[LUTE] Re: The golden rose
Dear David, You are probably right - forget the papal rose line. Though perhaps the rose reference is some personal link known to those around G at the time. But perhaps a gilded rose is likely - I'm just cautious about proceeding from speculation to certainty It does sound, tho', as if the thing had been nicked! regards Martyn Perhaps Martyn was not at all far from the spot. There was a papal golden rose in Ennemond Gaultiers immediate environment. His employers daughter, Henrietta Maria, received a papal golden rose in 1625. She had been Madame Royale as of 1622 (later creating what today is known as the role of Princess Royal in the UK). She was trained, along with her sisters, in riding, dancing, and singing, and took part in French court plays (Wiki), that way most certainly being in the environment of Ennemond Gaultier (or him being in hers, rather) who was employed by her mother, queen Maria de Medici. In 1625, she left her mother and France for her marriage with Charles I. of England. The loss of the golden rose may well be imagined as the mothers loss of her daughter, bearing that rose. That would well match the character of the related allemande grave in F minor by Ennemond Gaultier (Burwell lute tutor, ch. xv). And while were at it, why would a gilded lute rose not allude to that lost Golden Rose? Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The golden rose
It's almost 12 months since I sent this mail- is this a record delay on Wayne's list! Martyn __ From: Mathias RAP:sel mathias.roe...@t-online.de To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 4 May 2014, 13:27 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose Dear David, You are probably right - forget the papal rose line. Though perhaps the rose reference is some personal link known to those around G at the time. But perhaps a gilded rose is likely - I'm just cautious about proceeding from speculation to certainty It does sound, tho', as if the thing had been nicked! regards Martyn Perhaps Martyn was not at all far from the spot. There was a papal golden rose in Ennemond Gaultier's immediate environment. His employer's daughter, Henrietta Maria, received a papal golden rose in 1625. She had been Madame Royale as of 1622 (later creating what today is known as the role of Princess Royal in the UK). She was trained, along with her sisters, in riding, dancing, and singing, and took part in French court plays (Wiki), that way most certainly being in the environment of Ennemond Gaultier (or him being in hers, rather) who was employed by her mother, queen Maria de' Medici. In 1625, she left her mother and France for her marriage with Charles I. of England. The loss of the golden rose may well be imagined as the mother's loss of her daughter, bearing that rose. That would well match the character of the related allemande grave in F minor by Ennemond Gaultier (Burwell lute tutor, ch. xv). And while we're at it, why would a gilded lute rose not allude to that lost Golden Rose? Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The golden rose
I got my copy of this message June 22, 2013! Wayne Begin forwarded message: From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose Date: May 4, 2014 at 8:35:52 AM EDT To: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de, Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Reply-To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk It's almost 12 months since I sent this mail- is this a record delay on Wayne's list! Martyn __ From: Mathias RAP:sel mathias.roe...@t-online.de To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 4 May 2014, 13:27 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose Dear David, You are probably right - forget the papal rose line. Though perhaps the rose reference is some personal link known to those around G at the time. But perhaps a gilded rose is likely - I'm just cautious about proceeding from speculation to certainty It does sound, tho', as if the thing had been nicked! regards Martyn Perhaps Martyn was not at all far from the spot. There was a papal golden rose in Ennemond Gaultier's immediate environment. His employer's daughter, Henrietta Maria, received a papal golden rose in 1625. She had been Madame Royale as of 1622 (later creating what today is known as the role of Princess Royal in the UK). She was trained, along with her sisters, in riding, dancing, and singing, and took part in French court plays (Wiki), that way most certainly being in the environment of Ennemond Gaultier (or him being in hers, rather) who was employed by her mother, queen Maria de' Medici. In 1625, she left her mother and France for her marriage with Charles I. of England. The loss of the golden rose may well be imagined as the mother's loss of her daughter, bearing that rose. That would well match the character of the related allemande grave in F minor by Ennemond Gaultier (Burwell lute tutor, ch. xv). And while we're at it, why would a gilded lute rose not allude to that lost Golden Rose? Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The golden rose
Wayne, Martyn, Whenever a new topic of lute life turns up within my limited scope, I like to trawl the archives of our collected wisdom. As everybody in this list will know, there is quite a bit of valuable information to be found in past threads. Recently, I've gilded one of my own roses. So I went through the archives the other day and stumbled upon this thread: http://www.mail-archive.com/lute%40cs.dartmouth.edu/msg42430.html (started by Luca Manassero on June 20th 2013), and it was exciting enough to me. In another forum, one well known prof lutenists seemed not even to know about gilded roses, so I decided to dig a bit. Since I'm no professional musician or musicologist, I don't much care about the date of discussions and find nothing bad in resuming older threads. The crucial point to me was that what I found (papal golden rose to Henrietta Maria) hadn't been mentioned in the archives before (I cross-checked). What I suggest to assume is that the headline Loss of the Golden Rose bears on Henrietta Maria's departure to England in 1625. Sorry for confusion, Martyn. I sent the mail today, not last year, as Wayne said already. Mathias -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of wayne cripps Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 5:37 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose I got my copy of this message June 22, 2013! Wayne Begin forwarded message: From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose Date: May 4, 2014 at 8:35:52 AM EDT To: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de, Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Reply-To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk It's almost 12 months since I sent this mail- is this a record delay on Wayne's list! Martyn __ From: Mathias RAP:sel mathias.roe...@t-online.de To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 4 May 2014, 13:27 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose Dear David, You are probably right - forget the papal rose line. Though perhaps the rose reference is some personal link known to those around G at the time. But perhaps a gilded rose is likely - I'm just cautious about proceeding from speculation to certainty It does sound, tho', as if the thing had been nicked! regards Martyn Perhaps Martyn was not at all far from the spot. There was a papal golden rose in Ennemond Gaultier's immediate environment. His employer's daughter, Henrietta Maria, received a papal golden rose in 1625. She had been Madame Royale as of 1622 (later creating what today is known as the role of Princess Royal in the UK). She was trained, along with her sisters, in riding, dancing, and singing, and took part in French court plays (Wiki), that way most certainly being in the environment of Ennemond Gaultier (or him being in hers, rather) who was employed by her mother, queen Maria de' Medici. In 1625, she left her mother and France for her marriage with Charles I. of England. The loss of the golden rose may well be imagined as the mother's loss of her daughter, bearing that rose. That would well match the character of the related allemande grave in F minor by Ennemond Gaultier (Burwell lute tutor, ch. xv). And while we're at it, why would a gilded lute rose not allude to that lost Golden Rose? Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: The golden rose
I know this one is a few months old - but personally I love gold gilded roses. I plan have a gold gilded rose on my current build. I have seen a painting containing a lute with a gold gilded somewhere, I just can't remember where or when. I have also seen a modern maker do it once too and have read references to them, again can't recall exactly when or where. To sum up, I've not doubt it was a genuine practise at some point in time. On 20 June 2013 15:45, Bernhard Fischer [1]fischer...@aon.at wrote: Dear Luca, I have no knowledge of a lute with a golden rose, BUT I have knowledge of two lutes with heraldic double-head eagle in the rose. Any interest in this? Bernhard -Urspruengliche Nachricht- Von: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Luca Manassero Gesendet: Donnerstag, 20. Juni 2013 16:12 An: [4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] The golden rose Dear list, a few years ago I saw pictures of a lute built by a well known british lutemaker and showing a really beautiful golden rose. Baroque lutenists certainly know about the Allemande of Ennemond Gaultier (Vieux Gaultier) La roze d'or also known as The loss of the golden rose lute. My question is: have you any news (or iconographc evidence) of (original) lutes with a golden rose? Thank you in advance, Luca To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:fischer...@aon.at 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: The golden rose
[1]Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android __ From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk; To: James Jackson weirdgeor...@googlemail.com; Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: The golden rose Sent: Fri, Nov 1, 2013 3:39:23 PM Hi James, Not certain about historical practices, though I do know that the Wolf 12c in Fuessen has a gilded rose. For modern makers, Tony Rooley's renaissance lute (7? 8? course) has a golden rose. I think it may have been made by Michael Lowe but am not certain. Bill From: James Jackson weirdgeor...@googlemail.com To: Bernhard Fischer fischer...@aon.at Cc: Luca Manassero l...@manassero.net; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 1 November 2013, 15:34 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: The golden rose I know this one is a few months old - but personally I love gold gilded roses. I plan have a gold gilded rose on my current build. I have seen a painting containing a lute with a gold gilded somewhere, I just can't remember where or when. I have also seen a modern maker do it once too and have read references to them, again can't recall exactly when or where. To sum up, I've not doubt it was a genuine practise at some point in time. On 20 June 2013 15:45, Bernhard Fischer [1][2]fischer...@aon.at wrote: Dear Luca, I have no knowledge of a lute with a golden rose, BUT I have knowledge of two lutes with heraldic double-head eagle in the rose. Any interest in this? Bernhard -Urspruengliche Nachricht- Von: [2][3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3][4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Luca Manassero Gesendet: Donnerstag, 20. Juni 2013 16:12 An: [4][5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] The golden rose Dear list, a few years ago I saw pictures of a lute built by a well known british lutemaker and showing a really beautiful golden rose. Baroque lutenists certainly know about the Allemande of Ennemond Gaultier (Vieux Gaultier) La roze d'or also known as The loss of the golden rose lute. My question is: have you any news (or iconographc evidence) of (original) lutes with a golden rose? Thank you in advance, Luca To get on or off this list see list information at [5][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[7]fischer...@aon.at 2. mailto:[8]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:[9]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:[10]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android 2. javascript:return 3. javascript:return 4. javascript:return 5. javascript:return 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. javascript:return 8. javascript:return 9. javascript:return 10. javascript:return 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The golden rose
I suppose, Leonard, if any effect, it would be more like loading, so possibly more damping than brightening. Although, it would probably be too thin to make an audible difference. Just my intuition. Regards Anthony Sent from my iPhone On 23 juin 2013, at 01:13, Leonard Williams arc...@verizon.net wrote: How would a gilded rose affect the sound of the instrument? Though the gilding would surely be thin, wouldn't that extra mass affect harmonic responses, the way a wire affects a string in gimped gut? Leonard On 6/22/13 7:27 AM, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear David, You are probably right - forget the papal rose line. Though perhaps the rose reference is some personal link known to those around G at the time. But perhaps a gilded rose is likely - I'm just cautious about proceeding from speculation to certainty It does sound, tho', as if the thing had been nicked! regards Martyn __ From: David Van Edwards da...@vanedwards.co.uk To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Saturday, 22 June 2013, 10:30 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose Dear Martyn, Thank you very much for the reference, it would have taken me ages to find starting from the beginning!! But apropos your ideas of The Golden Rose Lute referring to the Papal golden rose there are these words following the Gaultier piece quoted: The first part of the lesson representeth the enquiry after the lute, and kind promises for those that shall give any notice of it; the second part representeth first the trouble and hurly-burly of the seeking after the lute; and the conclusion is a complaint of the loss of the lute that can not be found. Which does sound to me rather specific to an instrument. Of course it could be symbolic in some obscure way but the references to the papal golden rose you sent do not contain any idea of loss, rather the reverse, since the rose itself seems to refer to the resurrection and the blessings that follow. Any loss of those would rather undermine the whole edifice of Christianity! Best wishes, David Dear David, The piece appears in Chapter XV (f.69-87) of the MS 'Concerning the art of setting Lessons uppon the Lute'. I'm not sure if you'll find anything to elaborate on what precisely was meant by the 'golden rose' lute (ie an actual gilded rose or possibly some other association), since it says nothing about the 'Golden Rose Lute' itself but merely precedes the relevant piece with the words: 'The loss of the golden rose lute; a lesson of Old Gaultier upon the goat's tuning' Incidentally, you may find Dart's modern transcription (which is accurate as far as I can see) easier to read; it appeared in the 1958 Galpin Soc journal. regards Martyn __ From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 21 June 2013, 16:37 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose - Forwarded Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: David Van Edwards [2]da...@vanedwards.co.uk Cc: 'LuteNet list' [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 21 June 2013, 8:16 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose Dear David, I was under the, perhaps wholly mistaken, impression that 'The loss of the golden rose lute' found in the Burwell MS was some other association rather then the actual gilding of the lute rose. For example it could be linked to the papal rose of the name, see [1][4]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06629a.htm or [2][5]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rose Or maybe other associations from antiquity. Just a thought... regards Martyn __ From: David Van Edwards [6]da...@vanedwards.co.uk To: Luca Manassero [7]l...@manassero.net Cc: 'LuteNet list' [8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, 20 June 2013, 20:13 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose Dear Luca, Yes there are 8 surviving lutes that I know of with gilded roses. 1. The 16th century lute by Wolfgang Wolf currently in Fuessen Museum has a gilded rose. Impossible to say if it is original as it has certainly been roughly gilded since then. 2.Lute by Jakob Langenwalder [Fuessen 1627] in Kremsmuenster, Benediktinerstift 3.Lute by Georg Greiff [Fuessen 1590] in Darmstadt, Hessisches Landesmuseum Kg 67: 103 (Orig M.I. 29) 4
[LUTE] Re: The golden rose
I think with a thickness of 1/9000 mm of the gold foil there is not much mass added when the rose is gilded.. Am 23.06.2013 01:13, schrieb Leonard Williams: How would a gilded rose affect the sound of the instrument? Though the gilding would surely be thin, wouldn't that extra mass affect harmonic responses, the way a wire affects a string in gimped gut? Leonard On 6/22/13 7:27 AM, Martyn Hodgsonhodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear David, You are probably right - forget the papal rose line. Though perhaps the rose reference is some personal link known to those around G at the time. But perhaps a gilded rose is likely - I'm just cautious about proceeding from speculation to certainty It does sound, tho', as if the thing had been nicked! regards Martyn __ From: David Van Edwardsda...@vanedwards.co.uk To: Martyn Hodgsonhodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Saturday, 22 June 2013, 10:30 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose Dear Martyn, Thank you very much for the reference, it would have taken me ages to find starting from the beginning!! But apropos your ideas of The Golden Rose Lute referring to the Papal golden rose there are these words following the Gaultier piece quoted: The first part of the lesson representeth the enquiry after the lute, and kind promises for those that shall give any notice of it; the second part representeth first the trouble and hurly-burly of the seeking after the lute; and the conclusion is a complaint of the loss of the lute that can not be found. Which does sound to me rather specific to an instrument. Of course it could be symbolic in some obscure way but the references to the papal golden rose you sent do not contain any idea of loss, rather the reverse, since the rose itself seems to refer to the resurrection and the blessings that follow. Any loss of those would rather undermine the whole edifice of Christianity! Best wishes, David Dear David, The piece appears in Chapter XV (f.69-87) of the MS 'Concerning the art of setting Lessons uppon the Lute'. I'm not sure if you'll find anything to elaborate on what precisely was meant by the 'golden rose' lute (ie an actual gilded rose or possibly some other association), since it says nothing about the 'Golden Rose Lute' itself but merely precedes the relevant piece with the words: 'The loss of the golden rose lute; a lesson of Old Gaultier upon the goat's tuning' Incidentally, you may find Dart's modern transcription (which is accurate as far as I can see) easier to read; it appeared in the 1958 Galpin Soc journal. regards Martyn __ From: Martyn Hodgsonhodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute Dmthlute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 21 June 2013, 16:37 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose - Forwarded Message - From: Martyn Hodgson[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: David Van Edwards[2]da...@vanedwards.co.uk Cc: 'LuteNet list'[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 21 June 2013, 8:16 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose Dear David, I was under the, perhaps wholly mistaken, impression that 'The loss of the golden rose lute' found in the Burwell MS was some other association rather then the actual gilding of the lute rose. For example it could be linked to the papal rose of the name, see [1][4]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06629a.htm or [2][5]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rose Or maybe other associations from antiquity. Just a thought... regards Martyn __ From: David Van Edwards[6]da...@vanedwards.co.uk To: Luca Manassero[7]l...@manassero.net Cc: 'LuteNet list'[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, 20 June 2013, 20:13 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose Dear Luca, Yes there are 8 surviving lutes that I know of with gilded roses. 1. The 16th century lute by Wolfgang Wolf currently in Fuessen Museum has a gilded rose. Impossible to say if it is original as it has certainly been roughly gilded since then. 2.Lute by Jakob Langenwalder [Fuessen 1627] in Kremsmuenster, Benediktinerstift 3.Lute by Georg Greiff [Fuessen 1590] in Darmstadt, Hessisches Landesmuseum Kg 67: 103
[LUTE] Re: The golden rose
On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 09:17:31 +0200, Anthony Hind wrote I suppose, Leonard, if any effect, it would be more like loading, so possibly more damping than brightening. Although, it would probably be too thin to make an audible difference. Just my intuition. Regards Anthony While the mass of the gold is neglectable, depending on the gilding technique used, the application of a mixture of hide glue, plaster and chalk used in traditional gilding might stiffen the rose. But that depends on whether the roses where polished or not. Cheers, Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The golden rose
Golden rose is likely a simple metaphor meaning, the lute with the perfect sound. Today we (in America at least) refer to a radio announcer with a deep, resonant voice as having a golden throat. Obviously we don't mean it literally. Similar metaphors exist in olden time. St. John Chrysostom, famed for his preaching, literally means John Golden Mouth. (A thread will now open on this list that will endeavor to speculate on the beneficial effects that gilding has on the physiology of the mouth and larynx, providing supporting evidence that we do, in fact, mean it literally.) Although we are continually hoping to find it, the search for the Platonic Ideal of Lutes is ultimately futile, therefore lost before it has begun. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Eastman School of Music Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com __ From: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de To: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com; Leonard Williams arc...@verizon.net Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 4:52 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 09:17:31 +0200, Anthony Hind wrote I suppose, Leonard, if any effect, it would be more like loading, so possibly more damping than brightening. Although, it would probably be too thin to make an audible difference. Just my intuition. Regards Anthony While the mass of the gold is neglectable, depending on the gilding technique used, the application of a mixture of hide glue, plaster and chalk used in traditional gilding might stiffen the rose. But that depends on whether the roses where polished or not. Cheers, Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The golden rose
Footballer David Beckham is also known as 'golden balls'. I won't speculate on whether is literally true or not. Mind you, judging by his highish voice, there may be an element of 'loss' involved here too . . . Bill From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com To: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de; Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com; Leonard Williams arc...@verizon.net Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 23 June 2013, 13:57 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose Golden rose is likely a simple metaphor meaning, the lute with the perfect sound. Today we (in America at least) refer to a radio announcer with a deep, resonant voice as having a golden throat. Obviously we don't mean it literally. Similar metaphors exist in olden time. St. John Chrysostom, famed for his preaching, literally means John Golden Mouth. (A thread will now open on this list that will endeavor to speculate on the beneficial effects that gilding has on the physiology of the mouth and larynx, providing supporting evidence that we do, in fact, mean it literally.) Although we are continually hoping to find it, the search for the Platonic Ideal of Lutes is ultimately futile, therefore lost before it has begun. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Eastman School of Music Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com __ From: R. Mattes [1]r...@mh-freiburg.de To: Anthony Hind [2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com; Leonard Williams [3]arc...@verizon.net Cc: Lute List [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 4:52 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 09:17:31 +0200, Anthony Hind wrote I suppose, Leonard, if any effect, it would be more like loading, so possibly more damping than brightening. Although, it would probably be too thin to make an audible difference. Just my intuition. Regards Anthony While the mass of the gold is neglectable, depending on the gilding technique used, the application of a mixture of hide glue, plaster and chalk used in traditional gilding might stiffen the rose. But that depends on whether the roses where polished or not. Cheers, Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at [1][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:r...@mh-freiburg.de 2. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com 3. mailto:arc...@verizon.net 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The golden rose
Dear David, The piece appears in Chapter XV (f.69-87) of the MS 'Concerning the art of setting Lessons uppon the Lute'. I'm not sure if you'll find anything to elaborate on what precisely was meant by the 'golden rose' lute (ie an actual gilded rose or possibly some other association), since it says nothing about the 'Golden Rose Lute' itself but merely precedes the relevant piece with the words: 'The loss of the golden rose lute; a lesson of Old Gaultier upon the goat's tuning' Incidentally, you may find Dart's modern transcription (which is accurate as far as I can see) easier to read; it appeared in the 1958 Galpin Soc journal. regards Martyn __ From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 21 June 2013, 16:37 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose - Forwarded Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: David Van Edwards [2]da...@vanedwards.co.uk Cc: 'LuteNet list' [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 21 June 2013, 8:16 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose Dear David, I was under the, perhaps wholly mistaken, impression that 'The loss of the golden rose lute' found in the Burwell MS was some other association rather then the actual gilding of the lute rose. For example it could be linked to the papal rose of the name, see [1][4]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06629a.htm or [2][5]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rose Or maybe other associations from antiquity. Just a thought... regards Martyn __ From: David Van Edwards [6]da...@vanedwards.co.uk To: Luca Manassero [7]l...@manassero.net Cc: 'LuteNet list' [8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, 20 June 2013, 20:13 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose Dear Luca, Yes there are 8 surviving lutes that I know of with gilded roses. 1. The 16th century lute by Wolfgang Wolf currently in Fuessen Museum has a gilded rose. Impossible to say if it is original as it has certainly been roughly gilded since then. 2.Lute by Jakob Langenwalder [Fuessen 1627] in Kremsmuenster, Benediktinerstift 3.Lute by Georg Greiff [Fuessen 1590] in Darmstadt, Hessisches Landesmuseum Kg 67: 103 (Orig M.I. 29) 4. Miniature lute by Magno Dieffobruchar, Venice, c.1600 in Paris, Musee de Cluny 2092 5. Lute by Stefan Pradter, Prague 1675 in Innsbruck, Schloss Ambras, 622 6. Lute by Basilio Smit, Milan, in Fuessen, Museum der Stadt Fuessen, 4308 has a gilded rim to its triple rose. 7. Lute by Magnus Hellmer 1609 Fuessen, in Darmstadt, Hessisches Landesmuseum, Kg 67:104 8. Anonymous lute in Bologna, Museo Civico Medievale, 1814 Best wishes, David At 16:11 +0200 20/6/13, Luca Manassero wrote: Dear list, a few years ago I saw pictures of a lute built by a well known british lutemaker and showing a really beautiful golden rose. Baroque lutenists certainly know about the Allemande of Ennemond Gaultier (Vieux Gaultier) La roze d'or also known as The loss of the golden rose lute. My question is: have you any news (or iconographc evidence) of (original) lutes with a golden rose? Thank you in advance, Luca To get on or off this list see list information at [3][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: [4][10]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk -- References 1. [11]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06629a.htm 2. [12]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rose 3. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. [14]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/ -- References 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. mailto:da...@vanedwards.co.uk 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06629a.htm 5. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rose 6. mailto:da...@vanedwards.co.uk 7. mailto:l...@manassero.net 8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 10. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/ 11. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06629a.htm 12. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rose 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 14. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/
[LUTE] Re: The golden rose
Dear David, You are probably right - forget the papal rose line. Though perhaps the rose reference is some personal link known to those around G at the time. But perhaps a gilded rose is likely - I'm just cautious about proceeding from speculation to certainty It does sound, tho', as if the thing had been nicked! regards Martyn __ From: David Van Edwards da...@vanedwards.co.uk To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Saturday, 22 June 2013, 10:30 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose Dear Martyn, Thank you very much for the reference, it would have taken me ages to find starting from the beginning!! But apropos your ideas of The Golden Rose Lute referring to the Papal golden rose there are these words following the Gaultier piece quoted: The first part of the lesson representeth the enquiry after the lute, and kind promises for those that shall give any notice of it; the second part representeth first the trouble and hurly-burly of the seeking after the lute; and the conclusion is a complaint of the loss of the lute that can not be found. Which does sound to me rather specific to an instrument. Of course it could be symbolic in some obscure way but the references to the papal golden rose you sent do not contain any idea of loss, rather the reverse, since the rose itself seems to refer to the resurrection and the blessings that follow. Any loss of those would rather undermine the whole edifice of Christianity! Best wishes, David Dear David, The piece appears in Chapter XV (f.69-87) of the MS 'Concerning the art of setting Lessons uppon the Lute'. I'm not sure if you'll find anything to elaborate on what precisely was meant by the 'golden rose' lute (ie an actual gilded rose or possibly some other association), since it says nothing about the 'Golden Rose Lute' itself but merely precedes the relevant piece with the words: 'The loss of the golden rose lute; a lesson of Old Gaultier upon the goat's tuning' Incidentally, you may find Dart's modern transcription (which is accurate as far as I can see) easier to read; it appeared in the 1958 Galpin Soc journal. regards Martyn __ From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 21 June 2013, 16:37 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose - Forwarded Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: David Van Edwards [2]da...@vanedwards.co.uk Cc: 'LuteNet list' [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 21 June 2013, 8:16 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose Dear David, I was under the, perhaps wholly mistaken, impression that 'The loss of the golden rose lute' found in the Burwell MS was some other association rather then the actual gilding of the lute rose. For example it could be linked to the papal rose of the name, see [1][4]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06629a.htm or [2][5]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rose Or maybe other associations from antiquity. Just a thought... regards Martyn __ From: David Van Edwards [6]da...@vanedwards.co.uk To: Luca Manassero [7]l...@manassero.net Cc: 'LuteNet list' [8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, 20 June 2013, 20:13 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose Dear Luca, Yes there are 8 surviving lutes that I know of with gilded roses. 1. The 16th century lute by Wolfgang Wolf currently in Fuessen Museum has a gilded rose. Impossible to say if it is original as it has certainly been roughly gilded since then. 2.Lute by Jakob Langenwalder [Fuessen 1627] in Kremsmuenster, Benediktinerstift 3.Lute by Georg Greiff [Fuessen 1590] in Darmstadt, Hessisches Landesmuseum Kg 67: 103 (Orig M.I. 29) 4. Miniature lute by Magno Dieffobruchar, Venice, c.1600 in Paris, Musee de Cluny 2092 5. Lute by Stefan Pradter, Prague 1675 in Innsbruck, Schloss Ambras, 622 6. Lute by Basilio Smit, Milan, in Fuessen, Museum der Stadt Fuessen, 4308 has a gilded rim to its triple rose. 7. Lute by Magnus Hellmer 1609 Fuessen, in Darmstadt, Hessisches Landesmuseum, Kg 67:104 8. Anonymous lute in Bologna, Museo Civico Medievale, 1814
[LUTE] Re: The golden rose
This allegorical/symbolic dimension of a Golden Rose Lute as a non-physical spiritual goal is treading enigmatically close to Kakuan's Ten Bulls, a Zen classic by the 12th century Chan Master, Kakuan. It is a series of 10 engravings with text; (based on extending an earlier Taoist work) documenting the search for the Bull, a symbol representing the principle of life, truth in action, or just one's essential nature. In this series the Bull is laboriously sought finally found- but instead of then being lost, it is transcended. Then self and enlightenment are also transcended. (Meanwhile, I'll keep an eye out for that lute.) Dan From: David Van Edwards da...@vanedwards.co.uk To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Saturday, 22 June 2013, 10:30 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose Dear Martyn, Thank you very much for the reference, it would have taken me ages to find starting from the beginning!! But apropos your ideas of The Golden Rose Lute referring to the Papal golden rose there are these words following the Gaultier piece quoted: The first part of the lesson representeth the enquiry after the lute, and kind promises for those that shall give any notice of it; the second part representeth first the trouble and hurly-burly of the seeking after the lute; and the conclusion is a complaint of the loss of the lute that can not be found. Which does sound to me rather specific to an instrument. Of course it could be symbolic in some obscure way but the references to the papal golden rose you sent do not contain any idea of loss, rather the reverse, since the rose itself seems to refer to the resurrection and the blessings that follow. Any loss of those would rather undermine the whole edifice of Christianity! Best wishes, David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The golden rose
How would a gilded rose affect the sound of the instrument? Though the gilding would surely be thin, wouldn't that extra mass affect harmonic responses, the way a wire affects a string in gimped gut? Leonard On 6/22/13 7:27 AM, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear David, You are probably right - forget the papal rose line. Though perhaps the rose reference is some personal link known to those around G at the time. But perhaps a gilded rose is likely - I'm just cautious about proceeding from speculation to certainty It does sound, tho', as if the thing had been nicked! regards Martyn __ From: David Van Edwards da...@vanedwards.co.uk To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Saturday, 22 June 2013, 10:30 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose Dear Martyn, Thank you very much for the reference, it would have taken me ages to find starting from the beginning!! But apropos your ideas of The Golden Rose Lute referring to the Papal golden rose there are these words following the Gaultier piece quoted: The first part of the lesson representeth the enquiry after the lute, and kind promises for those that shall give any notice of it; the second part representeth first the trouble and hurly-burly of the seeking after the lute; and the conclusion is a complaint of the loss of the lute that can not be found. Which does sound to me rather specific to an instrument. Of course it could be symbolic in some obscure way but the references to the papal golden rose you sent do not contain any idea of loss, rather the reverse, since the rose itself seems to refer to the resurrection and the blessings that follow. Any loss of those would rather undermine the whole edifice of Christianity! Best wishes, David Dear David, The piece appears in Chapter XV (f.69-87) of the MS 'Concerning the art of setting Lessons uppon the Lute'. I'm not sure if you'll find anything to elaborate on what precisely was meant by the 'golden rose' lute (ie an actual gilded rose or possibly some other association), since it says nothing about the 'Golden Rose Lute' itself but merely precedes the relevant piece with the words: 'The loss of the golden rose lute; a lesson of Old Gaultier upon the goat's tuning' Incidentally, you may find Dart's modern transcription (which is accurate as far as I can see) easier to read; it appeared in the 1958 Galpin Soc journal. regards Martyn __ From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 21 June 2013, 16:37 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose - Forwarded Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: David Van Edwards [2]da...@vanedwards.co.uk Cc: 'LuteNet list' [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 21 June 2013, 8:16 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose Dear David, I was under the, perhaps wholly mistaken, impression that 'The loss of the golden rose lute' found in the Burwell MS was some other association rather then the actual gilding of the lute rose. For example it could be linked to the papal rose of the name, see [1][4]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06629a.htm or [2][5]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rose Or maybe other associations from antiquity. Just a thought... regards Martyn __ From: David Van Edwards [6]da...@vanedwards.co.uk To: Luca Manassero [7]l...@manassero.net Cc: 'LuteNet list' [8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, 20 June 2013, 20:13 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose Dear Luca, Yes there are 8 surviving lutes that I know of with gilded roses. 1. The 16th century lute by Wolfgang Wolf currently in Fuessen Museum has a gilded rose. Impossible to say if it is original as it has certainly been roughly gilded since then. 2.Lute by Jakob Langenwalder [Fuessen 1627] in Kremsmuenster, Benediktinerstift 3.Lute by Georg Greiff [Fuessen 1590] in Darmstadt, Hessisches Landesmuseum Kg 67: 103 (Orig M.I. 29) 4. Miniature lute by Magno Dieffobruchar, Venice, c.1600 in Paris, Musee de Cluny 2092 5. Lute by Stefan Pradter, Prague 1675 in Innsbruck, Schloss Ambras, 622 6. Lute by Basilio Smit
[LUTE] Re: The golden rose
Dear David and Martin, thank you! Apparently there's a lot to think about... Two months ago in Venice I had the chance to meet an indorador (gilder) who still works using traditional Venitian techniques: his (small and beautiful) shop belongs to his family since at least three generations and is full of fantastic pieces. Wondering whether one of my lutes should get a golden rose :-) Greetings, Luca Martin Hurttig on 20/06/13 22:23 wrote: Dear Luca and David, I have this tow to add: -Burgholtzer/Erdlinger in KHM Wien -Hans Frei 1597 in Bologna greetings martin Am 20.06.2013 21:13, schrieb David Van Edwards: Dear Luca, Yes there are 8 surviving lutes that I know of with gilded roses. 1. The 16th century lute by Wolfgang Wolf currently in Fuessen Museum has a gilded rose. Impossible to say if it is original as it has certainly been roughly gilded since then. 2.Lute by Jakob Langenwalder [Fuessen 1627] in Kremsmuenster, Benediktinerstift 3.Lute by Georg Greiff [Fuessen 1590] in Darmstadt, Hessisches Landesmuseum Kg 67: 103 (Orig M.I. 29) 4. Miniature lute by Magno Dieffobruchar, Venice, c.1600 in Paris, Musee de Cluny 2092 5. Lute by Stefan Pradter, Prague 1675 in Innsbruck, Schloss Ambras, 622 6. Lute by Basilio Smit, Milan, in Fuessen, Museum der Stadt Fuessen, 4308 has a gilded rim to its triple rose. 7. Lute by Magnus Hellmer 1609 Fuessen, in Darmstadt, Hessisches Landesmuseum, Kg 67:104 8. Anonymous lute in Bologna, Museo Civico Medievale, 1814 Best wishes, David At 16:11 +0200 20/6/13, Luca Manassero wrote: Dear list, a few years ago I saw pictures of a lute built by a well known british lutemaker and showing a really beautiful golden rose. Baroque lutenists certainly know about the Allemande of Ennemond Gaultier (Vieux Gaultier) La roze d'or also known as The loss of the golden rose lute. My question is: have you any news (or iconographc evidence) of (original) lutes with a golden rose? Thank you in advance, Luca To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The golden rose
- Forwarded Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: David Van Edwards da...@vanedwards.co.uk Cc: 'LuteNet list' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 21 June 2013, 8:16 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose Dear David, I was under the, perhaps wholly mistaken, impression that 'The loss of the golden rose lute' found in the Burwell MS was some other association rather then the actual gilding of the lute rose. For example it could be linked to the papal rose of the name, see [1]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06629a.htm or [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rose Or maybe other associations from antiquity. Just a thought... regards Martyn __ From: David Van Edwards da...@vanedwards.co.uk To: Luca Manassero l...@manassero.net Cc: 'LuteNet list' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, 20 June 2013, 20:13 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The golden rose Dear Luca, Yes there are 8 surviving lutes that I know of with gilded roses. 1. The 16th century lute by Wolfgang Wolf currently in Fuessen Museum has a gilded rose. Impossible to say if it is original as it has certainly been roughly gilded since then. 2.Lute by Jakob Langenwalder [Fuessen 1627] in Kremsmuenster, Benediktinerstift 3.Lute by Georg Greiff [Fuessen 1590] in Darmstadt, Hessisches Landesmuseum Kg 67: 103 (Orig M.I. 29) 4. Miniature lute by Magno Dieffobruchar, Venice, c.1600 in Paris, Musee de Cluny 2092 5. Lute by Stefan Pradter, Prague 1675 in Innsbruck, Schloss Ambras, 622 6. Lute by Basilio Smit, Milan, in Fuessen, Museum der Stadt Fuessen, 4308 has a gilded rim to its triple rose. 7. Lute by Magnus Hellmer 1609 Fuessen, in Darmstadt, Hessisches Landesmuseum, Kg 67:104 8. Anonymous lute in Bologna, Museo Civico Medievale, 1814 Best wishes, David At 16:11 +0200 20/6/13, Luca Manassero wrote: Dear list, a few years ago I saw pictures of a lute built by a well known british lutemaker and showing a really beautiful golden rose. Baroque lutenists certainly know about the Allemande of Ennemond Gaultier (Vieux Gaultier) La roze d'or also known as The loss of the golden rose lute. My question is: have you any news (or iconographc evidence) of (original) lutes with a golden rose? Thank you in advance, Luca To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: [4]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk -- References 1. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06629a.htm 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rose 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/
[LUTE] Re: The golden rose
I guess kitsch was invented earlier than generally thought RT On 6/21/2013 4:02 AM, Luca Manassero wrote: Dear David and Martin, thank you! Apparently there's a lot to think about... Two months ago in Venice I had the chance to meet an indorador (gilder) who still works using traditional Venitian techniques: his (small and beautiful) shop belongs to his family since at least three generations and is full of fantastic pieces. Wondering whether one of my lutes should get a golden rose :-) Greetings, Luca Martin Hurttig on 20/06/13 22:23 wrote: Dear Luca and David, I have this tow to add: -Burgholtzer/Erdlinger in KHM Wien -Hans Frei 1597 in Bologna greetings martin Am 20.06.2013 21:13, schrieb David Van Edwards: Dear Luca, Yes there are 8 surviving lutes that I know of with gilded roses. 1. The 16th century lute by Wolfgang Wolf currently in Fuessen Museum has a gilded rose. Impossible to say if it is original as it has certainly been roughly gilded since then. 2.Lute by Jakob Langenwalder [Fuessen 1627] in Kremsmuenster, Benediktinerstift 3.Lute by Georg Greiff [Fuessen 1590] in Darmstadt, Hessisches Landesmuseum Kg 67: 103 (Orig M.I. 29) 4. Miniature lute by Magno Dieffobruchar, Venice, c.1600 in Paris, Musee de Cluny 2092 5. Lute by Stefan Pradter, Prague 1675 in Innsbruck, Schloss Ambras, 622 6. Lute by Basilio Smit, Milan, in Fuessen, Museum der Stadt Fuessen, 4308 has a gilded rim to its triple rose. 7. Lute by Magnus Hellmer 1609 Fuessen, in Darmstadt, Hessisches Landesmuseum, Kg 67:104 8. Anonymous lute in Bologna, Museo Civico Medievale, 1814 Best wishes, David At 16:11 +0200 20/6/13, Luca Manassero wrote: Dear list, a few years ago I saw pictures of a lute built by a well known british lutemaker and showing a really beautiful golden rose. Baroque lutenists certainly know about the Allemande of Ennemond Gaultier (Vieux Gaultier) La roze d'or also known as The loss of the golden rose lute. My question is: have you any news (or iconographc evidence) of (original) lutes with a golden rose? Thank you in advance, Luca To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The golden rose
Dear Luca, Yes there are 8 surviving lutes that I know of with gilded roses. 1. The 16th century lute by Wolfgang Wolf currently in Füssen Museum has a gilded rose. Impossible to say if it is original as it has certainly been roughly gilded since then. 2.Lute by Jakob Langenwalder [Füssen 1627] in Kremsmünster, Benediktinerstift 3.Lute by Georg Greiff [Füssen 1590] in Darmstadt, Hessisches Landesmuseum Kg 67: 103 (Orig M.I. 29) 4. Miniature lute by Magno Dieffobruchar, Venice, c.1600 in Paris, Musèe de Cluny 2092 5. Lute by Stefan Pradter, Prague 1675 in Innsbruck, Schloss Ambras, 622 6. Lute by Basilio Smit, Milan, in Füssen, Museum der Stadt Füssen, 4308 has a gilded rim to its triple rose. 7. Lute by Magnus Hellmer 1609 Füssen, in Darmstadt, Hessisches Landesmuseum, Kg 67:104 8. Anonymous lute in Bologna, Museo Civico Medievale, 1814 Best wishes, David At 16:11 +0200 20/6/13, Luca Manassero wrote: Dear list, a few years ago I saw pictures of a lute built by a well known british lutemaker and showing a really beautiful golden rose. Baroque lutenists certainly know about the Allemande of Ennemond Gaultier (Vieux Gaultier) La roze d'or also known as The loss of the golden rose lute. My question is: have you any news (or iconographc evidence) of (original) lutes with a golden rose? Thank you in advance, Luca To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk
[LUTE] Re: The golden rose
Dear Luca and David, I have this tow to add: -Burgholtzer/Erdlinger in KHM Wien -Hans Frei 1597 in Bologna greetings martin Am 20.06.2013 21:13, schrieb David Van Edwards: Dear Luca, Yes there are 8 surviving lutes that I know of with gilded roses. 1. The 16th century lute by Wolfgang Wolf currently in Füssen Museum has a gilded rose. Impossible to say if it is original as it has certainly been roughly gilded since then. 2.Lute by Jakob Langenwalder [Füssen 1627] in Kremsmünster, Benediktinerstift 3.Lute by Georg Greiff [Füssen 1590] in Darmstadt, Hessisches Landesmuseum Kg 67: 103 (Orig M.I. 29) 4. Miniature lute by Magno Dieffobruchar, Venice, c.1600 in Paris, Musèe de Cluny 2092 5. Lute by Stefan Pradter, Prague 1675 in Innsbruck, Schloss Ambras, 622 6. Lute by Basilio Smit, Milan, in Füssen, Museum der Stadt Füssen, 4308 has a gilded rim to its triple rose. 7. Lute by Magnus Hellmer 1609 Füssen, in Darmstadt, Hessisches Landesmuseum, Kg 67:104 8. Anonymous lute in Bologna, Museo Civico Medievale, 1814 Best wishes, David At 16:11 +0200 20/6/13, Luca Manassero wrote: Dear list, a few years ago I saw pictures of a lute built by a well known british lutemaker and showing a really beautiful golden rose. Baroque lutenists certainly know about the Allemande of Ennemond Gaultier (Vieux Gaultier) La roze d'or also known as The loss of the golden rose lute. My question is: have you any news (or iconographc evidence) of (original) lutes with a golden rose? Thank you in advance, Luca To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Martin Hurttig - Luthier www.lautenbau-leipzig.de tel.: 01741389 507
