward K. Ream 
 To: leo-editor  
 Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:47 PM
 Subject: Leo vs org mode
   
A brief comparison of Leo and org mode.

Org mode has these strengths:

- Drawers: visible, pure text, easily extensible uA's.
- Agendas and tables.
- In-pane rendering of Latex and special symbols.
- Support for multiple source languages, including shell scripts, C, etc.
- Code blocks, with arguments.
- Result blocks.

Leo will have all of the above this year. Leo has its own strengths:

- Automatic tangling when saving files.
- @others, missing from org mode's noweb markup.
- Untangling: automatic update of @file nodes. Completely missing from org mode.
  In essence, all org mode files are @nosent files.
- Importers. There are importers, but apparently none for programming languages.
- Clones and especially clone-find commands.
- API: org mode does have a hacking api. It's oriented towards parsing body 
text.
- DOM: org mode simulates a DOM with filters. Org mode data is fundamentally 
text.
- Python scripting, including a python plugin architecture.

There may be more ;-)

Conclusion: It may still be true, in some limited areas, that Leo can do things 
that can even be thought in org mode.  However, that statement is no longer 
generally true, and I'll remove it from all future documentation.

All additions and corrections welcome.

Edward
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Re: Please review Leo's new 10-minute intro

Hi,

On 16/02/17 17:04, Edward K. Ream wrote:

[...]

Another idea: use markdown instead of rST
,
and (maybe) purge the discussion of rST from the intro. The great
advantage of markdown is that it is html behind the scenes, so things
like flowing text around graphics can be done easily. Also, a simple
script, found in LeoDocs.leo, creates markdown TOCs automatically. No
need for the rst3 command at all.

I'm in favor of markdown also. Particularly Pandoc's markdown flavor
[1]. It brings the simplicity and ubiquity of markdown and adds
extensibility via Yaml and parsers, hackeable in several languages
(including Python, of course).
I'm writing Grafoscopio Manual, as an interactive Grafoscopio notebook,
using Pandoc. These are early alphas in native format[2], markdown[3]
and PDF[4], of what can be done and seem a sensible approach to Leo.

[1] http://pandoc.org/
[2] http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/grafoscopio/artifact/a86a41e66543e86f
[3]
http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/grafoscopio/artifact/72ac90e809fd5998b7abd79d71e45b703c534914?txt=1
[4]
http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/grafoscopio/raw/Docs/En/Books/Manual/manual.pdf?name=e1897649dcd2109aa46dc9caea846c8b0b4909e0

This is a great discussion we are having.

I agree :-).

Offray

Ps: Markdown is easier to type because doesn't require underlining like
reST and is less sensible to white space.

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Re: Org Mode: Learning on demand


Hi,


On 16/02/17 16:54, Edward K. Ream wrote:

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 3:14:33 PM UTC-6, Edward K. Ream wrote:

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 10:47:01 AM UTC-6, Offray
Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:

...

[The process] seemed more like reading a map and finding where
I was and then
finding my way to my intended destination [than] reading the
manual.
That "path" is now with me, next time I need to reach similar
places.


Seems like an excellent analogy. Reading docs sucks ;-)


This discussion about documentation has been fruitful. Reinhard's 
observation that we mostly use docs as references is right on target.  
Some further thoughts:


1. No matter how good long docs are, it is rare that people will read 
them even once carefully.  After that, we just want answers to 
specific questions.


Agreed.



2. When is the last time you used an index or table of contents?  We 
use google for /everything/ now.  Does it really matter how docs are 
organized?  Maybe the very first time...


3. This suggests that we should (no kidding) start paying attention to 
optimizing google searches on our docs.


In short, google is a highly disruptive technology as far as docs are 
concerned. This is a new thought today.  Not sure what to do with it...




Yesterday was the last time I used index (the interactive one of Org 
Mode documentation) and all the process I described about looking for 
videos, watching them and finding my way into a memorable task was made 
without Google (the search related parts were done with DuckDuckGo, and 
the videos were wrapped in the DDG viewer instead of SPAMware YouTube). 
I think that we need to be searchable, browsable and readable from the 
web, but hopefully in a world were search and google (and Big Brother!) 
are not synonyms.


I would like Leo interactive documentation to be as easy to browse as 
Org's and to point to the external world (and of course search and 
privacy friendly).


Cheers,

Offray


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My dear, here we must run as fast as we can...

“My dear, here we must run as fast as we can, just to stay in place. And if 
you wish to go anywhere you must run twice as fast as that.”-- Lewis 
Carroll, Alice in Wonderland.

Pretty much sums up my state of mind these days.  It's the best state of 
mind there is.  Thanks to all of you for your contributions.

Edward

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Re: commands to move to next file in 'file edit list'?

2017-02-16 Thread jkn



On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 4:49:28 PM UTC, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 5:43 AM, jkn  > wrote:
>
>>
>> If I have multiple files open in Leo, so multiple 'file tabs' at the top 
>> of the window, are there commands that would allow me to switch from one 
>> file to another?
>>
>
> As discussed, Ctrl-Tab (a standard binding) does this.
>
> If you are interested, there are also programmatic ways of switching tabs.
>
> Edward
>

Thanks Edward
now that I have been pointed at the name of the underlying commands I 
will take a look at the key bindings.

Interestingly (to me), although Ctrl-T seems somewhat of a 'standard' for 
moving tabs, I have never used it. Other editors use Shift-Right, for 
instance

Regards
Jon

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Re: Please review Leo's new 10-minute intro

On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 5:51:51 PM UTC-6, lewis wrote:

After clicking 'Learn about Leo in 10 minutes' the first thing I read are 
> quotes about Leo. This is a distraction and quite *annoying clutter.*
>

The more I think about this, the more I think you may be right. Indeed, the 
Learn why Leo is special  
link on Leo's home page contains all the quotes.

Here's a radical idea.  Put all the intro stuff on a single page, like the 
org mode intro. Removing the quotes makes this more practical.

Another idea: use markdown instead of rST 
,

and (maybe) purge the discussion of rST from the intro. The great advantage 
of markdown is that it is html behind the scenes, so things like flowing 
text around graphics can be done easily.  Also, a simple script, found in 
LeoDocs.leo, creates markdown TOCs automatically. No need for the rst3 
command at all.

This is a great discussion we are having.

Edward

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Re: Org Mode: Learning on demand

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 3:14:33 PM UTC-6, Edward K. Ream wrote:

> On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 10:47:01 AM UTC-6, Offray Vladimir Luna 
> Cárdenas wrote:
>
...

> [The process] seemed more like reading a map and finding where I was and 
>> then 
>> finding my way to my intended destination [than] reading the manual. 
>> That "path" is now with me, next time I need to reach similar places. 
>>
>
> Seems like an excellent analogy. Reading docs sucks ;-)
>

This discussion about documentation has been fruitful. Reinhard's 
observation that we mostly use docs as references is right on target.  Some 
further thoughts:

1. No matter how good long docs are, it is rare that people will read them 
even once carefully.  After that, we just want answers to specific 
questions.

2. When is the last time you used an index or table of contents?  We use 
google for *everything* now.  Does it really matter how docs are 
organized?  Maybe the very first time...

3. This suggests that we should (no kidding) start paying attention to 
optimizing google searches on our docs.

In short, google is a highly disruptive technology as far as docs are 
concerned. This is a new thought today.  Not sure what to do with it...

Your comments, please.

Edward

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Re: Please review Leo's new 10-minute intro


Hi,

It's interesting where the conversation on literate programming and the 
videos about org mode (particularly literate dev-ops) lead us. I think 
there is a lot of power in cross-pollination of ideas (so is nice to see 
agenda and tables pluging going to Leo and also the .org format 
support). I think that having first hand experience with these similar 
tools is important in design.


I want to understand better the ways Org Mode brings literate computing 
and its departures and similarities with Jupyter/ZeroMQ). In the no so 
long term, I would like to bring more languages to Grafoscopio.


Ummm... We have been talking a lot about outlining, literate computing 
and a broader scenario for our interest and tools lately. I think that's 
healthy... but I wonder if I'm talking too much about Grafoscopio, in a 
Leo related list... Anyway thanks for the inspiration (Leo and Jupyter 
has been important inspirations for my own outliner in Pharo).


Cheers,

Offray


On 16/02/17 15:07, Edward K. Ream wrote:

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 1:52 PM, rengel  wrote:


Thank you for providing this link to the excellent introduction to Org-mode! 
You are right: Taken out of context your quote is 'not light reading'. But to 
be fair, [the preceding paragraphs explains] the seemingly missing information.

A good point. I agree, the intro is very well written.
I plan to read it until it's style and documentation strategy sinks in.


The whole document looks so promising that I will give Org-mode a serious try.

As will I. Before a few weeks ago, I had no idea that org-mode was
such serious competition to Leo.

I plan to add all of org-mode's features to Leo, including drawers
(visible uA's) and agenda and table plugins. I'll also add support for
.org and .leo.org files, so that interchange between org mode and Leo
is as easy as possible.

Edward



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Leo vs org mode

A brief comparison of Leo and org mode.

Org mode has these strengths:

- Drawers: visible, pure text, easily extensible uA's.
- Agendas and tables.
- In-pane rendering of Latex and special symbols.
- Support for multiple source languages, including shell scripts, C, etc.
- Code blocks, with arguments.
- Result blocks.

Leo will have all of the above this year. Leo has its own strengths:

- Automatic tangling when saving files.
- @others, missing from org mode's noweb markup.
- Untangling: automatic update of @file nodes. Completely missing from org 
mode.
  In essence, all org mode files are @nosent files.
- Importers. There are importers, but apparently none for programming 
languages.
- Clones and especially clone-find commands.
- API: org mode does have a hacking api 
. It's oriented towards 
parsing body text.
- DOM: org mode simulates a DOM with filters. Org mode data is 
fundamentally text.
- Python scripting, including a python plugin architecture.

There may be more ;-)

*Conclusion*: It may still be true, in some limited areas, that Leo can do 
things that can even be *thought *in org mode.  However, that statement is 
no longer generally true, and I'll remove it from all future documentation.

All additions and corrections welcome.

Edward

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Re: Org Mode: Learning on demand

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 10:47:01 AM UTC-6, Offray Vladimir Luna 
Cárdenas wrote:

Recently I need to create a table in plain text and I new that Org-Mode 
> has a easy and intuitive way to do it, but I *didn't* want to learn 
> emacs to use Org-Mode. So I went to the Org-Mode screencasts web page 
> and saw the first 10 minutos or so of 2011 - Org Demo by Bastien [1]. I 
> particularly liked the idea of "not learning curve" and the idea of not 
> needing to learn Emacs to learn Org-Mode (that was my case). Then I saw 
> and introductory video "Taking Notes In Emacs Org-Mode" [2] which 
> provided example about outlining, taking notes, GTD and at the end, how 
> to reach org-mode documentation. Then I open the documentation, went to 
> tables, read a little while seeing the "panoramic" video on tables in 
> Org Mode at [3]. After that, and a couple of minutes, I was able to make 
> tables in Org-Mode plain text markup and this changed my way of doing 
> plain text tables forever...
>

[The process] seemed more like reading a map and finding where I was and 
> then 
> finding my way to my intended destination [than] reading the manual. 
> That "path" is now with me, next time I need to reach similar places. 
>

Seems like an excellent analogy. Reading docs sucks ;-)

Edward

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Re: About org mode

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Edward K. Ream  wrote:

>> So, what would be great is to be able to mark e.g. a chapter or section
node with a

n option "include all child nodes in the chapter's body pane in outline
order", with the ability to edit the child nodes' contents directly.

Suppose Leo supported a V2 outline pane that shows
 
zero or more body panes, embedded (somehow!) in the Qt outline.

Behind the scenes, almost everything would remain the same:

- Exactly one node, c.p, is the selected node.
- Exactly one body pane, c.frame.body, is selected.

Obviously, this would be a major project, but it's conceivable.

Edward

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Re: About org mode

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 11:08:49 AM UTC-6, Arjan wrote:

...two further desiderata based on org mode's capabilities
>
> 1. Support for tabular data inside the body pane.
>

A new table.py plugin will do this.

2. In OrgMode, outline structure and content are in the same pane.
>

This is really the key design difference between Leo and emacs/org-mode. I 
have been meaning to write about it. Here are my thoughts:

There are obvious advantages to org mode's operation. Behind the scenes, 
there is only one pane/widget/window, whatever you want to call it.

Would I use the org mode way if I had it to do all over again, knowing what 
I know now about the difficulties involved? Hard to say, but I like the 
separation of outline view and body pane. In Leo, the body pane is *always* 
visible, and I think that's important.

Otoh, an everything-in-one pane design works very well with Emacs's 
"windowing" system. It would be foolish to criticize it much.

> Leo's strength derives from the outline capabilities, so you have to put 
> small units of information in nodes to benefit from that, and that means 
> you can only see one small piece of information at a time **while working 
> on the text / information**.
>

Interesting.  I never thought of that benefit to the org mode way.

> So, what would be great is to be able to mark e.g. a chapter or section 
> node with an option "include all child nodes in the chapter's body pane in 
> outline order", with the ability to edit the child nodes' contents 
> directly. Probably far-fetched, but I can dream, right? ;)
>

Something like that has been proposed before. I ignored it then, and I 
don't like your specific proposal much.  But a more general solution is 
interesting, namely one-pane operation, just like org mode. Visually, this 
would be a radical departure for Leo. There would also be large adjustments 
behind the scenes. But everything is possible, given enough effort...

Edward

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Re: About org mode

On Saturday, February 11, 2017 at 4:26:44 PM UTC-6, Israel Hands wrote:

> for me the killer dimension of org-mode is the Agenda view

Leo must have an agenda plugin, possibly based on Terry's todo plugin.

>Auctex...kept me on Emacs.

Leo must have an easy way of rendering Latex and other symbols in the body 
pane.

Edward

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Re: Please review Leo's new 10-minute intro

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 1:52 PM, rengel  wrote:

> Thank you for providing this link to the excellent introduction to Org-mode! 
> You are right: Taken out of context your quote is 'not light reading'. But to 
> be fair, [the preceding paragraphs explains] the seemingly missing 
> information.

A good point. I agree, the intro is very well written.
I plan to read it until it's style and documentation strategy sinks in.

> The whole document looks so promising that I will give Org-mode a serious try.

As will I. Before a few weeks ago, I had no idea that org-mode was
such serious competition to Leo.

I plan to add all of org-mode's features to Leo, including drawers
(visible uA's) and agenda and table plugins. I'll also add support for
.org and .leo.org files, so that interchange between org mode and Leo
is as easy as possible.

Edward

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Re: Please review Leo's new 10-minute intro

2017-02-16 Thread rengel


>
>
> To get a feel for something completely different, I recommend looking at 
> the org-mode docs 
> .  Here 
> is an extended quotes from that page:
>
> Q
> Org-mode provides facilities to create and modify metadata quickly and 
> efficiently. It also provides facilities to search, sort, and filter 
> headlines, to display a chronological summary of all headlines with date 
> and time metadata, to display tabular views of properties at selected 
> headlines, to clock in and out of headlines defined as tasks, and more.
>
> The outline structure of documents defines a hierarchy of metadata. Tags 
> and properties of a node are inherited by its sub-nodes, and views of the 
> document can be designed that sum or average the properties inherited by a 
> node. Code blocks live in this hierarchy of content and metadata, all of 
> which is accessible to and can be modified by the code blocks.
> Q
>
 

>
> Not light reading, but effective. When I read them, I realize that Leo's 
> docs could be better, perhaps much better. Imo, they should be pitched at 
> exactly the same audience.
>
> Thank you for providing this link to the excellent introduction to 
Org-mode! You are right: Taken out of context your quote is 'not light 
reading'. But to be fair, just one paragraph before that quote, all the 
seemingly missing information - especially the explanation of metadat - is 
given:

One of the primary design goals of Org-mode was to define a system that 
> combines efficient note-taking and brainstorming with a task management and 
> project planning system. A single Org-mode document can hold the notes 
> together with all the data necessary to keep track of tasks and projects 
> associated with the notes. This is accomplished by assigning metadata to 
> outline nodes using a special syntax. Metadata for a node can include a 
> task state, like TODO or DONE, a priority, and one or more tags, dates, 
> and arbitrary key-value pairs called properties. In the following example 
> the top-level node is a task with state TODO, a priority of A, and tagged 
> for urgent attention at work. The task has been scheduled for 18 August 
> 2010 and a property indicates that it was delegated to Peter.
>
 

> * TODO [#A] Some task :@work:urgent:
> ,  SCHEDULED: <2010-08-18 Wed>
> ,  :PROPERTIES:
> ,:delegated_to: Peter
> ,  :END:
>
>
The whole document looks so promising that I will give Org-mode a serious 
try.

Regards,

Reinhard 

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Re: About org mode

1. Agree, auto-formatting tabular data in Org-mode is one of the central 
features.

2. I will go back to my "continuous edit pane" idea. I think if you really 
want to recreate Org-mode and make it attractive to those familiar with 
Org-mode there must be a "continuous edit pane" mode for Leo.

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 12:08:49 PM UTC-5, Arjan wrote:
>
> This sounds great! I would add two further desiderata based on orgmode's 
> capabilities (though I don't know if they are feasible).
>
> 1. Support for tabular data inside the body pane. In orgmode capturing 
> some tabular data is as easy as writing "| column a | column b |" etc.; you 
> can navigate columns with tab, columns adapt their width to the content, 
> and it is structure-aware, e.g. you can export tables to CSV/Excel. Perhaps 
> something like "@language csv" (or tab-separated @language tsv) could be 
> Leo's answer?
>
> 2. In OrgMode, outline structure and content are in the same pane. You can 
> expand all hierarchies and directly see and work on all the text in context 
> (i.e. see the contents of preceding and following headings). I've started 
> using Leo for writing and as information-manager, but this is really the 
> biggest thing holding me back to use it for everything. Leo's strength 
> derives from the outline capabilities, so you have to put small units of 
> information in nodes to benefit from that, and that means you can only see 
> one small piece of information at a time **while working on the text / 
> information**.
> So, what would be great is to be able to mark e.g. a chapter or section 
> node with an option "include all child nodes in the chapter's body pane in 
> outline order", with the ability to edit the child nodes' contents 
> directly. Probably far-fetched, but I can dream, right? ;)
>
> All best,
>
> Arjan
>

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Re: commands to move to next file in 'file edit list'?

I've seen Next and Prior used on the linux side for key mapping. But I 
agree that these names are confusing.

http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/List_of_Keysyms_Recognised_by_Xmodmap

I have to believe they are ancient designations perhaps going back to the 
teletype era. A quick google search for "unix teletype keyboards" reveals 
that for some there was neither PgUp/PgDown or Prior/Next. 

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 11:10:15 AM UTC-5, jkn wrote:
>
> Hi John
>
> On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 3:19:00 PM UTC, john lunzer wrote:
>>
>> Also looks like Ctrl+Tab performs the same function as Ctrl+PgDown
>>
>> On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 7:21:17 AM UTC-5, john lunzer wrote:
>>>
>>> I believe these are already bound to Ctrl + PgUp/PgDown. If not let me 
>>> know and I'll fish them out.
>>>
>>> On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 6:43:13 AM UTC-5, jkn wrote:

 Hi all
 possibly-dumb question, although I can't find it in the cheat sheet 
 for via print-commands:

 If I have multiple files open in Leo, so multiple 'file tabs' at the 
 top of the window, are there commands that would allow me to switch from 
 one file to another? Currently I have to click on the filename tab; I'm 
 hoping for 'move to next file/move to previous file' type commands that I 
 can bind to...

 Thanks
 Jon N

>>>
> thanks for the pointer. Hmm...
>
> - yes, the commands seem to be the unhelpfully-named (to me at least) 
> 'tab-cycle-next' and 'tab-cycle-previous'. I do think that some of Leo's 
> primitive commands could benefit from a re-naming blitz (difficult though I 
> imagine this would be), thereseem to be several naming schemes going on 
> there...
> - also confusingly to me, the keys they are bound to are called 
> "Ctrl+Next" and "Ctrl+Prior". Any idea where these names come from? I've 
> never encountered "Ctrl+Prior" in 35+ years of keyboarding...
>
> Thanks a lot
> Jon N
>
>  
>

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Re: About org mode

2017-02-16 Thread Arjan

This sounds great! I would add two further desiderata based on orgmode's 
capabilities (though I don't know if they are feasible).

1. Support for tabular data inside the body pane. In orgmode capturing some 
tabular data is as easy as writing "| column a | column b |" etc.; you can 
navigate columns with tab, columns adapt their width to the content, and it 
is structure-aware, e.g. you can export tables to CSV/Excel. Perhaps 
something like "@language csv" (or tab-separated @language tsv) could be 
Leo's answer?

2. In OrgMode, outline structure and content are in the same pane. You can 
expand all hierarchies and directly see and work on all the text in context 
(i.e. see the contents of preceding and following headings). I've started 
using Leo for writing and as information-manager, but this is really the 
biggest thing holding me back to use it for everything. Leo's strength 
derives from the outline capabilities, so you have to put small units of 
information in nodes to benefit from that, and that means you can only see 
one small piece of information at a time **while working on the text / 
information**.
So, what would be great is to be able to mark e.g. a chapter or section 
node with an option "include all child nodes in the chapter's body pane in 
outline order", with the ability to edit the child nodes' contents 
directly. Probably far-fetched, but I can dream, right? ;)

All best,

Arjan

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Re: Please review Leo's new 10-minute intro




On 16/02/17 11:17, Edward K. Ream wrote:


On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 5:51 PM, lewis > wrote:


After clicking 'Learn about Leo in 10 minutes' the first thing I
read are quotes about Leo. This is a distraction and quite
_annoying clutter._


I disagree, but let's not get bogged down in details.



I also disagree. There are several manuals and books with quotes 
introducing each manual chapter (not always about the tool itself) that 
provide some kind of provocation or introduce metaphors about the 
following text. Being direct doesn't mean being dry. And there is also 
the issue of author style.


Cheers,

Offray

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Re: commands to move to next file in 'file edit list'?

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 5:43 AM, jkn  wrote:

>
> If I have multiple files open in Leo, so multiple 'file tabs' at the top
> of the window, are there commands that would allow me to switch from one
> file to another?
>

As discussed, Ctrl-Tab (a standard binding) does this.

If you are interested, there are also programmatic ways of switching tabs.

Edward

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Org Mode: Learning on demand


Hi,

Now that we're discussing about redoing the documentation in a more 
direct and pedagogic way, I would like to share my experience while 
using recently emacs. This could be helpful, but I understand that the 
one actually making the documentation is Edward, and we're trying to 
help from the "distance".


Over a couple of decades, since I'm using Free/Libre Open Source 
Software, I have used Emacs barely. I think that the total amount of 
time in all that time is near to a couple of hours top. Each time I have 
used just for a few minutes.


Recently I need to create a table in plain text and I new that Org-Mode 
has a easy and intuitive way to do it, but I *didn't* want to learn 
emacs to use Org-Mode. So I went to the Org-Mode screencasts web page 
and saw the first 10 minutos or so of 2011 - Org Demo by Bastien [1]. I 
particularly liked the idea of "not learning curve" and the idea of not 
needing to learn Emacs to learn Org-Mode (that was my case). Then I saw 
and introductory video "Taking Notes In Emacs Org-Mode" [2] which 
provided example about outlining, taking notes, GTD and at the end, how 
to reach org-mode documentation. Then I open the documentation, went to 
tables, read a little while seeing the "panoramic" video on tables in 
Org Mode at [3]. After that, and a couple of minutes, I was able to make 
tables in Org-Mode plain text markup and this changed my way of doing 
plain text tables forever.


[1] http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-screencasts/ghm2011-demo.html
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzZ09dAbLEE
[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTJVLJd_gz0

So, what I learned from that:

  - I was motivated for a particular task (I didn't want to learn Emacs 
to learn Org, or even learn all Org).
  - I started from a panoramic view to see where my task and approach 
fit the tool/community.
  - From that overview and familiarization with the basics (basic 
outlining and its shorcuts) I went deeper into my particular task, using 
multimodal info (video and text) about the same taks: making tables.
  - I accomplished my task in a very fluid way and change the way I 
will made it, from now on.


That seemed more like reading a map and finding where I was and then 
finding my way to my intended destination that to reading the manual. 
That "path" is now with me, next time I need to reach similar places.


As I said, I'm now writing the documentation for Grafoscopio and is more 
like a traditional manual (despite of providing external links and 
panoramic information), with particular general tasks (installation, 
outlining, switching to interactive nodes) and an invitation to go to 
particular notebooks for specific/deeper stuff. Still far away of what 
Org-Mode provides, particularly for its active community with several 
contributors and authors, but maybe this "map instead of manual" can be 
a proper ethos for interactive documentation.


Cheers,

Offray

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Re: Please review Leo's new 10-minute intro

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 5:51 PM, lewis  wrote:

> After clicking 'Learn about Leo in 10 minutes' the first thing I read are
> quotes about Leo. This is a distraction and quite *annoying clutter.*
>

I disagree, but let's not get bogged down in details.

To get a feel for something completely different, I recommend looking at
the org-mode docs
.  Here is
an extended quotes from that page:

Q
Org-mode provides facilities to create and modify metadata quickly and
efficiently. It also provides facilities to search, sort, and filter
headlines, to display a chronological summary of all headlines with date
and time metadata, to display tabular views of properties at selected
headlines, to clock in and out of headlines defined as tasks, and more.

The outline structure of documents defines a hierarchy of metadata. Tags
and properties of a node are inherited by its sub-nodes, and views of the
document can be designed that sum or average the properties inherited by a
node. Code blocks live in this hierarchy of content and metadata, all of
which is accessible to and can be modified by the code blocks.
Q

Not light reading, but effective. When I read them, I realize that Leo's
docs could be better, perhaps much better. Imo, they should be pitched at
exactly the same audience.

In my view, it is the *capabilities *described above that are the real
challenge to Leo. These capabilities are what make org mode attractive to
so many scientists.

So my focus is going to remain on improving Leo itself. If you, or anyone
else, wants to rewrite Leo's intro and tutorial, please do. No doubt
*somebody* could do much better than I.

Edward

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Re: About org mode

On Friday, February 10, 2017 at 4:21:20 PM UTC-6, Edward K. Ream wrote:

> Leo [must] have *everything* that org-mode has.

Leo's to-do list now contains the following:

- Steal everything useful from org mode:
- Agenda.
- Text drawers replace uA's.
- Rendering of Latex, etc. in Leo's body pane.
- Better support for shell console & scripts.
- Better support for make, C, C++, Java, etc.

- Support .org files and .org.leo files.

The results will be better, because of Leo's API, DOM and python language. 
Otoh, org mode is now entrenched. Leo won't change that. To keep Leo viable 
it must be easy to convert between Leo outlines and org mode outlines.

Edward

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Re: commands to move to next file in 'file edit list'?

2017-02-16 Thread jkn

Hi John

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 3:19:00 PM UTC, john lunzer wrote:
>
> Also looks like Ctrl+Tab performs the same function as Ctrl+PgDown
>
> On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 7:21:17 AM UTC-5, john lunzer wrote:
>>
>> I believe these are already bound to Ctrl + PgUp/PgDown. If not let me 
>> know and I'll fish them out.
>>
>> On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 6:43:13 AM UTC-5, jkn wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all
>>> possibly-dumb question, although I can't find it in the cheat sheet 
>>> for via print-commands:
>>>
>>> If I have multiple files open in Leo, so multiple 'file tabs' at the top 
>>> of the window, are there commands that would allow me to switch from one 
>>> file to another? Currently I have to click on the filename tab; I'm hoping 
>>> for 'move to next file/move to previous file' type commands that I can bind 
>>> to...
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Jon N
>>>
>>
thanks for the pointer. Hmm...

- yes, the commands seem to be the unhelpfully-named (to me at least) 
'tab-cycle-next' and 'tab-cycle-previous'. I do think that some of Leo's 
primitive commands could benefit from a re-naming blitz (difficult though I 
imagine this would be), thereseem to be several naming schemes going on 
there...
- also confusingly to me, the keys they are bound to are called "Ctrl+Next" 
and "Ctrl+Prior". Any idea where these names come from? I've never 
encountered "Ctrl+Prior" in 35+ years of keyboarding...

Thanks a lot
Jon N

 

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Re: crash reading LeoDocs.leo


On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 4:32 AM, lewis  wrote:

> 
I managed to hard crash Leo
...In a viewrendered window I clicked on [a url].

My apologies for this. Rev cbc0b03 fixes the problem and ensures that Leo
can never again exit unexpected in exactly the same way.

Edward

P. S. Leo catches all exceptions when executing commands, but clicking a
url calls a callback. For *this* bug it suffices to have g.openUrlOnClick
catch all exceptions. The potential exists for similar problems in other
callbacks. A code review is needed.

P. P. S. I use the term "hard crash" to mean that Leo has somehow caused
the Python interpreter itself to crash. This can happen by passing the
wrong args to Qt. In this case, the effect is the same, but the cause is
just an uncaught Python exception.

EKR

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Re: commands to move to next file in 'file edit list'?

Also looks like Ctrl+Tab performs the same function as Ctrl+PgDown

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 7:21:17 AM UTC-5, john lunzer wrote:
>
> I believe these are already bound to Ctrl + PgUp/PgDown. If not let me 
> know and I'll fish them out.
>
> On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 6:43:13 AM UTC-5, jkn wrote:
>>
>> Hi all
>> possibly-dumb question, although I can't find it in the cheat sheet 
>> for via print-commands:
>>
>> If I have multiple files open in Leo, so multiple 'file tabs' at the top 
>> of the window, are there commands that would allow me to switch from one 
>> file to another? Currently I have to click on the filename tab; I'm hoping 
>> for 'move to next file/move to previous file' type commands that I can bind 
>> to...
>>
>> Thanks
>> Jon N
>>
>>

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Re: commands to move to next file in 'file edit list'?