Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues
On Sat, Mar 03, 2018 at 08:26:17PM +, Scott Kostyshak wrote: > If we do not go forward with the release as discussed in the preceding > paragraph, another question is: should we wait another few days to see > if we are ready to release the Windows binaries so we can announce > everything together, or should we announce without the Windows binaries? I'm still interested in your thoughts on the above. From what I understand, there are still pending MiKTeX bugs for which we are waiting for fixes. Releasing now without the Windows binaries would take some pressure off: We can wait for the MiKTeX bug fixes, produce a new installer, and get some testing of the installer without rushing and without delaying the rest of the 2.3.0 release. On the other hand, of course it is nice to release everything together, and releasing without Windows binaries might cause some confusion to users. What are your thoughts? Has any similar issue come up in the past? Scott signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Am 07.03.2018 um 18:16 schrieb Jean-Marc Lasgouttes: OK, I see now. But wasn't there something equivalent before that? The console is a new concept. Before there exist 2 different programs, one for the settings, one for the package handling. the new console unites them. What makes problems is this big update of the whole packaging system. Moreover, there were some bugs in the new package handling system. For example users having consecutive semicolon ";;" in their PATH environment variable could not use MiKTeX after touching it (by installing a package etc.) However, this update is the biggest since 7 years. Unfortunately it coincides with the LyX release. I think the next days most problems and bugs will be fixed. I understand that distributions are user's choice, but it is a pity that we can be so vulnerable to other people's bug. That is a general problem of LyX. We rely on many third-party programs. If one has a bug, users get errors and blame of course LyX. We cannot say e.g. "sorry that you cannot compile your document anymore because of a bug in ImageMagick". The users' problem is to get his document to compile. If we are guilty or a third-party program, doesn't fix the users' problem. We had problems in the past with Ghostscript, ImageMagick and even Python. Now we have one with MiKTeX. After the installer for 2.3.0 I will provide an installer that uses Python 3.6 instead of 2.7. Since a bug in there can break LyX, I have to be very careful and chose this 2-stage upgrade: first LyX, IM and GS, then keep all third-party progs and only upgrade Python. versions? I see that you often try to update miktex as soon as possible, but is it wise? I tried this. But the oldest available miktex installer from October is exactly the one having the bug that makes now problems. What will work is of course that people reinstall MikTeX using the LyX bundle installer because this installs a MikTeX from February containing the new MiKTeX console. But a reinstallation means people loose their personal settings. With the version 3 of the installer I think we found the best possible solution where people can kep their settings and get a working LyX. I think that explaining people how to install LaTeX themselves is the way to go. My experience (even at the university with students) shows that this is too complex for users. They don't accept to invest an hour just to install a program. In the past there was no other choice and that was why Angus and I developed the Win installer. The Win installer consists of so much code because there are many different cases to respect (has the user admin privileges, is Perl, Python etc., already installed. What settings are there used, What is in the PATH and the local PATH variable, are there other LyX installations that should be kept functional, ...) The example of rupee that you gave later in your message is typically an example of things going wrong. You cannot afford to use your time to fix these issues. MiKTeX doesn't change all the time. The current situation is an exception. Concerning the packages, yes I think it was worth it to invest time. This work is done and don't require much maintenance. Only for every major LyX release I check if the package list is still up to date or if new packages must be added or if some need to be renamed. This can be done within an hour. it is so important, let's tell people to install the full textlive version and forget about any other problem. Yes, this might be an option. The question is if users would accept to download 3 - 4 GB. With the LyX bundle installer the have already to download about 250 MB for the installer and 50 MB for the packages. So all in all about 300 MB. For a fresh installation and proper DSL speed the whole installation can be done in 5 minutes. For the full TeXLive I don't know (might depend in the mirror servers). Why not use a distribution that has it all, to begin with? Then you need the full TeXLive or the full MiKTeX. Both is possible, but see above for the acceptance. What the LyX bundle installer uses is a compromise as consequence of many discussions with users in the past. MiKTeX provides a basic installation. But as it is a basic distribution, it cannot contain special packages. LyX grew and uses more special packages for its new features. Therefore a basic LaTeX distribution cannot contain everything people might want to use in LyX. On the other hand people opted not to be forced to install several GB to get a full distribution. I think, as in most situations, one need to use a compromise. And compromises have disadvantages. Incidentally, this is why the software should not update itself during these sessions. In the past it did not because only the packages could be updated. Unless you either forced an update in the LyX installer or MiKTeX itself, nothing happened because the package handling system stayed
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Am 07.03.2018 um 17:27 schrieb Uwe Stöhr: I must admit that I haven't tested the "never" case for a long time. I tested this now and the installer correctly respects the setting "never". So never means never. You don't get any updates nor packages if you really don't want this. Configuring LyX seems to do nothing because the "never" option prevents MiKTeX to install missing packages and thus to update its build system. However, the "never" settings is for users who know about packages and how they are handled. regards Uwe
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: > I think that explaining people how to install LaTeX themselves is the way > to go. You cannot bear the weight of basically maintaining a LaTeX > distribution on top of the ever changing MikTex. The example of rupee that > you gave later in your message is typically an example of things going > wrong. You cannot afford to use your time to fix these issues. If it is so > important, let's tell people to install the full textlive version and > forget about any other problem. > > To say the same thing differently, one design problem that I see is that > you are starting from Miktex, that tries to keep the TeX installation to a > minimum, and than take great pains to add everything that may be useful on > top of it. Why not use a distribution that has it all, to begin with? I was trying to avoid this thread but this question occured to me many times seeing not just this but also previous discussions when something broke in MikTex. What Uwe is doing is sort of package management for living LaTeX distribution which is demanding task on its own and there is no surprise he is going nuts from all related problems. Although there is possibility to have live updates for TeXlive many linux distributions simply package one fixed version and it does not seem to harm productivity in any way. After year or two they simply bump to new version of the whole monster again. I would go even further to claim that its the reason why things 'just work' after installing LyX on linux and LyX packagers can still spend their sunny days with sun instead of sitting in front of bug tracker system of LaTeX distribution... They simply leave latex ppl time to figure out their problem with newest versions and use stable and older version. Is there some *full* MikTex/TeXlive installation bundle for Windows which is stable? If yes how big is it in terms of MB/GB? Would it significantly increase our current installer-bundle? I also do not propose this as 2.3.0 solution but it seems conceptually wrong that Uwe or whoever is preparing LyX package for Windows should spend weeks figuring out latex distribution issues and delay the release process for this reason. Pavel
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Le 07/03/2018 à 17:27, Uwe Stöhr a écrit : In general: I have no problem in being criticized. But I have a problem that I am talking directly to the MiKTeX developer to find a solution and when I do what he proposes you are telling me that it can be done better. I think you are indeed the one who knows how to tweak the current system to make it work. However, it is good to have an external eye that can question some of the basic decisions made for this installer. I have done my share of clever systems that work magically except when they break down miserably. Now I try to think more in terms of robustness. Miktex documentation explicitly recommends to use the Miktex Console to get updates, and does not set the update mechanism to automatic. The MiKTeX Console (introduced around end of January) is the new update mechanism. Before, there was no MiKTeX Console. Also many new options you see in the MiKTeX docs didn't exist before and can therefore not be used for LyX users having older installations. OK, I see now. But wasn't there something equivalent before that? This is why we should not change a system that works See my last mail in this thread. It is not LyX that breaks something, it is MiKTeX itself. This is where we have to wonder whether we shall rely on a system that is so fragile. I understand that distributions are user's choice, but it is a pity that we can be so vulnerable to other people's bug. We try to be very careful with our stable releases, and then we can have catastrophic results due to always having the latest version of whatever package someone releases. Yes ;-) Also very good to know. If you want to reproduce what I am talking about: - uninstall MiKTeX - install LyX 2.3.0RC1 bundle (Contains old MiKTeX installer from October); deny to update MiKTeX - reconfigure LyX or try to compile a LyX file that uses a package you don't have yet. I am not sure that I will find enough time in front of this particular computer to try that. Today I found one of the problems, which is funny: Some MiKTeX versions use its update program for the update. During the update they try to delete this program (itself) which is of course impossible. As result you get a MiKTeX with still all packages there but latex cannot find them anymore because all links to them were not reset in the new package system. This is alas not funny at all... Can't we rely on old-and-trusty miktex versions? I see that you often try to update miktex as soon as possible, but is it wise? Sure, but then please start your Win laptops and try installing different MiKTeX versions to see the different results LyX users will get. Some won't see any problems, some will get a completely broken MiKTeX. Testing this costs hours - it took a long time before I could the first time reproduce what users reported back on our mailing lists. I have to admit that I will find not the time to do it. I understand how time consuming this testing is, nd I am grateful that you spend time on it. But then we must find a way to reduce this burden on you. What I am proposing is to ask ourselves: "where did we got it wrong?". Well, the OS of choice of elegant people is macOS and you cannot argue that they do not care that thing do not "just work". Yet, they install MacTeX, which come in only one size (3G), maybe the 500M of extras if they are very fussy and they are happy with it. It does not update, but once a year one can install a new one. I won't discuss about OSes. Users made their choice. I focus on Win users. They have 2 options: - they have background knowledge or the time to learn about LaTeX. They can setup TeXLive or MiKTeX as they like since they know what a package is. - they just need a working LyX and are not interested in how things work behind LyX I think that explaining people how to install LaTeX themselves is the way to go. You cannot bear the weight of basically maintaining a LaTeX distribution on top of the ever changing MikTex. The example of rupee that you gave later in your message is typically an example of things going wrong. You cannot afford to use your time to fix these issues. If it is so important, let's tell people to install the full textlive version and forget about any other problem. To say the same thing differently, one design problem that I see is that you are starting from Miktex, that tries to keep the TeX installation to a minimum, and than take great pains to add everything that may be useful on top of it. Why not use a distribution that has it all, to begin with? I understand that is not a solution for the 2.3.0 installer, which I am not qualified to fix. I work in the machine building industry. I have clever colleagues, some with a Ph.D. So they are not children, but they have to focus on their job. For example, recently I was informed on Monday that on Wednesday the operation manual of a new device must be ready. These are
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Am 06.03.2018 um 16:37 schrieb Jean-Marc Lasgouttes: In general: I have no problem in being criticized. But I have a problem that I am talking directly to the MiKTeX developer to find a solution and when I do what he proposes you are telling me that it can be done better. The goal is definitely not that you become quiet, which would mean "This is my last word. Either you accept my solution or you have no windows installer". No, it is was only my last attempt to explain the situation. I have the feeling that I can write pages but are not understood. What if the user set "Install missing packages on the fly: never"? Do you still insist that this user should have to do a double update that was explicitly opted-out? You can of course do this. Then you could assure that your LaTeX system won't be updated. The consequence is that if you have a missing package you cannot install it, because to do this, the package handling will be updated. I cannot state what happens if you set "never" and configuring LyX. The reconfiguration invokes MiKTeX to update internally file links, to recreate font files etc. I'll try this out after LyX 2.3.0 was finally released because I am running out of time right now. I must admit that I haven't tested the "never" case for a long time. What is not clear to me is why we change the default update mechanism. Because of the bug. Again, the installer for LyX 2.3.0 acts different than all installers before because of this. Miktex documentation explicitly recommends to use the Miktex Console to get updates, and does not set the update mechanism to automatic. The MiKTeX Console (introduced around end of January) is the new update mechanism. Before, there was no MiKTeX Console. Also many new options you see in the MiKTeX docs didn't exist before and can therefore not be used for LyX users having older installations. This is why we should not change a system that works See my last mail in this thread. It is not LyX that breaks something, it is MiKTeX itself. I started with Windows 2.0, then 3.0, 3.1, etc. up to windows 10 (OK, I skipped a few). These days I use windows 7 and windows 10 on a daily/weekly basis. Do I qualify? Yes ;-) Also very good to know. If you want to reproduce what I am talking about: - uninstall MiKTeX - install LyX 2.3.0RC1 bundle (Contains old MiKTeX installer from October); deny to update MiKTeX - reconfigure LyX or try to compile a LyX file that uses a package you don't have yet. As currently some MiKTeX packages are incompletely uploaded to the mirror servers, maybe today you won't notice anything because every MiKTeX update/installation action is currently not working. As soon as this is working again (hopefully tomorrow) it might be (not for sure) that you get a broken MiKTeX. Today I found one of the problems, which is funny: Some MiKTeX versions use its update program for the update. During the update they try to delete this program (itself) which is of course impossible. As result you get a MiKTeX with still all packages there but latex cannot find them anymore because all links to them were not reset in the new package system. This particular bug existed only during a certain time period, therefore especially users with an older LyX/MiKTeX installation won't see this. I understand how frustrating the thing can be. But working alone on this is probably the source of many issues. It is never good to have an own niche where only one voice counts. We are a team, and this is where our strength comes from. Sure, but then please start your Win laptops and try installing different MiKTeX versions to see the different results LyX users will get. Some won't see any problems, some will get a completely broken MiKTeX. Testing this costs hours - it took a long time before I could the first time reproduce what users reported back on our mailing lists. Well, the OS of choice of elegant people is macOS and you cannot argue that they do not care that thing do not "just work". Yet, they install MacTeX, which come in only one size (3G), maybe the 500M of extras if they are very fussy and they are happy with it. It does not update, but once a year one can install a new one. I won't discuss about OSes. Users made their choice. I focus on Win users. They have 2 options: - they have background knowledge or the time to learn about LaTeX. They can setup TeXLive or MiKTeX as they like since they know what a package is. - they just need a working LyX and are not interested in how things work behind LyX The latter is the vast majority. Are these people so different to what you describe as windows users? We are not talking about children here. I work in the machine building industry. I have clever colleagues, some with a Ph.D. So they are not children, but they have to focus on their job. For example, recently I was informed on Monday that on Wednesday the operation manual of a new device must
Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues
Le 07/03/2018 à 16:24, Scott Kostyshak a écrit : However, you can use LyX also without LaTeX. The LyX installer provides an option for this. This way you can try around and maybe later install LaTeX. A later installed LaTeX (TeXLive or MiKTeX) can be found by LyX if the path to the latex.exe is in the PATH environment variable. Therefore you must install LaTeX with admin privileges and set the option to modify the PATH (if your LaTeX installer has this). Ah that is good to know. Thanks for the explanation. Note however that using LyX without LaTeX is not really a pleasure. One gets at each use a dialog box on startup plus dialog box for each loaded file complaining that something is wrong. I have to install texlive on my home windows 10 computer just for that (I did not intend yet to actually create documents there, I just wanted to debug display issues). While my use case is not important in itself, I think it would be worthwhile to allow LyX to work nicely as a pure editor. Note that none of that is related to the windows port/installer. The issue is the same with all OSes. JMarc
Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues
On Wed, Mar 07, 2018 at 03:08:19PM +, Uwe Stöhr wrote: > Am 05.03.2018 um 17:58 schrieb Joel Kulesza: > > > At least, the way I read the step, the installer is the component not > > finding the latex.exe executable, not the LyX executable itself > > Just for information: > The LyX installer searches for the latex.exe. If it cannot find it, LyX > cannot find it as well. If it finds it, it applies the path to it for LyX. > So the success in finding the latex.exe depends on if the installer could > find it. > > However, you can use LyX also without LaTeX. The LyX installer provides an > option for this. This way you can try around and maybe later install LaTeX. > A later installed LaTeX (TeXLive or MiKTeX) can be found by LyX if the path > to the latex.exe is in the PATH environment variable. Therefore you must > install LaTeX with admin privileges and set the option to modify the PATH > (if your LaTeX installer has this). Ah that is good to know. Thanks for the explanation. Scott signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
On Wed, Mar 07, 2018 at 03:17:05PM +, Uwe Stöhr wrote: > Am 04.03.2018 um 19:36 schrieb Uwe Stöhr: > > > I would nevertheless wait with the announcement because the MiKTeX > > developer promised to make a release just for us soon. If it will be > > available by Tuesday, I will create a new installer, if not, let's > > release LyX 2.3.0 with the installer version 3 I linked above. > > I am going nuts. MiKTeX released now some fixes to its package handling but > they arrived broken on the package servers. Therefore since today the > solution we found for LyX in combination with MiKTeX doesn't work. I am > sorry to say that I need to wait another day until the packages are fixed on > the servers. > > I cannot remember so many troubles but that is life. > > sorry and regards No problem, thanks for keeping updated on the MiKTeX situation. Scott signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 03:37:44PM +, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: > > Either invest time to try it out on Windows on your own or trust me and > > the MiKTeX developer. I have other things to do on a sunny day than to > > sit at home like a nerd with 3 different PCs to test different > > installations, update states etc. to find a solution. > > I understand how frustrating the thing can be. But working alone on this is > probably the source of many issues. It is never good to have an own niche > where only one voice counts. We are a team, and this is where our strength > comes from. A big +1. Uwe, I'm not sure what you mean by "trust", but I think for the way you used that word, I do not trust any LyX developer, even though every one of them knows more about computers and programming than I do. I always ask questions. I'm sure I have annoyed and taken the time of every one on this list with questions. I also do not trust myself in that sense. That's why I always try to ask the group for feedback, or if other developers disagree with me I try my best to understand their points, even if it takes me a lot of time. It's so important to work as a group and to try to help everyone understand. Thanks for all of your time and explanations on this issue. Scott signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Am 04.03.2018 um 19:36 schrieb Uwe Stöhr: I would nevertheless wait with the announcement because the MiKTeX developer promised to make a release just for us soon. If it will be available by Tuesday, I will create a new installer, if not, let's release LyX 2.3.0 with the installer version 3 I linked above. I am going nuts. MiKTeX released now some fixes to its package handling but they arrived broken on the package servers. Therefore since today the solution we found for LyX in combination with MiKTeX doesn't work. I am sorry to say that I need to wait another day until the packages are fixed on the servers. I cannot remember so many troubles but that is life. sorry and regards Uwe
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 01:44:38PM +, Uwe Stöhr wrote: > Here is my last attempt to explain the situation. Then I will be quiet I hope that we can continue this discussion. Specifically, I think the proposal to give a message and ask the user is reasonable. Thanks for all of your time on this issue. > > The point is that we do not affect people's systems without permission. > > Otherwise, we get reports like > > https://latex.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19=30919 > > which is unacceptable. > > Why are you claiming that the Win installer is to blame here? My point was rather to focus on how Stefan did not even imagine the possibility that LyX could change the LaTeX system. You had asked for qualified Windows users, and it is true that I am not. But he seems qualified to me. By the way, he has written a few books on LaTeX, e.g.: https://www.amazon.com/LaTeX-Beginners-Guide-Stefan-Kottwitz/dp/1847199860 Scott signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues
Am 05.03.2018 um 17:58 schrieb Joel Kulesza: At least, the way I read the step, the installer is the component not finding the latex.exe executable, not the LyX executable itself Just for information: The LyX installer searches for the latex.exe. If it cannot find it, LyX cannot find it as well. If it finds it, it applies the path to it for LyX. So the success in finding the latex.exe depends on if the installer could find it. However, you can use LyX also without LaTeX. The LyX installer provides an option for this. This way you can try around and maybe later install LaTeX. A later installed LaTeX (TeXLive or MiKTeX) can be found by LyX if the path to the latex.exe is in the PATH environment variable. Therefore you must install LaTeX with admin privileges and set the option to modify the PATH (if your LaTeX installer has this). regards Uwe
Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues
On Wed, Mar 07, 2018 at 03:01:42PM +, Uwe Stöhr wrote: > Am 04.03.2018 um 16:50 schrieb Scott Kostyshak: > > >The following statements are specific to Windows users: > > ... > >- After the installation of LyX, the MiKTeX package manager pops up. You > > can just close it. > > This item can be removed. This is now fixed in MiKTeX. Thanks, I removed it. Scott signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues
Am 04.03.2018 um 16:50 schrieb Scott Kostyshak: The following statements are specific to Windows users: ... - After the installation of LyX, the MiKTeX package manager pops up. You can just close it. This item can be removed. This is now fixed in MiKTeX. regards Uwe
Re: Update on 2.3.0 situation and Windows-specific issues
On Mon, Mar 05, 2018 at 04:58:37PM +, Joel Kulesza wrote: > At least, the way I read the step, the installer is the component not > finding the latex.exe executable, not the LyX executable itself > post-install (at which point, one couldn't "just close the installer" > because it would have completed already). Sorry for the late-breaking > suggestion. Makes sense. I made the change in the announce email that will be sent. Scott signature.asc Description: PGP signature
