Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-06-24, Alex Fernandez wrote:

 Sure, but eLyXer does not output MathML. I am waiting for Richard to
 implement it in LyX so that I can then rip it off... (just joking).

As eLyXer is written in Python, the MathML extension for Docutils
might provide something to rip off:
http://docutils.sourceforge.net/sandbox/jensj/latex_math/

Günter

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-06-24, Alex Fernandez wrote:

 Sure, but eLyXer does not output MathML. I am waiting for Richard to
 implement it in LyX so that I can then rip it off... (just joking).

As eLyXer is written in Python, the MathML extension for Docutils
might provide something to rip off:
http://docutils.sourceforge.net/sandbox/jensj/latex_math/

Günter

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-06-24, Alex Fernandez wrote:

> Sure, but eLyXer does not output MathML. I am waiting for Richard to
> implement it in LyX so that I can then rip it off... (just joking).

As eLyXer is written in Python, the MathML extension for Docutils
might provide something to rip off:
http://docutils.sourceforge.net/sandbox/jensj/latex_math/

Günter

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Pavel Sanda]

Alex Fernandez wrote:
  The forthcoming HTML output from LyX will therefore use png's initially and
  shoot for MathML later. Note that the latter won't be as hard as writing a
  LaTeX to MathML converter (though these do exist), since we already have a
  parsed form of the LaTeX and can output MathML off that tree.
 
 Once it is there it will be nice to have two options for HTML output.
 Meanwhile eLyXer will use XHTML and CSS2 which can be rendered
 acceptably on modern browsers.

yes this option would be good and i thing Richard would be happy if you 
could help to support MathML in the native html output with the experience
you gained on elyxer...

pavel

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Alex Fernandez]

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 11:02 PM, Pavel Sandasa...@lyx.org wrote:
 Alex Fernandez wrote:
 Once it is there it will be nice to have two options for HTML output.
 Meanwhile eLyXer will use XHTML and CSS2 which can be rendered
 acceptably on modern browsers.

 yes this option would be good and i thing Richard would be happy if you
 could help to support MathML in the native html output with the experience
 you gained on elyxer...

Sure, but eLyXer does not output MathML. I am waiting for Richard to
implement it in LyX so that I can then rip it off... (just joking).

Alex.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Pavel Sanda]

Alex Fernandez wrote:
  The forthcoming HTML output from LyX will therefore use png's initially and
  shoot for MathML later. Note that the latter won't be as hard as writing a
  LaTeX to MathML converter (though these do exist), since we already have a
  parsed form of the LaTeX and can output MathML off that tree.
 
 Once it is there it will be nice to have two options for HTML output.
 Meanwhile eLyXer will use XHTML and CSS2 which can be rendered
 acceptably on modern browsers.

yes this option would be good and i thing Richard would be happy if you 
could help to support MathML in the native html output with the experience
you gained on elyxer...

pavel

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Alex Fernandez]

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 11:02 PM, Pavel Sandasa...@lyx.org wrote:
 Alex Fernandez wrote:
 Once it is there it will be nice to have two options for HTML output.
 Meanwhile eLyXer will use XHTML and CSS2 which can be rendered
 acceptably on modern browsers.

 yes this option would be good and i thing Richard would be happy if you
 could help to support MathML in the native html output with the experience
 you gained on elyxer...

Sure, but eLyXer does not output MathML. I am waiting for Richard to
implement it in LyX so that I can then rip it off... (just joking).

Alex.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Pavel Sanda]

Alex Fernandez wrote:
> > The forthcoming HTML output from LyX will therefore use png's initially and
> > shoot for MathML later. Note that the latter won't be as hard as writing a
> > LaTeX to MathML converter (though these do exist), since we already have a
> > parsed form of the LaTeX and can output MathML off that tree.
> 
> Once it is there it will be nice to have two options for HTML output.
> Meanwhile eLyXer will use XHTML and CSS2 which can be rendered
> acceptably on modern browsers.

yes this option would be good and i thing Richard would be happy if you 
could help to support MathML in the native html output with the experience
you gained on elyxer...

pavel

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Alex Fernandez]

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 11:02 PM, Pavel Sanda wrote:
> Alex Fernandez wrote:
>> Once it is there it will be nice to have two options for HTML output.
>> Meanwhile eLyXer will use XHTML and CSS2 which can be rendered
>> acceptably on modern browsers.
>
> yes this option would be good and i thing Richard would be happy if you
> could help to support MathML in the native html output with the experience
> you gained on elyxer...

Sure, but eLyXer does not output MathML. I am waiting for Richard to
implement it in LyX so that I can then rip it off... (just joking).

Alex.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-06-18, Murray Eisenberg wrote:

 I hate to say this, but the target page is a good example of why
 converting math in LaTeX (whether originating in LyX or not) to HTML
 gives such bad results. Here are a few of the uglies:

...

This is why I would favour an --use-MathML option.

For the occasional x + y = z a HTML export might suffice and in any way
excel the conversion to a to-be-included PNG.

Günter

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Alex Fernandez]

Hi Murray,

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 3:07 AM, Murray Eisenbergmur...@math.umass.edu wrote:
 I hate to say this, but the target page is a good example of why
 converting math in LaTeX (whether originating in LyX or not) to HTML
 gives such bad results. Here are a few of the uglies:

What you are outlining are basically differences between the LaTeX
version and the HTML generated by eLyXer. We know that results are not
going to be identical, at least not until we are using MathML (and its
moment has not come yet IMHO); but they are an approximation to be
used in certain situations.

I am sure that when you write equations on the blackboard you don't
draw typographically-perfect symbols, but they do the job. The same
for PowerPoint presentations -- you can compose a simple equation
which is more-or-less what you want, but many things will come out a
bit distorted, even if you just paste a screenshot from a PDF.

The Math Showcase is there precisely to show what you can expect from
eLyXer output. I am aware of all the points you mention and a few
more: fractions not exactly centered with the rest of the line,
equation numbering only in the destination and not in the link, no
space between fractions and units, square root symbols not covering
all of the radicand; and this is without getting into fancy TeX stuff.
Some features are acceptable, others can be improved, and others
simply cannot be done at all.

To improve eLyXer I am going to need something more than just HTML
output is not _exactly_ like PDF output. Which points are
particularly bothering you (and you cannot live with them)? How would
you solve them? Sample CSS code would be very useful.

 There's also one issue not with the conversion but with the original
 typesetting: in 4.3, the kg units should be set upright, not italic.

This one has been reported by many people, thanks to you all! It is
proving to be surprisingly hard to solve, due to how eLyXer stores the
results of the conversion, but it will hopefully be solved for 0.28.

Thanks,

Alex.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[rgheck]

Murray Eisenberg wrote:

Please let me know if you like the changes:
  http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/math.html
  

Tiny change, huge improvement. Beautiful.



I hate to say this, but the target page is a good example of why
converting math in LaTeX (whether originating in LyX or not) to HTML
gives such bad results. 

  
And I guess the results must be much better on some other system than on 
mine since, on mine, much of this is completely unreadable. Attached is 
what I get in 4.3. I have no idea what this is supposed to be, but 
presumably not as is. (This is with Firefox 2.0.0.19 on Fedora 8.)


The forthcoming HTML output from LyX will therefore use png's initially 
and shoot for MathML later. Note that the latter won't be as hard as 
writing a LaTeX to MathML converter (though these do exist), since we 
already have a parsed form of the LaTeX and can output MathML off that tree.


rh

inline: math1.png

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Alex Fernandez]

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 3:54 PM, rgheckrgh...@bobjweil.com wrote:
 And I guess the results must be much better on some other system than on
 mine since, on mine, much of this is completely unreadable. Attached is what
 I get in 4.3. I have no idea what this is supposed to be, but presumably not
 as is. (This is with Firefox 2.0.0.19 on Fedora 8.)

eLyXer output requires CSS2, which is poorly supported on Firefox 2.
You should try Firefox 3 (which yesterday turned 1 year old by the
way) where it looks much better. What it means is: time to upgrade!

 The forthcoming HTML output from LyX will therefore use png's initially and
 shoot for MathML later. Note that the latter won't be as hard as writing a
 LaTeX to MathML converter (though these do exist), since we already have a
 parsed form of the LaTeX and can output MathML off that tree.

Once it is there it will be nice to have two options for HTML output.
Meanwhile eLyXer will use XHTML and CSS2 which can be rendered
acceptably on modern browsers.

Alex.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-06-18, Murray Eisenberg wrote:

 I hate to say this, but the target page is a good example of why
 converting math in LaTeX (whether originating in LyX or not) to HTML
 gives such bad results. Here are a few of the uglies:

...

This is why I would favour an --use-MathML option.

For the occasional x + y = z a HTML export might suffice and in any way
excel the conversion to a to-be-included PNG.

Günter

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Alex Fernandez]

Hi Murray,

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 3:07 AM, Murray Eisenbergmur...@math.umass.edu wrote:
 I hate to say this, but the target page is a good example of why
 converting math in LaTeX (whether originating in LyX or not) to HTML
 gives such bad results. Here are a few of the uglies:

What you are outlining are basically differences between the LaTeX
version and the HTML generated by eLyXer. We know that results are not
going to be identical, at least not until we are using MathML (and its
moment has not come yet IMHO); but they are an approximation to be
used in certain situations.

I am sure that when you write equations on the blackboard you don't
draw typographically-perfect symbols, but they do the job. The same
for PowerPoint presentations -- you can compose a simple equation
which is more-or-less what you want, but many things will come out a
bit distorted, even if you just paste a screenshot from a PDF.

The Math Showcase is there precisely to show what you can expect from
eLyXer output. I am aware of all the points you mention and a few
more: fractions not exactly centered with the rest of the line,
equation numbering only in the destination and not in the link, no
space between fractions and units, square root symbols not covering
all of the radicand; and this is without getting into fancy TeX stuff.
Some features are acceptable, others can be improved, and others
simply cannot be done at all.

To improve eLyXer I am going to need something more than just HTML
output is not _exactly_ like PDF output. Which points are
particularly bothering you (and you cannot live with them)? How would
you solve them? Sample CSS code would be very useful.

 There's also one issue not with the conversion but with the original
 typesetting: in 4.3, the kg units should be set upright, not italic.

This one has been reported by many people, thanks to you all! It is
proving to be surprisingly hard to solve, due to how eLyXer stores the
results of the conversion, but it will hopefully be solved for 0.28.

Thanks,

Alex.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[rgheck]

Murray Eisenberg wrote:

Please let me know if you like the changes:
  http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/math.html
  

Tiny change, huge improvement. Beautiful.



I hate to say this, but the target page is a good example of why
converting math in LaTeX (whether originating in LyX or not) to HTML
gives such bad results. 

  
And I guess the results must be much better on some other system than on 
mine since, on mine, much of this is completely unreadable. Attached is 
what I get in 4.3. I have no idea what this is supposed to be, but 
presumably not as is. (This is with Firefox 2.0.0.19 on Fedora 8.)


The forthcoming HTML output from LyX will therefore use png's initially 
and shoot for MathML later. Note that the latter won't be as hard as 
writing a LaTeX to MathML converter (though these do exist), since we 
already have a parsed form of the LaTeX and can output MathML off that tree.


rh

inline: math1.png

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Alex Fernandez]

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 3:54 PM, rgheckrgh...@bobjweil.com wrote:
 And I guess the results must be much better on some other system than on
 mine since, on mine, much of this is completely unreadable. Attached is what
 I get in 4.3. I have no idea what this is supposed to be, but presumably not
 as is. (This is with Firefox 2.0.0.19 on Fedora 8.)

eLyXer output requires CSS2, which is poorly supported on Firefox 2.
You should try Firefox 3 (which yesterday turned 1 year old by the
way) where it looks much better. What it means is: time to upgrade!

 The forthcoming HTML output from LyX will therefore use png's initially and
 shoot for MathML later. Note that the latter won't be as hard as writing a
 LaTeX to MathML converter (though these do exist), since we already have a
 parsed form of the LaTeX and can output MathML off that tree.

Once it is there it will be nice to have two options for HTML output.
Meanwhile eLyXer will use XHTML and CSS2 which can be rendered
acceptably on modern browsers.

Alex.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-06-18, Murray Eisenberg wrote:

> I hate to say this, but the target page is a good example of why
> converting math in LaTeX (whether originating in LyX or not) to HTML
> gives such bad results. Here are a few of the "uglies":

...

This is why I would favour an --use-MathML option.

For the occasional x + y = z a HTML export might suffice and in any way
excel the conversion to a to-be-included PNG.

Günter

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Alex Fernandez]

Hi Murray,

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 3:07 AM, Murray Eisenberg wrote:
> I hate to say this, but the target page is a good example of why
> converting math in LaTeX (whether originating in LyX or not) to HTML
> gives such bad results. Here are a few of the "uglies":

What you are outlining are basically differences between the LaTeX
version and the HTML generated by eLyXer. We know that results are not
going to be identical, at least not until we are using MathML (and its
moment has not come yet IMHO); but they are an approximation to be
used in certain situations.

I am sure that when you write equations on the blackboard you don't
draw typographically-perfect symbols, but they do the job. The same
for PowerPoint presentations -- you can compose a simple equation
which is more-or-less what you want, but many things will come out a
bit distorted, even if you just paste a screenshot from a PDF.

The Math Showcase is there precisely to show what you can expect from
eLyXer output. I am aware of all the points you mention and a few
more: fractions not exactly centered with the rest of the line,
equation numbering only in the destination and not in the link, no
space between fractions and units, square root symbols not covering
all of the radicand; and this is without getting into fancy TeX stuff.
Some features are acceptable, others can be improved, and others
simply cannot be done at all.

To improve eLyXer I am going to need something more than just "HTML
output is not _exactly_ like PDF output". Which points are
particularly bothering you (and you cannot live with them)? How would
you solve them? Sample CSS code would be very useful.

> There's also one issue not with the conversion but with the original
> typesetting: in 4.3, the kg units should be set upright, not italic.

This one has been reported by many people, thanks to you all! It is
proving to be surprisingly hard to solve, due to how eLyXer stores the
results of the conversion, but it will hopefully be solved for 0.28.

Thanks,

Alex.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[rgheck]

Murray Eisenberg wrote:

Please let me know if you like the changes:
  http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/math.html
  

Tiny change, huge improvement. Beautiful.



I hate to say this, but the target page is a good example of why
converting math in LaTeX (whether originating in LyX or not) to HTML
gives such bad results. 

  
And I guess the results must be much better on some other system than on 
mine since, on mine, much of this is completely unreadable. Attached is 
what I get in 4.3. I have no idea what this is supposed to be, but 
presumably not as is. (This is with Firefox 2.0.0.19 on Fedora 8.)


The forthcoming HTML output from LyX will therefore use png's initially 
and shoot for MathML later. Note that the latter won't be as hard as 
writing a LaTeX to MathML converter (though these do exist), since we 
already have a parsed form of the LaTeX and can output MathML off that tree.


rh

<>

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Alex Fernandez]

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 3:54 PM, rgheck wrote:
> And I guess the results must be much better on some other system than on
> mine since, on mine, much of this is completely unreadable. Attached is what
> I get in 4.3. I have no idea what this is supposed to be, but presumably not
> as is. (This is with Firefox 2.0.0.19 on Fedora 8.)

eLyXer output requires CSS2, which is poorly supported on Firefox 2.
You should try Firefox 3 (which yesterday turned 1 year old by the
way) where it looks much better. What it means is: time to upgrade!

> The forthcoming HTML output from LyX will therefore use png's initially and
> shoot for MathML later. Note that the latter won't be as hard as writing a
> LaTeX to MathML converter (though these do exist), since we already have a
> parsed form of the LaTeX and can output MathML off that tree.

Once it is there it will be nice to have two options for HTML output.
Meanwhile eLyXer will use XHTML and CSS2 which can be rendered
acceptably on modern browsers.

Alex.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-06-17, Alex Fernandez wrote:

 I have updated the CSS file in version 0.27 following Olivier's suggestions:
   http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/

 Please let me know if you like the changes:

   http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/math.html

I like the changes.

But there are problems with the math:

Greek Symbols:
  are needed in roman (upright) and italic shapes
  (available as Mathematical Alphanumeric Symbols or via font-change)
  and in some cases (tensor symbols) sans-serif.

Spaces:
  Separate value and unit by a small space: 1- 1/2 en
-en
2
Fonts:

  The Unicode block mathematical alphanumeric symbols provides style
  variants for Latin and Greek letters and digits. It is to be used for
  mathematical variables where style variations are important
  semantically.
  
  However, only a few fonts support this Unicode Block. Maybe the
  --unicode option could switch to use of Unicode Math symbols
  generally and not only for the spaces.
  
  See [tr25].

  
  Regular text is shown italicized. Variable: length, µ, Speed.
  
  While the statement is true and the behaviour right, the example is
  misleading: 
  
Variables should be one-letter symbols. Using full words like length
and Speed as variables is not recommended.
  
If full words are used as index (s_in, s_out), they should be set
upright (s_\mathrem{in}).

  See [fonts-for-symbols] and [typefaces]

SI units:
  Units must be set upright (and separated from the value by a space).
  Whether they use the math- or text font is not mandated (57 \mathrm{km}
  or or 57 \textrm{km} or 57 \text{km} or \siunit{57}{km}).
  
  See [SI-brochure].
  
Fractions:
  Would it be possible to have a smaller font size for inline fractions?
  
Arrays:
  The brackets are too small. You might use the extendable brackets
  provided by unicode block Miscellaneous Technical (which also
  provides big sum and integral symbols):
  
   ⎡1 2⎤
   ⎢3 4⎥
   ⎣5 6⎦
 
A more comprehensive test case would be the LyX Math Guide.

Günter

References:

[isomath] `isomath: Math for scientists`
ftp://dante.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/isomath/isomath.sty.html
ftp://dante.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/isomath/isomath.sty.pdf

[typefaces] `Typefaces for Symbols in Scientific Manuscripts`:
http://physics.nist.gov/Document/typefaces.pdf

[fonts-for-symbols] `On the use of italic and roman fonts for symbols in
scientific text`, (Revised December 1999):
http://old.iupac.org/standing/idcns/fonts_for_symbols.html

[SI-brochure] `The International System of Units (SI)`:
http://www.bipm.org/en/si/si_brochure/

[tr25] `Unicode Support for Mathematics`, Unicode Technical Report #25:
http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr25/

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Olivier Ripoll]

Alex Fernandez wrote:

Hi,

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:19 AM, Tim
Michelsentimmichel...@gmx-topmail.de wrote:

As example, by modifying line 5 of lyx.css from
   font: x-small serif;
to
   font: small sans-serif;

and then adding the line
   font-family: serif;
to .formula, the text is more web-styled (i.e. it uses sans-serif fonts
(formulas stay in serif) and fonts are a little larger.

Yes,
This kind of modifications incorporate more screen-friendly display.


I have updated the CSS file in version 0.27 following Olivier's suggestions:
  http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/


Actually, I think you could do even better (more challenges) ;-). I 
haven't touched CSS for years, so there might be innacuracies in the 
following ideas.


The LyX user can choose its font-family in the documents settings. I'm 
not sure, but I think it's in the .lyx at the line:


\font_default_family sfdefault

It would be nice if elyxer could somehow parse that. I see several ways 
to do so:


1- maintain 2-3 CSS (one for sans, one for serif, perhaps one for 
monospace) and link to the relevant one.


2- use a CSS with things in common and another one with just the 
differences (in this case, the font-family attribute of the body element).


3- use a CSS for the common stuff (i.e. do not specify the font-family 
in the body element), and have elyxer add to the head

  style type=text/css
  body {
font-family: sans-serif;}
  /style

with the font-family mentionned in the lyx file.

I think solution 3 is by far the most elegant one. And it work on FF3 
and IE8.


It is then also possible to imagine elyxer parsing other attributes:
\paperfontsize 10
is most likely the line for the base size, usually 10, 11 and 12 in 
the settings. That could help setting the base size (x-small, small, 
etc.) However, it might not be that good an idea...


What do you think ?

Best regards,

Olivier

PS: Of course, the .formula change should stay: equations never look 
good with a monospace or a sasn-serif font.




Please let me know if you like the changes:
  http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/math.html

Thanks,

Alex.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Tim Michelsen]

Please let me know if you like the changes:
  http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/math.html

Tiny change, huge improvement. Beautiful.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Murray Eisenberg]

  Please let me know if you like the changes:
http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/math.html
 Tiny change, huge improvement. Beautiful.

I hate to say this, but the target page is a good example of why
converting math in LaTeX (whether originating in LyX or not) to HTML
gives such bad results. Here are a few of the uglies:

In 4.1, the parentheses delimiters should be stretched and not just
one line high.

In 4.2, the x - infty should really go below the lim in the
display. similarly for the lower- and uper-limits on the displayed
summation.

In 4.2, the lower-limit on the integral is too low, and the
upper-limit is much too low.

In 4.3, the same problem with parentheses as before. And the square
root signs' horizontal parts run into the fraction symbol.

In 5.1, the brackets on the arrays need to stretch so as to actually
enclose the array.

In 5.1, the cases symbol following = should not be a vertical bar,
but rather an stretches left-brace.

There's also one issue not with the conversion but with the original
typesetting: in 4.3, the kg units should be set upright, not italic.

-- 
  Murray Eisenberg   Internet:  mur...@math.umass.edu
  Mathematics  Statistics Dept.Voice:  413-545-2859 (W)
  University of Massachusetts   413-549-1020 (H)
  Amherst, MA 01003   Fax:  413-545-1801

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-06-17, Alex Fernandez wrote:

 I have updated the CSS file in version 0.27 following Olivier's suggestions:
   http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/

 Please let me know if you like the changes:

   http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/math.html

I like the changes.

But there are problems with the math:

Greek Symbols:
  are needed in roman (upright) and italic shapes
  (available as Mathematical Alphanumeric Symbols or via font-change)
  and in some cases (tensor symbols) sans-serif.

Spaces:
  Separate value and unit by a small space: 1- 1/2 en
-en
2
Fonts:

  The Unicode block mathematical alphanumeric symbols provides style
  variants for Latin and Greek letters and digits. It is to be used for
  mathematical variables where style variations are important
  semantically.
  
  However, only a few fonts support this Unicode Block. Maybe the
  --unicode option could switch to use of Unicode Math symbols
  generally and not only for the spaces.
  
  See [tr25].

  
  Regular text is shown italicized. Variable: length, µ, Speed.
  
  While the statement is true and the behaviour right, the example is
  misleading: 
  
Variables should be one-letter symbols. Using full words like length
and Speed as variables is not recommended.
  
If full words are used as index (s_in, s_out), they should be set
upright (s_\mathrem{in}).

  See [fonts-for-symbols] and [typefaces]

SI units:
  Units must be set upright (and separated from the value by a space).
  Whether they use the math- or text font is not mandated (57 \mathrm{km}
  or or 57 \textrm{km} or 57 \text{km} or \siunit{57}{km}).
  
  See [SI-brochure].
  
Fractions:
  Would it be possible to have a smaller font size for inline fractions?
  
Arrays:
  The brackets are too small. You might use the extendable brackets
  provided by unicode block Miscellaneous Technical (which also
  provides big sum and integral symbols):
  
   ⎡1 2⎤
   ⎢3 4⎥
   ⎣5 6⎦
 
A more comprehensive test case would be the LyX Math Guide.

Günter

References:

[isomath] `isomath: Math for scientists`
ftp://dante.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/isomath/isomath.sty.html
ftp://dante.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/isomath/isomath.sty.pdf

[typefaces] `Typefaces for Symbols in Scientific Manuscripts`:
http://physics.nist.gov/Document/typefaces.pdf

[fonts-for-symbols] `On the use of italic and roman fonts for symbols in
scientific text`, (Revised December 1999):
http://old.iupac.org/standing/idcns/fonts_for_symbols.html

[SI-brochure] `The International System of Units (SI)`:
http://www.bipm.org/en/si/si_brochure/

[tr25] `Unicode Support for Mathematics`, Unicode Technical Report #25:
http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr25/

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Olivier Ripoll]

Alex Fernandez wrote:

Hi,

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:19 AM, Tim
Michelsentimmichel...@gmx-topmail.de wrote:

As example, by modifying line 5 of lyx.css from
   font: x-small serif;
to
   font: small sans-serif;

and then adding the line
   font-family: serif;
to .formula, the text is more web-styled (i.e. it uses sans-serif fonts
(formulas stay in serif) and fonts are a little larger.

Yes,
This kind of modifications incorporate more screen-friendly display.


I have updated the CSS file in version 0.27 following Olivier's suggestions:
  http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/


Actually, I think you could do even better (more challenges) ;-). I 
haven't touched CSS for years, so there might be innacuracies in the 
following ideas.


The LyX user can choose its font-family in the documents settings. I'm 
not sure, but I think it's in the .lyx at the line:


\font_default_family sfdefault

It would be nice if elyxer could somehow parse that. I see several ways 
to do so:


1- maintain 2-3 CSS (one for sans, one for serif, perhaps one for 
monospace) and link to the relevant one.


2- use a CSS with things in common and another one with just the 
differences (in this case, the font-family attribute of the body element).


3- use a CSS for the common stuff (i.e. do not specify the font-family 
in the body element), and have elyxer add to the head

  style type=text/css
  body {
font-family: sans-serif;}
  /style

with the font-family mentionned in the lyx file.

I think solution 3 is by far the most elegant one. And it work on FF3 
and IE8.


It is then also possible to imagine elyxer parsing other attributes:
\paperfontsize 10
is most likely the line for the base size, usually 10, 11 and 12 in 
the settings. That could help setting the base size (x-small, small, 
etc.) However, it might not be that good an idea...


What do you think ?

Best regards,

Olivier

PS: Of course, the .formula change should stay: equations never look 
good with a monospace or a sasn-serif font.




Please let me know if you like the changes:
  http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/math.html

Thanks,

Alex.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Tim Michelsen]

Please let me know if you like the changes:
  http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/math.html

Tiny change, huge improvement. Beautiful.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Murray Eisenberg]

  Please let me know if you like the changes:
http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/math.html
 Tiny change, huge improvement. Beautiful.

I hate to say this, but the target page is a good example of why
converting math in LaTeX (whether originating in LyX or not) to HTML
gives such bad results. Here are a few of the uglies:

In 4.1, the parentheses delimiters should be stretched and not just
one line high.

In 4.2, the x - infty should really go below the lim in the
display. similarly for the lower- and uper-limits on the displayed
summation.

In 4.2, the lower-limit on the integral is too low, and the
upper-limit is much too low.

In 4.3, the same problem with parentheses as before. And the square
root signs' horizontal parts run into the fraction symbol.

In 5.1, the brackets on the arrays need to stretch so as to actually
enclose the array.

In 5.1, the cases symbol following = should not be a vertical bar,
but rather an stretches left-brace.

There's also one issue not with the conversion but with the original
typesetting: in 4.3, the kg units should be set upright, not italic.

-- 
  Murray Eisenberg   Internet:  mur...@math.umass.edu
  Mathematics  Statistics Dept.Voice:  413-545-2859 (W)
  University of Massachusetts   413-549-1020 (H)
  Amherst, MA 01003   Fax:  413-545-1801

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-06-17, Alex Fernandez wrote:

> I have updated the CSS file in version 0.27 following Olivier's suggestions:
>   http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/

> Please let me know if you like the changes:

>   http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/math.html

I like the changes.

But there are problems with the math:

Greek Symbols:
  are needed in roman (upright) and italic shapes
  (available as "Mathematical Alphanumeric Symbols" or via font-change)
  and in some cases (tensor symbols) sans-serif.

Spaces:
  Separate value and unit by a small space: 1-> 1/2 en
-en
2
Fonts:

  The Unicode block mathematical alphanumeric symbols provides style
  variants for Latin and Greek letters and digits. It is "to be used for
  mathematical variables where style variations are important
  semantically".
  
  However, only a few fonts support this Unicode Block. Maybe the
  --unicode option could switch to use of Unicode Math symbols
  generally and not only for the spaces.
  
  See [tr25].

  
  "Regular text is shown italicized. Variable: length, µ, Speed."
  
  While the statement is true and the behaviour right, the example is
  misleading: 
  
Variables should be one-letter symbols. Using full words like length
and Speed as variables is not recommended.
  
If full words are used as index (s_in, s_out), they should be set
upright (s_\mathrem{in}).

  See [fonts-for-symbols] and [typefaces]

SI units:
  Units must be set upright (and separated from the value by a space).
  Whether they use the math- or text font is not mandated (57 \mathrm{km}
  or or 57 \textrm{km} or 57 \text{km} or \siunit{57}{km}).
  
  See [SI-brochure].
  
Fractions:
  Would it be possible to have a smaller font size for inline fractions?
  
Arrays:
  The brackets are too small. You might use the "extendable" brackets
  provided by unicode block Miscellaneous Technical (which also
  provides big sum and integral symbols):
  
   ⎡1 2⎤
   ⎢3 4⎥
   ⎣5 6⎦
 
A more comprehensive test case would be the LyX Math Guide.

Günter

References:

[isomath] `isomath: Math for scientists`
ftp://dante.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/isomath/isomath.sty.html
ftp://dante.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/isomath/isomath.sty.pdf

[typefaces] `Typefaces for Symbols in Scientific Manuscripts`:
http://physics.nist.gov/Document/typefaces.pdf

[fonts-for-symbols] `On the use of italic and roman fonts for symbols in
scientific text`, (Revised December 1999):
http://old.iupac.org/standing/idcns/fonts_for_symbols.html

[SI-brochure] `The International System of Units (SI)`:
http://www.bipm.org/en/si/si_brochure/

[tr25] `Unicode Support for Mathematics`, Unicode Technical Report #25:
http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr25/

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Olivier Ripoll]

Alex Fernandez wrote:

Hi,

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:19 AM, Tim
Michelsen wrote:

As example, by modifying line 5 of lyx.css from
   font: x-small serif;
to
   font: small sans-serif;

and then adding the line
   font-family: serif;
to ".formula", the text is more web-styled (i.e. it uses sans-serif fonts
(formulas stay in serif) and fonts are a little larger.

Yes,
This kind of modifications incorporate more screen-friendly display.


I have updated the CSS file in version 0.27 following Olivier's suggestions:
  http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/


Actually, I think you could do even better (more challenges) ;-). I 
haven't touched CSS for years, so there might be innacuracies in the 
following ideas.


The LyX user can choose its font-family in the documents settings. I'm 
not sure, but I think it's in the .lyx at the line:


\font_default_family sfdefault

It would be nice if elyxer could somehow parse that. I see several ways 
to do so:


1- maintain 2-3 CSS (one for sans, one for serif, perhaps one for 
monospace) and link to the relevant one.


2- use a CSS with things in common and another one with just the 
differences (in this case, the font-family attribute of the body element).


3- use a CSS for the common stuff (i.e. do not specify the font-family 
in the body element), and have elyxer add to the head

  
  body {
font-family: sans-serif;}
  

with the font-family mentionned in the lyx file.

I think solution 3 is by far the most elegant one. And it work on FF3 
and IE8.


It is then also possible to imagine elyxer parsing other attributes:
\paperfontsize 10
is most likely the line for the "base size", usually 10, 11 and 12 in 
the settings. That could help setting the base size (x-small, small, 
etc.) However, it might not be that good an idea...


What do you think ?

Best regards,

Olivier

PS: Of course, the .formula change should stay: equations never look 
good with a monospace or a sasn-serif font.




Please let me know if you like the changes:
  http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/math.html

Thanks,

Alex.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Tim Michelsen]

Please let me know if you like the changes:
  http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/math.html

Tiny change, huge improvement. Beautiful.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Murray Eisenberg]

> > Please let me know if you like the changes:
> >   http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/math.html
> Tiny change, huge improvement. Beautiful.

I hate to say this, but the target page is a good example of why
converting math in LaTeX (whether originating in LyX or not) to HTML
gives such bad results. Here are a few of the "uglies":

In 4.1, the parentheses delimiters should be stretched and not just
one line high.

In 4.2, the x -> infty should really go below the lim in the
display. similarly for the lower- and uper-limits on the displayed
summation.

In 4.2, the lower-limit on the integral is too low, and the
upper-limit is much too low.

In 4.3, the same problem with parentheses as before. And the square
root signs' horizontal parts run into the fraction symbol.

In 5.1, the brackets on the arrays need to stretch so as to actually
"enclose" the array.

In 5.1, the "cases" symbol following = should not be a vertical bar,
but rather an stretches left-brace.

There's also one issue not with the conversion but with the original
typesetting: in 4.3, the kg units should be set upright, not italic.

-- 
  Murray Eisenberg   Internet:  mur...@math.umass.edu
  Mathematics & Statistics Dept.Voice:  413-545-2859 (W)
  University of Massachusetts   413-549-1020 (H)
  Amherst, MA 01003   Fax:  413-545-1801

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-06-15, Alex Fernandez wrote:
...
 ... let us see if we can get constructive and get
 something out of this discussion.

 What we can actually do is: you, or someone else who has taken the
 trouble to make the output look good on their favorite platform, can
 send me your CSS files (or a patch against mine). Then I can try to
 blend those in and still keep the sane look on Debian. Probably we can
 find a combination of fonts and sizes that look good on the most
 popular platforms. We can do it; we have already got the character set
 mostly right thanks to a similar effort by another user. Now is time
 for good typography!

You could also set up a repository for user-contributed CSS styles.

Günter

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Olivier Ripoll]

Tim Michelsen wrote:

Hello,
I have see recten posts about eLyxer and become curious.

I would like to suggest to edit the standard stylesheet provided by
http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/lyx.css

The text from the example is very difficult to read.


very difficult to read: you are exaggerating, which is not a good way 
to start a sane discussion.


To my humble opinion, the generated html should follow the tradition of 
Lyx in creating readable, user-friedly and accessible documents.


I have transformed several of my documents with elyxer, and I do not see 
any of those being as bad as the words you use suggest. Perhaps that's 
due to your browser: IE8 does not render the page as good as FF3.



Here are some examples for web pages (personal selection):
* http://www.nvpit.nl/cms/
* http://robcomm.net/
* http://www.swaroopch.com/notes/Python

some hints on web typography:
* 
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/03/18/10-principles-for-readable-web-typography/


This one is a good reference.
Elyxer clearly satisfies points 1,2,4,6,8,9
Point 7 is not relevant: that the content of the text.
Point 3 could be tweaked (see below)
Point 5 could be tweaked, but looks satisfying to me
Point 10 is more related to web site itself. Typically, you will choose 
the margins with the CSS or include the article within a bigger page. 
But default could be indeed changed. Margins depend a lot on the browser 
window size, the screen size...


* http://www.csarven.ca/web-typography


This one is quite funny: It is very difficult to read with its jagged 
right-border (due to fonts too large with respect to the column width). 
It breaks the flow of reading, making each line single within one 
paragraph. It also lacks depth in its hierarchy: there seems to be only 
two types of text: standard and and H2/H3 type. Bad example.


Honestly, if you were to actually say _what_ you think is wrong, then 
perhaps Alex could change it:
For instance, in Firefox, increasing a little the spacing above/below 
displayed equations could make them pop out better. To a lesser extent, 
that could be done with figures, but they are already coming quite nice 
out-of the text thanks to the frame the frame.


Typography rules are more guidelines than rules anyway: Newspapers are 
written with different rules (and different fonts... serif ones). 
Scientific journals use yet another. Magazines, another. Theatre plays, 
another. Cinema scripts, another. Human science, another. All are on one 
media however: paper. Rules depend mostly on the content. The rules 
coming with elyxer look like the transcription to the web on scientific 
papers' rules. When you use elyxer to transcribe a paper with 30+ 
equations (not counting the inline ones), it looks great and very 
easy to read (on FF3 on XP at least). I say that because I have one now 
opened as I write.


Best regards,

Olivier

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-06-16, Olivier Ripoll wrote:

 very difficult to read: you are exaggerating, which is not a good way 
 to start a sane discussion.

Agreed.

 http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/03/18/10-principles-for-readable-web-typography/

 This one is a good reference.

...

 * http://www.csarven.ca/web-typography

 This one is quite funny: It is very difficult to read with its jagged 
 right-border (due to fonts too large with respect to the column width). 
 It breaks the flow of reading, making each line single within one 
 paragraph. 

In my browser, this reference is shown with a larger column size
(in letters/line) than the smashingmagazine.

The collumn width changes with the size of the browser window, so
enlarging the window (or closing the bookmarks side bar) should solve
this issue for you too:

 ... Margins depend a lot on the browser 
 window size, the screen size...

The jagged right border (raggedright instead of block alignment) is actually
recommended in web design (and also used in example one).


 It also lacks depth in its hierarchy: there seems to be only 
 two types of text: standard and and H2/H3 type. 

Title + one section level seems appropriate for an article of this size
for me.

 Bad example.

Dont't think so. Rather an example to show that taste and perception
differs a lot.

 Rules depend mostly on the content. The rules coming with elyxer look
 like the transcription to the web on scientific papers' rules. When you
 use elyxer to transcribe a paper with 30+ equations (not counting the
 inline ones), it looks great and very easy to read (on FF3 on XP at
 least). 

Agreed.

regards

Günter

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Tim Michelsen]

Dear all and especially Alex!

  very difficult to read: you are exaggerating, which is not a good way 
  to start a sane discussion.
 
 Agreed.
I deeply appologize for my strong words. They were not intended to offence.
You surely put a considerable amount of time into this.
Sorry.

I may coment more later on.

Best regards,
Timmie

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Olivier Ripoll]

Guenter Milde wrote:

On 2009-06-15, Alex Fernandez wrote:
...

... let us see if we can get constructive and get
something out of this discussion.



What we can actually do is: you, or someone else who has taken the
trouble to make the output look good on their favorite platform, can
send me your CSS files (or a patch against mine). Then I can try to
blend those in and still keep the sane look on Debian. Probably we can
find a combination of fonts and sizes that look good on the most
popular platforms. We can do it; we have already got the character set
mostly right thanks to a similar effort by another user. Now is time
for good typography!


You could also set up a repository for user-contributed CSS styles.


It seems my previous post got lost, so I am reposting (with little 
changes), but without attaching the CSS file.


As example, by modifying line 5 of lyx.css from
font: x-small serif;
to
font: small sans-serif;

and then adding the line
font-family: serif;
to .formula, the text is more web-styled (i.e. it uses sans-serif 
fonts (formulas stay in serif) and fonts are a little larger.


Best regards,

Olivier

PS: For windows users without python installed, modify the lyx-html 
line (see recent discussions)

from:
python $$s/scripts/elyxer.py $$i $$o
to:
python $$s/scripts/elyxer.py --css=lyx_sans.css $$i $$o

and drop the modified CSS (saved here as lyx_sans.css) with the html file.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[rgheck]

Olivier Ripoll wrote:

Tim Michelsen wrote:

Hello,
I have see recten posts about eLyxer and become curious.

I would like to suggest to edit the standard stylesheet provided by
http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/lyx.css

The text from the example is very difficult to read.


very difficult to read: you are exaggerating, which is not a good 
way to start a sane discussion.


Nor is starting a flame war a good way to continue one. Please try to 
keep this list civil.


Richard

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Alex Fernandez]

Hi again,

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:57 AM, Tim
Michelsentimmichel...@gmx-topmail.de wrote:
 Dear all and especially Alex!
 I deeply appologize for my strong words. They were not intended to offence.

No need to apologize, they were taken in good sport. You are obviously
not trying to offend anyone but to improve eLyXer. A good shake-up was
probably needed to improve typography, which on some browsers is
indeed lacking. You tried to help with your links too; the only
missing piece was perhaps some (CSS) code accompanying your words and
showing your ideas. But Olivier was kind enough to supply that.

 You surely put a considerable amount of time into this.
 Sorry.

Do not worry, I (and surely the rest) have a lot of fun using and
developing eLyXer. My ultimate goal is that people (me included) find
it useful, so I would just encourage you to contribute any further
ideas you have.

Alex.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Tim Michelsen]

It seems my previous post got lost, so I am reposting (with little 
changes), but without attaching the CSS file.


As example, by modifying line 5 of lyx.css from
font: x-small serif;
to
font: small sans-serif;

and then adding the line
font-family: serif;
to .formula, the text is more web-styled (i.e. it uses sans-serif 
fonts (formulas stay in serif) and fonts are a little larger.

Yes,
This kind of modifications incorporate more screen-friendly display.

Compare it to the beamer output versus beamer notes.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Alex Fernandez]

Hi,

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:19 AM, Tim
Michelsentimmichel...@gmx-topmail.de wrote:
 As example, by modifying line 5 of lyx.css from
    font: x-small serif;
 to
    font: small sans-serif;

 and then adding the line
    font-family: serif;
 to .formula, the text is more web-styled (i.e. it uses sans-serif fonts
 (formulas stay in serif) and fonts are a little larger.

 Yes,
 This kind of modifications incorporate more screen-friendly display.

I have updated the CSS file in version 0.27 following Olivier's suggestions:
  http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/

Please let me know if you like the changes:
  http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/math.html

Thanks,

Alex.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-06-15, Alex Fernandez wrote:
...
 ... let us see if we can get constructive and get
 something out of this discussion.

 What we can actually do is: you, or someone else who has taken the
 trouble to make the output look good on their favorite platform, can
 send me your CSS files (or a patch against mine). Then I can try to
 blend those in and still keep the sane look on Debian. Probably we can
 find a combination of fonts and sizes that look good on the most
 popular platforms. We can do it; we have already got the character set
 mostly right thanks to a similar effort by another user. Now is time
 for good typography!

You could also set up a repository for user-contributed CSS styles.

Günter

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Olivier Ripoll]

Tim Michelsen wrote:

Hello,
I have see recten posts about eLyxer and become curious.

I would like to suggest to edit the standard stylesheet provided by
http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/lyx.css

The text from the example is very difficult to read.


very difficult to read: you are exaggerating, which is not a good way 
to start a sane discussion.


To my humble opinion, the generated html should follow the tradition of 
Lyx in creating readable, user-friedly and accessible documents.


I have transformed several of my documents with elyxer, and I do not see 
any of those being as bad as the words you use suggest. Perhaps that's 
due to your browser: IE8 does not render the page as good as FF3.



Here are some examples for web pages (personal selection):
* http://www.nvpit.nl/cms/
* http://robcomm.net/
* http://www.swaroopch.com/notes/Python

some hints on web typography:
* 
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/03/18/10-principles-for-readable-web-typography/


This one is a good reference.
Elyxer clearly satisfies points 1,2,4,6,8,9
Point 7 is not relevant: that the content of the text.
Point 3 could be tweaked (see below)
Point 5 could be tweaked, but looks satisfying to me
Point 10 is more related to web site itself. Typically, you will choose 
the margins with the CSS or include the article within a bigger page. 
But default could be indeed changed. Margins depend a lot on the browser 
window size, the screen size...


* http://www.csarven.ca/web-typography


This one is quite funny: It is very difficult to read with its jagged 
right-border (due to fonts too large with respect to the column width). 
It breaks the flow of reading, making each line single within one 
paragraph. It also lacks depth in its hierarchy: there seems to be only 
two types of text: standard and and H2/H3 type. Bad example.


Honestly, if you were to actually say _what_ you think is wrong, then 
perhaps Alex could change it:
For instance, in Firefox, increasing a little the spacing above/below 
displayed equations could make them pop out better. To a lesser extent, 
that could be done with figures, but they are already coming quite nice 
out-of the text thanks to the frame the frame.


Typography rules are more guidelines than rules anyway: Newspapers are 
written with different rules (and different fonts... serif ones). 
Scientific journals use yet another. Magazines, another. Theatre plays, 
another. Cinema scripts, another. Human science, another. All are on one 
media however: paper. Rules depend mostly on the content. The rules 
coming with elyxer look like the transcription to the web on scientific 
papers' rules. When you use elyxer to transcribe a paper with 30+ 
equations (not counting the inline ones), it looks great and very 
easy to read (on FF3 on XP at least). I say that because I have one now 
opened as I write.


Best regards,

Olivier

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-06-16, Olivier Ripoll wrote:

 very difficult to read: you are exaggerating, which is not a good way 
 to start a sane discussion.

Agreed.

 http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/03/18/10-principles-for-readable-web-typography/

 This one is a good reference.

...

 * http://www.csarven.ca/web-typography

 This one is quite funny: It is very difficult to read with its jagged 
 right-border (due to fonts too large with respect to the column width). 
 It breaks the flow of reading, making each line single within one 
 paragraph. 

In my browser, this reference is shown with a larger column size
(in letters/line) than the smashingmagazine.

The collumn width changes with the size of the browser window, so
enlarging the window (or closing the bookmarks side bar) should solve
this issue for you too:

 ... Margins depend a lot on the browser 
 window size, the screen size...

The jagged right border (raggedright instead of block alignment) is actually
recommended in web design (and also used in example one).


 It also lacks depth in its hierarchy: there seems to be only 
 two types of text: standard and and H2/H3 type. 

Title + one section level seems appropriate for an article of this size
for me.

 Bad example.

Dont't think so. Rather an example to show that taste and perception
differs a lot.

 Rules depend mostly on the content. The rules coming with elyxer look
 like the transcription to the web on scientific papers' rules. When you
 use elyxer to transcribe a paper with 30+ equations (not counting the
 inline ones), it looks great and very easy to read (on FF3 on XP at
 least). 

Agreed.

regards

Günter

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Tim Michelsen]

Dear all and especially Alex!

  very difficult to read: you are exaggerating, which is not a good way 
  to start a sane discussion.
 
 Agreed.
I deeply appologize for my strong words. They were not intended to offence.
You surely put a considerable amount of time into this.
Sorry.

I may coment more later on.

Best regards,
Timmie

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Olivier Ripoll]

Guenter Milde wrote:

On 2009-06-15, Alex Fernandez wrote:
...

... let us see if we can get constructive and get
something out of this discussion.



What we can actually do is: you, or someone else who has taken the
trouble to make the output look good on their favorite platform, can
send me your CSS files (or a patch against mine). Then I can try to
blend those in and still keep the sane look on Debian. Probably we can
find a combination of fonts and sizes that look good on the most
popular platforms. We can do it; we have already got the character set
mostly right thanks to a similar effort by another user. Now is time
for good typography!


You could also set up a repository for user-contributed CSS styles.


It seems my previous post got lost, so I am reposting (with little 
changes), but without attaching the CSS file.


As example, by modifying line 5 of lyx.css from
font: x-small serif;
to
font: small sans-serif;

and then adding the line
font-family: serif;
to .formula, the text is more web-styled (i.e. it uses sans-serif 
fonts (formulas stay in serif) and fonts are a little larger.


Best regards,

Olivier

PS: For windows users without python installed, modify the lyx-html 
line (see recent discussions)

from:
python $$s/scripts/elyxer.py $$i $$o
to:
python $$s/scripts/elyxer.py --css=lyx_sans.css $$i $$o

and drop the modified CSS (saved here as lyx_sans.css) with the html file.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[rgheck]

Olivier Ripoll wrote:

Tim Michelsen wrote:

Hello,
I have see recten posts about eLyxer and become curious.

I would like to suggest to edit the standard stylesheet provided by
http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/lyx.css

The text from the example is very difficult to read.


very difficult to read: you are exaggerating, which is not a good 
way to start a sane discussion.


Nor is starting a flame war a good way to continue one. Please try to 
keep this list civil.


Richard

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Alex Fernandez]

Hi again,

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:57 AM, Tim
Michelsentimmichel...@gmx-topmail.de wrote:
 Dear all and especially Alex!
 I deeply appologize for my strong words. They were not intended to offence.

No need to apologize, they were taken in good sport. You are obviously
not trying to offend anyone but to improve eLyXer. A good shake-up was
probably needed to improve typography, which on some browsers is
indeed lacking. You tried to help with your links too; the only
missing piece was perhaps some (CSS) code accompanying your words and
showing your ideas. But Olivier was kind enough to supply that.

 You surely put a considerable amount of time into this.
 Sorry.

Do not worry, I (and surely the rest) have a lot of fun using and
developing eLyXer. My ultimate goal is that people (me included) find
it useful, so I would just encourage you to contribute any further
ideas you have.

Alex.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Tim Michelsen]

It seems my previous post got lost, so I am reposting (with little 
changes), but without attaching the CSS file.


As example, by modifying line 5 of lyx.css from
font: x-small serif;
to
font: small sans-serif;

and then adding the line
font-family: serif;
to .formula, the text is more web-styled (i.e. it uses sans-serif 
fonts (formulas stay in serif) and fonts are a little larger.

Yes,
This kind of modifications incorporate more screen-friendly display.

Compare it to the beamer output versus beamer notes.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Alex Fernandez]

Hi,

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:19 AM, Tim
Michelsentimmichel...@gmx-topmail.de wrote:
 As example, by modifying line 5 of lyx.css from
    font: x-small serif;
 to
    font: small sans-serif;

 and then adding the line
    font-family: serif;
 to .formula, the text is more web-styled (i.e. it uses sans-serif fonts
 (formulas stay in serif) and fonts are a little larger.

 Yes,
 This kind of modifications incorporate more screen-friendly display.

I have updated the CSS file in version 0.27 following Olivier's suggestions:
  http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/

Please let me know if you like the changes:
  http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/math.html

Thanks,

Alex.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-06-15, Alex Fernandez wrote:
...
> ... let us see if we can get constructive and get
> something out of this discussion.

> What we can actually do is: you, or someone else who has taken the
> trouble to make the output look good on their favorite platform, can
> send me your CSS files (or a patch against mine). Then I can try to
> blend those in and still keep the sane look on Debian. Probably we can
> find a combination of fonts and sizes that look good on the most
> popular platforms. We can do it; we have already got the character set
> mostly right thanks to a similar effort by another user. Now is time
> for good typography!

You could also set up a repository for user-contributed CSS styles.

Günter

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Olivier Ripoll]

Tim Michelsen wrote:

Hello,
I have see recten posts about eLyxer and become curious.

I would like to suggest to edit the standard stylesheet provided by
http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/lyx.css

The text from the example is very difficult to read.


"very difficult to read": you are exaggerating, which is not a good way 
to start a sane discussion.


To my humble opinion, the generated html should follow the tradition of 
Lyx in creating readable, user-friedly and accessible documents.


I have transformed several of my documents with elyxer, and I do not see 
any of those being as bad as the words you use suggest. Perhaps that's 
due to your browser: IE8 does not render the page as good as FF3.



Here are some examples for web pages (personal selection):
* http://www.nvpit.nl/cms/
* http://robcomm.net/
* http://www.swaroopch.com/notes/Python

some hints on web typography:
* 
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/03/18/10-principles-for-readable-web-typography/


This one is a good reference.
Elyxer clearly satisfies points 1,2,4,6,8,9
Point 7 is not relevant: that the content of the text.
Point 3 could be tweaked (see below)
Point 5 could be tweaked, but looks satisfying to me
Point 10 is more related to web site itself. Typically, you will choose 
the margins with the CSS or include the article within a bigger page. 
But default could be indeed changed. Margins depend a lot on the browser 
window size, the screen size...


* http://www.csarven.ca/web-typography


This one is quite funny: It is "very difficult to read" with its jagged 
right-border (due to fonts too large with respect to the column width). 
It breaks the flow of reading, making each line "single" within one 
paragraph. It also lacks depth in its hierarchy: there seems to be only 
two types of text: standard and and H2/H3 type. Bad example.


Honestly, if you were to actually say _what_ you think is wrong, then 
perhaps Alex could change it:
For instance, in Firefox, increasing a little the spacing above/below 
displayed equations could make them pop out better. To a lesser extent, 
that could be done with figures, but they are already coming quite nice 
out-of the text thanks to the frame the frame.


Typography rules are more guidelines than rules anyway: Newspapers are 
written with different rules (and different fonts... serif ones). 
Scientific journals use yet another. Magazines, another. Theatre plays, 
another. Cinema scripts, another. Human science, another. All are on one 
media however: paper. "Rules" depend mostly on the content. The rules 
coming with elyxer look like the transcription to the web on scientific 
papers' rules. When you use elyxer to transcribe a paper with 30+ 
equations (not counting the inline ones), it looks "great" and "very 
easy to read" (on FF3 on XP at least). I say that because I have one now 
opened as I write.


Best regards,

Olivier

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-06-16, Olivier Ripoll wrote:

> "very difficult to read": you are exaggerating, which is not a good way 
> to start a sane discussion.

Agreed.

>> http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/03/18/10-principles-for-readable-web-typography/

> This one is a good reference.

...

>> * http://www.csarven.ca/web-typography

> This one is quite funny: It is "very difficult to read" with its jagged 
> right-border (due to fonts too large with respect to the column width). 
> It breaks the flow of reading, making each line "single" within one 
> paragraph. 

In my browser, this reference is shown with a larger column size
(in letters/line) than the smashingmagazine.

The collumn width changes with the size of the browser window, so
enlarging the window (or closing the bookmarks side bar) should solve
this issue for you too:

> ... Margins depend a lot on the browser 
> window size, the screen size...

The jagged right border (raggedright instead of block alignment) is actually
recommended in web design (and also used in example one).


> It also lacks depth in its hierarchy: there seems to be only 
> two types of text: standard and and H2/H3 type. 

Title + one section level seems appropriate for an article of this size
for me.

> Bad example.

Dont't think so. Rather an example to show that taste and perception
differs a lot.

> "Rules" depend mostly on the content. The rules coming with elyxer look
> like the transcription to the web on scientific papers' rules. When you
> use elyxer to transcribe a paper with 30+ equations (not counting the
> inline ones), it looks "great" and "very easy to read" (on FF3 on XP at
> least). 

Agreed.

regards

Günter

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Tim Michelsen]

Dear all and especially Alex!

> > "very difficult to read": you are exaggerating, which is not a good way 
> > to start a sane discussion.
> 
> Agreed.
I deeply appologize for my strong words. They were not intended to offence.
You surely put a considerable amount of time into this.
Sorry.

I may coment more later on.

Best regards,
Timmie

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Olivier Ripoll]

Guenter Milde wrote:

On 2009-06-15, Alex Fernandez wrote:
...

... let us see if we can get constructive and get
something out of this discussion.



What we can actually do is: you, or someone else who has taken the
trouble to make the output look good on their favorite platform, can
send me your CSS files (or a patch against mine). Then I can try to
blend those in and still keep the sane look on Debian. Probably we can
find a combination of fonts and sizes that look good on the most
popular platforms. We can do it; we have already got the character set
mostly right thanks to a similar effort by another user. Now is time
for good typography!


You could also set up a repository for user-contributed CSS styles.


It seems my previous post got lost, so I am reposting (with little 
changes), but without attaching the CSS file.


As example, by modifying line 5 of lyx.css from
font: x-small serif;
to
font: small sans-serif;

and then adding the line
font-family: serif;
to ".formula", the text is more web-styled (i.e. it uses sans-serif 
fonts (formulas stay in serif) and fonts are a little larger.


Best regards,

Olivier

PS: For windows users without python installed, modify the lyx->html 
line (see recent discussions)

from:
python $$s/scripts/elyxer.py $$i $$o
to:
python $$s/scripts/elyxer.py --css=lyx_sans.css $$i $$o

and drop the modified CSS (saved here as "lyx_sans.css") with the html file.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[rgheck]

Olivier Ripoll wrote:

Tim Michelsen wrote:

Hello,
I have see recten posts about eLyxer and become curious.

I would like to suggest to edit the standard stylesheet provided by
http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/lyx.css

The text from the example is very difficult to read.


"very difficult to read": you are exaggerating, which is not a good 
way to start a sane discussion.


Nor is starting a flame war a good way to continue one. Please try to 
keep this list civil.


Richard

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Alex Fernandez]

Hi again,

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:57 AM, Tim
Michelsen wrote:
> Dear all and especially Alex!
> I deeply appologize for my strong words. They were not intended to offence.

No need to apologize, they were taken in good sport. You are obviously
not trying to offend anyone but to improve eLyXer. A good shake-up was
probably needed to improve typography, which on some browsers is
indeed lacking. You tried to help with your links too; the only
missing piece was perhaps some (CSS) code accompanying your words and
showing your ideas. But Olivier was kind enough to supply that.

> You surely put a considerable amount of time into this.
> Sorry.

Do not worry, I (and surely the rest) have a lot of fun using and
developing eLyXer. My ultimate goal is that people (me included) find
it useful, so I would just encourage you to contribute any further
ideas you have.

Alex.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Tim Michelsen]

It seems my previous post got lost, so I am reposting (with little 
changes), but without attaching the CSS file.


As example, by modifying line 5 of lyx.css from
font: x-small serif;
to
font: small sans-serif;

and then adding the line
font-family: serif;
to ".formula", the text is more web-styled (i.e. it uses sans-serif 
fonts (formulas stay in serif) and fonts are a little larger.

Yes,
This kind of modifications incorporate more screen-friendly display.

Compare it to the beamer output versus beamer notes.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Alex Fernandez]

Hi,

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:19 AM, Tim
Michelsen wrote:
>> As example, by modifying line 5 of lyx.css from
>>    font: x-small serif;
>> to
>>    font: small sans-serif;
>>
>> and then adding the line
>>    font-family: serif;
>> to ".formula", the text is more web-styled (i.e. it uses sans-serif fonts
>> (formulas stay in serif) and fonts are a little larger.
>
> Yes,
> This kind of modifications incorporate more screen-friendly display.

I have updated the CSS file in version 0.27 following Olivier's suggestions:
  http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/

Please let me know if you like the changes:
  http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/math.html

Thanks,

Alex.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Alex Fernandez]

Hi Tim,

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Tim
Michelsentimmichel...@gmx-topmail.de wrote:
 I would like to suggest to edit the standard stylesheet provided by
 http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/lyx.css

The CSS you link is provided as a service to the community; users are
encouraged to change it on their documents with the --css option.

 To my humble opinion, the generated html should follow the tradition of Lyx
 in creating readable, user-friedly and accessible documents.

Yes, some thought has been given to that question. Unfortunately
producing usable output is much harder than would look at first sight
(or that should be); and getting it right for every browser on every
platform is not trivial. Font availability, scaling, etc. all change
when you switch platforms or even browsers. Many popular sites have
given up and just offer different stylesheets depending on the
browser, something which is not an option here.

You can see some examples at:
  http://browsershots.org/http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/math.html
I am using Firefox on Debian, and you can see that it looks great (or
at least I like it). On Windows however Firefox looks quite ugly:
fonts are not pretty. IE 7 is a bit ugly but tolerable.

 Here are some examples for web pages (personal selection):
 * http://www.nvpit.nl/cms/
 * http://robcomm.net/
 * http://www.swaroopch.com/notes/Python

Thanks, those are nice. Unfortunately they are not immediately useful.
For one thing they can be judged on personal opinion and taste. But
the real problem is that they would probably suffer from
cross-platform issues as well. Actually I see the first one with fonts
too small and the second one too large.

 some hints on web typography:
 http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/03/18/10-principles-for-readable-web-typography/
 * http://www.csarven.ca/web-typography

Same problems. But let us see if we can get constructive and get
something out of this discussion.

What we can actually do is: you, or someone else who has taken the
trouble to make the output look good on their favorite platform, can
send me your CSS files (or a patch against mine). Then I can try to
blend those in and still keep the sane look on Debian. Probably we can
find a combination of fonts and sizes that look good on the most
popular platforms. We can do it; we have already got the character set
mostly right thanks to a similar effort by another user. Now is time
for good typography!

Any takers?

Thanks,

Alex.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Alex Fernandez]

Hi Tim,

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Tim
Michelsentimmichel...@gmx-topmail.de wrote:
 I would like to suggest to edit the standard stylesheet provided by
 http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/lyx.css

The CSS you link is provided as a service to the community; users are
encouraged to change it on their documents with the --css option.

 To my humble opinion, the generated html should follow the tradition of Lyx
 in creating readable, user-friedly and accessible documents.

Yes, some thought has been given to that question. Unfortunately
producing usable output is much harder than would look at first sight
(or that should be); and getting it right for every browser on every
platform is not trivial. Font availability, scaling, etc. all change
when you switch platforms or even browsers. Many popular sites have
given up and just offer different stylesheets depending on the
browser, something which is not an option here.

You can see some examples at:
  http://browsershots.org/http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/math.html
I am using Firefox on Debian, and you can see that it looks great (or
at least I like it). On Windows however Firefox looks quite ugly:
fonts are not pretty. IE 7 is a bit ugly but tolerable.

 Here are some examples for web pages (personal selection):
 * http://www.nvpit.nl/cms/
 * http://robcomm.net/
 * http://www.swaroopch.com/notes/Python

Thanks, those are nice. Unfortunately they are not immediately useful.
For one thing they can be judged on personal opinion and taste. But
the real problem is that they would probably suffer from
cross-platform issues as well. Actually I see the first one with fonts
too small and the second one too large.

 some hints on web typography:
 http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/03/18/10-principles-for-readable-web-typography/
 * http://www.csarven.ca/web-typography

Same problems. But let us see if we can get constructive and get
something out of this discussion.

What we can actually do is: you, or someone else who has taken the
trouble to make the output look good on their favorite platform, can
send me your CSS files (or a patch against mine). Then I can try to
blend those in and still keep the sane look on Debian. Probably we can
find a combination of fonts and sizes that look good on the most
popular platforms. We can do it; we have already got the character set
mostly right thanks to a similar effort by another user. Now is time
for good typography!

Any takers?

Thanks,

Alex.

Re: eLyxer and (web) typography

[Alex Fernandez]

Hi Tim,

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Tim
Michelsen wrote:
> I would like to suggest to edit the standard stylesheet provided by
> http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/lyx.css

The CSS you link is provided as a service to the community; users are
encouraged to change it on their documents with the --css option.

> To my humble opinion, the generated html should follow the tradition of Lyx
> in creating readable, user-friedly and accessible documents.

Yes, some thought has been given to that question. Unfortunately
producing usable output is much harder than would look at first sight
(or that should be); and getting it right for every browser on every
platform is not trivial. Font availability, scaling, etc. all change
when you switch platforms or even browsers. Many popular sites have
given up and just offer different stylesheets depending on the
browser, something which is not an option here.

You can see some examples at:
  http://browsershots.org/http://www.nongnu.org/elyxer/math.html
I am using Firefox on Debian, and you can see that it looks great (or
at least I like it). On Windows however Firefox looks quite ugly:
fonts are not pretty. IE 7 is a bit ugly but tolerable.

> Here are some examples for web pages (personal selection):
> * http://www.nvpit.nl/cms/
> * http://robcomm.net/
> * http://www.swaroopch.com/notes/Python

Thanks, those are nice. Unfortunately they are not immediately useful.
For one thing they can be judged on personal opinion and taste. But
the real problem is that they would probably suffer from
cross-platform issues as well. Actually I see the first one with fonts
too small and the second one too large.

> some hints on web typography:
> http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/03/18/10-principles-for-readable-web-typography/
> * http://www.csarven.ca/web-typography

Same problems. But let us see if we can get constructive and get
something out of this discussion.

What we can actually do is: you, or someone else who has taken the
trouble to make the output look good on their favorite platform, can
send me your CSS files (or a patch against mine). Then I can try to
blend those in and still keep the sane look on Debian. Probably we can
find a combination of fonts and sizes that look good on the most
popular platforms. We can do it; we have already got the character set
mostly right thanks to a similar effort by another user. Now is time
for good typography!

Any takers?

Thanks,

Alex.