Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.
On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Dave Cross wrote: Which is the ISO standard (number 8601) for dates for a very good reason. Dave... [who actually prefers MMDD because it sorts numerically] ISO8601 allows MMDD too (IIRC). Tony
ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.
At 11:43 20/03/2001 -0500, Dave Cross wrote: Which is the ISO standard (number 8601) for dates for a very good reason. I thought I'd look this up, but the BSI want 50 quid for a copy. I appreciate this is how they make money to fund the standards work but it seems a tad steep for the casual viewer such as myself. Anyone know of a free online resource ? Simon Cheepskate
Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.
On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Simon Wilcox wrote: I thought I'd look this up, but the BSI want 50 quid for a copy. I appreciate this is how they make money to fund the standards work but it seems a tad steep for the casual viewer such as myself. Anyone know of a free online resource ? Useful Summary: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-time.html Standard: ftp://ftp.qsl.net/pub/g1smd/8601v03.pdf Google is Good[tm]. TOny
Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.
At Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:37:32 + (GMT), AEF [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Simon Wilcox wrote: I thought I'd look this up, but the BSI want 50 quid for a copy. I appreciate this is how they make money to fund the standards work but it seems a tad steep for the casual viewer such as myself. Anyone know of a free online resource ? Useful Summary: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-time.html Standard: ftp://ftp.qsl.net/pub/g1smd/8601v03.pdf Google is Good[tm]. Looks like you _can_ get it directly from ISO by going to: http://www.iso.ch/markete/8601.pdf Dave...
Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.
At 06:42 21/03/2001 -0500, Dave Cross wrote: At Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:37:32 + (GMT), AEF [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Useful Summary: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-time.html Standard: ftp://ftp.qsl.net/pub/g1smd/8601v03.pdf This one seems to be a second edition although the filename infers third. Google is Good[tm]. doh ! will now write 100 times - "use all your resources before bothering other people" Looks like you _can_ get it directly from ISO by going to: http://www.iso.ch/markete/8601.pdf This seems to be the first version. Quite a lot seems to have changed between versions judging by the markup on the qsl.net version above. I agree wholeheartedly with the observation on the IDFC page Dave posted - "Seems pretty daft to me - if you want a worldwide standard to be adopted it should be freely available to everyone who could possibly want to use it" /rant Simon.
RE: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.
This site seems to confirm it tho: http://www.saqqara.demon.co.uk/datefmt.htm Hmmm, 11 reasons to use this format: 5 of these reasons are "Because it makes it easier for me to write software if you do" which don't carry much weight IMNSHO However, in the spirit of standardisation, I'd like to suggest: 1. Please can we stop this silly 'firstname lastname' format. The most significant string (family name) should come first, with a standard delimiter (comma) before the first name (which should come last). This is what bibliographies and libraries have used for years, so should everyone else. Please use: LASTNAME, [FIRSTNAME|FIRST INITIAL] 2. The address format is a real mess, being least significant string first, and no clear guide as to whether comma or newline or both are the acceptable delimiters. Also, the location of the postcode string is arbitrary, and in any case the postcode repeats information and is often redundant. However, since postcodes can be easily fed into computer programs, and are language independant, they should replace all that other stuff. Please use: ISO planet code, ISO country code, POSTCODE, Building Number[, apartment number][, business name] Note also that country code is compulsory. In the past post offices assumed that addresses without a country code were local and assumed the 'current' country as the one required for delivery. This sort of assumption landed us in the Y2K mess where people foolishly assumed that a year was in the 'current' century, for some silly reason. Note too that ISO planet code has been introduced so that when we colonise mars, we will not be left with 3 billion ambiguous addresses! What a mess that would be! As you see I have really learned from the Y2K thing, which caused such massive chaos here on earth when all the computers stopped working and the planes fell out of the sky etc etc. I hope others will take these suggestions to heart, Peterson, Jonathan Earth, UK, W1H 6LT, 40, Ideashub 2001-03-21
Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.
"Jonathan Peterson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This site seems to confirm it tho: http://www.saqqara.demon.co.uk/datefmt.htm Hmmm, 11 reasons to use this format: 5 of these reasons are "Because it makes it easier for me to write software if you do" which don't carry much weight IMNSHO However, in the spirit of standardisation, I'd like to suggest: 1. Please can we stop this silly 'firstname lastname' format. The most significant string (family name) should come first, with a standard delimiter (comma) before the first name (which should come last). This is what bibliographies and libraries have used for years, so should everyone else. Please use: LASTNAME, [FIRSTNAME|FIRST INITIAL] 2. The address format is a real mess, being least significant string first, and no clear guide as to whether comma or newline or both are the acceptable delimiters. Also, the location of the postcode string is arbitrary, and in any case the postcode repeats information and is often redundant. However, since postcodes can be easily fed into computer programs, and are language independant, they should replace all that other stuff. Please use: ISO planet code, ISO country code, POSTCODE, Building Number[, apartment number][, business name] Note also that country code is compulsory. In the past post offices assumed that addresses without a country code were local and assumed the 'current' country as the one required for delivery. This sort of assumption landed us in the Y2K mess where people foolishly assumed that a year was in the 'current' century, for some silly reason. Can I commend ISO 11180 to you? -- Piers
Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.
On Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 11:23:59AM +, Simon Wilcox wrote: At 11:43 20/03/2001 -0500, Dave Cross wrote: Which is the ISO standard (number 8601) for dates for a very good reason. I thought I'd look this up, but the BSI want 50 quid for a copy. I appreciate this is how they make money to fund the standards work but it seems a tad steep for the casual viewer such as myself. Anyone know of a free online resource ? Not for standards in general, but that particular one is at http://www.iso.ch/markete/8601.pdf -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david The voices said it's a good day to clean my weapons.
Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.
On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Marcel Grunauer wrote: Jonathan Peterson writes: Please use: ISO planet code, ISO country code, POSTCODE, Building Number[, apartment number][, business name] [snippage] Peterson, Jonathan Earth, UK, W1H 6LT, 40, Ideashub 2001-03-21 That works for the UK, but in Austria, post codes also require a street name, since post codes are too broad to identify individual blocks. And what if the Martians have completely different systems? What about coordinates of things moving through space (i.e. on their way to Mars)? I suggest introducing the concepts of "unimatrix", "grid" and "node". These can be extended into n-dimensional space. bahhh .. now you've let the genie out of its Klein Bottle. I suggest introducing the concept of a large blank form field and allowing the address to be in an appropriate local format ;) -- Robin Szemeti The box said "requires windows 95 or better" So I installed Linux!
Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.
On Tue Mar 20 15:13:07 2001, David H. Adler wrote: On Tue, Mar 20, 2001 at 05:34:06PM +, David Cantrell wrote: You are Michael Schwern, and I claim your m4d h41rkut skillz. Oh, get real. Schwern has *no* relation to haircuts *at all*... - Forwarded message from Michael G Schwern [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:06:26 + From: Michael G Schwern [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Marty Pauley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: FW: london-pm RE: Pointless, Badly-Written Module. Tell them if they keep talking shit about me I'll have to personally come down and CUT THEIR HAIR! http://us.imdb.com/Title?0103645 And if anyone happens to have a spare lifetime they could always implement http://archive.develooper.com/perl-qa%40perl.org/msg00148.html -- Michael G. Schwern [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/ Perl6 Quality Assurance [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kwalitee Is Job One List context isn't dangerous. Misquoting Gibson is dangerous. - End forwarded message - -- Marty
Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.
Quoting Jonathan Peterson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Please use: ISO planet code, ISO country code, POSTCODE, Building Number[, apartment number][, business name] Please move to one of the former USSR countries, they write their addresses there like that. http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/postal.html Makes for interesting reading about posting to anywhere. Cheers, -- Merijn Broeren| Some days it just don't pay to chew through Software Geek | the restraints in the morning... |
Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.
On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, you wrote: Human postmen can do amazing things, like deliver letters addresses to "John Smith, the house with the blue door, near the flower shop in the main street in Newtownards". blimey .. he really _IS_ a martian .. must be ... down here on Earth the postmen can't even deliver it with the correct address on including post code .. so they must be martian postmen you are talking about ... -- Robin Szemeti The box said "requires windows 95 or better" So I installed Linux!
Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.
LASTNAME, [FIRSTNAME|FIRST INITIAL] and if you don't have a last name??? I have three friends who are surnameless... their credit cards have a "." as a surname because the bank computers couldn't handle a lack of surname.
Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.
On 2001, Mar, 21, Wed Pauley, Marley wrote:
That would work if 'significant' was well defined in relation to names,
but it isn't. It works with dates because 'significant' has a well
defined meaning in relation to numerical quantities.
I wonder what Larry thinks about this.
Later.
Mark.
--
print "\n",map{my$a="\n"if(length$_6);' 'x(36-length($_)/2)."$_\n$a"} (
Name = 'Mark Fowler',Title = 'Technology Developer' ,
Firm = 'Profero Ltd',Web = 'http://www.profero.com/' ,
Email = '[EMAIL PROTECTED]', Phone = '+44 (0) 20 7700 9960' )
Falco!
Oopsy daisy $job--; #not my fault! If anyone wants to employ me please say so. Will wear suit for food. I do management strategy marchitecture stuff. Or Perl if necessary. Or Solaris sysadmin if desperate. Laters, Jon Jonathan PetersonIdeas Hub Ltd (t) +44 (0)20 7487 1310 www.ideashub.com
Re: Perl Training Courses
At Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:19:57 + (GMT), Mark Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One of my collegues asked me about Perl training courses in the U.K. To be honest, we have no idea what is good, what is bad, etc, and so I suggested asking you lot. We've been looking through a Learning Tree catalog, but that's purely because they're the last company to send us some dead tree on the matter. As far as I can see, none of the scheduled courses in the UK are much cop. What do you need? If you can get three or four people interested in doing the same course and can supply a suitable room, then Iterative would be only too happy to help you out. Dave...
Re: Perl Training Courses
On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Mark Fowler wrote: On 2001, 21, Mar, Wed Stevens, Michael wrote: On Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 04:19:57PM +, Mark Fowler wrote: One of my collegues asked me about Perl training courses in the U.K. Wasn't there some kerazy scheme to get london.pm doing courses? Sorry. Perl training in *programming* not perl training in *drinking* ;-) Good programmers aren't necessarily good teachers. MBM -- Matthew Byng-Maddick Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 20 8980 5714 (Home) http://colondot.net/ Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 7956 613942 (Mobile) perl -e 'print reverse split//,"\n.rekcah lreP rehtona tsuJ"' perl -e '$_="\n.rekcah lreP rehtona tsuJ";m!$!;print$while($`=~m,.$,s)'
RE: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.
[Continuing off-topic - not a surprise on London.pm, I'm sure (I thought Mr. Cantrell's [ot] the other day denoted 'on-topic' :--)] From: Marty Pauley [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] In some countries the 'family name' is actually defined by your job, location, or other mutable property. It used to be like that in Europe. Hence names like Smith, Fletcher, Skinner, Mercer, etc. etc. (inc. Bowman). On a related note, many Jewish surnames are of a similar, central European origin (the likes of Goldblum (Goldflower), Spielberg (Playhill), Birnbaum (Peartree) etc.) is that Jews didn't have/use family names (at that time at least)and, following a change in the law (those Germans again), had to adopt family names, hence the preponderance of names like those above). In other countries the family name changes each generation, so taking "Jonathan Peterson" as an example: his father would be "Peter something" and his children would be "something Jonathanson". The same happened in Scotland/Ireland/etc. - Mc/Mac literally means 'Son of', hence names like MacDonald and Donaldson are essentially the same name. Irish republicans sometimes reverse the anglicisation of names, hence the likes of Sean MacStiofain, a senior IRA man, who was originally born in London as John Stevenson. In Iceland they append 'son' for sons and 'dottir' for daughters - hence Magnus Magnusson is the son of Magnus, whilst Sally Magnusson would, in Iceland at least, be Sally Magnusdottir. Andrew.
Re: Perl Training Courses
Mark Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is what I think they would need to learn: a) Get hit over the head a bit with my, local, strict, good programming practices. Maybe a quick refresher on how arrays, hashes and suchlike really work. (In terms of passing between subroutines and stuff, how doing this 'casts' one into the other, the difference between array and scalar context.) Maybe a quick refresher on references. They should know all of this already, but I'd like a course to make *sure* they do, if you see what I mean b) This is how to get objects from CPAN, these are a few critical classes that you need to know about. E.g. this is Data::Dumper, it's fscking useful. LWP::Simple is your friend. Etc, etc. Something of a quick tour. c) Get to grips with writing decent objects. E.g. this is how bless works, etc, etc. This is what OO is about, how @ISA works, etc. With examples that are relevant. d) Debugging -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Interim CTO, web server farms, technical strategy
Re: Perl Training Courses
On 21 Mar 2001, Dave Hodgkinson wrote: d) Debugging Amen MBM -- Matthew Byng-Maddick Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 20 8980 5714 (Home) http://colondot.net/ Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 7956 613942 (Mobile) perl -e 'print reverse split//,"\n.rekcah lreP rehtona tsuJ"' perl -e '$_="\n.rekcah lreP rehtona tsuJ";m!$!;print$while($`=~m,.$,s)'
Re: Perl Training Courses
On Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 04:31:06PM -, Matthew Jones wrote: What do you need? If you can get three or four people interested in doing the same course and can supply a suitable room, then Iterative would be only too happy to help you out. I'm interested if there are courses on offer. There's only so much you can do with just yourself and a pile of O'Reilly books. The mind boggles ;) jp
RE: Perl Training Courses
I'm interested if there are courses on offer. There's only so much you can do with just yourself and a pile of O'Reilly books. I'd love to help, but we're not in a position to offer public courses yet - the cost of hiring rooms and PCs is too prohibitive. Who said anything about doing them in meatspace? But fair enough. I was only asking from a "if you're doing them anyway" sort of perspective. However, please *do* give us a nod if enough interest is raised for you to start offering them. -- matt "'scuse me trooper, will you be needing any packets today? hey, baby, don't be pulling on my socket, okay?"
RE: Perl Training Courses
On 2001, 21, Mar, Wed, Cross, Dave wrote: At Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:19:57 + (GMT), Mark Fowler wrote: One of my collegues asked me about Perl training courses in the U.K. As far as I can see, none of the scheduled courses in the UK are much cop. What do you need? If you can get three or four people interested in doing the same course and can supply a suitable room, then Iterative would be only too happy to help you out. This is what I think they would need to learn: a) Get hit over the head a bit with my, local, strict, good programming practices. Maybe a quick refresher on how arrays, hashes and suchlike really work. (In terms of passing between subroutines and stuff, how doing this 'casts' one into the other, the difference between array and scalar context.) Maybe a quick refresher on references. They should know all of this already, but I'd like a course to make *sure* they do, if you see what I mean b) This is how to get objects from CPAN, these are a few critical classes that you need to know about. E.g. this is Data::Dumper, it's fscking useful. LWP::Simple is your friend. Etc, etc. Something of a quick tour. c) Get to grips with writing decent objects. E.g. this is how bless works, etc, etc. This is what OO is about, how @ISA works, etc. With examples that are relevant. See what I mean? Not completely basic stuff but a course for programmers who aren't really 'in sync' with perl who just need a little prodding in the right direction. Kind of an "Effective Perl" course. Sounds like about three days? Can do. How many people? Dave... -- The information contained in this communication is confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender and delete the original message or any copy of it from your computer system.
RE: Perl Training Courses
I'm interested if there are courses on offer. There's only so much you can do with just yourself and a pile of O'Reilly books. The mind boggles ;) No, not the *mind*! ;) Oh, I forgot to mention the Prairie Squid (de-beaked, of course). -- matt "'scuse me trooper, will you be needing any packets today? hey, baby, don't be pulling on my socket, okay?"
Re: Perl Training Courses
On Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 04:19:57PM +, Mark Fowler wrote: One of my collegues asked me about Perl training courses in the U.K. To be honest, we have no idea what is good, what is bad, etc, and so I suggested asking you lot. NetThink will be running some courses soon. Don't want to advertise too much on list; mail me offlist for details. -- A formal parsing algorithm should not always be used. -- D. Gries
Re: Balding Badly-Coiffed Hackers (was Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.)
On Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 02:49:17PM -, Jonathan Stowe wrote: What are we saying here, Michael Schwern is that Alien Drag Queen ? You know... that would explain a lot.. :-) dha -- David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/ ... we didn't know what the hell we were doing, but we did it loud. - Andy Partidge on early XTC
Re: Perl Training Courses
I know you said this:
Mark Fowler wrote:
I'd like a course to make *sure* they do
but courses aside, books are still good. In particular, the Andrew L Johnson
book ("Elements of Programming with Perl", as rec'd by davorg) is really
handy when it comes to being:
a) [...] hit over the head a bit with my, local, strict, good programming
practices. Maybe a quick refresher on how arrays, hashes and suchlike
really work. (In terms of passing between subroutines and stuff, how
doing this 'casts' one into the other, the difference between array
and scalar context.) Maybe a quick refresher on references.
It has lots of nice diagrams and lucid explanations of all these concepts.
And hey, you've got to love a book that says things like, "Perl solves this
problem in a very relaxed manner".
/ me delurks - don't worry, you won't see much of me round here :)
--
celia
black is the colour, silence is the music, spanish is the way to walk
Re: Perl Training Courses
Mark Fowler wrote: One of my collegues asked me about Perl training courses in the U.K. To be honest, we have no idea what is good, what is bad, etc, and so I suggested asking you lot. The London Open Source Convention will have Perl tutorials. If only I could say precisely when it would be, I'd do a much better job of plugging it. It's the heisenconvention! You can know where but not when, or vice-versa! Seriously, we were surprised when another conference announced itself over top of our dates, so we're trying to work out how best to deal with that (move, reposition, whatever). Never ever think conferences are easy. Nat
Re: Perl Training Courses
On Thu, Mar 22, 2001 at 12:15:17AM -, Dean S Wilson wrote: Anyone submitting anything for this? http://www.ukuug.org/events/linux2001/ Yup, I've been approached for some tutorials for that. -- It's a short step from using alt.binaries.warez.protocol-droids.c3p0 to Palpatine seeing a post along the lines of: "CA|\| NE1 0N Th]5 BB0ARD T3Ll M3 H0w 2 GeT KeWL S]Th P0WeRZ!?!?!?!??!?" The rest is, well, a couple more overly-hyped ILM graphics demos. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] in ASR
Re: Perl Training Courses
On Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 10:22:34PM +, celia wrote: / me delurks - don't worry, you won't see much of me round here :) But... why?? dha -- David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/ philosophy department - you don't have to be to work here, but it helps
Re: Perl Training Courses
David H. Adler wrote: On Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 10:22:34PM +, celia wrote: / me delurks - don't worry, you won't see much of me round here :) But... why?? Why I delurked, or why you won't see much of me on this list? The answer to both is that I'll only post if I have something useful to contribute, and seeing as I'm new to perl, that won't be too often. Hm, seems I've just broken my own rule :) -- celia black is the colour, silence is the music, spanish is the way to walk
