[LUTE] Re: 12 Course Lutes
But on the other hand, it does seem plausible to me that builders experimented with adding one extra course to 11 course lutes, before they came up with the bass rider. Maybe Baron played one such experimental instrument? Are On 2014-05-18 18:07, Mathias Rösel wrote: When I think of 12 course lutes, I think of the ones described by Mace, with two peg boxes. But the lute Baron is holding looks like a regular 11 course lute with an extra course, right? That's right. Seems like there were two types of 12 course lutes. As regards surviving lutes, I'm only aware of one type of 12c lutes, viz. the double-headed lute. As regards musical sources, 12 courses are demanded by Reusner, as mentioned by Rob, and e.g. in D-ROu ms. Mus. Saec. XVII.18.54 (dated around 1670). Even a composer as late as Lauffensteiner, who actually wrote for the 11c lute, requires 12 courses in some of his pieces. I wonder if double-headed lutes were still played around 1720. Or did they already use a bass rider earlier than Weiss? There is a lot of repertoire for it, though arguably none of it 'big' repertoire. There is a little bit in the Wemyss ms, Panmure 4, and there is a large number of German pieces - The 12c lute seems to have flourished during the same period, roughly, as transitional tunings. Both are independent of each other, but I like to link one to the other, playing music in French flat and sharp (and flat-save-the-3rd-sharp, of course) tunings on the 12c lute in Mace's pitch. Quite a few pieces surviving (1.500 pieces, or so I seem to have read somewhere). As for continuo, the instrument is closer to an 11c, but suitable for smaller ensembles. If talk is about the double headed lute, it seems clear that four extended bass courses on the second pegbox are intended for enhanced volume (Jacques Gaultier is remembered in the Burwell lute tutor for his thundering playing), which makes these theorboed lutes suitable for thorough bass playing. 12c lutes still are lutes, though, and not Italian chitarroni. So, I'd guess lute song is their home area (may I add that I've found this true for German early 17th century lute songs by Heinrich Albert), viol ensemble may work, but orchestra jobs should be avoided.. My 12c lute is a copy of the Wolff lute in Füssen. I had it built in its surviving size, i.e. 66 cm VSL. You may say, that's a tiny instrument, but the belly yields a surprisingly strong sound. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 12 Course Lutes
When I think of 12 course lutes, I think of the ones described by Mace, with two peg boxes. But the lute Baron is holding looks like a regular 11 course lute with an extra course, right? Seems like there were two types of 12 course lutes. Are On 2014-05-17 20:01, Rob MacKillop wrote: I used to have one. There is a lot of repertoire for it, though arguably none of it 'big' repertoire. There is a little bit in the Wemyss ms, Panmure 4, and there is a large number of German pieces - Reusner, for example: the printed pieces in his books are for eleven courses, but the hand-written extras include a twelfth course. Many German mss (including Weiss) have music which uses just twelve courses, enough to make me wonder if there was in Germany a 12c instrument in currency. As for continuo, the instrument is closer to an 11c, but suitable for smaller ensembles. If you are serious about continuo playing of English songs, then perhaps an English theorbo would be better suited. I often felt one more course would give me the great 13c repertoire, while one fewer would be more apt for the French repertoire. It's a bit of an in-betweenie, so to speak. One word of warning, that extended peghead can be a nightmare when putting new strings on...I shed a few tears! Rob www.robmackillop.net On 17 May 2014, at 18:08, BENJAMIN NARVEY luthi...@gmail.com wrote: Dear All, Does anybody on this list have any experience with 12c lutes? I am considering getting one if I can get the funds together and I would be grateful for any counsel drawn from actual experience. I have never even laid finger to fret on one of these lutes before, so it is a bit of a leap of faith. That said, there is clearly so much music that could be played in either vieux ton or nouveau ton on this lute, and I think it is the ultimate historical continuo beast for so much 17c repertoire, in particular English music (Purcell, Lawes, etc.) Also: string lengths. I know they can be very small (around 55cm) to very big (perhaps 76cm or so). Any suggestions? I am kind of torn between having perhaps a smaller solo instrument and a larger one that I could use for accompaniment. Any thoughts? Best wishes, Benjamin -- [1]www.luthiste.com t +33 (0) 1 44 27 03 44 p/m +33 (0) 6 71 79 98 98 -- References 1. http://www.luthiste.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bach on the baroque lute
Wayne, please remove this Igor guy from the list as soon as possible. Are There are moments when Val's playing has moved me, and left me thinking, 'Why can't I play like that?' you must be a comedian or something ?! Igor Moronski -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Logy and archlute
Hei! I found the mail where Tim Crawford mentions Logy for archlute. Here it is. Are -- Forwarded message -- Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 10:50:22 + From: Tim Crawford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: baroque lute [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: the archlute in Germany There are indeed two or three pieces near the beginning of the Goess theorbo book which seem to be for archlute, including a nice Ciacona. Apart from that, I *think* there may be one or two in one of the 'Wolckenstein' lute MSS (Nuremberg or Berlin) which was begun in Parma in 1650. An English lute MS (c1706-10) now at the Library of Congress, which was compiled in Utrecht (Holland), Hanover and Hamburg probably for the same person as 'Lord Danby's Lute Book' or his younger brother, contains one or two pieces for archlute, including one by Losy. Tim On 17/3/03 11:45 am, Are Vidar Boye Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Francisco and the rest of you! During a dicussion on this list a long time ago, someone said that some of the pieces in the so called Goess theorbo book really are for archlute. I will see if I still have that mail somewhere. mvh Are Vidar Boye Hansen On Sun, 16 Mar 2003, Francisco Valdivia wrote: Hi: I'm doing in the month of may a series of concerts of German Chamber Music before Bach (Rosenmüller, Schmelzer, Buxtehude, Walther and Biber). I'll be playing continuo with the archlute, and should play a solo piece. I know some pieces by Reusner on the 11 course, but I'd rather not carry two instruments, if possible. So, I was wondering if there's any music written for archlute in Germany for that time, that is, in old tuning. If anyone could give any information about this, I'd be very grateful. I would avoid making transcription from eleven course repertorie, since it tends to be very idiomatic and I'm afraid it wouldn't work on the archlute. Thanks in advance for any help. Francisco Valdivia -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Reusner and archlute/theorbo
And here is the mail where our Mathias Rösel mentions a couple of theorbo/archlute pieces by Reusner. Which pieces are you refering to, Mathias? Are -- Forwarded message -- Date: 12 Oct 2005 07:07 GMT From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: baroque Lutelist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Reusner Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: I am curious although I have the 2 books of 1667 1676 by Reusner, are there any internet files in Fronimo or pdf of Reusner? Thanks in advance. don't know about internet, but there are one or two pieces by Reusner for the theorbo (or archlute) in Goess/Theorbo. Just to mention. Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo
And here is the mail where our Mathias Rösel mentions a couple of theorbo/archlute pieces by Reusner. Which pieces are you refering to, Mathias? Are Source: Theorbenbuch Goëss: Ebenthal, Grafen Goëss'sche Primogenitur-Fideikommiss-Bibliothek, Ms. Theorbe, fol. 44-45 (= p. 87-89). There are three pieces, viz. a gavotte and two courantes, all of them in A minor. The broken style of the pieces suggests, that Reusner jr. is Thank you! Are -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo
Obviously, it's good to know about the two or three Losy's pieces and a couple of Reusner's one transfered to theorbo. But I hope you are not going to say the d-m lute, after this discovery, is practically useless and everything can be reintabulated to an archlute now - ? Of course not! D-m lute is still my main instrument, I just find it interesting that d-m music was intabulated for archlute. Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Weiss, Logy and archlute [was] Re: Santino is Gebrauchsmusik?
convenient... This way all - really nearly the ALL! - the baroque solo-continuo stuff is playable by an archlute! Yepp, that's true. I tried Logy and Weiss grand staff transcriptions with the archlute and found them quite feasable. I think I read somewhere that there actually is a courante by Logy in an 18th century archlute version. In the much debated letter where Weiss describes his continuo lute, he also claims that neither archlute nor theorbo is any good for galanterie pieces. Of course, he was wrong... :-) Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Reusner Scordatura
I'm thinking perhaps the E minor scordatura is what Jakob Lindberg uses for both the e minor and major lute works... E major is a rare key in lute music anyway. Apart from Bach, I know of only two sources where it appears. I can add a sarabande by Lauffensteiner. Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Giacomo Gorzanis' musical circle?
At 10:58 AM 8/4/2008, Arthur Ness wrote: I think one of the French 17th-century lutenists wrote a work in all keys. Bocquet??? That is interesting! Of course there is also Falckenhagen's prelude in all keys. Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: El Gordo
It's a great pic. let's be thankful that there are so many great pics. But what I like is the Thumb Middle It is so present, so real. Could it be that this thumb middle position was the common way to play bass lutes? The Bakfark picture also shows him playing thumb middle on a large lute. Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c
Reusner, Esaias, Neue Lauten-Fruchte 1676. In the mannuscript additions in the copy now housed at Staatsbibliothek Preussischer Kulturbesitz, Berlin (Mus.ms. 18380) are pieces for a 12-course lute. Yes, on p. 58 (i. e. fol. 27v) starts a suite in D major. At some places, a 12th course is required for a full B minor chord. However, then standard D minor tuning is used. Even a bit earlier, Rostock XVII-54 (compiled in southwest Germany around 1670, probably) requires a 12th course at some places. Unfortunately, mention of a 12th course does not allow conclusions regarding the construction of the related lute. IOW, 12th course doesn't necessarily imply double headed lute. I think Per Kjetil Farstad mentions that the famous picture of Ernst Gottlieb Baron shows him holding a 12-course lute. His lute is definetly not a double headed one. Are -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: six-course guitar
What about Boccherini's quintets? I think Jose Miguel Moreno has recorded them on a six-couse guitar. I have also heard Rolf Lislevand perform the Fandango quintet on a five-course baroque guitar, and it worked. Maybe its even HIP. Are My reading of Fernandiere has got me interested in the 6c guitar. I was lucky enough to play an original Pages, owned by Jim Westbrook, and thought 'Hmm...I fancy one of these!' - but put it on the back burner. The question is - what repertoire exists specifically for it? We know that Sor and Aguado used them when they were young men. Moretti, of course - but not repertoire pieces. And of course the string quartets plus guitar of Boccherini. Has anyone here got a 6c? Rob MacKillop www.songoftherose.co.uk -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c
Hi Mathias, Edward and the rest of you, you might find this article interesting: http://www.tabulatura.com/Mestweb.htm I wonder how common these small baroque lutes were... Thank you for pointing at Kenneth Sparr's article, which is a must-read on this field. As for your wondering, there's no hard evidence available (except the Mest lute and the Wolf lute), as far as I can see. Most 12c double headed lutes, according to Schulze-Kurz (who wrote on The Lute and its Tunings During the 17th Century), were probably rebuilt and converted later. IMHO, Mace's tuning seems reasonable. His 1st course is G, and lutes in G more often than not have a mensur of 55-60 cm. So its e-minor tuning, then? Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c
So its e-minor tuning, then? Otherwise, it was called French flat: C - D - E - F | G - A // B - e - a - c' - e' - g'. Of course! I forgot that French flat was Thomas' favourite. Kenneth Sparr's article has a list of tabulatures for 12-course lute. One of the items is: Reusner, Esaias, Neue Lauten-Fruchte 1676. In the mannuscript additions in the copy now housed at Staatsbibliothek Preussischer Kulturbesitz, Berlin (Mus.ms. 18380) are pieces for a 12-course lute. It seems like the 12 course lute enjoyed some popularity in Northern Germany. Are -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c
Hi Mathias, Edward and the rest of you, you might find this article interesting: http://www.tabulatura.com/Mestweb.htm I wonder how common these small baroque lutes were... Are Dear Mathias, No, I have not gone in that direction. There seems to be relatively new interest in the topic, as Paul Beier is going to record a CD of music of Reusner on 12 course. Just yesterday, I received a new CD by Anthony Bailes.. Old Gaultiers Nigtinghall. He plays a small Frei, with a Dutch like head, 12 course. The recording contains music of Mezangeau, Pierre Gaultier, Thomas Mace, and Bouvier. All pieces are in transitional tunings, and I like it very much=2E Good luck, with this. It is something I am interested in. ed At 06:59 AM 5/30/2008 +, Mathias R=F6sel wrote: Dear Collected Wisdom, is there someone on the list who is willing to share their experiences with double headed 12c lutes and related repertoire? I'm just about to enter that flowery meadow. What I'm interested in is - choice: What made you choose that type of lute (that luthier)? - measurements: Am I right in assuming that small mensur (about 55 cm VSL) works better? - inferentially, luthiers: Who built your instrument and when? - tunings: which one do you prefer? Any comments appreciated! -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1473 - Release Date: 5/29/2008 7:53 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 --
[LUTE] Re: Lute songs
Lute can be simply accompanyment, but it can also be collaborator. Because the human voice is considered the most perfect instrument, I prefer the lute! Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi concerto
Does anyone know of an online source for the Vivaldi concerto? In D on the guitar, I don't know what key the original is. I have pictures of the original manuscript in Jpeg format. Is anyone interested? I am interested! Do you know where I can find the other lute works of Vivaldi as well? Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Kapsberger
From the comments, by the man himself: ... it's an arciliuto in a with single strings, which was a pretty common practice in Italy in 17th century. What is the evidence for this? Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Longest 6c piece?
Vincenzo Galilei wrote 100 variations over the Romanesca, which would take more than one hour to perform. Are IIRC, there's a Bakfark intabulation that runs around 18 minutes. I heard Jacob Herringman play part of it once, but that was some years ago and I don't recall the name. Guy -Original Message- From: Rob MacKillop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 11:53 AM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Longest 6c piece? I've just been listening to Bart Roose's very good recording of music by Neusidler (www.passacaille.be) - it has raised the profile of Neuslider for me at least. Anyway, there is one track which clocks in at 12 minutes 38 seconds - Ein sehr kunstreicher Preambel oder Fantasey. Is this the longest 6c piece? Depends how fast you play it, of course! I'm not used to hearing such long pieces on the 6c. Very nice piece, by the way. I usually get very restless listening to 6c recordings - so many short pieces. This makes a change. Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Heinichen for theorbo
I'm to play the Heinichen concerto in D for flute, oboe, violins, cello, theorbo and bc (Seibel 226) next month. Anybody ever did this before and remember what instrument he/she used? It says tiorba in the autograph. The range is A1 till a'. C and C# are both needed, as are E and E-flat, F and F#, and G and G#. Looks more like gallichon than theorbo as we know it, I'd say? I have heard that they have been recorded by Timothy Burris on a German theorbo in d-minor tuning. Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: All open
It puzzled me too, until I realised you must have been playing an instrument in G. The strangest chord I have ever seen was at the start of The Creation by a baroque composer - I forget which. To represent chaos, the first chord had the numbers 7 6 5 4 3 2, or possibly 8 7 6 5 4 3 2. Can't go wrong, really. Can you find out who this composer was? I must hear this music! Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: All open
The strangest chord I have ever seen was at the start of The Creation by a baroque composer - I forget which. To represent chaos, the first chord had the numbers 7 6 5 4 3 2, or possibly 8 7 6 5 4 3 2. Can't go wrong, really. Les Elemens by Jean Fiery Rebel Just got this. Thank you Howard! Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Forqueray
Very ineresting performance I think I would choose the theorbo over the archlute because of the desire to keep the accompaniment a bit lower. Also there are an awful lot of doublings of the harmony. I can't see doing that. But mainly, if I played this on the archlute, I would play the whole piece, as a lute solo. Great idea! Maybe I will do that myself... There is evidence for single strings historicallly, What are the sources for single archlute strings? To me, an archlute just sounds dead without double strings... Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ode for St Cecilia's Day
Mozart added a lute part to the flute ad libitum in the end: more broken chords. I guess this is Mozart's collected output of lute music!? Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Mercure
Hei! I'm curious about that french lutenist from the XVII, Mercure. There is a beutiful sarabande in the MS Milleran, without name, and the same is included in the Balcarres MS. I know, the french CNRS published his work, but I don't have the book. There are at least two Mercures, one, often callen Mercure d'Orleans from the renaissance lute repertoire - you will find quite a lot pieces by him in the Schele Ms., of which you own a beautiful facsimile, I believe ;-) , and then the later, baroque Mercure. According to Mary Burwell's tutor he lived for a long time in England. If I am not mistaken, John/Jean Mercure was appointed lutenist at Charles' court when Robert Dowland died in 1641. Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: piece of the month revived
Is it possible that the Spanish Pavan actually is a spanish vihuela piece? Are Dear All, I have revived the Piece of the Month feature on my site. It now includes MP3 files. No reverb added this time - compare them with the files on my recordings page and let me know which you prefer: www.luteshop.co.uk/month/pieceofthemonth.htm www.luteshop.co.uk/recordings.html Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: G Theorbo or movie prop?
All that said, the answer to the original question is that the lute player is really playing a real liuto attiorbato, in sync. I don't think it's Lislevand, because he plays left-handed Ehm... No, he doesnt... But he does play a very small right-handed theorbo. The reason he chose a small instrument is simply practical. A small instrument is easier to bring on an airplane! Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G? Plus some guidelines
A small price to pay for being able to play a three-note chord over middle C in first position? That's the point and the most promising bit. However the price seems to me not small, indeed, and therefore my quest for someone maybe experienced. Play an archlute! ;-) Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Brescianello (was) Re: mandora/gallichon music
His library of music, the largest to survive intact from the 18th century, has some 300 pieces for lute, alone. The library was inherited by his daughter Princess Luise Frederica, an accomplished lutenist and coloratura, who brought the collection to Rostock (it is now in the University Library). It demonstrates the currency of lute and lute music at the Stuttgart court. Can you tell us more about this manuscript? I have heard that it is an important source of late lute music, but I would love to learn more! Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G?
As you imply: I guess it's because they can't be bothered to learn to read on an A instrument A lot of people prefer to work in those areas they're most familiar with. We have modern editions of Italian music in French tablature, because French tab is the one that a lot of people feel more at home with. We tend to stay with the techniques we're most familiar with, and in some cases we tend to stay with the types of music we're most familiar with. Someone (a most renowned and magisterial figure in the lute world ;-) ;-) ;-)) said to me last year: Baroque lute is late-period and decadent. I don't accept it. Another equally renowned luter told me last year, if it's not renaissance music I don't play it. It's not laziness; just a reluctance to go beyond what's familiar. If people are obcessive about renaissance music that is fine, but I am sceptic about publishing italian music in french tabulature. There is so much interesting music out there which is still unpublished, so to me its just a waste of time and effort to translate italian music to french tabulature. Its not difficult to learn to read italian tabulature, and I consider it laziness not to try it. Are (about to learn german tabulature) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Kapsberger's lute (was: banchieri and the Theorbo in G)
I had a quick look through the libro primo di lauto, but could not find any indication of more than 10 courses. You must be mixing up the primo di chitarone. No, the person who told me was very specific that it was the libro primo di lauto, and that this is the first source for 11-course lute. But I guess he was wrong, then. ;-) Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Kapsberger's lute (was: banchieri and the Theorbo in G)
Yeah, and he was probably right! On second check, page 29 ms. 27 shows an 11th course? !? Which piece? Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: banchieri and the Theorbo in G
I'm wondering how many of the early publications for a 'theorbo' (various spellings) or chitarrone were actually for large 10c bass lutes with re-entrant tunings? I wonder about this too! As far as I know, Kapsberger's Libro primo for chitarrone is for a 10-course instrument. Are PS: I think it was Rob who earlier suggested that Rolf Lislevand uses nylgut. He doesnt. He uses all gut and thumb-in on all his instruments, including baroque lute and theorbo. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Kapseberger's lute (was: banchieri and the Theorbo in G)
I'm wondering how many of the early publications for a 'theorbo' (various spellings) or chitarrone were actually for large 10c bass lutes with re-entrant tunings? I wonder about this too! As far as I know, Kapsberger's Libro primo for chitarrone is for a 10-course instrument. You can find an answer at p. 42 and 43 of my work. Kapsberger's Libro primo is for a 11-course instrument. Thank you! I have also been told that the Libro primo for lute also calls for an 11-course instrument at a few instances. Is this true? And could it be that the lute in question here actually is a 10/11-corse liuto attiorbato? Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Kapsberger's lute (was: banchieri and the Theorbo in G)
be that the lute in question here actually is a 10/11-corse liuto attiorbato? If that means, 1st and 2nd courses normal (like on the lute), the answer is no. All pieces of Libro prima require 1st and 2nd courses down the octave. (Nevertheless, one might want to discuss one or another toccata.) Ops, I was thinking about the Libro primo for lute, not the Libro primo for chitarrone. The recordings I know of the music from that book is played on a regular french 10-course lute, but I have wondered if Kapsberger might have had a liuto attiorbato in mind, not the least because I have heard that the music actually requires an 11-course instrument in a few places. Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Count Bergen
Yet another question for the Collective Wisdom: I've been trying to find out something about Comte Bergen who has a few pieces listed in Vienna MS 1078. Does anyone know anything about who he was? I wonder if there might be some information about him in Per Ketil Farstad's thesis. One of the first pieces I played when I picked up the classical guitar was a bouree in C-major by count Bergen. This was one of the pieces that pointed me to the lute and it is still favourite of mine. I have never played it or heard it played on the lu, though... Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi
I just don't see a gap of any sort in the Vivaldi D major concerto when played on mandolin. Perhaps you can be more specific as to what the gap might be. Obviously it does not fit perfectly on the archlute or people would not transpose it. Who are transposing it? Both the recordings I know (Lindberg and Pianca) are in D-major. D-major is not a difficult key on the archlute. Are Vidar To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Poulton #73 [was] dedillo
PS. #73 has an identical beginning as 2 of Molinaro's fantasias. Neither remarkable nor much of a coincidence. The first three or four notes are a formula known in Italy as, if I recall correctly, the canzona francese. Pieces based on it were common--Giovanni Gabrieli was particularly fond of it. This is not about just three or four notes, which would indeed be coincidental, but about the first 4 bars in Molinaro's fantasia #1 and # 7 being identical to Poulton's # 73 in form if not in pitch. I didn't find such a similarity in any other lute fantasias, and considering Dowland's sojourn in Italy in the right time-frame... If its a common theme in canzona francese models, I bow to superior knowledge. But as I said, I haven't found this theme in any other lute fantasias (or canzone francese in lute tablature FTM) but in these three pieces, and there are quite a few lute fantasias. Coincidence? I know that some of you also thinks so, but others I've mailed with believe them to at least be based on some common theme. If I remember correctly, this theme is known in England as All in a Garden Green and it is used in a lot of works from this period. I wonder if Howard meant to write the first three or four bars, not notes. Does any of you know why this piece is attributed to Dowland? It is a great piece, but to me it doesn't sound like a Dowland piece... Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Weiss' music published?
I happen to have Telemann's 'Sing, Spiel Generalbass' (great for learning/teaching continuo) in a Baerenreiter 1968 edition. No Weiss is mentioned. What is the title of the piece by Weiss? All the pieces in my edition are songs, and jolly ones at that, so there's no 'Presto in B flat'. Someone else mentioned off-list a presto in Bb (from Dresden) in Telemann's 'Getreue Music Meister'. Anyone knows which is which? From Sonata no. 49. Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New Weiss CD
Rolf Lislevand has just recorded Vivaldi's mandolin concertos on a soprano lute. The reason I have heard for this is that he could not find a baroque mandolin and meant that the musical result would not be that different. Are On Tue, 10 Apr 2007, Edward Martin wrote: There is a difference. The descant lute has a lute tuning, but they are often tuned with the first course in a high d. The mandolino (that is, the Milanese or Lombard mandolino) has the first course a 4th higher, with the first course in g, the 2nd d, the 3rd in a, the 4th in e, the 5th in b, and the 6th in g. ed At 04:06 PM 4/10/2007 +, Mathias R=F6sel wrote: Don't want to open a can of worms, but... -- there is little difference between a mandolino and a descant lute, right? I mean, it still is two lutes, right? Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: cello\lute duo
Hei! According to Pohlmann Christoph Schaffrath composed at sonata for lute and cello. I have no idea wether it is good music or not. mvh Are On Mon, 12 Mar 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, my friend plays the baroque cello, and we want to play some music together. Does anyone know where to start looking for duo music for cello and baroque lute? I don`t play continuo very well (yet), so I am basically looking for written out tabs or music in modern notation. Thanks for helping! Tom To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: G. dai Libri viola da mano
That looks interesting! I am waiting for the details... mvh Are Vidar Hansen On Sat, 10 Feb 2007, Alexander Batov wrote: My long desired project to reproduce viola da mano from Girolamo dai Libri's painting 'Madonna and Child with Saints' is now finished: http://www.vihuelademano.com/viola-da-mano/daiLibri.htm Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Gostena
Actually it was a certain Simone Fasce. I guess it was about women and/or money... Are On Mon, 29 Jan 2007, Andrew Gibbs wrote: Was it the Americans? Andrew On 28 Jan 2007, at 15:27, Are Vidar Boye Hansen wrote: Hi all! Anyone know why Giovanni Battista della Gostena was murdered in 1593? mvh Are Vidar Hansen To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Kniebandl
I want to know everything about all the Grissau manuscripts! Are On Tue, 9 Jan 2007, Arthur Ness wrote: Actually I was mentioning the two manuscripts with Kniebandl's name and the treatises. There are about ten lute manuscripts from Grissau. Most of them were transferred from Wroclaw to Warsaw, and have new call numbers. I'll try to make a summary later. There's a complete listing of conmtents in the Meyer et al. catalogue. - Original Message - From: Are Vidar Boye Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Robert Barto [EMAIL PROTECTED]; BAROQUE-LUTE-LIST baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 10:31 AM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Kniebandl Hi everyone! First I would like to thank Robert Barto for the link to the manuscript! What a treasure! The pieces by Kellner were published in 1747, so either the pieces must have been known earlier than this, or the the manuscript was copied, at least in part, later than 1747. Does anyone know how close the Wroclaw versions of the Kellner pieces are to the printed versions? The last pieces in the mansucript are asceibed to a certain W. Any suggestions to which W that is? S.L. Weiss? J.A. Weiss? J.S. Weiss? Weichenberger? I would love to know more about the Wroclaw manuscrips. Please enlighten me! mvh Are Vidar Hansen On Tue, 9 Jan 2007, Arthur Ness wrote: Re: the dates of the two Kniebandl Manuscripts, Mf 2001 and Mf 2002. Both cite him as P=E8re [Father] Hermien Kniebandl, Prof=E8s [monk] at the monastery at Grussau. He became prior in 1737, according to Wilhelm Tappert, who examined the manuscripts before they were transferred to Wroclaw, and then in part to Warsaw. So the manuscripts must have been started before 1737, if we are to judge from his ecclesiastical title. The Weiss piece on folio 91 of Mf 2002 has the date 1739. There are three or four copies of the Falkenhagen portrait on the Internet. One is on the site for the City of Bayreuth. Maybe they would give you permission to use it. It would be good publicity for their tourist bureau. Use the Google Images option, and both spellings: Falkenhagen and Falckenhagen. St=F6r also engraved the portrait of Baron, and Falkenhagen's tablatures for the Nuremberg lutenist and music publisher Johann Ulrich Haffner. Haffner's name came up here a few months ago because he was a friend of Leopold Mozart, who was his agent in Augsburg. Joachim Domning has another engraved portrait on his web page depicting Haffner playing lute. Probably by St=F6r, too. Surely Joachim must know where the portrait came from. --ajn == - Original Message - From: Robert Barto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: BAROQUE-LUTE-LIST baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 3:05 PM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] 18th-century right hand fingering (long) Wayne tells me this should come through now. I've done a little article on 18th-century right hand fingering that will be appearing in one of the next LSA quarterlies, so I don't want to say too much here. But it is evident from Wroclaw 2002 (Kniebandl) and several other sources, that the ring finger was used commonly in four voice chords and arpeggios. (It's difficult to date this MS, but even assuming 1730-1760 it is still of interest.) The MS can be found here: http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01tc/Wroclaw2002/ And more about it, here: http://www.tabulatura.de/Knieban/KNintro.htm In the London and Dresden Weiss manuscripts, there are a total of (I think) three or four notated ring finger signs. (Dresden p.248 Bb Sarabande, son. 25, London p.56v Prelude dm son.13, London p.89r, Hartig Tombeau, have ring finger notated. Where else? )But one can assume that Weiss used the ring finger in arpeggios similarly to the examples in Wroclaw and elsewhere. In these situations it would have been so common that he wouldn't have to mention it. (Four voice chords and longer arpeggios.) This is not to say that he did not use certain two finger customs or tricks that came from the earlier tradition. Many of his fingerings, for example in the Eb prelude on page 145v in London, indicate this. ( He may have written them out because they were not obvious, or for a special effect.) In the larger arpeggios, especially in the preludes and fantasias, one of course can decide whether to jump up from the bass with the thumb, as Weiss often specifies, or to use the ring finger in the middle and top somewhere. In the larger arpeggios in the allegros and prestos, one can assume that the ring finger was used, again as shown in Wroclaw 2002 and elsewhere, which reflect what was probably the common practice of the time. Although we have no evidence that the ring finger was used in melodic lines, I think that the modern player has
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
Hi Chris and everyone! I was just thinking on this. Is there any music that is clearly written specifically for this type of 12 (not 11 or 13) course lute? Have a look at this: http://www.tabulatura.com/Mestweb.htm kind regards Are Vidar Hansen To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New Lutenist Question
Isn't that a tall order? Maybe if all one concentrates on is a G lute and guitar (capoed up), then one could learn all the positions in, say, many years. But do people really learn the fingerboards of, say, ren lute in G, baroque lute in dm, archlute (in ??), etc??? I know the fingerboards of my renaissance lute in G, baroque lute in d-minor, archlute in G and fender stratocaster in E. I honestly don't understand why many lutensits find this so difficult. mvh Are Vidar Hansen To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New Lutenist Question
Well, if that's the case, why use tablature? Really. Is there any other reason? I think Stewart McCoy claimed that tabulature is an excellent way of notating polyphonic music for a plucked instrument. Anyway, lutenists did play from score, just think of continuo playing. I am certain that you will find that its not difficult to play from score if you practice a little. mvh Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New Lutenist Question
I hope Stewart will explain it himself! Are I'm a novice, which explains why I don't understand Mr. McCoy's assertion. Can you explain it? On 11/14/06, Are Vidar Boye Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, if that's the case, why use tablature? Really. Is there any other reason? I think Stewart McCoy claimed that tabulature is an excellent way of notating polyphonic music for a plucked instrument. Anyway, lutenists did play from score, just think of continuo playing. I am certain that you will find that its not difficult to play from score if you practice a little. mvh Are -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Sacred lute continuo (was: Re: Buxtehude Lutes)
Hi all! An archlute would be very appropriate, and fine. From all accounts,, anything could have been used, including archlutes, theorbi, baroque guitars, battente, guitars, gambi, etc. Really? Last sunday I played archlute continuo for Schutz' Musikalische Exequien with a baroque guitarist. It worked fine, but I have never seeen any evidence that all kinds of different continuo instruments were used in baroque church music. If would love to know what your sources are! mvh Are Vidar Hansen To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: list of great performers
I have to add the great norwegians Thomas Bpysen and Thor-Harald Johnsen! Are On Thu, 19 Oct 2006, Andreas Schlegel wrote: Dear all I'm writing a book on the European lute for non specialists. It's one with many colour photos of historic instruments, in two languages (german - english). Now I'm looking for a list with famous lutenists of our days, because I hope that a reader like also to hear the lute instruments. So the goal of this list is to offer the internet search possibility for easily available recordings - also in 10 years. The recordings should be available in nearly all countries. Please add your favorit who is not mentioned in my first list. Thank you! Anthony Bailes Robert Barto Paul Beier Timothy Burris Michel Cardin Bj=F6rn Colell Michael Ducker Eduardo Eguez Pierre Gross Jan Gruter Oswald Hebermehl Joachim Held Yasunori Imamura Konrad Jungh=E4nel Lutz Kirchhof Jakob Lindberg Rolf Lislevand Viggo Mangor Evangelina Mascardi Ron McFarlane Jose Miguel Moreno Nigel North Paul O'Dette Toyohiko Satoh Miguel Sedura John Schneiderman Karl-Ernst Schr=F6der Hopkinson Smith Terrell Stone Stephen Stubbs Crawford Young Yerzi Zak Christian Zimmermann Andreas To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: list of great performers
Ops, that is of course Thomas Boysen! http://www.thomasboysen.de/ Are On Thu, 19 Oct 2006, Are Vidar Boye Hansen wrote: I have to add the great norwegians Thomas Bpysen and Thor-Harald Johnsen! Are On Thu, 19 Oct 2006, Andreas Schlegel wrote: Dear all I'm writing a book on the European lute for non specialists. It's one with many colour photos of historic instruments, in two languages (german - english). Now I'm looking for a list with famous lutenists of our days, because I hope that a reader like also to hear the lute instruments. So the goal of this list is to offer the internet search possibility for easily available recordings - also in 10 years. The recordings should be available in nearly all countries. Please add your favorit who is not mentioned in my first list. Thank you! Anthony Bailes Robert Barto Paul Beier Timothy Burris Michel Cardin Bj=F6rn Colell Michael Ducker Eduardo Eguez Pierre Gross Jan Gruter Oswald Hebermehl Joachim Held Yasunori Imamura Konrad Jungh=E4nel Lutz Kirchhof Jakob Lindberg Rolf Lislevand Viggo Mangor Evangelina Mascardi Ron McFarlane Jose Miguel Moreno Nigel North Paul O'Dette Toyohiko Satoh Miguel Sedura John Schneiderman Karl-Ernst Schr=F6der Hopkinson Smith Terrell Stone Stephen Stubbs Crawford Young Yerzi Zak Christian Zimmermann Andreas To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: more than 6 courses
Hi all! I thought: 7-course one tone below the 6th c.: Newsidler Teutsch Lautenbuch 1574 (but I don't have a copy...) 7-course a fourth below the 6th c.: Barbetta 1582 8-course: Terzi and Molinario 1599 Matthias Reymann published his Noctes musicae for 8-course lute in 1598. I want to know more about this music! 9-course: Francisque 1600 10-course: Kapsberger 1611 I have read somewhere that the pieces in Kapsperger's 1611 book actually are for an 11-course instrument, probably a liuto attiorbato. Can any of you verify this? mvh Are Vidar Hansen To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Why re-entrant tuning?
Hi Alfonso! I think Martin was a bit crude to you... The point is that it is not the force applied to the string that determines wether or not it will brake, but the force per cross-sectional area of the string. A thicker string needs a larger force for it to break, but it also has a larger cross-sectional area. Hope this helps. mvh Are Vidar Hansen, astrophysicist and lutenist Dear Martyn, Yes, you are right, when I was in highschool, physics was always my weak subject=A1 I think it was a wise decision to become a musician and not a scientific. Sorry if I misunderstood your point. Best wishes, Alfonso On 13-okt-2006, at 18:14, Martyn Hodgson wrote: You misunderstand my point. It is, of course, the relatively low breaking stress of gut (compared to modern nylon, say) which requires lowering the top one or two courses on a theorbo. You also seem to be unable to comprehend the elementary laws of physics. Might I suggest you read the archives. MH Alfonso Marin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Matyn, If you can find gut (or even nylgut) strings that will allow a theorbo of 90cm in A to be tuned without re-entrant tuning, please, let me know. I will be willing to try them! Diameter also have to do with tone quality. Such an extremely thin string on that string lenth would sound very flimsy. If you use a thicker diamenter, the tension would be unbearable for the instrument. If you think that the reason for the re-entrant tuning of the theorbo is not conditioned by physical reasons but musical, I can tell you that you are on the wrong direction of thinking. Alfonso On 13-okt-2006, at 16:52, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Setting the top one or two courses of the theorbo an octave down has nothing whatsoever to do with the diameter of the string (as pointed out many times before - see archives). It has to do with the string length, the string material and the pitch. This leads to the breaking stress related to the pitch at which a string of a given material and length will break. Thus for two strings of the same material and length, the pitch at which they will break is identical. For example, a string of say 10mm in diameter will, of course, require a much greater force to break than one of, say, 0.01mm but it has a much greater cross- sectional area and the Breaking Stress (ie Breaking Force/Cross- sectional area) is identical for the two strings. MH Alfonso Marin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Craig, The re-entrant tuning on the theorbo has its origins on the physical nature of gut strings. The long string lengths of this instrument makes impossible to get gut thin enough to have the 2nd and 1st strings at normal pitch. This apparent drawback, used with intelligence on continuo playing can actually be of help. The problem is that the re-entrant tuning makes the instrument somehow less logical and [EMAIL PROTECTED] have to study its possibilities carefully to make good use of it. I hope this helps, Greetings, Alfonso The re-entrant tuning on the On 13-okt-2006, at 13:19, Craig Allen wrote: Dear Collective Wisdom, The subject says it all. Re-entrant tuning is used on the theorbo and if I recall the gittern. But why? I have not played an instrument tuned this way so don't have any practical experience with the sound or feel. Why are these (and presumabley other) instruments tuned this way? Regards, Craig ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Send instant messages to your online friends http:// uk.messenger.yahoo.com Yahoo! Photos NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 7p a photo. --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Minor sharp keys?
Hi again, everyone! MS Barbe has 19 pieces in F#m, 10 pieces in E minor, and 6 pieces in Bm. Four sharps in d minor tuning would be challenging. When I saw H. Smith play BWV 1006a in California some years ago, he stated that he had transposed it to F major. I am not aware of any 17th century French sources with pieces in E major. Kohaut and Falckenhagen composed lute concertos in E-major, if I remember correctly. Falckenhagen also composed a solo sonata in E-major. Jakob Lindberg and Lutz Kirchhof have recorded BWV 1006a in E-major, but most lutenists of course transpose it to F-major. Danny, Good question. The French baroque lutenists do use F# minor a lot Gaultiers, Gallot, deVissee, DuBut, Emond, Pinel, de St.Luc, and Mouton use it a great deal. Also, for the Germans, leSage de Richee (is he German?) and Bittner use this tuning as well. Weiss did compose some earlier F# minor pieces, I think in Vienna. It was known as the goat's tuning, and it was well utilized. There are many recordings of this key, namely French baroque lute recordings by Hoppy (his V D Gaultier, Mouton, Gallot recordings). The extant piece by Pachelbel is in F# minor as well (recorded by Bailes). Toyohiko's French recordings are loaded with F# minor pieces. B minor is a different subject. Bittner opens his book with a suite in B minor, but I know of no others, with exception to the 1st violin Partita by JS Bach. Although it is not lute music, many have done it on lute. Most have transcribed it to a minor, however. So you are correct about B minor, but F# minor is very common, and a favorite tuning of many. Take care, Danny. ed PS - does anyone know of other pieces in B minor? http://www.clivetitmuss.com/lutebook_details.asp?Id=8#1 mvh Are Vidar Boye Hansen To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Wagner and the lute
Hello all! On her list of instruments Lynda Sayce mentions a Wagner lute: http://www.theorbo.com/Instruments/Instruments.htm I don't know what it is, but if you ask her, please let us know! mvh Are Vidar Boye Hansen I've been asked to play a lute part in Wagner's Meistersingers...is there such a thing? What did he have in mind, and what instrument should play the part? Rob MacKillop To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Harrach
Dear all The three anonymous concertos are from the Harrach Collection. But from a section of the Harrach collection that was sold (or auctioned?) many years ago, perhaps in the 1960s. From that sale we can trace the Pachelbel pieces at the Stadtbibliothek in Nuremberg, the sonatas, etc., by Baron et al. in the New York Public Library. And these three anonymous concertos which Bob Spencer acquired, and are now in the Royal Conservatory(or Academy?) of Music in London. Can you tell us a little more about these concertos? I will very soon be the proud owner of an archlute by David van Edwards, so I am dying to know more about the archlute repertory! I understand that there are solo pieces and a new concerto among the newly discovered Harrach manuscripts. So for Harrach we have (1) Items sold in the 60s (some are probably in private libraries) So these are now in London, New York, Nuremberg and probably other places? (2) Items in the Archiv fuer Niederosterreich (I thinks that's where they are) (3) Items that remained in the Harrach library in Eisenstadt, the newly discovered tablatures. Is there any complete inventory list for the Harrach manuscripts? Or any plans for fascsimile editions? I am curious about this music! mvh Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Weiss continuo
Hi Arthur and the rest of you! Does any of you know whether or not these continuo notes will be included in the collected works of Weiss. It would be extremly interesting to study them! Are the lute concertos you are talking about the archlute concertos which might be the works of Giovanni Zamboni? mvh Are Vidar Boye Hansen On Sun, 14 May 2006, Arthur Ness wrote: Dear Andrew, As I indicated, I have held and turned the pages of the actual orchestral parts from which Weiss played in the opera orchestra in Dresden. They're in pitch notation, and include solo/obbligato passages for lute. There are even rehearsal notations in Weiss' own handwriting, so we know it was Weiss who played them. You really get a wierd feeling when you hold such a treasure in your hands. It's as if the ghost of Weiss is looking over your shoulder. Many of the parts are for operas by Adolf Hasse, whose wife Faustina Bordoni was a famous soprano. And then the toddler and futrure lutenist was probably around, Johann Adolf Faustinus Weiss. (Weiss must have had tremendous respect for the pair.) JAFW is thought to have been the lutenist who arranged an aria from Naumann's opera Cora och Alonzo (1782) for lute and glassharmonica, a wonderful combination of sounds. And Michael, Weiss played from the BASS CLEF when the lute played continuo. I recently acquired Xeroxes of three Italian 18th-century lute concertos, with the lute parts in pitch notation in treble and bass clefs. These are the concertos from the Harrach collection now in Vienna. There are other sources, too. And part of the problem is the faulty bibliographical control. Tablature sources are being studied and catalogued in some detail, but lute music in pitch notation still remains for the most part terra incognita. But the tip of the ice berg is visible for those who care to look. Richard Dyer-Bennet was your mentor? Heavens! What a priviledge that must have been! (More on your ensemble tomorrow.) Andrew Schulman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Arthur Ness wrote: AJNWeiss and most professional lutenists read pitch notation as well as tablatures Arthur I remember in my college days hearing that Weiss was known for being able to sight read concerto scores, I think it was Jerry Willard my teacher that told me that. What do you know about this? Andrew -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: SWAN NECK vs. BASS RIDER
Hei Juan! Michel Cardin mentions several pieces in the London manuscript where courses 9, 10 and 11(!) are fretted. Tim Crawford has pointed that the sonata in f-minor S-C 21 might have been modified to suit the swan neck lute, since the London version contains deep E naturals in the allemande and sarabande which have been transposed up one octave in the Dresden version. mvh Are Vidar Boye Hansen, from Norway Dear lute friends: Excuse me in case I'm boring you with too much newcomer questions, probably over-answered in the past. Well, let's go to the matter. It's said all around that the ideal lute to play S.L. Weiss is the know as swan neck or theorboed model and, really, the most of the recordings published till now are related to lutenists performing on a swan neck baroque lute. I'm now studying the Prelude from the Suite in d minor (Dresden Manuscript, Volume 1, Suite n. 7, in the Jean-Daniel Forget public domain edition), one of the best Weiss preludes, for my taste, -extraordinarily well performed by Robert Barto (Sonatas vol. 3 track 14)- and I'm realising that Mr. Barto raises one octave up some basses that demand to be played e.g. on the first fret of the 10th course (Eb). I'm sure the reason is he's playing on a swan neck preventing him to play these notes as originally were written. My personal question now is whether this point is showing that Weiss composed this piece -and many others, probably- with a simple bass rider baroque lute in mind, and not a theorboed one. What do you think about? Always giving thanks for your tolerance and kindness. -- Juan Fco. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Gabriel Voigtländer book and other stuff in the web!
Hei! While browsing here and there in the Danish museum, I found something quite interesting that was not mentioned in the Italian list: Gabriel Voigtl=E4nder: Erster Theil allerhand Oden und Lieder welche auff allerlen / als Italianishe / Frans=F6sische / Englische / und anderer Deutschen guten Componisten / Melodien und Arien gerichtet / ... / Clavi Cimbalen / Lauten / Tiorben / Pandorn / Violen di Gamba ... (Sohra : H. Kruse, 1642) Dedicated to Herrn CRISTIANO den Vierdten(?) / zu Dennemarck und Norwegen / der Gothen und Wenden K=F6nig ... (and at the end of the ms. by the way there is German (keyboard?) tabulature by Melchior Schildt, Pavana Lagrima included!) http://www.kb.dk/elib/noder/vgtl/vgtl-kplt.pdf It contains solo songs with (sparsely) numbered bass, more than 100 pages, 100 songs!! Does anyone know more of Voigtl=E4nder and his book of 1642? Any analysisis of the contents? And perhaps the German list members may take a look and tell more about the book? My German is not very good, and also reading the font used in the book is not fluent to me... Here is the Voigtl=E4nder-article in the New Grove: http://www.grovemusic.com/shared/views/article.html?from=searchsession_search_id=1036738657hitnum=1section=music.29624 All the best, Arto mvh Are Vidar Boye Hansen -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Gabriel Voigtländer book and other stuff in the web!
I forgot to mention that some og Voigtl=E4nder's songs are recorded on the Naxos CD German Lute Songs with Charlie Schr=F6der playing the lute. mvh Are -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Mozart?
Ops, I was thinking about who performed in the Mozart version. Could that have been Straube? Of course, it would be interesting to know who performed in the original version as well! And what kind of lutes where used? Archlute for H=E4ndel and baroque lute for Mozart? It would be extremly interesting to compare the two versions! mvh Are You mean Straube. Daube was in Vienna. Did he know Mozart? He is said to have died with his old lute at his side (1797?). There was another lutenist named Senal who was active at that time in London. Also Weiss. Guitars, Pantaleone, Mandolin, and Colascione (the two-string kind) were also heard on the London stage. By the way, the (lost???) Mozart/Abingdon anon. lutenist/Haydn portrait was done by John Francis Rigaud. He is also know for a famous portrait of John Christian Bach (aka The Milan Bach.) ajn. - Original Message - From: Are Vidar Boye Hansen To: LGS-Europe Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 5:14 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mozart? Hi all! Is it true that Mozart added a short cadenza for solo lute in his version of the Caecilia ode? I don't know what is H=E4ndel and what is Mozart in the lute part (aria no 5: Der Fl=F6te Klageton, b-minor), but there is some sort of cadenza for lute and flute at the end. Most of the lute part is straight forward continuo playing, with passages of broken chords (oncomftably low for an archlute) during the words 'die sanfte Laute'. At least the text is translated, as H=E4ndel's version of the aria is called The Soft Complainig Flute. I wonder who played the lute in the performance of this work. Maybe Kohaut or Daube? mvh Are Vidar Hansen -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Telemann lute music?
That is interesting! I have also heard that Telemann wrote a number of cantatas with a bass part for gallichon and that he mentioned solo music for lute in a letter to his publisher. mvh Are Vidar Hansen On Sun, 18 Dec 2005, Arthur Ness wrote: In addition to the two partitas in Warsaw (cited by Fabio), there seems to be more Telemann in the Rostock tablatures. Mus. Saec. XVIII-13/26.1 has a partita (Allegro, Menuet, Aria adagio, Gigue) attr. to Sig. Tallman (also spelled Dallmon) with a Contrapartie for a second lute in XVIII-13/26.2. XVIII-13/26.2 also has another Contrapartie but no part for the first lute . Also in the fascicle is a partita by Erdmann. My understanding of the term contrapartie is that it is a second part added later. That would indicate that the first lute part started as a solo piece. IIRC. Let us know when your CD comes out, Thomas. ajn - Original Message - From: Thomas Schall To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; 'r.turovsky' Cc: 'lute' Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 1:19 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Telemann lute music? If someone wants to listen to them - we have recorded a concert of them a while ago (then it was on the net for a while) and plan to perform them on a CD. Best wishes Thomas -Ursprungliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 14. Dezember 2005 16:23 An: r.turovsky Cc: lute Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Telemann lute music? Thanks to Roman and Fabio PD TWV only has the 2 duos for BLs (arranged by someone else, obviously), and 6 concerti with gallichon, e basta. RT Scherzando, appunto! Any other hint? Paolo Declich http://polyhymnion.org/swv/images/scherz.pdf rt - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 7:16 AM Subject: [LUTE] Telemann lute music? Dear collective wisdom, anyone knows about lute compositions (not concerts for lute and orchestra) by Telemann? Or, in other words, is it possible that the most prolific musician of the history of music, from the same generation of Weiss and JS Bach never wrote a single piece for lute SOLO ? Best wishes Paolo Declich To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
