Re: LyX manuals online?

[Christian Ridderström]

On 11 August 2017 at 00:41, Tommaso Cucinotta <tomm...@lyx.org> wrote:

> On 10/08/2017 22:27, Christian Ridderström wrote:
>
>> Do we have the LyX manuals online, either as PDF or web pages?
>>
>
> I just asked this as well, which I guess provides a partial reply to your
> Q.
>

Yes, apologies for not seeing your post before.
I've responded there instead.

Re: LyX manuals online?

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 10/08/2017 22:27, Christian Ridderström wrote:

Do we have the LyX manuals online, either as PDF or web pages?


I just asked this as well, which I guess provides a partial reply to your Q.

T.
--- Begin Message ---

Hi,

I just noticed these broken links

  http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/Manuals#download
  http://ftp.lyx.de/Documentation/en/Customization.lyx
  http://ftp.lyx.de/Documentation/en/Customization.pdf

guess they're all broken.

There's also a seemingly outdated (from y 2009) merged manual available at:

  http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/Documentation#toc2
  
https://wiki.lyx.org/uploads//LyX/Manuals/1.4.2/merged_manuals/merged_manuals-1.4.2.pdf

However, besides fixing the links, considering the powerful conversion 
capabilities of LyX, I'd propose to keep at least some manuals accessible as 
HTML pages on the web, rather than, or in addition to, .lyx/.pdf downloads.

Thanks,

T.
--- End Message ---

LyX manuals online?

[Christian Ridderström]

Hi,

Do we have the LyX manuals online, either as PDF or web pages?

If not, how come?
/Christian

Re: Font of LyX manuals: Greek and Cyrillic

[Uwe Stöhr]

Am 04.12.2015 um 09:31 schrieb Guenter Milde:


   Setting the fonts to "Default" and the font encoding to OT1 results
   in outline fonts without additional requirements.
   OT1 is deprecated for Latin-using languages but up to the job for the
   occasional Latin character in a Greek document.

   I'll commit this change, if you agree.


Please do so. I won't find enough time to investigate closer to this. 
The main decision has been made and you are an expert in these things 
while I am not.


many thanks and best regards
Uwe

Re: Font of LyX manuals: Greek and Cyrillic

[Guenter Milde]

On 2015-12-04, Uwe Stöhr wrote:
> Am 03.12.2015 um 09:47 schrieb Guenter Milde:

>>> - I cannot view the Greek Intro manual via pdflatex.

>> Greek is problematic because of the Greek script using a non-standard
>> font-encoding with 8-bit TeX.

>> Greek requires more than a minimal install, e.g. support for the LGR font
>> encoding and LGR encoded fonts.

> I have this and I can compile the file in LyX 2.1.4 but the file in 
> 2.2.0git is also not compilable with 2.1.4. Teh reason is this:

> ! Font LGR/phv/m/n/12=grar10 at 12.0pt not loadable: Metric (TFM) file 
> not found.

Yes, this is to be expected.  The PSNFSS fonts (Times, Palatino, Bookman,
Helvetica, ...) cover T1 font-encoding (extended Latin) but no Greek and
Cyrillic. There exist several alternatives or extensions to get matching
fonts for Greek and Cyrillic, but these are pretty non-standard. 

The motive to use Palatino/Helvetica/Courier in the basic manuals is to
get outline fonts "out of the box" for every complete installation, i.e.
any installation including all packages in http://www.ctan.org/pkg/required

However, these required packages only cover the Latin script. There is no
Greek font at all and no outline font for Cyrillic in this set.

-> We have to come up with our own concept of *minimal requirements* for
basic manuals using non-Latin scripts.

Greek:
  * babel-greek
  * greek-fontenc and greek-inputenc (set up the LGR font encoding)
  * a font in LGR encoding

Cyrillic:
  * babel support for the respective languages (Russian, Ukrainean, ...)
  · setup for T2A font encoding (part of the "required" packages)
  * a font in T2A encoding

Arabic, Hebrew, CJK
  * babel support
  * font setup
  * a font in the respective encodings

For the font selection, there are three competing aims:

  * avoid compilation errors due to missing packages/fonts
  * avoid bitmap fonts
  * use "current best practice" (clean code, recommended settings and
packages)

Problem 1:
  a) Our manuals contain some Latin characters even in languages using
 non-Latin scripts.
  b) LyX's default font encoding is T1 (extended Latin)
  c) Without LModern or CM-Super, this leads to bitmap fonts for CM.


>> I see the following options (in order of preference)

>> a) Use LatinModern.

>> +1 no bitmaps
>> +1 LatinModern is "current best practice".
>> -0 an installation with Greek is non-minimal anyway, so requiring
>>LModern is not requiring much.

> I have done this now. We used Latin Modern before (also in 2.1.4) so 
> actually we don't change anything and the file is compilable with 
> pdflatex, XeTeX and LuaTeX.

However, we used Latin Modern as an option via a condition in the preamble
code. 

Before
   * compiling with pdflatex did not fail if LatinModern was missing
 (using bitmap substitutions instead)
   * compiling wiht Xe/LuaTeX either failed or led to wrong characters in
 the output.
After 
   * compiling with pdflatex fails if LatinModern is missing!
   * compiling wiht Xe/LuaTeX works.


Also, I have to revise my previous assessment regarding requirements:

   -1 As LModern does not support Greek and Cyrillic, chances that
  users with native languages using these scripts do not install
  LModern are actually above average. 

Therefore, I prefer solutions without requiring LModern for Greek and
Cyrillic:


Greek:
  * default CM substitution is CB - an outlined LGR encoded font
  * bitmaps are only used for Latin characters.
  
  Setting the fonts to "Default" and the font encoding to OT1 results
  in outline fonts without additional requirements.
  OT1 is deprecated for Latin-using languages but up to the job for the
  occasional Latin character in a Greek document.
  
  I'll commit this change, if you agree.

..

Cyrillic:
  * default CM substitution is LH - a bitmap font
  * bitmaps are used for Latin and Cyrillic characters.

>> Users with heavy use of the Cyrillic script will quite likely have the
>> CM-Super package installed. This substitutes (almost) all CM-fonts with
>> outlined variants.

> We cannot assume this because the Windows installer doesn't do this for 
> you and MiKTeX doesn't install them by default. So as a new user on 
> Windows you don't cm-super installed since you don't know the 
> problematic. All you see at first is a pixelated output. This needs to 
> be avoided because the first few minutes with a new program are important.
> With CM-Super installed, everything is fine.

Unfortunately, there is no way to avoid bitmapped fonts without
introducing heavy requirements. In my view, non-compiling is worse than
bitmap, so rather than hard-setting any of the available cyrillic fonts I
would document the issue:

   The standard TeX fonts for Cyrillic script are bitmapped. If you want
   good-looking output at any resolution for Cyrillic, install the
   CM-Super package, use one of the Type1 (outlined) TeX fonts, or

Re: Font of LyX manuals

[Guenter Milde]

Dear Uwe,

On 2015-12-03, Uwe Stöhr wrote:
> Am 01.12.2015 um 10:19 schrieb Guenter Milde:

>> Then my suggestion is to set fonts "the LyX way":

>> * Palatino, Helvetica, Courier for splash, Intro, and Tutorial

> Done now but I found 2 problems:

> - I cannot view the Greek Intro manual via pdflatex.

Greek is problematic because of the Greek script using a non-standard
font-encoding with 8-bit TeX.

Greek requires more than a minimal install, e.g. support for the LGR font
encoding and LGR encoded fonts. The standard Greek fonts are Type1 (outline)
CM-lookalikes by Claudio Beccari - used with both, CM and LatinModern.
A "minimal Greek install" might also use the "cmlgc" fonts (smaller size,
because they don't include optical sizes).

I see the following options (in order of preference)

a) Use LatinModern.

   +1 no bitmaps
   +1 LatinModern is "current best practice".
   -0 an installation with Greek is non-minimal anyway, so requiring LModern
  is not requiring much.

b) Use OT1 font encoding for Latin parts (this uses the Type1 version of the
   original CM fonts)

   +1 simple
   +1 no bitmaps
   -1 OT1 is deprecated (but works fine the for the Latin parts of el/Intro).

c) Leave all on default

   +1 simple
   -1 bitmap for Latin characters (like LyX)

d) Optionally use cmlgc via preamble.

   +1 no bitmaps
   +1 small requirement
   +1 no CB-fonts (big install) required
   -3 preamble code overwriting LyX's font setting
  (especially with Greek, users might want to "play" with different fonts)


The patch for b) would be

-\fontencoding global
-\font_roman "palatino" "DejaVu Serif"
-\font_sans "helvet" "DejaVu Sans"
-\font_typewriter "courier" "DejaVu Sans Mono"
+\fontencoding OT1
+\font_roman "default" "DejaVu Serif"
+\font_sans "default" "DejaVu Sans"
+\font_typewriter "default" "DejaVu Sans Mono"


The preamble code for d) would be

+% avoid bitmap fonts if possible (do nothing for non-TeX fonts)
+\@ifpackageloaded{fontspec}{}{
+  \IfFileExists{cmlgc.sty}{\usepackage{cmlgc}}{}
+}
+


> - The font settings for Russian and Ukrainian don't improve the output
> -> the fonts are still bitmap fonts in the PDF

Users with heavy use of the Cyrillic script will quite likely have the
CM-Super package installed. This substitutes (almost) all CM-fonts with
outlined variants.

I see the following options (in order of preference):

a) Optionally use cmlgc via preamble.

   +1 no bitmaps
   +1 small requirement
   +1 no CB-fonts (big install) required
   -3 preamble code overwriting LyX's font setting
  (especially with Greek, users might want to "play" with different fonts)

b) Leave all on default

   +1 simple
   -1 bitmap fonts unless CM-Super is installed.

c) Use LatinModern.

   +0 no bitmaps for Latin characters
   +1 LatinModern is "current best practice".
   ?? Don't know whether CM-Super is set up as Cyrillic replacement also for
  LM

Option a) uses preamble code, but the interference is small: users with
CM-Super will still get outlined fonts. The required install is small and
recommended for Cyrillic anyway.



>> * Latin Modern for the other manuals.

> Done.

Thank you.

> I am not sure about splash.

This is not intended to be typeset, is it?

Still, a new user might try to view the PDF and would be repelled if it
does not work out of the box.

I'd use Palatino, Helvetica, Courier for languages where this works,
LModern for Greek and Default for others.

Günter

Re: Font of LyX manuals

[Uwe Stöhr]

Am 03.12.2015 um 09:47 schrieb Guenter Milde:


- I cannot view the Greek Intro manual via pdflatex.


Greek is problematic because of the Greek script using a non-standard
font-encoding with 8-bit TeX.

Greek requires more than a minimal install, e.g. support for the LGR font
encoding and LGR encoded fonts.


I have this and I can compile the file in LyX 2.1.4 but the file in 
2.2.0git is also not compilable with 2.1.4. Teh reason is this:


! Font LGR/phv/m/n/12=grar10 at 12.0pt not loadable: Metric (TFM) file 
not found.



I see the following options (in order of preference)

a) Use LatinModern.

+1 no bitmaps
+1 LatinModern is "current best practice".
-0 an installation with Greek is non-minimal anyway, so requiring LModern
   is not requiring much.


I have done this now. We used Latin Modern before (also in 2.1.4) so 
actually we don't change anything and the file is compilable with 
pdflatex, XeTeX and LuaTeX.



Users with heavy use of the Cyrillic script will quite likely have the
CM-Super package installed. This substitutes (almost) all CM-fonts with
outlined variants.


We cannot assume this because the Windows installer doesn't do this for 
you and MiKTeX doesn't install them by default. So as a new user on 
Windows you don't cm-super installed since you don't know the 
problematic. All you see at first is a pixelated output. This needs to 
be avoided because the first few minutes with a new program are important.

With CM-Super installed, everything is fine.


I see the following options (in order of preference):

a) Optionally use cmlgc via preamble.

+1 no bitmaps
+1 small requirement
+1 no CB-fonts (big install) required
-3 preamble code overwriting LyX's font setting
   (especially with Greek, users might want to "play" with different fonts)


CM-lgc in for an unknown reason not available vie TeXLive nor MiKTeX's 
package manager. So this is not an option.



b) Leave all on default

+1 simple
-1 bitmap fonts unless CM-Super is installed.


I did this now. Appareantly there is no simple solution than to install 
CM-super.



I am not sure about splash.


This is not intended to be typeset, is it?


Yes, this is just the welcome page of LyX. Of course users might want to 
see it as PDF.



I'd use Palatino, Helvetica, Courier for languages where this works,
LModern for Greek and Default for others.


OK. I'll do this tomorrow or you could do this. This would help me.

many thanks and regards
Uwe

Re: Font of LyX manuals

[Uwe Stöhr]

Am 01.12.2015 um 10:19 schrieb Guenter Milde:


Then my suggestion is to set fonts "the LyX way":

* Palatino, Helvetica, Courier for splash, Intro, and Tutorial


Done now but I found 2 problems:

- I cannot view the Greek Intro manual via pdflatex.
- The font settings for Russian and Ukrainian don't improve the output 
-> the fonts are still bitmap fonts in the PDF



* Latin Modern for the other manuals.


Done.

I am not sure about splash.

regards Uwe

Re: Font of LyX manuals

[Stephan Witt]

Am 30.11.2015 um 00:09 schrieb Uwe Stöhr :

> Am 26.11.2015 um 09:09 schrieb Guenter Milde:
> 
>> No. Many users (including myself) don't use a *complete* TeX distribution
> 
> That makes me wonder. In the world around me everybody uses just click and 
> go. Why do you fiddle around to get a TeX subset when there is TeXLive that 
> you can install with a few clicks? (I have TeXLive as well). Fiddling costs 
> time and that is what people usually don't have.

I understood that the default installation without "fiddling" is the subset of 
TeX.

Stephan

Re: Font of LyX manuals

[Guenter Milde]

On 2015-11-29, Uwe Stöhr wrote:
> Am 26.11.2015 um 09:09 schrieb Guenter Milde:

> In this case I vote for the other solution you proposed:

> b) use a simplified and "Unicode-clean" preamble code:

...

> I vote for this for your argument. We already have preamble code so that 
> it shouldn't matter that we will keep it in a changed form.

However, it would still be better for maintaining (and as example for
good use) to reduce the preamble code if alternatives exist.

...


>>> Since years also the Intro and Tutorial is using Latin Modern. Only
>>> splash does not use it.

>> However, they use it "optionally" via preamble code. And compiling splash
>> takes ages because first the bitmap fonts need to be generated.

> Interesting; here it is very quick.

There may be two reasons:

a) the bitmap fonts are cached, so only the first compilation is slow

b) the CM-Super fonts are installed. Then they are used as substitution for
   CM with 8-bit font encodings (like LyX's default T1).

Both reasons do not hold for a user trying out Ly with a minimal LaTeX
installation.



>> I prefer PSNFSS fonts for simple manuals (splash, Intro, Tutorial).

> OK.

>> Please try, e.g., Palatino, Helvetica, Courier and tell about problems.

> What do you mean? They all work here.

Fine.

Then my suggestion is to set fonts "the LyX way":

* Palatino, Helvetica, Courier for splash, Intro, and Tutorial

* Latin Modern for the other manuals.

  Latin Modern is "Current Best Practice" for CM-like fonts with T1 font
  encoding. 
  
  Since 2.2, the readonly feature can be toggled -- users who do not have
  LatinModern installed can change the font setting in LyX. IMO, this is
  acceptable for manuals that rely on packages outside the set of the
  "minimal requirements" for a LaTeX installation.


+1 No preamble code for font selection.

+1 Basic manuals guaranteed to work out of the box also with minimal LaTeX
   installation.

+1 Consistent result on all TeX installations.


Günter

Re: Font of LyX manuals

[Guenter Milde]

On 2015-11-29, Uwe Stöhr wrote:
> Am 26.11.2015 um 09:09 schrieb Guenter Milde:

>> No. Many users (including myself) don't use a *complete* TeX distribution

> That makes me wonder. In the world around me everybody uses just click
> and go. Why do you fiddle around to get a TeX subset when there is
> TeXLive that you can install with a few clicks? (I have TeXLive as
> well). Fiddling costs time and that is what people usually don't have.

Wit my Debian system, it is easy to select the sub-packages I really need.
This excludes things like language support for languages I don't understand
or special fonts or document classes I don't want to use.

On Debian, installing LyX recommends a "medium" TeXLive subset
(see https://packages.debian.org/jessie/lyx).

This means you can install LyX also without any TeX (but of course this will
not allow you to compile to PDF or Postscript). You can, however also use it
with a minimal LaTeX installation
https://packages.debian.org/sid/texlive-latex-base
This again recommends (but not requires) the package "lmodern" providing
lmodern.sty.


> In this case I vote for the other solution you proposed:

> ---
> b) use a simplified and "Unicode-clean" preamble code:
...
> +% use Latin Modern fonts if available
> +\IfFileExists{lmodern.sty}{
> +  \renewcommand{\rmdefault}{lmr}
> +  \renewcommand{\sfdefault}{lmss}
> +  \renewcommand{\ttdefault}{lmtt}
> +}{}
...
>  -1 requires preamble code


> I vote for this for your argument. We already have preamble code so that
> it shouldn't matter that we will keep it in a changed form.


Fine.

I still believe that it is even better to have less preamble code and make
use of the settings natively supported by LyX.

>> IMO, LM should not be required for the "simple" manuals.

> What is simple? I would load lmodern if available in general, see above.
> if not, the default TeX fonts are used.

>>> Since years also the Intro and Tutorial is using Latin Modern. Only
>>> splash does not use it.

>> However, they use it "optionally" via preamble code. And compiling splash
>> takes ages because first the bitmap fonts need to be generated.

> Interesting; here it is very quick.

There are two possible reasons:

a) bitmap fonts are cached, so this is quick the second time.

b) if installed, the CM-Super font is used as substitute if the request is for
   CM with font encoding T1.

both of this does not apply for a new user with a minimal LaTeX installation.



>> I prefer PSNFSS fonts for simple manuals (splash, Intro, Tutorial).

> OK.

>> Please try, e.g., Palatino, Helvetica, Courier and tell about problems.

> What do you mean? They all work here.

Nice.

So my suggestion is:

* use Palatino, Helvetica, Courier for splash, Intro, and Tutorial.

  This way you get documents that are guaranteed to compile out of the box
  even with a minimal LaTeX installation.

* Other manuals (especially the "heavy" manuals like Math or Additonal)
  may use LatinModern via the lyx font-setting -- LM is the
  widely accepted "best current practice" for CM-like fonts in 8-bit
  encodings.
With 2.2, it is possible to toggle the readonly feature: users without
  lmodern.sty but other required packages installed can easily change the
  settings to an installed font.

+1 no need for font-selecting preamble code,

+1 consistent look on every site.


Günter

Re: Font of LyX manuals

[Uwe Stöhr]

Am 26.11.2015 um 09:09 schrieb Guenter Milde:


No. Many users (including myself) don't use a *complete* TeX distribution


That makes me wonder. In the world around me everybody uses just click 
and go. Why do you fiddle around to get a TeX subset when there is 
TeXLive that you can install with a few clicks? (I have TeXLive as 
well). Fiddling costs time and that is what people usually don't have.


But OK, it is as it is.

In this case I vote for the other solution you proposed:

---
b) use a simplified and "Unicode-clean" preamble code:

   -\usepackage{ifpdf} % part of the hyperref bundle
   -\ifpdf % if pdflatex is used
   -
   - % set fonts for nicer pdf view
   - \IfFileExists{lmodern.sty}{\usepackage{lmodern}}{}
   -
   -\fi % end if pdflatex is used
   +% use Latin Modern fonts if available
   +\IfFileExists{lmodern.sty}{
   +  \renewcommand{\rmdefault}{lmr}
   +  \renewcommand{\sfdefault}{lmss}
   +  \renewcommand{\ttdefault}{lmtt}
   +}{}

We do not load lmodern.sty, because it also sets the fontencoding to T1
which is done by LyX anyway (with 8-bit TeX) and wrong for compiling
with Unicode fonts (non-TeX fonts).

-1 requires preamble code

+1 safe on any TeX installation.
-

I vote for this for your argument. We already have preamble code so that 
it shouldn't matter that we will keep it in a changed form.



IMO, LM should not be required for the "simple" manuals.


What is simple? I would load lmodern if available in general, see above. 
if not the default TeX fonts are used.



Since years also the Intro and Tutorial is using Latin Modern. Only
splash does not use it.


However, they use it "optionally" via preamble code. And compiling splash
takes ages because first the bitmap fonts need to be generated.


Interesting; here it is very quick.


I prefer PSNFSS fonts for simple manuals (splash, Intro, Tutorial).


OK.


Please try, e.g., Palatino, Helvetica, Courier and tell about problems.


What do you mean? They all work here.

regards Uwe

Re: Font of LyX manuals

[Guenter Milde]

On 2015-11-25, Uwe Stöhr wrote:
> Am 25.11.2015 um 09:32 schrieb Guenter Milde:

Dear Uwe,

thanks for the response, I think we are on a good way.

>>> On which system there is no Latin Modern?

>> While they are in every TeX distribution, they are not necessarily in every
>> TeX *installation*.

> Do you know a LyX user wh does not use a TeX distribution? 

> ... We can safely concentrate on the distributions. Since Latin Modern 
> is part of all, we can assume it to be there.

No. Many users (including myself) don't use a *complete* TeX distribution and
many users don't use an automatic download of missing files (including all
TeXLive users, as this is a special MikTeX feature).

In my Debian-packaged TeXLive, Latin Modern is *recommended* but not
*required*. A user installs LyX with minimal requirements will not
have it.

I know this is a rare case but if you want to be sure a font is installed
on every site, you are restricted to the set of "required" fonts: 7-bit
CM and the common PostScript fonts in
http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/required/psnfss


>> If you want to keep Latin Modern for the manuals (at least for the
>> "advanced" ones), we have the alternatives:

>> a) remove the preamble code loading "lmodern.sty" and
>> select Latin Modern in the document settings

>> +1 clean, simple, good practice

>> -1 needs agreement from other developers, as manuals may no longer
>>compile on a minimal installation.

> I vote for this and I would even do this for LyX 2.2.0 if nobody has a 
> good argument against this.

Manuals requiring packages outside the required¹ set can IMO 
use LModern via the GUI setting.

However, for 2.2.0 this would require approvement by our release manager.

¹ http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/required


...


IMO, LM should not be required for the "simple" manuals.

We could use preamble code optionally setting Latin Modern
or use PSNFSS fonts via the GUI.

> Since years also the Intro and Tutorial is using Latin Modern. Only 
> splash does not use it.

However, they use it "optionally" via preamble code. And compiling splash
takes ages because first the bitmap fonts need to be generated.

I prefer PSNFSS fonts for simple manuals (splash, Intro, Tutorial). 

The Development guide says:

  The different files use different formatting styles. That is OK and has
  historic reasons nobody fully know ;-).

so it should be OK if they have also different fonts when printed...

Please try, e.g., Palatino, Helvetica, Courier and tell about problems.


Thanks,

Günter

Re: Font of LyX manuals

[Uwe Stöhr]

Am 25.11.2015 um 09:32 schrieb Guenter Milde:


The test for PDF output in the preamble...
makes no sense in a design for PDF output only. It can safely go.


Fine with me. I remember that I was once forced to add this - years a go 
because I think Latin Modern was not part of teTeX which was that time 
still in use.



On which system there is no Latin Modern?


While they are in every TeX distribution, they are not necessarily in every
TeX *installation*.


Do you know a LyX user wh does not use a TeX distribution? The very few 
people playing with TeX without a distribution are not using LyX - they 
want to do things the "puristic way" and use a TeX editor hacking in TeX 
code. We can safely concentrate on the distributions. Since Latin Modern 
is part of all, we can assume it to be there.



If you want to keep Latin Modern for the manuals (at least for the
"advanced" ones), we have the alternatives:

a) remove the preamble code loading "lmodern.sty" and
select Latin Modern in the document settings

+1 clean, simple, good practice

-1 needs agreement from other developers, as manuals may no longer
   compile on a minimal installation.


I vote for this and I would even do this for LyX 2.2.0 if nobody has a 
good argument against this.



b) use a simplified and "Unicode-clean" preamble code:


Fine with me too, but if we can save preamble code, we should do this.


-\usepackage{ifpdf} % part of the hyperref bun



Latin Modern is now established as the "community recommendation" for
several years. It is also the default non-TeX font (in its OpenType
incarnation). Requiring it should be no problem (at least with "advanced"
manuals like Math or Additional that have many requirements anyway).


I fully agree.


If we want to ensure that "simple" manuals like Intro or Tutorial compile
on *any* installation, we could use b) for manuals that do not have
requirements outside the LaTeX ‘re­quired’ set of packages.


Since years also the Intro and Tutorial is using Latin Modern. Only 
splash does not use it.


thanks and regards
Uwe

Re: Font of LyX manuals

[Guenter Milde]

On 2015-11-25, Uwe Stöhr wrote:
> Am 30.10.2015 um 09:08 schrieb Guenter Milde:

>> LyX manuals currently use user-preamble code to set the font depending on
>> the export route and availability:

>> * Latin Modern (CM-extension) with PDF(luatex), PDF(pdflatex), if
>>   lmodern.sty is installed

> This is the only export the manuals are designed for.

The test for PDF output in the preamble

  \usepackage{ifpdf} % part of the hyperref bundle
  \ifpdf % if pdflatex is used
...
  \fi % end if pdflatex is used

makes no sense in a design for PDF output only. It can safely go.

>> The alternative LatinModern CM-lookalike is not guaranteed to be installed
>> on each system.

> On which system there is no Latin Modern?

While they are in every TeX distribution, they are not necessarily in every
TeX *installation*.

This is the reason why my request to make Latin Modern the default font in
LyX and use it in the manuals was turned down (some five or seven years ago)
and the current preamble code invented for the manuals.

However, any "complete minimal installation" has

  7-bit Computer Modern (OT1 encoded)
  8-bit PSNFSS fonts http://www.ctan.org/pkg/psnfss (T1 encoded)

because these are part of the LaTeX ‘re­quired’ set of packages.
http://www.ctan.org/pkg/required

...


>> * Latin Modern is the community-recommended (but not automatically used)
>>"international" substitution for CM.

>>+ It comes with optical sizes and mixes well with the default math fonts.

>>- It is too light for good on-screen reading.

> I don't agree. Since years I use Latin Modern for all my documents
> including my Ph.D. thesis. My colleagues at the University liked the
> font that even Word users started to use Latin Modern as font.


If you want to keep Latin Modern for the manuals (at least for the
"advanced" ones), we have the alternatives:

a) remove the preamble code loading "lmodern.sty" and
   select Latin Modern in the document settings

   +1 clean, simple, good practice

   -1 needs agreement from other developers, as manuals may no longer
  compile on a minimal installation.

b) use a simplified and "Unicode-clean" preamble code:

   -\usepackage{ifpdf} % part of the hyperref bundle
   -\ifpdf % if pdflatex is used
   -
   - % set fonts for nicer pdf view
   - \IfFileExists{lmodern.sty}{\usepackage{lmodern}}{}
   -
   -\fi % end if pdflatex is used
   +% use Latin Modern fonts if available
   +\IfFileExists{lmodern.sty}{
   +  \renewcommand{\rmdefault}{lmr}
   +  \renewcommand{\sfdefault}{lmss}
   +  \renewcommand{\ttdefault}{lmtt}
   +}{}

We do not load lmodern.sty, because it also sets the fontencoding to T1
which is done by LyX anyway (with 8-bit TeX) and wrong for compiling
with Unicode fonts (non-TeX fonts).

-1 requires preamble code

+1 safe on any TeX installation.


My preference is a). 

Latin Modern is now established as the "community recommendation" for
several years. It is also the default non-TeX font (in its OpenType
incarnation). Requiring it should be no problem (at least with "advanced"
manuals like Math or Additional that have many requirements anyway).

If we want to ensure that "simple" manuals like Intro or Tutorial compile
on *any* installation, we could use b) for manuals that do not have
requirements outside the LaTeX ‘re­quired’ set of packages.


Günter

Re: Font of LyX manuals

[Uwe Stöhr]

Am 30.10.2015 um 09:08 schrieb Guenter Milde:


LyX manuals currently use user-preamble code to set the font depending on
the export route and availability:

* Latin Modern (CM-extension) with PDF(luatex), PDF(pdflatex), if lmodern.sty 
is installed


This is the only export the manuals are designed for. Latin Modern fonts 
are to my knowledge in every basic TeX distribution and can therefore be 
assumed as available.


DVI and PS as output format does not support all the features described 
in the 3 main manual files: Math, EmbeddedObjects and UserGuide
Moreover the design is to get PDF files with full functionality: 
clickable internal links, bookmarks, clickable URL and links to included 
files etc. The PDFs are also designed to print them as booklet if you 
like. (For this feature I therefore even use binding correction.)


(Btw. DVI is evil because at least with MiKTeX the DVI output from our 
docs make the built-in DVI viewer file crashing. The reason seems to be 
rotated text in the documents.)



The alternative LatinModern CM-lookalike is not guaranteed to be installed
on each system.


On which system there is no Latin Modern?


To prevent an additional dependency for compiling the
manuals, the following preamble-selection code was chosen:

   \usepackage{ifpdf} % part of the hyperref bundle
   \ifpdf % if pdflatex or lualatex is used
   \@ifpackageloaded{fontspec}{}{% non-tex-fonts default to LModern
% set fonts for nicer pdf view
\IfFileExists{lmodern.sty}{\usepackage{lmodern}}{}
   }
   \fi % end if pdflatex is used


Looks good.


* Latin Modern is the community-recommended (but not automatically used)
   "international" substitution for CM.

   + It comes with optical sizes and mixes well with the default math fonts.

   - It is too light for good on-screen reading.


I don't agree. Since years I use Latin Modern for all my documents 
including my Ph.D. thesis. My colleagues at the University liked the 
font that even Word users started to use Latin Modern as font.


Btw. Since the manuals are designed for on-screen reading I provides 
them as PDF:

http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/DocumentationDevelopment#download

regards Uwe

Re: Font of LyX manuals

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 08:08:01AM +, Guenter Milde wrote:
> Dear LyX developers,
> 
> 
> State of the art
> ========
> 
> LyX manuals currently use user-preamble code to set the font depending on
> the export route and availability:
> 
> * Latin Modern (CM-extension) with PDF(luatex), PDF(pdflatex), if lmodern.sty 
> is installed
> 
> * CM-Super (another CM lookalike) with all other export routes, if it is 
> installed.
> 
> * EC (bitmapped CM-extension) with all other export routes if CM-Super
> 
> 
> Motivation
> ==
> 
> The idea was, that 
> 
> * we wanted to use the default font (Computer Modern (CM)) with the manuals.
> 
> * we wanted to use LyX default for the font encoding (T1) instead of the TeX
>   default (the 7-bit OT1 font encoding).
>   
>   Using the T1 font encoding is important for non-english languages
>   using the Latin alphabet, otherwise automatic hyphenation fails and the
>   output quality of non-ASCII letters is bad.
>   
> However, the default font CM does not exist in T1 encoding and TeX
> automatically selects a substitution - either CM-Super or EC which both have
> problems:
> 
> * CM-Super: large (40MB), said to be of inferior quality to LatinModern
> 
> * EC: Bitmapped fonts take long with first compilation (must be generated
>   from MetaFont sources in required resolution), have a fixed resolution and
>   look bad in old Acrobat readers.
>   
> The alternative LatinModern CM-lookalike is not guaranteed to be installed
> on each system. To prevent an additional dependency for compiling the
> manuals, the following preamble-selection code was chosen:
> 
>   \usepackage{ifpdf} % part of the hyperref bundle
>   \ifpdf % if pdflatex or lualatex is used
>   \@ifpackageloaded{fontspec}{}{% non-tex-fonts default to LModern
>% set fonts for nicer pdf view
>\IfFileExists{lmodern.sty}{\usepackage{lmodern}}{}
>   }
>   \fi % end if pdflatex is used
> 
> 
> Problems
> 
> 
> Besides beeing not a good example for LyX-use, there are specific problems
> with the current implementeation:
> 
> * Bitmapped EC fonts for PDF(XeTeX), PDF(ps2pdf) and PDF(dvipdfm)
> 
> * Bitmapped EC fonts for PS
> 
> * LatinModern 8-bit fonts are used with LuaTeX, even if "use-non-TeX-fonts"
>   is selected. This leads to failures in some of our export tests:
> 
> > For the test with non-TeX fonts, the preamble code involving lmodern.sty
> > must be changed, otherwise 8-bit fonts are used with wrong font encoding!
> 
> > One possibility would be to remove the special casing altogether,
> > possibly selecting a better font in the GUI (but this was rejected some
> > years ago).
> 
> > Another option is the following patch (similar in all places where this
> > preamble code is used):
> 
> > --- a/lib/doc/fr/UserGuide.lyx
> > +++ b/lib/doc/fr/UserGuide.lyx
> > @@ -15,11 +15,11 @@
> >  % email: lyx-d...@lists.lyx.org
> 
> >  \usepackage{ifpdf} % part of the hyperref bundle
> > -\ifpdf % if pdflatex is used
> > -
> > +\ifpdf % if pdflatex or lualatex is used
> > +\@ifpackageloaded{fontspec}{}{% non-tex-fonts default to LModern
> >   % set fonts for nicer pdf view
> >   \IfFileExists{lmodern.sty}{\usepackage{lmodern}}{}
> > -
> > +}
> >  \fi % end if pdflatex is used
> 
> >  % for correct jump positions whe clicking on a link to a float
> 
> 
> My preferred solution is still to use not only a LyX-recommended non-default 
> font encoding,
> but also a matching LyX-recommended non-default font, set via the GUI.
> 
> * Latin Modern is the community-recommended (but not automatically used)
>   "international" substitution for CM.
>   
>   + It comes with optical sizes and mixes well with the default math fonts.
>   
>   - It is too light for good on-screen reading.
>   
>   - It is not a required part of TeX.
>   
> * The PSNFSS fonts 
>   http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/required/psnfss/ can be set
>   via the LyX GUI and support the T1 font encoding.
> 
>   + required with every TeX installation
>   
>   - no optical sizes
>   
>   - sub-optimal mix with math fonts without additional packages
> (acceptable for Palatino (mathpazo) in simple use cases).
>   
> 
> Günter 

Hi Günter,

Have some of the above ideas been addressed or are they still open? I
don't know enough to help but I thought I would at least bump the email.

Scott


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Font of LyX manuals

[Guenter Milde]

Dear LyX developers,


State of the art


LyX manuals currently use user-preamble code to set the font depending on
the export route and availability:

* Latin Modern (CM-extension) with PDF(luatex), PDF(pdflatex), if lmodern.sty 
is installed

* CM-Super (another CM lookalike) with all other export routes, if it is 
installed.

* EC (bitmapped CM-extension) with all other export routes if CM-Super


Motivation
==

The idea was, that 

* we wanted to use the default font (Computer Modern (CM)) with the manuals.

* we wanted to use LyX default for the font encoding (T1) instead of the TeX
  default (the 7-bit OT1 font encoding).
  
  Using the T1 font encoding is important for non-english languages
  using the Latin alphabet, otherwise automatic hyphenation fails and the
  output quality of non-ASCII letters is bad.
  
However, the default font CM does not exist in T1 encoding and TeX
automatically selects a substitution - either CM-Super or EC which both have
problems:

* CM-Super: large (40MB), said to be of inferior quality to LatinModern

* EC: Bitmapped fonts take long with first compilation (must be generated
  from MetaFont sources in required resolution), have a fixed resolution and
  look bad in old Acrobat readers.
  
The alternative LatinModern CM-lookalike is not guaranteed to be installed
on each system. To prevent an additional dependency for compiling the
manuals, the following preamble-selection code was chosen:

  \usepackage{ifpdf} % part of the hyperref bundle
  \ifpdf % if pdflatex or lualatex is used
  \@ifpackageloaded{fontspec}{}{% non-tex-fonts default to LModern
   % set fonts for nicer pdf view
   \IfFileExists{lmodern.sty}{\usepackage{lmodern}}{}
  }
  \fi % end if pdflatex is used


Problems


Besides beeing not a good example for LyX-use, there are specific problems
with the current implementeation:

* Bitmapped EC fonts for PDF(XeTeX), PDF(ps2pdf) and PDF(dvipdfm)

* Bitmapped EC fonts for PS

* LatinModern 8-bit fonts are used with LuaTeX, even if "use-non-TeX-fonts"
  is selected. This leads to failures in some of our export tests:

> For the test with non-TeX fonts, the preamble code involving lmodern.sty
> must be changed, otherwise 8-bit fonts are used with wrong font encoding!

> One possibility would be to remove the special casing altogether,
> possibly selecting a better font in the GUI (but this was rejected some
> years ago).

> Another option is the following patch (similar in all places where this
> preamble code is used):

> --- a/lib/doc/fr/UserGuide.lyx
> +++ b/lib/doc/fr/UserGuide.lyx
> @@ -15,11 +15,11 @@
>  % email: lyx-d...@lists.lyx.org

>  \usepackage{ifpdf} % part of the hyperref bundle
> -\ifpdf % if pdflatex is used
> -
> +\ifpdf % if pdflatex or lualatex is used
> +\@ifpackageloaded{fontspec}{}{% non-tex-fonts default to LModern
>   % set fonts for nicer pdf view
>   \IfFileExists{lmodern.sty}{\usepackage{lmodern}}{}
> -
> +}
>  \fi % end if pdflatex is used

>  % for correct jump positions whe clicking on a link to a float


My preferred solution is still to use not only a LyX-recommended non-default 
font encoding,
but also a matching LyX-recommended non-default font, set via the GUI.

* Latin Modern is the community-recommended (but not automatically used)
  "international" substitution for CM.
  
  + It comes with optical sizes and mixes well with the default math fonts.
  
  - It is too light for good on-screen reading.
  
  - It is not a required part of TeX.
  
* The PSNFSS fonts 
  http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/required/psnfss/ can be set
  via the LyX GUI and support the T1 font encoding.

  + required with every TeX installation
  
  - no optical sizes
  
  - sub-optimal mix with math fonts without additional packages
(acceptable for Palatino (mathpazo) in simple use cases).
  

Günter 

Re: lyx manuals

[Pavel Sanda]

Jack Tanner wrote:
 It'd be handy to have easy access to PDF versions of LyX manuals. Is there a
 place where current LyX manuals are posted on the web in PDF, or could PDFs be
 included with the installer?

There used to be some version in wiki.
I planned to output full xhtml output ofour manuals on the web automatically
once #4501 is backported.

Pavel

Re: lyx manuals

[Pavel Sanda]

Richard Heck wrote:
 On 08/12/2012 03:21 PM, Scott Kostyshak wrote:
 From: Jack Tanner [i...@hotmail.com]
 Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 3:10 PM

 It'd be handy to have easy access to PDF versions of LyX manuals. Is 
 there a
 place where current LyX manuals are posted on the web in PDF, or could 
 PDFs be
 included with the installer?
 They are here:
 http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/DocumentationDevelopment
 I keep meaning to put XHTML versions on the web, if only to illustrate what 
 LyX can do.

I think that simple make xhtml-doc rule can be created with proper destination
folder in www module and this just commited by svn...

Pavel

Re: lyx manuals

[Pavel Sanda]

Jack Tanner wrote:
> It'd be handy to have easy access to PDF versions of LyX manuals. Is there a
> place where current LyX manuals are posted on the web in PDF, or could PDFs be
> included with the installer?

There used to be some version in wiki.
I planned to output full xhtml output ofour manuals on the web automatically
once #4501 is backported.

Pavel

Re: lyx manuals

[Pavel Sanda]

Richard Heck wrote:
> On 08/12/2012 03:21 PM, Scott Kostyshak wrote:
>> From: Jack Tanner [i...@hotmail.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 3:10 PM
>>
>>> It'd be handy to have easy access to PDF versions of LyX manuals. Is 
>>> there a
>>> place where current LyX manuals are posted on the web in PDF, or could 
>>> PDFs be
>>> included with the installer?
>> They are here:
>> http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/DocumentationDevelopment
> I keep meaning to put XHTML versions on the web, if only to illustrate what 
> LyX can do.

I think that simple "make xhtml-doc" rule can be created with proper destination
folder in www module and this just commited by svn...

Pavel

lyx manuals

[Jack Tanner]

It'd be handy to have easy access to PDF versions of LyX manuals. Is there a
place where current LyX manuals are posted on the web in PDF, or could PDFs be
included with the installer?

RE: lyx manuals

[Scott Kostyshak]

From: Jack Tanner [i...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 3:10 PM

It'd be handy to have easy access to PDF versions of LyX manuals. Is there a
place where current LyX manuals are posted on the web in PDF, or could PDFs be
included with the installer?

They are here:
http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/DocumentationDevelopment

Scott

Re: lyx manuals

[Richard Heck]

On 08/12/2012 03:21 PM, Scott Kostyshak wrote:

From: Jack Tanner [i...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 3:10 PM


It'd be handy to have easy access to PDF versions of LyX manuals. Is there a
place where current LyX manuals are posted on the web in PDF, or could PDFs be
included with the installer?

They are here:
http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/DocumentationDevelopment
I keep meaning to put XHTML versions on the web, if only to illustrate 
what LyX can do.


Richard

lyx manuals

[Jack Tanner]

It'd be handy to have easy access to PDF versions of LyX manuals. Is there a
place where current LyX manuals are posted on the web in PDF, or could PDFs be
included with the installer?

RE: lyx manuals

[Scott Kostyshak]

From: Jack Tanner [i...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 3:10 PM

>It'd be handy to have easy access to PDF versions of LyX manuals. Is there a
>place where current LyX manuals are posted on the web in PDF, or could PDFs be
>included with the installer?

They are here:
http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/DocumentationDevelopment

Scott

Re: lyx manuals

[Richard Heck]

On 08/12/2012 03:21 PM, Scott Kostyshak wrote:

From: Jack Tanner [i...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 3:10 PM


It'd be handy to have easy access to PDF versions of LyX manuals. Is there a
place where current LyX manuals are posted on the web in PDF, or could PDFs be
included with the installer?

They are here:
http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/DocumentationDevelopment
I keep meaning to put XHTML versions on the web, if only to illustrate 
what LyX can do.


Richard

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[christian . ridderstrom]

On Wed, 6 Feb 2008, Uwe Stöhr wrote:


 i found the wiki structure confusing.


Yes, because this was originally thought as developer page.


 intuitively i will look for these manuals either in
 http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/Manuals


Yes, this should be the right place. Could you design this page the way 
you think it should be? I'll correct then the links in the documentation 
to this page. (Please leave 
http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/DocumentationDevelopment as is.)



Please see my previous post... LyX documentation should be located in

LyX/Documents

I think the problem is that people don't see the link... if you didn't 
see this link in the sidebar, let me know and we can figure out a way to 
make it clearer. Perhaps by changing the sidebar from


LyX documentation
  Manuals
  Tutorials
  Presentations
  LyX Functions
  Troubleshooting
  Suggested reading

into

LyX documentation
  Documentation
  Manuals
  Tutorials
  Presentations
  LyX Functions
  Troubleshooting
  Suggested reading

That 'LyX documentation' is in both cases a link to LyX/Documentation, my 
suggestion is simply to add this link again just below the header.



 or here
 http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/LyXHelpDocuments


We can set at this page a link to
http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/Manuals


Looking at the pages, here's how I originally intended it:

* LyX/Documentation - Links to documentation about LyX and related to LyX.

* LyX/LyXHelpDocuments - This page describes the help documents that come
  with an installation of LyX.

* LyX/Manuals - A place for additional manuals (or links to them) about
  LyX

In other words, LyX/Documenation is intended as the main page for 
documentation of LyX. LyX/LyXHelpDocuments explains what you'll find in 
the documents that are accessible from the Help menu. And LyX/Manuals is a 
place for users etc to contribute non-official manuals.


I hope this makes sense...
/C

--
Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44   http://www.md.kth.se/~chr

Re: Location of documentation (Was: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals)

[Pavel Sanda]

 The link is there in sidebar, it is the header with the text
   LyX documentation
 but unfortunately I don't people understand it is also a link to a page 
 about LyX documentation.

the problem is i was not searching through sidebar but from basic lyx page
and its documentation section.

 If you didn't notice it, I should change this somehow.


 Anyway, I'd expect to find links to the PDFs from that page, i.e.

   LyX/Documentation

i have no opinion how the structure should be, do as you want.

 Could we commit the PDFs to released branches?  In other words, when 
 releasing e.g. 1.5.5, could we also generate a PDF using that version of 
 LyX and then add/commit it to the repository?  If we can do this, it is 
 easy to link from a wiki page (or a web page) directly to these files.

i dont think we should put these into svn or ftp or even source tarbals.
wiki is imho the best place.

pavel

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Herbert Voss]

Darren Freeman schrieb:

On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 08:00 +0100, Herbert Voss wrote:

Uwe Stöhr schrieb:

  Generally speaking I think it sucks that the user guide doesn't 
compile out of the box. Have other  popular (Linux) LaTeX distributions 
also skipped the floatflt package?


TeXLive came up with the removal, others followed. For Linux TeXLive is 
the only active LaTeX-distribution I know.
Generally speaking, it sucks that they discovered that floatflt has a 
nosell license after 10 years and not before! Argh.

contact the author to change the license ...
which is sometimes difficult after all these years.


This happened with prettyref as well. I looked inside prettyref when I
eventually found it, and saw how little it contained.

Surely there is somebody knowledgeable enough to re-implement floatflt
and contribute it to the distributions. Why didn't TeXLive do that
before the removal? It must have irked more than just LyX users.


TeXLive has thousands of files ...
I suppose that it is no fun to control the license of every
package ... ;-)   It is done step by step. If someone finds
a package, which doesn't have a really free license, we drop
it from texlive, but still leave it on CTAN. And if someone
volunteers and contact the author, we can change the licese.

Herbert

Re: Location of documentation (Was: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals)

[christian . ridderstrom]

On Wed, 6 Feb 2008, Pavel Sanda wrote:


The link is there in sidebar, it is the header with the text
LyX documentation
but unfortunately I don't people understand it is also a link to a page
about LyX documentation.


the problem is i was not searching through sidebar but from basic lyx 
page and its documentation section.


Hmm   Do you remember what you searched for?


If you didn't notice it, I should change this somehow.


I'd like to make it more visible... I'll see if I can do anything with the 
sidebar. The page LyX/Documentation is _intended_ as the main entry point 
for people looking for documenation about LyX...


Could we commit the PDFs to released branches?  In other words, when 
releasing e.g. 1.5.5, could we also generate a PDF using that version 
of LyX and then add/commit it to the repository?  If we can do this, it 
is easy to link from a wiki page (or a web page) directly to these 
files.


i dont think we should put these into svn or ftp or even source tarbals. 
wiki is imho the best place.


The files as such are not actually stored in the wiki, so to be clear.

- What if the wiki (e.g. LyX/Documentation) contained links to all the
  different versions of the PDFs?

- The files are accesible somewhere on the internet

The actual location of these files can then be anywhere really...

Here are some alternatives

* The uploads area of the wiki (it's not really part of the wiki, but
  whatever...)
* FTP-area
* Repository
* Somewhere on www/wiki.lyx.org, automatically built on aussie.

Thoughts?

/Christian

--
Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44   http://www.md.kth.se/~chr

Re: Location of documentation (Was: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals)

[Pavel Sanda]

 The link is there in sidebar, it is the header with the text
 LyX documentation
 but unfortunately I don't people understand it is also a link to a page
 about LyX documentation.

 the problem is i was not searching through sidebar but from basic lyx page 
 and its documentation section.

 Hmm   Do you remember what you searched for?

its partly my fault, i was looking inside the sub articles  of documentation
but somehow didnt try to click on the documentation link itself considered it
only as a grouping item. but maybe i'm not the only fool not realizing that.

 i dont think we should put these into svn or ftp or even source tarbals. 
 wiki is imho the best place.

 The files as such are not actually stored in the wiki, so to be clear.

ehh?
http://wiki.lyx.org/uploads//LyX/Manuals/1.4.2/intro.pdf

pavel

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I think the real fix should be in 1.6. Is it a real problem to do a
 1.6 that in practice only contains this as the major difference?

I do not think it would be a good idea. 

JMarc

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
 I propose to backport a subset of this (even the GUI changes may not
 be necessary).

 Juergen, as always it s up to you.

Yes, I agree that this is the best solution to the problem. Who is going to do 
the backport?

Jürgen

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Uwe Stöhr]

 Yes, I agree that this is the best solution to the problem. Who is going to do
 the backport?

I send the patch to the list.

regards Uwe

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[christian . ridderstrom]

On Wed, 6 Feb 2008, Uwe Stöhr wrote:


 i found the wiki structure confusing.


Yes, because this was originally thought as developer page.


 intuitively i will look for these manuals either in
 http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/Manuals


Yes, this should be the right place. Could you design this page the way 
you think it should be? I'll correct then the links in the documentation 
to this page. (Please leave 
http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/DocumentationDevelopment as is.)



Please see my previous post... LyX documentation should be located in

LyX/Documents

I think the problem is that people don't see the link... if you didn't 
see this link in the sidebar, let me know and we can figure out a way to 
make it clearer. Perhaps by changing the sidebar from


LyX documentation
  Manuals
  Tutorials
  Presentations
  LyX Functions
  Troubleshooting
  Suggested reading

into

LyX documentation
  Documentation
  Manuals
  Tutorials
  Presentations
  LyX Functions
  Troubleshooting
  Suggested reading

That 'LyX documentation' is in both cases a link to LyX/Documentation, my 
suggestion is simply to add this link again just below the header.



 or here
 http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/LyXHelpDocuments


We can set at this page a link to
http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/Manuals


Looking at the pages, here's how I originally intended it:

* LyX/Documentation - Links to documentation about LyX and related to LyX.

* LyX/LyXHelpDocuments - This page describes the help documents that come
  with an installation of LyX.

* LyX/Manuals - A place for additional manuals (or links to them) about
  LyX

In other words, LyX/Documenation is intended as the main page for 
documentation of LyX. LyX/LyXHelpDocuments explains what you'll find in 
the documents that are accessible from the Help menu. And LyX/Manuals is a 
place for users etc to contribute "non-official" manuals.


I hope this makes sense...
/C

--
Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44   http://www.md.kth.se/~chr

Re: Location of documentation (Was: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals)

[Pavel Sanda]

> The link is there in sidebar, it is the header with the text
>   "LyX documentation"
> but unfortunately I don't people understand it is also a link to a page 
> about LyX documentation.

the problem is i was not searching through sidebar but from basic lyx page
and its documentation section.

> If you didn't notice it, I should change this somehow.
>
>
> Anyway, I'd expect to find links to the PDFs from that page, i.e.
>
>   LyX/Documentation

i have no opinion how the structure should be, do as you want.

> Could we commit the PDFs to released branches?  In other words, when 
> releasing e.g. 1.5.5, could we also generate a PDF using that version of 
> LyX and then add/commit it to the repository?  If we can do this, it is 
> easy to link from a wiki page (or a web page) directly to these files.

i dont think we should put these into svn or ftp or even source tarbals.
wiki is imho the best place.

pavel

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Herbert Voss]

Darren Freeman schrieb:

On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 08:00 +0100, Herbert Voss wrote:

Uwe Stöhr schrieb:

 > Generally speaking I think it sucks that the user guide doesn't 
compile out of the box. Have other > popular (Linux) LaTeX distributions 
also skipped the floatflt package?


TeXLive came up with the removal, others followed. For Linux TeXLive is 
the only active LaTeX-distribution I know.
Generally speaking, it sucks that they discovered that floatflt has a 
nosell license after 10 years and not before! Argh.

contact the author to change the license ...
which is sometimes difficult after all these years.


This happened with prettyref as well. I looked inside prettyref when I
eventually found it, and saw how little it contained.

Surely there is somebody knowledgeable enough to re-implement floatflt
and contribute it to the distributions. Why didn't TeXLive do that
before the removal? It must have irked more than just LyX users.


TeXLive has thousands of files ...
I suppose that it is no fun to control the license of every
package ... ;-)   It is done step by step. If someone finds
a package, which doesn't have a really free license, we drop
it from texlive, but still leave it on CTAN. And if someone
volunteers and contact the author, we can change the licese.

Herbert

Re: Location of documentation (Was: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals)

[christian . ridderstrom]

On Wed, 6 Feb 2008, Pavel Sanda wrote:


The link is there in sidebar, it is the header with the text
"LyX documentation"
but unfortunately I don't people understand it is also a link to a page
about LyX documentation.


the problem is i was not searching through sidebar but from basic lyx 
page and its documentation section.


Hmm   Do you remember what you searched for?


If you didn't notice it, I should change this somehow.


I'd like to make it more visible... I'll see if I can do anything with the 
sidebar. The page LyX/Documentation is _intended_ as the main entry point 
for people looking for documenation about LyX...


Could we commit the PDFs to released branches?  In other words, when 
releasing e.g. 1.5.5, could we also generate a PDF using that version 
of LyX and then add/commit it to the repository?  If we can do this, it 
is easy to link from a wiki page (or a web page) directly to these 
files.


i dont think we should put these into svn or ftp or even source tarbals. 
wiki is imho the best place.


The files as such are not actually stored in the wiki, so to be clear.

- What if the wiki (e.g. LyX/Documentation) contained links to all the
  different versions of the PDFs?

- The files are accesible somewhere on the internet

The actual location of these files can then be anywhere really...

Here are some alternatives

* The "uploads" area of the wiki (it's not really part of the wiki, but
  whatever...)
* FTP-area
* Repository
* Somewhere on www/wiki.lyx.org, automatically built on aussie.

Thoughts?

/Christian

--
Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44   http://www.md.kth.se/~chr

Re: Location of documentation (Was: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals)

[Pavel Sanda]

>>> The link is there in sidebar, it is the header with the text
>>> "LyX documentation"
>>> but unfortunately I don't people understand it is also a link to a page
>>> about LyX documentation.
>>
>> the problem is i was not searching through sidebar but from basic lyx page 
>> and its documentation section.
>
> Hmm   Do you remember what you searched for?

its partly my fault, i was looking inside the sub articles  of "documentation"
but somehow didnt try to click on the "documentation" link itself considered it
only as a grouping item. but maybe i'm not the only fool not realizing that.

>> i dont think we should put these into svn or ftp or even source tarbals. 
>> wiki is imho the best place.
>
> The files as such are not actually stored in the wiki, so to be clear.

ehh?
http://wiki.lyx.org/uploads//LyX/Manuals/1.4.2/intro.pdf

pavel

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> I think the real "fix" should be in 1.6. Is it a real problem to do a
> 1.6 that in practice only contains this as the major difference?

I do not think it would be a good idea. 

JMarc

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
> I propose to backport a subset of this (even the GUI changes may not
> be necessary).
>
> Juergen, as always it s up to you.

Yes, I agree that this is the best solution to the problem. Who is going to do 
the backport?

Jürgen

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Uwe Stöhr]

> Yes, I agree that this is the best solution to the problem. Who is going to do
> the backport?

I send the patch to the list.

regards Uwe

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[christian . ridderstrom]

On Tue, 5 Feb 2008, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:


Uwe Stöhr [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Jean-Marc Lasgouttes schrieb:

 The problem is not only the documentation, but a feature of LyX that

does not work anymore. Should we investigate backporting the wrapfig
patch to branch?


But this would be a fileformat change.


Sure, but having files suddenly not typesetting is also a file format 
change :( Is there really a lyx2lyx entry related to this change?


Could we do a 1.6.0 release that only has this backport?

/Christian


--
Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44   http://www.md.kth.se/~chr

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[christian . ridderstrom]

On Tue, 5 Feb 2008, Uwe Stöhr wrote:


 E1) Putting the section about wrapping floats in a branch?
 (Will this help?)


This is indeed an option.


How about the following solution:

  (Temporarily) move the section regarding wrapping floats from the users'
  guide to some other document, and let the section in the users' guide
  refer to that document.

This document could even be a wiki page, and once 1.6 comes out, we put 
the section back in the users' guide.


This extra document can also explain how to install floatflt etc. If we go 
with this solution, I'll volunteer to set up the wiki page. Actually, I 
could just do it as a self-explaining example... complete with .lyx-file 
and .pdf-file to be downloaded.


/Christian

PS. This is embarrassing, but I heard that the documentation _is_ 
available as PDF... Wheredo you find it?   And perhaps more importantly, 
_how_ do you find it if you didn't know that it existed and thus didn't 
think of searching for it?


Is there some part of the introduction or tutorial that explains that 
these documents are also available as PDFs, and where they can be found?



--
Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44   http://www.md.kth.se/~chr

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Pavel Sanda]

  E1) Putting the section about wrapping floats in a branch?
  (Will this help?)

 This is indeed an option.

 How about the following solution:

   (Temporarily) move the section regarding wrapping floats from the users'
   guide to some other document, and let the section in the users' guide
   refer to that document.

reread the thread ;) this is not a solution as not only documentation is 
inflicted.
pavel

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Uwe Stöhr [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Is there really a lyx2lyx entry related to this change?

 I checked my commit history. When we only use a very basic
 implementation, I think we could backport it:
 http://www.lyx.org/trac/changeset/20185

Yes.

 This was the first commit that changes wrap floats from floatflt to
 wrapfig. It only need a dummy fileformat change since the content of
 the LyX-files is not really changed, only the functionality in the
 background.

I think even the dummy file format change was not needed, since there
is nothing lyx2lyx can do to alleviate whatever problem may appear.
This change of package may change the output, there not much we can do
about it.

I propose to backport a subset of this (even the GUI changes may not
be necessary).

Juergen, as always it s up to you.

JMarc

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Pavel Sanda]

 Uwe Stöhr wrote:

 Unfortunately using wrapfig like in trunk cannot be backported since it is 
 a fileformat change.
 Well - this rule doesn't have to be absolute!

this is not just about the rules. being as user used to increace from x to
1.y.x+1 without any worry about _the latex output_ is very important imho. 
i will not study way too much release notes for such an update. but i will
enquire what this 1.6 change mean, perfectly knowing i could face some problems
otherwise.

pavel

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Helge Hafting]

Uwe Stöhr wrote:


Unfortunately using wrapfig like in trunk cannot be backported since 
it is a fileformat change.

Well - this rule doesn't have to be absolute!

It sure is a good rule to have for changes initiated by the LyX project.
But this time the change is imposed from the outside.

Distributing a LyX known not to work is kind of silly - if the only
reason is that we don't want to do a fileformat change. (Nobody
wanting to add wrapfig to 1.5.4 is reasonable though.)

Doing a big job on the installer for a fix that will be obsoleted by
1.6 doesn't seem smart in this case either. No problem if
someone wants to do it anyway - but changing the fileformat to cope
with changes outside LyX is actually a good idea. It is
just the sort of thing maintenance releases are for - sync
up with TeX changes.

Of course there is also the option of renaming 1.5.4 to 1.6 because
of a single file format change, and then 1.6svn becomes 1.7svn.  The
rigid rule is then followed, we get a LyX that works with the latest Tex,
and also a shorter interval between 1.6 and 1.7 :-)

Helge Hafting

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Pavel Sanda]

 I think even the dummy file format change was not needed, since there
 is nothing lyx2lyx can do to alleviate whatever problem may appear.
 This change of package may change the output, there not much we can do
 about it.
 
 I propose to backport a subset of this (even the GUI changes may not
 be necessary).

note that there are many people with tex distros (tetex, older texlive etc)
which are simply not striked by this problem, but could be striked by the fact
the output suddenly changed from 1.5.3 to 1.5.4, so we are doing favour for one
part of people while doing disfavour for another part. i dont see the gain.

pavel

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Pavel Sanda [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 note that there are many people with tex distros (tetex, older texlive etc)
 which are simply not striked by this problem, but could be striked
 by the fact the output suddenly changed from 1.5.3 to 1.5.4, so we are doing
 favour for one part of people while doing disfavour for another
 part. i dont see the gain. 

The output is going to change in 1.6 anyway and we cannot avoid that.
The move from floatflt to wrapfig was decided because of the
shortcomings of floatflt.

Of course, documents using wrapped floats are fragile beasts, and the
change of package will probably perturb the output.

JMarc

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Uwe Stöhr]

 contact the author to change the license ...
 which is sometimes difficult after all these years.

I already did this, but got no reply until now.
If I get no reply till the end of this week, I'll try to phone him.

regards Uwe

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Uwe Stöhr]

 Is there really a lyx2lyx entry related to this change?

I checked my commit history. When we only use a very basic implementation, I 
think we could backport it:
http://www.lyx.org/trac/changeset/20185

This was the first commit that changes wrap floats from floatflt to wrapfig. It only need a dummy 
fileformat change since the content of the LyX-files is not really changed, only the functionality 
in the background.


For a proper wrapfig support we need fileformat changes:
http://www.lyx.org/trac/changeset/20462
http://www.lyx.org/trac/changeset/20713

But with the basic support, we have the same state of functionality as with 
floatflt.

So I think we can backport it. What do you think? Jürgen, your opionion?

regards Uwe

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Uwe Stöhr]

 I think we should not include floatflt in the Windows installer. This would 
mean that the
 restrictive floatflt license conditions also apply to the installer.

But that is no problem, because we don't want donations for the installer.

regards Uwe

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Helge Hafting]

Pavel Sanda wrote:

Uwe Stöhr wrote:

Unfortunately using wrapfig like in trunk cannot be backported since it is 
a fileformat change.
  

Well - this rule doesn't have to be absolute!



this is not just about the rules. being as user used to increace from x to
1.y.x+1 without any worry about _the latex output_ is very important imho. 
i will not study way too much release notes for such an update. but i will

enquire what this 1.6 change mean, perfectly knowing i could face some problems
otherwise.
  

I see.  So the only option is wait for 1.6, possibly with
a release of 1.5.4 renamed 1.6 with this fix.

Helge Hafting

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Herbert Voss]

Uwe Stöhr schrieb:
  I think we should not include floatflt in the Windows installer. This 
would mean that the

  restrictive floatflt license conditions also apply to the installer.

But that is no problem, because we don't want donations for the installer.


that is not the point ...
None of the TeX users group get money for selling the TeX-Collection.
But it is not allowed to have nosell packages on the DVD, when
book stores sell the DVD or publishers put the DVD for free in
a journal. You have to pay for the journal together with the DVD,
hence it is not free.

Herbert

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[rgheck]

Herbert Voss wrote:

Uwe Stöhr schrieb:
  I think we should not include floatflt in the Windows installer. 
This would mean that the

  restrictive floatflt license conditions also apply to the installer.

But that is no problem, because we don't want donations for the 
installer.


that is not the point ...
None of the TeX users group get money for selling the TeX-Collection.
But it is not allowed to have nosell packages on the DVD, when
book stores sell the DVD or publishers put the DVD for free in
a journal. You have to pay for the journal together with the DVD,
hence it is not free.

So if the Windows installer were included on such a DVD, that would 
violate the terms of the floatflt license. That's the point, yes?


rh

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Herbert Voss]

rgheck schrieb:

Herbert Voss wrote:

Uwe Stöhr schrieb:
  I think we should not include floatflt in the Windows installer. 
This would mean that the

  restrictive floatflt license conditions also apply to the installer.

But that is no problem, because we don't want donations for the 
installer.


that is not the point ...
None of the TeX users group get money for selling the TeX-Collection.
But it is not allowed to have nosell packages on the DVD, when
book stores sell the DVD or publishers put the DVD for free in
a journal. You have to pay for the journal together with the DVD,
hence it is not free.

So if the Windows installer were included on such a DVD, that would 
violate the terms of the floatflt license. That's the point, yes?


yes

Herbert

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Uwe Stöhr]

 Is there some part of the introduction or tutorial that explains that these 
documents are also
 available as PDFs, and where they can be found?

I added now a link in a note to where to find the PDFs.
(to http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/DocumentationDevelopment)

regards Uwe

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[christian . ridderstrom]

On Tue, 5 Feb 2008, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

note that there are many people with tex distros (tetex, older texlive 
etc) which are simply not striked by this problem, but could be striked 
by the fact the output suddenly changed from 1.5.3 to 1.5.4, so we are 
doing favour for one part of people while doing disfavour for another 
part. i dont see the gain.


The output is going to change in 1.6 anyway and we cannot avoid that. 
The move from floatflt to wrapfig was decided because of the 
shortcomings of floatflt.


I think the real fix should be in 1.6. Is it a real problem to do a 1.6 
that in practice only contains this as the major difference?


/Christian

--
Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44   http://www.md.kth.se/~chr

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Pavel Sanda]

  Is there some part of the introduction or tutorial that explains that 
 these documents are also
  available as PDFs, and where they can be found?

 I added now a link in a note to where to find the PDFs.
 (to http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/DocumentationDevelopment)

i found the wiki structure confusing.
intuitively i will look for these manuals either in
http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/Manuals
or here
http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/LyXHelpDocuments

the joke is that one find complete 1.4 documentation here.
i would propose to somehow unite all these to some consistent state,
- i mean unity of place - only one page to be found these pdfs and unity
of version - not the mix of 1.4.5.1, 1.5.1 and 1.5.4 manuals.

in such a case i will put link from official www pages to such
kind of wiki download page.

pavel

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Uwe Stöhr]

 i found the wiki structure confusing.

Yes, because this was originally thought as developer page.

 intuitively i will look for these manuals either in
 http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/Manuals

Yes, this should be the right place. Could you design this page the way you think it should be? I'll 
correct then the links in the documentation to this page.

(Please leave http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/DocumentationDevelopment as is.)

 or here
 http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/LyXHelpDocuments

We can set at this page a link to
http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/Manuals

regards Uwe

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Pavel Sanda]

 Yes, this should be the right place. Could you design this page the way you 
 think it should be? I'll correct then the links in the documentation to 
 this page.

Just added one section, nothing more needed IMHO - if it was on me I would
simply move the contents of download section in DocumentationDevelopment into
there. But I let it up to you.

 (Please leave http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/DocumentationDevelopment as is.)

  or here
  http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/LyXHelpDocuments

 We can set at this page a link to
 http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/Manuals

Yes.
Pavel

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Darren Freeman]

On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 08:00 +0100, Herbert Voss wrote:
 Uwe Stöhr schrieb:
 
Generally speaking I think it sucks that the user guide doesn't 
  compile out of the box. Have other  popular (Linux) LaTeX distributions 
  also skipped the floatflt package?
  
  TeXLive came up with the removal, others followed. For Linux TeXLive is 
  the only active LaTeX-distribution I know.
  Generally speaking, it sucks that they discovered that floatflt has a 
  nosell license after 10 years and not before! Argh.
 
 contact the author to change the license ...
 which is sometimes difficult after all these years.

This happened with prettyref as well. I looked inside prettyref when I
eventually found it, and saw how little it contained.

Surely there is somebody knowledgeable enough to re-implement floatflt
and contribute it to the distributions. Why didn't TeXLive do that
before the removal? It must have irked more than just LyX users.

Have fun,
Darren

Location of documentation (Was: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals)

[christian . ridderstrom]

On Tue, 5 Feb 2008, Pavel Sanda wrote:

Is there some part of the introduction or tutorial that explains that 
these documents are also available as PDFs, and where they can be 
found?


I added now a link in a note to where to find the PDFs.
(to http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/DocumentationDevelopment)


Does this mean you added a note to one of the manuals (which)?  Or did you 
add the note to a README?



i found the wiki structure confusing.


I agree :-(


intuitively i will look for these  manuals either in
http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/Manuals
or here
http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/LyXHelpDocuments


Did you see the link to

http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/Documentation

The link is there in sidebar, it is the header with the text
LyX documentation
but unfortunately I don't people understand it is also a link to a page 
about LyX documentation.


If you didn't notice it, I should change this somehow.


Anyway, I'd expect to find links to the PDFs from that page, i.e.

LyX/Documentation

the joke is that one find complete 1.4 documentation here. i would 
propose to somehow unite all these to some consistent state,

- i mean unity of place - only one page to be found these pdfs and unity
of version - not the mix of 1.4.5.1, 1.5.1 and 1.5.4 manuals.


Could we commit the PDFs to released branches?  In other words, when 
releasing e.g. 1.5.5, could we also generate a PDF using that version of 
LyX and then add/commit it to the repository?  If we can do this, it is 
easy to link from a wiki page (or a web page) directly to these files.


in such a case i will put link from official www pages to such kind of 
wiki download page.


If we decide to use a wiki page as a download page, we have to remember to 
give it a password. Otherwise bad people could change the download links.


A different solution for the documentation would be to generate all the 
PDFs and place them in a separate directory structure. Perhaps this could 
be on the FTP-server?


/Christian

--
Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44   http://www.md.kth.se/~chr

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[christian . ridderstrom]

On Tue, 5 Feb 2008, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:


Uwe Stöhr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:


Jean-Marc Lasgouttes schrieb:

> The problem is not only the documentation, but a feature of LyX that

does not work anymore. Should we investigate backporting the wrapfig
patch to branch?


But this would be a fileformat change.


Sure, but having files suddenly not typesetting is also a file format 
change :( Is there really a lyx2lyx entry related to this change?


Could we do a 1.6.0 release that only has this "backport"?

/Christian


--
Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44   http://www.md.kth.se/~chr

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[christian . ridderstrom]

On Tue, 5 Feb 2008, Uwe Stöhr wrote:


 E1) Putting the section about wrapping floats in a branch?
 (Will this help?)


This is indeed an option.


How about the following solution:

  (Temporarily) move the section regarding wrapping floats from the users'
  guide to some other document, and let the section in the users' guide
  refer to that document.

This document could even be a wiki page, and once 1.6 comes out, we put 
the section back in the users' guide.


This extra document can also explain how to install floatflt etc. If we go 
with this solution, I'll volunteer to set up the wiki page. Actually, I 
could just do it as a self-explaining example... complete with .lyx-file 
and .pdf-file to be downloaded.


/Christian

PS. This is embarrassing, but I heard that the documentation _is_ 
available as PDF... Wheredo you find it?   And perhaps more importantly, 
_how_ do you find it if you didn't know that it existed and thus didn't 
think of searching for it?


Is there some part of the introduction or tutorial that explains that 
these documents are also available as PDFs, and where they can be found?



--
Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44   http://www.md.kth.se/~chr

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Pavel Sanda]

>>>  E1) Putting the section about wrapping floats in a branch?
>>>  (Will this help?)
>>
>> This is indeed an option.
>
> How about the following solution:
>
>   (Temporarily) move the section regarding wrapping floats from the users'
>   guide to some other document, and let the section in the users' guide
>   refer to that document.

reread the thread ;) this is not a solution as not only documentation is 
inflicted.
pavel

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Uwe Stöhr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> Is there really a lyx2lyx entry related to this change?
>
> I checked my commit history. When we only use a very basic
> implementation, I think we could backport it:
> http://www.lyx.org/trac/changeset/20185

Yes.

> This was the first commit that changes wrap floats from floatflt to
> wrapfig. It only need a dummy fileformat change since the content of
> the LyX-files is not really changed, only the functionality in the
> background.

I think even the dummy file format change was not needed, since there
is nothing lyx2lyx can do to alleviate whatever problem may appear.
This change of package may change the output, there not much we can do
about it.

I propose to backport a subset of this (even the GUI changes may not
be necessary).

Juergen, as always it s up to you.

JMarc

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Pavel Sanda]

> Uwe Stöhr wrote:
>>
>> Unfortunately using wrapfig like in trunk cannot be backported since it is 
>> a fileformat change.
> Well - this rule doesn't have to be absolute!

this is not just about the rules. being as user used to increace from x to
1.y.x+1 without any worry about _the latex output_ is very important imho. 
i will not study way too much release notes for such an update. but i will
enquire what this 1.6 change mean, perfectly knowing i could face some problems
otherwise.

pavel

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Helge Hafting]

Uwe Stöhr wrote:


Unfortunately using wrapfig like in trunk cannot be backported since 
it is a fileformat change.

Well - this rule doesn't have to be absolute!

It sure is a good rule to have for changes initiated by the LyX project.
But this time the change is imposed from the outside.

Distributing a LyX known not to work is kind of silly - if the only
reason is that we don't want to do a fileformat change. (Nobody
wanting to add wrapfig to 1.5.4 is reasonable though.)

Doing a big job on the installer for a fix that will be obsoleted by
1.6 doesn't seem smart in this case either. No problem if
someone wants to do it anyway - but changing the fileformat to cope
with changes outside LyX is actually a good idea. It is
just the sort of thing maintenance releases are for - sync
up with TeX changes.

Of course there is also the option of renaming 1.5.4 to 1.6 because
of a single file format change, and then 1.6svn becomes 1.7svn.  The
rigid rule is then followed, we get a LyX that works with the latest Tex,
and also a shorter interval between 1.6 and 1.7 :-)

Helge Hafting

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Pavel Sanda]

> I think even the dummy file format change was not needed, since there
> is nothing lyx2lyx can do to alleviate whatever problem may appear.
> This change of package may change the output, there not much we can do
> about it.
> 
> I propose to backport a subset of this (even the GUI changes may not
> be necessary).

note that there are many people with tex distros (tetex, older texlive etc)
which are simply not striked by this problem, but could be striked by the fact
the output suddenly changed from 1.5.3 to 1.5.4, so we are doing favour for one
part of people while doing disfavour for another part. i dont see the gain.

pavel

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Pavel Sanda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> note that there are many people with tex distros (tetex, older texlive etc)
> which are simply not striked by this problem, but could be striked
> by the fact the output suddenly changed from 1.5.3 to 1.5.4, so we are doing
> favour for one part of people while doing disfavour for another
> part. i dont see the gain. 

The output is going to change in 1.6 anyway and we cannot avoid that.
The move from floatflt to wrapfig was decided because of the
shortcomings of floatflt.

Of course, documents using wrapped floats are fragile beasts, and the
change of package will probably perturb the output.

JMarc

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Uwe Stöhr]

> contact the author to change the license ...
> which is sometimes difficult after all these years.

I already did this, but got no reply until now.
If I get no reply till the end of this week, I'll try to phone him.

regards Uwe

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Uwe Stöhr]

> Is there really a lyx2lyx entry related to this change?

I checked my commit history. When we only use a very basic implementation, I 
think we could backport it:
http://www.lyx.org/trac/changeset/20185

This was the first commit that changes wrap floats from floatflt to wrapfig. It only need a dummy 
fileformat change since the content of the LyX-files is not really changed, only the functionality 
in the background.


For a proper wrapfig support we need fileformat changes:
http://www.lyx.org/trac/changeset/20462
http://www.lyx.org/trac/changeset/20713

But with the basic support, we have the same state of functionality as with 
floatflt.

So I think we can backport it. What do you think? Jürgen, your opionion?

regards Uwe

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Uwe Stöhr]

> I think we should not include floatflt in the Windows installer. This would 
mean that the
> restrictive floatflt license conditions also apply to the installer.

But that is no problem, because we don't want donations for the installer.

regards Uwe

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Helge Hafting]

Pavel Sanda wrote:

Uwe Stöhr wrote:

Unfortunately using wrapfig like in trunk cannot be backported since it is 
a fileformat change.
  

Well - this rule doesn't have to be absolute!



this is not just about the rules. being as user used to increace from x to
1.y.x+1 without any worry about _the latex output_ is very important imho. 
i will not study way too much release notes for such an update. but i will

enquire what this 1.6 change mean, perfectly knowing i could face some problems
otherwise.
  

I see.  So the only option is "wait for 1.6", possibly with
a release of 1.5.4 renamed 1.6 with this fix.

Helge Hafting

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Herbert Voss]

Uwe Stöhr schrieb:
 > I think we should not include floatflt in the Windows installer. This 
would mean that the

 > restrictive floatflt license conditions also apply to the installer.

But that is no problem, because we don't want donations for the installer.


that is not the point ...
None of the TeX users group get money for selling the TeX-Collection.
But it is not allowed to have "nosell" packages on the DVD, when
book stores sell the DVD or publishers put the DVD for free in
a journal. You have to pay for the journal together with the DVD,
hence it is not free.

Herbert

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[rgheck]

Herbert Voss wrote:

Uwe Stöhr schrieb:
 > I think we should not include floatflt in the Windows installer. 
This would mean that the

 > restrictive floatflt license conditions also apply to the installer.

But that is no problem, because we don't want donations for the 
installer.


that is not the point ...
None of the TeX users group get money for selling the TeX-Collection.
But it is not allowed to have "nosell" packages on the DVD, when
book stores sell the DVD or publishers put the DVD for free in
a journal. You have to pay for the journal together with the DVD,
hence it is not free.

So if the Windows installer were included on such a DVD, that would 
violate the terms of the floatflt license. That's the point, yes?


rh

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Herbert Voss]

rgheck schrieb:

Herbert Voss wrote:

Uwe Stöhr schrieb:
 > I think we should not include floatflt in the Windows installer. 
This would mean that the

 > restrictive floatflt license conditions also apply to the installer.

But that is no problem, because we don't want donations for the 
installer.


that is not the point ...
None of the TeX users group get money for selling the TeX-Collection.
But it is not allowed to have "nosell" packages on the DVD, when
book stores sell the DVD or publishers put the DVD for free in
a journal. You have to pay for the journal together with the DVD,
hence it is not free.

So if the Windows installer were included on such a DVD, that would 
violate the terms of the floatflt license. That's the point, yes?


yes

Herbert

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Uwe Stöhr]

> Is there some part of the introduction or tutorial that explains that these 
documents are also
> available as PDFs, and where they can be found?

I added now a link in a note to where to find the PDFs.
(to http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/DocumentationDevelopment)

regards Uwe

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[christian . ridderstrom]

On Tue, 5 Feb 2008, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

note that there are many people with tex distros (tetex, older texlive 
etc) which are simply not striked by this problem, but could be striked 
by the fact the output suddenly changed from 1.5.3 to 1.5.4, so we are 
doing favour for one part of people while doing disfavour for another 
part. i dont see the gain.


The output is going to change in 1.6 anyway and we cannot avoid that. 
The move from floatflt to wrapfig was decided because of the 
shortcomings of floatflt.


I think the real "fix" should be in 1.6. Is it a real problem to do a 1.6 
that in practice only contains this as the major difference?


/Christian

--
Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44   http://www.md.kth.se/~chr

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Pavel Sanda]

> > Is there some part of the introduction or tutorial that explains that 
> these documents are also
> > available as PDFs, and where they can be found?
>
> I added now a link in a note to where to find the PDFs.
> (to http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/DocumentationDevelopment)

i found the wiki structure confusing.
intuitively i will look for these manuals either in
http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/Manuals
or here
http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/LyXHelpDocuments

the joke is that one find complete 1.4 documentation here.
i would propose to somehow unite all these to some consistent state,
- i mean unity of place - only one page to be found these pdfs and unity
of version - not the mix of 1.4.5.1, 1.5.1 and 1.5.4 manuals.

in such a case i will put link from official www pages to such
kind of wiki download page.

pavel

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Uwe Stöhr]

> i found the wiki structure confusing.

Yes, because this was originally thought as developer page.

> intuitively i will look for these manuals either in
> http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/Manuals

Yes, this should be the right place. Could you design this page the way you think it should be? I'll 
correct then the links in the documentation to this page.

(Please leave http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/DocumentationDevelopment as is.)

> or here
> http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/LyXHelpDocuments

We can set at this page a link to
http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/Manuals

regards Uwe

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Pavel Sanda]

> Yes, this should be the right place. Could you design this page the way you 
> think it should be? I'll correct then the links in the documentation to 
> this page.

Just added one section, nothing more needed IMHO - if it was on me I would
simply move the contents of download section in DocumentationDevelopment into
there. But I let it up to you.

> (Please leave http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/DocumentationDevelopment as is.)
>
> > or here
> > http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/LyXHelpDocuments
>
> We can set at this page a link to
> http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/Manuals

Yes.
Pavel

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Darren Freeman]

On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 08:00 +0100, Herbert Voss wrote:
> Uwe Stöhr schrieb:
> 
> >  > Generally speaking I think it sucks that the user guide doesn't 
> > compile out of the box. Have other > popular (Linux) LaTeX distributions 
> > also skipped the floatflt package?
> > 
> > TeXLive came up with the removal, others followed. For Linux TeXLive is 
> > the only active LaTeX-distribution I know.
> > Generally speaking, it sucks that they discovered that floatflt has a 
> > nosell license after 10 years and not before! Argh.
> 
> contact the author to change the license ...
> which is sometimes difficult after all these years.

This happened with prettyref as well. I looked inside prettyref when I
eventually found it, and saw how little it contained.

Surely there is somebody knowledgeable enough to re-implement floatflt
and contribute it to the distributions. Why didn't TeXLive do that
before the removal? It must have irked more than just LyX users.

Have fun,
Darren

Location of documentation (Was: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals)

[christian . ridderstrom]

On Tue, 5 Feb 2008, Pavel Sanda wrote:

Is there some part of the introduction or tutorial that explains that 
these documents are also available as PDFs, and where they can be 
found?


I added now a link in a note to where to find the PDFs.
(to http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/DocumentationDevelopment)


Does this mean you added a note to one of the manuals (which)?  Or did you 
add the note to a README?



i found the wiki structure confusing.


I agree :-(


intuitively i will look for these  manuals either in
http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/Manuals
or here
http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/LyXHelpDocuments


Did you see the link to

http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/Documentation

The link is there in sidebar, it is the header with the text
"LyX documentation"
but unfortunately I don't people understand it is also a link to a page 
about LyX documentation.


If you didn't notice it, I should change this somehow.


Anyway, I'd expect to find links to the PDFs from that page, i.e.

LyX/Documentation

the joke is that one find complete 1.4 documentation here. i would 
propose to somehow unite all these to some consistent state,

- i mean unity of place - only one page to be found these pdfs and unity
of version - not the mix of 1.4.5.1, 1.5.1 and 1.5.4 manuals.


Could we commit the PDFs to released branches?  In other words, when 
releasing e.g. 1.5.5, could we also generate a PDF using that version of 
LyX and then add/commit it to the repository?  If we can do this, it is 
easy to link from a wiki page (or a web page) directly to these files.


in such a case i will put link from official www pages to such kind of 
wiki download page.


If we decide to use a wiki page as a download page, we have to remember to 
give it a password. Otherwise bad people could change the download links.


A different solution for the documentation would be to generate all the 
PDFs and place them in a separate directory structure. Perhaps this could 
be on the FTP-server?


/Christian

--
Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44   http://www.md.kth.se/~chr

important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Uwe Stöhr]

The LaTeX-package floatflt that we use for wrap floats has been deleted in 
TeXLive and MikTeX:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.tex.live/15236
So from now on new LyX users won't be able to use wrap floats nor compile the manuals. This was the 
reason why we got so many complaints abpout the manuals the last days.


As first reaction I contacted the package author if he agrees to change the package license and 
remove the nosell statement. But I guess he's not responding since the floatflt package has not been 
updated since 10 years now.


For LyX 1.6, I rewrote the wrap floats stuff so that we now use wrapfig. But shall we do in the 
meantime for LyX 1.5.4. I could remove the explanation of wrap floats but don't like this solution. 
Any ideas?


regards Uwe

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[christian . ridderstrom]

On Sun, 3 Feb 2008, Uwe Stöhr wrote:

The LaTeX-package floatflt that we use for wrap floats has been deleted in 
TeXLive and MikTeX:

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.tex.live/15236
So from now on new LyX users won't be able to use wrap floats nor compile the 
manuals. This was the reason why we got so many complaints abpout the manuals 
the last days.


As first reaction I contacted the package author if he agrees to change 
the package license and remove the nosell statement. But I guess he's 
not responding since the floatflt package has not been updated since 10 
years now.


For LyX 1.6, I rewrote the wrap floats stuff so that we now use wrapfig. 
But shall we do in the meantime for LyX 1.5.4. I could remove the 
explanation of wrap floats but don't like this solution. Any ideas?


Some short term alternatives (not necessarily exclusive):

A) Do nothing.

B) Say that users have to install floatflt.sty themselves in the
   installation notes.

B1) Explain how users can install flaotflt.sty

C) Provide the manual in PDF form

D) Windows only: Modify the installer to install floatflt.sty

E) Remove the section of wrapping floats?

E1) Putting the section about wrapping floats in a branch?
(Will this help?)

F) Provide the flaotflt.sty package with the users' guide?
   (Can we do this from a license point of view?)

Other ideas?

Generally speaking I think it sucks that the user guide doesn't compile 
out of the box. Have other popular (Linux) LaTeX distributions also 
skipped the floatflt package?


/C

--
Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44   http://www.md.kth.se/~chr

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Pavel Sanda]

 For LyX 1.6, I rewrote the wrap floats stuff so that we now use wrapfig. 
 But shall we do in the meantime for LyX 1.5.4. I could remove the 
 explanation of wrap floats but don't like this solution. Any ideas?

imho the priority #1 is to have users manual compilable without _any_ special
action on the users side. anything else gives very wrong impression of lyx no
matter if we are (not) responsible.

if we are not allowed to distribute floatflt package or there is no workaround
i vote for removing it from documentation even if its a regression :(

pavel

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Pavel Sanda [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 imho the priority #1 is to have users manual compilable without _any_ special
 action on the users side. anything else gives very wrong impression of lyx no
 matter if we are (not) responsible.

 if we are not allowed to distribute floatflt package or there is no workaround
 i vote for removing it from documentation even if its a regression :(

The problem is not only the documentation, but a feature of LyX that
does not work anymore. Should we investigate backporting the wrapfig
patch to branch?

JMarc

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Pavel Sanda]

  F) Provide the flaotflt.sty package with the users' guide?
 (Can we do this from a license point of view?)

 The license allows this, but this doesn't help as you have o install the 
 pacakge to LaTeX.

this seems to be good news, because if we are allowed to provide floatflt, i
guess most linux distros are capable of adding it to local TeX distribution (as
a part of LyX instalation).

pavel

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Uwe Stöhr]

 B) Say that users have to install floatflt.sty themselves in the
   installation notes.

For linux I see no other way.

 B1) Explain how users can install flaotflt.sty

Yes, together with B.

 C) Provide the manual in PDF form

We already do.

 D) Windows only: Modify the installer to install floatflt.sty

I'll implement this in the installer for LyX 1.5.4.

 E) Remove the section of wrapping floats?

Hmm, and waht about the users still having a LaTeX-distribution. Only new users are affected by the 
problem.


 E1) Putting the section about wrapping floats in a branch?
 (Will this help?)

This is indeed an option.

 F) Provide the flaotflt.sty package with the users' guide?
(Can we do this from a license point of view?)

The license allows this, but this doesn't help as you have o install the 
pacakge to LaTeX.

 Generally speaking I think it sucks that the user guide doesn't compile out of the box. Have 
other  popular (Linux) LaTeX distributions also skipped the floatflt package?


TeXLive came up with the removal, others followed. For Linux TeXLive is the only active 
LaTeX-distribution I know.
Generally speaking, it sucks that they discovered that floatflt has a nosell license after 10 years 
and not before! Argh.


Unfortunately using wrapfig like in trunk cannot be backported since it is a 
fileformat change.

regards Uwe

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Joost Verburg]

Pavel Sanda wrote:

F) Provide the flaotflt.sty package with the users' guide?
   (Can we do this from a license point of view?)
The license allows this, but this doesn't help as you have o install the 
pacakge to LaTeX.


this seems to be good news, because if we are allowed to provide floatflt, i
guess most linux distros are capable of adding it to local TeX distribution (as
a part of LyX instalation).


I don't think that will happen, they will have the same problem with the 
license.


Joost

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Joost Verburg]

Uwe Stöhr wrote:

  D) Windows only: Modify the installer to install floatflt.sty

I'll implement this in the installer for LyX 1.5.4.


I think we should not include floatflt in the Windows installer. This 
would mean that the restrictive floatflt license conditions also apply 
to the installer.


A separate download on the wiki would be possible.

Joost

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Uwe Stöhr]

Jean-Marc Lasgouttes schrieb:

  The problem is not only the documentation, but a feature of LyX that

does not work anymore. Should we investigate backporting the wrapfig
patch to branch?


But this would be a fileformat change.

regards Uwe

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Uwe Stöhr [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Jean-Marc Lasgouttes schrieb:

   The problem is not only the documentation, but a feature of LyX that
 does not work anymore. Should we investigate backporting the wrapfig
 patch to branch?

 But this would be a fileformat change.

Sure, but having files suddenly not typesetting is also a file format
change :( Is there really a lyx2lyx entry related to this change?

JMarc

Re: important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Herbert Voss]

Uwe Stöhr schrieb:

  Generally speaking I think it sucks that the user guide doesn't 
compile out of the box. Have other  popular (Linux) LaTeX distributions 
also skipped the floatflt package?


TeXLive came up with the removal, others followed. For Linux TeXLive is 
the only active LaTeX-distribution I know.
Generally speaking, it sucks that they discovered that floatflt has a 
nosell license after 10 years and not before! Argh.


contact the author to change the license ...
which is sometimes difficult after all these years.

Herbert

important info about the floatflt package and the LyX manuals

[Uwe Stöhr]

The LaTeX-package floatflt that we use for wrap floats has been deleted in 
TeXLive and MikTeX:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.tex.live/15236
So from now on new LyX users won't be able to use wrap floats nor compile the manuals. This was the 
reason why we got so many complaints abpout the manuals the last days.


As first reaction I contacted the package author if he agrees to change the package license and 
remove the nosell statement. But I guess he's not responding since the floatflt package has not been 
updated since 10 years now.


For LyX 1.6, I rewrote the wrap floats stuff so that we now use wrapfig. But shall we do in the 
meantime for LyX 1.5.4. I could remove the explanation of wrap floats but don't like this solution. 
Any ideas?


regards Uwe