[LUTE] The Dark Lord;'s Music

[Martin Eastwell]

Hi!

LORD HERBERT of CHERBURY LUTEBOOK-new CD

I'm delighted to announce the release on the MMC label of "The Dark Lord's 
Music", containing twenty of the finest works from Lord Herbert's Lutebook. It 
is available to purchase online from most major sources-Amazon, Presto, HMV 
etc, or direct from the record company website-
http://www.musicandmediaconsulting.com/mmc-recordings/the-dark-lords-music-the-lutebook-of-edward-lord-herbert-of-cherbury/
 

It is also available to download from most major download sources.

I’ve placed three tracks from the recording on my website-do have a 
listen….preferably not on laptop speakers!

www.martineastwell.com/recordings 

Enjoy!

Best wishes

Martin
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[LUTE] Re: New post

[Martin Eastwell]

The main CDBaby website seems to have disappeared, though the music download
page seems to work.


Martin  




On 28/06/2012 00:45, Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp wrote:

 I think I see. So the buyer goes to CDBaby, types in the code and they can get
 their goodies. Clever.
 
 On Jun 27, 2012, at 6:43 PM, Daniel Shoskes wrote:
 
 http://members.cdbaby.com/music-download-cards.aspx
 
 On Jun 27, 2012, at 1:52 AM, Ed Durbrow wrote:
 
 
 On Jun 26, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Ron Andrico wrote:
 
 we've begun to
  offer download cards for souvenir-seeking audience members
 
 What does a download card look like and how does it work?
 
 Naively,
 Ed Durbrow
 Saitama, Japan
 http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
 http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
 edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp
 
 
 --
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 Ed Durbrow
 Saitama, Japan
 http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
 http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
 edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp
 
 
 
 
 --

Martin Eastwell Lute, Theorbo  Guitar
Website: www.martineastwell.com

[LUTE] Re: Right hand plucking position - was Re: Quality vs Quantity

[Martin Eastwell]

On 27/03/2012 12:12, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Martyn,
A related and by no means insignificant concern for performers is
what modern audiences expect to hear. What if the close-to-the-bridge
position implies that listeners back in the day expected a very
brittle, nasally, banjo-y sound? That may be nice to know, but I'll bet
few audiences today would enjoy everything performed sempre sul
ponticello.
You may very well be the most authentic kid on the block, but if
everyone alive thinks you make an ugly sound, you've just thrown your
work onto the pile of irrelevance. You can stand on principle and hope
that people will eventually come around to your HIPness, but it takes
an iron will to tough it out through the years when audiences don't
come, promoters don't hire and critics (if they notice you at all)
bash. There is also the financial disincentive provided for the
satisfaction of being a marginalized figure. I for one don't
particularly enjoy playing for posterity or corpses.
I should mention that I'm an advocate of playing close to the
bridge and I wrestle with these issues myself.
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
--- On Tue, 3/27/12, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
 
   But putting such thoughts to one side,  the real issue is how else
are
   we to attempt to recapture as best as we can what the early
composers
   had in mind and what their auditors expected to hear; other than by
   looking at the historical evidence rather than to our own
prejudices.
 
--
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Right hand plucking position - was Re: Quality vs Quantity

[Martin Eastwell]

Dear Chris/All


Certainly it is possible for close-to-the-bridge hand positions to give
brittle, nasally, banjo-y sound, but it does not have to be that way. I
recently gave a talk for the UK Lute Society on just this subject, and it
should be written up in the next issue of Lute News, so I won't go over my
arguments in detail here. Briefly, though, I was arguing that authentic
hand positions make little sense unless they are accompanied by similarly
authentic stringing and instrument construction, and unless they are
applied to the right sort of repertoire.
I thought I'd mention that I've recently redone my website (nearly finished
anyhow!), and that there are audio samples there which are quite relevant to
this discussion, as they are played with a variety of techniques. Have a
listen!  

http://www.martineastwell.com/music-samples/

Some details:
1. Dowland Fantasie, recorded 1990 on a 9 course lute. Gut strings (unisons
on courses 1-5), with Catline basses and thumb-out technique. RH not
especially close to the bridge.
2. Mesangau Almand, rec. 2011, 12 course lute, all gut, RH close to bridge,
thumb out.
3. The Day Dawes, rec. 2011,  course lute, gut with loaded basses, RH close
to bridge, thumb out.
4, 5, and 6. Francesco 34/Calata/ Si Vous Voulez rec. 1990, 6 course lute,
gut strings with octave basses, thumb under plucking away from the bridge.


I plan to change the recordings in a month or so-perhaps I should put up my
recording of a J.Gaultier Almand played with Thomas Mace technique-little
finger behind the bridge!

Best wishes

Martin



On 27/03/2012 12:12, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Martyn,
A related and by no means insignificant concern for performers is
what modern audiences expect to hear. What if the close-to-the-bridge
position implies that listeners back in the day expected a very
brittle, nasally, banjo-y sound? That may be nice to know, but I'll bet
few audiences today would enjoy everything performed sempre sul
ponticello.
You may very well be the most authentic kid on the block, but if
everyone alive thinks you make an ugly sound, you've just thrown your
work onto the pile of irrelevance. You can stand on principle and hope
that people will eventually come around to your HIPness, but it takes
an iron will to tough it out through the years when audiences don't
come, promoters don't hire and critics (if they notice you at all)
bash. There is also the financial disincentive provided for the
satisfaction of being a marginalized figure. I for one don't
particularly enjoy playing for posterity or corpses.
I should mention that I'm an advocate of playing close to the
bridge and I wrestle with these issues myself.
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
--- On Tue, 3/27/12, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
 
   But putting such thoughts to one side,  the real issue is how else
are
   we to attempt to recapture as best as we can what the early
composers
   had in mind and what their auditors expected to hear; other than by
   looking at the historical evidence rather than to our own
prejudices.
 
--
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




On 27/03/2012 12:12, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Martyn,
A related and by no means insignificant concern for performers is
what modern audiences expect to hear. What if the close-to-the-bridge
position implies that listeners back in the day expected a very
brittle, nasally, banjo-y sound? That may be nice to know, but I'll bet
few audiences today would enjoy everything performed sempre sul
ponticello.
You may very well be the most authentic kid on the block, but if
everyone alive thinks you make an ugly sound, you've just thrown your
work onto the pile of irrelevance. You can stand on principle and hope
that people will eventually come around to your HIPness, but it takes
an iron will to tough it out through the years when audiences don't
come, promoters don't hire and critics (if they notice you at all)
bash. There is also the financial disincentive provided for the
satisfaction of being a marginalized figure. I for one don't
particularly enjoy playing for posterity or corpses.
I should mention that I'm an advocate of playing close to the
bridge and I wrestle with these issues myself.
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
--- On Tue, 3/27/12, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
 
   But putting such thoughts to one side,  the real issue is how else
are
   we to attempt to recapture as best as we can what the early
composers
   had in mind and what their auditors expected to 

[LUTE] Help with Verdelot

[Martin Eastwell]

Hi!
Years ago, my copy of the London Pro Musica edition of Verdelot madrigals,
set for lute and voice by Willaert, disappeared. I don't think the promised
reprinted is yet available and the SPES facsimile is also out of print, but
I need a copy of Quanto sia liet' il giorno for a concert as soon as
possible. Is there an online copy, or can any kind person help with a scan
or a Fronimo file?


Many thanks

Martin




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[LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing

[Martin Eastwell]

On 25/11/2011 23:14, Martin Eastwell eastwe...@mac.com wrote:

 Hi Anthony
 
 Having looked up Martin Shepherd's 2007 post from your link
 http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg19978.html
 I'm quite convinced by the Holborne and Cutting examples he gives-
 
 Cutting, Galliard, Euing f.29 (Burgers no.22)bar 13:
 
 -!-
 -a---a-c-d---b---!-
 ---d---a-!-b-a-b---
 -!-
 -c-c-a---!---a-c---
 -!-d-d-
 
 (the two notes on the 5th course in the second bar could be an octave
 higher)
 
 Holborne, Patiencia, Euing f.39v. (aus dem Spring no.23) bar 52:
 
 --c-c---!---
 --c-c---f---!-a-
 --f-e-c-e-f-c-e-!-a-
 e---!-b-
 !-c-
 --c-!---
 (the f on the 2nd course resolves onto the upper octave b of the 4th
 course)
 
 Dowland, Queen Elizabeth's Galliard, VLL Galliard 2(Poulton no.41) bar 6:
 
 -f--c-d---!-a-c---a-!---
 -c--a-a---!-a-c-!-e-
 --!---f-e---!-a-
 -e--a-c-a-!-!---
 c-!-e-c-!-c-
 -ca---!-d---c---!---
 
 (the descending scale c4, a4, e5, c5 needs to be an octave higher to
 connect with the f3 in the 4/3 suspension at the cadence.  Octaves on
 courses 4 and 5 solve the problem.  Octave on course 5 also allows the
 e to resolve at the correct octavein the final chord)
 
 (Yes I know VLL is the very source where Dowland recommends unisons, but
 this piece was written before 1591 as it appears in Dd.2.11 as K
 Darcyes Galliard (f.59) - K.Darcy became Lady Clifton in 1591).
 
 Sorry about the lack of rhythm signs
 
 -less so by the Dowland-I see what he means, but it doesn't sound bad to me.
 In connection with Cutting and Dowland (or has someone already pointed this
 out?), it is worth mentioning that William Barley's A new book of Tabliture
 (1596) reprints Le Roy's Instructions, complete with directions for octave
 stringing on courses 4 to 6, and the lute music in the book is all by either
 Dowland or Cutting, and for 6 course lute (though the orpharion and bandora
 sections of the book use 7 courses.
 
 My feeling about octave vs. unison stringing is that it is to some extent
 connected with the change to thumb outside technique. Assuming all gut
 stringing and thumb under technique, my experience of many years is that lutes
 with unison stringing sound rather murky. The basses have lost the brightness
 provided by octave strings, and the warm treble sound inherent in thumb under
 technique seems to merge with them in a rather unsatisfactory manner. Played
 thumb out, where the fingers are significantly closer to the bridge (relative
 to the thumb), the brighter treble seems to be lifted out of the texture by
 virtue of a different tone colour. The comments in the Stobeus Ms instructions
 seem to be thinking along the same lines: For it has been shown to be much
 better to strike with the thumb outwards. This sounds clearer, crisper and
 brighter. The other sounds very dull and muffled.
 This reminds me very much of the sort of things mix engineers in the rock/pop
 world do. They are very concerned that each instrument in a band should occupy
 its own space in the frequency spectrum, and not get in each other's way.
 Often they will electronically equalise sounds to make this work-for example
 filtering the low frequencies off a strummed acoustic guitar so that it does
 not conflict with the bass. On its own, the guitar sounds poor, but it sits
 better in the mix.
  I'll be talking about this and related things at a meeting of the UK Lute
 society in Feb.
 
 Best wishes
 
 Martin (Eastwell, not Shepherd!)
 
 On 25/11/2011 15:54, Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
Bruno, I think it may depend on the stringing you use. Some 5th course
basses really do need octave stringing, but 5c unissons with Venice
Meanes do seem acceptable.
In fact, I adopted this pattern, with unissons from 5c up, because I
assumed it to be a possible historical late renaissance tuning, for a 7
course lute with the 7th tuned to D ; but didn't quite like the result
with a pair of 5c unisson Lyons. The Lyons would no doubt have been
better with an octave, but what bothered me was a sort of break in the
Meanes area, between the 5c Lyons and the 4c HTs. I wanted a more
homogenous sound for 5c and 4c.
This was the reason for which I adopted Venices, as I could have
Venices unissons both on 5 and 4c (there are no Lyons available for
4c). I felt the result was both more Meanes homogenous, and the Venices
had sufficient harmonicity, not to absolutely cry out for octaves, as
the Lyons did (nothing wrong with the lyons per se)
%
Like yourself, I was striving to achieve the best sound with a
particular lute type and stringing; however, as Martin Shepherd has
explained, the music might actually indicate quite a different string

[LUTE] Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing

[Martin Eastwell]

Hi!

I've been checking up the information on Dentice and octave stringing to be
found in Adrian Le Roy A briefe and plaine Instruction... London 1574,
using the CNRS edition, as I don't have a full facsimile.
The info is on p36 of Vol 1, which states that it refers to f.41v of the
original. He says:

in the .23 distaunce of this song Du corps absent, we have to shewe the
reader, that in place of an .F. In the laste minim of that measure, in the
second example of the same song, garnished with runnyng poincte,ye shall
finde the same .F. Chaunged into  .D. With a double passage, kepying the
fall, whiche was corrupted in .F. Neverthelesse the Tune self of the same
.F. Is found in the same compainie, and eight of the greate fift stryng:
which reason could not be in Lutes, tuned after the manner of Fabrice
Dentice the Italian, and other his followers. Where those strynges that
satnde twoo and twoo together, bee sette in one Tune and not by eightes,
which thei do for a perfection of harmonie, in avoiding many unissons, which
those eight would cause.

My questions are-
1. Is there a clear explanation of this anywhere that I can look up? If
not...

2. I understand Le Roy is saying that Dentice used a unison 5th course, not
just a unison 4th. Is this right?

3. Is anyone who has access to the CNRS edition able to tell me which bar in
volume 2 of that edition Le Roy is referring to with the bit about the .23
distaunce.

No doubt it would all become clear if I had a facsimile


With many thanks 

Martin




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[LUTE] Re: Gut Strings

[Martin Eastwell]

On 15/11/2011 20:43, Orphenica wer...@orphenica.de wrote:

 Dear collective lute wisdom,
 
 is it true that the production of gut in Europe will be prohibited by
 European law?
 
 As stated on Aquila's web page the production of gut strings and import
 of raw materials will be prohibited:
 http://www.aquilacorde.com/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=190It
 emid=1471lang=en
 
 I tried to contact the Italian ministry of Health, with no answer by now.
 
 I cannot believe that we pay bureaucratic douchebags that have nothing
 else to do than to make such decisions.
 
 What will be next? Warning lights on theorbos longer than 1,40m;
 mandatory rubber gloves for gut players?
 
 we
 
 
 
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[LUTE] Re: Gut Strings

[Martin Eastwell]

My apologies for my last (empty) message-I pressed the wrong button!

It is certainly very bad news that Aquila has stopped gut string production.
Mimmo certainly deserves our heartfelt thanks for his heroic researches, and
I for one feel that the lute world in general could have been more
supportive. In fact, he stopped production of the loaded gut (C Type)
strings several months ago. I corresponded with him at the time-he mentioned
the gut supply problem as well as sheer lack of time, but also seemed
disillusioned by the lack of support he had received.

The loaded gut strings are the real problem. It seems unlikely that anyone
else will follow in his footsteps-the technology behind the loaded gut
strings is, according to the Aquila USA website,  protected by U.S. and
international patents.   http://www.aquilausa.com/c_strings.html

It is a major problem for anyone who wants to play on real lute strings
(as opposed to just making a nice noise!). It is a particular problem for
me, as I'm booked to give a talk entitled 21st Century lute technique-a
compromise too far? for the UK Lute Society in February, in which loaded
strings play a major part. I have enough strings (for now) but no one else
can buy them.

Best wishes

martin


On 15/11/2011 20:43, Orphenica wer...@orphenica.de wrote:

 Dear collective lute wisdom,
 
 is it true that the production of gut in Europe will be prohibited by
 European law?
 
 As stated on Aquila's web page the production of gut strings and import
 of raw materials will be prohibited:
 http://www.aquilacorde.com/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=190It
 emid=1471lang=en
 
 I tried to contact the Italian ministry of Health, with no answer by now.
 
 I cannot believe that we pay bureaucratic douchebags that have nothing
 else to do than to make such decisions.
 
 What will be next? Warning lights on theorbos longer than 1,40m;
 mandatory rubber gloves for gut players?
 
 we
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Reusner instructions

[Martin Eastwell]

Hi!
Can anyone point me to a translation of the instructions to Reusner's
Erfeuliche Lauten-Lust? I have the facsimile, but my tame language expert
is out of action!

Many thanks

Martin




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[LUTE] Re: lute songs for bass voice?

[Martin Eastwell]

Dear Franz

One really good song for bass voice can be found in the Stainer and Bell
Songs from Manuscript Sources volume 1. It is Most men do love the
Spanish wine. I recorded it some years ago, and both the singer and I
really enjoyed ourselves! At the same time, we also recorded the first song
in that volume., Parson's In youthly years, with a bass lute and the
singer an octave down. It sounded fine.

Moving into the C17th, of course there are loads of English dialogues for
soprano and bass, with a simple, usually unfigured continuo line.

Stewart and Hector point to Fuellana and Valderabano vihuela songs which
work well. Slightly off topic here, very often the singing part in vihuela
songs is included in the tablature. So if you try to to a song like
Valderabano's Con que la lavare or Corten espadas afilados (vocal line
being the tenor part), with a soprano, you will be playing in parallel
octaves with the singer, which sounds very odd!

Best wishes

Martin


On 24/01/2011 08:45, Franz Mechsner franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk
wrote:

Dear Lutenists,
 
I would love to sing some of the beautiful Renaissance lute (or
vihuela) songs by myself (in private of course...), but cannot find any
for bass voice. Is it that songs were exclusively or mainly composed
for higher pitches of voice? If it was for an ideal of beauty - weren't
there male amateurs who liked to sing as well (as good as they could)
in these times? Could you point me to some suitable sources?
 
Best regards
Franz
 
 
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[LUTE] Lute course in NW England

[Martin Eastwell]

Hi!

The NWEMF Summer School of Renaissance Music runs from 24-30 July in
Ambleside, Cumbria and welcomes players of all standards. As well as
offering individual and group tuition for lutenists, there are many
opportunities for lutenists to work with solo singers, viols, and
instrumental and vocal ensembles of various sizes. The lute tutor is Martin
Eastwell.
Great music, great company, a beautiful location, comfortable
accomodation,and all at a very competitive price.  All details are at
www.nwemf.org.uk, or contact me - eastwe...@mac.com - for more information.
Hope to see you there!

Martin




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[LUTE] Theorbo arpeggiation

[Martin Eastwell]

Hi!

Looking through Francesca Torelli's excellent theorbo tutor (published by Ut
Orpheus Edizioni), I was a little surprised by two of her recommendations
for right hand arpeggiation. She explains (p 23)the technique in which 4
note arpeggios, for example, are played p i m i, with the index finger
playing the highest note of the chord last, on the third course. So the
first bar of Kapsberger's Toccata Seconda Arpeggiata becomes...

---   |-
---   |-
---0---   |-0   repeated 4 times
---3---   |--3---
---3---   |3-
---2---   |---2--
  ./.   p  i  m  i

However, she suggests that once you have played the second note, you should
rest the index finger on the third course ready to play the final note of
the 4 note pattern. I don't play this way myself (though I can make it work)
and wonder if other people do. Also, if there is any mention of this rest
stroke technique in the original sources.

On p 24, she prints the above mentioned Toccata, with the recommendation
that the student should vary the RH fingering patterns so as to ensure that
all the notes in each chord are played in ascending order. The trouble with
this recommendation is that very often in the piece, the notes on the first
and third courses have a melodic function as well as an harmonic one. The
pattern in bar 6, for example, is notated as follows;



---2   which could be realised either as---2  or as

---00---
---3--3-
---3-3--
  ./.  p  i  m  i


  --
  -2
  --  if you follow Torelli's suggestion
  ---0--
  3-
  --3--
   p  m  i  m

Or perhaps-p  i  i  m  ?

The result is that the melodic move Bb-A is reversed.

She admits that This technique may seem complex and difficult in the
beginning...  ! To my ear, it also alters the piece significantly, in this
bar and a number of other places. What do people think? I wonder if anyone
can think of passages like this in the Italian theorbo repertory where the
arpeggiation is written out in full, thus giving us a hint?


Best wishes

martin




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[LUTE] Re: Theorbo arpeggiation

[Martin Eastwell]

Sorry-just noticed an error in my post (near the end)!

The result is that the melodic move Bb-A is reversed.

For Bb-A, please read C-B!

Unless, of course, you play a theorbo in G!

Martin




On 28/2/10 21:38, Martin Eastwell eastwe...@mac.com wrote:

 Hi!
 
 Looking through Francesca Torelli's excellent theorbo tutor (published by Ut
 Orpheus Edizioni), I was a little surprised by two of her recommendations
 for right hand arpeggiation. She explains (p 23)the technique in which 4
 note arpeggios, for example, are played p i m i, with the index finger
 playing the highest note of the chord last, on the third course. So the
 first bar of Kapsberger's Toccata Seconda Arpeggiata becomes...
 
 ---   |-
 ---   |-
 ---0---   |-0   repeated 4 times
 ---3---   |--3---
 ---3---   |3-
 ---2---   |---2--
   ./.   p  i  m  i
 
 However, she suggests that once you have played the second note, you should
 rest the index finger on the third course ready to play the final note of
 the 4 note pattern. I don't play this way myself (though I can make it work)
 and wonder if other people do. Also, if there is any mention of this rest
 stroke technique in the original sources.
 
 On p 24, she prints the above mentioned Toccata, with the recommendation
 that the student should vary the RH fingering patterns so as to ensure that
 all the notes in each chord are played in ascending order. The trouble with
 this recommendation is that very often in the piece, the notes on the first
 and third courses have a melodic function as well as an harmonic one. The
 pattern in bar 6, for example, is notated as follows;
 
 
 
 ---2   which could be realised either as---2  or as
 
 ---00---
 ---3--3-
 ---3-3--
   ./.  p  i  m  i
 
 
   --
   -2
   --  if you follow Torelli's suggestion
   ---0--
   3-
   --3--
p  m  i  m
 
 Or perhaps-p  i  i  m  ?
 
 The result is that the melodic move Bb-A is reversed.
 
 She admits that This technique may seem complex and difficult in the
 beginning...  ! To my ear, it also alters the piece significantly, in this
 bar and a number of other places. What do people think? I wonder if anyone
 can think of passages like this in the Italian theorbo repertory where the
 arpeggiation is written out in full, thus giving us a hint?
 
 
 Best wishes
 
 martin
 
 
 
 
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 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Help with LH fingering

[Martin Eastwell]

I've always played this Capirola passage with my thumb stopping the Bb on
course 6. Also some passages in Newsidler and Francesco da Milano.

As Stephen says, it is a question of having the right 6 course, as this
technique is only possible on a narrow neck. Most modern makers who produce
copies of the Gerle, which has (I think) a width at the nut of 42mm (and
therefore a string band at the nut of less than 40 mm) , widen it to keep
their customers happy. I wish they wouldn't, as this makes them much less
comfortable for the sort left hand positions often seen in early paintings.

Also, I feel left and right hand techniques are related here. Thumb over the
top of the neck means that the lute can be comfortably held at a much lower
angle, thus making it easier for the early RH position with the forearm
nearly parallel to the centreline of the lute.

As well as being used by modern electric players, the LH thumb technique was
widely used by C19th guitarists, notably Giuliani, who often notates it. The
slow movement of his sonata is a very good example. It allows the player to
avoid barres, and thus use open strings or stopped notes lower than the fret
at which the barre would be placed. Sor speaks disapprovingly of the
technique, however, in (I think) his tutor..


Martin E

On 21/1/10 19:08, Stephen Fryer sjfr...@telus.net wrote:

 Leonard Williams wrote:
 I've been working on Capirola's Baleto da balar bello.  The middle section
 has some simple looking but tricky chord shifts which I've been trying in
 various ways to make a smooth transition.  Any recommendations?  The section
 is below in ascii tab (use a monospace font).  The tricky palces are marked
 with an *, but I'm not sure of the accuracy of the marking (e.g., the dotted
 note toward the end belongs at the end--can't seem to find the right font on
 my machine!).  It's a Bb chord going to an Em?
 Thanks and regards,
 Leonard Williams
 
 The problem of fretting the sixth string pretty much goes away if you
 have the right 6-course lute and can stop it with your thumb.  This is a
 common technique with electric guitar and seems to be indicated as a
 possibility in the introduction to the Capirola MS (
 http://www.marincola.com/lutebot1.txt ).
 
 Stephen Fryer
 
 
 
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 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Conradi Sonata

[Martin Eastwell]

Hi!

A Google search on Conradi's name came up with this
http://www.the-orb.net/bibliographies/st-john_bib.html


44. 
Author:   Dithmar, Justus Christoph, 1677-1737.
  Vertot, abbe de, 1655-1735.
Title:Geschichte des ritterlichen Johanniter-Orden : und dessen
  Herren-Meisterthums in der Marck, Sachsen, Pommern und
  Wendland / von Justus Christoph Dithmar ...
  Geschichte des Johanniter-Orden.
Place:Franckfurth an der Oder :
Publisher:Bey Johann Gottfried Conradi,
Date: 1728.

 I think it is a bibliography about the Knights of St John. Conradi's name
is given as a publisher of item 44 in the list. If this is right, I wonder
what else he published? No reason a publisher should not compose lute music,
of course!


Best wishes

martin

On 11/1/10 17:31, Daniel Winheld dwinh...@comcast.net wrote:

 Ed Martin has learned quite a bit about the multiple Conradis- and
 has recorded them as well. Perhaps he will weigh in here on this,
 unless it was already dealt with and  may be in the archives.
 
 Dan
 
 
 I didn't know Conradi's music so thanks for sharing these beautiful pieces.
 I'd love to hear that Barto's bootleg!
 
 I looked at the New Grove Dictionary of Music and found there are two
 Conradi. Based on the publication date you give (1724), I guess these works
 are from Johann Melchior, son of Johann Georg, both Kapellmeisters at
 Oettingen. Nonetheless, the New Grove doesn't mention any lute works by
 them...

-- End of Forwarded Message




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[LUTE] Odd problem with the list

[Martin Eastwell]

   Thanks Ed!
   In fact I'm using Microsoft Entourage on my Mac, which does keep the
   Re: posts together with the original message. It also allows you to
   search for the keywords in the subject-Conradi in the case I gave,
   and I definitely am missing the original post in this, and a number of
   other cases. When I get time, I'll try setting Apple Mail up to access
   my mail and see if it does any better!
   Martin
   On 12/1/10 13:32, Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp wrote:

 On Jan 12, 2010, at 1:13 AM, Martin Eastwell wrote:

 I've recently noticed that I seem to be missing the original posts
 on a
 number of threads. The giveaway is that I get a lot of messages
 beginning
 with Re: but no sign of the original post. For example, the
 current thread
 entitled Conradi Sonata. And yes, I've checked my spam box! Has
 anyone
 else had this problem? Is there anything I can do about it?

 Yes, I'm using Mail on a Mac and I have Organize by Threads checked
 in the view menu. In my case, the original message is usually there,
 I just often forget to look for it. Or, more often, I'll see a post,
 write a reply and then find a dozen other responses that other
 people had already posted saying the same thing I said. I, of
 course, didn't see them because I'm working my way through my email
 chronologically and for some reason the original post isn't kept
 together with all the Re posts. (I thought that is what Organize
 by Threads is supposed to do). The solution is to View by Subject.

 Ed Durbrow
 Saitama, Japan
 edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp
 [1]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/

   -- End of Forwarded Message
   --

References

   1. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/


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[LUTE] Odd problem with the list

[Martin Eastwell]

Hi!

I've recently noticed that I seem to be missing the original posts on a
number of threads. The giveaway is that I get a lot of messages beginning
with Re: but no sign of the original post. For example, the current thread
entitled Conradi Sonata. And yes, I've checked my spam box! Has anyone
else had this problem? Is there anything I can do about it? All my other
email seems to be arriving.

Thanks, and Happy New Year!

Martin




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dutch theorbo painting online

[Martin Eastwell]

If I remember correctly, Holbein in The Ambassadors painted a broken
string on the octave of the 4th course. One would naturally tend to depict
course one as broken, but of course the octave on the 4th course is only a
tone below course one. I assume Holbein was showing off his musical
knowledge, alongside the symbolism of broken strings.


Martin 


On 9/5/09 08:11, lute...@aol.com lute...@aol.com wrote:

 Return-path: lute...@aol.com
 From: lute...@aol.com
 Full-name: Lutesoc
 Message-ID: c1c.560e9f1b.37368...@aol.com
 Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 03:11:21 EDT
 Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dutch theorbo painting online
 To: theoj89...@aol.com
 MIME-Version: 1.0
 Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary=-1241853081
 X-Mailer: AOL 9.0 VR sub 47
 
 
 ---1241853081
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
 
 
 Alciati's book of emblems [1530s?] says a lute with a broken string means a
  broken pact or discord - famous for it's use in Holbein painting. Or could
 it be  a vanitas / memento mori painting?
 
 best wishes
 Chris Goodwin
 
 I didn't  even notice the broken strings...
 Such paintings were so often packed with  subtle symbolism -
 Does anyone have an idea why the painter would go  to the trouble of
 painting a lute with broken strings - what meaning would  that convey?
 
 I'm intrigued-
 
 
 
 
 ---1241853081
 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
 !DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN
 HTMLHEAD
 META http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 META content=MSHTML 6.00.2900.3354 name=GENERATOR/HEAD
 BODY id=role_body style=FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #00; FONT-FAMILY: Arial
 bottomMargin=7 leftMargin=7 topMargin=7 rightMargin=7FONT id=role_document
 face=Arial color=#00 size=2
 DIV
 DIVAlciati's book of emblems [1530s?] says a lute with a broken string means
 a
 broken pact or discord - famous for it's use in Holbein painting. Or could it
 be
 a vanitas / memento mori painting?/DIV
 DIV /DIV
 DIVbest wishes/DIV
 DIVChris Goodwin /DIV
 BLOCKQUOTE
 style=PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solidFONT
   style=BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent face=Arial color=#00 size=2I
 didn't
   even notice the broken strings...BRSuch paintings were so often packed
 with
   subtle symbolism - BRDoes anyone have an idea why the painter would go
   to the trouble of painting a lute with broken strings - what meaning would
   that convey?BRBRI'm intrigued-/FONT/BLOCKQUOTE/DIV
 DIV/DIV
 DIV /DIV/FONT/BODY/HTML
 
 ---1241853081--
 
 --
 
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dutch theorbo painting online

[Martin Eastwell]

If you zoom in, it seems that the lute has one or more carefully painted
broken strings. She's not just holding the lute the wrong way round, but the
lute itself is unplayable!

Martin


On 8/5/09 13:55, David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 2:20 PM,  theoj89...@aol.com wrote:



 Sotheby's New York will be auctioning a Dutch painting of a theorbo  gamba


 (the woman doesn't appear to know how to hold a theorbo

 I'd call that a Dutch-head lute or possibly English theorbo, but
 what's far more interesting: she's holding the instrument
 left-handedly, right hand crossing all the diapassons, and is rather
 in the way of the gentleman's bow. But the doggy knows what it's all
 about: a pretty girl with a lute!

 Great painting, thanks for diverting my attention from tax paper
 (nearly finished!) to something else.

 David




   there are interesting f-holes on the gamba)


 LOT 45





 ADRIAEN VAN DER WERFF, EGLON HENDRICK VAN DER NEER


 ADRIAEN VAN DER WERFF, KRALINGEN-AMBACHT 1659 - 1722 ROTTERDAM; EGLON
 HENDRICK VAN DER NEER, AMSTERDAM CIRCA 1634 - 1703 DÜSSELDORF


 A LADY PLAYING THE LUTE AND A GENTLEMAN WITH A VIOLA DA GAMBA


 It can be seen at:





 http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?lot_id=159539118





 Estimated price 100,000 - 150,000 dollars US


 Good luck bidding!






 trj








 --

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 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: mandora/gallichon music

[Martin Eastwell]

I believe that it is a problem with the way this PDF is generated. The PDF
format should embed the font in the document. I can't read this on my Mac,
though lots of other PDF's from the same site work fine.


Martin


On 22/2/08 22:58, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Just checked on my Mac as well. A problem indeed, both Acrobat and Preview.
 No problem on the PC though, but I have the font in question there.
 RT
 - Original Message -
 From: Ray Brohinsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 5:48 PM
 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: mandora/gallichon music
 
 
 Mine is pretty far from Stuart's, and I get the same message and black
 balls everywhere a character should be on the music pages.
 
 The demo copy of django doesn't have an external font file, either.
 Maybe this is something that requires that the PDF be regenerated, or
 maybe the original Django.ttf (if such existed) could be made
 available?
 
 
 On Jan 22, 2008 5:21 PM, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Try a different PDF reader.
 RT
 
 
 There is a pdf of music for gallichon (Brescianello )on this page:
 
 http://luth-librairie.ifrance.com/
 
 but it needs the 'django' font. Do you have to pay for this font or do
 you have to own the 'Django' software?
 
 
 I've come across some mandora/gallichon music, also of Brescianello, in
 pdf form by Michael Treder which is fine.
 
 
 I have the Brussells MS of mandora music and I have access to the Tree
 edition mandora MS (that was a bit of a surprise!). Are there any other
 reasonably accessible sources of mandora/gallichon music?
 Linda Sayce gave a talk to the Lute Society a few years ago and listed
 many sources of music for the instrument. But (from a British
 perspective) they look rather inaccessible.
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 __
 D O T E A S Y - Join the web hosting revolution!
  http://www.doteasy.com
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 __
 D O T E A S Y - Join the web hosting revolution!
  http://www.doteasy.com
 
 

[LUTE] Re: recording with ZOOM H2

[Martin Eastwell]

I have tried the clip several times with both Safari and Firefox on my Mac
without any problems.

Nice sound-I'd be interested to hear where the recorder/mics were placed,
also any info about the size of the room it was recorded (including ceiling
height!). It is usually very hard to record lutes nicely in a normal
domestic setting.

Martin 


On 13/1/08 22:10, Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Yes, finally worked once on Safari, and the lute did seem very clear
 for Mp3, on the Lochamer Liederbuch piece, which comes over very well.
   Thanks for the tip Eric, and to Wolfgang for allowing us to hear
 it. However, I was not able to repeat theoperation a second time, so
 there is still an incompatibility with esnips and MAC.
 Anthony
 
 Le 13 janv. 08 à 22:43, Eric Crouch a écrit :
 
 In Safari, click on the link above the files that says 'Listen'. It
 plays the three tracks in order. The sound is very impressive!
 
 Eric Crouch
 
 
 
 On 13 Jan 2008, at 21:33, Gernot Hilger wrote:
 
 Ed,
 
 this is a non-Mac site. I tried all my browsers to no avail. Sorry!
 
 g
 
 On 13.01.2008, at 16:52, Ed Durbrow wrote:
 
 When I click on a piece it takes me to another window. Do you
 have to
 join just to listen?
 
 On Jan 13, 2008, at 7:31 AM, Daniel F Heiman wrote:
 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 hi all,
 if someone is interested. i got the ZOOM 2H today and did my first
 recording (work in progress :-). it is easy to handle. look at:
 http://www.esnips.com/web/lautenklang/
 
 Ed Durbrow
 Saitama, Japan
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
 
 
 
 --
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge

[Martin Eastwell]

 the sources
 got it wrong or were purposefully misleading? What would be his
 motivation to change?
 
 Just a sec, let me get my flame shield.
 
 On Dec 17, 2007, at 7:19 PM, Martin Eastwell wrote:
 
 I would tend to assume that a player like Dowland would not go off
 on a
 European tour having just made a major technical change.
 
 
 
 
 
 Ed Durbrow
 Saitama, Japan
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
 
 
 
 --
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 --
 No virus found in this incoming message.
 Checked by AVG Free Edition.
 Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1210 - Release Date:
 1/5/2008 11:46 AM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 --

[LUTE] Re: List confusion

[Martin Eastwell]

Dear Stewart

The trouble is that at least with my email software (Microsoft Entourage),
simply clicking on reply, automatically inserts the address of the person
who posted the message, and does not insert the address of the list. So it
takes a conscious effort to change things round. If, like me, you are
careless and forgetful, it is easy to send a message to an individual
sender, realise what you have done, and then have to send it again to the
whole list. I did this only the other day.
Is there a way to set the list up so that clicking on reply does the right
thing by default? This happens with other lists that I subscribe to.

If this seems to go against the thoughts attributed to me in the quotes
below, (from Martin Eastwell rattled at the keyboard onwards), that is
because Taco wrote them, not me, as you will see if you look closely!

Best wishes

Martin


On 17/12/07 16:28, Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Dear Taco,
 
 I agree. Doing what you suggest might also help to rid us of the habit so
 many s**bscribers have, of replying to the lute list as well as sending a
 c.c. to an individual, as if that individual was somehow not a s**bscriber.
 It is irritating and unnecessary to receive the same message twice.
 
 Although subject matter inevitably overlaps from one list to another, I
 prefer having separate lists.
 
 Best wishes,
 
 Stewart McCoy.
 
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Taco Walstra [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Martin Eastwell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: Baroque lutelist [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 12:56 PM
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: List confusion
 
 
 On Monday 17 December 2007 13:56, Martin Eastwell rattled on the keyboard:
 Hi,
 I asked Wayne to change the mail headers because that's the reason why
 this
 happens. A reply on an email should primarily be directed to the list
 where
 it originates instead of the person who sent the email.
 This can be done by substituting the mailing list email address in the
 reply-to header which now contains the person email address. This is also
 how
 many other mailing lists work.
 Taco
 Dear All
 
 At the moment, the discussion Re: RH on the bridge is split across the
 main lute list and the baroque lute list. This happens all the time, and
 is
 very confusing for most of us! Would we not be better off with a single
 list?
 
 
 As so often happens, the topic we are discussing strays from pre Dowland
 to
 the 18th Century. When does Baroque begin anyway?! Medieval is easier-we
 all know that the Middle Ages stopped when lutenists gave up the
 plectrum!
 
 
 An alternative would be for the little bit of information on subscribing
 added to the end of each message, to also contain guidelines on posting
 to
 the correct list.
 
 
 Best wishes
 
 Martin
 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] List confusion

[Martin Eastwell]

Dear All

At the moment, the discussion Re: RH on the bridge is split across the
main lute list and the baroque lute list. This happens all the time, and is
very confusing for most of us! Would we not be better off with a single
list? 


As so often happens, the topic we are discussing strays from pre Dowland to
the 18th Century. When does Baroque begin anyway?! Medieval is easier-we all
know that the Middle Ages stopped when lutenists gave up the plectrum!


An alternative would be for the little bit of information on subscribing
added to the end of each message, to also contain guidelines on posting to
the correct list.


Best wishes

Martin




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[LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?

[Martin Eastwell]

As someone who plays both thumb in and out, I'm surprised at the suggestion
that thumb out is harder. In my experience, the fact that the right hand is
static in thumb out playing makes the business of integrating chords with
single lines very much easier, especially when I'm playing the nice 8 course
Martin Shepherd made for me!

There is no great mystery about thumb out-it is the technique everyone used
30 years ago, but discarded. We are just not used to it today. If we have
difficulties now, it could have something to do with modern instruments
being optimised for the earlier technique. As an example, I have played
quite a number of 7-10 course lutes which have been set up with more space
between the courses than typical historical instruments. This can make thumb
under playing easier, but makes crossing strings much harder for the thumb
out player.



Martin (Eastwell)



On 15/12/07 09:44, Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Dear All,
 
 I just found that I wrote this (in the context of explaining thumb-in,
 thumb-out) a while ago:
 
 Thumb-out is more difficult, and I think we have some way to
 go before we really master it (though Nigel North seems to have sorted
 it out).  It is further complicated by the correct position of the
 hand being so close to the bridge, a position which usually yields
 disappointing results, whatever kind of strings are used.  But we're
 working on it.
 
 Well, working on it indeed.  Rob MacKillop has just recorded a piece
 with the little finger on the bridge, and while I'm not so keen on the
 sound as on the first sound clip on the same lute, it seems to work -
 see www.rmguitar.info/Maler.htm
 
 Has anyone else tried this?
 
 Best wishes,
 
 Martin
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?

[Martin Eastwell]

Dear Martyn

You are quite right that more serious players in recent years have begun to
experiment with the thumb-out technique, but I am afraid that it will take a
long time to percolate into the wider lute playing world. In the last
decade, I've seen very few performances using this technique, though
certainly more than I would have done 20 years ago. In my experience, the
technique is more recognised than practised. Teaching on summer schools, I
make a point of talking about historical RH techniques at some point, and
have quite often encountered surprise and even hostility from students
because what I was suggesting flew in the face of the teachings or
performing practice of their favourite lute guru.
 
This thread is entitled RH on the bridge-in fact, much of the C17th
evidence about this technique suggests a position in which the RH little
finger rests below the bridge. Mace suggests putting it close under the
bridge, about the first, 2nd, 3rd , or 4th strings.If you actually try
this, it results in a position in which the fingers are more or less at
right angles to the strings. My own experience of this is that the square on
hand position further sharpens the sound already made sharp by the fact that
the hand is plucking very close to the bridge. I think our ideas about
good tone on the lute are due for a shake-up!

I have an 11 course lute made in 1983, which has a very honourable dirt mark
below the bridge caused by years of playing in just this way. I feel that
the age of the instrument has a lot to do with it. Mace was writing about an
era which valued old Bologna lutes made in the early C16th, and certainly
well played in by 1676!

The technique is also associated in my mind with the new tunings of the
C17th. These tunings can be regarded as involving lowering the upper courses
of the old tuning, and it seems probable to me that they developed in just
this way. If you take a standard ten course lute in old tuning and lower
courses 1 and 2 to give the sharp tuning, or 1,2,and three for flatyou
can find, perhaps rather to your surprise that it sounds quite good in spite
of the tension imbalances. In particular, that the first course sounds much
less spiky. You might then want to leave it at that pitch, and simply put
slightly thicker strings on the two upper courses. I've ended up discovering
that when I do so, I no longer need the extra tension on courses 1 and 2
that are fairly standard in modern string schedules, probably because the
strings in question are now well below their breaking pitch. Of course, this
solution to the problem flies in the face of the high nominal pitches given
for lutes by Mace and (if I remember correctly), Talbot.

Your point about theobos and double stringing reminds me that perhaps I
should try it when my new one comes along!


Martin (Eastwell!)

On 15/12/07 13:25, Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Dear Martin,

Your belief that thumb out is not used today ('discarded'), if I understand
 you right, is surprising since it seems directly contrary to the latest
 informed views. It is certainly true that in the very first big bang of lute
 playing in the 20thC (the 1960/70s), thumb out was the general technique and
 that this soon changed as some lutenists looked at early 16thC icongraphy and
 'discovered' the thumb in/under position. This also conveniently enabled
 lutenists to distance themselves from the modern 'classical' guitar which
 became something of a badge of honour amongst them..

   However, in the last decade or so there has been a healthy return to base
 hand positions more on what the 'Old Ones' actually did (contemporary
 descriptions as well as iconography); so that the change to thumb out starting
 in the second half of the 16thC and its almost general application by the
 17thC is now recognised,  directly contrary to what I understand is your
 belief.  The latest development concerning playing much closer to the bridge
 is but a further step along this road of rediscovery.  It also enables us to
 play double strung theorbos with greater force thus I hope spelling, if not
 the end then, a reduction in the current widespread use amongst many continuo
 players of single strung theorboes (you'll be aware that the majoirty of
 extant instruments and iconography shows double strings on the fingerboard).
 As a final aside, it also enables us to make some sense of why the row of
 jacks closest to the bridge on English harpsichords were called the 'lute' or
  theorbo' stop.

I'm also not so sure about bridge string spacing: what sort of spacing are
 we talking about?

   regards

   Martyn


 Martin Eastwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   As someone who plays both thumb in and out, I'm surprised at the suggestion
 that thumb out is harder. In my experience, the fact that the right hand is
 static in thumb out playing makes the business of integrating chords with
 single lines very much easier, especially

[LUTE] Re: {lute} Re: RH on the bridge

[Martin Eastwell]

Dear Martyn

You are quite right that more serious players in recent years have begun to
experiment with the thumb-out technique, but I am afraid that it will take a
long time to percolate into the wider lute playing world. In the last
decade, I've seen very few performances using this technique, though
certainly more than I would have done 20 years ago. In my experience, the
technique is more recognised than practised. Teaching on summer schools, I
make a point of talking about historical RH techniques at some point, and
have quite often encountered surprise and even hostility from students
because what I was suggesting flew in the face of the teachings or
performing practice of their favourite lute guru.
 
This thread is entitled RH on the bridge-in fact, much of the C17th
evidence about this technique suggests a position in which the RH little
finger rests below the bridge. Mace suggests putting it close under the
bridge, about the first, 2nd, 3rd , or 4th strings.If you actually try
this, it results in a position in which the fingers are more or less at
right angles to the strings. My own experience of this is that the square on
hand position further sharpens the sound already made sharp by the fact that
the hand is plucking very close to the bridge. I think our ideas about
good tone on the lute are due for a shake-up!

I have an 11 course lute made in 1983, which has a very honourable dirt mark
below the bridge caused by years of playing in just this way. I feel that
the age of the instrument has a lot to do with it. Mace was writing about an
era which valued old Bologna lutes made in the early C16th, and certainly
well played in by 1676!

The technique is also associated in my mind with the new tunings of the
C17th. These tunings can be regarded as involving lowering the upper courses
of the old tuning, and it seems probable to me that they developed in just
this way. If you take a standard ten course lute in old tuning and lower
courses 1 and 2 to give the sharp tuning, or 1,2,and three for flatyou
can find, perhaps rather to your surprise that it sounds quite good in spite
of the tension imbalances. In particular, that the first course sounds much
less spiky. You might then want to leave it at that pitch, and simply put
slightly thicker strings on the two upper courses. I've ended up discovering
that when I do so, I no longer need the extra tension on courses 1 and 2
that are fairly standard in modern string schedules, probably because the
strings in question are now well below their breaking pitch. Of course, this
solution to the problem flies in the face of the high nominal pitches given
for lutes by Mace and (if I remember correctly), Talbot.

Your point about theobos and double stringing reminds me that perhaps I
should try it when my new one comes along!


Martin (Eastwell!)

On 15/12/07 13:25, Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Dear Martin,

Your belief that thumb out is not used today ('discarded'), if I understand
 you right, is surprising since it seems directly contrary to the latest
 informed views. It is certainly true that in the very first big bang of lute
 playing in the 20thC (the 1960/70s), thumb out was the general technique and
 that this soon changed as some lutenists looked at early 16thC icongraphy and
 'discovered' the thumb in/under position. This also conveniently enabled
 lutenists to distance themselves from the modern 'classical' guitar which
 became something of a badge of honour amongst them..

   However, in the last decade or so there has been a healthy return to base
 hand positions more on what the 'Old Ones' actually did (contemporary
 descriptions as well as iconography); so that the change to thumb out starting
 in the second half of the 16thC and its almost general application by the
 17thC is now recognised,  directly contrary to what I understand is your
 belief.  The latest development concerning playing much closer to the bridge
 is but a further step along this road of rediscovery.  It also enables us to
 play double strung theorbos with greater force thus I hope spelling, if not
 the end then, a reduction in the current widespread use amongst many continuo
 players of single strung theorboes (you'll be aware that the majoirty of
 extant instruments and iconography shows double strings on the fingerboard).
 As a final aside, it also enables us to make some sense of why the row of
 jacks closest to the bridge on English harpsichords were called the 'lute' or
  theorbo' stop.

I'm also not so sure about bridge string spacing: what sort of spacing are
 we talking about?

   regards

   Martyn


 Martin Eastwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   As someone who plays both thumb in and out, I'm surprised at the suggestion
 that thumb out is harder. In my experience, the fact that the right hand is
 static in thumb out playing makes the business of integrating chords with
 single lines very much easier, especially

[LUTE] Re: {LUTE) Re: RH on the bridge?

[Martin Eastwell]

Denys,

I think most people would find Besard's tolerant attitude appealing.
Historical technique is not the only thing that matters. I am happy to
listen to fine playing by a good musician, even if he/she has made some
perfectly reasonable practical compromises about technique. I certainly
don't want the authenticity police to start to range the lute world-though
at times in the recent past, the attitude of the thumb under rules school
has had a rather Victorian complacency to it. I remember a student returning
form a course with a Famous Lutenist around 1994, who had told him that he
found it hard to believe that that people were still playing thumb out!

Remember, however that Besard's instructions date from 1603 or earlier-right
in the middle of the technique changeover. For most of the music in Varietie
of Lute Lessons, or Thesaurus Harmonicus, I'd be fairly happy to play either
thumb out or thumb under-though of course Besard does actually argue for
thumb out. Later writers, for example Vallet and Stobeus are not so
tolerant. Perhaps the reason for this is that musical styles began to change
to make use of the particular attributes of the newer technique. I have in
mind works like the Robert Johnson Fantasia, or the wonderful Fantasias of
Cuthbert Hely, which make great use of the contrasted registers of the lute,
and containing many passages of two note chords on courses 4,5,and 6,
together with a note on the diapason strings. I find that thumb out on gut
strings gives much greater clarity in such passages because the fingers are
striking the lower strings much closer to the bridge.

Thumb under seems to me to favour an equal balance between treble and
bass-the thumb is closer to the bridge relative to the fingers. Thumb out
seems to give more contrast between the registers of the lute-brighter
treble strings with warm basses. Good for dance music, and remember that
dance music seems to be at the core of the  English lute repertory in
Dowland's time. If I am right about the move towards greater contrast
between registers, then this change would also have been accentuated by the
move away from octave bass stringing, which Dowland documents.


Best wishes

Martin

On 15/12/07 18:00, Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
 Dear All,
 A word of advice from one of the 'old ones:'
 
 
 'Neither would I have thee thinke that in this that I detract
 from the other differing ways, which other men do use, not
 unfitly, so that there be reason for them, and an easy gracefulnesse
 in them. For a man may come to the same place divers ways, and that
 sweet Harmony of the Lute (the habit whereof wee doe daily affect with so
 great travaile) may strike our eares with an elegant delighte, though the
 hand be diversly applied.'
 
 From 'Necessarie observations belonging to the lute, and lute playing'
 John Baptisto Besardo, translated by John Dowland, A Varietie of lute
 lessons,
 London, 1610. 
 
 Best wishes,
 
 Denys
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: David Rastall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 15 December 2007 15:51
 To: Martin Eastwell
 Cc: Martyn Hodgson; Martin Shepherd; Lute Net
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
 
 On Dec 15, 2007, at 10:19 AM, Martin Eastwell wrote:
 
 I
 make a point of talking about historical RH techniques at some point,
 and have quite often encountered surprise and even hostility from
 students because what I was suggesting flew in the face of the
 teachings or performing practice of their favourite lute guru.
 
 Then the guru's are wrong.  The teachings and performance practices of the
 Old Ones are what we should be studying, and alas, this goes against what we
 learn from the gurus who have invented this hybrid thumb-in / thumb-out
 thing because they themselves can't handle the way the lute was played in
 the old days.  Yes, we are going to have to drastically re-evaluate our
 ideas of what kind of sound the Old Ones were actually going for!
 
 My $0.02
 
 DR
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
 
 
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 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: old lutes

[Martin Eastwell]

Exactly what is soundboard re-tensioning?


Martin


On 8/12/07 08:01, David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Just retension the soundboard, and at the same time say which notes
 you would like to better, and a skilled luthier can do this, and it
 will sound better than a new one.
 I have a theorbo from 1983 from Klaus that has been retensioned twice
 and the sound is the most interesting.
 
 dt
 
 
 
 
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 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 18th-century right hand fingering (long)

[Martin Eastwell]

Dear Stewart

Someone early on in this thread suggested that Thomas Mace nowhere suggests
the use of the ring finger. In fact he does-p.101, in describing how to play
4 part chords (arpeggiated). He also says it is no longer fashionable. And
he does suggest resting the little finger below the bridge, with no
suggestion that it should ever be lifted.  For Weiss, there are numerous
sections of 4 part chords, often with the direction arpeggio, which are
much easier with the use of the ring finger. There is also a portrait of
Princess Wilhelmine (sister of Frederick the Great), a known fan of Weiss,
playing with a right hand position that is pure Thomas Mace.

I've been playing with my little finger close to, and at times behind, the
bridge, for many years, without problems. I have an 11 course lute I've
owned since 1982, and have noticed that one effect as the instrument ages is
that the treble string responds more easily, and works with a lower string
tension than whan it was new. Playing this way does produce an increased
polarisation between the tone colours of bass and treble registers-but then,
that is how I like it! I do sometimes feel that modern lute players have
rather set ideas about what constitutes good tone




On 7/1/07 17:51, Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Dear Robert,
 
 Thank you for what you say about right-hand fingering, and for
 giving us the two website addresses.
 
 Whether or not it is a good idea to use the ring finger is
 determined to some extent by one's hand position in relation to the
 bridge. If one's right hand plucks close to the rose, the ring
 finger can join in efficiently with the other fingers. If, on the
 other hand, the right hand is held very close to the bridge, or even
 with the little finger on or behind the bridge, the ring finger
 cannot match the sound of the other fingers, assuming it can even
 reach the strings in the first place. A source which advocates the
 use or non-use of the ring finger not only tells us about right-hand
 fingering, but also provides a clue as to where the hand should be
 held in relation to the bridge.
 
 Playing close to the bridge produces a crisp, clear sound, which is
 desirable if there is lots of sympathetic resonance from a large
 number of strings, but it means losing the option of using the
 fourth finger. It is certainly a disadvantage, if the ring finger is
 not available for arpeggiating four-note chords. I just wonder if
 some players might sometimes have moved their right hand away from
 the bridge towards the rose, not so much for the resultant change in
 timbre, but so that they could bring the ring finger into play for
 certain passages, and move it back again when the texture thins out.
 I am aware that Thomas Mace says that the little finger should stay
 glued to the same spot.
 
 Thank you, by the way, for your talk on this subject to the Lute
 Society some time ago. You gave us much food for thought.
 
 Best wishes,
 
 Stewart McCoy.
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Robert Barto [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: BAROQUE-LUTE-LIST baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 8:05 PM
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] 18th-century right hand fingering (long)
 
 
 Wayne tells me this should come through now.
 
 I've done a little article on 18th-century right hand fingering
 that will be
 appearing in one of the next LSA quarterlies, so I don't want to
 say too
 much here. But it is evident from Wroclaw 2002 (Kniebandl) and
 several other
 sources, that the ring finger was used commonly in four voice
 chords and
 arpeggios. (It's difficult to date this MS, but even assuming
 1730-1760 it
 is still of interest.)
 
 The MS can be found here:
 
 http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01tc/Wroclaw2002/
 
 And more about it, here:
 
 http://www.tabulatura.de/Knieban/KNintro.htm
 
 In the London and Dresden Weiss manuscripts, there are a total of
 (I think)
 three or four notated ring finger signs. (Dresden p.248 Bb
 Sarabande, son.
 25, London p.56v Prelude dm son.13, London p.89r, Hartig Tombeau,
 have ring
 finger notated. Where else? )But one can assume that Weiss used
 the ring
 finger in arpeggios similarly to the examples in Wroclaw and
 elsewhere. In
 these situations it would have been so common that he wouldn't
 have to
 mention it. (Four voice chords and longer arpeggios.)
 
 This is not to say that he did not use certain two finger customs
 or
 tricks that came from the earlier tradition. Many of his
 fingerings, for
 example in the Eb prelude on page 145v in London, indicate this.
 ( He may
 have written them out because they were not obvious, or for a
 special
 effect.)
 
 In the larger arpeggios, especially in the preludes and fantasias,
 one of
 course can decide whether to jump up from the bass with the thumb,
 as Weiss
 often specifies, or to use the ring finger in the middle and top
 somewhere.
 In the larger arpeggios in the allegros and prestos, one can
 assume that the
 ring finger was used, again as 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 18th-century right hand fingering (long)

[Martin Eastwell]

Dear Per

I do have the reference and a murky photocopy of this picture somewhere, but
can't find it at the moment-I'll look tomorrow, and send the info if I can
find it.The picture is by Antoine Pesne.

Martin 


On 10/1/07 21:41, Martin Eastwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Dear Stewart
 
 Someone early on in this thread suggested that Thomas Mace nowhere suggests
 the use of the ring finger. In fact he does-p.101, in describing how to play
 4 part chords (arpeggiated). He also says it is no longer fashionable. And
 he does suggest resting the little finger below the bridge, with no
 suggestion that it should ever be lifted.  For Weiss, there are numerous
 sections of 4 part chords, often with the direction arpeggio, which are
 much easier with the use of the ring finger. There is also a portrait of
 Princess Wilhelmine (sister of Frederick the Great), a known fan of Weiss,
 playing with a right hand position that is pure Thomas Mace.
 
 I've been playing with my little finger close to, and at times behind, the
 bridge, for many years, without problems. I have an 11 course lute I've
 owned since 1982, and have noticed that one effect as the instrument ages is
 that the treble string responds more easily, and works with a lower string
 tension than whan it was new. Playing this way does produce an increased
 polarisation between the tone colours of bass and treble registers-but then,
 that is how I like it! I do sometimes feel that modern lute players have
 rather set ideas about what constitutes good tone
 
 
 
 
 On 7/1/07 17:51, Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Dear Robert,
 
 Thank you for what you say about right-hand fingering, and for
 giving us the two website addresses.
 
 Whether or not it is a good idea to use the ring finger is
 determined to some extent by one's hand position in relation to the
 bridge. If one's right hand plucks close to the rose, the ring
 finger can join in efficiently with the other fingers. If, on the
 other hand, the right hand is held very close to the bridge, or even
 with the little finger on or behind the bridge, the ring finger
 cannot match the sound of the other fingers, assuming it can even
 reach the strings in the first place. A source which advocates the
 use or non-use of the ring finger not only tells us about right-hand
 fingering, but also provides a clue as to where the hand should be
 held in relation to the bridge.
 
 Playing close to the bridge produces a crisp, clear sound, which is
 desirable if there is lots of sympathetic resonance from a large
 number of strings, but it means losing the option of using the
 fourth finger. It is certainly a disadvantage, if the ring finger is
 not available for arpeggiating four-note chords. I just wonder if
 some players might sometimes have moved their right hand away from
 the bridge towards the rose, not so much for the resultant change in
 timbre, but so that they could bring the ring finger into play for
 certain passages, and move it back again when the texture thins out.
 I am aware that Thomas Mace says that the little finger should stay
 glued to the same spot.
 
 Thank you, by the way, for your talk on this subject to the Lute
 Society some time ago. You gave us much food for thought.
 
 Best wishes,
 
 Stewart McCoy.
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Robert Barto [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: BAROQUE-LUTE-LIST baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 8:05 PM
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] 18th-century right hand fingering (long)
 
 
 Wayne tells me this should come through now.
 
 I've done a little article on 18th-century right hand fingering
 that will be
 appearing in one of the next LSA quarterlies, so I don't want to
 say too
 much here. But it is evident from Wroclaw 2002 (Kniebandl) and
 several other
 sources, that the ring finger was used commonly in four voice
 chords and
 arpeggios. (It's difficult to date this MS, but even assuming
 1730-1760 it
 is still of interest.)
 
 The MS can be found here:
 
 http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01tc/Wroclaw2002/
 
 And more about it, here:
 
 http://www.tabulatura.de/Knieban/KNintro.htm
 
 In the London and Dresden Weiss manuscripts, there are a total of
 (I think)
 three or four notated ring finger signs. (Dresden p.248 Bb
 Sarabande, son.
 25, London p.56v Prelude dm son.13, London p.89r, Hartig Tombeau,
 have ring
 finger notated. Where else? )But one can assume that Weiss used
 the ring
 finger in arpeggios similarly to the examples in Wroclaw and
 elsewhere. In
 these situations it would have been so common that he wouldn't
 have to
 mention it. (Four voice chords and longer arpeggios.)
 
 This is not to say that he did not use certain two finger customs
 or
 tricks that came from the earlier tradition. Many of his
 fingerings, for
 example in the Eb prelude on page 145v in London, indicate this.
 ( He may
 have written them out because they were not obvious, or for a
 special
 effect.)
 
 In the larger arpeggios, especially

[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Martin Eastwell]

Vance-
I wonder if you have seriously experimented with playing this this  
way? If you can stand big downloads, I will happily turn an old  
recording of me playing F Da Milano (Ness 33) with just such a  
technique, into an MP3, and send it to you (or anyone who is  
interested)! If you know the woodcut of a lutenist from Marcolini's   
Intabolatura di liuto (Venice 1536), then that will give a fair idea  
of the way I play a 6 course lute. Doug Alton Smith actually suggests  
that the player may be Francesco! The main difference is that,  
being tall, I cross my left leg over my right ,close to my left  
ankle, and this raises the lute to a position higher up my chest,  
like the player in the woodcut.
Why do I bother? Well, I feel there is an inherent conflict between  
the standard LH technique taught to lutenists today(which is  
basically the same as modern classical guitar technique), and the low  
neck angle needed for historical thumb under RH technique. I don't  
for a minute think that everyone should follow my example, and I  
believe, as I said, that it is not suitable for later repertories or  
for lutes with more than 6 courses-the wider neck makes it  
impractical. I do find it helps in several important respects.
1.The very narrow necks of surviving 6 course lutes are usually  
widened by modern makers of replicas. Mine is not, and when playing  
with the neck cradled, I find that the fact that the left hand lies  
against the neck, results in the left hand fingers falling on the  
strings either perpendicular to the fingerboard, or beyond  
perpedicular. This lifts the pad of my (quite broad) fingertips away  
from strings they might otherwise foul, while the fingernails act as  
a fence to prevent the pad of the finger spreading out on the other  
side.
2. I find that when shifting positions, I don't need to use guide  
fingers so much, as the light contact of the hand on the neck serves  
as a guide instead. A similar effect is apparent with rapid and  
complex chord changes-it is easy to move all the fingers at once,  
rather than stabilising my hand with finger contact.
3. I have a long upper body, and if I try to play with a low neck  
angle, standard modern LH technique makes my left shoulder drop,  
causing tension and back pain. This problem disappears  with the  
thumb wrapped round the neck.

I should make it clear that while I can happily play simple music  
standing up without a strap, I would alway sit down for more complex  
music. It is also worth mentioning that the thumb over the neck  
technique was highly developed by C19th guitar virtuosi such as  
Giuliani, who wrote many passages that are almost unplayable without  
fingering the 6th string with the thumb (often clearly indicated in   
the notation). Fernando Sor argued against this in his tutor-I'm sure  
there were similar arguments in the C16th!

Let me know if you'd like that MP3!

Best wishes

Martin



On 4 May 2006, at 22:21:46, Vance Wood wrote:

 I believe that left hand cradling does three things, two of them  
 bad.  One
 it obviously holds the neck of the Lute steady which is better than  
 having
 it flop around all over the place because you have not found a way  
 to secure
 it any other way.  Two: it is the worst possible habit to get into  
 that will
 affect your playing for years to come even if you find a way to  
 secure the
 instrument without cradling it. Try playing some F DaMilano's  
 Fantasies with
 this hand position.  It may not be impossible but playing them well  
 and
 executing the voicing cleanly is.  This technique makes you stumble  
 through
 passages where there are a lot of shifts up and down the neck, even  
 if it is
 only one fret.   Three:  It forces the left hand to multitask and  
 as such is
 a probable cause of a lot of physical problems down the road.


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[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Martin Eastwell]

Howard-

I'm not sure that the iconographic evidence can be dismissed so  
lightly. The lute was perhaps the principle solo instrument of this  
period, and both painters and patrons (and even many artists models!)  
would have known what good lute technique looked like. And some  
models were also patrons, who had paid good money to be taught by top  
lute players! It is a problem that the the written lute instructions  
of this period are vague about LH detail. But it is worth noting that  
from later periods, where fuller written details of playing technique  
survive, those details tally remarkably well with the iconographic  
evidence. A good example would be the way in which the RH directions  
given by Thomas Mace, are solidly backed up by the pictures, (and  
resolutely ignored by almost all modern players!).

Best wishes

martin



On 4 May 2006, at 22:03:22, Howard Posner wrote:

 The pictures show that painters' models held lutes that way.  I'm not
 sure what they tell us about actual players.


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[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Martin Eastwell]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:Re: [LUTE] Re: lute straps
Date:   4 May 2006 06:18:55 BDT
To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Dear Katherine

It is quite easy to play a typical six course lute standing up  
without any sort of strap, but one needs to rethink the technique  
used to play such instruments. The pictures show that left hand  
technique in the 16th century was often very like that used by modern  
folk and rock guitarists, with the neck cradled between the base of  
the 1st finger and the thumb, and so supporting the neck without any  
need for a strap. The typical deep parabola shape of the neck on this  
type of instrument makes this quite comfortable. At the other end of  
the instrument, C 16th (and earlier) pictures often show that the  
right arm is actually in line with the centre line of the soundboard.  
So the pressure of the right arm holds the instrument steady, without  
any tendency to roll about. I used to do a solo lute programme in  
which I played the first item (Arthur's Dump) while walking from the  
back of the hall. The piece has several shifts from 1st to 5th  
position and back, which did not cause major problems. Of course,  
this does not work well for later repertory and styles of playing,  
especially pieces with lots of barre chords.

On the subject of gut strings  and the buttons to accommodate them,   
I have an old guitar made in the mid/late 18th cenury by Marchal in  
Paris. There seems little doubt that it was originally a 5 course  
double strung instrument, though it has been crudely altered to 6  
single strings. It has two small, rather flat, ivory buttons, one at  
each end of the back. The shape of the buttons means that they could  
only take a thin piece of string, up to about .70 mm. No sign of the  
piece of original gut, though!

Martin



On 2 May 2006, at 16:08:54, Katherine Davies wrote:


 There are lots of renaissance pictures of people
 playing lutes while standing up without any sign of a
 strap. Does anyone do this? Any ideas on how - or if -
 it could be done?

 I'm not having a go at strap-users; I'm just a bit
 puzzled - I have enough trouble keeping the thing in
 place when I'm sitting down.

 thanks,
 Katherine Davies



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