Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
Christian Montoya wrote: Maybe because no self-respecting user is going to take the time to contact you and let you know that your page doesn't quite work for them. Then again, it's not the main content of the page... maybe some users don't care if they can't see it at all. I know, I know - the invisible minorities are also by and wide silent. It takes the responsible idle theory and judgment of designers to take them into account and deal with them with due weight. Revision: My attitude was consciously (and uncharacteristically, I hope) flippant, I've revised it. Kim Kruse wrote: Maybe one of these could solve you h1 problem... http://tjkdesign.com/articles/tip.asp or http://tjkdesign.com/articles/a_perfect_Image_Replacement_technique.asp Kim That's amazing. How could Thierry leave us in the dark this long? I may very well play with this... Regardsm Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
I swear we just had this thread last week, but can't find it in the
back-catalog. Must be getting my lists confused.
Mihael, I share your view that h1img//h1 is a bit ugly. I'm aware
from extensive debate that the following idea is pretty unpopular, but I
like to assign an id to my h1 and style it to display the logo...
h1 id=logoCorporation Ltd./h1
h1#logo
{
display: block;
width: #; height: #;
background-image: url(#);
background-repeat: no-repeat;
text-size: 1px;
text-decoration: none;
color: [background-colour];
text-size: 0;
}
First of all I make the text size minuscule and indistinguishable from
the rest of the page (for browsers that refuse to understand zero
font-size - like IE and current release Safari), and then supersede that
with font-size:0 so that clever browsers can make the text dissapear
completely. Afterwards you are left with nothing.
The arguments against this are first of all that the above technique for
hiding text isn't perfect in a lot of browsers, and that even if it does
work, any user agent that has disabled images will make the whole h1
illegible. Valid points, but I haven't bumped into them yet to the best
of my knowledge :P.
Another method is to include an empty non-image object into the h1 that
has all the non-text properties written above. I've seen this work, but
the problem is that it's strictly speaking invalid to A) put a div0
inside an h1 or B) have an empty span.
So don't say I didn't warn you of the cons, but those are two methods I
find pretty interesting!
Regards,
Barney
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Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
The problem with shrinking text in that fashion is that Google may well penalize you as it things you are keyword stuffing (like those sites that have small text at the bottom of the page that is the same colour as the background). I would strongly recommend not minimizing text in this fashion. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
First of all I make the text size minuscule and indistinguishable from the rest of the page [...] The arguments against this are first of all that the above technique for hiding text isn't perfect in a lot of browsers, and that even if it does work, any user agent that has disabled images will make the whole h1 illegible. Valid points, Exactly. but I haven't bumped into them yet to the best of my knowledge :P. And how could you if you never disable images yourself? Let me tell you my experience. At times it does happen, that I come across pages that have exceedingly long loading times, be it due to tons of images and scripts, or network failures. In these cases I disable images (and scripting). Sometimes the result makes me cry. Mihael, I share your view that h1img//h1 is a bit ugly. Why? A logo is always more than decoration, it is content. A logo is important. Now IF you think that the logo is indeed the most important heading of a page, include it as what it is - an image! For users like me, who sometimes browse with images disabled, the alternative text in the alt attribute will be more than welcome. Irrespective of the possibility of using images in level 1 headings, I question its reasonability. Is a logo really sensible as a heading, the most important heading? I would rather put the logo inside a paragraph or division element with id or class attribute logo. Or convince the WHAT-WG of introducing a new logo element in HTML 5 :-) Cheers, jens -- Jens Brueckmann http://www.yalf.de *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
Benjamin I slightly surprised that google can automatically both access CSS, ascertain it's meaning and then pass judgement on what is too small in terms of text size. For example CSS could reduce the text size by a number of steps including by means of inheritence and applying different techniques mixing EMS and percentages. Maybe if somebody from Google had cause to manually investigate I may be wrong. However I suspect there is an awful lot of FUD surrounding the capabilities of Google irrespective of the number of PHD grads they employ. -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others : http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 16/01/07, Benjamin Dodson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem with shrinking text in that fashion is that Google may well penalize you as it things you are keyword stuffing (like those sites that have small text at the bottom of the page that is the same colour as the background). I would strongly recommend not minimizing text in this fashion. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
On 1/16/07, John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It was my understanding that Google only reads inline styles anyway, not those in external stylesheets. Some people who monitor these kinds of things have been reporting for a while that the googlebot is making CSS file requests. This post by Matt Cutts, a Google employee, indicates that Google are aware of CSS spamming techniques and include some measures against them in their algorithm: http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/seo-advice-check-your-own-site/ Having said that, if you're not keyword stuffing that you have nothing to be worried about. -- Kay Smoljak business: www.cleverstarfish.com standards: kay.zombiecoder.com coldfusion: kay.smoljak.com personal: goatlady.wordpress.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
Google: It is the oldest trick in the standardista's book, when lacking in citations, to say that the technique impinges on SEO. Shame on you! Hehe. Not seriously suggesting malice. I also believe Google puts my site ahead of everything else based on my excellent CSS management. Hehehe. Logo: I think the only reason this debate can carry on for so long without anybody bumping into hard regulatory standards is because the semantic definition of a logo is an ambiguous thing - Jens, recommending them as elements for HTML5 would be great, hehehe. There's always the thing of corporate branding websites being thin on content and massive on flashy presentation. The presentation is the content in those cases. You get the impression with these things, when the only real translatable content is meaningless marketing jargon, a catchphrase and possibly contact details, that these people would want an alternative for the apparently ever increasing demographic of users with large black Times over a white background, an alternative content of Just go away. In these cases I really believe there's nothing to offer people who whether through choice or ability cannot access visuals/some basic amount of ten-year-old technology. Many sites want their logo at the top of the page, and they want it to make an impression. However, if the user has no access to images, do you really want them to go through header: image: logo or this is the brand title and slogan at every turn? I'd argue against. They will most likely know where they are (at least I hope so) from having accessed the page via a search results blurb, a descriptive external link, the site's root, and/or the title - if they don't, something's amiss there. Ultimately, what I'd want is a CSS3 function text-display:none. Jens is right, a logo's a complex thing... But in most instances I feel that a logo _is_ a purely visual icon. Granted, it has meaning, but as I struggle to explain to a great many CSS designers, for me, all visual content must have meaning and all of it is some abstraction of content in my eyes (I'm not insane, most people do access the web via their eyes, not through view-source!). I'm not explaining this incredibly well, but there is a gist somewhere in the last 3 paragraphs. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but you could always do something
like:
html:
h1spanCompany Name/span/h1
css:
h1 span { display:none }
h1 {
width:100px
height:100px;
background: transparent url(/images/logo.png) no-repeat;
}
That way it's text to a screen reader and an image in a browser.
- Jeff
Jeffrey Sambells | Director of RD at We-Create | See my book at
GoogleMapsBook.com
contact | [EMAIL PROTECTED] - 519.745.7374 x103 | Blogging at
JeffreySambells.com
On 12-Jan-07, at 2:09 PM, Marcio Werneck wrote:
Hello !
I have a doubt regarding putting the logo in an H tag.
Wrapping the website logo in an H1, is a good practice? - always?
Thank you
--
Marcio Werneck
http://www.globo.com/
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Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
Jeffrey Sambells wrote:
html:
h1spanCompany Name/span/h1
css:
h1 span { display:none }
h1 {
width:100px
height:100px;
background: transparent url(/images/logo.png) no-repeat;
}
That's a great notion, and one I'd agree with - but sadly the consensus
in the user agent development community is that display:none should mean
'does not exist as far as the user is concerned'. All the major screen
readers ignore it as well.
Even more ironic, visibility:hidden would do exactly the same thing.
Regards,
Barney
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Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
unfortunately not
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=ScreenreaderVisibility
display none means not displayed (read) by screen readers.
--
Regards
- Rob
Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk
Linking in with others : http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton
On 16/01/07, Jeffrey Sambells [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but you could always do something
like:
html:
h1spanCompany Name/span/h1
css:
h1 span { display:none }
h1 {
width:100px
height:100px;
background: transparent url(/images/logo.png) no-repeat;
}
That way it's text to a screen reader and an image in a browser.
- Jeff
[image: me] *Jeffrey Sambells* | Director of RD at
We-Createhttp://wecreate.com/| See my book at
GoogleMapsBook.com http://googlemapsbook.com/
contact | [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] - 519.745.7374 x103 |
Blogging at JeffreySambells.com http://jeffreysambells.com/
On 12-Jan-07, at 2:09 PM, Marcio Werneck wrote:
Hello !
I have a doubt regarding putting the logo in an H tag.
Wrapping the website logo in an H1, is a good practice? - always?
Thank you
--
Marcio Werneck
http://www.globo.com/
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--
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Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
Couldn't we use media rules to make things visible to screen readers?
@media aural, braille, embossed { h1 span { display:inline; } }
- Andy
unfortunately not
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=ScreenreaderVisibility
display none means not displayed (read) by screen readers.
--
Regards
- Rob
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Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
Andrew
Sounds like it should be a valid approach, however I *think* that with
screen readers support media type aural is spotty and that they all take
output designated for screeen and render this albeit it in a different
manner.
--
Regards
- Rob
Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk
Linking in with others : http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton
On 16/01/07, Andrew Ingram [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Couldn't we use media rules to make things visible to screen readers?
@media aural, braille, embossed { h1 span { display:inline; } }
- Andy
unfortunately not
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=ScreenreaderVisibility
display none means not displayed (read) by screen readers.
--
Regards
- Rob
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Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
On 1/16/07 10:45 AM, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Jeffrey Sambells wrote:
html:
h1spanCompany Name/span/h1
css:
h1 span { display:none }
h1 {
width:100px
height:100px;
background: transparent url(/images/logo.png) no-repeat;
}
h1 span {margin-left:-px;}
--
Tom Livingston | Senior Multimedia Artist | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com
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Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
Andrew Ingram wrote:
Couldn't we use media rules to make things visible to screen readers?
@media aural, braille, embossed { h1 span { display:inline; } }
Again, that'd be wonderful, but as it stands nothing actually supports
those to the best of my knowledge.
The tragedy is that the wealth of CSS available since the inception of
CSS2 for targeting all sorts of different user agents is ignored, and as
such we increasingly have to account for the custom overrides of users.
Regards,
Barney
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Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
Maybe one of these could solve you h1 problem...
http://tjkdesign.com/articles/tip.asp or
http://tjkdesign.com/articles/a_perfect_Image_Replacement_technique.asp
Kim
Barney Carroll skrev:
Andrew Ingram wrote:
Couldn't we use media rules to make things visible to screen readers?
@media aural, braille, embossed { h1 span { display:inline; } }
Again, that'd be wonderful, but as it stands nothing actually supports
those to the best of my knowledge.
The tragedy is that the wealth of CSS available since the inception of
CSS2 for targeting all sorts of different user agents is ignored, and
as such we increasingly have to account for the custom overrides of
users.
Regards,
Barney
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Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
Tom Livingston wrote:
h1 span {margin-left:-px;}
Or...
h1 span {
position : absolute;
top : -9000px;
left : -9000px;
}
...would do it.
Respectfully,
Mike Cherim
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Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
On 1/16/07, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I swear we just had this thread last week, but can't find it in the
back-catalog. Must be getting my lists confused.
Mihael, I share your view that h1img//h1 is a bit ugly. I'm aware
from extensive debate that the following idea is pretty unpopular, but I
like to assign an id to my h1 and style it to display the logo...
h1 id=logoCorporation Ltd./h1
h1#logo
{
display: block;
width: #; height: #;
background-image: url(#);
background-repeat: no-repeat;
text-size: 1px;
text-decoration: none;
color: [background-colour];
text-size: 0;
}
...
and that even if it does
work, any user agent that has disabled images will make the whole h1
illegible. Valid points, but I haven't bumped into them yet to the best
of my knowledge :P.
Maybe because no self-respecting user is going to take the time to
contact you and let you know that your page doesn't quite work for
them.
Then again, it's not the main content of the page... maybe some users
don't care if they can't see it at all.
--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com
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RE: [WSG] Logo and H1's
Patrick wrote In general terms, what I'm trying to convey here is: it's easy to pick up a screenreader as a sighted user, do some testing, and come to some conclusions, all with the right intentions of course, like oh, this must be annoying for those users...but, not being a blind user who uses that technology day in, day out, it's also possible to draw some erroneous conclusions, or to seek absolute, black and white maxims (this should never be done) where there are really just opinions, personal preferences, and lots of shades of gray. Which leads perfectly into a plug for our free JAWS screen reader demos. One of our blind testers talks about how blind people visualise web pages and navigate through them. We then have some practical examples where he visits sites he has not seen before so you see his approach to browsing, the problems he encounters and how he overcomes them (if he can!). The next one on Monday is fully booked (maybe I can squeeze in one more) but there will be another in February. You can register at www.accessibility.co.uk/free_jaws_demo.htm Steve Green Director Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility www.testpartners.co.uk www.accessibility.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Logo and H1's
I bought your book - isn't that enough? And if you make the 300-mile round trip to the demo I'll even buy lunch. Steve -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke Sent: 13 January 2007 19:53 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's Steve Green wrote: Which leads perfectly into a plug for our free JAWS screen reader demos. Pssst...where's my agreed commission? ;) P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re.dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
On 1/12/07, Marcio Werneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello ! I have a doubt regarding putting the logo in an H tag. Wrapping the website logo in an H1, is a good practice? - always? I have done the following with multiple sites: h1img src=logo alt=site title/h1 And have never seen any issues with regards to SEO. As for semantics, if you think about it, the title of the site is in the title tag (you know, in the head), so having a duplicate of that in the h1 tag really isn't that useful. If you can go with just using a div for the logo and making the h1 the title of the current page rather than the title of the site, that's a much better option. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
Hi, From a standards perspective I can't see how putting an image in a H1 tag is a bad thing. From an SEO perspective, doing this can help a lot with correct usage of the alt tag. I've seen lots of sites use their H1 tags for the logo, and then H2 for the actual heading of the page. I can't see anything wrong with this as the markup is technically correct and you are catering to accessibility via the alt tag... Ben Dodson http://www.bendodson.com/ - coming soon. On 12/01/07, Marcio Werneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello ! I have a doubt regarding putting the logo in an H tag. Wrapping the website logo in an H1, is a good practice? - always? Thank you -- Marcio Werneck http://www.globo.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
h1img src=logo alt=site title/h1 And have never seen any issues with regards to SEO. As for semantics, if you think about it, the title of the site is in the title tag (you know, in the head), so having a duplicate of that in the h1 tag really isn't that useful. If you can go with just using a div for the logo and making the h1 the title of the current page rather than the title of the site, that's a much better option. that is what I ment.. But than again, you would have a again a duplicate as title would certainly contain the current page title... it is better to put in first that h1 the text title... because is much more nicer to listen to screen reader pronouncing Heading level one. Mihael's blog about something. it is also important, that it's elegant :D *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
h1img src=logo alt=site title/h1 Thinking back a couple years I am pretty sure that was a recommended image replacement technique from somewhere. I do it all the time if the university logo is on a page without a word mark. Since we use sifr for the word mark (that _has_ to be eidetic neo font) that is just a H1 now. I really don't think there is anything wrong with it being a logo or title if its a graphic as long as it is the most important part of the page. The alt text takes care of the text browsers and such (as already mentioned). Jesse -- Jesse Rodgers Manager, Web Communications Communications and Public Affairs University of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada +1 519 888 4567 x33874, [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
Christian Montoya wrote: On 1/12/07, Marcio Werneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello ! I have a doubt regarding putting the logo in an H tag. Wrapping the website logo in an H1, is a good practice? - always? I have done the following with multiple sites: h1img src=logo alt=site title/h1 And have never seen any issues with regards to SEO. As for semantics, if you think about it, the title of the site is in the title tag (you know, in the head), so having a duplicate of that in the h1 tag really isn't that useful. If you can go with just using a div for the logo and making the h1 the title of the current page rather than the title of the site, that's a much better option. I do this sort of thing too, I usually place both the logo and the site title in an h2 in the page header and then the page title in an h1 associated with the content, depends on the layout and what people are likely to be searching for. If its a small site and your page titles are things like 'About Us' (and other favourites) then SEO wise you are better off putting the site name/company name in the h1. If it's a blog then you want the article titles in the h1 and nice readable url. Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
On 1/12/07, Mihael Zadravec [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/12/07, Rob O'Rourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christian Montoya wrote: On 1/12/07, Marcio Werneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello ! I have a doubt regarding putting the logo in an H tag. Wrapping the website logo in an H1, is a good practice? - always? I have done the following with multiple sites: h1img src=logo alt=site title/h1 And have never seen any issues with regards to SEO. As for semantics, if you think about it, the title of the site is in the title tag (you know, in the head), so having a duplicate of that in the h1 tag really isn't that useful. If you can go with just using a div for the logo and making the h1 the title of the current page rather than the title of the site, that's a much better option. I do this sort of thing too, I usually place both the logo and the site title in an h2 in the page header and then the page title in an h1 associated with the content, depends on the layout and what people are likely to be searching for. If its a small site and your page titles are things like 'About Us' (and other favourites) then SEO wise you are better off putting the site name/company name in the h1. If it's a blog then you want the article titles in the h1 and nice readable url. Rob I you'd listen to screen reader... (I use JAWS), you could se the diference in expirience I still claim it is absolutly better, if it's headeing... let it be text. Screen reader otherwise reads it heading one. image graphics. Company logo ... it is much much more nicer if it says heading one. Company name dash online computer store image graphics bla bla... and than you also need to point out with alt text that the image graphic is Somecompanyname logo... I prefer the text in headings. EDIT - ROB, don't get me wrong... When I said If you'd listen to screen reader, I was not pointing at you... It was just a figure of speech and for those who did not listen to screen reader... cya! Mihael -- Računalniške storitve Toasted Web Mihael Zadravec s.p. --- tel: 00386 51 808136 email in msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype kontakt: mihael_zadravec --- Toasted Web http://www.toastedweb.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
Mihael Zadravec wrote: you also need to point out with alt text that the image graphic is Somecompanyname logo... Not necessarily. The alt can just be Company name. And if the logo has a strapline Company name - strapline. The fact that it's a logo is irrelevant. Alt reflects the meaning of the image, which in the case of a logo is to brand the content with the company's name. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Logo and H1's
Mihael Zadravec wrote: logo is just logo, and has relevance only for sighted users. I have been away from this list for a while now... When did it stop being a web standards forum and become instead a web opinion forum? Mihael, what supporting evidence do you have for this claim? While a company's logo or word mark may *primarily* be for visual representation of the company, I would also venture that if I spoke of the swoosh logo, or the golden arches even many non-sighted people would know I was referring to Nike and the MacDonald's hamburger chain. You need to be *very* careful when stating things that you specify if they are fact or opinion, as I take great exception to your factual stating of an opinion here... Sorry too if I come off grouchy, but this is important! JF *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
On 1/12/07, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mihael Zadravec wrote: you also need to point out with alt text that the image graphic is Somecompanyname logo... Not necessarily. The alt can just be Company name. And if the logo has a strapline Company name - strapline. The fact that it's a logo is irrelevant. Alt reflects the meaning of the image, which in the case of a logo is to brand the content with the company's name. Ok, you are right about alt text that there should not be a logo word. But what is the point of explaining to the screen reader user that this is a image graphic, and then not telling him what is on it... If you say this is company logo, he would be thinking Aha, ok that is company logo. if you say, Company name.. he does not know what the image graphic is representing... But that is not souch a big deal... A big deal is - why does he have to listen to the heading one. image graphics. Company name - online computer store... if he could listen to the headeing one. Company name - online computer store...? Still it is better to have a text in heading instead of graphics. Is that not right? Can't you just move that logo somewhere else, because screen reader user realy does not care about your logo image? He is more interested in information - text based information. Mihael *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
Mihael Zadravec wrote: but we all know that for the best screen reader users expirience, it is still better that headeings contain text only... But we are not designing sites solely to cater for screen reader users. Using an image in markup, with correct alt, is perfectly fine and still usable for all audiences, sighted or not. Why would one want to use an image, rather than CSS trickery? Many reasons...one would be to avoid potential css on/images off issues (as previously discussed on the list), if one cares about that particular configuration; another would be a restrictive CMS; or, which is the situation I usually face, when there are multiple authors with varying skill levels editing pages and requiring them to set up specific image replacements for all their particular graphical needs is simply not a realistic option, and it's far easier for them to put an image in as long as they provide the right alternative text behind it. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
Mihael Zadravec wrote: On 1/12/07, *Mihael Zadravec* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/12/07, *Rob O'Rourke* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christian Montoya wrote: On 1/12/07, Marcio Werneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello ! I have a doubt regarding putting the logo in an H tag. Wrapping the website logo in an H1, is a good practice? - always? I have done the following with multiple sites: h1img src=logo alt=site title/h1 And have never seen any issues with regards to SEO. As for semantics, if you think about it, the title of the site is in the title tag (you know, in the head), so having a duplicate of that in the h1 tag really isn't that useful. If you can go with just using a div for the logo and making the h1 the title of the current page rather than the title of the site, that's a much better option. I do this sort of thing too, I usually place both the logo and the site title in an h2 in the page header and then the page title in an h1 associated with the content, depends on the layout and what people are likely to be searching for. If its a small site and your page titles are things like 'About Us' (and other favourites) then SEO wise you are better off putting the site name/company name in the h1. If it's a blog then you want the article titles in the h1 and nice readable url. Rob I you'd listen to screen reader... (I use JAWS), you could se the diference in expirience I still claim it is absolutly better, if it's headeing... let it be text. Screen reader otherwise reads it heading one. image graphics. Company logo ... it is much much more nicer if it says heading one. Company name dash online computer store image graphics bla bla... and than you also need to point out with alt text that the image graphic is Somecompanyname logo... I prefer the text in headings. EDIT - ROB, don't get me wrong... When I said If you'd listen to screen reader, I was not pointing at you... It was just a figure of speech and for those who did not listen to screen reader... cya! Mihael No worries Mihael, i think you wanted to say if you have ever listened to a screen reader. When I say I put the logo in a header it's because It's my opinion that it is an important part of the document and should be in the html as with other images that are relevant to the document. A website ideally should be accessible to everyone, sighted or not so I don't code specifically for screen readers nor any user agent. I always try to code a nice, meaningful document. 'Try' is the operative word there, one thing that's clear is that any consensus from these discussions is hard to come by. I've not managed to get a screen-reader working very well for testing so far, does anyone know of one (preferably free) that provides a fairly typical screen reader experience? JAWS is a bit out of my price range. Cheers Rob O *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
No worries Mihael, i think you wanted to say if you have ever listened to a screen reader. When I say I put the logo in a header it's because It's my opinion that it is an important part of the document and should be in the html as with other images that are relevant to the document. A website ideally should be accessible to everyone, sighted or not so I don't code specifically for screen readers nor any user agent. I always try to code a nice, meaningful document. 'Try' is the operative word there, one thing that's clear is that any consensus from these discussions is hard to come by. I also try to do it so, one can't always make thing to work idealy for all user groups. When I started to use JAWS, it helped me to understand the concept that sould be adopted when coding websites... I must say, that before I used it... some things just didn't come acros my mind. Something like ... screan reader reads it dotdotdot... that is anoying. This is the start of shorten news text and it ends with dotdotdot It is something that is also a part usability issue, while it anoyes while listening... like it would some low contrast or something like that... I've not managed to get a screen-reader working very well for testing so far, does anyone know of one (preferably free) that provides a fairly typical screen reader experience? JAWS is a bit out of my price range. Cheers Rob O JAWS free trial is available here: http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_downloads/jaws.asp You can use it for 40 minutes, than it requests to reboot the system, and you can use it again for 40 minutes. It is good thing for testing, maybe out of graditude for making that kind of software I will buy one :) ( when I get those 1000$ together ) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
Mihael Zadravec wrote: Something like ... screan reader reads it dotdotdot... that is anoying. This is the start of shorten news text and it ends with dotdotdot It is something that is also a part usability issue, while it anoyes while listening... But the thing is: it may annoy you, but does it annoy actual blind users of the software, or is it just something that they're not even hearing anymore because they're used to it and it's just part of their daily experience? From the handful of blind screenreader users I've conversed with in the past few years, this sort of thing is not something they've ever mentioned to me as an annoyance. In this specific example, dot dot dot is - both in written form, and when spelled out - a convention to mark an omission. Also, it will depend on the screenreader's specific verbosity settings, in many cases, whether this is read out or simply replaced with an appropriately long pause of silence. In general terms, what I'm trying to convey here is: it's easy to pick up a screenreader as a sighted user, do some testing, and come to some conclusions, all with the right intentions of course, like oh, this must be annoying for those users...but, not being a blind user who uses that technology day in, day out, it's also possible to draw some erroneous conclusions, or to seek absolute, black and white maxims (this should never be done) where there are really just opinions, personal preferences, and lots of shades of gray. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
On 1/12/07, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Something like ... screan reader reads it dotdotdot... that is anoying. This is the start of shorten news text and it ends with dotdotdot It is something that is also a part usability issue, while it anoyes while listening... But the thing is: it may annoy you, but does it annoy actual blind users of the software, or is it just something that they're not even hearing anymore because they're used to it and it's just part of their daily experience? From the handful of blind screenreader users I've conversed with in the past few years, this sort of thing is not something they've ever mentioned to me as an annoyance. In this specific example, dot dot dot is - both in written form, and when spelled out - a convention to mark an omission. Also, it will depend on the screenreader's specific verbosity settings, in many cases, whether this is read out or simply replaced with an appropriately long pause of silence. In general terms, what I'm trying to convey here is: it's easy to pick up a screenreader as a sighted user, do some testing, and come to some conclusions, all with the right intentions of course, like oh, this must be annoying for those users...but, not being a blind user who uses that technology day in, day out, it's also possible to draw some erroneous conclusions, or to seek absolute, black and white maxims (this should never be done) where there are really just opinions, personal preferences, and lots of shades of gray. Hm... you're right here. Maybe I am jumping with conclusions... The good thing is that we can talk about that, so I (and people like me) can change my opinion or false belief... The problem is, there is not much accent on usability and accesability in our country, most of webdevelopers are thinking like It only matters that the application or website functions as I want... So thank you WSG for this list, where we can share knowledge and get some, so we can pass it to others... :) If we only had a legal obligations like some other countries :( but we don't cya! Mihael *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
